Bristol Conference 1977-10 n.t.church Discussion — Stan Ford

So, without establishing a basis of the New Testament Church, there's no need for elders. And that reads through. If either our brother Phillips or myself wish to make a comment, we will. Now, this is a cross between a Bible reading and a panel discussion, and we have some written questions turned in already.

We'll ask for others. There'll be discussion by the panel, and then we'll give opportunity for brethren from the floor to make comments. But we do prefer written questions. If you give us a written question, we can read it up here, and then it can be discussed.

Now, after our brother Ford speaks, then there may be questions in your mind, you know? And if there are, why, Warren Parrish is going to walk around, and he'll have cards, and just raise your hand, write out your question, and there's a salvation to this thing.

You don't need to put your name on it. So, just write out your question. Now, without any further ado, brother Ford. May I take just two or three moments by the way of introduction? All I've ever really known is assembly fellows.

I'd never been to church or chapel or Sunday school in my life until I was a man, and I trusted the Lord. I was saved in a tent mission, and found out that the tent mission was being run by the local gospel hall.

When I went into the gospel hall, I thought all churches were like this. The only thing I couldn't understand was there was no one who trotted around with a clerical collar on, as they do in my country.

I say that because, quite often, I come across men and women who, when speaking of the things of the Lord, and especially of a church principle, they say, well, you were brought up in this. There is a sense in which I have been brought up in it, it's all I've known.

But there is also another sense in which we've had to pay, my wife and myself, a very deep cost for being there. I have two children. When my daughter was 21 years of age, she came and saw me and said, Daddy, we want to get married.

And I thought she was only a girl. And I looked at her and I said, and I didn't know what to say. And what did I say? I didn't want to get rid of her. And I said, well, why do you? And I can see her now with tears welled up in her eyes, and she said, Daddy, I don't think you've got the right to ask me that.

And I didn't know what to say, and I said, of course I have, I'm your daddy. She looked at me and burst into tears, and she said, I've never had it. I've been 32 years in the service of the Lord, and ever since my little girl could almost know, I've hardly ever been home.

My wife and myself have to face the fact that in the service of God, amongst the assemblies of God's folks, in my country especially, there was no chance of just being sent. After about eight, nine years of serving the Lord, I was down in Pembrokeshire, in Wentwell, and I was offered Hill Park Baptist Church, the largest Baptist church in Wentwell.

An independent Baptist church, at least an affiliated Baptist church, and I was offered this church. There were a whole mass of us right then, and I wanted to take it. I wanted to take it because I got fed up of being away from home.

And I said to Mary, Mary, what are we going to do? And she looked at me and she said, Sam, are we where God wants us to be, or are we where we want to be? And we settled down to a month of earnest Bible study as to why I was where I was, and to be perfectly honest, it was the first time I'd ever really done it.

I could have given you all the answers for why I gathered with the people I did gather with, but previously it had not really affected me, and now it did, and we stayed where we were. Now, the thing that punished me forever was the preaching of all beliefs.

This very year, before I came over to America, I faced that same problem. I was invited by the committee in charge of the Penn Hall in Glasgow, the largest gospel mission in Great Britain, to submit my application to be their superintendent.

It didn't take very long for me to write back and thank them for their great service, but to say no. Now, I've taken those two or three moments to say extremely personal things, but I've taken them because I want you to understand that I am not with the people that are known as brethren just because they're a nice people to be with.

I am with them out of real, absolute Bible conviction, and it's a cost upon me to be there. With that in mind, may I please speak of what I believe to be the very broad—there are many other things, as you all well understand—very broad principles of a New Testament Church.

A New Testament Church, not many other churches, but a New Testament Church. Would you turn with me, please, into the great 17th chapter, 16th chapter, rather, of the gospel of Matthew? Matthew chapter 16.

Three things I said the other day, speaking somewhere, I'm not quite sure where, but I said that the 16th chapter of Matthew fits into the 17th chapter, and that is absolutely true, and it is extremely profound.

You see, you cannot get into the 17th chapter and climb the mountains and see the Lord's hand figure until you stay for a while in the 15th chapter. The secrets of the Lord are with those that fear him.

Christ Builds His Church on the Rock

In the 16th chapter of Matthew, the Lord Jesus unfolds three secrets that he has never unfolded before. He unfolds the secret of his church, verse 18. He unfolds the secret of his cross, verse 21, and he unfolds the secret of his coming in the last two verses.

He's never unfolded these things before. And in verse 21, I'm sorry, verse 18, we read, And I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What tremendous words they are. As you know, the Lord is making a play on two, no need to take the baby out, brother, I don't mind a baby crying out. I just think it says amen, no one else does. Don't you?

You bother about the baby now. If you can't manage it, you hand him up, I can preach in here as well. Now I think, please, I think that's essential because the church is a place for the family. Don't forget that.

But he says, Thou art Peter. The Lord is making a play on two Greek words, as you know. He says, Thou art Peter. Thou art Petra, a piece of rock. And then he says, but upon this rock, not Petra, but Petra, upon this mass of rock, I will build my church.

He's not saying he'll build his church on Peter. He's saying he'll build his church on this mass of rock. No need for me to remind you of one Christian's event. The tremendous words of the 11th verse of the 3rd chapter.

Out of foundation no man lay than that which is laid, Christ Jesus. So here you see the very principle of the Christian church. It's based upon the Lord. It's foundation is Christ. So please, this is the church universal, and there's a difference between the church universal and the church local.

The church universal includes every born-again child of God, and I want you to understand that if you love the Lord Jesus, and yet you don't gather just the same as I gather, you are my brother, you are my sister in Christ.

And you are as much in the church as I'm in the church. But I don't think you're in the local church. You see, I believe there is a local expression of a universal church. That local expression. The church at Bethlehem.

The church at Corinth. The church at Philippi. The church at... and of that church there are commandments given which tell us that there are certain people who are not walking orderly who can be put out of fellowship of that church.

But you can't be put out of fellowship of the body of Christ. You can't be put out of fellowship of the universal church if you can't of local church. Now, what are the marks of a local church? I gave a series last week, I told what I thought.

Let me try and change it. Let me say that as I open my Bible and read it and ponder its truth, it seems to me that, first of all, a local church is a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged.

The preeminence of Christ is acknowledged. When I turn to the glorious words of Ephesians 1 and 22, when I go way on to the Colossians and in that 18th verse of the first chapter, I see that Christ is the head of the church.

I see that in this church he will have the preeminence. It's important in this verse to remember the brotherliness of the church. I want to gather in a church where the center, where the gathering point is Jesus Christ.

When I first was converted, I used to hear, it seemed to me, of course it was so, but it seemed to me every time I heard any brethren minister, I used to hear these dear brethren speak of Christ as the one to whom we gather.

I don't often get to hear that. Maybe I ought to say it a little more. But I know of no center where he is the preeminent one. He is the head of the church, and I want to be in a company of folks that does not acknowledge at its head a committee in some far-flung country or far-flung city, but I want to be amongst a company of folks that acknowledges his head, Jesus Christ, right there with them, where two or three are gathered together in my name.

There am I in the midst of it, and I don't gather to the gospel chapel, and I don't gather to the gospel hall, but I gather to Jesus Christ, you, the center of the church, where Christ is the preeminent one.

The Holy Spirit and the Priesthood of Every Believer

But not only where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged, but where the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged. The presidency of the Holy Spirit. You see, I believe there have been great difficulties over the years.

There have been difficulties when the church, historically, had problems concerning God the Father, and then they had problems concerning God the Son. It seems to me they're having problems today concerning God the Holy Spirit.

But when I gather in church capacity, I want to gather where the Spirit of God is at liberty to lay on the heart of any brother in that gathering what he wants me to know. And to the leg of the church, wasn't it a glorious thing, Lord say morning, to be here around the table?

Just to say, oh, if one brother or another, did you not feel it, that the Lord was really leading us? There were none of these brethren who got together before the meeting and sort of said, now, what are you going to say, brother?

I'd like to follow that. But not only in the morning meeting, the presidency of the Holy Spirit in the whole affair of the church. But then I believe a local church is not only a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged, and where the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged, but where the priesthood of every believer is acknowledged.

And this, to me, is the dear, dear truth. The priesthood of every believer. And, brethren, sisters, it may open up discussion later on, but don't let us forget this, that you, sisters, the holy priests, as well as these brethren, may be called as Old Testament priests were to different offices, but is it wonderful that I don't need a man to stand between me and God?

Is it wonderful to know this, that every believer is a priest when Peter writes his lovely letter, you remember? He says, speaking of Peter, our apostle, he doesn't say, we are a holy priesthood. He says, ye are a holy priesthood.

Ye are. I want to acknowledge the priesthood of every believer. And I want to say something to you, brethren. Go on, have a go at you. I want to say something. Don't you sell your priesthood. I don't mean sell it, allowing someone else to do it, but sell it by not using it.

Sometimes I'm amazed. A hymn book's a lovely thing, but this isn't one, but a hymn book's a lovely thing. Don't you forget this, that God's more concerned with the praise that springs from your heart, your audible prayer, than he is even of a hymn that's been written years ago.

And I find over here that you come to your chapels with two books, a little black one and a big black one. You use your little black one more than you do your big black one. Oh, I got that in, didn't I?

The priesthood of every believer. I believe the local church is not only a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged, the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged, where the priesthood of every believer is acknowledged, but where the principle of separation is acknowledged.

The principle of separation is acknowledged. When people have only one notch, they turn to God. What can I say of the tremendous words of 2 Corinthians 16 -17, coming out from the monument in the east end?

I believe that a local church is a place where the principle of separation is acknowledged, where the prominence of the scriptures is acknowledged, where what we do is not what is experienced, but what faith describes.

And then, like the wall, I believe that a local church is a place where the position of elders is only half the trick. Your appreciators will address on their own, and a weaker will address. Weaker. But, brethren, these are the things I believe, that I want to hold on to.

These are the things that is part of my life, and I'm not going to give them for anything. I believe they're precious, so I'd give them a deep appreciation. If I took longer than I should, I'm not a good speaker.

What you have said, Brother Ford, is not only what you believe, it's what the Word of God teaches. My experience will be very brief, as I make a comment that's a little bit different from yours. Someone asked a young man, I'm in the same position, how long he was associated with the assemblies, and I have to give the same answer.

Nine months before I was born. My mother and father were in the assemblies before me, my wife's people, so we were brought up there, and I've had people talk it back to me, well, you're where you are because you were born there and you're brought up in that.

No. About the age of 17 and a half, I was advised to leave home and board away from home. God rooted me and grounded me in these things because of godly elders, and I can still remember them. I'll just give you one little experience.

I remember at the age of about 18, going to the table, in those days we went to the table, and gave thanks for the emblems, and a dear brother, a nice little white goatee, came and put his arm around me after, and tears streaming down his face.

This is what he said, and there were words of encouragement. Brother Fred, I'm sure you're the brother that Lord wanted at the table this morning.

That's the kind of elder he was. He put his arm around someone and encouraged them and helped them.

There's one church that I would like to have been in, and it isn't Queensborough, it isn't Durham, it isn't Kenilworth. I would like to have been in the church in Antioch. The Holy Ghost said. I'd like to be in a church where the Holy Ghost is free to speak.

Speak to his people from his word, whether it's from elders or someone else. Now, I don't know whether you'd like to make a brief comment, or whether you want to pass. What shall the man say that comes after the king?

There's the king. I'm only the president. There's the king. Well, Brother Fred, like yourself, I was brought up in the assemblies. I was carried there as a baby, and as far as the Ecclesiastical Fellowship is concerned, it's the only thing I've ever known.

But I have been in a broader communion, in a sense, for 11 years. I was on the staff of the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and there we were joined together in gospel fellowship with the whole spectrum of the Christian church.

But that's the church universal. That is the expression of the oneness of the body. As far as the local fellowship is concerned, it is my firm belief that it's the local assembly that gives the best expression to a New Testament fellowship.

In just carrying what Brother Sam said one step further, in chapter 16 of Matthew, we have the very first mention of the church in the New Testament. And it's mentioned, of course, by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

It's the church universal. And then you have that experience on the mount. But in the next chapter, in chapter 18, you've got the second mention of the church in the New Testament. And that also is the Lord's revelation of the church.

And in Matthew chapter 18, you don't have the universal church. You have the local church. There are three things in that chapter which are of some interest in connection with this second mention of the church.

In the opening verses, verses 1 to 10, we have the reception of the believer. Except he be converted and become as little children, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoso shall receive one such little child in my name, receive it me.

That's the first great truth connected with the local assembly, is the reception of the believer. Then in verses 11 through 14, you have the restoration of the backslider. The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost.

How think ye if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone as trash? Then the rest of the chapter, from verse 15, you have the reconciliation of brethren. Thy brethren shall trespass against thee, and so on.

It's in this immediate context that the Lord gives us the second great reference to the church. Matthew chapter 16 is expounded in the epistles of the Ephesians, and Matthew chapter 18 is expounded in the first epistle to the Corinthians.

We have the universal church, and the local church, and of course it's with the local church that Brother Stanton has intimated that we're concerned this afternoon. We do have certain gifts doing up that the risen head gave, and when he ascended on high, he gave, and I heard someone say he gave gifts to the church.

That's what one of the religious groups says. He gave gifts to the men for the blessing of the church. There are the evangelists, and there are the pastors, and there are the teachers, but there are the elders.

Elders as Overseers in the Local Assembly

Now, are they a distinct company, or are they just not known at all? Were they a distinct company in apostolic days and in the early church? Could you tell who they were? They'll be timid. Oh, Acts 20 is quite clear about that, isn't it?

...over whom the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers. Remember that the apostle had come to Miletus, and he sent to the elders of the church in Ephesus. He knew where they were. They knew who they were.

He sent for them, and they paid the fee. You'll remember, of course, that when they made the collection for the saints, they sent it to the elders, to Jerusalem. They knew who they were. They knew where they were.

They sent them money. They received it. Or, there's a definite acknowledgement of who elders were. In addressing the church at Philippi, he addressed them including those who were the bishops, or who are the elders.

Now... Maybe we ought not to pass the usual comment about that, don't we, Mr. Grant? Yes. Go ahead. Do let us remember that the word bishop and elder are the same word. And when the apostle writes to the church at Philippi, he writes to the elders.

Plural, not one bishop over many churches, but many bishops in one church. It's a very simple principle, but it's a tremendous principle. Many, many, please. Many bishops in one church, not one bishop over many churches.

Have you heard of it? Now, what is one of the subjects we want to discuss this afternoon? What is the work of an elder? A number of facets to his work. Does that come first, Grant, or the character and the qualifications of an elder?

We were pulling a switch this week, and we should have told you. Last week, just to make it different because I'm right here, last week we did take that up first. And we thought today we would take this up and then come back to it with your qualifications.

John, that little outline you've got on a bishop in your book, I'm not selling the thing, but that little outline you've got on Titus is one of the nicest I've seen. Does anybody have a copy of Exploring the Scriptures here?

Now, is there a commercial you're using? They're in the book. I know him well enough. But is this your, please, maybe you ought to share that for us. I don't carry it around in my head. Have you forgotten what you wrote?

Well, there we are. That's one of the best. John wrote on Titus, a little outline on a bishop. Go ahead, brother. I don't mind if you preach my outline. That one I always do. Maybe we ought to turn to Titus, did we?

You don't carry all these outlines? No, but the first thing I've got to do is find Titus. He's jumped out of my Bible. It's on page 1 ,283. Ah, it's 1 ,167. When speaking of an elder, the apostle says a number of things.

He's jumped out of my Bible. Yes, I'm looking in chapter 2. No wonder I couldn't find it. I'm looking in chapter 2. You don't do things like that, do you? You don't do things like that. First chapter, if you please.

He says, For this cause I left thee in Crete that thou shouldst set in order things that are wanting, and ordain all elders in every city as I had appointed thee. If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of quiet or unruly, for a bishop, an elder must be blameless, as the steward of God, not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy-tempered, holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by found doctrine both to exalt and to convince the game-players.

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision. I think you pointed out, John, that first of all he had to be a faithful man, he had to be a family man, he had to be a faithful man, a family man.

Go on. What did you have for fellowship in the house? You buy the book. That's the idea. I can't remember, sir. It's a long time since I looked at that. Well, let's take the work of the elder. You just read there that he must be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and convince the game-player, and in writing to Timothy, he said he must be apt to teach.

Now, where is the elder's sphere of ministry in connection with his teaching, in connection with his exhorting? Is it public? Is it private? Is it both? Where is it? Before you answer, there's a tremendous need today for the instruction of the people of God and the word of God, and you cannot leave it to Philipson Ford and Morgan and the rest of them.

It's got to be done on the local level, and it hasn't been done on the local level. Now, do you care to expound a little the sphere of the elder's work? He'll have to be apt to teach. He can't express strong enough that if experience goes for anything, and I think he does a little, that this does not necessarily mean apt to preach.

I come across quite a number of folk who imagine that because a person is an elder, therefore he's got to preach. Now, this is not so, but he's got to be able to teach. He's got to be able to go into a home and speak with those that come to him, and explain to them the word of God.

Now, I come across a number of people in the course of my travel who are wonderful elders. They're very apt to teach, but they're not apt to preach. So, I think the purpose here of the work of an elder is that he must be a man who is able in the assembly fellowship to teach the people in that fellowship the word of God.

That's the purpose. Instead of preaching and admonishing, we get rid of admonishing here. There is a difference. Instead of teaching, setting forth the positive truth of the word of God, error comes in, or people get out of line as far as their conduct, and they must be admonished, they must be warned.

And maybe most of you aren't aware of it, but today in evangelical circles, as well as in the assemblies, there are truths creeping in. You may say, well, he means charismatic. Well, that's only part of it.

That's only part of it. But there are things in connection with the person of Christ, the work of Christ, right down the line. And I think we need more and more good, solid teaching from the word of God, so that when someone comes along...

Now, there was an article written not too long ago, and I won't tell you where it was, but it was all wrong, from this particular magazine, one of our magazines. And a young man that had only been saved two years came one night for a little Bible study and said, there's something in here.

Now, don't tell me that a babe in Christ can't be protected if he reads his Bible. God will protect him. And that's on the spot of this, and he was absolutely right. Things said about the person of Christ were dead wrong.

He said, this can't be right, and he was right. Now, there's a great need to instruct, and there's a great need to warn. Don't always be taken up by all the heresies and the cults and all the rest. You'll never have time for the truth of God.

But I think there's a great ministry that's needed here. A brother came into our assembly and made this statement, a brother from the mission field. We won't identify him. And he said this, from that time forth, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must be crucified.

It was then that he became aware of the fact that he was to die on the cross. You can't have that. And I'm glad that the elder stepped in. And you must step in. Any word from you, brethren, on this teaching and admonishing?

Any further words? It presupposes a thorough knowledge of the Bible, Jesus. And amongst us today, there are an increasingly few men with a thorough knowledge of the Bible. You don't get a thorough knowledge of the Bible by all of a sudden, when you retire from business, deciding you're going to get it.

I remember years ago, Brother R .J. Little, he was in fellowship in the Chicago Assembly. He was the radio pastor of Moody Bible Institute for many, many years. I heard him say on one occasion to a brother who said to him, I wish I had your knowledge of the Word.

He looked at him and he said, you're too late. He said, you'll never have my knowledge of the Word of God. Sir, he said, if you wanted my knowledge of the Word of God, you should have started twenty years ago.

But it's never too late to start. And if we want to be able to admonish and to deal with error and to teach people the truth of the Word of God, we've got to know it ourselves. And that takes time. And it takes time consistently spent in the Bible over a long period of time.

And it's certainly a goal that we should all be going in for. It's one of the basic works of an elder is to be able to take the book and expound it. Somebody comes to us and says, a Mormon was at my house this afternoon, and he said this and this and this.

Are we able to give an answer? We should be. If you have any comment, if you'll raise your hand, or questions, we'll try and answer it as we go along. Brother Ford, in Hebrews 13, it says that they are to have the rule.

Does that mean dictation? Oh, an elder is not a dictator. He rules his own house, takes care of the church, the Bible says, takes care. But God has set men over us, and we accept the deliberation of those—not in the singular, but in the plural—of those that he has set over.

In many things, if experience goes anywhere, in many things I have found this, that when elders sit down to deliberate on a particular matter, they have before them the entire story. Normally speaking, when a matter arises, it's only one side that one person hears.

But the elders sit down, and they have the whole story, and the care and the fellowship of the church of God that we have indeed. Younger men have to submit themselves to those that are older, and to the elders of the church.

And I think that this is a correct procedure, and a right procedure, and a procedure that we don't teach enough, and we don't practice enough. But it's not a dictator in the church, one man. This is why God has set elders, not an elder.

This is why it's in the plural, not in the singular. Isn't the great thought behind being an elder the thought of being a shepherd? And it's interesting that God's kings in the Old Testament were shepherd kings.

God's ideal king was David. His ideal ruler was a man like David. And again and again, the various kings in the history of the Old Testament are compared with the gold standard. It says he did this as did David his father, or not as David did.

David had set up the standard of God's ideal king, and David was a shepherd. The difference between David and King Saul, King Saul looked after his father's asses, and he couldn't even look after them.

He lost them when he was first introduced. He can't even find them. That's the heart of Saul. You drive an ass, but you lead a sheep. And it came out in Saul's character as a king, and in David's character as a king.

David was a shepherd. And that's what God's thought is behind rule, whether it's in the kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament, or in the local church in the New Testament, the idea of being a shepherd.

And if we would get into our Bibles and find out something of shepherding, then we would have the whole idea of being an elder. It means having a heart for the flock. It means being ready to stand between the flock and the wolf.

It means spending many a sleepless night out on the hills somewhere looking after one that's gone astray. Being a shepherd is being an elder. I think that 17th verse of the 13th chapter says, Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves, for they watch for your souls, as they must give an attempt, that they may do it with joy and not with grief, for that is uncomfortable for you.

So you see, it's not ruling from the sense of a dictator, but watching for them, and caring. We had a good brother came to our fellowship and gave a series of slides on the trip that he'd made to Palestine.

And I never forget one little story he told. You may have heard others tell it, but I heard him tell it. But as they were going along, they saw a flock of sheep being driven. And he goes to the man, and he speaks to him, and he said, I always was told that the shepherd lead the sheep in Palestine.

And the man looked at him and said, yes, but I'm not the shepherd, I'm the sporter man. There's the difference. One was driving, and he was driving those sporter hens. The shepherd was leading, and he was leading the pasture.

In connection with what our brother Phillips has said, and as to David, a very sweet comment I read in connection with David is really in connection with Samuel. Samuel had a great ministry, did he not?

And Samuel's ministry, Samuel's greatest ministry, I believe, is a ministry, one of the ministries of an elder. Someone said that Samuel's greatest ministry was to introduce to the nation the man who, after God's own heart.

And an elder has that type of ministry. It's the ministry of Christ, the person of Christ, the work of Christ. This is what fills up God's people. You made a comment about the elders meeting together, Brother Ford.

Elders’ Collective Responsibility and Discipline

Question handed here, should the elders meet together, or should they carry on their work individually? I know it answers itself, but here's the next question. It's been asked two or three times on the ground.

If one of a group of elders is not doing any of the work of an elder, what should be the attitude and action, if any, on the part of the other elders? Shall I read it again? This was asked last week, and again this week.

If one of the group of elders is not doing any of the work of an elder, what should be the attitude and action, if any, on the part of the other elders? And this is a serious thing. It is true that there are men that have been listed as elders, shall we say.