Spiritual Gifts, Tongues – What Does The Bible Say — Shane Idleman

Desiring the Gifts of the Holy Spirit

I've been praying that God would show us what he wants to show us, because going through this message on spiritual gifts, in case you haven't been coming, we've been talking about spiritual gifts, a gift of healing, gift of prophecy, word of wisdom, and tonight we actually find ourselves on this gift of tongues that is in the Bible.

And we all know what people think of this, don't we? Those weird charismatics, and that's not for today, and different things. And I'm just hoping somehow it can penetrate us at a deep level and we can leave here with just a deeper appreciation for the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And maybe even, are you ready for this? Ask for the Holy Spirit to give us gifts, to give us a gift of wisdom, or discernment, or understanding, or this gift, or different gifts. I just don't find in the Bible where the gifts that we find in 1 Corinthians 14 are over, have ceased.

We just, we don't see that. I can't personally come up with that. So the message tonight is tongues. What does the Bible say? What does the Bible say about the gift of tongues? And you could spend a couple hours on this, if not more.

But what I decide to do is let the Bible speak for itself. And I think a lot of people will be watching this later, wanting clarification on this gift of the Holy Spirit. What does it mean? There's opinions out there.

People would say it's of the devil today, right? If somebody just speaks an unknown language, it's of the devil. Other people say it's very vital to the Christian experience. But what does the Bible say?

I think that's a good place to start, right? So here's what you have to keep in mind. 1 Corinthians 14, if you wanna follow along, we'll have it up on the screen as well. 1 Corinthians 14, here's what you have to ask yourself.

Does this whole chapter not apply anymore? Because basically that's what we're saying, right? When we say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer valid, is that we don't need this chapter. But Paul seems to think that we do.

And also, living children need rules. You've heard me talk about that before. If a child is living, they need rules. Paul would also give rules or boundaries to the early church in which to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues, Prophecy, and Edification

1 Corinthians 14, Paul says pursue love and desire spiritual gifts. So we see right there that our goal is love. And that doesn't come naturally, does it? Does it come naturally for you or does it come supernaturally?

We have to desire, we have to pursue love. That has to be the goal of our lives. And then we have to desire spiritual gifts. What are spiritual gifts? Well, it's everything we talked about so far. So Paul says, and I believe that it's for today, that you should desire spiritual gifts.

Do you desire that this evening? I don't know, are you apprehensive? Are you nervous, are you uncertain? I would just encourage you to desire whatever God has for you. But Paul says, but especially that you may prophesy.

We talked about that two weeks ago. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the spirit, he speaks mysteries. So regardless of where your thought is on this, what Paul is talking about is that when a person spoke in tongues, when Paul spoke in tongues, it wasn't a message from God to men.

That's why you'll often hear maybe in the past some churches where somebody would speak in tongues, someone would have an interpreter. Well, it would be a message to people. And sometimes that's the case, I guess.

But what we see here is that tongues is not speaking to men, but it's speaking to God. No one speaking in tongues, it's not clear to men. So verse three. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

So he's laying out two different gifts here. The gift of tongues, which man does not understand, or the gift of prophecy, which is speaking God's word boldly, truthfully. Sometimes the Holy Spirit brings something to mind that somebody needs to speak to somebody else that edifies, that builds you up.

So if Paul was here speaking in tongues, it wouldn't edify you, would it? Not a bit, according to Paul. But if Paul were to prophesy, speak God's word, it would benefit you. And then he goes on to say, he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

So what do we get from this? First, we see that you should desire the gifts and that tongues is speaking to God. Now this is interesting that many people don't note, especially those who say that tongues aren't for today because we don't need them.

Paul says it edifies the believer. Edifies means it builds up and encourages the believer. The reason is, we'll get to this in a minute, the Holy Spirit is speaking, that's what tongues is, the Holy Spirit is speaking through a person to God and the person is built up and edified because of it.

So the question is, do we still need this today? That's up to you. No, we don't, or yes, we do. I would lean towards the yes, we do side of that. I need to be built up by the Holy Spirit. I need to be encouraged by the Holy Spirit.

Prophecy as a Gift for the Church

So Paul says in verse five, I wish that you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied, for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues. Now that's good to note because many times Pentecostal charismatic churches think somebody is really spiritual if they speak in tongues.

Paul says it's actually not the case, that prophecy is greater, why? Because you bless other people by it. Tongues is one of the only gifts that really the believer is being edified themselves. It's really a gift for them to be edified and then go and build up others, edify others.

For he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets that the church may receive edification. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation or by knowledge or by prophecy or by teaching?

So again, Paul is clarifying here. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but I wish more that you would prophesy, why? Because that's more beneficial. It's more beneficial to speak from God's word and to build up and to encourage.

That's why it's greater. Tongues is no benefit other than to the person who is doing it, or if there's interpretation. In other words, you have to know that a person has been gifted with the gift of interpretation to interpret what is going on when a person speaks in tongues.

Now, I will just let you off the hook to let you know that this is kind of odd for me as well to read this because it's an odd thing. It's not normal. It's not the normative. Tongues is an odd thing. It doesn't discredit it, though.

It just means that it's odd. It's like, oh, wow, I don't know. Now, here's what's interesting. If you've experienced this before, it's not odd. If you've experienced this, you know it lines up with Scripture.

It's very edifying. It's very beneficial, but if you haven't, that's where sometimes a person can think it's odd, and they can think that, well, I don't know. That seems a little weird because I haven't experienced it, but if you experience it, then you understand what Paul is saying, and it becomes very beneficial to you.

So Paul desired that all people speak with tongues. It's a good gift, and it's not the greatest gift, especially if it's not understood. In other words, there's no benefit. So that's the context Paul is setting up here.

It's not a benefit to other people if it doesn't relate to them, if they can't understand it. Then he goes on in verse seven. Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sound, how will it be known what is piped in or played?

In other words, I was gonna have Brant do it, but I won't bother having him come up, but if he just hit a few chords on the piano, it wouldn't sound that great, right? It's like, oh, that's not in harmony.

I don't know. Or if I just come up and blow a flute. Do you blow flutes? Or play flutes? Blow a horn, trumpet, right? If I just, you would close your ears. That doesn't sound good. Don't do that to me, because that's what he's saying here.

Even the flute or harp, when they make a sound, they have to make a sound that is unified, that is beautiful, that is good for the hearer. So with tongues, if a person doesn't understand it, it's gonna sound like me playing the flute, or the drums, or the piano.

You wouldn't want to hear that. It's not gonna benefit you at all. So see, that's what happens when somebody speaks in tongues in church, and it's out of order, it's not in harmony with, and it rubs people the wrong way.

It doesn't edify, it doesn't build up. And people often say, well, I just couldn't control myself. Well, the fruit of the Spirit is self-control. And I believe that the gift can be exercised under self-control.

I don't believe a person says, well, I just lost myself. I was just so full of the Holy Spirit, I know I disrupted the whole service, but I don't know, I don't get that in here in the reading of Scripture.

Understandable Speech and the Edification of the Church

So Paul goes on to say, verse nine, so likewise you, unless you utter by tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. That's why I said harmony is key.

Also, it benefits others when it's understood. And then we're gonna switch to verse 10. Again, I'm just going through the Bible. We're trying to get through 1 Corinthians 14. There's a lot here, but I think Paul's making case for tongues.

Verse 10, there are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

Even so, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. So basically he's saying, does it edify? Does it build up? If what are we doing, what are we doing to the church?

Does it edify, does it build up the church? Then verse 13, therefore, let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Is that interesting? So Paul says, if he prays in a tongue, the spirit is praying. The Holy Spirit is praying. Can you imagine that? I don't know about you, but that's who I want praying. I want the Holy Spirit praying for my life, praying for my family, praying for my kids.

And some people link this up with Romans when Paul says, we don't know what to pray for, but the spirit prays for us with groaning so deep that cannot be uttered. Now that might not be in relation to tongues.

We don't know exactly. It could just be the Holy Spirit is groaning for righteousness, is groaning for holiness, is groaning for joy, and is groaning for these things. But we see here that the Holy Spirit is praying for a believer when he is exercising or she is exercising the gift of tongues.

So he says, my understanding is unfruitful. In other words, I don't understand what I'm praying for. That's why it's weird to many people. So when people pray in tongues, their understanding is, I don't know what I'm praying for.

My natural man doesn't understand it. But the spiritual side is being built up and being encouraged. Verse 15. Oh no, yeah, verse 15. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with understanding.

So he's saying, I will pray in tongues. I will also pray in the normal prayer of understanding that I know what I'm saying. I will pray in both of those areas. Also, I will sing in the spirit and I will also sing in understanding.

So he's encouraging singing in the Holy Spirit and then singing normally. Now again, if you haven't experienced it, it doesn't make sense. If you have, it makes perfect sense. So I would encourage you to pray to God and say, Lord, I want all that you have for me.

I want to experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And let me, I should probably interject here. This can be beneficial for other, for believers or unbelievers. If God prompts somebody, there are testimonies where people have spoken in tongues and the person understood that language and was built up, was encouraged.

They were convicted. They heard their own language, the glories of God and of Jesus Christ, like we see in the book of Acts, that they're all filled with the Holy Spirit and they were speaking in tongues and the people understood.

So that does happen. I don't believe that tongues is always just to be silent in your own prayer time. There are times where you can utilize that gift and God will bless that gift. And then verse 16, otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say amen at your giving of thanks?

In other words, if I say something you don't understand, you're not gonna say, amen, brother. You're gonna be like, what? What did he say? But if I, that's why he's saying about tongues, putting them in the proper context and not being out of order.

For indeed, you give thanks well, but the other is not edified. Again, it's all about edification. That's why there's churches where tongues just go crazy and not everybody's edified. They're not built up.

It goes against order sometimes. So the key from here is to pray for interpretation. Pray for interpretation. My personal belief is that tongues is a different language that can be used to witness to others like an ax, but it also can be used to edify us because it's the spirit praying through us.

So that's my personal belief. I believe that tongues, when a person speaks in tongues, it is a known language somewhere. I don't know if it's an angelic language that, you know, some language of the angels.

I believe it's a language known somewhere that the Holy Spirit gives a believer for the book of Acts as an example, as a testimony, but it's also for edification. I don't think anybody can take away from this that it's not edifying according to Paul, correct?

Interpretation, Order, and Public Worship

We just opened with edification. It was edification throughout. Now he's saying here that the Holy Spirit, that would get me a little motivated about wanting this gift. Holy Spirit, would you, you'll pray for me?

Because what happens is it's not like you just give up your mind, you give up your, the Holy Spirit, it begins to, when you give over to this gift, you're speaking, the Holy Spirit is prompting you, the Holy Spirit, it's a language you don't understand, so it's kind of like you're just, you're the vessel being used by the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit.

Now it is a controversial topic because there have been people who have left this church because of this view, and there will be people who leave this church again because of this view, but if you can give me a good case why this is not for today, I will listen, but I'll tell you up front, I've heard them all.

One of them is found in 1 Corinthians, actually before this, where Paul says, when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away with. Love will never cease, but tongues will cease and prophecy will cease.

The problem is, I don't believe that which is perfect has came yet. He's still on his way here. Even John Calvin said that in his commentaries, as do many other commentators. They will also say that the revelatory gifts, that the church doesn't need those anymore because we have the Bible now.

Well, just go on the mission field for a week and you'll quickly realize that we still need the power of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating through believers. So I just can't find where that vanished once we had the Bible.

Now the Bible is, nothing supersedes the Bible. That is our plumb line, that is our definition of truth, that is our set of plans. We go by that and that alone. But other things, the gift of prophecy is supplemental.

The gift of tongues is supplemental. The gift of, all the other gifts we talked about are supplemental. They come in and they complement each other. For example, remember I talked about prophecy. If God gives somebody a prophetic word or he gives them a word to tell somebody, it has to line up with Scripture, does it not?

It has to, okay, this is confirmed by Scripture. This is confirmed by what I'm already sensing in my spirit. A word of wisdom, he gives somebody a word of wisdom. Hey, this has been on my heart. You might not wanna get on that plane.

Right, where does it line up with Scripture? Well, kind of. I mean, if you're sensing something. So I think the Holy Spirit directs us through these supplemental gifts. In my life, I've noticed that the gifts such as the word of wisdom or the prophetic word or different things, they never supersede Scripture.

They always come underneath the Scriptural authority. They never tell you to do something that the Bible condemns. It always lines up. And as I've said before, sometimes we need direction that the Holy Spirit, I mean, that the Bible doesn't always give us answers for.

Remember I talked about when I felt God was calling me to be a pastor. It didn't say in John 3, 18, oh, become a pastor at the age of 40. Oh, that's when. But I believe certain Scriptures will speak to you.

They will come alive. They will jump out. They will resonate with you. When you read that, you say amen, and you take that to the bank. You say, God, I'm gonna hold you to that promise. I believe that is for me.

So I believe it can still speak to us today. So I believe all these gifts are supplementary to what the Bible teaches us as well. So it's a spirit praying. Paul says, I will do both. I will speak in tongues, and I will pray normal prayers.

I will sing in the Spirit, and I also will sing in understanding. He, again, reinforces the need for people to understand what is taking place. And then he moves right into verse 18. I thank my God that I speak with tongues more than you all.

Paul's Personal Practice and the Priority of Teaching

And I often wonder, would people who think that tongues aren't for today, would they be embarrassed about Paul? Would they wanna be friends with Paul? Oh, that tongue talker Paul. He speaks in tongues.

Oh, that Paul, that poor guy. Hopefully he gets really spiritual at some point and doesn't have to rely on this. I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all. So Paul was given this incredible gift to speak in tongues.

He met the risen Lord on the road to Damascus. He fasted for three days. This man prayed for him. I believe it was Ananias prayed for him. And he was filled with the Spirit. I believe he was given this gift at that point.

He was able to just begin praising God. And if you've experienced this before, you know if you haven't, it's a time where you're praising God, you're worshiping God, and worship is coming alive, and you're just speaking and praising the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, even though your mind, the natural man, doesn't understand what is happening.

It's something that is God-given. Yet in the church, Paul said, yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding that I may teach others than 10 ,000 words in a tongue. So I don't know what some of these churches do that just tongues all the time, it's out of order, it doesn't make sense.

Paul is being crystal clear. I'd rather speak just five words than 10 ,000 in a tongue, why? Because it doesn't build up others. Brethren, do not be like children in understanding. He actually says, do be like children.

I'm sorry, do not be like children in understanding. My eyes are playing tricks on me. So he's saying, understand, understand what I'm saying to you. However, in malice, which is being mean, be babes, don't be mean, don't lash out.

But in understanding, be mature. And then verse 21, in the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips, I will speak to this people. Here's another verse that churches use that say the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased because it was just a sign gift for a sign at a certain time.

Well, let's read it. With men of other tongues and other lips, I will speak to this people, and yet for all that, they will not hear me, says the Lord. Therefore, tongues are for a sign. In this case, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers.

But prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe. So it's almost like he switches gears, but he really doesn't. He's saying that prophecy benefits believers. When you're speaking God's word, it benefits those who are believers.

But tongues can be a sign to unbelievers, just like we saw in the book of Acts. Now, this scripture in context, Paul is talking about the nation of Israel being judged by foreign invaders who did not speak Hebrew.

They spoke in another language that the Jews did not understand, and they were judged by a nation speaking of other tongues. So to me, this scripture doesn't have anything to do in context with this gift not being available anymore.

Tongues and Prophecy in the Gathered Church

And then verse 23. Therefore, if the whole church comes together in one place and all speak with tongues, and there comes into the room someone who is uninformed or an unbeliever, they will say, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

Wow, that's pretty clear. So Paul's saying, when you come together, don't do this, don't speak in tongues, because an unbeliever or someone who's uninformed is what? They're going to think that you are out of your mind, and that's exactly what is giving this gift a bad name.

This is exactly why tongues has a bad name, because they're just crazy, they're just out of their mind. However, he will go on to say if there's an interpreter, if somebody's there that can interpret, then it can be allowed, and we'll read that in a minute.

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all, and he is convinced by all, and thus, the secrets of his heart are revealed. And so falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

So he's saying if an unbeliever is here, and the preaching of God's word goes out, it convicts the person, and they come to know the Lord, and they say, truly, God is in this place. But had I just, you know, let me speak Spanish.

Padre Nuestro, de casa en cielo, santificado sea tu hombre, venga en nuestro reino, hágase tu voluntad, hacia en la tetera, como en cielo, pena nuestro, de cada día, de nosotros, perdonanos, nos estrenes, en el nombre del Padre, del Hijo, del Espíritu Santo.

Right, see, now you know what it is. But see, you're just, what was that all about? What was that? You see, no benefit. This guy's out of his mind. Tortugas, turtles. Mis padres son las tortugas, y nadar muy bueno.

My parents are turtles, and they swim very well. See, it wouldn't work. Same thing with tongues. It's the same thing, and it happens. You have to understand. Oh, gosh, where did that come from? But that's what he's saying.

Let's get back on track, you guys. You got me off track here. So that's what Paul's saying. He's saying that it must be done in decency, and in order, and consider the atmosphere of what's going on. I think that's important, too, to know the atmosphere, to gauge what God is doing.

We've actually had, I think it was one or two couples left, a Bible study, because the lady prayed in tongues, and they weren't comfortable with that. There was no interpretation. And they're like, what is that, Shane?

And they felt uncomfortable with that. So you have to gauge your atmosphere. And I believe that done decently in order is a good goal. Paul is passionate about order and impression. Why, because I think we should give people a good impression of the gospel.

You give people a good impression of what a Christ follower looks like. A good name is to be chosen above good riches, and our character, how we treat people. And then verse 26, how is it then, brethren, Paul says, whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, and has a revelation, you have an interpretation as well.

Let all things be done for edification. So it looks like the church is coming together, everyone has a psalm, everyone wants to teach, everyone wants to speak in tongues, everyone has a prophetic word, everyone wants to interpret, and it's just this chaotic environment, at least what I'm getting from it.

So Paul said, no, let all things be done for edification. To build people up, if anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two, or at the most, three, and each in a turn, and let one interpret what is being said.

But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God. The important thing about interpretation is this. This is why tongues could be good if there was an interpretation, because if I say, Padre Nuestro, Dei Casta in Cielo, Santificato Seatumbre Venga Nostraeno, the interpreters say, our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, and they'll quote the Lord's prayer, and the people say, ah, oh, that pierces my heart, because you're interpreting what is being said.

That's why the interpretation is so important. Without that, it's confusion, it's chaos, it's disorder, it doesn't make sense. So he said that, but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

So if someone is speaking in tongues, let them speak to themselves and to God. So I guess tongues, in this case, could be a message. You know, God, if there's an interpreter, the person speaking in tongues could really speak to that person there, but again, it's done decently and in order.

Testing Prophecy and Submitting to Scripture

And then he says, let two or three prophets speak. Oh, Lord. Where are we going with this one? See, in a healthy church, you can have people that operate in the gifts of prophetic wisdom, knowledge. Agapis spoke to Paul and gave him a prophetic word, and this can go back and forth.

People are divided on this. Someone with a prophetic gifting, God can be speaking to them, and Paul said, then let others judge. Let two or three people speak and let others judge. Now, the question might come up, why don't we do this more often?

Well, you can do it in smaller settings. I believe that these were house churches. I believe these were small gatherings of the eight, nine, 10, 12, 15, 20 people. They knew each other, and they would allow people to speak prophetically into the lives of that congregation.

So he said, only let two or three speak and others judge, but if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. So in other words, if someone's gonna speak, but God reveals something to somebody, let that person speak and not the other person who was going to speak for God.

I know it can get, this honestly would take like an hour on each section to break it down the right way and to give you an illustration of what's happening. Basically, you would have three people who were gifted in this area, and this person was gonna give a gift or give a word that he felt was from the Lord, but this other person has, Shane, I feel this is impressed on my heart.

I feel that God wants to give this to the people. So the person next to them would just be quiet because this person now, God is infusing them, energizing them with a prophetic word that's for that group right then.

So that way they didn't break the two or three rule criteria there. He would allow someone else to speak prophetically. And that might be as simple as, I believe that God is wanting us to repent tonight and I believe there's sin in this camp and we've got to repent, we've got to get right with God, and he's speaking prophetically to the group of people.

It's gonna minister to them. So even here we see that the words are to be judged. Verse 30, but if anything is revealed, and the other sits by, let the first keep silent. Verse 31, for who can all prophesy one by one?

For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. It means whatever a person says, that is subject to the word of God.

That is subject to mature believers. So if somebody says something, you are able to judge that. You know those people who say, don't touch God's anointed, don't challenge me, I'm God's man, thus sayeth the Lord.

No, no, no, you have to come under, your words have to come under the spirit of the prophets, meaning it comes under God's word. If there's three or four mature believers saying, ah, that doesn't sound right, your word does not go forth because you're not coming underneath that.

And it's happened before. People have said something, and we say, no, that doesn't sound right. We don't agree with that. That's not good. You have to come underneath the subject, you're subject under the leadership of church, under the leadership of mature believers.

So if all of you, let's say at a private Bible study, there's eight of you, and somebody says something, what they say has to come under the authority and covering of that Bible study group, of the mature believers there.

If other believers are saying, ah, you know what, I don't think we can, that's edifying for the group. I don't think that is God's heart. You can be challenged in that area, because your word has to have some type of siphon, some type of filter.

You can't just be God's chosen man or God's chosen woman and nobody can challenge you. You have to sit underneath the authority of others. For example, what I'm saying on Sunday mornings, and even now, has to come under authority, doesn't it?

If all the elders afterwards come and say, Shane, that was not, that's not gonna fly. What you said is not biblical. Then my words have to come underneath that. But, you know, what you just said is not biblical.

I have to, let me give you an example. I have to teach on a very hard topic Sunday. It's on hell, because it's where we find ourselves in systematic theology. And it's been a very tough week thinking about it, because we don't like that concept, do we?

It doesn't make a lot of sense, eternally, separated from God, punishment and different things. And if I were to come up and say, you know what? I believe the spirit of God has revealed to me that we've got this area wrong.

There is no hell. I'm God's man. We've misread a lot of the scriptures. Those words have to come underneath the church leadership, and those words would have to be tossed out and rebuked. So see, there's accountability, there's mutual accountability and that actually did happen.

You can watch the movie on Netflix. I usually don't promote movies, but it's called, I think, Come Sunday. About a pastor in the Pentecostal churches, 1990s, he believed that God told him that there is no hell, everybody will be saved.

And it cost him greatly, and he's still around. Now he's got a great following of all the people who agree with him. You know, is that funny? Oh, I knew there was no hell, thank you for telling me. Well, not what he says, what does the Bible say?

And it is a hard concept. So I'm hoping you guys can make it Sunday, be praying for this weekend. We've got people, they'll probably be there who aren't believers, and they need to hear about the reality of what God's word says on this topic.

So anyway, that's what that means. What I say, what anybody says, comes under the authority of scripture. And that includes, that includes the Roman church, the papacy, that's one big difference between us and Roman Catholicism, is what the Pope says is elevated, even more so than the Bible.

No, no, he has to come underneath the authority. And it's funny, people get upset at me about talking about this topic, but, and I'll tell them, do you know that they believe as Mary is co-redeemer? Oh, no, we don't.

Oh, yeah, you do. It was in the 1600s, it's in some of your councils. I can show you where they said that, that Mary is co-redeemer, she is co-matrix. She is to pray to the blessed Virgin Mary, that she is without sin, immaculate conception, conceived without sin, perpetual virginity of Mary, that she was always a virgin.