Witchcraft - Public Enemy #1 - Part 1 — Derek Prince

Witchcraft, Divination, and Sorcery

Message number three entitled, Witchcraft, Public Enemy Number One. There are three main words that are commonly used in the English language to speak about the various aspects of satanic power. They are witchcraft, divination, and sorcery.

Divination is essentially the fortune-telling realm. It operates by revelation, by gazing into a crystal ball, by dream, by palm reading, by teacup reading, by tarot cards, and many many other ways. That all is classified under the one heading of divination.

Then there is sorcery. Sorcery operates through objects or through something which produces a physical impact or result. Sorcery operates through fetishes, through charms, through amulets, through bracelets.

Many times people are enslaved because some kind of a ring or other object has been given them which is satanic in its origin. Sometimes they're not aware of that. Let me illustrate this by a little example.

In Miami, in a hotel about two years ago, a friend of mine was ministering to people as I have been doing this morning. Finding out that their legs were unequal and by the power of God causing them to grow out.

And there was a young man who came forward whose legs were manifestly unequal. But when the man who was ministering held them up, the short leg did not grow. It would not budge. So the man ministering noticed that this young man had a bracelet on his ankle.

And he said, where did you get that bracelet from? He said, my girlfriend gave it to me. He said, are there any particular associations with that bracelet? Does it mean anything special to you? And he said, no not really.

He said, did it mean anything special to your girlfriend? He said, I wouldn't know. He said, would it in any way represent rebellion on the part of your girlfriend? He said, it might do. So the man ministering said, would you be willing to take the bracelet off?

And the young man took the bracelet off and the moment he did, without further prayer, his leg grew out. See that was a way that Satan was binding him with power through this object. Sorcery also works through music, through dancing.

There are many forms of music and dancing which are channels of satanic supernatural power. Much of rock and roll and so on, is actually energized by evil spiritual forces. And the people that get involved in them, open up to those forces.

I have had many people delivered from demons that came through rock and roll music and other kinds of music in the same category. So that is sorcery. Witchcraft essentially is the dominating satanic force.

It's the force that captivates, that dominates, that controls. And it works by spell and by curses and by personal domination. And let me say right at the beginning, that it is never the will of God for one person to dominate another.

In any situation where one person dominates another, the force that enables that person to do so, is evil. It is never the will of God for a husband to dominate his wife, or a wife to dominate her husband, or parents to dominate children, or a minister to dominate his congregation.

Any time that you get domination by one person over another, the force behind it is evil. And very often it is actually witchcraft. You see, there's such a thing as the soulish, which is quite distinct from the spiritual.

This is, there is no time to go into this tonight. But the spiritual is one thing, the soulish is another. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, the soulish man received is not the things of the Spirit of God.

Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned. And in James chapter 3, let me just read this short passage, verses 14 and 15, James 3 verses 14 and 15,. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

If you can't live in peace with your husband or your wife, don't tell everybody that you've got it all, from the spiritual point of view, you know. And our church has it all. Because when the neighbors hear you quarreling, they'll know better.

Now then, it goes on, this wisdom descended not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. Now the literal translation is, earthly, soulish, demonic. There is a down gradation. You come down to the earthly level, you go into the soulish level.

And the next thing is, the demonic. So the order is, earthly, soulish, demonic. And when anybody, in their own natural willpower and intentions, decides to get somebody else to do something, the force that they're exercising is soulish.

And it frequently ends up, by opening to the demonic. It's most important to understand this, much prayer is soulish. Prayer is not a way of getting God to do what we want him to do. Any prayer that's based on that kind of motivation, is soulish to start with.

Prayer is not a way of getting other people to do what we want them to do. And any prayer that's based on that motivation, is soulish. Frankly there are some people who come to me and say, brother Prince I'm praying for you.

And I sometimes wish under my breath, I wish you weren't. Because there are soulish prayers, that do not bring the Spirit of God in their train. But bring dark, evil, oppressive power. Earthly, soulish, demonic.

And when a person, in the name of being spiritual, becomes soulish, in order to assert his own will. Express his own personality, get his own desires and ambitions fulfilled, get other people doing what he wants.

That person, and it's usually a woman, is in danger of coming under the influence of witchcraft. And there are, let me say, two kinds of witches. And I've dealt frequently with both kinds. There are the witches, who know they are witches.

They intend to be witches. They cultivate Satan's power. They deal in spells and curses and things like that. I've dealt with many of them. We've had some here in these meetings. Some have been delivered.

But there's another kind of witch, who really in many ways is more dangerous. Because she doesn't know she's a witch, and other people don't know she's a witch. And she's usually a good church member.

A man phoned me a little while back, long distance, he was quite excited. He said, Brother Prince, are there Pentecostal witches? And I said, yes there are. And there are charismatic witches too. Oh he said, what's the difference?

Well I said, Pentecostal witches usually operate in Pentecostal congregations. And try to control the pastor and the congregation. Charismatic witches usually operate in home prayer groups. And try to control the home prayer group and usually their husband as well.

So he was silent for a few moments. And then he said, well I think what we have is a charismatic witch, he said. Now this may sound shocking to some of you. But I'm speaking on the basis of experience.

I have run into this more times than I can count. And I'll give you just a few examples. About two years ago, I was preaching in a camp meeting. Taking the sessions on deliverance. And God opened my mind to this, while I was preaching.

Which is what frequently happens to me. I began to see truth that I had not prepared to preach. And so I spoke about how many, many women, unwillingly dominate their husbands and their families. And try to get everybody doing what they think they should be doing.

Usually with the best of intentions and motives. And I pointed out how in those homes, the husband really never takes his place of headship in the family. And though he may be successful in business and in secular enterprises.

He never becomes a fully developed spiritual person. Because there's a pressure in the home that keeps him from developing. And that pressure is witchcraft in the wife. And I pointed out how usually it will produce rebellion in the children.

And it will cause a home to break up. And let me say that witchcraft is number one homebreaker in the world. And it's the prevalence of witchcraft in the United States. That causes one out of every two marriages to end in divorce.

Broken homes are in direct proportion to the power of witchcraft in a nation. And measured by that standard, the United States has more witchcraft at work here than any other nation on the earth. And I believe it.

Deliverance from an Unrecognized Spiritual Influence

Well at the end of this teaching session, a woman whom I know quite well. I've actually visited and stayed in her home. She has a husband and two teenage or just above teenage children. And they're all Christian, all baptized in the Holy Spirit.

But she came up to me and she said, Brother Prince, you've described me this afternoon. For the first time I saw what's really in me. I'm what you were talking about. I'm a Pentecostal witch. Will you pray for me?

She said, though my whole family is baptized in the Holy Spirit. There's no peace in our home. The family is falling apart. Well I began to pray with her. And I was amazed at the power of the manifestation of Satan out of that woman.

In fact I had to ask two people to come and hold her down. And she put her hand up on her spine. And she said, it's fastened here in my spine and it won't turn loose. Praise God it did get loose. But that opened my eyes to the reality of this power.

I'll give you another example. Some five years or so ago. An assembly of God evangelist, who is quite well known. Though probably not known by name to any of you here. Called upon me for help. He told me that he was in spiritual need.

And asked me if I would go and speak with him and counsel with him. He took me out to lunch and I sat and listened to him. And he told me about his home problems and the, his own spiritual problems. So when we had finished lunch, we went back together to his hotel room.

And he waited for me to offer my opinion. And I said this, I said brother I have only one source of information. And that's what you've told me. If your information is not reliable, my diagnosis is not reliable.

But if what you have told me is true, then your mother is a witch. And he said that's what my wife said. Now the mother was a good Pentecostal believer. A member of a Pentecostal congregation. Used to give utterances and tongues and interpretations and so on.

Then he said would you pray for me. And I said yes. Put my hand on his shoulder and realize what was going to happen. I jumped across the room, grabbed the waste paper basket and got it there just in time.

And for about 20 minutes he was throwing up some filthy slimy stuff. That was just coming streaming out of his body. When this was finished he said, and this was his comment. Isn't that remarkable. He said we've just been out to lunch together and we ate fried chicken.

But he said in all that I've brought up, there isn't a trace of fried chicken. He said it didn't come from my stomach. That was his observation. I phoned him next day to inquire how he was doing. And he said I feel fine.

But he said I feel as if I've run a 12 mile race. Every bone in my body is aching. Then he said could you advise us as to what to do about our daughter. She was I think 13 years old and completely out of control.

Went out all night, stayed out with men, was on marijuana and so on. Well I said what I suggest you do is get together with your wife fast and pray. And when you really feel you're in the victory. And you've got the power of God at your disposal.

Get some piece of clothing or other garment that your daughter wears regularly. Lay hands on it and rebuke the satanic power in your daughter. Well that was the end of that. A year later almost to the day he contacted me.

He went back in the area. Gave me a report on how he was doing. Then I said what happened to your daughter. He said I want to tell you the story. He said we did what you suggested. We waited till we prayed and fasted.

Then we got an old blue t-shirt. Which our daughter used to love very much. Without telling her we prayed over it, laid hands on it, rebuked the enemy. Our daughter put it on and he said to make a long story short.

She's now in a very high class Episcopal girls boarding school. She's getting grade A in every subject and they rate her a perfect little lady. That was one year later. But he said that's not the whole story.

One day my mother the girl's grandmother came to our house. And did something she hardly ever did. Offered to do some washing for my wife. And in the laundry that she washed was the blue t-shirt. And he said you can accept it or not.

But ever since my mother washed that shirt. She's been a different woman too. Now with a few details that's an exactly accurate record of what that man told me. See his mother was a Pentecostal witch.

And it was her influence that was ruining the entire home. I have noticed this with such persons. Very frequently such a woman will have one grandchild. Whom she particularly favors. And that grandchild will become the object of her witchcraft.

And it's disastrous for the child. Well some of you have probably heard. I don't know whether it was a radio broadcast or a telecast. About a person who was me. I wasn't named. Who told the lady that she was a witch.

How many of you heard that? It was broadcast over KHOS by brother Ray Shaw. You heard it. I didn't hear it. I couldn't get anywhere to hear it. Well there's a measure of truth in it. I know who the lady is.

And I'll tell you my side of the story. I'm not doing this to defend myself. But I'm doing it because it's a crystal clear example of what I'm talking about. In the full gospel businessmen's regional convention in St. Louis last year.

This family came all the way from Southern California. Father, mother, daughter, son-in-law and grandson. To see me in St. Louis. What they really wanted to do was gang up on their son-in-law. And get me to squelch him.

Because he had a lot of problems. Some of which affected his wife. And I must be careful that I don't say anything that would betray. Secrets that should not be revealed. But as I sat and listened to them.

I felt that that mother, in the name of being spiritual. Was seeking to dominate and control her entire family. And those children that didn't get out from under her influence, were ruined. The ones who had the gumption to get out, were preserved.

And the daughter that was with me, was the one who had the least ability to resist her mother's domination over her life. And the grandson was a problem child. I mean, psychiatrically classified a problem child.

And I felt that behind all that, was the evil dominating influence of the mother and grandmother. And I told this lady, very frankly to her face. I said, if I'm correct, you're a witch. You may not recognize it.

And you're ruining your family and your home. Now the husband was a gifted businessman, with a very successful business. And he could be a man in every field except two. His home and the church. And there he was a zero.

Because the power in his wife, could not allow that man to become spiritually a man. In the end, the young couple accepted what I told them. So did the husband. The only one that was a little upset, was the lady I told, was a witch.

Separation from a Controlling Mother-in-Law

So they said to me, do you think, the young couple said, do you think that we should separate ourselves from the mother-in-law. And not keep going to her home. And not in any way remain under her influence.

I said, that's my emphatic conviction. It's what you should do. There's a lot in that scripture that says, for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. Friends when a couple get married, the parents don't have any business sticking their finger in that pie.

So what happened was, the parents, the elderly couple, drove home alone. The young couple and the grandchild flew by air back here. So they really made a division. And remarkably enough, a week before I came here, the young man wrote me a letter.

I'd forgotten about the incident, it wasn't in my mind. And he described in some detail, all the changes that had taken place in his family, since they got out from the influence of the mother-in-law.

And every change was dramatically for the better. Including the little boy, who scarcely could be regarded as a problem child any longer. The young mother had become an active, joyful, witnessing Christian.

The young man had entered into a special field of ministry. And has just been promoted in that ministry, to a position of responsibility. All that happened in the course of about nine months. From the time that the influence of the mother, over that family was broken.

And I am not afraid to be ruthless, when it comes to a situation like that. And there are many, many, many such situations in the United States. I meet man, after man, after man. Who can never become, what God requires him to be, in two areas.

In his home, and in the work of the Lord. He can be successful as the president of a bank. He can be an athlete. He can go to Vietnam and get decorated with medals. But there's two areas, in which for some reason, that he doesn't understand.

He's inhibited, repressed and unable to develop. And I've met men in their 50s and 60s. Extremely successful in the business world. Who never really matured spiritually or emotionally. Because they were still tied to a mother's ancient strength.

Witchcraft, Gender Roles, and National Influence

My personal conviction is, that this is the greatest single problem. That threatens the United States. And I also believe that the resolution of this problem. Will produce the greatest revolution this nation has ever known.

Basically, and I hope you'll go on loving me. The United States is a woman-dominated nation. I have never, I've traveled widely and lived in many nations. I have never met any other nation. In which was, in any degree like that, dominated by women.

They say 80 of the capital of the nation is in the hands of women. This is partly through the laws of inheritance and so on. And this is not an attack on women. But for every 10 active women workers in the church.

You're lucky to find one man. Is that right? The church and the home, the two areas of spiritual responsibility. In most cases are woman-dominated. Now I don't say that in every case, such a woman is a witch.

But I do say that it's the power of witchcraft over this nation. Which is holding men down spiritually. And putting women in positions of leadership for which they are not qualified. And to which God did not appoint them.

Furthermore, I do believe that witchcraft is the great national danger politically. As I, I'm a Britisher. And I came to the United States and took United States citizenship. So I'm an American citizen by choice.

Which is more than most of you can say. And I knew nothing of American history. As far as British is concerned, the pilgrims were dropouts. I mean when they made that mistake, that was the end. But I have become appointed in the last years.

With just a few of the background facts of American history. And I see this, two spiritual streams in this nation. One is a pure stream of the truth of God. Such as no other nation outside of Israel has ever enjoyed.

And the other is Satan's counterfeit. And essentially it's witchcraft. And the two are in opposition. And the destiny of this nation is settled by how those two influences work out. You're probably, I mean all Americans I suppose are aware.

That every 20 years since 1860, the president elected in the 20th year has died in office. Usually in rather tragic circumstances. The first such president was Abraham Lincoln. And I think a tremendous amount turns around what happened with him.

Now I'm a great admirer of Abraham Lincoln. I'm convinced he was a sincere, dedicated, committed Christian. I have a book coming out shortly. Which is called shaping history through prayer and fasting.

And in that book I have three presidential proclamations. Made by Abraham Lincoln calling the entire nation to a day of humiliation, prayer and fasting. The statements he makes in those proclamations are amazing.

One of the things he says is this. That nation only is happy whose God is the Lord. This is officially recorded in the statutes of the United States. I can give you from my book the volume and the number of the proclamations.

Few Americans know that. I've talked to many quite well educated Americans. Lawyers, doctors, they're not aware. In the history of this nation, four of your presidents proclaimed days of national humiliation, prayer and fasting for the whole nation.

And the language of those proclamations would do credit to most preachers. George Washington himself was a man who believed in prayer and fasting. And in his diaries he records of a certain day, the first of June.

What would it be, 1773 I think. Went to church and spent the day fasting. But in the case of Abraham Lincoln, his wife, though I'm inclined to think she was a Christian. Became deeply involved in spiritualism.

And persuaded her husband to allow her to conduct a spiritist seance in the White House. Which Lincoln attended, though he did not participate in. Now I am personally convinced that that has a tremendous amount to do with the subsequent events of American history.

I believe a curse was imported into the White House and came down over the presidency. And it is still being worked out. And it will probably take tremendous prayer by believing Christians, to revoke that curse.

So I see, in what little I know of the history of the United States. The conflict between the forces of light and the forces of darkness, in a very vivid and real way. All right now, having said that much, I'm going to the scripture.

Deliverance in Acts 8

And I'm going to give you a brief picture of witchcraft in the scriptures. We'll begin in the New Testament, Acts chapter 8, beginning at verse 5 and reading through verse 11. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them.

And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them.

And many taken with pauses, and that were lame, were healed. I mean to speak about that tomorrow morning. Let me mention this, this is just a little comment. I feel free to be slightly discursive this evening.

Though I've got an outline ahead of me. Don Basham and I and another preacher, who is a friend of mine, a Pentecostal preacher, were in a series of meetings in a certain place. Which was outside the United States, a British domain.

And one evening, Don conducted the deliverance service. Such as you have seen here the last few nights. The next day, the other preacher, the Pentecostal, got very indignant and stood up and complained about this.

And said, where in the New Testament do you ever read about a service like that? So Don Basham, very, he's a very quiet and gentle person, stood up and he said, what about Acts 8 7. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them.

And many that were taken with pauses, and that were lame, were healed. Let me point out to you, that in the last few days, that has been exactly fulfilled here. I mean I just say that as a matter of objective fact.

Well, this dear Pentecostal preacher was not satisfied with this. He was still upset. At the back of the room, in both meetings, was an Anglican rector. A rector in the Anglican Church. And he came up to me afterwards, in a very friendly way.

And he spoke about this Pentecostal preacher who had objected. And he said you know, isn't it amazing. It happens right in front of his eyes and still he can't see it. And I really marveled that the Anglican rector could see it.

And a very long-standing Pentecostal preacher, couldn't see it. And that caused me to think about something else. The assumption was, in the mind of that preacher. That the kind of service that we're familiar with, is the scriptural norm.

And you know, you can describe that kind of service. If you've been in Pentecost or the Baptist Church, you know those churches. All right, it's two hymns, the announcement, a special, a word of testimony, a message.

And don't be too long-winded, because our favorite tv show is on at 9 30. And the benediction. I was in a Southern Baptist Church, where the Holy Spirit has fallen, on a Sunday morning meeting. And he said brother Prince, don't worry about the time.

Our Sunday morning services are no longer a countdown to the benediction. But that basically is true, isn't it? That is the accepted, recognized pamphlet. All right, the hymns, the special, them, yes.

You know what I thought to myself, in the light of this? I thought to myself, where in the New Testament, do you ever find any service remotely like that? And my answer is, nowhere. Now I'm not saying it's wrong.

But what I am saying, is it's ridiculous to act as if that was the sacred cow, that mustn't be touched. Which is exactly what it is. It's a sacred cow, that's all it is. Now I've no objection to having services like that.

But let's not claim that these are the only authorized, normal pattern for Christian services. Because we don't find them in the New Testament. All right, now we're going back to Philip. Verse 8, there was great joy in that city.

Simon the Sorcerer and the Bondage of Occult Power

But there was a certain man called Simon, who before time, in the same city, used sorcery. And bewitched the people of Samaria. Giving out that himself was some great one. There's one sure mark of a servant of Satan.

He'll take the glory for himself. He'll claim to be himself, a great person of power. But he had bewitched the whole city. He had the whole city under his control. One man, by the power of witchcraft.

He was what we would call in Africa, a witch doctor. And they were all under bondage, until Philip came, preached Christ and liberated the people, with a ministry of deliverance. And do you know why there was such a tremendous manifestation of evil spirits in Samaria?

Because of the power of witchcraft that dominated the city. And anywhere witchcraft is in power. When deliverance comes, there will be a tremendous manifest conflict. Because it's the two kingdoms brought into the open.

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. And let me say again, and I'll probably say it several times. I've traveled widely. I've lived eight years in Africa. I was born in India. I was brought up in Europe.

I've traveled in New Zealand and Australia and many other countries. But I do not know of any country today in the world, where there is more witchcraft and deliberate cultivation of satanic power, than the United States.

There's far less of it in Africa today than there is in America. That's why the deliverance ministry is so greatly needed. And that's why there is such a conflict, when the deliverance ministry is brought into play.

It's exactly as it was in Samaria. Now you'll notice about Simon, that when he saw the superior power of God demonstrated by Philip. He said this is the right thing, I'll follow this. And he believed and got baptized.

Then Peter and John came down, the rest of the chapter records. And prayed for those believers, they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands, these believers received the Holy Spirit.

He offered the apostles money and said I'll give you money, if you give me this power. Now I have to observe, that if Simon had been in some modern churches. He wouldn't have offered them 10 cents for what he saw.

But there was something there that was worth money, he thought. Of course he was wrong, it could not be purchased for money. And notice what Peter says to him. Verse 20, Peter said unto him, thy money perish with thee.

Because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter. For thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Even though he had believed and been baptized.

His heart was not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness. And pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness.

And in the bond of iniquity. Very strong language. Now the next thing is typical. Then answered Simon and said, pray ye to the Lord for me. That none of these things which he has spoken come upon me. To me that's typical of the person deeply involved in the occult.

Especially ministering it. It is very, very hard for them ever to make a real total break. They still want to go the old crooked way. And they do not understand the true meaning of repentance. So instead of Simon repenting.

He said you pray for me. And I can't tell you how many times people have come to me and said. Brother Prince pray for me that I may be delivered. My answer is you repent. Now I don't mean that people that have been practitioners of the occult.

Cannot be delivered. They can and I know many who have. But I mean you've got to make a 100 percent total renunciation. Of everything that was involved. We go on to Acts 13. Acts 13 verses 6 through 11.

Elymas and Opposition to the Gospel

I must read quickly. This is Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary journey. And when they had gone through the island that's of Cyprus. Unto Paphos. They found there a certain sorcerer. The same word that's used of Simon in Acts chapter 8.

A false prophet. A Jew whose name was Bar Jesus. Which was with the deputy or pro-consul of the country Sergius Paulus. A prudent man. And that's another thing about the practices of the occult. They like to get close to political power and authority.

And exercise influence through that. Now Sergius Paulus the pro-consul. The second half of verse 7. Called for Barnabas and Saul and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas that's his other name.

The sorcerer. But so is his name by interpretation. Withstood them seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Notice the occult will always seek to hinder. And prevent the preaching of the truth.

And will always seek to keep those who are under its control. From hearing the truth. This is a universal fact. Many people come to me and they say brother Prince. I find I can't read my bible. I try to but every time I sit down something seems to come.

And though I may actually read the words there's no understanding. Almost invariably the background of that is involvement in the occult. Don Basham has in his book Deliverance from Evil. The story of a friend of ours the wife of a physician.

Who's known to both of us. Both of us have ministered deliverance to her at one time and another. She received progressive deliverance. But though she was a Baptist Sunday school teacher. Her own acknowledgement was that she could not read the bible.

And enjoy it for years and years and years. And one day Don Basham was preaching. In a service in a hotel and in the middle of the service. Something like a neon light went on in this woman's mind flashing.

And all it said was Ouija board, Ouija board, Ouija board, Ouija board. And she could not contain. She got up rushed out of the service went to the ladies restroom. And brought up something that almost choked her.

Was delivered from this involvement with the Ouija board. Which she had been introduced to by her father when a little girl. And her testimony is in his book. From then on she could love her husband, love her children.

And rejoice in the knowledge of the reality of salvation. And loved reading the bible. The barrier had been removed. The occult will always be a barrier to enjoying the things of God. Another common experience is that people are in a meeting.

Where God is being worshipped in spirit and in truth. They're reaching out in worship. And somehow just when they seem near to touching God. Some barrier seems to come down between them. I've heard many people tell me that.

And I have almost always found that they've been to a fortune teller. Almost invariably. I remember a man of catholic background. Who had come into the charismatic movement. He's a friend of mine today.

A quite well educated intelligent man. And I was with him in some meetings. And I said are you baptized in the Holy Spirit. And he said yes but. And when people say yes but. You know what that but is don't you.

A trunkless elephant. Yes but I don't speak in tongues. I said wouldn't you like to. He said yes. But he said somehow I just can't do it. I said did you ever go to a fortune teller. He said yes when I was a boy of 15.

But it was just a joke. I didn't mean anything by it. But I said you did go. He said yes. I said have you ever renounced it. Well he said not openly. I said if I'll leave you in a statement of renunciation publicly now.