Adult Sunday School - The Roman Catholic Controversy Part 19

For today we thank you lord that while it is still called today. You've given us Opportunity to praise you now to offer Living sacrifices holy and acceptable to god through jesus christ our savior. We pray lord that you'd help us now.

To lay aside worldly cares worldly stresses and help us father. Even beginning now with this study that we would begin to send to our hearts and our minds around true worship. Father help us in our weakness.

We pray for the interceding ministry of the spirit of god. To help us in our weakness to be able again to focus on the things that are heavenly the things that are good and pure. We ask god that even now you'd help us to see the truth of your word as we study it here.

Through this book and particularly through your word. And how important it is to have a faith centered upon your word and not upon the traditions of man. And we pray this in jesus name. Amen. So we are in chapter 13 of the roman catholic controversy.

Sola Scriptura Versus Doctrinal Development in Roman Catholicism

So if you have your book you can turn there. And so we've we've kind of we've gone through a lot of subjects. I know we've kind of taken a small break two week break from this subject, but we we've kind of uh, Encompassed quite a bit of things.

So last chapter was on what do you remember? Purgatory. I love that topic of purgatory because it gets me into other Uh theological discussions that usually get me in trouble with christians, too um. And that's uh, you know the intermediate state.

And again, you know, a lot of people a lot of christians even have differing views on the intermediate state. But it's one of those topics that's really interesting to to study into to delve deep into.

Because I actually think the bible has a lot to say on that subject and I think it matters. Um, it's not essential, but it is very interesting to to study these matters. And how even the roman catholic dogma of purgatory? comes out of a misunderstanding.

Of things like the intermediate state. And that's kind of the focus of today's chapter is when sola scriptura is rejected. And when sola scriptura is rejected when the bible's no longer the sole and ultimate basis for faith and practice.

What inevitably happens is there is an evolution of Dogma and doctrines that extend outside of the bible, right? And so again a good example of that would be purgatory. Purgatory is a doctrine that evolved out of the vacuum of scripture, right?

So you have tradition beginning to take a prominent role in church history. And you start to have practical uh quorums and. And discussions that ultimately inevitably lead to a departure from scripture and it's no different today even with an evangelicalism.

I would say that. You you see the liberalization of evangelicalism and mainline protestant denominations. As they begin to deter from sola scriptura and a very easy modern marker of this with an evangelicalism.

Evangelicalism would be the rejection of complementarianism the adoption of egalitarianism and eventually leading to the ordination of women to uh pastoral ministry and so when you when you start to depart from sola scriptura meaning that the bible is the Soul and and and you know the main authority of christian life and doctrine.

You depart from sola scriptura. Then you begin to adopt other things that are outside of scripture. And a clear sign of that would be in evangelicalism at least is the adoption of women into uh pastoral ministry.

But we see that in church history as well within roman catholicism in the adoption of certain doctrines in rome such as purgatory such as uh, what we're going to study today the immaculate conception of of uh, the doctrine of mary that essentially teaches that she is uh perpetually.

Uh, you know immaculate meaning that she was basically without sin from her Conception and then the conception of jesus. Obviously. She's without sin and continued to be so all the way through. Uh, you know her earthly course these are all ways in which um.

You know the roman catholic faith has really uh deviated from sola scriptura meaning the authority of scripture. Any thoughts or questions on that? Basis. Before we jump into it. Yes dale. What's the basis for that anger.

Maryology, the Fatima Apparitions, and the Modern Roman Catholic View of Mary

I think it should it should spur us to some strong emotion for sure. You know maryology Is something that has taken centuries to really evolve. Even within modern time the perception of mary has only grown more and more.

Um, do you know who the last pope to really? Push forward maryology was you know who the last pope was to really push forward the worship essentially the worship of mary. Wasn't that long ago? It was john, uh, john, uh, pope john paul the the second uh, so he was the last pope to really further push mary to the forefront of modern modern roman catholicism.

And he did so by adopting what was considered A taboo subject. I'm, not sure if anyone here has ever heard of the fatima um. Miracle anyone ever heard of the fatima miracle before anyone know what the fatima miracle is?

Yes. Yeah, but it's it's usually it's you know, yeah. Yeah. So it's um, it's a supposed miracle that happened around 1917 if i'm not mistaken. And it happened in a small village in portugal where initially these three young girls Are the first to see this vision of a woman.

Now, here's the thing. No one can actually confirm whether it was mary. It is presumed that it was mary because it was a vision of a womanly figure. And so no one was able to truly confirm whether it was mary and at first most accounts.

Some people said it was mary some people said it was someone else and No one could really put their finger on it until the catholic church actually adopted this as a legitimate miracle and attribute it to mary.

But in the fatima, uh, you know vision you essentially have uh, mary or this womanly figure appear to thousands of people over a course of like two weeks. And supposedly the sun even sits still kind of like in the uh, you know what happens in the old testament you know, uh with joshua and so you have this very powerful, uh, euphoric Time where people are just you know, seeing visions and and communicating with this divine woman now, this is a.

It was a hotly contested vision that wasn't fully adopted until uh, you know pope paul the second. Uh kind of really adopted and said, okay. No, this was mary. And so even the evolution of maryology even in modern times has really, you know taken more shape and form and within the the fatima vision.

There was three prophecies that was made. That are widely adopted by today the roman catholic church and it all has to deal with kind of uh, russia. And so the first vision or the first part of the prophecy essentially is that mary?

Said that russia has to be consecrated unto god. Uh, and and until that happens. She'll be in perpetual Wars and issues like that. And this is interesting because this is right around the bolshevik revolution, which was a communist revolution that took over that Toppled the russian oligarchy and established, you know communism within uh, russia and so this was all very uh.

You know hot on the topics of people's minds that you know russia was going through his revolution. And so of course mary has a word for russia. And that is that russia has to be consecrated unto god.

If not, she'll have perpetual wars and so. Uh, and another one was that the pope has to consecrate himself to mary. It was the second part of the prophecy and it wasn't until pope, uh, john paul the second.

That that prophecy was considered as fulfilled because he really took that to heart. And john paul was hugely invested in the doctrine of mary and brought that to really the mainstream forefront of modern roman catholicism and so you see how that has uh, kind of modern implication and roots today when you Evaluate modern, uh roman catholicism.

And so that has a a bit to do with what we are going to be reading today. In chapter 13 when sola scriptura is rejected. Yeah, I can't remember the third part, uh, I think it has to do basically with um.

Oh, yes, the the once these two things are done. Then the immaculate heart of mary will essentially bring peace To the world to some something to that degree, but that's where they get the they get this talk about the immaculate heart of mary.

Um, you know, it comes it's really it was popularized by this fatima experience and and prophecy. And so we have this, uh, this concept of roman catholicism called immaculate conception. Can anyone define what immaculate conception is within the roman catholic dogma?

So immaculate meaning that she is, uh perfect. Right. So something is immaculate. It's perfect and the immaculate conception Is usually a reference to mary and of course ultimately the virgin birth of jesus.

Yes. Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, i'm not sure exactly what the language, uh, uh, you know says but for sure Roman catholicism teaches a very strange problematic view in that. Again, what's what's happening in in roman catholicism is that there's an elevation of mary.

So you have christ and the things that protestants and catholics agree is that christ is god. That jesus is god. And so then they say okay. Well this woman She is the god bearer. Therefore who could bear god who can bring god into the world?

Which she would have to be sinless herself. Right. She would have to be Of such a category that she alone could bring god into the world, right? And so there's this confusion with roman catholicism that they're confusing and confusing confounding the natures of christ so this is actually so the the the roots of mariology is a bad christology.

Okay, so a bad christology leads to bad understanding of mary. Because did mary give birth to god? Think about that in a metaphysical sense. Did mary give birth to god? Yes. Anyone else? Okay. Okay. Oh, you're doing a little bit of uh.

Thinking there. That's good the eternal one. Okay. So here's the here's here's what we believe as christians and this is what's laid out for us in the creeds christ Is one person with two natures. Okay and When mary gave birth she gave birth to the man jesus christ.

To the man to the humanity of jesus not To the divinity. Now, of course the divinity is wrapped in human Clothing essentially, you know god was in christ. But mary did not give birth to god in the sense that she um is the originator Of the divine nature or essence, which is why the bible makes it clear that what was conceived in her was conceived by what?

The holy spirit. So that what was what was that of divine nature? Uh Is is totally untouched by or uncorrupted by by you know Mary's humanity. Okay. So christ is one person with two natures. She did not give birth to god in the sense that she is the originator of the divine nature.

Now in a sense, you know, the answer is yes and no. Because christ is god and he is one person and of course that person that came through the womb of mary was the god man but again in terms of Origination the where you know, uh, she is she helped in the origination of his humanity.

Not his divine origin, which is what the bible says in micah 5 2. It says concerning the messiah that his origins Is from long ago from the days of eternity. Okay, so the origin of christ of of of his divine nature is from eternity past.

That's what micah 5 2 says. But of course he has a human origin that's found in the conception of christ in the womb of mary. Um. And so so we cannot confound the two natures of christ when we're talking about.

Was mary the actual god bearer? Right. Meaning that you know, did she? You know give birth to god. And the answer to that is theologically, no. Right, she didn't give birth to god in in the. Since she's the originator of the divine nature.

But she did give birth to the man jesus christ who is himself in human flesh god. Okay a little bit confusing but this does that kind of make a little bit of sense. Any questions on that? Yeah, she's.

I mean he certainly has has mary's dna. Right and and she is the mother of his humanity. But she's not the mother of his divinity and that's the point that i'm getting at. Is again christ is one person with two natures.

Uh, the origin of his divine nature is the father the origins of his humanity is mary again, two two natures one person. Uh, and so mary is not the god bearer in that sense that she's the originator or source of christ divine nature.

That divine nature according to colossians chapter one is is in the father it says it was. That it pleased the father for all fullness to dwell in jesus. And so jesus his divine nature is connected to the father.

Okay, not to mary. Make sense. Okay. Okay. So the basis for so is there a biblical basis for the immaculate conception. Again, we're page 198 13th chapter of the book. Is there a biblical basis for the immaculate conception of mary.

Uh here here again is is is the key to this chapter. When sola scriptura is rejected you inevitably have a a host of Doctrines that go beyond the things that are written. Uh infant baptism is one of those things as well where you see the evolution of it where.

There's this problem. Infants are dying. There's Infant mortality rates that are very high. So what happens to the souls of those children that die? These are all practical questions and most heresies develop under very practical circumstances.

Okay, you need to hear that again most heresies develop under very practical circumstances. Okay, same thing today in the modern evangelical world. Well, we just don't have enough men to fill the pulpit.

So we got to we got to pull from you know. The pull of women and go beyond what is written go beyond sola scriptura beyond the authority of scripture. And start doing things that are extra biblical. Okay the same issue arose early within the church history, which is where we inevitably get the Uh evolution of these doctrinal chorals that you find in rome.

The practical question behind the immaculate conception again if mary gave birth to god who Could fit that role that person who gives birth to god has to herself be immaculate perfect to some degree. Okay, it's a very practical question very practical problem.

The Practical Logic Behind the Immaculate Conception

Yeah, it could be yeah, that could be an uh, a solution. Yeah I mean the the call is clear for the church to raise up Qualified men for these offices, right? And it doesn't mean that a woman doesn't have a role in helping and obviously we believe in the sanctity of the priesthood of the believer.

Meaning that even men and women, you know here in our church vote and have a say and a part in the life and activities of the church but in terms of exercising pastoral authority the and and The authority of a deacon.

These are roles for exclusively for men. So That's that's the biblical teaching. Any other thoughts or questions, yes. How did mary become sinless? Does anyone want to answer that how did mary become sinless?

Yes. Yes. And I mean and in some sense popularize the concept of original sin. Um, and it's a and it's a concept that we hold on to as you know. At least in this part of promiscenism reform theology. We believe in original sin as well.

But this is where it gets interesting. Mary was exempt from original sin to some degree within roman catholic dogma how Rome doesn't even know. What's interesting is that there's a lot of theories and you'll find a lot of the the priests and the jesuits debate over this matter and they'll say well mary mary's parents then also.

Some say must have been sinless and that there is a sinless line that goes all the way back somewhere somehow. You know to the foundation of creation uh, and and that has been advocated for in some roman catholic circles now, uh Rome doesn't have a complete answer to this question other than that what is the mainstream view of Roman catholicism is basically that there was a special grace that was imparted particularly to mary.

That was that everyone else was exempt to. You know. So no one else could could get this grace that was exclusively for mary and that by means of this particular grace. That was imparted to mary. She was able to be Immaculate perfect.

Okay. Remember so think immaculate think perfect. So she was immaculate. She was perfect. She was without sin because she was the god bearer. She was the one that god chose to be the instrument of bringing god into the world.

So that's that's that's kind of the mainline View is that there's a special grace imparted particularly and only to mary, but there are others who have advocated for a Special lineage, you know tracing all the way back to creation of people who are apparently sinless.

Which is problematic, isn't it? So Yes. Yeah, she's perpetual perpetually a virgin. Yeah. Yeah, some protestants have uh advocate for that view. I think calvin did. Yeah, I think calvin did i'm not sure about luther probably probably so again, you got you got to remember that these guys are coming out of the Confusion of rome as well.

You know, this is hot hot off the you know reformation and There is a unraveling that needs to take place within church history unravel some of these errors. And so, you know, I don't you know, we don't look to calvin as our pope.

So if he was wrong, well. So what? You know calvin was wrong on a lot of things. Uh edwards was wrong on things, you know, everyone's wrong with things i'm wrong on things. You know, there is no perfect theologian on the side of eternity except for christ and so, uh, we have to uh, Get used to the fact that we have no popes.

And so when people are they are. And uh, and there's room for error um. And so yeah luther was wrong on a whole host of things. That I would consider wrong for sure. And it's actually in contradiction to what we read.

I think last week um. Was I here last week? Yeah, I was right. Yeah. Okay. I'm starting to forget when I was here or not. All right, luke 8. Luke 8. Let's turn there for a moment. And I and I touched on this last week in my sermon a bit.

I didn't go too deep into it. Because I wanted to actually save it for this discussion but luke chapter 8 verse 19 to 21 then his mother and his brothers, this is the Referring to christ's mother and his brothers.

Came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told your mother and your brothers are standing outside desiring to see you. But he answered them. My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of god and do it.

So it sounds like a clear reading of scripture would lead you to believe what that mary has Other kids other than jesus. Why because the text says his mother and his brothers. Okay, meaning that christ had other brothers.

He had other Blood relatives that were at least obviously half brothers because mary and joseph were married. Okay. So that means that mary was not a perpetual virgin and what's weird about roman catholicism is that they they link Original sin somewhat to sexual, uh sin or or just sexuality in general and so many of them see sex as a outflow of original sin.

So if a person has sex even in the confines of marriage. It's not necessarily sinful today, but it is an effect of the sin of original sin essentially. Which is not what the bible teaches the bible teaches that sex was designed by god given to us as a gift for the uh.

You know perpetual growth of humanity. It was a creation mandate go be fruitful and multiply, you know. You know sex is a is a creation mandate. It's not a deviation from god's original plan. Uh, but roman catholicism kind of looks at at sex as a as a dirty Thing and they say well, it's kind of a necessary evil, but because of their view of sex and sexuality.

They say well if mary had sex that would tarnish her her immaculate state. Right, so not only does she have to be immaculate, you know from birth, you know, perfect in order to be the god bearer. But now she also has to maintain that perpetual state of immaculate Conception right so she has to be perpetually immaculate.

That's how the church puts it. And if she has sex and if she had children uh that would tarnish her immaculate state because they see sex as a tarnishing of of Of of perfection, which is why again, there's celibacy within the priesthood of the roman catholic church is one of the reasons.

They would say that this is talking about. Uh, you know the the disciples are the spiritual brothers of christ now as the actual brothers of christ. Uh, but i'm gonna we're gonna exegete this text and show why that's not the case.

You had something to say. Yeah. Yes absolutely. Because part of the marriage covenant is the consummation of it, which is sexual relations and if you don't have That consummation barring extreme circumstances.

You are actually breaking the covenant and so, um. By withholding sexual relations, uh within the confines and and bounds of marriage you are you are defiling the covenant. And so, uh, yeah, it's certainly a a big issue um.

Yeah, anything else on that well, that's a good point. It's a very good point. So when mary is viewed as perpetually immaculate. She cannot bear other children other than christ. But in this text and there's more like this.

That seemed to indicate that christ had brothers. What do roman catholics do with this. Well again their response is this is a reference to the disciples his his spiritual brothers. I think that is far from the case because notice again the text verse 8 19 of luke of luke 8.

Then his mother and his brothers Came to him. But they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told your mother and your brothers are standing outside the zion to see you. So you have the the the family bond that people are appealing to.

Hey mom and brothers are here. They want to see you. Notice what he says in verse 21. My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of god and do it. He says. So so what christ is doing is what I pointed out in my sermon last week.

He's superseding the the family bond. He's saying the blood relation the family bond. Is superseded? By him who puts faith in god's word and does it okay? So it would not make sense in the text if this was a reference to the spiritual brothers.

Because that's what he goes on to elevate in the next verse in verse 21. He elevates the spiritual bond of brotherhood over the familiar bond of Of of blood relation, right? So he's elevating one over the other that would be just Nonsensical if it was the disciples who were already his spiritual brothers.

The one that he was referenced that were being referenced here as the brothers. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, it just it doesn't make any sense to the text it doesn't do the text any justice. Clearly what's at stake here is.

What christ is elevating is the spiritual bond of the believer? Over the family bond. And so he goes on to do this other places in the new testament as well where jesus elevates. Um, obviously the spiritual bond over the physical bond.

So this would make no sense if if the brothers were in fact already the disciples, um, his point would be mute. Does that make sense? So so so pretty clearly not what jesus was was trying to get at here when he uh.

You know, it was clearly it is a family bond. It is his actual brother and sisters. Uh, you know, what's interesting is actually so the word here in the greek maybe you see in your footnotes in your bible depending on the um Translation, uh when it says your brothers are here, uh, and his brothers came to him.

It says brothers and sisters in the testament usage depending on the context of plural greek word. I'll defoy uh can be referred to as brothers and sisters may refer to. Uh, you know both sexes essentially.

So essentially it's almost it's almost like gender neutral in a sense um. But in the and they've used this roman catholicism have used this to say, oh you see well, there you go. Uh, this is clearly a reference to the the the brothers and sisters of christ spiritually speaking um.

But again, I reject that view because depending on the context. This word can be defined as brothers and sisters. Yes, that's true. Or just brothers and in fact, uh in the masculine world of the greco-roman empire.

It usually mostly refers to as uh as male members of the family brothers. But we use this we have the same conundrum in english too where a lot of churches especially in the old english world Would use the term brethren is brethren inclusive of women as well.

Yes. And so we understand this is a catch-all phrase for both sexes. It's like when we talk about when man fell into sin. Well, does that include womankind as well? Of course it does. Uh, and so, uh, we understand that the the masculine term is the dominant term.

So the dominant term can can encompass the two sexes, okay. Um, but it's not exclusive. It's not always mutually exclusive, but it all depends on the context of the verse. And so I would say the context of this verse clearly demonstrates that this is talking about jesus's actual brothers.

And con he contrasts that with his spiritual brothers in verse 21. So I think that's a good exegesis of the text. That brings us to a right understanding of this issue. Any other thoughts or questions on this?

Whether the Brothers in Luke 8 Are Jesus' Biological Siblings

Is the term immaculate conception found in the bible? That's an easy one, right? It's not found in the bible now as roman catholicism would argue. Well neither is the term trinity but clearly. The concept is found in the bible.

What would be your best argument for a biblical case for the immaculate conception? Let's try to be charitable and put ourselves in the role of a roman catholic and let's see. If uh, if we can make that case.

What's the best case we can come up with for immaculate conception? Yeah for the roman catholic side. It's implicit. Not explicit. Similar to maybe the doctrine of the trinity, right? So there is no formulation of the trinity.

Outside of the what's called the johannion comma, which is 1st. John 5 13, which is a spurious text. It's not probably Uh authentic new testament verse of the bible. Which says there are three that bear record in heaven the father the word and the holy ghost and these three are one man, I really wish that was like authentically scripture.

Uh, because that would make my case a lot easier to make as a trinitarian. But I don't need that text in order to be a good trinitarian. Because there are so many other verses of the bible that point to the trinity.

But it is in to some regard implicit not an explicit doctrine of the bible. Is the same true of the immaculate conception. Let me make an argument for it. Uh colossians chapter 2 why don't we turn there for a moment.

And in colossians chapter 2. In verse 9 it says. For in him this is reference to christ. The whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. And you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority.

So christ is himself the fullness of deity in bodily form that term their deity. So in the greek there's greek is an interesting language because there's depending on the structure of the sentence the proposition you know god can be.

There's basically different terms for god we just have one term we use god in english. And we use it so much that it kind of loses its meaning but in The greek there's kind of like four ways you can say god theos theon theotodus.

And uh, I forget what the fourth one is, but there's there's basically four ways of saying god in greek. This one is theotis. Which is of theotis which is uh, deity. And the word when you break it down actually means that which makes god god.

Okay. Essence that's right. So the argument from the roman catholic perspective would be this. If jesus is god. The that which makes god god the fullness of that is in jesus in his body. That means that the one who brought him to the world has to herself be somewhat divine.

Which is where you begin to see the seeds of maryology and Roman catholicism has indeed elevated mary to the status of a goddess. Another scripture that they would that they would use is revelation chapter 12.

Won't you turn there? Maybe a few months ago. I was talking to a roman catholic couple um who I consider. Well, they're kind of friend i'm friendly with them and We're having this great discussion on mary.

And this was their go-to text and I found this really interesting like this was their go-to text. So, you know, most roman catholics don't know the bible very well. This these folks at least knew to quote some scripture.

Which i'm always impressed with when a roman catholic is able to do at least some quotation of scripture because usually they're pretty terrible at it. But let's look at verse 1 of revelation 12. And a great sign appeared in heaven.

A woman clothed the sun with the moon under her feet and her head a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains in the agony of giving birth. Another sign appeared in heaven behold a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.

His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast him to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth and so that when she bore her child He might devour it. She gave birth to a male child.

King. James says a man a man child. One who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was caught up to god and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by god in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days.

This is a fascinating text of scripture. First you have this woman who's adorned basically she she is heavenly. She's she's she has attributes That are usually only given to christ or to god. Among them is she's clothed with stars.

Okay, these are descriptions are usually used of yahweh in the new in the old testament um. She's clothed the sun the moon under her feet. This is this is celestial uh divine language. And so one could read this and say okay this person seems very important she's pregnant.

She gives birth the one who she gives birth to is one who's to rule the nations. Who could that be? Who's the ruler of the nations of the earth? The lord jesus christ. So would it be wrong to say that this is mary?

Okay, that's one view. So would it be would it would it be unfair? Or would it be fair to say that this could be at least? Possibly mary. Yeah, it's okay. Like we can say yeah, I mean On the on the face reading of this this that seems totally reasonable to me.

I can't wait to go through revelation of you guys because i've got this whole study on it. Yeah. Uh, no, we got baptism and then maybe after that that'll be next um I'm giving connelly some time to catch up to me on revelation.

Um. Here's here's my view of this text. This text is actually This woman the woman of this text Is actually a representation of three women. Okay. Clearly I will concede to catholics in this clearly Mary is among them.

Mary is the one who of course god chose she gave birth to the male Child jesus christ the ruler of the nations of the earth. Um, and so clearly mary's in view, but it's not only mary notice the language.

She's clothed with the sun the moon under her feet and her head a crown of 12 stars. This is also a clear reference to israel 12 stars being the 12 tribes of israel israel according to paul in romans chapter 9 verse 5 that from israel christ who is god sprang forth who is Who christ who is god overall forever blessed amen, that's what romans 9 5 says so clearly Israel is in view israel is also spoken of as a woman.

And she is the one who gives birth to the messiah. She's the one who brings forth the messiah and this third woman. That's in views actually eve in fulfillment of genesis chapter 3. When jehovah says to mary that from your seed Will come essentially the savior of the world.

And so the three women that are in view is eve mary and israel. That's what we're seeing here. And actually it culminates In the one woman, which is heavenly jerusalem. Okay. So the woman here really truly is heavenly jerusalem.

God's heavenly government god's church of the two dispensations the old and new covenant. Okay. That's the woman who gives birth. Okay to christ. And I would actually say that verses 1 through 6 is a synopsis of the virgin birth life ministry death burial resurrection of jesus christ.

Okay. So those six verses you have essentially a time lapse of the entire life of jesus. And that's what's in view in the first six verses here of revelation chapter 12. But on the face value. Yeah, mary fits this mary fits this for sure, but it's not just mary that's in view here.

Mary is merely a a picture foreshadow of the true woman. That is the israel of god. That is the heavenly jerusalem. Does that make sense? That's right. It's it culminates in the the the one woman that god has Of the two dispensations, you know the faithful israel of god of which the new covenant people are members of.

Any thoughts or questions on that? But that's basically the best case that one could make for The immaculate conception for a exalted view of mary. It's revelation chapter 12. Right. That's the strongest go-to verse.

And even that I would say Falls woefully short because where do you have this woman here in revelation 12 being the co-mediatrix of heaven? Where do you have her being the? Having been immaculate Conceived herself.

Where is it? Where does it speak of her? You know all these things that rome adds to mary it's it's absent. Again they'd have to extrapolate In order to get there in order to get to certain Views any thoughts or questions on that verse though is a pretty interesting verse revelation chapter 12.

And actually what's interesting. So again in this text in revelation 12 It says There's a there's a dragon. That dragon is representation of who? Satan, right so here's you have to understand like all the imageries That's viewed in revelation has a Exegetical Fulfillment there's there is a there's something to it.