April 22, 2026 Show with Kori Pennypacker on “Hope for Christian Parents Who Cannot Home School or Afford Private Christian School” PLUS Jeremiah Nortier on “A Review of the Water Baptism for Salvation Debate”

Introduction and Salvation Testimony

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day of April 2025, and I'm thrilled to have a first-time guest today with a very interesting name, Corey Pennypacker, and Corey is the chief executive officer of a ministry called Bible to School, which is spelled out Bible the number two school, and that ministry became introduced to me by Ron Jones, who is on the staff there now.

Ron Jones attends a weekly Bible study that I attend conducted by the Christian Businessmen's Connection, and Ron told me about this wonderful organization, and he even co-hosted my program once when we were both interviewing a Ukrainian Reformed Baptist pastor in Ukraine, and because of Ron's experience on the mission field in Ukraine.

But I figured this, since Ron convinced me that this is such a wonderful organization, I figured I'd have the CEO on today, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Corey Pennypacker.

Thank you, Chris. It's an honor to be here as well, and I like Ron too.

Yeah, he's a great guy. Well, first of all, I'm sure it's on everybody's mind, can you give us the ethnic origin of Pennypacker?

Can I? I can. I'm married into it, so that would be there. It's Dutch, and it means tile maker. Pannenbacher means tile maker in Dutch. And the other claim to fame is that Governor Senior Pennypacker is somewhere in the tree line, but he knew Teddy Roosevelt, and he was at that time in the early 1900s, and he renovated the Harrisburg capital of Pennsylvania, so it's all beautiful, and it was a Pennypacker who was involved in that.

I'm wondering what the actual origins of that name are in your husband's history, though. I heard that the Dutch have a history or a stereotype of being tight with the buck, as they say, so Pennypacker, maybe somehow related to that.

I am not stating a word, not a single word.

Well, we have a tradition here. Before we have you get in further depth and detail on the back-to-school ministry, we have a tradition here, whenever we have a first-time guest, such as yourself, that guest will give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

I'd love to tell it. I was raised in a wealthy and Christian home. However, I went to church, and it was very traditional, very works-based. It was liturgical, the same thing every week, and I did not really grab onto faith there.

To me, it was kind of my turning point, really, a seed that was planted, as we talk about in children's ministry, your seeds are planted in children. I was in fourth grade, and I was invited to a Christian camp by a neighbor.

And I didn't even know anything about the camp or anything, but I begged my mom, you know, please, please, please let me go. And they did. And I went there, and the big thing I remember, Chris, was that they were happy.

They were excited about God. They were just kind and happy and joyful. And they, I don't exactly remember all they taught me, but they worshiped outside. And I thought, whoa, you can't do that. It's very, you know, very rigid, you know.

And it was just a really great, and they talked about God anywhere, anytime, and they talked about Jesus like they knew Him. And fast forward, I met my husband at the Naval Academy. He was a Navy guy, and he was different than all the other guys that I had dated.

He talked about Jesus anywhere, anytime. He had a joy in his heart, and I just was amazed that he kept saying, well, you don't have to be good enough to get saved. You don't have to do things. And I was brought up, well, it's not that easy.

You got to be good enough to get to heaven. And so I didn't realize the burden I was carrying. It was a heavy load. And when I heard the gospel, really that little seed that was planted when I was in fourth grade rose again, rose up again in my 20s.

And he, being a Navy wife, you know, shout out to any military wives or military spouses out there. It is a hard job. And he was away a lot. He was on deployment. We went through some of the conflicts, and he was out at sea, and I was alone a lot.

And so I actually explored my faith then with another military wife, and she would answer my questions. I'm like, well, what about this and what about that? She like opened the Bible and talked to me, and she had that joy.

She had that love of Jesus and talked about him like she actually knew him. And so that really attracted me. So I went to a woman's Bible study and got just totally drawn in. And within a year after getting married to my husband, I became saved.

I just couldn't resist the pull of that joy and just knowing Jesus. And I just, I argued a point. I argued it pretty good. If you know me, Chris, at all, you'll know that I want to know the real truth.

I want to know the real deal. And I argued it pretty well, because I thought you had to be good enough to get to heaven. And really, Jesus did that for us. He was good enough so that we could be rescued and get to heaven.

So that's my story.

And I understand you're a member of Grace Church in Lidditz, Pennsylvania?

I am. I am.

Hopefully one of these days soon, I'll be able to meet your pastors, because I do have a free biannual pastor's luncheon, and a couple of hundred men come to that twice a year. And I have guest speakers, and I give away free brand-new books that are donated by generous publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom.

And it's just a wonderful time, and I'd love for them to attend sometime. And we have a next one coming up in October, October 1st, actually, at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

So it'd be great to meet them.

Absolutely. We'll have to get you together.

Bible2School and How Release Time Works

Yeah. Well, this is a very important ministry, Bible to school, because although there are a number of Christians that prefer the homeschool route and prefer private Christian schools, the reality is not every parent is capable of either homeschooling or being able to afford a private Christian school.

So tell our listeners about this wonderful way that is somewhat of an alternative to those when people are compelled to send their own children to a public school.

Sure. Well, I have to tell you that 87 percent of all Christian parents send their kids to public school, and the parent is the right answer. So homeschool, private school, public school, whatever the answer they come to, between them and God is the right answer.

But what we do at Bible to school is we minister to those families that have chosen public school because we help them help communities bring the Bible. We equip communities to bring the Bible to public school children, not before school, not after school, but during their public school day, during public school hours.

And I'm sure a lot of your listeners are saying, what is that legal? How is that legal? How can they do this? Bible to school has been doing this for over 45 years. So it is definitely in our laws. It's called release time, federal release time court rulings that allow us to do this.

And what happened was the Bible was a reader in school a long time ago. Everybody had one. Think Little House on the Prairie. And public schools had them and used them. But however, at the early 1900s, there was a movement to take them out.

And at that time, that's when the federal release time court rulings came about, where you can release them, which is not a prison ministry, you release them off-site from their campus to go to a Bible elective or religious training of their choice.

Ours is a non-denominational Bible elective. So there's three things that make it legal. It has to be off-site, has to have parental permission, and no tax dollars can be used. So those three things, off-site, parental permission, and no tax dollars, make it legal federally in all 50 states.

There are 50 states.

All 50 states, yeah. There are some caveats to different, like in Pennsylvania, the states say, OK, you got to do those three things, but you can't do any more than 26 hours a year, or sorry, 36 hours a year.

So there's just different, and in Virginia, they have where you have to have the school board approve it. So there's different little caveats in some of the states. But federally, you can do this in any state.

And that's what we do. We equip communities to do that and bring our program into, and it's a one-hour-a-week program, Chris. It's not that long, but it is powerful and packs a punch. And we know that people think that God was taken out of public school.

Well, there's no place and no power on heaven and earth that can keep God from any place. And so release time is very much what our organization has taken advantage of that. And we're praying that all 50 states would do that so it's available.

But we started in 1979, and I thought this was interesting, by a group of pastors. And they started because, in response to divorce, that most of the kids were going to church, got to go to church on the weekend.

Because most people say, well, why do you do this when they can go to church on the weekend? Well, only 30 of our country goes to church. So what does that mean for kids? They're not hearing it. They don't know who is Jesus.

I've never heard of them. And so, but in 1979, they were going to church, but the divorce kids, they would go from one house to the other different weekends, and they would miss church. So that's what the heart, they really want this group, have the heart of making sure these kids heard about Jesus wherever they were.

And the nice part about release time is that it happens in the middle of a school day during school hours, typically over lunch and recess. Sometimes it could be any time of day, but it's convenient for parents.

They don't have to pick them up or drop them off. You're in school, you come to Bible to school, and you hear the gospel. So that is what they were in. This Bible to school was in one school district for 30 years.

And then all of a sudden, I, part of my story is that I, when we get out of the military, we moved back home to where my favorite babysitters are, they're called grandparents. And yes. And they, so I ended up becoming a children's ministry director at a church.

And my husband was just in his job, was starting to travel. And so I was, you know, learning all about how to lead children's ministry, but he was traveling and I didn't get to see him very much. So we're like, okay, we just did this in the military.

We think we're civilian world. So I ended up stepping down. And that's when this organization invited me to come in just to volunteer, just to check it out. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I used to wait for kids to come to me.

And now we get to go to them, we get to be the church that goes to them. So I started out as a volunteer. And that's just the time, 15 years ago, when they wanted to move into different school districts.

And to start, we're like, wow, we could teach other people to do this everywhere. So that is kind of how it kind of came about.

Now you mentioned before that different states have different rules, that some may be more strict and constricting, some may be more loose on this whole issue. I was surprised to hear that there may be an extra level of strictness, unless I misunderstood you.

In Pennsylvania, of all places, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, William Penn, known to be a Quaker who wanted religious freedom in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania because of his own group, the Quakers, being persecuted.

Why on earth does Pennsylvania have a stricter code when it comes to this?

Well, actually, 36 hours a year is not that huge of a strict code. We do it once a week for one hour. And we do it for 25 weeks because the school year is, you know, you have snow days and you have field trips and all those things.

And so, yeah, actually the stricter states are the ones that have to have the school districts approve it because different school districts, maybe one school district will say, yes, you can come in. And another school district next door says, no, you can't do this.

And that really is like one school district has religious freedom and the other one doesn't, you know. So it's actually something going on right now. Those are called, they may have a release time rule or they shall have a release time rule.

And Pennsylvania has, is a shall state, they shall have a release time rule. And it is positive toward us. Their only restriction is 36 hours, but that doesn't affect us because we do it for 25 hours, 25 weeks.

Yes, I wasn't implying that the amount of hours that you are able to bless and educate children with in this program is too restrictive, but I was misunderstanding perhaps that Pennsylvania was stricter on this.

Oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, it is not. It is actually, it's a very friendly state for release time, definitely. People always ask me though, and maybe you were going to ask the same thing, is what do our educators say about this and what do they, what do they do?

They normally, they're, they're hesitant at first. They're like, wait a minute, you're bringing what into my school? What is this? And the parents want it. So it is a, it is a, you know, freedom of the children to have a religious class.

It could be any religion, you know, so it could be Muslim or Jewish or, but like I said, we are the non-denominational Christian arm of that. And you know, parents are happy that, so they bring it before the school, you know, for the school and we help them do that and they don't know about it.

So most of the time it's, they don't know you can do this. So we're educating, kindly educating the educators. And once we get in there and work well with them, is very, there are good relationships happening and you're not going to hear that very much, are you?

We get along really well with public schools. We are giving them morals and values. Kids, we hear from educators that kids come back kinder and more, more, more respectful.

Wow.

Yeah, it is definitely something that has impacted the schools and we've heard it from the school administrators and we didn't solicit it. They come to us and say, we can tell the difference with these kids.

So that's pretty amazing. You would think that there would be such a anti-Christian bias that they wouldn't even want to admit it if it were true. And perhaps there are still some that refuse to admit it, but they know it's true.

Well, there's always, you know, some bad actors everywhere. But what we have found is that nine times out of 10, they just don't know the law. So if they're pushing back on us and saying, whoa, wait a minute, it's because they don't know the law.

And they talk to the solicitor and their solicitor comes back and says, yeah, this is something that is legal and they can offer this under these parameters. And we want everybody to stay in their legal lane,.

Chris, we really do.

How Bible2School Is Run and What Children Experience

Well tell us about the nuts and bolts of exactly how this works. What exactly is happening and what is your staff doing and who these kids are, how they find out about what you're doing and et cetera.

Sure. Well, so a typical day in the life of Bible to School in this program is that you have volunteers and they come and the off-site location is usually within a five to 10 minute walk or bus ride because one hour includes travel time.

So really our program is 40 minutes. So they have that time and they set up, it's either a church or a youth center that is involved. So the community gets involved in this and it's kind of fun. And then they go and they pick up the children from school and it all starts there.

It's all about relationships. Like, how was your week? We prayed for your grandmother, how's she doing? And these small group leaders, these group leaders are absolutely connecting with the kids because we believe that the gospel is transmitted through relationships.

And that's what we're doing every week, same small group leader. So they go and they take their lunches and they go to, say, like a church and they have round tables and their kids are getting their lunch together and they're opening and crackling paper and all that stuff.

And the large group teacher teaches the Bible lesson for 20 minutes. And the kids are, even though they're moving, you know, kids, they're still engaged. They hear every word and they say they do like a story about Jonah and the whale.

We have, it's all hands-on. So think of us as very VBS like, using all the five senses. We have a big giant blow up whale that the second graders go inside of, it's 30 foot.

Long.

Sight and Sound has helped us and others, Lancaster Bible College has helped us figure out how to design these and we teach people how to do it. It's a black and white gardening paper, duct tape and a fan.

And we have a whole, so when kids are like, I went inside the belly of a whale today, they really did go inside the belly of a whale today and they learn about Jonah. And then they come back out to their small groups.

And this is the 15 minutes with our small groups where they have a think about it question, which is unique to Bible school all over the country. No one has this. And we say, you know, how does God give second chances is to think about a question.

And the kids discuss it and say, well, how did God give Jonah second chances? And one of the things we did, we did in a small group is we have this ice bucket. And you, you were a second grade boy, man, this is cool stuff, man.

You're putting your, and they said, put your hand in the ice bucket of water and see how long you can keep it in because Jonah was thrown into cold water, right? So you put your hands in and then take it, figure out how long you take it out.

And then you put second time around, you put it on a blubber glove and disgusting rubber glove with Crisco lard, two rubber gloves with Crisco lard in the middle. And you put it in and they, uh, then you can keep it in longer.

And so kids are like, oh wow. And then you go right into the gospel of like, this is what God saved Jonah this way. He gave a second chance. This is what Jesus did for you. And kids get saved left and right just because the light bulb goes on.

We have kids ask to us, you know, I never knew God made me and you know, that just blew their minds and, or who is God? I've never heard of him. Or some kids, a lot of kids think that Jesus is a swear word.

So 53 of our kids this year and consistently half every year are unchurched. So they have no, most of them have no church home. Um, and we're teaching you about Jesus for the very first time. So we have that large group, uh, we have that small group with a think about it question, large group Bible, think about a question.

And then we have worship and prayer. And most kids, people don't realize this. Kids don't know how to worship. You teach them how to worship, you worship, you teach them how to pray. And all this is done in 40 minutes with them eating their lunch.

So it is unbelievable, um, the stories we have, um, I had a little boy named Gabriel who came back from large group and just sat and he was, had a big smile on his face and he had accepted Christ as his savior.

And we, we do, we introduce that to children. It's not a pressure, but he really wanted to do it. He did it that day. And I said, Gabriel, tell me about that. And he said, he said something I'll never forget.

And I truly get chucked up every time I think about it. Little blonde, blue eyed, curly haired boy. He said, I've always wanted to get to heaven, but no one's ever told me. And I thought this child lives a couple minutes from my house and he doesn't know it.

And he's in our, he's in our public schools. This is a mission field. This is a mission field because kids are not hearing about the Bible in our culture.

Parental Permission, Public School Parents, and Preparing Children for School

Now, why on earth are these obviously unbelieving parents allowing you to pick up their kids from public school to bring them to a church location for Christian education?

Now, James Dawson said it best, is that it doesn't matter if you're Christian parents or non-Christian parents, you want the best for your child. So they look at this as a very positive program of, you know, biblical morals and values.

But also it's back to that convenience. They don't have to pick them up or drop them off. It's fun. A Bible to school has hands on, we do science experiments where they act out the Bible stories, they dress up.

Kids come back from, from school, you know, from Bible to school to school and they're like, man, you don't want to miss this. So imagine being a fourth grade boy, fifth grade boy and not wanting, and this is over lunch and recess, and you'd rather go to Bible to school than do recess.

And that's what happens all the time. So we are, we know that we're hitting that mark, but they are getting solid biblical teaching. We tell them, you know, God, God created them and made them and loves them and everything out there, you know, as well as I do, Chris, is they're after their identity.

They're after who you are. And they get these kids grab onto that. God made them. God loves them. God has a plan and a purpose for their life. Jesus Christ died for their sins. And if they repent from their sins and give their life to him, that they will be in heaven with him someday.

And, and he's always with them because the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit. And so God is always with them. And they're like, they're a whole countenance changes like they're when they come to Christ and when they learn that, wow, you know, God's this one little girl said this year, she said, God's God died for me, for me.

And you just think these precious little ones are so wide open to the gospel. And that's the other thing, Chris, that your listeners might want to know is that we started, we were elementary school where we do second through sixth grade because the window for kids and if you're a youth pastor out there, the window for, for people to come to know Christ is the most Christians have done is in ages four to 14 window.

That's when their actual morals and values are shaped in their, their brains. And they're just like after 14, you got to change their mind. I tell pastors all the time, I have an easier job than you do.

And so that's, that's really why we hit it that young. And you try, like I said, try to use all their five senses. That safe space for them to ask spiritual questions in that small group is golden. They don't have that anywhere.

And we fulfill that for them.

Launching a Bible2School Program in Your Community

When we come back to our first commercial break, I would like you to help our listeners from all over the United States, because we do have a national audience. We actually have a global audience. But to help them, if they, I'm sure that most of them have never heard of this program.

I never heard of it until my friend Ron Jones told me he just started working for you. But I'm sure that there are pastors and deacons and Christian parents all over the United States who are saying, you mean we could evangelize children in the public school system?

We could legally do this? And they're not even aware of it. And I'd like you to basically give them all the information they need in the state that they're in to launch these programs, because they may be non-existent in many of these states where our listeners live.

But we'll have you do that when we come back from our first commercial break. And don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune God.

We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.

We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org. That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net. That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hello, this is Brian Nye, president of Hearts for the Lost ministry. Our sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite and educate their flock in biblical evangelism.

We also provide practical experience opportunities in sharing the gospel directly within your immediate community. We accomplish this mission with training and Christ-centered outreach events designed to equip the church and proclaim the good news of the gospel.

Our services are always 100 free. If you're looking to equip and mobilize your church for faithful gospel witness, please partner with us. Hearts for the Lost ministry, serving the church, proclaiming the gospel.

Contact us today at heartsforthelost .com. That's heartsforthelost .com. Now have a heart and go share your faith. This program is sponsored by Hope PR Ministry. Hope PR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan.

We are dedicated to sharing reformed biblical content every Wednesday and Friday. Tune in for sermons, lectures and interviews exploring distinctive reformed doctrines. If you are looking for Christ-centered content, simply search Hope PR Ministry on your favorite podcast platform to begin listening today.

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I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show. But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders, far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia.

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By the way, folks, I just want to let you know that since Corey Pennepacker, our first guest, could only be on with us for the first hour, please stay tuned for the second hour as well, as my guest will be a returning guest, my friend Jeremiah Nortier, pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

He's going to be talking about his upcoming debates. He's going to be talking about some Bible conferences and all kinds of things, so please make sure you stay tuned for the second hour as well. Corey, as I was saying before the break, I'm sure that there are many people that are listening.

There may be pastors listening all over the United States, and I'm sure there are, because we have many pastors in our audience nationally and even globally who are thinking, wow, I've got to see if I could take advantage of this and get this program started with our church and so on.

What do they need to do? What are the qualifications? I'm sure there's some kind of vetting process, just as there are legal vetting processes when you have people who are providing child care in churches.

They have to be investigated and so on legally. So just tell us about all of that.

Yes, all the volunteers have to be background checked, but the process for us is that you would come to Bible2School .com, Bible2School .com, contact us, and we would walk you through a four-step process to become what we call a Bible2School member.

And what you do is you're going to be—we will equip you with all the tools you need and coaching and a website. And that's what I wished I had when I started all that live coaching, to start this on your own community.

We have you build a leadership team in your community. It is—one church cannot do it alone. It is a community approach, so we actually pull business leaders in, we pull parents and church leaders in, and we have a formula, a secret sauce that we guide you through to start these.

And we've planted them all over Pennsylvania. We have in Idaho, Texas, and North Carolina, and we have 15 other states that we're working with as well. So it is tried and true, but our curriculum, we have, like I said, second through sixth grade year curriculum.

It's all age-appropriate, and it is fabulous with this think about it question, this time for kids to have a safe place for spiritual questions. We would walk you through how to recruit volunteers, and we have all the best practices, just like a franchise model.

We have all the best practices for you, over 450 tools. So yeah, it is a journey. We work with us, and you kind of become part of our team, and we equip the body of Christ out there, and you own your own program.

We teach you how to raise funding for the program in the community. And community business leaders, I got to tell you, they step up to the plate because these are their future employees. So the church also, the benefit for them is that they're engaging the business leaders in the community, all centered around getting the gospel to children.

And people pay attention when Christian churches and business leaders and parents all work together, all to benefit children. And so I highly recommend just exploring this with us at Bible2School .com.

And do you have any advice or counsel for a local group of Christians, pastors and business leaders, as you were mentioning, who want to get this launched in their home city, and they're getting a pushback, maybe people on the school board, it may be other people involved in the local public schools?

There is a lot of ignorance in our day, and I'm sure for many decades, about the separation of church and state. People are very confused and don't understand what that actually meant. They think it's a part of the Constitution when it's not.

It was actually a promise by Thomas Jefferson to Baptists that the government would not interfere in their free conduct of expressing their religion in the way that they believe the Bible taught them to.

So do you have any counsel on that when people may push back? And do you have stories of that happening that you can recall?