April 22, 2026 Show with Kori Pennypacker on “Hope for Christian Parents Who Cannot Home School or Afford Private Christian School” PLUS Jeremiah Nortier on “A Review of the Water Baptism for Salvation Debate”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day of April 2025, and I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today with a very interesting name,

Corey Pennypacker. And Corey is the chief executive officer of a ministry called

Bible to School, which is spelled out Bible the number two school, and that ministry became introduced to me by Ron Jones, who is on the staff there now.

Ron Jones attends a weekly Bible study that I attend, conducted by the

Christian Businessmen's Connection, and Ron told me about this wonderful organization, and he even co -hosted my program once when we were both interviewing a

Ukrainian Reformed Baptist pastor in Ukraine, and because of Ron's experience on the mission field in Ukraine.

But I figured this, since Ron convinced me that this is such a wonderful organization,

I figured I'd have the CEO on today, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Corey Pennypacker. Thank you, Chris. It's an honor to be here as well.

I like Ron, too. Yeah, he's a great guy. Well, first of all, I'm sure it's on everybody's mind.

Can you give us the ethnic origin of Pennypacker? I can.

I'm married into it, so that would be there. It's Dutch, and it means tilemaker.

Pannenbacher means tilemaker in Dutch. And the other claim to fame is that Governor Senior Pennypacker is somewhere in the tree line, but he knew

Teddy Roosevelt, and he was at that time in the early 1900s, and he renovated the

Harrisburg capital of Pennsylvania. So it's all beautiful, and it was a

Pennypacker who was involved in that. I'm wondering what the actual origins of that name are in your husband's history, though.

I heard that the Dutch have a history or a stereotype of being tight with the buck, as they say.

So Pennypacker, maybe somehow related to that. I am not stating a word, not a single word.

Well, we have a tradition here. Before we have you get in further depth and detail on the back -to -school ministry, we have a tradition here.

Whenever we have a first -time guest, such as yourself, that guest will give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them. And I would love to hear your story.

I'd love to tell it. I was raised in a wealthy and Christian home.

However, I went to church, and it was very traditional, very works -based.

It was liturgical, the same thing every week.

And I did not really grab onto faith there. To me, it was kind of my turning point, really, a seed that was planted, as we talk about in children's ministry, your seeds are planted in children.

I was in fourth grade, and I was invited to a Christian camp by a neighbor.

And I didn't even know anything about the camp or anything, but I begged my mom, you know, please, please, please let me go.

And they did, and I went there. And the big thing I remember,

Chris, was that they were happy. They were excited about God.

They were just kind and happy and joyful. And they—I don't exactly remember all they taught me, but they worshipped outside.

And I thought, whoa, you can't do that. It's very, you know, very rigid, you know. And it was just a really great—and they talked about God anywhere, anytime.

And they talked about Jesus like they knew Him. And fast forward, I met my husband at the

Naval Academy. He was a Navy guy, and he was different than all the other guys that I had dated.

He, you know, talked about Jesus anywhere, anytime. He had a joy in his heart.

And I just was amazed that he kept saying, well, you don't have to be good enough to get saved.

You don't have to do things. And, well, it's not—I was brought up, well, it's not that easy. You've got to be good enough to get to heaven.

And so I didn't realize the burden I was carrying. It was a heavy load. And when

I heard the gospel, really, that little seed that was planted when I was in fourth grade rose again, rose up again in my 20s.

And he, being a Navy wife—you know, shout out to any military wives or military spouses out there.

It is a hard job. And he was away a lot. He was on deployment. We went through some of the conflicts, and he was out at sea.

And I was alone a lot. And so I actually explored my faith then with another military wife.

And she would answer my questions. I'm like, well, what about this and what about that? She'd like open the

Bible and talk to me. And she had that joy. She had that, you know, love of Jesus and talked about him like she actually knew him.

And so that really attracted me. So I went to a woman's Bible study and got just totally drawn in.

And within a year after getting married to my husband, I became saved. I just couldn't resist the pull of that joy and just knowing

Jesus. And I just, I argued a point. I argued it pretty good. If you know me, Chris, at all, you'll know that I want to know the real truth.

I want to know the real deal. And I argued it pretty well because I thought you had to be good enough to get to heaven.

And really, Jesus did that for us. He was good enough so that we could be rescued and get to heaven.

So that's my story. And I understand you're a member of Grace Church in Lidditz, Pennsylvania?

I am. I am. Hopefully one of these days soon I'll be able to meet your pastors because I do have a free biannual pastor's luncheon.

And a couple of hundred men come to that twice a year. And I have guest speakers.

And I give away free brand -new books that are donated by generous publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. And it's just a wonderful time. I'd love for them to attend sometime.

And we have a next one coming up in October. October 1st, actually, at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. So it would be great to meet them.

Absolutely. We'll have to get you together. Yeah. Well, this is a very important ministry,

Bible to school, because although there are a number of Christians that prefer the homeschool route and prefer private

Christian schools, the reality is not every parent is capable of either homeschooling or being able to afford a private

Christian school. So tell our listeners about this wonderful way that is somewhat of an alternative to those when people are compelled to send their own children to a public school.

Sure. Well, I have to tell you that 87 percent of all Christian parents send their kids to public school.

And the parent is the right answer. So homeschool, private school, public school, whatever the answer they come to between them and God is the right answer.

But what we do at Bible to School is we minister to those families that have chosen public school because we help communities bring the

Bible. We equip communities to bring the Bible to public school children, not before school, not after school, but during their public school day, during public school hours.

And I'm sure a lot of your listeners are saying, what, is that legal? How is that legal? How can they do this?

Bible to School has been doing this for over 45 years. So it is definitely in our laws.

It's called release time, federal release time court rulings that allow us to do this.

And what happened was the Bible was a reader in school a long time ago. Everybody had one, think

Little House on the Prairie. And public schools had them and used them.

But, however, at the early 1900s, there was a movement to take them out. And at that time, that's when the federal release time court rulings came about, where you can release them, which is not a prison ministry, you release them off -site from their campus to go to a

Bible elective or religious training of their choice. Ours is a non -denominational Bible elective.

So there's three things that make it legal. It has to be off -site, has to have parental permission, and no tax dollars can be used.

So those three things, off -site, parental permission, and no tax dollars, make it legal federally in all 50 states.

All 50 states? All 50 states, yeah. There are some caveats to different, like in Pennsylvania, the states say, okay, you've got to do those three things, but you can't do any more than 26 hours a year.

Sorry, 36 hours a year. So there's just different in Virginia, where you have to have the school board approve it.

So there's different little caveats in some of the states, but federally you can do this in any state, and that's what we do.

We equip communities to do that and bring our program into it.

And it's a one -hour -a -week program, Chris. It's not that long, but it is powerful and packs a punch.

And we know that people think that God was taken out of public school.

Well, there's no place and no power on heaven and earth that can keep God from any place. And so release time is very much what our organization has taken advantage of that.

And we're praying that all 50 states would do that so it's available. But we started in 1979, and I thought this was interesting.

It's by a group of pastors, and they started because in response to divorce, that most of the kids who were going to church got to go to church on the weekend.

Because most people say, well, why do you do this when they can go to church on the weekend? Well, only 30 percent of our country goes to church.

So what does that mean for kids? They're not hearing it. They don't know who is Jesus. I've never heard of them.

But in 1979, they were going to church, but the divorce kids, they would go from one house to the other different weekends, and they would miss church.

So that's what the heart, they really want this group, have the heart of making sure these kids heard about Jesus wherever they were.

And the nice part about release time is that it happens in the middle of a school day, during school hours, typically over lunch and recess.

Sometimes it could be any time of day, but it's convenient for parents. They don't have to pick them up or drop them off.

You're in school, you come to Bible to school, and you hear the gospel. So that is what they were in.

This Bible to school was in one school district for 30 years.

And then all of a sudden, part of my story is that when we get out of the military, we moved back home to where my favorite babysitters are.

They're called grandparents. So I ended up becoming a children's ministry director at a church.

And my husband was just in his job, was starting to travel.

And so I was learning all about how to lead children's ministry, but he was traveling.

And I didn't get to see him very much. So we're like, OK, we just did this in the military. We think we're civilian world.

So I ended up stepping down. And that's when this organization invited me to come in just to volunteer, just to check it out.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I used to wait for kids to come to me. And now we get to go to them.

We get to be the church that goes to them. So I started out as a volunteer. And that's just the time 15 years ago when they wanted to move into different school districts.

And to start, we're like, wow, we could teach other people to do this everywhere. So that is kind of how it kind of came about.

Now, you mentioned before that different states have different rules, that some may be more strict and constricting, some may be more loose on this whole issue.

I was surprised to hear that there may be an extra level of strictness, unless I misunderstood you.

In Pennsylvania, of all places, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, William Penn, known to be a

Quaker who wanted religious freedom in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania because of his own group, the

Quakers, being persecuted. Why on earth does Pennsylvania have a stricter code when it comes to this?

Well, actually, 36 hours a year is not that huge of a strict code.

We do it once a week for one hour, and we do it for 25 weeks because the school year is, you know, you have snow days and you have field trips and all those things.

And so, yeah, actually, the stricter states are the ones that have to have the school districts approve it because different school districts, maybe one school district will say, yes, you can come in.

Another school district next door says, no, you can't do this. And that really is like one school district has religious freedom and the other one doesn't.

So it's actually something going on right now. Those are called they may have a release time rule or they shall have a release time rule.

And Pennsylvania has, is a shall state. They shall have a release time rule, and it is positive toward us.

Their only restriction is 36 hours, but that doesn't affect us because we do it for 25 hours, 25 weeks.

Yes, I wasn't implying that. That the amount of hours that you are able to bless and educate children with in this program is too restrictive.

But I was misunderstanding, perhaps, that Pennsylvania was stricter on this. Oh, no,

I'm sorry. Yeah, it is not. It is actually it's a very friendly state for release time.

Definitely. There's people always ask me, though, maybe you are going to ask the same thing as whatever educators say about this.

And what do they what do they do? They normally they're they're hesitant at first.

Like, wait a minute. You're bringing what into my school? What is this? And the parents want it.

So it is a it is a freedom of the children to have a religious class.

It could be any religion, you know, so it could be Muslim or Jewish or. But like I said, we are the non -denominational

Christian arm of that. And, you know, parents are happy that so they bring it before the school for the school and we help them do that.

And they don't know about it. So most of the time it's they don't know you can do this.

So we're educating, kindly educating the educators. And once we get in there and work well with them is very they're good relationships happening.

And you're not going to hear that very much. Are you there? We get along really well with with public schools.

We are giving them morals and values. We hear from educators that kids come back kinder and more respectful.

Wow. Yeah, it is definitely something that has impacted the schools and we've heard it from the school administrators.

And we didn't solicit that. They come to us and say, we can tell the difference with these kids.

So that's pretty amazing. You would think that there would be such a anti -Christian bias that they wouldn't even want to admit it if it were true.

And perhaps there are still some that refuse to admit it, but they know it's true. Well, there's always some bad actors everywhere.

But what we have found is that nine times out of 10, they just don't know the law.

So if they're pushing back on us and saying, well, wait a minute, it's because they don't know the law. And they talk to their solicitor and their solicitor comes back and says, yeah, this is something that is legal.

And they can offer this under these parameters. And we want everybody to stay in their legal lane,

Chris. We really do. Well, tell us about the nuts and bolts of exactly how this works.

What exactly is happening? And what is your staff doing?

And who these kids are, how they find out about what you're doing, and etc. Sure. Well, so a typical day in the life of Bible to School, in this program, is that you have volunteers.

And they come and the offsite location is usually within a five to 10 minute walk or bus ride.

Because one hour includes travel time. So really, our program is 40 minutes. So they have that time.

And they set up, it's either a church or a youth center that is involved.

So the community gets involved in this. It's kind of fun. And then they go and they pick up the children from school.

And it all starts there. It's all about relationships. Like, how was your week? We prayed for your grandmother.

How's she doing? And these small group leaders, these group leaders are absolutely connecting with the kids.

Because we believe that the gospel is transmitted through relationships. And that's what we're doing every week, same small group leader.

So they go and they take their lunches. And they go to, say, like a church. And they have round tables.

And their kids are getting their lunch together. And they're opening and crackling paper and all that stuff.

And the large group teacher teaches the Bible lesson for 20 minutes.

And the kids are, even though they're moving, you know, kids, they're still engaged. They hear every word.

And they say they do like a story about Jonah. And the whale.

We have, it's all hands -on. So think of us as very VBS -like, using all the five senses.

We have a big, giant blow -up whale that the second graders go inside of.

It's 30 foot long. Sight and Sound has helped us. And others, Lancaster Bible College has helped us figure out how to design these.

And we teach people how to do it. It's black and white gardening paper, duct tape, and a fan.

And we have a whole, so when kids hear, like, I went inside the belly of a whale today, they really did go inside the belly of a whale today.

And they learn about Jonah. And then they come back out to their small groups. And this is the 15 minutes with our small groups, where they have a think -about -it question, which is unique to Bible School all over the country.

No one has this. And we say, you know, how does God give second chances?

It's the think -about -it question. And the kids discuss it and say, well, how did God give Jonah second chances?

And one of the things we did in a small group is we have this ice bucket. And you were a second grade boy.

Man, this is cool stuff, man. And they say, put your hand in the ice bucket of water and see how long you can keep it in, because Jonah was thrown in the cold water, right?

So you put your hands in and then figure out how long. You take it out. And then you put, second time around, you put it on a blubber glove.

And it's disgusting. It's rubber glove with Crisco lard. Two rubber gloves with Crisco lard in the middle.

And you put it in, and then you can keep it in longer. And so kids are like, oh, wow.

And then you go right into the gospel of like, this is what God saved Jonah this way. He gave a second chance. This is what

Jesus did for you. And kids get saved left and right just because the light bulb goes on.

We have kids ask us, you know, I never knew God made me. And, you know, that just blew their minds.

Or who is God? I've never heard of him. Or some kids, a lot of kids think that Jesus is a swear word.

So 53 % of our kids this year, and consistently half every year, are unchurched.

So most of them have no church home. And we're teaching about Jesus for the very first time.

So we have that large group. We have that small group with a think about it question, large group Bible, think about it question.

And then we have worship and prayer. And most kids, people don't realize this, kids don't know how to worship.

You teach them how to worship. You worship, you teach them how to pray. And all this is done in 40 minutes with them eating their lunch.

So it is unbelievable the stories we have. I had a little boy named

Gabriel who came back from large group and just sat. And he had a big smile on his face.

And he had accepted Christ as his Savior. And we introduced that to children.

It's not a pressure. But he really wanted to do it. He did it that day. And I said, Gabriel, tell me about that.

And he said something I'll never forget. And I truly get choked up every time

I think about it. Little blonde, blue -eyed, curly -haired boy. He said, I've always wanted to know how to get to heaven, but no one's ever told me.

And I thought, this child lives a couple minutes from my house. And he doesn't know it.

And he's in our public schools. This is a mission field. This is a mission field because kids are not hearing about the

Bible in our culture. Now, why on earth are these obviously unbelieving parents allowing you to pick up their kids from public school to bring them to a church location for Christian education?

Now, James Dawson said it best, is that it doesn't matter if you're Christian parents or non -Christian parents.

You want the best for your child. So they look at this as a very positive program of, you know, biblical morals and values.

But also, it's back to that convenience. They don't have to pick them up or drop them off.

It's fun. We do science experiments where they act out the Bible stories.

They dress up. Kids come back from school, you know, from Bible to school to school.

And they're like, man, you don't want to miss this. And so imagine being a fourth grade boy, fifth grade boy, and this is over lunch at recess.

And you'd rather go to Bible school than do recess. And that's what happens all the time. So we know that we're hitting that mark, but they are getting solid biblical teaching.

We tell them, you know, God created them and made them and loves them. And everything out there, you know as well as I do,

Chris, is they're after their identity. They're after who you are. And these kids grab onto that God made them,

God loves them, God has a plan and a purpose for their lives. Jesus Christ died for their sins. And if they repent from their sins and give their life to him, that they will be in heaven with him someday.

And he's always with them because the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit. So God is always with them.

And they're like, they're a whole countenance changes. Like they're, when they come to Christ and when they learn that, wow, you know,

God's, this one little girl said this year, she said, God, God died for me, for me.

And you just think these precious little ones are so wide open to the gospel.

And that's the other thing, Chris, that your listeners might want to know is that we started, we were elementary school.

We do second through sixth grade because the window for kids, and if you're a youth pastor out there, the window for people to come to know

Christ is the most Christians have done is in ages four to 14 window.

That's when their actual morals and values are shaped in their brains.

And they're just like after 14, you got to change their mind. I tell pastors all the time, I have an easier job than you do.

And so that's really why we hit it that young. And you try, like I said, try to use all their five senses.

That safe space for them to ask spiritual questions in that small group is golden.

They don't have that anywhere. And we fulfill that for them.

When we come back to our first commercial break, I would like you to help our listeners from all over the

United States, because we do have a national audience. We actually have a global audience. But to help them, if they,

I'm sure that most of them have never heard of this program. I never heard of it until my friend

Ron Jones told me he just started working for you. But I'm sure that there are pastors and deacons and Christian parents all over the

United States who are saying, you mean we could evangelize children in the public school system?

We could legally do this? And they're not even aware of it. And I'd like you to basically give them all the information they need in the state that they're in to launch these programs, because they may be nonexistent in many of these states where our listeners live.

But we'll have you do that when we come back from our first commercial break. And don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the

Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our

Triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hello, this is Brian Nye, President of Hearts for the Lost Ministry. Our sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite, and educate their flock in biblical evangelism.

We also provide practical experience opportunities in sharing the gospel directly within your immediate community.

We accomplish this mission with training and Christ -centered outreach events designed to equip the church and proclaim the good news of the gospel.

Our services are always 100 % free. If you're looking to equip and mobilize your church for faithful gospel witness, please partner with us.

Hearts for the Lost Ministry, serving the church, proclaiming the gospel. Contact us today at heartsforthelost .com.

That's heartsforthelost .com. Now, have a heart and go share your faith.

This program is sponsored by Hope TR Ministry. Hope TR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan.

We are dedicated to sharing Reformed biblical content every Wednesday and Friday. Tune in for sermons, lectures, and interviews exploring distinctive

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I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John McArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show.

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By the way, folks, I just want to let you know that since Corey Pennepacker, our first guest, could only be on with us for the first hour, please stay tuned for the second hour as well, as my guest will be a returning guest, my friend

Jeremiah Nortier, pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

He's going to be talking about his upcoming debates. He's going to be talking about some Bible conferences and all kinds of things.

So please make sure you stay tuned for the second hour as well. Corey, as I was saying before the break,

I'm sure that there are many people that are listening. There may be pastors listening all over the

United States, and I'm sure there are because we have many pastors in our audience nationally and even globally who are thinking, wow,

I've got to see if I could take advantage of this and get this program started with our church and so on.

What do they need to do? What are the qualifications? I'm sure there's some kind of vetting process, just as there are legal vetting processes when you have people who are providing childcare in churches.

They have to be investigated and so on legally. So just tell us about all of that.

Yes, all the volunteers have to be background checked. But the process for us is that you would come to Bible2School .com,

Bible2School .com, contact us, and we would walk you through a four -step process to become, we call it, a

Bible2School member. And what you do is we will equip you with all the tools you need and coaching and a website.

And that's what I wished I had when I started all that live coaching, to start this in your own community.

We have you build a leadership team in your community. One church cannot do it alone.

It is a community approach. So we actually pull business leaders in. We pull parents and church leaders in.

And we have a formula, a secret sauce, that we guide you through to start these.

And we've planted them all over Pennsylvania. We have in Idaho, Texas, and North Carolina.

And we have 15 other states that we're working with as well. So it is tried and true.

But our curriculum, we have, like I said, second through sixth grade year curriculum.

It's all age -appropriate. And it is fabulous with this. Think about it, question this time, for kids to have a safe place for spiritual questions.

We would walk you through how to recruit volunteers. And we have all the best practices, just like a franchise model.

We have all the best practices for you, over 450 tools. So, yeah, it is a journey.

We work with us, and you kind of become part of our team. And we equip the body of Christ out there.

And you own your own program. We teach you how to raise funding for the program in the community.

And community business leaders, I got to tell you, they step up to the plate because these are their future employees.

So the church also, the benefit for them is that they're engaging the business leaders in the community, all centered around getting the gospel to children.

And people pay attention when Christian churches and business leaders and parents all work together, all to benefit children.

And so I highly recommend just exploring this with us at Bible2School .com.

And do you have any advice or counsel for a local group of Christians, pastors, and business leaders, as you were mentioning, who want to get this launched in their home city and they're getting a pushback?

Maybe people on the school board. It may be other people involved in the local public schools.

There is a lot of ignorance in our day, and I'm sure for many decades, about the separation of church and state.

People are very confused and don't understand what that actually meant.

They think it's a part of the Constitution when it's not. It was actually a promise by Thomas Jefferson to Baptists that the government would not interfere in their free conduct of expressing their religion in the way that they believe the

Bible taught them to. So do you have any counsel on that when people may push back?

And do you have stories of that happening that you can recall? Yes. So that's why we train you.

When you become a Bible School member, we train you how to respond to that. We work with the

Pennsylvania Family Institute, and so they actually are behind us. We work with Alliance Defending Freedom.

We work with their main people, because both of those organizations want to see release time all through the country.

And so we have had pushback. Again, like I said, if you have that, we work with you with these organizations.

We've heard all the questions, and we know how to prepare you with the answers.

So when I say we equip the church, we equip them all the way down to the legal nuts and bolts of it and are there for you in your community.

We've had some things in a couple different states where people were like, well, this is you can't do this, and you can't do that.

And we came back and said, yeah, we're in our legal lane. We can do this. Or if somebody from Bible School was doing something that they weren't supposed to do, we're saying, okay, pull back.

You're not supposed to do that. So we are the guide rails for you, and so you don't have to really worry about too much on that front, because we're the ones, the experts on that, and we keep up on all the legal, each state, like you're talking about different states.

We have all the state, whatever state you're in, call us. We'll explore it, and we'll tell you what the rules are, if there's anything special.

But bottom line is we as Christians can do this. There is a federal release time.

Isn't it just like God, Chris, to like have that back from 1914 is when all this kind of started, and nobody knows about it, but for such a time as this, we need it.

Yes, and isn't it interesting how those on the left behave and speak as if they are the champions of freedom of choice, and yet they really want to rob people of choosing things, the freedom to choose things that they just personally dislike.

They don't want us to have freedom of choice for allowing our tax dollars to support the private schools of our choice, and they don't want parents to be involved on occasion and even the programs that you're talking about.

Can you once again, for those of our listeners who missed you earlier on, tell us right now or remind us the states that currently have

Bible to school programs? Current ones are

Pennsylvania, Idaho, Texas, and North Carolina, and we're going strong in those states, and we grew 17 percent from the kids last year to this year.

So word of mouth is great. I'll tell you who's really out there who we need is those moms.

Moms get her done, and we actually have a lot of moms that run these programs. Pastors don't have to do it.

I know you say a lot of pastors listening. We have a whole system of this leadership team where there's a place for pastors, there's a place for business leaders, but those parents, those moms and grandmas,

I'm a grandma now, so I'm now fired up about how to get it into my grandkids' public school, but it really is the best kept secret in America that you can do this, and you can do it when you're asking about people push back.

Sometimes they drag their feet. Sometimes they won't meet with us, but we have a really positive approach to public school.

We love public schools. We love public school teachers. We love public school administrators. Whether they agree with us or not, we know we want to be in our legal lane.

We want them to keep them—when they realize we want them to keep them in their legal lane, and that it's beneficial to the children.

They all love the kids, and we're all on the same page, and so we work really hard to be in a place where we're developing relationships and helping people and churches and moms and parents, grandparents, to develop these relationships with the school, because we all want the best for the kids.

And knowing the gospel and hearing the gospel, that you see the changes in the kids, and it's undeniable even to people who are not of faith watching from the outside.

Are there any sad occasions that you're aware of where parents who obviously, according to what you described earlier,

I think you said 53 % of the children that are a part of this

Bible to school program are unchurched. So are any of these parents who are not taking their children to church, who obviously are unregenerate parents, have you ever heard of any negative reaction to the changes in their children?

Maybe they are saying, uh -oh, this is more than I bargained for. I don't want my kid lecturing to me over dinner about Jesus Christ.

We could go on and on with the scenario. Actually, quite the opposite. We have kids bringing their parents to church.

So we do. I always say it's the best on -ramp to church attendance, because we started doing an end -of -year survey,

Chris, with the parents and asking different things. And one of the questions was, well, have you started going to church since your child's going to Bible to school?

And a couple of years ago, two years ago, 15 % said yes. Now it's 18%.

So the percentage is climbing. I think people just want a reason or a connection or something to connect with a body of believers or a safe place, a place for truth.

I mean, people are seeking truth everywhere. And I tell you, I was surprised by that percentage.

But 18 % of our kids, our parents, are going to church now because their kids went to Bible to school.

I have not had, I can think of, a negative. There might be a couple out there, but most of it is very positive.

Any politicians, most likely on the left, that are trying to stamp out

Bible to school in the states that you exist in? There are some that will want to.

They want it to be, I talked about, that you shall have a policy about release time or you may have a policy about release time.

The may states are places where we're trying to flip that to that you shall have a policy that allows it across the board.

And the harder states are the may states where you may have a policy and you may, different school districts can decide differently.

So it's not fair across the state who's allowed to have this program.

And so, yeah, there's some stuff going on with that. But there's some really good people involved who are working toward making sure every kid has the opportunity.

It's an elective, Chris. People get on social media and are like, and they're using tax dollars, and we're not using tax dollars.

And we're forcing our children, we're not. It's the parents that are signing them up, and they're having very good responses.

Yeah, it is. Still, my mind is boggled by the majority of the parents involved in this that are voluntarily and eagerly having their children participate, or not even believers themselves.

That's pretty amazing. Yeah, and that's another reason

I wanted to let you know, and I don't know if you knew this or not, but our organization, my board had kind of commissioned me to write a book.

And I'm working in conjunction with Focus on the Family with a book coming out in September for public school parents.

And it's called Backpack Faith, Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School.

And it really helps the believers know what they can and can't do.

Like, one time I had my son. I have great public school and great teacher.

She was a Christian teacher, and they were doing Christmas, and he was like in second grade or something. And they were doing an activity, and they said, well, tell us something about Christmas.

And he raised his hand to Santa and reindeer, and he raised his hand, of course, and said,

Jesus' birthday. And she said, I'm sorry, you can't say Jesus in school. Yeah, and I had to go in and kindly educate her and say, why did you say that to my son?

So what do you do when somebody says that to you? And that's what this book addresses, is what you said, separates the church and state and legal, what kids can do, what they can't do, what they can wear, what they can't wear.

I put a lot of research into this with Alliance Defending Freedom and Pennsylvania Family Institute.

And, yeah, parents don't realize all that their kids can do, and they don't have to leave their faith at the door.

They don't have to check it at the door, that they can live. The public school's job, the role of the public school in students' religious rights is to allow kids to freely express their faith and not prohibit it in the public school.

They're an extension of the government, so you definitely don't want to prohibit them. I mean, they have to do it within the confines of the school structure.

But the big thing I have in the book is conversation guidelines and how to have really good conversations with people, not horrible ones, not clashes, but when faith and school collide, how do you handle that as a parent on a micro level?

And that's actually what I try to help parents do, have good conversations with the school. Now, when people go to your two websites, one is bible2school .com,

which is, again, bible2school .com, and also koripennypacker .com,

k -o -r -i -pennypacker .com, just as if—just spelled the way

I'm saying it, Pennypacker. What should they expect to find there?

Well, bible2school .com is where you can contact us and try to explore if you want to get this into your community, your public school.

koripennypacker .com is where I answer lots of public school parents' questions, and I have the book there as well.

One thing that I wanted to tell you that why I was commissioned to write this book is I wrote for The Washington Times as a columnist for a while and answering parents' questions, and one question came out

I think your listeners will want to know, and this is what sparked the book and the book answers, is that they said,

I can't afford to homeschool, I can't afford to go to a private school, so how do

I protect my child from harmful cultural elements in the public school system? And we prayed about that, and really the answer is, it's not how you protect your kids, it's how you prepare your kids.

So flip that paradigm, and this book helps you figure out how to prepare your kids to live for Jesus in public school.

And that's what we want, and then also, how do we even get the

Bible into the kids' lives, into their friends? They can invite their friends to church on Sundays, but man, not always they'll always go, but they'll invite them to Bible2school, and they'll come, and they'll have a great time, and they'll learn about Jesus in the process.

Well, I would like you to have two minutes just to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about Bible2school.

Well, Bible2school is something that a public school ministry that equips you to go into your public school and use the

Federal Release Time Ruling and be able to bring the kids out, release them for one hour a week, and teach them about Jesus and see lives changed, and your child's life will be changed, their friends' lives will be changed.

And we want that to happen all over the country. So if you have any interest in doing that, we'd love to hear from you.

Lives are changed by the gospel, and kids are wide open to the gospel. And so we'd love for you to join us.

We'd love for you to check out our Bible2school website and also coreypennypacker .com.

Every book that we sell supports the ministry of Bible2school.

So we would love to have you join us and check us out. Amen. And once again, that's

Bible2school .com, Bible2school .com,

and coreypennypacker .com, and Corey is spelled K -O -R -E -Y. It's been a joy becoming acquainted with you,

Corey. And I look forward to hearing more from you, and hope to meet your pastors at my pastor's luncheon.

And God bless you, and my prayers are with what you're doing. And I'm glad that you have taken a friend of mine,

Ron Johnson, under your team. He's a wonderful brother. It's been a privilege talking with you,

Chris. And yes, shout out to Ron, and thank you for all you do here as well, because, man, the gospel is worth it, getting all my airwaves, right?

Amen. Amen. Well, God bless you, sister. Thank you. And folks, don't go away, because after our midway break, we are going to be joined, as I said earlier, by Jeremiah Nortier, and he is pastor of the

Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. And he is going to be telling us all about some upcoming events and debates, and even will be reviewing a recent debate that he had on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

So don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the

Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hello, this is Brian Nye, President of Hearts for the Lost Ministry. Our sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite, and educate their flock in biblical evangelism.

We also provide practical experience opportunities in sharing the gospel directly within your immediate community.

We accomplish this mission with training and Christ -centered outreach events designed to equip the church and proclaim the good news of the gospel.

Our services are always 100 % free. If you're looking to equip and mobilize your church for faithful gospel witness, please partner with us.

Hearts for the Lost Ministry, serving the church, proclaiming the gospel. Contact us today at heartsforthelost .com.

That's heartsforthelost .com. Now, have a heart and go share your faith. I'm Simon O'Mahony, Pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

Welcome back, and we are now joined by my friend Jeremiah Nortier, a pastor of the

Twelve Five Church, a Reformed Baptist church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and he's also probably more famously known as the

Apologetic Dog, not only because that's the name of his podcast, but he also is an apologist participating in many debates with folks that do not believe in and perhaps even radically oppose the doctrines of sovereign grace.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jeremiah Nortier.

Thanks for having me back on. It's always a joy getting to come on the radio broadcast with you.

Well, we recently had one of the debates that we've had on this show. I'm trying to remember how many we've had.

I think that may have been our third two -day debate. The first two were each two days in length with Nazarene pastor

Jared K. Henry. The first debate that we had with Jared, I believe, was on the ordination of women.

Am I right on that? Yes. And then the second one was, can Christians be freed from all known sin?

That's right. And we're having another one coming up in June on, can truly born -again believers lose their salvation?

That's going to be, I think, possibly even a more important show because there are far more evangelicals that believe that than perhaps the other two.

Definitely more than who believe you could be free from known sin in this life.

What's unfortunate is we just did that debate with Jack Wilkie of the Church of Christ.

I think it would have been really good to have debated him a second time on this topic or just another advocate with the

Church of Christ because me and Jack, we debated essentially on what is the gospel.

And so obviously, we are worlds apart. We believe in two different kinds of gospels. And so the question about being able to lose your salvation, to me, that is a natural entailment of both of our positions.

For Jack, it's by your working participation to the command of baptism to wash away your sins.

But his worldview would say, well, yeah, you have this ability to get baptized, have your sins washed away, and it's also on you to walk away from the faith.

That's on the table. And I would say for those in the Sovereign Grace Camp, like you're talking about, we were not only saved by grace, but we will be kept by grace to the very end in our glorification.

Yes, and I do pray for Jack. I really like Jack a lot. I think he's a great guy.

I think he's a very bright guy. I think many of the things he's trying to accomplish, even within the

Church of Christ, are good and true. But he still is clinging to some things that you and I would find very spiritually and theologically dangerous.

As I told you off the air, the Church of Christ is the only

Bible -believing church that I am aware of that believes and teaches.

And of course, it depends on which sect within the Church of Christ, because they are a group that has been warring in -house ever since the 19th century, ever since they became a movement.

But they're the only church of which I'm aware where you can truly—and

I have to emphasize the word truly— love Jesus, truly repent, truly follow

Him, and yet you will still go to hell if you are not baptized exactly the way they teach you must be baptized.

That's a pretty chilling concept, isn't it? It is.

That's why on day one of my debate with Jack, I asked kind of the question that's lurking in most people's minds that have interacted with the

Church of Christ. Remember how I framed it? If you're in your hotel room with the

Gideon Bible, reading the Gospel of John, and you see Christ for who He is, as Lord over all and Savior, and you believe in Him—the whole thesis verse of John is these things are written to you— that you may believe in Him and have everlasting life in His name.

And so my big question was, you know, what if someone believes that and desires to obey all that He has commanded us, like in baptism?

And unfortunately, the person perishes on the way there. And like you and I have talked about, you know, what is more practical is deathbed conversions where water is not even available.

Which, by the way, I was a hospice chaplain for three years, and that was definitely something that was reoccurring, right?

Because I had those opportunities to preach the gospel of grace. Here's the deal. That's a legitimate question that I would say if Jack was consistent.

And I've found many Church of Christ advocates online that would say, no, you did not have your sins washed away.

I've heard a handful of other answers, but to me that's the most consistent one. And that was one of the few questions that Jack refused to answer me because I think it's so apparent to everyone that that's absurd.

Yes, I could remember at least a very brilliant Church of Christ theologian who is now no longer with us, sadly, but he was a brilliant guy.

Jack Cottrell, a professor of, I think it was Cincinnati Bible College, if I'm not mistaken, wrote two magnificent books against egalitarianism.

One was called Feminism in the Bible. One was called Gender Roles in the Bible, and they were excellent.

And every Reformed pastor that I know to whom I gave copies of these books shared with me that they thought it was the best thing they ever read on books opposing egalitarianism.

But he was in the Church of Christ, the instrumental Church of Christ. And he said that when

I posed him with the same kind of a question, he said, well, they would be saved by the baptism of desire, and that's a

Roman Catholic concept. And so it was sad that he scoffed at that,

Jack, during your debate as being nonsensical, because it's something that happens,

I'm sure, every day, hundreds of times a day across the world, maybe thousands, where somebody has come to faith in Christ, and it is impossible to immerse them in water.

And so it's not nonsensical. And the thing that I noticed he was arguing, which made it even sadder, was he was saying, oh, that's like saying, if you're saying,

I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and you die in the middle of your statement, as if there would be a question as to whether that person would be in heaven or hell.

And of course, we know that just by saying something like that doesn't save you. But if a truly born -again believer is in the middle of a sentence proclaiming his faith in Christ and dies, doesn't mean that he's going to hell, because he didn't finish saying the words, and he might not be able to speak at all.

His injury or illness might be so serious, he can't even utter a word. He might be able to squeeze a hand or nod his head affirmingly.

I mean, so Jack was even questioning whether somebody would be in heaven if they couldn't say the entire words that I believe in Jesus for the salvation of my soul.

What I tried to express is Jesus covered this in the Gospels because he says, you will be justified by your words.

Now, if we look at that in its broader context, he also talks about, for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

And so when you have a changed heart, that changes the things that you now say and the direction that you live your life to the glory of God.

That's why he was bringing up one of our favorite passages in Romans 10 about confessing that Jesus is

Lord and that God raised him from the dead. If you confess that Jesus, then you will be saved.

And so that context shows how it's a heart of faith that trusts in Christ and is justified.

And, you know, it's funny because I got accused of cutting that verse in half and he said, you believe the first half and not the second.

I'm like, well, one, that's not true when you understand the parallel nature and chiasm that Paul is using mouth and heart interchangeably in the sense that justification has always been by faith apart from works, but it demonstrates itself out.

You know, I believe he shoots himself in the foot because he fundamentally, I read his book,

You Are Saved, and he says faith begins with mental ascent and then it carries out into actions.

And so as I was preparing for the debate, it was only a couple weeks time, I realized, oh, man, he's skipping the main feature of what saving faith actually is.

It's a heart of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone.

So we would say, yes, it begins with knowing facts, but it actually moves to the heart and trust in Christ.

Now, that justifying faith then will demonstrate itself out in good works. But, you know,

I really actually had a fantastic time debating Jack. It was very high energy and fast pace, and I really liked that kind of, you know, interaction.

But I could tell he was irritated with me probably from beginning to end. I think it was because,

Chris, I'd love to hear your thoughts, but I was just reminding him that he believes that your working obedience is necessary in order to be justified before God almighty.

Yes, it did appear that way. And for those of you who were upset with me, the moderator, because I didn't butt in.

Yeah, you had a few people say, where are you, Chris? Yes, and I am in a dilemma.

If you're wondering why in all the many, many, many, many, many debates, I'm talking about public live moderated debates that are held in catering halls and churches that I have orchestrated, predominantly featuring

James White, a mutual dear friend of both of ours, and Tony Costa on occasion and some others.

But if you're wondering why I am typically on very rare occasions,

I should say, am I moderating those debates? I am hosting, emceeing the debates,

I'm orchestrating them, organizing them, but I'm not actually moderating them because it is so well known where I stand on theological issues that I am in a desperate attempt not to be overtly biased and therefore in some way fixing the outcome of the debate.

And that's what made me hesitate when Jack was interrupting and speaking over you at one point.

The second cross -examination turned out to be a lot better, a little more calm. So I hope that even you know where I'm coming from.

Oh, yeah, well, I totally understand that. And I do appreciate you letting the sparring match.

And here's the deal. In order to have a really good, respectful, robust debate, it takes two to tango.

It takes both parties being on board. And so I think with me and Jack, I think I was anticipating him being very relaxed, easy going, read his book, really appreciate a lot of things that he said.

And I've debated a number of times. So that was my mentality going in. And so for him to kind of almost switch gears, you know, of just constantly interrupting,

I thought, OK, you know, if that's the direction we got to go, I was able to at least have a good night's sleep and recalibrate for what needed to happen the second day.

And you may have had the time, I don't know, maybe you haven't, to look at some of his responses after the debate.

I know one thing that he was highlighting as seemingly in his mind anyway, a evidence that he won the debate, was that he was trying to make the case after the debate was over that surprisingly you as the

Calvinist are giving less credit, if in fact maybe no credit to God in the healing of Naaman by immersing himself three times.

Yeah, to me, this was just kind of chest thumping. You know, Jeremiah thinks that Naaman saved himself.

And when we were doing the cross -examination, I was highlighting a couple of different things.

This is not a context for justification. It was in his working obedience, being commanded to jump up and down, being dipped, immersed seven times in the

Jordan River. And so day two, I was able to kind of just clarify to everyone, God saved or will say healed

Naaman miraculously and physically through Naaman's working obedience.

And the reason why I think it's important to say it like that is because number one, that undoes their whole paradigm.

I do tell people that is a, you know, when we do have a high view of God's sovereignty, everything in the

Old Testament was written for our learning and we can see God's redemptive hand in everything. And so we see that, yes, there is a principle of humility there.

And I think the biggest takeaway is we look to Christ in humility by faith alone and his finished work alone, not trusting ourselves.

But I think what's important to highlight there is it was miraculous, right? Which you got to think the

Church of Christ actually do not think that their conversion is miraculous. Naaman was baptizing himself by jumping up and down, you know, in the water, dipping up and down.

And so it's a self -immersion. I accidentally said three times because I'm thinking of the

Eastern Orthodox guy, Greg Trulia, that we had on the show. That's okay.

And then I was going to say, too, we do want to highlight Naaman's working obedience because if this was for justification in Romans 3 into Romans 4, and I would say

Romans 11, there would be grounds for boasting because it's something that Naaman did in his obedience.

Now, God has always worked in unregenerate people in the past, providentially and even miraculously, as we see.

And the Hebrews, as we continue to talk about the Hebrews going through the parting of the

Red Sea, and God did, in fact, save them. But they are trying to twist all of these stories and shoehorn it into baptism as a connection.

And so I think, yeah, and it didn't matter what I would say, Chris. For him, he already won those points before he even asked them.

So all I can do is try to highlight to people what is going on. And, well, like I said,

I hope the Church of Christ keep pointing back to Naaman as the paradigm of how they are saved.

We are going to point to Abraham, who was justified by faith apart from ceremony, not by his working obedience, but the empty hand of faith that clings to grace.

And so I want to let people know that it is proper to say that God healed Naaman through Naaman's working obedience.

And therefore, that is not a paradigm for justification. Yes, and you have experienced a lot of interaction with those folks in the

Church of Christ, ministers and apologists and debaters, I believe mainly because of the high concentration of Church of Christ congregations in the

Jonesboro, Arkansas area. One thing that I have learned, and I'm sure you have too, in fact,

I know you have, is that we have to be cautious not to treat them as a monolith, as if they are all exactly the same, because the proof that they are not all the same is the fact that we just mentioned earlier.

They have been having in -house wars going back to the 19th century when

Thomas and Alexander Campbell first arrived on the American shores and began this movement.

They have been dividing with each other over some things that are laughable.

As I mentioned on the show before, I'm here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and the

Shippensburg Church of Christ will have no fellowship with the

Carlisle Church of Christ because, hold on to your seats, folks, hold on to your hats, because the

Carlisle Church of Christ is a kitchen in their building. Now, when you are so caught up in works righteousness, there is no limit to the insanity that could develop.

Am I right? Yeah, and you're touching on just one of a number of things that I've heard wild stories of Church of Christ, you know, anathematizing, splitting off, factoring, condemning one another.

I've heard of the kitchens. You've probably heard of the stories of, do you have multiple cups during the

Lord's Supper or do you have one? That's another famous one where they will divide over that. They will also divide if a church supports or helps a local orphanage or some type of ministry like that, and they will just say, well,

I don't see where that's commanded or implied in Scripture with their sinning model. And it's to each his own.

However, would an interpretation one has over the next, then their conclusion is, well, they are disobeying what

God has prescribed. But the spirit that you rightly pointed out is the spirit of legalism, and legalism always fights itself.

Just give it enough time. And another point on they're not monolithic, but they are definitely united in the principle of legalism, and we're just seeing kind of the outworking of that.

Like I remember towards the end of my debate with Jack Wilkie, I've studied the Church of Christ a lot, and so 98 % of Church of Christ will deny baptismal regeneration.

They would just kind of chalk that up to a Roman Catholic term. But I figured out why.

It's because of their anthropology. They believe that we are born the same way that Adam is created, therefore, there doesn't need to be an actual regeneration in the waters.

That's what they would just say. No, it's your obedience, right, that God has deemed to kind of forgive your sin.

And so when I was calling Jack out on that based on one of the audience questions, he just said, that's not my view.

And I was like, oh, well, you've ostracized yourself from the vast majority of the

Church of Christ world. And in fact, I think you know Keith Foskey. He hosts your

Calvinist podcast. He is actually in the works of debating a Church of Christ over that very issue.

And the gentleman that he's debating mentioned Jack Wilkie and him disagree on that, and they think it's kind of minimal. And I'm like, no, it's not.

That's huge for their anthropology. And so, yeah, you do have deviations here and there, but I'm just going back to what you said, that the spirit of legalism is apparent in the

Church of Christ world. Now, the odd thing is, how would anyone come to that conclusion in the

Church of Christ that there is no regeneration when there are

Greek scholars among them? And isn't the phrase born again in the

New Testament, doesn't that mean regeneration? Yes.

So when you talk about the rebirth, this is funny because we would see the beautiful imagery in baptism.

And so we would say it pictures and signifies these things. And so for them, they do think the

Lord's Supper is symbolic. And I'm like, that's being inconsistent because it's using the same word for forgiveness of sins, as you and I have talked about before.

But this is where they would just say the rebirth is essentially pictured in going through the watery graves of baptism.

But they would contend strongly that your actual human nature did not change because for them, it's kind of like you either have sins or you don't.

And baptism is a massive reset button. And then going forward, it's based on your repentance.

Oddly, though, that is not the paradigm that Jack Wilkie argues for in his book. He has that strong distinction like me and you would have with justification and sanctification.

But he wants justification to include baptism. And the more

I read his book, and as he appealed to Abraham in James 2, he does think that justification is not merely one time, but is fulfilled based on obedience.

I'm like, that's contradictory. It's not as binary as he makes it seem. Because when he says things, and I don't know if you got this, but when

I asked him if justification was legal and forensic, he did not want to commit to that.

Because you and I know when the just judge of all the earth declares you right, no longer guilty, that is a moment in time.

And we know that God cannot lie or renege on his pronouncements, essentially.

And that's one of the biggest criticisms I saw in the comments, even on his own channel, was Church of Christ. As they were patting him on the back, they just said, you don't need to let

Jeremiah get away with calling justification legal. And I'm like, but you can't get away from that, especially in the context of Romans and how

Galatians. And we have already stated that, and I'm very excited about this, you are on June 25th and 26th,

Thursday and Friday, going to be once again debating Jared K. Henry, the

Nazarene minister. And he's a guy that I really like as well as a person.

I consider him a brother. Seriously, an error on every issue that we have been involved in debating.

He, as Nazarenes in general do, believe in the ordination of women, to have authority over men in the church and to teach men in the church context.

And he does believe, as Nazarenes do in general, that you are capable as a

Christian of becoming entirely free from known sin in this life.

Many folks have phrased that sinless perfectionism, and I don't remember whether John Wesley actually used that term or not.

But I know that Jared did not feel comfortable saying that with those words because he's not omniscient and he may have committed sins that he's unaware of.

But those are two very serious and dangerous ideas, especially the second one.

But this next one on losing salvation, it is very serious.

Although, like I said, I believe that people can believe this and be my brethren in Christ. George Whitefield even believed

John Wesley was his brother, and Charles Spurgeon upheld as great heroes of the faith people who are five -point

Arminian. But it's still extremely serious, is it not? Why don't you tell our listeners why?

Yeah, I think this goes back to understanding the gospel of grace. So a beautiful verse that we look to for comfort in our hearts is

Romans 5 verse 1 that says, Therefore, since you have been justified by faith, you now have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ. And so it comes back to that word justification and it comes back to that word peace, shalom.

And the idea that the enmity and war between you and the

Creator could erupt all over again, that's not peace. This is the same contention

I have with Rome of pleading with people. You can have your sins forgiven and have a certainty that when the

Son sets you free, you are free indeed. Now, I would say when your worldview and salvation is very man -centered, well, think about how this makes sense.

If you are the one where you are the final arbiter, the ultimate decision maker of your destiny, well then, yeah, you could change your mind later.

You could decide to follow another figure. And it's all based on you rather than the sovereign triune

God. So I just say when it's very man -centered, it makes sense that if you chose to become saved, if you're the one that chose to be obedient in the set of commands, well, you could walk away.

I think of something John MacArthur said many years ago. He just said, if you could lose your salvation, you would.

I've always thought, you're right. If it was based on me and my grip and my strength, well,

I get tired, right? I'm going to eventually let go. I'm eventually going to fall into temptation, sin.

I remember a theologian in the past said that, man, when I look at myself, I think, how can

I be saved? But then the beauty is when he said, when he looked at Jesus Christ, he thought, how could I not be saved?

And I thought, that's the proper balance, is you can't look inward too long because you know yourself, 1

John 3 says, our heart condemns us. Oh, but God who knows all things is greater than our hearts.

And the reality is, is he knows all things, sees all things, has an ordaining purpose in all things. And so when he says, for those that are in Christ by faith apart from works, there is therefore now no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Regardless of how I feel, I trust that promise, right? And so this is a very important debate.

I just think it's the consistent outworking from the gospel of grace.

And something that you will see me contend for, Chris, is this has to be grounded in the

Trinity. And so you'll see me that both days, talking about how that is integral to understanding the gospel.

Yes, and isn't the amazing, glorious truth that we have received, past tense, the gift of eternal life, overlooked because if eternal life stops being eternal, it never was eternal.

It doesn't even make any sense, does it? I've always thought that was a fantastic point.

And this is eternal life, that you know the true God and his son, Jesus Christ, whom he has sent.

And so we have experienced the powers of the age to come by faith. And I think to somehow diminish eternal life, not being definitionally eternal life, it really short changes the gospel altogether.

I loved how earlier you were talking about, we have brothers that are inconsistent. We would call that merciful inconsistencies.

But I'm very charitable for those that will lock arms with me, the gospel of grace, meaning that we look to Jesus Christ by faith, apart from our own works, our own participation.

That's why I look at the Church of Christ and say, you have conflated the representation with the reality, with the ordinances, which are gifts to the church, but for those that have already tasted and seen that the

Lord is gracious. And so this is one of my favorite doctrines to talk about. We talk about their perseverance of the saints, or I'm okay with the phrase rightly understood, once saved, always saved.

But that's not getting your ticket punched or praying a prayer or walking an aisle. Tell people, look, we are being saved, carried along by the

Holy Spirit, because ultimately it's the scriptures that say, he who began that good work in you will bring it to completion at the eschaton, the last day of Jesus Christ.

And I really think it's this doctrine that gives you fuel and assurance to live each and every day to the glory of God.

Are we going to stumble? Absolutely. But we stumble forward because of the work of Christ and the

Holy Spirit. We have a Trinitarian grit on our soul. And so I'm sure you will hear me say that at some point in the debate.

Yes, and we can't overlook the horrible and heretical reality of why many

Christians do jump to the conclusion that you can lose your salvation, because there are many...

I've never taken a poll, but it could even be the majority view in evangelicalism that a person is told that they are guaranteed eternal life because they have raised a hand at a

Bible camp and accepted Jesus into their heart when they were eight years old or walked forward at a

Billy Graham crusade or some other crusade or just a church service, that they are convinced that if in that moment they believe that they're saved and they've been told that they're saved, that nothing is going to change that and they could immediately after that experience return to the vomit of their lives and become unrepentant habitual homosexuals.

It could even be a serial killer. You could become an atheist.

And even Charles Stanley in his book on eternal security taught that you could instantly after becoming born again abandon your faith and you will still be in heaven even if you live for decades as an unbeliever until you die.

I believe Dr. White debated Bob Wilkie. I don't remember if I'm saying the last name right because of Jack Wilkie.

But Dr. White debated Bob, you know, advocate of free grace. And I've really tried to understand that whole paradigm.

And it goes back to what you say. If you assent to the facts that Jesus is

Lord, then, you know, that being expressed and raising your hand or walking an aisle, then to me the absurdity and Bob and that whole free grace movement, they would say you could backslide even to becoming an atheist and you still are going to heaven.

And as I've thought about that, you know, it's kind of the same misunderstanding of, you know,

Jack Wilkie trying to describe faith as mental assent that flows into actions.

Both miss the heart change. And I think that's important. You know, we would call it fiducia in the

Latin, but we're saying there has to be a change of the heart the way that Ezekiel 36 says. God says,

I will take out the heart of stone and I will work grant a new heart, a living heart, one that desires the things of God and trust the

Savior. And I will cause you to walk in my statues. So I just wanted to highlight that.

Yeah, the free grace movement, maybe, you know, they would be more apt to say once saved, always saved.

I think one of the best ways, you know, we talk about perseverance of the saints. I really like talking about we're being saved in spite of ourselves.

So it's more like the preservation of the saints. The Holy Spirit is carrying us along in spite of ourselves.

But I love that because it's God doing the work from start to finish. And we have to make it clear that free grace is a beautiful phrase that was frequently used by Calvinists for centuries and has been hijacked by this aberrant movement.

I mean, even today we have a ministry publishing wonderful books, Free Grace Press, which is the publishing ministry of the

Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, where our mutual friend that you just mentioned,

Dr. James R. White, is on the faculty. And they in no way endorse what you're talking about as far as the cheap grace of a different movement called free grace.

Yes, and I think another broken feature with how they would define terms is they would describe a faith, that's a mental sense, devoid of repentance.

You know, we do remember the words of Christ in Mark 115, repent and believe the gospel.

And so it's a repentant faith. That is the empty hand that clings to grace, clings to the finished work of Christ.

And so repentance, there's confusion around that term. Metanoia is a change of the mind, but it captures the heart.

This is a rich Jewish term. They would understand. They would be thinking of the shamal of, you know, love the

Lord your God with all of your heart inward. And then it carries itself out with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, your entire rest of your being.

And so repentance is necessary for salvation, but it's a repentant faith.

And that repentance, change of the mind, will be demonstrated out with fruits in keeping with repentance or deeds in keeping with repentance.

And so I try to let people know there's a difference between works and repentance. Repentance involves that faith, inward heart change, but it will lead to a changed life.

And so I think that's probably helpful. And people, you know, analyzing the free grace movement, like you said, they kind of stole or hijacked a term that we would still try to contend for in some ways, because when we're talking about a super grace, well, then we get the necessary objection of Romans 6 that says, well, if we're just so freed from sin, and why not just do sin so grace may abound?

And then Paul would say, by no means, because we've been changed by grace to such a degree, we now live differently to the glory of God.

Now, I don't want to dash the hopes of our listeners that there will be no future debates between yourself and Church of Christ ministers, because we did finally receive, well, at least

I finally received, a response from a Church of Christ minister that you recommended.

And he said he was certainly interested, but it was going to take a while. And so all hope is not lost on that end.

Yeah, I had someone on my live stream last night. They said, Jeremiah, when you're completely ostracized from the

Church of Christ, what's next? And I told them the Church of Christ is my Nineveh.

So I'm not going anywhere. I don't particularly relish in that, but it's a calling.

Like you said, it began in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where, you know, just evangelizing, sharing the faith, sharing the gospel to my neighbors, friends, people that realized a long time ago, we mean different things when we say the gospel and the words grace, faith, and works.

So yeah, I'm not going anywhere. And I've also learned that there's not a ton of resources out there on the internet for equipping people how to engage with the

Church of Christ. So I always plan to be a voice in that sphere. And so I have a couple of books that I'd love to just recommend your audience.

And we may have done this at some time in the past because I've told people I probably will write a book one of these days. We'll see.

I don't feel like I'm a writer, but I met a wonderful lady. Her name is Leanne Ferguson, and she already wrote the books for me.

So I'm like, well, I can just tell people about them. She wrote a book called, the first one here,

Christ Rescued Me...from the Church of Christ. And so fantastic.

It basically gives you inside baseball to what they believe. She lived it, she breathed it, and she got rescued out of it.

And lo and behold, she is now a Reformed Baptist. And so we are connected. People can check out my interview with her on that specific book at the

Apologetic Dog YouTube channel. And then the second book is, Christ Rescued Me...the

Thief's Testimony. And Leanne Ferguson asked yours truly, Jeremiah Nortier, to write the foreword to this book.

And kind of long story short is, the Achilles heel to the Church of Christ paradigm is the thief on the cross.

He is not an exception to the rule. He is the rule. He is the example of those who look to Jesus Christ by faith, will go to paradise, have their sins forgiven.

And the thief on the cross died in the new covenant. And that's backed up by Hebrews 9.

And there's good evidence, a good argument to make that the thief on the cross was a Gentile.

And so grace is always meant to go out to the Jewish world. Even when you go back to the very cross of Calvary, you can see redemption right there.

Hallelujah. I've got to get Leanne Ferguson on the show sometime. Oh, absolutely. Just give me your contact information and I'll see what

I can arrange. We're going to our final break right now. And don't go away.

We're going to be right back with more of Jeremiah Nortier and our conversation on things that he's got cooking in the oven.

And that includes a Bible conference where he is on the speaking roster in Tullahoma, Tennessee, being hosted by Jeffrey Rice.

We'll talk more about that as well. So please do not go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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to 2 p .m., Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Everything is free, not only your admission and your meal, but every man in attendance is going to receive one and possibly two heavy sacks of free brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by generous

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click support, then click to donate now. And last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful,

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Church, the Reformed Baptist Congregation in Jonesboro, Arkansas, pastored by my guest

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience spanning the globe find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too.

So if that's the case, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

I need a church in the subject line. And we're now back with Jeremiah Nortier, and I wanted to talk about the

Abiding in Christ Conference. It will be held 21 days after my pastor's luncheon,

October 22nd through the 24th in Tullahoma, Tennessee, and my guest

Jeremiah Nortier is one of the keynote speakers. Why don't you tell us about this wonderful conference, brother?

Yes, on October 22nd, Jeffrey Rice is kicking off the conference with a debate.

He is partnering with Braden Patterson. They're taking the affirmative to the proposition, the new covenant alone is the covenant of grace.

And so they will be debating two friends that are Presbyterian. I personally know

Dr. Joshua Howard. He's one of the co -hosts to Eschatology Matters on YouTube.

So I will be there with popcorn, enjoying every second. But to me, this is the major divide between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians.

And once again, we high five on so many things, but it's the purity of the new covenant that we would point to.

That is the covenant of grace. And so anyway, I'm just really pumped for that two -on -two debate.

I will no doubt learn a lot in that exchange itself, but that's what's kicking off the conference. And then, like you said, it's the

Abiding in Christ Conference, and I will be discussing

Abiding in Christ is the believer's continuing dependence on him, covering the text

John 15, 4 -7. And Chris, one of the main verses that really stands out in this passage is, whoever abides in me,

Christ says, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

And when I read that, I realize that Christ doesn't just save us and tell us good luck with everything else.

No, he says, and lo, I'll be with you even to the end of the age. And so he gifts us his spirit, and he is ever with us.

And so my point is, we continue sweet communion with Christ even in our sanctification.

And so during this present evil age, we war against the flesh, we war against the principality of the air, and we war against the world's system.

And so it must be rooted in Christ to whom else has the words of life. You know what

I mean? And so I'm looking forward to being a part of this conference. Yes, and the other speakers include

Kevin Hay, Michael Schultz, Braden Patterson, Haps Addison, Claude Ramsey, Jonathan Burris, and Andrew Rappaport, each of whom

I have had on the program at least once, some of them multiple times. But I hope that all of you who are able to can attend that conference.

And you can find out more about it by going to crbctullahoma .org,

which is spelled T -U -L -L -A -H -O -M -A .org. That's C -R -B -C,

Covenant Reformed Baptist Church, crbctullahoma .org.

And if you click on Events, that will come up. And always pleased to promote anything that Covenant Reformed Baptist Church of Tullahoma, Tennessee, is doing.

Well, in the time that you have left, first of all, let our listeners know about anything else you're doing that you want them to be aware of, that I may not be aware of.

And then we can conclude with the things that you most want etched in their hearts and minds before we go off the air.

Yes, I've been doing some work with a couple of gentlemen in the UK with the

Grace and Truth Network. And so just keep me in prayer with that, because there's some conferences right outside of London that we are in talks of being able to collaborate and do some things in September.

So those are exciting things on the horizon. And, you know,

I try to be very sensitive, Chris, in the world of apologetics. I want to point out one thing in particular.

Meaning, you know, and James Wise talked about this before, is you kind of set your sight in doing apologetics.

My first, my heart is equipping the Saints at 125 Church, where I pastor at, with a plurality of elders, along with Pastor Nathan and Pastor Keith.

And so I think of them first and foremost, but just as you would have it, there are issues and problems and heresies that creep up.

And so I try to be sensitive to those things as they come. So, like, there was about three years there,

Chris, where I was having to be an active voice against hyper -preterism with Dr.

Sam Prost. I went on his show just a couple weeks ago. We'll be releasing that footage. But I'm just saying, like,

I'm sensitive to those things. And one thing that I've noticed being attacked online is the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement.

A lot of those attacks are coming from the Eastern Orthodox. And so that is something that I will ask all of your viewers,

I mean, listeners, their prayers, because I really think since that's being under attack, that is something that I want to be a voice defending.

Yes, and I will definitely be praying about all of that. You've become a very valuable ambassador for the doctrines of sovereign grace and the gospel in the

United States. And it's good to know that the older that James White gets, and he's a year younger than me, well, maybe about six months younger, but the older that he gets, we need not fear that when that day comes, when the

Lord calls him home, that the Reform Baptist movement will be devoid of any apologists capable of taking the mantle and defending these things in public form.

And I thank God that you're one of them, certainly. And I know that James White believes that.

And in a couple of minutes, perhaps, before we run out of time, perhaps tell us why you think debates are a good and beneficial thing, because there are many people, some even within the

Reform Baptist and Calvinistic circles, who are opposed to debates, and perhaps you could tell us why you disagree with them.

Yeah, well, it's a misunderstanding of what Paul tells Timothy about not getting lost and, you know, vain quarreling and so forth, because in that same passage,

Paul tells Timothy to rightly handle the word of truth. And he talks about to guard the deposit entrusted to you,

O Timothy. So people don't realize that there are certain contexts where we go to war for the gospel of grace, no different than Paul and Barnabas, you know, in the

Jerusalem Council. It says that, you know, there was no small dissension, and they debated with these

Judaizers over the gospel because they were trying to add circumcision in the law of Moses to being saved.

And so my point is, there's a time and place for everything under the sun. And just because, you know, you got randos coming on the internet demanding that you debate them, that doesn't mean you accept it always.

And so it's something that you want to be fearful about. Paul also says in Ephesians 4 .15

that we should speak the truth in love. And so that's a balance. And one way to do that balance and consider that balance is having accountability in your life.

I would never, ever, ever tell a young man or someone that you should just dive head in and become an online apologist or do public debate.

I tell people you need to be a part of a healthy church because a part of a healthy church, you're gonna have oversight into your life, being able to say, hey, this is a kind of gifting that we see the

Holy Spirit has in you, and you should run with it, right? And so not everyone should do debate just because you like it or you've learned something.

I'm just saying, ask your brothers and sisters in Christ if that's potentially something that you should look into.

And so that's something that James Wyatt has always said is a Christian apologist must be an active member, participating member in a healthy church because we all need that oversight and accountability in iron sharpening iron, you like that?

Well, folks, don't forget about Jeremiah's websites, theapologeticdog .com,

and that's theapologeticdog .com. And what's the website again for 12 Five Church?

Yep, it's 12fivechurch .com, the word12, and the number fivechurch .com.

Well, I wanna thank you so much for filling in at the last minute with no notice, brother, for being on the program.

I wanna thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, Jesus Christ is a far greater