James White Debates Romans 8 With IFB Pastor

Debate Introduction and the Rules for Romans 8

Greetings and welcome back to The Dividing Line. We have a dialogue today on the program, so I will introduce how we're going to do this and we'll get right to it. We want to make sure to do this in an appropriate fashion.

This will be a timed dialogue. There will be equal time for both sides. We are joined by Pastor Jason Robinson, who is going to be discussing with me the subject of Romans 8, verses 28 -34. I wrote to Pastor Robinson after seeing a video that he had posted in regards to myself and Pastor Jeff Durbin, and I invited him to come on the program and not have a debate about every topic under the sun, but instead to engage in an example of how each one of us handles the scriptures.

And so, I suggested a key theological text, Romans 8, verses 28 -34. It is a deep text. It's not super long. We only have 15 minutes for each one of us to cover this text. That's not long enough to filibuster and to wander about too much, but should be long enough to at least cover the major elements of the text and to demonstrate a consistent interpretation.

Then each of us will have 15 minutes to ask the other questions, not to filibuster and to drag the topics off into other areas, but specifically to ask questions concerning the other person's understanding of the same text.

We need to stay in Romans 8. I'm not saying that cross-references can't be given or things like that, but we need to stay focused upon Romans 8. So, there'll be 15 minutes for each of us to give our presentations, then 15 minutes, that's each, so that's one half hour, then 15 minutes each cross-examination of the other on the person's exegesis, so that takes us to one hour, and then each of us will have five minutes to summarize our thoughts on the discussion.

At that point, obviously, if you want to, Pastor Robinson, expand out beyond the topic, make application, something like that in that last five-minute closing statement type thing, that would certainly be understandable and acceptable.

And so, the total of the discussion is 70 minutes, 70 minutes on that today. So, with that, as our guest, I have invited Pastor Robinson to have first shot at examining the text and giving us his understanding of Romans 8, verses 28 through 34.

So, Pastor Robinson, thank you very much for joining us, and if you'd like to begin, please do so.

Romans 8:28-34 and Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Love for God

All right, thanks for having me. So, starting there in verse 28, we'll just read it. It says, and we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

So, this first verse here is saying that all things work together for good, but there's a couple caveats to who that applies to. So, first, it says to them that love God, and to them who are the called according to His purpose.

And so, the first thing we see is to them that love God. Now, loving God is not being saved. I do believe to them who are the called according to His purpose is talking about salvation. But to them that love God is something that's on top of that, meaning not everybody that's saved loves God, because not everybody that's saved keeps all the commandments.

And so, in John 14, 15, it says, if you love me, keep my commandments. And 1 John 5, 3, it says, for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous. And so, this promise is a great promise that all of us that are saved, but also that love God, meaning that we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight, that this promise of all things working together for good.

Now, obviously, I don't believe this means that God decrees evil, and that all this evil is working good, and that's what God decreed. But I do believe this is talking about tribulation, trials, and all that, which is actually what is talked about right after this portion of Scripture, and the fact that, you know, we're going to suffer with Him, we're going to endure tribulations and all this.

And so, this is a great promise to know that, hey, through all that, in the end, if you love God as a Christian, and you're keeping His commandments, all things will work together for good. In verse 29, it says, for whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And then it goes on and says, moreover, whom He did predestinate, then He also called, and whom He called, then He also justified, and whom He justified, then He also glorified. So, I want to talk about this passage as far as predestination.

So, this is probably one of the big topics to discuss as far as what is this talking about dealing with predestination. And the number one thing to see here is what it starts off with in verse 29, where it says, for whom He did foreknow.

So, that's the key to understanding this passage. But also, what are we being predestinated to? It says in this passage, He also did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now, that term firstborn is very unique in the Bible, talking about Jesus, because it talks about how He's the firstfruits of the resurrection, or firstfruits of them that slept. He's the first begotten of the dead.

So, we're talking about the resurrection, which no marvel was just talked about in Romans chapter 8. And so, we're being predestined to be conformed to His image. And I want to parallel this with Ephesians chapter 1.

So, Ephesians chapter 1, and actually, you know, in 1 Peter as well, it says, because that foreknowledge is brought up again, it says in 1 Peter chapter 1, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

And so, being elect, being predestinated, is based off of God's foreknowledge. So, we can't blame God for knowing the end from the beginning. But I do want to talk about this, because actually, Ephesians 1 is the only other place that the word predestination is used in the Bible.

And so, I want to just go to that passage in Ephesians chapter 1. And actually, it reiterates itself in this. It uses the word predestinate two times in this passage. But in verse 5, and we can obviously go back to this and look at it, but it says, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ Himself according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.

So, notice that what are we being predestinated for? The adoption of children and to the praise of the glory of His grace. But down further, it reiterates this whole point. And when you go down to verse 11, and again, I'm trying to do this in 15 minutes, so we can always go back to this, but it says, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worked with all things after the counsel of His own will, that we should be to the praise of His glory who first trusted in Christ.

And this is where the foreknowledge comes in, meaning that God foreknew who would believe or who would trust in Christ, but they first trusted in Christ before they were predestined. And we can't blame God for knowing who's going to believe in the future.

But what are we being predestinated for? Not to believe. It doesn't say that we are predestined to trust in Christ. It says we are predestinated who first trusted in Christ. And then it goes on to explain that even further.

It says in verse 13, it says, in whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of His glory.

Now, this parallels perfectly with Romans 8, because in Romans 8, before we get to whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son. It says in Romans chapter 8, 23, it says, and not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves grown within ourselves, waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of our body.

And so we see that adoption, the predestination of adoption of children. We see the fact of the redemption of the purchased possession and unto the praise of His glory and the earnest of the Spirit dealing with the firstfruits of the Spirit, where He sent the Spirit of His Son crying, Abba, Father.

Talks about that in Galatians chapter 4 as well. And so this is very clearly just showing us it is a chain of events, meaning that He's stating that He predestinated those who would believe because He foreknew who would believe to be conformed to His image, to the image of His Son.

And it's specifically talking about the resurrection. Now, with this, you have to understand too, is that there's a difference between the old man and the new man, meaning that when we get saved, we have the adoption of children spiritually.

And this is where 1 John chapter 3 talks about the fact that whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. This is where in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, it says that if you be in Christ, then are you a new creature?

Behold, all things are passed away. Or I'm sorry, all things are passed away. Behold, all things are become new. That's talking about spiritually, but we still have our flesh and we're waiting for that adoption.

We're waiting for the redemption of the body. And that was predestined from the foundation of the world that those that believe will be conformed to His image. It says, now are we the sons of God and it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we should be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

So we are the sons of God now spiritually, but we're waiting for that physical adoption, that physical, where our body will be, you know, conformed to the image of His son. Now, as we go on in the passage there, and again, we can go a little more detail into this type of stuff, but doing this in 15 minutes is, I'm long-winded, so this might be challenging.

But in verse 31 of Romans chapter 8, it says, what shall we say then, or what shall we then say to these things of God before us who can be against us? He that spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for us all.

How shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is He that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea, rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now, honestly, you know, this is pretty self-explanatory when it comes to what's being talked about here. I have a feeling that the discussion is going to be going into how we reject limited atonement, and the argument that's going to be here, I'm guessing, is that we're dealing with universalism, which obviously, we reject universalism.

We don't believe everybody's getting saved. But in this passage, particularly, it uses the pronoun us. It says us all, and freely give us all things. So in this context, obviously, we're dealing with who He's writing to, and applying, obviously, Him and whoever's writing this with Him.

It'd be like me at my church saying, hey, God has died for us all here. But obviously, that doesn't exclude other people that are outside the church. But I do want to touch on that. If I have a minute, I'm not sure what my time is.

I should have had a stopwatch. But—.

You've got five minutes.

Okay. So I want to talk about that aspect of the universalism, because one of the main verses I used in my sermon was Romans 5, verse 18, where it talks about, therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men, the condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men, and the justification of life.

And so obviously, the argument is universalism. Basically, okay, well, if this is talking about all men are condemned, then are all men getting saved? But I want to just explain this in the fact that it's talking about the free gift came upon all men and the justification of life.

It doesn't mean that they all accepted that free gift. This goes back to Titus chapter 2, verse 11, for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Now, Dr. White, if you want to get into that later, we can, as far as explaining Titus 2.

I remember you talking about that, but we can definitely get into that. But I want to go to Hebrews chapter 6, because I want to prove that that gift came upon people was actually tasted by people that are clearly not saved.

And so Hebrews chapter 6, in verse 4, it says, for it is possible for those who are once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucified to themselves, the Son of God afresh, and put them to an open shame.

So I believe this is talking about those that God has given over to a reprobate mind, but they did taste of that heavenly gift, meaning that they knew God, but they glorified Him not as God. They held the truth in unrighteousness.

So I do believe that they even tasted of that gift. They tasted of the word of God. And that gift came upon all men, but it's only on those that accept that gift or that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that that gift is imputed unto them.

Second Peter talks about the fact that, Second Peter 2, verse 1, it says, but there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privilege shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

So I believe even the false prophet, God bought them, but it goes into the fact that He's the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. So I don't want to go any further,.

Because I'll probably go over on time on that. Okay, you actually still have two and a half minutes. Do you want to just move on? Let me do mine, or what? Yeah, I should have done a stopwatch. I meant to do that, but I didn't do it.

Things you learn first time around, yeah.

Yeah, it's the first time I've ever done this, but yeah, I mean, I have other verses obviously going into the fact that the gospel was revealed unto all, and Romans chapter 10, it talks about, had they not heard, yes, verily, their sound went unto all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world, but they have not all obeyed the gospel, obviously.

So, but yeah, you can go ahead, and then obviously we can, when you get into the critique, I can get into more detail on that.

The Golden Chain of Redemption in Romans 8

Stuff. Okay, all right. All right, thank you, sir. Let me reset the, unfortunately, I got, my timer has a beep beep on it, so. All right, I'll start my timer, and invite everyone to go back to Romans 8, 28.

Obviously, this is a continuation of Paul's argumentation, going all the way through the book of Romans. He has established justification now in chapter 8. He is really reaching the pinnacle of his argument, which is going to transition into chapters 9, 10, 11, in regards to the unbelief of Israel, and what God's purposes are in that situation.

So, he's summarizing things, and he says in verse 8, we know that to those who love God, all things work together for the good to those who are called according to his purpose. The phrase is, those loving God and those who are called according to his purpose are put in direct parallel to one another, because those who love God are those who have been called by God.

And of course, that calling originates in God, it is not based upon, I mean, if I call someone, that originates within me, so God is the one who is doing the calling. And so, the assertion that is being made here requires the theology that has come before, and that is that God is sovereign over all events in human history.

Otherwise, when you think of all of the free will acts of mankind, God would not be able to make the promise that in the lives of his chosen people, who are the people who love God, that all things work together for the good, especially given the fact that the Christian people experience tribulation and persecution, and yet the promise of God is in the midst of all of that, he has a purpose that he is accomplishing in and through his people.

That is what then prompts the discussion that comes in verses 29 and 30, which is one whole unit that must be understood together. And what we need to see is that there are certain verbs, there are certain actions that God undertakes in verses 29 through 30, which is the reason that theologians and exegetes down through the centuries have identified verses 29 and 30 as the golden chain of redemption.

And specifically, each one of these is an action on God's part. They are not passive actions on God's part, they are actions that God undertakes. So, foreknowing is not having foreknowledge. This is a verb.

And so, we need to have a discussion of what it means to—what's different between God passively having knowledge of future events or foreknowing someone. But notice that the verbs are to foreknow, to predestine, to call, to justify, and to glorify.

And each one of these is an action that God undertakes. In none of these verbs is there room for mankind adding something to what God has done. This is the basis of the explanation the apostle provides for his own promise in verse 28, is that the reason we can know that all these things work together for good is because we have a sovereign God who is able to do all of these things.

What are the things he does? Because those whom he foreknew. Now again, the background of this, the Hebrew term yadah, to know. When Adam yadad Eve, she had a child. When God yadad knew Israel, many translations will even say chose Israel above all other nations.

He knew Israel only, that is, he chose Israel. To foreknow is an active thing, and every single time when God is said to engage in the verbal action of foreknowing, the object is a person, never events in history.

And so I will challenge Pastor Robinson, if you're going to take the perspective that what he foreknows as actions, knowing that what we're going to do, then this is the only place in the Bible that ever happens.

Every other time where God foreknows, he foreknows Jesus, he foreknows Israel, and he foreknows us. He foreknows people, not actions, not what they do, but who they are. This is a loving choice to enter into relationship with someone.

And so this loving choice means that he predestines that we be conformed to the image of his son. Now, the only way that a rebel sinner can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ is to encompass the entirety of the work of salvation itself.

Regeneration, adoption, forgiveness of sins, sanctification, it is all seen in being conformed to the image of Christ. Everything to final glorification, resurrection, it is all there. In other words, God's purpose in foreknowing a particular people is to form the body of Christ for the glory of triune God, to join them to that body, and that is going to result in, inevitably, their salvation, their regeneration, their forgiveness, their justification, their glorification.

That is what is going to be taking place, but it's all in Christ, which is the parallel to Ephesians 1, where every single aspect of what God does in Ephesians 1 is in him, in the beloved, in Christ. Only in Christ, the gospel message is an exclusive message in and through the triune God and his work only in the person of Jesus Christ.

The result of this is so that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. So, Jesus is the prototokos, he is the firstborn, he is the one who has preeminence over all others in Colossians chapter 1, where that terminology is used.

And so, here is the forming of the body of Christ. Christ is the one who is going to form that body by his means, by his power, and we are being conformed to his image as a result of that sovereign purpose of God, which is why, again, we can know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

Four, he continues on, those whom he predestined, these he also called. And so, this has to be the same group all the way through. We have to have consistency here. Who is foreknown are those who are predestined, and those who are predestined are those who are called.

Now, very clearly, the term calling in the New Testament, you have a general call that goes out, the gospel call goes out to all people. But as Paul said, there is a calling that resulted in his salvation.

There is an action of God specifically that results in the salvation of these specific individuals. And if you are called by God in this way, that results in your justification. Now, keep in mind, we know that we are justified by faith, but there's nothing in here about faith.

God is the one who justifies, God is the one who calls, God is the one who predestines, God is the one who foreknew. Active verbs, each and every one. These are actions that God takes, and the results are infallible, and it's always the same group.

There is a specific group, and that group has been identified as those who are called according to his purpose. In verse 28, we're going to see down in verse 33, they're going to be re-identified in the same way.

This text is consistent all the way through. And so, the calling is effective, it results in justification, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified. There will not be any who receive the justifying grace of God, who are declared righteous before God, who will not persevere unto exaltation, glorification in the presence of God.

Now, that's such an incredible text that Paul says, what shall we say to these things? Because that is a tremendous promise. What shall we say to these things? For if God is for us, in our behalf, who can possibly be against us?

If God has done all of these things, and it's all of God and not any of us, then who could possibly be against us? And that really is a rhetorical question that has no answer. But then he expands even further upon this.

He did not spare his own son, but in behalf of us, freely gave him over. The term paradidomi there is the same term that's used of Judas's, turning Jesus over, betraying Jesus, giving Jesus over. In behalf of us, huper is a term of substitution.

This is substitutionary atonement, and it's substitutionary atonement for a specific people already defined back in verse 28 as those called by God. He gave his own son up in behalf of us all, and in light of that, how shall he not together with him freely, same term for grace, give to us all things?

Again, only in Christ, in light of the giving of son to a specific people. This is the foundation of verse 28, the great promise there. It's continuing on through the text. And then he takes us into the law court.

Who will bring a charge against who? The elect of God. That is a specific people. That's reasserting what we saw in verse 28. That's the ones for whom the son is given. It's a specific people, and the question that is asked is who can bring a charge against the elect of God?

We might ask, who can bring a charge against those who are not the elect of God? Well, we know who that is because the reason this is a rhetorical question and that there is no one who can bring a charge against the elect of God is because of the law court situation that is presented to us here.

Notice, God is the ha-dikion, the one justifying. God is the one justifying. That's the role of the judge on the bench. When the judge brings down the gavel and says, righteous or just, that is the judge giving his judgment.

And God, the father, is the justifier. He has said, you are just. How did that happen? Because of the work of Jesus Christ in behalf of the elect of God. Who then is the one bringing judgment or condemnation?

It's the exact same term that is used in legal documents of that day of bringing a charge against someone who is condemning Christ Jesus, the one who died, rather the one who rose. I love that because he gives his life, but because he has risen, he is now seated at the right hand of God and that at that position, he now intercedes kuper haimon, for us.

Who is the us? The elect of God. For whom does Christ intercede? His work of intercession means there can be no condemnation because it is specifically for a specific people who have died in him. They have his righteousness.

God has declared them righteous. Do you see how this is absolutely, completely a presentation of the God-centeredness of the Christian gospel? God accomplishes this. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bring this about completely and totally to the glory of the God.

And so, in this last section, verse 34, we have this idea who is at the right hand of God. This is the exaltation of the Son. Psalm 110 .1, the most quoted verse in the Old Testament in the New Testament.

Seated at my right hand. So, there was no place in the holy place for the high priest to sit, but Jesus has sat down at the right hand because he has offered the one and final sacrifice in behalf of the elect of God.

And now, he is seated there and we, a specific people, united with him, have his righteousness, and therefore, there can be no condemnation. There can be no charge brought against us because the intermediary, the mediator, has been accepted by the judge.

Since he has sat down at the right hand of glory, his work has been accepted. He has sat down there. We are united with him. We have his righteousness. And so, the whole question is, how can anyone bring a charge against those where the judge has said righteous?

The one he himself sent has died in their behalf. He intercedes for them through the presentation of his finished work in their behalf, which means his finished work is sufficient to bring about the perfect salvation of anyone, which is exactly the point that is made in Hebrews 7 .24.

He is able to save completely those who draw nigh unto God through him. Why? Because he ever lives to make intercession for him. If we ever look for anything outside of the interceding work of Christ to save us, we have missed the point because that's the only that can save us.

That's the only thing that can bring us true and final salvation. And so, the reason for verse 28, a verse that is quoted at almost every Christian funeral, the theology that underlies that is what is unpacked in verses 29 through 34.

And so, when we I worked as a hospital chaplain, for example, and when we quote that verse at the casket, when we quote that verse at the funeral and say that God causes all things to work together for good for those who love God, for them who are called according to his purpose, the reason we can say that is because the gospel is about the power of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to accomplish that which they decreed in eternity past to accomplish in the salvation of their people.

And that's what then leads into the tremendous song that comes after this in verse 35 and following, who will separate us from the love of Christ? And all these things in creation cannot begin to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ.

Why? Because it's something we're going to do? Because it's something we allowed him to do? No. Fully, totally, and completely because of the finished work of Jesus Christ, our mediator, who stands in the presence of the Father at the right hand of the Father, intercedes for us.

That is our only hope. That is the message of this beautiful text. Okay, managed to get that in with eight seconds free. So, with that, hopefully you can Pastor.

Robinson, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. So, I have 15 minutes to ask you questions?

Yes, sir. And then I'll have 15 minutes to ask you.

Questions About Foreknowledge, Ephesians 1, and Romans 8

Okay. So, the first verse I want to get to there, where you said, all things God decrees all things to work together for good, that's not what it says. It says, we know that all things work together for good.

And I do reject what your version or whatever you're using there to say that there are two caveats there. It says, to them that love God, and to them who are the called according to His purpose. And all I heard, honestly, with your explanation was a bunch of esoteric arguments and no scripture.

But I do have a question for you when it comes to that idea of God decreeing everything and everything that happens, the sovereignty of God, as you would say. So, let me ask you a question. I mean, do you believe that God decrees molestation or murder or, you know, let's say abortion, abortion claim.

Do you believe God is sovereign over that, that He decrees for that to happen?

Well, there are a couple questions there. First of all, you seem to dispute the relationship between those who love God and those who are called according to His purpose. However, in the original language, I wasn't using an English translation, I was translating the Greek directly.

And in the original language, those are parallel phraseologies, and they are meant to be the same group. So, those who love God and those who are called according to His purpose are the same group, and you would have to dispute that on the basis of the original language.

Secondly, when it says sunerga aes agathon, works together for the good, it is perfectly appropriate to recognize that it is God who is doing that working together, you have to provide the subject. I do not believe in a fate, I don't believe in the universe operating in and of itself.

And in answer to your question, I believe Psalm 135 .6, that God does whatever pleases in heaven and the earth. I believe that as Nebuchadnezzar recognized in Daniel chapter 4, he accomplishes his purpose among men, Psalm 33 says the exact same thing.

And so, hence, in answer to your large theodicy question, I do believe that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass, and that therefore, everything that happens in this universe has a purpose. I do not believe in a God who, though knowing what the future would be, created a mass of purposeless evil and then tells us to worship Him when He created all of this, knew it was going to happen, and did nothing about it.

I believe, just as Jacob did in Genesis chapter 50, you intended this for evil, God intended it for good. So, in any act of human sin, there is the intention to the glorification of God and to what is good in God's behalf.

And then, man is judged for the evil intention of his heart, just as in Genesis 50, Isaiah chapter 10, and the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ,.

According to Acts 4, 27 -28. Well, let me ask you this, in Jeremiah 19, when it's talking about, it says. In verse 5 of Jeremiah 19, it says, "...they have built us to high places a bale, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings on the bale, which I commanded not nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.".

Can you answer that verse with that theological reasoning that.

God is decreeing that? Sure. Given the fact that the Bible says that God not only is the creator of all things, but He knows the end from the beginning,. I'm not an open theist. I do not believe open theism is within the realm of orthodoxy.

And so, obviously, when you use a phrase such as, "...entered into my mind," you're talking about something that you desire, or something that you would maybe command of His people. The people were saying that their offerings to Moloch were consistent, at least, with their worship of Yahweh, which was untrue.

God never commanded them to do any of those things. They were clearly engaging in syncretistic worship, where they were joining Moloch worship together with Yahweh worship in the high places. And so, if you're actually asserting that God was shocked and surprised and had no idea from eternity past that His people were doing these things, that means God learned something, that God was not perfect before He learned this.

And I reject that. That is completely out of harmony with the entirety of Isaiah 40 -48. That would destroy the entire argument that is presented there as to the very nature of Yahweh. And so, you need to interpret that language within the plain statements of scripture, that God knows all future events, and He also knows all past events, and why those past events took place.

So, it is simply a matter of allowing.

All of scripture to speak. Let me ask you, well, so let's go on to a different,.