Aug 18, 2026 Show with Dr. Keith Evans on “The Nephilim Controversy”

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Iron Sharpens Iron and the Wisdom of Scripture

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of August 2026.

I am always delighted to have this returning guest on my program who has quickly become one of my very favorite guests. His name is Dr. Keith Evans. He is Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and former Director of the Biblical Counseling Institute and Academic Dean at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who has earned his doctorate in the study of the demonic realm.

Christian Counseling from a Biblical Perspective

Today we're going to be addressing a theme that seems to be discussed more and more lately on YouTube programs, especially the ones with the largest audiences. And I know that because of the fact that not all of these platforms are biblically sound Christian platforms, and the guests very often discussing these topics and related issues are Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and other theological backgrounds that are not biblically sound, I wanted to make sure that we had a theologically Reformed and biblically sound guest to address this theme, which is the Nephilim controversy, one theologian's minority view of their origins.

Demonic-human hybrids or something else? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Keith Evans. Thank you so much, Chris. It's great to be back. Why don't you briefly explain your post at Reformed Theological Seminary, otherwise known as RTS, in Charlotte, North Carolina.

You mean my academic post, what I do here? Okay. Yeah, I'm the associate faculty member in the counseling department. There are two of us in the counseling department, Dr. Jim Neuheiser, Reformed Baptist, and serving as the director of the program.

And I'm the associate faculty member. So, he teaches half of the counseling courses. I teach the other half of the counseling courses. And we do so from a biblical perspective, so it's not seeking to teach secular psychology from a Christian perspective, but instead, pastoral counseling, ministerial counseling, or what was historically referred to as soul care, so doing so from a biblical perspective.

Well, it makes my heart leap for joy that a Reformed Baptist holds such a high post. I'm speaking of Dr. Neuheiser, because of the fact that I'm a Reformed Baptist. And for years, RTS has been nearly exclusively Presbyterian.

Am I right on that? That's predominantly the case, yeah. There's 45 faculty members, and the majority of them would be Presbyterian. And we have been delighted to have Dr. Neuheiser as the chair of the counseling program.

And that does not mean that I appreciate your being there any less. By the way, I knew that that name was very familiar, because I've had Jim Neuhauser...Jim Neuheiser. Wait a minute. Did you say Neuhauser or Heiser?

Neuhauser? Yeah. Jim Neuhauser? Oh, yeah. I've had him on my program twice. Wonderful. As I look in the archives, he was on November 18th, 2016, on Help, I Need a Church. And then he was back on the program the following year, February 7th, 2017, Help, My Anger Is Out of Control, and Help, Someone I Love Has Been Abused.

So if anybody wants to look up those interviews with Jim Neuhauser, his last name is spelled N-E-W-H-E-I-S-E-R, Jim Neuhauser, and you will immediately have those two audio files come up on the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio website, that's ironsharpensironradio .com.

And if anybody wants more information on my guest, Dr. Keith A. Evans, go to rts .academia .edu forward slash Keith Evans, and that's one word, Keith Evans, no spaces or dots or anything like that at that point, rts .academia .edu forward slash Keith Evans.

The Nephilim in Genesis and the Major Interpretive Views

And we will repeat that, God willing, later on in the program. Well, as I said at the very outset of the show today, Dr. Keith, the subject of the Nephilim has captured the imagination of many folks, and even secular hosts of podcasts are inviting guests on who are described as experts in this area.

They are very often the same folks that are discussing the demonic realm, something that, as I've already mentioned, you have a doctoral dissertation on this realm of the demonic. And I know, being a Reformed evangelical Protestant, that you have just as much objection to much of what the Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy has to say about a lot of things, including many of the areas that you and I address.

But I wanted to have somebody on the program to discuss this coming from a background that is most similar to mine. And just to let our listeners know, I have had at least one other interview with a Reformed guest years ago on the Nephilim, and right now I can't seem to find that interview.

I will, at some point during the program, hopefully pull that up. It was so long ago, it may not even be listed on the new Iron Sharpens Iron website. It may be a program from the old days of WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island, and I have a feeling that is likely the case.

But the Nephilim—tell us where in the Scriptures these beings are found and described, and what are some of the more popular or what are the major views of what these beings are, what their origins are, and then we can finally settle on where you specifically land on your convictions, on where these beings originated.

And I know that you have already told me that you have a minority view, so I'm waiting with bated breath to hear that. But first of all, let's delve into the Scriptural references and what are the major options that Christian theologians typically give to what the origins of these beings are.

Absolutely. Now, that's an excellent and huge question, Chris. Let me back up just a second before jumping into the Scriptures themselves. This is becoming an increasingly talked-about topic, like you said, as people are fascinated by the bizarre, and I know that this is spoken of in the Scriptures, but this is a rather kind of fringe issue in the Scriptures.

It's not of central focus. And then there are entire series of podcasts on the topic of these kind of oddities, and I think that there is a bit of a deceptive nature even in that, that the evil one would want us to be focused on the fringe and the bizarre and get us distracted from that which is central.

Now, that doesn't illegitimize the conversation we're having here today, Chris, and say that we shouldn't be talking about it. But it is to say, you know, what takes our preoccupation? Is it Christ? Is it the glory of the triune God and His worship and praise?

Is it the centrality of the Word and what the Word has to say? Or is it, you know, ghost stories and alien encounters and all of the bizarre that we see focused on in the blogospheres and the podcasts?

But to your actual question, where do we see this show up, the Nephilim? They show up the first time in Genesis 6, and yet they're referenced beyond Genesis 6. Genesis 6 is really kind of the main area of debate, but they're mentioned in Numbers 13, Deuteronomy 2, Deuteronomy 20 as well.

We see a reference of giants and Goliath being descendants of these types of larger-than-life characters. So they're referenced throughout the Scriptures, not just in Genesis 6. But the passage in question, Chris, is really Genesis 6, verse 4.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

And so we read that and we're like, what on earth do we do with that? And so here we have the book of beginnings, and it's teaching us the beginnings of the Nephilim. It's teaching us something odd is taking place with regard to the sons of God and sons of men.

What is being stated? And then we see interpretation of this passage in the book of Jude and in the book of 2 Peter, and then depending on your interpretation, also 1 Peter. So the New Testament chimes in on what's going on here in Genesis 6, 4.

So even though it's a bit of a fringe issue or interpretation, we do see from Genesis all the way into the New Testament, different approaches to what's going on here. And sorry, I had myself on mute.

I know that many of my listeners will probably prefer that I was on mute the entire time of the program. But the major descriptions that Christian theologians have differed on when it comes to the origins of these beings, I know that there is one popular idea that these beings are the offspring of humans and fallen angels.

Human women and fallen angels, which many Christians have taught fallen angels are demons. Hence, my reference in the beginning are these demonic human hybrids or something else. And there are other understandings of this as well.

If you could continue with the main views that seem to be upheld by Christians throughout the centuries. Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, your question was a big question, Chris. So I'm sorry I didn't answer all the parts there in my first go.

The Angelic, Sethite, and Modified Angelic Views

And yeah, so there are three major interpretations in the church. There's the angelic view that these sons of God referenced in Genesis 6 are having relations with the daughters of men. So it's angels having relations with human beings and their offspring are the Nephilim, these giants who are seemingly living for an inordinate length of time.

They're engaging in grave evil. And so it's seeming the reason why God is saying, okay, these angels are uniquely chained in darkness, and I need to eradicate the level of wickedness that's taking place on the earth.

That angelic interpretation is the earliest known interpretation of Genesis 6. It's the predominant Jewish interpretation, and it was the predominant early Christian interpretation. But then, as popularized by Augustine and certainly the Reformed follow Augustine, the predominant Reformed view is that this is speaking of the children of Seth, the godly line, intermarrying with unbelievers, and that a prohibition of the godly line intermarrying with unbelievers and the great wickedness that's brought about because of that.

That's what's referred to as the Sethite view, and it's seeing that this is describing ordinary generation. As you trace Genesis 4 through Genesis 6, we're not dealing with angelic offspring, but instead we're dealing with ordinary generation in those passages.

And so we have this person begetting this person, and this person begetting another person, and Genesis 6 continuing on in that same idea. Now, there's one other view, and it is very much the minority view throughout history, but popularized by Meredith Klein, and that is that this is...

One of my favorite female theologians. I'm just kidding. Yeah, that's right. Meredith Klein is a man. As well as Lorraine Bettner is another great lady of the faith. Kim Riddle Barger, another one. I'm only kidding.

These are all men, folks. I know that. Kelly Tappock is another one, and he says that he is everyone's gateway drug to reading female theologians. So yeah, great men of the faith who have unique names.

But anyway, so back to Meredith Klein, he says that this is an intermarrying of... The sons of God are referencing powerful kings who are practicing polygamy and engaging in horrible tyranny, and they're marrying with the daughters of men.

So those are the three major views. And besides Meredith Klein's view, really the two major views throughout church history would be the angelic view or the more natural human view, intermarrying between believers and unbelievers.

Now, I would say that the predominant Reformed view throughout history, and it's certainly the major view today, is the human view, the Sethite view, that the descendants of Seth are intermarrying with unbelievers, and that's what's prohibited.

But it's been fascinating to see that not only the ancient interpretation and the dominant ancient interpretation of Genesis 6 was the angelic view, but there's a resurgence in a scholarship of embracing the angelic perspective of Genesis 6.

And that's because as we move away from a more naturalistic interpretation of things and just engage with the text linguistically, like what's the plain reading of the Hebrew, and then also the plain reading of the Greek in Jude, as well as 2 Peter, there's a reason why there's a resurgence of interest in the angelic view.

And if I could, could I just read Genesis 6? Yes, definitely. One and following here, just to see that really the natural reading, even in the English, forces us to wrestle with things in ways that make us feel uncomfortable.

So, when man began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive, and they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, his days shall be 120 years.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man, and they bore children to them, they were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

And I'll stop there. And so, here's what we have to grapple with, with regard to just the plain reading. We have a contrast established between human beings began to multiply, and the daughters of human beings are born to them, and there's a contrast of human beings with whatever the phrase in verse two means, the sons of God.

So the contrast, just plainly, even in the English, isn't between two groups of humans, but it's a contrast between human beings and whatever this phrase, the sons of God, refers to. And if you trace that phrase, the sons of God, throughout the scriptures, nearly universally in every instance, except perhaps Psalm 82, nearly universally, you see it in Job 1 and 2 and Job 38, you see it in many places throughout the scriptures, that phrase, the sons of God, refers to angels.

And so, that's why the historic view was, these are angels who are unduly lusting after human beings, and why there's been a resurgence, just as far as the linguistic study of the scriptures, a resurgence in the angelic view.

Jude and Second Peter on the Fallen Angels

Okay, I was just curious, when my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries heard about the interview that we would be having today, and the topic specifically, he told me that his view aligns most closely with the evangelical, biblical, Greek New Testament scholar, Kenneth Samuel Wiest, and I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, I don't know for sure, W-U-E-S-T, in his commentary, either from 2 Peter or Jude.

Do you know what that would be, and what are your thoughts on his views? I'm actually not familiar with that particular New Testament scholar, but I will say that I came to my studies of the demonic from a much more naturalistic perspective.

Like, for instance, when I was a young minister, I preached on the passage of being hospitable because some have entertained angels unaware. I preached that as though that's just in reference to earthly messengers, you know, the word angel can be interpreted messenger, so they've entertained some messengers unaware.

And so I interpreted that as, oh, these are just pastors or missionaries that people are entertaining in their homes, unbeknownst to them. And so I had a more naturalistic bent on just my interpretation of the Bible.

I don't say that with pride, I actually say that with shame. But that was just my natural approach to the text. And it was a New Testament scholar in his treatment of the book of Jude that forced me to re-grapple with Genesis 6, that it was really the book of Jude that forced me to take a view that I was otherwise uncomfortable with.

So, I held the Sethite view, the humans intermering with unbeliever view, until I was really forced to grapple with Jude 6 and 7. And if I could go there, just very briefly, Jude 6 and 7, it says this, the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he is kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued a natural desire, serves as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. And so, pausing there, notice how the author Jude is arguing about the sexual immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah, and he's likening it, just as Sodom and Gomorrah, he's likening it to what the angels engaged in, and there the word is undeniably angels, so there's not a question about sons of God, what's that reference to?

Angels did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, and he's kept them in eternal chains for whatever they engaged in, in Genesis 6. And we see a parallel in 2 Peter 2, 4, and 5 as well, saying basically the exact same thing.

So, can you just repeat exactly where you stand, and also let us know on what level you hold this as a conviction? Are you nearly certain, or do you still just hold this as a theory? And if you could just explain in detail again your view.

The Modified Angelic View

Yeah, absolutely. So, when I teach this in my class, I teach spiritual warfare and Christian counseling, and so I don't want to tackle Genesis 6. It's a topic that I would love to avoid if I could, but it always comes up, right?

People are like, well, what does this mean? Explain this. And so, I'm always willing to stake my colors to the master or whatever, but I always feel uniquely uncomfortable in doing so. And as far as how firmly I hold it or how not firmly I hold it, I do believe it's the natural reading of Genesis 6, especially in the Hebrew, and I do believe it's the natural reading of Jude as well as 2 Peter.

But it has been long accepted as a legitimate biblical interpretation that if you hold to the intermarrying view of believer and unbeliever, that is perfectly biblically legitimate. Like, I don't think that that is like, oh, if you hold that, you're wrong and you're doing, you know, it's something biblically wrong.

Just as I trust that those who would hold the human view wouldn't look historically at those who hold the angelic view and say that they're wrong. There have been really good people throughout history who have held to the angelic view.

But let me just give a few names. James Boyce, Wellam, Derek Kittner, Barnhouse, A .W. Pink. You've heard of the commentators, Keelan DeLeach, the Old Testament commentators. DeLeach held to the angelic view.

Merrill Unger held to this. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cotton Mather, at least in his younger years. So, all of that is to say, like, this isn't just a fringe interpretation for weird demonologists or something.

It's a legitimate biblical interpretation. But to put a point on it, what my actual view is—and here's why I say it's a minority interpretation—I believe the text presents sons of God, angels, violating their proper place and station to intermarry with human women.

And that effort results in raising up these giants on the land. And it's a great and horrendous evil that these angels receive unique punishment, as Jude 6 indicates, for what they've done. But the text also presents ordinary generation in Genesis 4 -6 of ordinary begetting.

And so, how do we grapple with these two ideas, that there's something supernatural taking place, or we could say preternatural taking place, and yet there's also something uniquely human taking place as far as ordinary generation?

And so, I hold to what is the modified angelic view. You see this throughout Scripture, but that's...I'm sorry, you see this throughout history. People hold to the modified angelic view, that it's people were seeking demon possession.

These kings and rulers and men of renown, they were seeking demon possession, and they're intermarrying with women and raising up these great men of renown, these wicked men and rulers, and producing this unnatural offspring.

And so, that keeps us being honest with the text that is dealing with angels, and it also keeps us honest with the text that is dealing with ordinary generation. So, I hold to the minority position of what is known as the modified angelic view.

Whether Angels Can Have Physical Relations

Now, who from history—you mentioned those that held to a preternatural view completely, from what I understand, unless I've misunderstood you— that these were fallen angels that had sexual union with human women and gave birth to hybrids.

These would be, by virtue of these angelic beings being fallen, these would be demonic entities who had intercourse with these women, human women. You listed some noteworthy scholars, highly respected scholars in the Reformed faith, like Dr. James Montgomery Boyce, but I think you included the Wellam brothers.

Did you not? Gordon Wenham. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the Wellams. But who were some, if there are any, prominent theologians from history who held to the modified view that you were just describing?

Yeah. So, former RTS professor at RTS Jackson, Willem van Gammeren, was the one who argued, perhaps most strongly in recent years, for reclaiming the angelic view. And he grants a strong place for those who are uniquely uncomfortable with the angelic view.

How do angels have relations with human women? And he concedes, if you want to hold to the modified angelic view, that is a legitimate interpretation. And then my professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, William Cook III is his name, and he's written a book, Spiritual Warfare, in...

Oh, what's the exact title of his book? I lost track of it off the top of my head. Spiritual Warfare and the Story of Scripture. And William Cook III, he holds to the modified angelic view as well. And I believe that the way that it's presented at Southern Baptist Seminary, that that is the position that Southern Baptist Seminary is putting forth, is that modified angelic view.

So, even though it is a minority interpretation, it does have a solid Reformed pedigree, so it's not just completely fringe. And why would you rule out, even though you believe that it's within the realm of orthodoxy to hold to a preternatural understanding where demons are intermarrying with human women, it is not your view, would you believe that this is impossible?

The typical argument I have heard is that since the angelic realm is spirit, they could not have sexual union or procreate, especially with human beings. Is that your main argument to this? So, Matthew 22 verse 30 says that in the consummation and glory, we will not be given into marriage.

We won't be married and we won't be given into marriage. We will be like the angels in heaven. So, that seems to speak that angels don't engage in relations. In hell. In heaven. Yeah, certainly. Now, those who would hold the strict angelic interpretation would say, well, that's the point of Jude verse 6, is that they transgressed their natural boundaries and they engaged in relations with human women.

So, point is well taken. But I guess I don't know metaphysically, like, how is it that a spiritual being is able to have physical relations with a human woman and to raise up physical offspring? Because the way the Scriptures talk about the Nephilim and these giants in the land, you know, descendants from the Nephilim, they're referred to by different names later, like the Anakim, as well as, there are other names in the Scripture referred to these giants, but they're still dealt with as flesh.

They're not some flesh hybrid. And so, if they're raising up flesh, I just don't know how that works if not to get from, you know, fleshly unions. So, that's why I take the modified interpretation. But there have been some proposals as to how this is possible.

So, we see in elsewhere in the book of Genesis, Genesis 19 verses 1 through 11, that angels appear as men, they eat, that they are even lusted after, you know, in the Sodom and Gomorrah tale, they're sexually lusted after by men.

And so, those who would hold the strict angelic views suggest that there's scriptural data that shows angels are able to interact bodily with human beings and even some warrant to sexual interaction there in Genesis 19.

So, I'm certainly open to that possibility. Again, I hold my perspective loosely or tentatively because, again, this is a rather fringe topic when it comes to biblical interpretation. Tom. Yes. Going back to defend the angelic view, which, again, would be a demonic view because of the fact that we're talking about fallen angels, you would think that if it was impossible for there to be sexual union between angelic beings and humans, that the angels would have put Lot at ease because he was trying to protect them from being raped by these homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And you would have thought that they would have said, you don't need to protect us, they can't do anything to us, you know what I'm saying? Am I right on that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a legitimate argument, right?

Like, I don't think it was good that Lot offered his daughter, right, or daughters, but there is a genuine protection from homosexual gang rape that needs to take place there, of that there's at least the appearance of real threat.

And so they would have said, well, angels were non-corporeal, and this is not possible. I think that that's a legitimate argument to be made. Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If you would like to join us with a question of your own on the Nephilim, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

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Demons, the Book of Enoch, and the Spirits of the Nephilim

Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is a return visitor to Iron Sharpens Iron radio. He is our resident demonology expert, and he has become one of my favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

And we are discussing the origins of the Nephilim today. If you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

I just want to quickly plug tomorrow's guests on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. I have, returning to the program, my dear friends, Tom Smith, president of First Love Ministries, which also runs First Love radio, who live streams Iron Sharpens Iron radio every day, Monday through Friday.