Toronto Blessing — George Verwer

Wisdom, Unity, and Discernment in Controversial Christian Experiences

We're here to talk about what's referred to as the Toronto blessing in my Bible studies lately. And I want to lay a few foundations before we get into the specifics. I Have been amazed at the phenomenal emphasis on wisdom.

Especially in the Psalms. But also many other places in the Word of God there's a great emphasis on wisdom and on knowledge and when we come to some of these complicated areas that top Theologians are fighting over I Tell you we need a lot of wisdom as we attempt to try to understand and make right decisions in our own lives.

Satan is a roaring lion seeketh whom he may devour and we know that one of Satan's great strategies is to attempt to bring disunity among God's people. And we don't overemphasize this here on do loss and in the ship ministry, I hope not but Satan Constantly tries to bring disunity to this ship within departments within cabins within families and As we face a new challenge of something Unusual going on in the churches.

It of course does affect us Here on the ship some on the ship have been into meetings where these things are happening. Some people have already heard this is happening back in their home church if you're British.

Because the main country in the world where this is happening is Great Britain. You know, you cannot be just ignorant of what is going on. And this is why I think it is good that we're discussing this now.

I believe as we talk about this There's going to be a number of other biblical principles that may be life principles. I'm always looking for life principles. Life principles from the Word of God I can base my life on.

And I'm amazed of how many people don't seem to go for life principles things that are big things that you can build upon a couple of life principles that really have helped me in my own spiritual pilgrimage is That God is working in different people in different ways.

And we got two Thousand years of mega history to prove it. I've had the privilege of living in about 50 or 60 countries visiting and ministering in thousands of churches and fellowshipping with thousands of Christian leaders and I am amazed to see God moving on one hand and someone like Billy Graham and On the other hand someone like Benny Hinn people who would appear to be So unbelievably different.

I doubt if they've ever had a conversation though they both live in the United States. Maybe we could organize that. So God is God is working in different people in different ways number two and It's encouraging to see a few people taking notes that's I had heard there were several serious people on the ship and this is a real Encouragement to me, but forgive my cynicism I have to often repent of it, but you know after 40 years in the ring you do You know like Rocky for you might have been punched a little bit start to feel it but God is working in different churches in different ways different churches in different ways.

Linked with that is the simple proof of history that these different churches are not going to easily change and copy the church down the road. They might change a little. Especially if the people down the road are grace awakened people.

I know how to win friends and influence people. I Have such an impact in this movement that when I told people to read Dale Carnegie's book how to win friends and influence people a Fair number decided they would never read that book no matter what.

That's what you call a sort of normal rebellious spirit and it's It's difficult to know how to handle it. But I perhaps should just say that I would warn you against reading Dale Carnegie's book how to win friends and influence people.

It's a secular book. It's probably got some New Age twitches in it there's a real possibility that you could you know develop a decent personality and this could lead to all kinds of friendships and Communication complications people beginning to like you and the whole thing could get so unbelievably Confusing so you probably don't want to read how to win friends and influence people just press on and be your good old obnoxious self.

Fortunately you might find at least one person crazy enough to marry you and Maybe that somehow she's read the book and you'll be able to or he be able to make it through life. Anyway that used to be a required book among leaders, and it's a secular book.

It's in many different languages. God is working in different people in different ways. God is working in different churches in different ways. Number three. Anything that is interdenominational as operation mobilization in many many other groups.

Whitcliffe ONF I Could list a whole group of groups are faced with some very special difficulties. That people are not faced with when they're all going to the same church. They're all signing the same doctrinal statement.

One of the men who gave quite a lot of money to log us to has now hired somebody to handle his giving and They seem to be rather Narrow. They've sent me a four-page small print doctrinal statement and They're very discouraging to read that.

Realizing they want to mainly give to people who have the same doctrinal statement. Four pages they've got everything down you know about the second coming about almost the temperatures in hell every Detail, and I don't know how you know I don't know how we're going to relate to that organization anymore, and it's very disappointing to me and This group which of course I won't tell you what country they're from are going to have difficulty relating to anything that's sort of international or Interdenominational because you can't have that finely tuned doctrinal statement and be Interdenominational it just it just will work.

You may call yourself interdenominational, but in fact you're creating your own Denomination. Another thing I hope that we can just put as a bottom-line principle. Is that the road that we have taken these?

Between 30 and 40 years depending if you want to go back right to my conversion and what God did in that high school of Respecting people who are evangelical who are biblical whether they're evangelical or even or charismatic evangelical.

That's the big term. They're using in England now. I Just had breakfast with Clive Calvary's the head of the evangelical alliance boy. He says you know charismatic evangelical. They want to emphasize the work of the Holy Spirit.

They want to emphasize evangelical doctrine. But as we think about this We we are faced with many many many challenges, and we have to face our own limitations. But we do have 35 years of seeing tens of thousands of people come to Christ.

And would be a lot more except we have chosen to work in the countries where up to now not many are coming to Christ. We don't measure things. Always by that, but of course we're looking for fruit. We have about a hundred ministries a hundred ministries that trace their birth back to OM and we have Thousands of people who are in ministry in all well.

Just such a wide range of different groups, and I want to go into detail about this. But I think God has honored our sort of Middle Road position of majoring on the majors. And As we face new controversy in the church, whatever it is we want to look at our roots.

We want to look at the word we want to look to the Lord and get wisdom, and we're not all going to agree. This is probably even the uniqueness about my talk tonight. I'm not going to try to get all you do agree.

I'm gonna make some effort to keep you living together in love and harmony. And when you get off OM which comes very quickly. You you will have of course more freedom probably than when you're here. Now that may not be true if you belong to a church that has very strong authoritarian leadership.

You may discover that you don't have so much freedom. I have so many letters coming from people who are in authoritarian churches their whole books now written about manipulation in the church and. The last thing we want to ever have in OM I can't say we've never failed is any kind of manipulation and.

And I think it's a terrible thing if we manipulate people at the same time. There may come at times a fine line between persuasion. We must persuade people and. Of course the world if you're out there talking to somebody that if he dies he's gonna go to hell.

The world says you're a manipulator. But you believe from the Word of God that you're a persuader. Well, I am convinced that unity comes in the midst of diversity and. Some of you probably in the next year or two will be in a meeting Where the the Holy Spirit is working in unusual way and you will have some kind of unusual experience in which you feel the grace of God in a greater way or the love of God in a greater way or the power of God and we would never want to despise that experience and As we look at this particular Phenomena that's taking place.

Origins and Spread of the Toronto Blessing

I believe we need that kind of wisdom now. Let's give a little bit of history about this Experience. There's masses being written about this five books came out just like that. You know we get a missions book about every once in a while a new missions book come out but we had five books on this subject within months and they are selling and The books that I've looked at and the articles that I've read point out that this goes back quite a way.

There's there's a bit of controversy and that some are saying this started with a man an evangelist from South Africa known as God's Holy Ghost bartender Rodney Brown. Other people are claiming it started with Wimber.

Other people are claiming it started with Benny him. But certainly one of the places where some really hot things have been happening in the last couple of years is Argentina and There have been amazing Emotional outbursts in Argentina when I was there I preached in a little church after I preached half the people left they moved the chairs out, and then they moved into using some of my good friends choruses Marcos wit those choruses I will tell you they are dynamite.

I was listening to one of those choruses on Lagos to and I got dancing over the back of the ship it's almost fell overboard, but It was that music if you don't know anything about Marcos wit in Latin America well, it's too bad because tell you they know how to sing they know how to dance they know how to leap they know how to jump and There have been phenomenal outbursts and there have been also a lot of conversions so things were happening in Argentina a couple of years ago of course we can go back before that and this different kinds of More emotional blessings.

Slaying in the spirit that kind of thing has been going on for years, but usually it's been Somewhat unnoticed or it's been confined to certain kinds of churches and a lot of people a lot of God's people haven't been that aware of it.

Benny Hinn certainly popularized some of the more intensive Benny Hinn's method was blowing the spirit and though you may be skeptical some of our people have gone to these meetings and they've seen things that that are they're just Holy Spirit and whole the whole choir who knocked right off the chairs on to the floor it brings quite a Response from the congregation I can assure you unfortunately Benny Hinn had some heretical things in some of his books.

So that brought a big storm and Benny Hinn and Had a visit by a few Christian leaders. He was also very much into prosperity. And as far as I can see Benny Hinn made some changes and That was encouraging.

The reason this is called the Toronto blessing is because in a Vineyard church at the end of the airport in Toronto Canada Things really started to happen. Now apparently some of the people from that church went somewhere else in the states Where Rodney Brown was and these things were happening.

No need to mention the churches, but then they went to vineyard and and it just took off. Maybe it's because it was at the end of the runway, but it just it just took it just took off and soon. People were hearing about it in Britain and people were going over there now.

Revival Expectations and Biblical Priorities

Let's just drop back a little and say there's a lot of Christians Who have been praying for revival intensively for a long time. Several revivals major revivals were prophesied for Britain for four years ago three years ago the big Wimber meetings didn't happen a lot of agony a lot of confusion came by that and Some disunity because when people says thus saith the Lord it's going to happen.

They all gathered in Docklands for these big meetings special people flew in and it didn't happen. Didn't mean God didn't work there, but they certainly didn't see major revival in Britain. There have been some big prayer meetings in the National Exhibition Stadium.

For a number of years have been more and more books about revival. So that builds up a tremendous spirit of hope and expectation. Which is good, but if it doesn't have balance it also can be Dangerous now some of you know my own conviction that revival is always plan B.

At plan A is that from the moment our fair conversion when the Holy Spirit enters in us we walk in Jesus. We grow in Jesus. We keep short accounts with God and we walk by day. It's when God's people get cold and backslide bitter whatever.

Then they need revival. If you've been around om for very long, you know we often talk about personal revival. That's that's our inheritance in Jesus. And then we talk about corporate revival may be in a church it may be in a group of churches.

It may be in a nation as a student of revival now for about 30 years Mike and I just listened to another whole series of tapes of revival a great Bible teacher. I Have just an enormous struggle with this subject.

Because if revival is where it's at why? Does it happen so seldom? What kind of a God do we have that we got these people begging and begging and begging for revival fasting and praying I? Remember when I first arrived in London this group is fasting and praying for revival year after year after year after year.

This is 30 years ago. Never happened. Now some of you know that I struggle probably with more than most people with with various and sundry doubts but my own conviction and this isn't necessarily om's official policy is That teaching about revival.

I'm not talking about Toronto blessing now in background teaching about revival needs a lot of balance and we need to get into the New Testament and See what the New Testament teaches about revival rather than just telling stories out of the Hebrides.

I know more about the Hebrides revival. I think that most people one little tiny tiny part of Great Britain books are written about it tapes are written about it. They're still talking about it, but in fact it was confined to those islands.

It never hardly spread anywhere else and by the time I got to the Hebrides a few years after the place was as dead as Any place on planet Earth, so I say to myself. What is all this about on the other hand these stories when you hear them?

You you you some people go completely cuckoo and the only thing they're interested in is revival. Where to me the New Testament clear clearly teaches we all are obligated to live for Jesus Christ. With or without these great revivals the Holy Spirit lives in us, that's big and We get this emphasis of the Holy Spirit coming down or the Holy Spirit coming in.

And I'm not saying we should never emphasize that it's complex. But I think the more important emphasis you are a temple of the Holy Spirit. He lives in you and the potential I tell you is big. Maybe because I discovered that at 17 years of age and have experienced it every day ever since that I'm biased.

Forgive me. I still pray for revival. I Praise God when that little Asbury revival hit. I remember sitting in Bangladesh listening to the tape about the Asbury revival. It was a couple of years. Maybe you're too wonderful things happen, and then it went.

Does that mean God disappeared from Asbury College for the next 20 years? No. Could it be that revival is more God's rescue program for sleepy Saints and Slimy Saints forgive the terminology, but when we get into sin.

That's what it's about and That we need to get back a little more closer to plan a Linked with this as I look at the lives of hundreds and hundreds of men and women of God. Many of them have never had these earth-shaking Mega emotional experiences.

Many of them they've never had many have so. It's just back to my first principle God working in different people in different ways and In in the end of the day it is a mystery. God's working is a mystery.

Romans 11 and the Mystery of God’s Wisdom

Maybe you could look with me at the Bible to the 11th chapter of Romans. This is so minister to me. We have the 12th chapter that we and no M preach until your ears hurt. But in the 11th chapter of Romans, I believe you have a very important verses leading up to chapter 12.

Look at this Romans 11 the last few verses. It's called God's matchless wisdom. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God how unsearchable are his judgments his ways past finding out.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord who hath been his counselor? Who at first given to him and shall be recompensed unto him again. For of him and through him and to him are all things to whom be glory forever.

Amen. Okay, that's that's powerful. That's spiritual meat. I guess I'm sharing this because I feel there is a danger and let me just understand. Let me just say this that men and women who are very committed to the Toronto blessing.

They're right in the middle of it. I've read their works. They including say Gerald Coates are putting out tremendous warnings. I was at the American the British Conference of Evangelists, probably half the people there have been in the Toronto blessing and They had some of this happening in in one of the evening meetings.

I Couldn't see it from where I was. I just had prayer with a brother next to me. God would give us whatever he had for us. But I wasn't there in sort of the ring and I didn't want to be a spectator and just go looking.

So I went to my room and and prayed there. But these men and women who are in this most of them now are Writing articles as fast as they can't warning people of all the dangers and all the problems. Because even when people have had a real encounter with the Holy Spirit It's always just no matter what one more step one more step.

Maybe a big step. It may be the most emotional step the person has ever had in their life, and they will surely never forget it. But it's still one more step. You remember in Toulon one of the evening meetings when I shared right here The Spirit of the Lord seemed to move in an unusual way.

We can't measure many many people came forward here was just completely full quite a few were weeping some were sitting on the floor and Though the Toronto blessing Would seem to be that much more high-powered.

Making this look like just something very calm though for some Oh emers what was happening up here seemed to be Pretty pretty intensive compared to what goes on in their church. We have people from churches that have never had an altar call.

They've never had people going forward weeping much less crying laughing or grunting or anything else along that line. And it's something we've got to we've got to respect and we've got to keep in mind.

The Toronto Blessing’s Expansion and Manifestations

From Toronto just to pick up the story a little more it spread especially to Holy Trinity Brompton a big Anglican Church in central London. Now it spread to other places, but it was Holy Trinity Brompton that hit the press major.

Press coverage in Great Britain imagine that the major newspapers. Soon there were queues lines of people trying to get in Holy Trinity Brompton for the Sunday evening service. Now this church like many Anglican churches is already in the charismatic tradition.

They already have leaders who are trained in that tradition in that way of doing things and so. They were in a sense prepared. It's not like this suddenly happening down in a church the other end of the road.

Where? They've not had this kind of manifestation. I certainly haven't heard of anything like this happening at all souls laying and trickling in place. John Stott's great church. There's some discussion about it.

But it's a different kind of church. It's a different ethos and so far. Last I heard nothing had happened. They're not that far away. It also came very heavily into Icna's fellowship. That's when OM people Got involved because the number of OEM errs go to Icna's fellowship and one OM woman who was actually in the process of leaving OM Came to me and shared how God had done something very precious in her life.

And it just seemed to be a blessing to her helping her through a lot of hurt and a lot of crises. What are some of the manifestations? First of all people just seemingly under the power of the Holy Spirit though some of course who are against this.

Deny this people just collapse, and they sometimes remain seemingly unconscious for five minutes ten minutes even longer. On the floor they usually make a space in the churches so they can handle these things now sometimes it seems to happen spontaneously other times people have hands laid on them and In that case sometimes they gets a catcher they get somebody behind them when they lay hands on them so when they pass out.

So there's somebody can catch him because in fact people have been hurt. Over the years like I say these things aren't new in certain kinds of churches some of your own churches. So they've learned over the years how to catch people.

How to handle these situations. I remember in a church because I preach in every kind of church you could ever imagine. After the meeting and after I preached a lady walked up boom she collapsed right in front of me and sort of passed out and I I Wanted to help her.

I didn't know what to do. She's very large lady. I didn't want to attempt to get her lift her up. But an elder quickly came to my rescue and he said leave her alone. She does that every week. Just get on and do something else.

I Found this a little difficult, and I am not exaggerating. My experience in that particular situation. That by the way was a great special meeting in the city of Manchester organized by a friend of mine.

Last time I saw him he said well, I mean that's all dried up. That's all over. We close that that's finished. I think this is a one of the other things that some of us are struggling with we seem to live in days of such tremendous instability.

We seem to have so many unstable people so many hurting people. They are vulnerable. They are vulnerable to Emotional manipulation, I'm not saying all of this is emotional manipulation, but surely that is a problem.

And I fear that if it's not handled carefully in the church. That the end of the day a lot of people are going to be hurt and a lot of people are going to be disillusioned because usually with this come all kinds of promises of revival of blessing we've been through this again and again in so many countries people promising things that never come and Then nobody really coming up and being honest and saying well, maybe we did get it wrong.

I love Davey Wilkerson. He's a friend of mine, but he claimed 25 years ago this was going to happen within the next few years and it did not happen and A lot of people were confused. He also went into a lot of confusion in his ministry.

He later said on tape which most people never heard that he had maybe the timing rule. The first thing that was going to happen was a complete collapse of the German economy. That was going to be one of the first things the German economy has been going on strong ever since though in the last couple Of years there certainly has been a slight a slight dip, but nothing what we're talking about in this in this book so we forgive us with a teaching of a W tozer and we OM leaders tend to have a little bit of reverent skepticism about some of the things people are claiming and It's one of the things that scares me the most about the movement.

I'm part of 82 ,000 we are already being criticized by very godly people. Because we made claims certain people have made claims and when you get there It wasn't true when I was with you in Dubai a brother came to me.

And he said I have gone to Kuwait because I was told of a hundred or two hundred Muslims that have come to Jesus and they need pastoring when he got to Kuwait He could not find him because they did not exist.

It's a serious thing. It's a serious thing integrity is important men and women of the Word of God another one of the manifestations, that's Extremely controversial is laughing. Again I Can see some positive things.

I I more easily see positive things and some of the people I fellowship with you may doubt that but I fellowship pretty interesting crowd. But I know that one woman who laughed Uncontrolled laughter when interviewed had not laughed for two years.

She had suffered child abuse she had suffered other heavy stuff. Heavy stuff. The sexual arena should not laugh for two years and to me It's it's I can't say I know this is for sure. But it seems as almost like God just pulled the cork and healed her and just let her laugh.

Some people would say well if they're coming forward in this great group and some are crying and some are laughing is tremendous noise. It's not such a problem because you can't you really it's just bedlam.

You can't even hear what's going on. The problem is when a guy is expounding the word this is happening. Expounding the Word of God and somebody in the audience Just starts uncontrolled laughter. Now I find it difficult To preach when things start happening little baby start crying, but I've learned to handle that.

People start staring at you. I don't know if you've preached in those situations where people try to cast a spell on you know I mean, I've had a lot of interesting experiences, but Uncontrolled laughter while you're trying to preach that has become very controversial.

Now I was in a church where the Toronto blessing was happening in a small way. It was actually a united meeting. It's actually a missions meeting. One of the house group movements is a tremendous time those people Responded to the message as much as any group.

I've ever ministered to. And when one person started to laugh Two stewards were on her or him. I can't remember within seconds they had her out the door and They let her laugh in the maybe they got Laughing rooms, but hey They let her laugh.

So though that group that group is very strong on Freedom and wanting God to blow the place apart. You should hear some of the things they say from the pulpit about being free but they Didn't want that going on at that particular time.

But certainly the uncontrolled laughing. There's a book about that now. There's also books against it. That is a hot issue. That is a hot issue. We'll perhaps get on to the back to that. Later on or maybe in the question answer time there are some reports of healing.

There haven't been a lot. Those are traditional things that happen in Pentecostal charismatic churches and other churches. There are some reports certainly Of things happening That I don't think any of us would disagree with.

Evaluating Reported Fruit and Revival Claims

Let me read from a relatively balanced article in the one of the British Baptist papers, I thought this was very Positive because I think we've got to look at some of what people feel are positive results.

How we are to assess this is by David coffee one of the leaders of the Baptist Church in Britain. How we are to assess the accounts of the extraordinary manifestations of the Spirit of God at work in some of our churches through the so-called Toronto Blessing.

Many many people by the way feel it's so unfortunate such a blessing is named after some city. Canadians of course are having massive Discussion over it. A very high percentage of Canadians right across the nation don't know anything about it that much except a little that they've read because it is limited to a Relatively small number of churches so far in Canada.

We have now had the opportunity to receive reports from a wide range of opinions across the country. There's no doubt in our minds that God has been at work. Whatever Baptist may personally feel. Whatever questions they may want to ask the evidence is that There are many Christians in local churches who have been touched by this blessing.

There is the evidence of Semico get some water here churches where repentance and Reconciliation has transformed the life of a fellowship. To that we could only say praise God to communities where the lapsed Have been restored backsliders.

I mentioned in the beginning. They've been restored three churches where conversions have been recorded. For congregations who have experienced times of refreshing from the Lord. Then those who testify to a new hunger for God fresh concern for others.

And it goes on to talk about some of the other things that have taken place. I think most Christian leaders would acknowledge that if there is just that special emotional experience and Touch of God or infilling or whatever you want to call it and nothing happens after that.

No life has changed. No fruit no witness then then what really would be the purpose? I Think they would be in a majority Would would agree with that. It's just that once this gets going Sunday after Sunday How do you how do you handle it?

And believe me some Christian leaders right now on under phenomenal pressure knowing how you know, what is the next step? We were involved in world missions. Or be you know crying out to God for workers Rather than being negative.

We are trying to ask Lord. Is this gonna bring a new army of harvesters into the mission work? You know if God has to do some kind of mighty kickstart. I think of this thing sometimes as as jump-starting.

I mean, we know a lot about jump-starting. Oh, you know and because there are so many vehicles Don't start properly. You have to push them. I never forget the day. I discovered that a diesel truck only has to be pushed a few yards and it will often jump-start quicker than a petrol vehicle and Could this be one of God's sort of jump-start?

Programs in answer to prayer so many people backslidden so many people wounded so many people hurt. So many people through divorce. So many in our churches have been through divorce and broken relationships.

They're hurting people the vulnerable. Unfortunately, sometimes the good as well as Brad. And is this is this one of God's rescue programs? I'm not telling you that don't go writing to your church. George Verwer said this I'm asking you a question that you have to wrestle through yourself, but could it be now we know That if there are some authentic things going on Immediately Satan is going to try to copy or bring what's the word I want Counterfeit thank you Satan Immediately does that and people in this movement?

They are concerned about counterfeit. They are concerned about people just copying. Seeing somebody else seemingly fall down laugh and Seemingly getting blessed man. They want to get it as well. They're standing there.

Nothing seems to happen. They fall down anyway, I Tell you I'm the kind of temperament. And if you follow my early years of my Christian life to get a blessing from God, I did some really strange things.

You know the idea of operation mobilization came to me after being arrested by the KGB. Coming back for a day of prayer in Austria. I was on the top of a tree. I Mean I could have launched a complete tree climbing movement at that time that could have Rapidly spread maybe across the world and thousands of Christians would be climbing trees.

And getting this George Verwer treetop blessing and who knows what could happen. I Think most of you know the story of the lady who got the leap. Experience she was into leaping and Once she leaped and just got that she felt by the Holy Spirit.

And it changed her life. And so she beat she got into a teaching ministry and she taught the theology of the leap. Now I have a difficulty when people system make systematic theology out of special times of Unusual Activity and that's what I fear in this and I fear that the very churches Who are in this are gonna split?

I'm not so worried about the church down the road that isn't in it. They got other problems. I'm worried about them, too. This is I'm worried sometimes about OM. But the churches where this is happening already some people are getting tired of it.

The things that happened and Relationship complications still go on lust and other problems still go on. Do you think these things happen in a vacuum that everything else stops? While these special times of blessing go on no life goes on complications go on.

And one of the things that's happened is When churches have experienced a lot of heavy emotion Satan tries to set them up for immorality. One of the most famous pastors in the whole of Argentina has just been caught living in massive adultery.

It has shaken the church in Buenos Aires. People are hurt people are disillusioned. Imagine the thousands of people go to that church. They once one minute they think they got the most spirit-filled pastor and the greatest man on earth the next moment He's exposed for massive adultery and immorality.

That is spreading. It has been spreading long before people were ever talking about this. That will not go away through spiritual crises. It will go away as people learn to discipline themselves. As people learn to deny self as people develop the kind of witness that Lois Mowdy talks about in that book the snare.

And our burden is to give every one of you a copy of the snare before you ever leave. Om. I just had lunch with Lois remember her she preached some of you remember her at the conference in Debron. Just had the privilege of meeting her husband and being with her in Colorado.

The new edition of her book is out in the United States. And I think we need to understand and a lot of the leaders in this they do understand this. They would say amen to what I'm saying right now. These things do not happen in a vacuum.

It must be followed by discipleship by training by the discipline life by the crucified life by intercessory Prayer and all the other aspects of Christian living that are outlined in the Word of God. Somehow those of you who may be More critical or more skeptical than others at least for your own personal situation, please.