Pacifism

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the Edification of the Saints before we dig into our topic. We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you.

I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Durham Chris Kiesler David Casson. Sadly, Andrew Hudson is not with us tonight because he's got a little bit of a bug. He's feeling a little bit ill. So we're praying for him and we hope to see him back soon in the seat across from us.

Romans 12 and the Question of Pacifism

But we're gonna go ahead and get started with a question that we had Come in back in May when we were finished recording for season 3 and we're gonna go ahead and read it now. Does Romans 12 9 through 21 teach that Christians have to be pacifists?

What about fighting evil? Don't we also have a responsibility to fight at times. Michael you want to start us off?

Sure, so Romans 12 verses 9 through 21. So here's what the passage says. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love in Honor giving preference to one another not lagging in diligence.

Fervent in spirit serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Continuing steadfastly in prayer distributing to the need of the Saints given to hospitality. Bless those who persecute you.

Bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men if it is possible as much as Depends on you. Live peaceably with all men. Beloved. Do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath for it is written vengeance is mine.

I will repay says the Lord. Therefore if your enemy is hungry feed him if he is thirsty give him a drink for in so doing you will keep coals of fire. On his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

So in this passage in this series of Exhortations wherein Paul is speaking to the Saints in Rome about how to live. Rather than be conformed to the world.

Live.

Transformed by the renewing of their Minds living in accordance unto Christ as the body of Christ there are going to be a lot of things that are not the norm when it comes to The world. The way that other system was working and so all of these different virtues and actions and ways of feeling and thinking and speaking and doing are modeled after Christ and they're not modeled after Antichrist.

That which is against Christ whatever is in the world. Lust of the flesh lust of the eyes the boastful pride of life. This is all opposite of that. Included in these exhortations are things that may seem to lend itself towards Pacifism.

Where and let's let's think about a definition for pacifism. What do we what do we mean when we say that. What do we think that the questioner means by that do we think?

It's more than just like non-aggression. I mean it typically I mean even if there is a you know Webster's dictionary definition of it people usually think of you know. Think of people who you. I'm a pacifist.

Even if you attack me, I am NOT going to retaliate. I don't engage in in war conscientious objector all that stuff. But it's also with even within personal relationships that if you get attacked I'm gonna do whatever I can to get out of that.

Because violence in and of itself is wrong. Violence begets more violence that kind of idea. That's I think that's the the modern usage of the term.

Yeah, well and I hear people claim an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. So let's go by that standard if someone does violence to me if I do violence back then there's no benefit there.

So I'm a pacifist right so you have the profile of who might be doing evil to Christians and Paul is addressing that there are those who persecute and so Paul says bless those who Persecute you who run you down and try to make your life Terrible and miserable and they're trying to put you into a hard place so you finally give up what you believe trying to put you out of existence one way or the other and We have this very short pithy statement in verse 17 repay no one evil for evil.

Okay, and then verse 18 if it is possible as much as depends on you live peaceably with all men. You can't keep other people from trying to be hostile to you and attacking you. But much as depends on you live peaceably with all men and then verse 19 is very strong.

Beloved do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath. So put it all together. It sounds like no Christian no follower of Jesus should ever act in a hostile Violent way against anyone even your enemies even those who want to do you harm so it doesn't seem to fit that you would pick up a rifle or pick up a weapon and Try to do harm to people trying to harm you based on what you've seen here but that's not exactly what is being said very particularly, this is not a instruction to affirm evil.

Having its right-of-way basically saying evil, you know. You are you should come straight through and I'm going to lay down help pave that road, right? That's not what's being said here. You're going to be interacting with those who are evil with those who persecute you in particular ways.

That are going to frustrate them and oppose them. Even feeding your hungry enemy and giving a drink to your thirsty enemy is heaping coals of fire on his head and verse 21 says do Not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good.

So what you're doing in and of your own Capacity in following Christ is you're trying to overcome evil for evil stop evil divert evil. You're not simply going to lay down. It's not a situation in which you're going to do nothing.

There's a lot that you are going to be doing and it's not going to be helpful.

Self-Defense, Vengeance, and the State's Role

Right when we're looking at the text We just read through that in verse 17 through 19 There seems to be a timing element to it and so in verse 17 It says repay no one evil for evil in 19 beloved Do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath for it is written vengeance is mine.

I will repay says the Lord. So this seems to be talking about people seeking Vengeance after the fact after evil has been done. What about before evil has been done or evil is being done in the moment?

Is there room for a godly person to stop that evil to cease it from happening without it being vengeance?

Well, it's kind of covered in as much as it depends upon you let be at peace with all men. So, you know, you're not making yourself a target. Yeah, you're not, you know be rude. You know as much as it depends on you, you know be cool.

But if those things do happen to you, you know, that's from from what we're seeing right now. You don't take your own Personal revenge, which is very prevalent in most ancient cultures. I spent time in Afghanistan in sub-saharan Africa in Iraq in Turkey and there are blood feuds that go back not just generations but go back centuries and somebody knew ran over somebody's goat and then They got a little bit more heated and they got into a fight and then somebody got killed.

This person got killed. We have the whole, you know, the Hatfields and McCoy's, you know, we have that in the in the u .s. But these blood feuds where it says vengeance and vengeance upon vengeance upon vengeance.

That is what? Christianity is saying no this has to stop and you see you saw that in the ancient world. You can read about it in the in the Old Testament. But you have at least this Christian principle and it does quote an Old Testament verse.

But it's Christian principle that vengeance is not yours to take. You have to leave room for the wrath of God who will take vengeance because if you take your own this cycle of bloodshed continues society itself degrades you have the state then coming in and taking Vengeance or it's God taking ventures but using the sword of the state to do so because that ends the cycle.

What do you guys think?

Well, I was just thinking to your own household of like you're talking about preventing destruction before it comes, right?

Because you say you've got an individual that breaks into your house does your stuff. What what do you do? You go out and get it. Or say he kills a family member. Do you go out and kill him? No, obviously not.

There are pathways you seek justice through the state. But someone's breaking into your house and actively trying to do evil. Is there any room to stop that?

Yes, lock the doors, right right lock your windows like these are and we take these as for granted. These are basic norms in the Western world that prevent people from doing these evils to you. This is this is step one, right.

Lock everything up bring the valuables into safes or inside be good at target practice. These steps are Preventative and not like a punitive thing. You're not taking out any sort of punishment on somebody who's done anything.

You're preventing these things from happening and we're talking about like law like bring sure bringing it to the government. The government has also made provision for you in places like the state of Oklahoma to defend your castle to defend your property and the people within it and I think when we're talking about something like this if What would we say to the government's?

Giving you the leeway to defend your family with lethal force. Does that go against these principles laid out in Scripture or is that something that the government has a Some sort of a permission from the Lord as his deacon to do so.

Is that within the realm of authority for government to actually.

Sanction violence, you know letters of mark, you know those kinds of things. Does the government have that authority? So I think the key part of this question is does this passage teach just the universality of Passivism.

Leave room for the wrath of God. That person comes into your house. Even if the government says you can kill him is this passage saying don't do that. Leave room for the wrath of God. Is it teaching? Passivism, I think.

I think we've clearly. You're not supposed to take your own personal revenge, right? But does that mean you can't or should not defend your family? Is that what this passage is teaching?

I think that that's the heart of the question in another thing too is at the beginning of the passage. He's talking about loving good things and being productive rather than destructive. One of the things that we as fathers have produced with our wives is a family and it's a good thing and I think he's talking about the things that you should be doing at the beginning of the passage from 9 till 16 and then he starts going to the negatives.

Don't do this. Don't do this do these things at the beginning of this passage. Don't do these things and this happens a lot in scripture where it's like it tells you what to do like the positives Of production and then the do-nots of don't destroy on the back end of it and it's it's kind of similar to the way that the table the law comes to us as well as the positives versus the negatives and.

Additionally, I think part of this question is trying to make sense of how the Bible fits together right, so when you read a passage like Romans 12 verses 9 through 22 or you read a passage like Matthew chapter 5 verses You know 36 through the end how are you supposed to square that with a bunch of other passages and How do you square that with how you have received?

Christian tradition that it's a good thing for a man to protect his family and home and property and to do so With weapons from within his own home on his own property. And why do we think that's a good thing and is the Bible telling us that it's not a good thing.

Should we live in houses that are unlocked should we live without front doors? Should we like when Jesus think about the way Jesus talks about the family and talks about domestic things and Agricultural things with with assumptions in place.

For instance, he talks about not laying up your treasure on earth. Why because thieves? Break in and Steal. Okay. No Jesus a solution to this is not To leave all your stuff outside right because by putting things and actually the Greek word is dig through because of the Dobie walls and There's only one door in these houses that they lived in and no but no thief would go through the front door they come in through the back wall and they would dig through to get to the storeroom and Steal whatever, you know stuff that you had that you didn't want anybody else to have.

So Jesus a solution to this is not don't have anything in your storeroom. His solution is not well, they're breaking in and stealing because obviously you're oppressing them and therefore What are you doing living in a house fool?

Right, that's not the solution when he gives the illustration about if you're gonna go plunder a strongman's possessions. What's the plan? How does this heist get pulled off? Step one find the strongman.

What is Jesus assuming there in the Illustration everybody knows the man's supposed to protect his possessions protect his house. That's just as it's just assumed. This is also you know seen in Jesus's illustration of being a good Shepherd that the good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep the good the good Shepherd defends his Sheep puts himself in the danger.

He's even the door, you know between the the fold and the outside and everything else. But what about the hireling the hireling doesn't care and he runs away. So you see the negative Versus the positive there are a lot of assumptions that are just built into the biblical worldview.

It's it's a good thing for a man to protect his home protect his family like a shepherd would protect his flock. So a man should protect his family. This is these are all basic assumptions that go all the way to the root of what it means for us to be made in The image of God and being stewards of the blessing of being man and woman Together in marriage having children part of being fruitful multiplying and filling the earth and so doing it is.

Having that that sanctity of the of the family and property to bring that about when God Brought about a new order of things with the first covenant that he made with Noah. What did he address? He addressed the issue of that widespread violence that in the name of Cain and Lamech was just being done everywhere.

And every man was going around grabbing whatever woman he wanted. It was a Marxist dream right women were common property to all right. This was the Enlightenment principle. Everybody grabbed whatever woman you want.

Everybody kill each other as long as you you're stronger than the next person. This is the dream of the Enlightenment. This is the whole idea. Well when God Changed all of that and judged the earth judged humanity for all their violent wicked ways.

He very clearly told Noah here's how it's going to be you get to eat the animals go hog wild. But if an animal sheds a man's blood that animal dies and if a man sheds man's blood By man that man's blood will be shed and every brother takes up that cause and so the the brethren of the one slain have to bring about that Appropriate end and again, we have these families that grow larger and larger into Nations nations with their just these very large ethnic groups that are nations and they're going to have to punish Evildoers and so when you get to Romans 12 and you're seeing how to follow Christ and it's Repay, no one evil for evil.

We're also told in the very same passage leave room for vengeance. It doesn't say call vengeance a bad thing. It's Make space for it carve out hope for it. Have a plan for it count on it have vengeance against evildoers those who have done you evil.

Make sure that vengeance against them is a part of your calculations. But let God do it in his way. What's the plan the plan is to read Romans 12 and then read Romans 13? The plan is leave room for wrath leave room for vengeance.

So pay your taxes.

Because your taxes fund the government, right?

So Romans 13 says pay your taxes and and the government will punish evildoers. That's the whole idea and of course, you know in our particular form of government We are supposed to exercise good citizenship and tell has Christians point the finger at the magistrates and say This is what an evildoer looks like and does and you should be punishing these evildoers and doers of righteousness should be praised.

Here's some examples that you could praise and inform. Inform the magistrate who is the deacon and the servant of God? What God has to say about what evil is and what righteousness is so they know who to punish.

And that now that doesn't answer the question about self-defense, right? Well because particularly in Luke.

Why is Jesus telling them to go out and buy self-defense weapons? Well, that's that's why I want to do next.

Yeah, when Jesus is giving them instructions, he he reminded them by in in Luke 22 verse 35. He said to them when I sent you out without money bag knapsack and sandals. Did you lack anything? So they said nothing they were going through the land of Israel a were followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

Oh that amazing rabbi who does miracles. He's great, you know, then he said to them. But now but now because everything's about to change he has a money bag. Let him take it and likewise a knapsack and he who has no sword.

Let him sell his garment and buy one like your bedtime knapsack. The thing you're gonna use is a pillow your extra cloak sell it. You need a sword. You're gonna need a sword. Why. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in me.

And he was numbered with the transgressors right from Isaiah for the things concerning me have an end. So they said Lord look there are two swords and he said to them it is enough. What's his point his point is I'm about to become an outlaw and all you all gonna be outlaws as well.

So the state the Sanhedrin is going to call you call me enemy number one and everybody who's with me. You're gonna be on the most wanted list and you guys are gonna be outlaws. So you are going to need to provide for your own self-defense because the state will no longer cover that right now.

We live in a world today. Thank God the state that we have is not so large and penetrating that their housing. Soldiers and police officers and sheriffs in our homes. That's a good thing. We don't want a state that is that domineering.

There are areas in our life where the state is just not going to be able To protect us and it's in the interest of a righteous state to have a citizenry that will defend themselves against evil doers.

And that would retard the doings of the wicked and we have a slight form of every man you know, especially in Oklahoma every man deputized to defend his own home his own property if Somebody's in your house not supposed to be there.

You can shoot him and you're done if someone's on your property. You can brandish a weapon and say get out of here and make my day and they're supposed to leave. That is in the interest of the state and it's very biblical.

It's a biblical worldview to say well the the state needs to punish evil doers. That's true. But the state can't get to every single place every single area and they want to retard The doing of evil and so the citizenry is there and they are a part of that home invaders.

Better watch out they could die very easily in the state of Oklahoma other states go hog Wild getting onto somebody's property and messing around not a good good idea in the state of Oklahoma other places.

They can do all they want in two different places. You see the rise of all manner of wickedness and crime and murder and violence and other places. You don't see as much just like before the flood you see you see there's a difference between before and after.

God has a way of Retarding evil and there's a way of taking vengeance and he is ordained the state as a as a magistrate to do that. That doesn't mean that we don't engage in self-defense, but that this is where we're trying to stop the evil from happening.

Now let's say that we're unsuccessful. We're unsuccessful in keeping evil from happening and we feel terrible about evil happening to our family to our property and so on. What do we do then?

That's the Romans 13 the Magistrate the civil government is God's servant. To punish evil is given the sword to exact.

So we don't go after them right like this person did me evil. So I'm gonna go after so right so we I have a neighbor we all have a neighbor who lives near our facility. And he was he was in the news a few years back.

And so this is not like a secret or anything is his name is file. He's a retired firefighter and file has all a large assortment of various weapons from various technology. He loves weapons and he would use be a knife sharpener.

Anyway, he's a very generous man. He loves to walk his dogs and truck come by one day and he's out there walking his walking his dogs enjoying his his walk and Somebody leans out the window says hey, man, we need some money for gas.

We're about to run out and so he reaches in his he gets his wallet out cuz he's gonna give them some gas money. Well, they grab his wallet in his wrist and he's grabbing his wall. He won't let go they take off in the truck.

There's three of them in the truck and he just starts getting dragged and they finally dropped them and they run over him. Run over his knee with the back end of the truck. Okay, evil doers. Yeah, I stole his property put him in horrible danger.

Somehow his leg did not you know disappear and And I saw this fire truck down here. I come down and check on him all these kinds of things and they had taken away in the hospital to the hospital ambulance.

So all this happened hits the news story. These people were three days out of jail. Three days out of jail and they were already robbing an old man. Evildoers, okay. So Philo goes and Visits them in prison.

He's a Gideon tries to get them the scriptures. He witnesses to them and then he goes and spends Thanksgiving with their families. Preaches the gospel to them all kinds of people start getting saved. So The government did what they were supposed to do arrest them put them in prison all sorts of you know.

You guys are evil and you're bad and then Philo was like, well now I'm free to overcome evil with good. Right. So in some some sense is we think about that kind of scenario.

That's exactly the kind of way that we should approach it as Christians. So you mentioned the Imago day earlier and this being Something that we're rooting this on when we're thinking about that. And the government's right role staying in its lane and also wanting individual citizens to Take up their duties to defend and prevent these things.

The principle of order of Morris or rightly ordered loves. Sometimes when I hear a pacifist like the quiz the quote was going back to the original question pacifism. Not defending one's property family self, whatever.

I'm hearing a misordering of loves or a misordering of duty when I when I hear some of the pacifist arguments. It's a natural affection to want to protect one's own life. To protect one's wife's life sons daughters and property.

How do you view the the ordered loves that we should have? And have reshaped by the gospel. How do you find that fitting in here specifically with the text and with the question that we had?

So the question is okay. So does this call for pacifism? Well again, this question is as Chris was identifying this is talking about what happens after you've been wronged. How are you to approach this given that if our affections are rightly ordered?

Okay, what then we ought to you know, obviously our love for God supremely and then we ought to love others. Rightly even as we steward what God has entrusted to us in righteousness. We're going to in our love for God supremely.

We are not going to take vengeance as our own because that belongs to God. Okay, but that's a different scenario than Trying to stop the evil from happening in the first place. Okay, and here's a way here's a way that we can think about it when John the Baptist was preaching at the Jordan River and he was calling for Fruits of repentance the fruits of repentance aren't repentance themselves.

Repentance is metanoia that turning with the mind. But the fruits of repentance are the way in which the John would see that these folks were ready for baptism. Okay, and When he was speaking to the to the soldiers these may have been straight up Roman legionnaires or they they may have been some of the the locals that were often brought in.

You know from from around the area, but they weren't, you know true Romans. But they would be still hired on for for security work and details and so on he told these soldiers he didn't say to them if you really want to repent and Get ready for the kingdom of God.

What you need to do is change your career. You know soldier can enter into the kingdom of heaven. He didn't say that he said stop taking bribes. Stop extorting people stop, you know, they'd be content with your wages.

Like that's how you'd be good soldier be content with your wages. All right, don't oppress people because just because you have a sword and you can force people to do things. Right. Well in the same sense when you look at Romans 13.

There's nothing there in Romans 13 or any other part of the New Testament. That says that Christians can't be in the service of the magistrate. Just be a good one. Just be a good one. What is that saying to us?

It's not instructions unto Pacifism its instructions in for righteousness be live in this way. So the soldiers don't have to stop being soldiers. The magistrate doesn't have to stop being a magistrate in order to be a Christian.

They don't have to repent from that. So also there's no sense in which and that's and that's rightly ordered that they should be doing that but a husband does not have to repent from being a husband and A father does not have to repent from being a father to be a good Christian.

He should protect his wife. Christ certainly protects his bride. We don't have to keep from protecting our children. God promises to protect his children. It is Christ like it is godly for us to protect our wives and our children.

We don't have to stop doing that in order to be good Christians. Now some people think that you have to they overread this text. They say okay because it says don't take vengeance. That means don't engage in any kind of self-defense.

That's not what it's saying. You're reading far more into it than is actually there so there's a whole.

Romans 12, Romans 13, and the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates

Cultural context behind This section. And you talked about just the use of the state and he went all the way back to Genesis.

Paul.

References benches is mine. I will repay and that's out of Deuteronomy 32 he's referencing the Old Testament law and then you said there's this context as cultural understanding of Private property. Love for your neighbor, but also protection of that property protection of those animals and and if those animals are Becoming a nuisance or goring other people then you're responsible for that and it's this whole idea of Not just individual rights, but do you know personal property?

But you know you have a responsibility to steward that and well. What's the even in the New Testament says Amanda doesn't care for his family is even worse than an unbeliever. So it's we have to keep those things in mind that this is not to be read in a vacuum.

I did want to be in keeping it the with the theme of keeping things in Context the beginning of chapter 12 and 1 through 8. It seems to be talking about Christians interacting with other Christians. You talk about the gifts of grace.

Starting in verse 5. So we though many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another having gifts that differ according to the grace given to Us. He's talking about this is how you kind of live with each other better.

You know, we were gifted when you know. The hand doesn't say why am I not an eye. The eye is better than the foot those kinds of things, you know. Do things with cheerfulness, you know, let love be genuine and this is where the the section actually starts the one under question here.

Let love be genuine or what is evil? I'll do one another in showing honor and then as we start moving through the chapter. Towards the end you get to Romans 13 and you're dealing with the pagan government.

So where does it stop? Dealing with Christian to Christian and you're dealing with society as a as a whole verse 14. Bless those who persecute you.

Yeah.

So verse 14 because the verse 13 distributed the need to the Saints given to hospitality and the verse 14 says bless those who persecute you blessed and do not curse and then you're gonna Interweave to go back to rejoice for those who rejoice sweep those who we be at the same mind toward one another and then it Kind of talks about your own heart, but then back to 17 repay no one evil for evil.

So all of a sudden you're cut you're back into it. So there's an interweaving but there's a turning of the corner towards these things and It you know, then comes to the you know, how are you going to how you're gonna interact with the government, right?

So your taxes, yeah, yeah pay your taxes, but you know, but again, you know, this was an awful horrible Wicked pagan government that at some point not so long after the letter to the Romans was written was in deep alliance with.

The.

Sanhedrin to completely wipe out Christians. Nero for 42 months was just trying to wipe out all the Saints all the Christians. So at that point this is not, you know. This is not something where it's like, you know.

Be sure when when Nero's boys come by to pick you up for a torch burning at his garden that you say well I I gotta go, you know, we have plenty of examples of Paul escaping through a basket Paul escaping at night.

You know Jesus breaking Peter out of jail and there's there's plenty of Christian resistance to be had here. But it does bring up the related question concerning pacifism. If pacifism is right, then you don't really ever protest or join any kind of.

Move against the government, which is not the example that the Apostles set.

So think about again for sense of both wisdom and prophecy. But if you go back and you look at the interactions between Saul and David and then David and Absalom Saul was the anointed. He was installed as king by God he was the legitimate King.

He was there to punish evildoers and to praise doers of righteousness and he did a fairly bad job.

Overall might give him a C probably out of the rest. The kings of Israel's what you're saying?

Well now you talk about them. Maybe he was a b-plus. We're grading on a curve if we were looking at David. He's a C right? Okay. But David. David comes in and we have a situation where it same it goes down to Bethlehem and anoints David as the new king while there's another King still writing.

So this is very interesting. I'm familiar. Yes, so this helps us typologically to think about the persistence of the Old Covenant while the New Covenant began the New Testament era. It helps us typologically to kind of sort through what happens when David is anointed but Saul still on the throne.

However, think about it in terms of its wisdom. We see that David refused to illegally strike. Unrighteously strike at Saul he resisted but he did not do something illegal. He did not kill Saul. He did not strike even when he had the chance he proved he was more righteous than Saul was and Saul himself said it and They'll finally God in his own time in his own way brought judgment upon Saul.

Saul died. He's out of the way. Then David starts his reign in a more official fashion over the tribe of Judah and then through the protracted civil war. Seven year war with Ishbosheth and Abner and all the rest of them.

Finally, then he becomes fully king over all the tribes of Israel. But then David becomes lax in his justice allows all kinds of unrighteousness to happen in his household. We have Bathsheba Uriah. We have Ammon raping Tamar.

But not being punished and so Absalom Tamar sister begins to turn the hearts of the men towards himself saying you're not getting justice. I'm a man. I'm all about justice and justice needs to be happening justice.