A New Reformation — Martyn-Lloyd Jones

The Acts of the Apostles and the Purpose of Preaching

The words to which I should like to call your attention this evening are to be found in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, in the second chapter, reading from verse 41 to the end of the chapter. Now, those who worship here regularly on Sunday nights will know that we've been looking at this second chapter of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles for a number of Sunday evenings and that we are doing so for a very definite and special reason.

We are concerned that the truth concerning the Christian church and her message should be known. Now, why are we doing that? Well, we are doing that, again, not for any academic reason. I can assure you that my object in doing this Sunday by Sunday is no academic one.

For every reason, it isn't an academic one. I have only one reason for doing this and that is that I am called of God to do it. And I am called of God, I believe, to do it, especially at this present time, not because one has an intellectual or theoretical or academic interest in these things, good though they are even from that standpoint, but rather for an intensely practical reason.

And the practical reason is, of course, because of the whole state of the world and of men at this present time. There's only one reason why any man should ever preach this gospel and that is that he has a concern, not only for his own soul, but for the souls of others.

And never, surely, has this been more urgent than it is at this present time. The reason I say for doing this is because of the whole state of this country and the whole state, for that matter, of the entire world.

Moral Declension and the Fall of Empires

I needn't wear you with reciting to you the sorry facts again, but surely anybody who has got eyes to see must be aware of what is happening round and about us. The moral declension, it's so obvious. Where is our knowledge of history?

Haven't you read about great empires going down in the past? Do you know anything about the decline and the fall of the great Roman Empire? Have you considered the causes of that decline and fall? Can't you see that the thing that stands out there most clearly is that those people, after their great achievements, began to become dissolute, began to live for pleasure.

And perhaps the greatest characteristic of all was that they began to import people from other countries to do their most menial tasks for them in order that they might not soil their hands and in order that they might be at liberty to enjoy their pleasures.

The writing is on the wall. And not only this country, I say, but the countries of the world. Can anybody be complacent with the present position? And yet, side by side with these alarming portents, you see the masses of the people giving themselves over to pleasure, refusing to think, objecting to think, to thinking, and above everything else, refusing even to consider this gospel, this message at all.

Now, this is the thing that concerns us. Why is it that the masses of the people are outside the Christian church and not even interested at all in the message of the Christian gospel and the Christian faith?

And the answer is, quite plainly, because they are ignorant of what it really is. They think they know what it is and they reject it. But the truth is that they don't know what it really is. And what I'm trying to do is to put before you the true picture, the true picture of the church, the true picture of the Christian message.

False Views of Christianity and Reactions Against the Church

Now, there is no doubt at all, it seems to me, that the great stumbling block that stands between men and women and listening to the Christian church and their messages, these false ideas, they look at the church and they say they don't want it.

And there is a sense in which, unfortunately, I am compelled in common honesty to say that I can fully understand their position. They look at the church, they see this institution before them, and they say, what's that got to do with it?

What's that got to do with life? How does that possibly help us in any way whatsoever? So, they turn away impatiently from the church and they seek other ideas. Now, what I'm trying to show you is that the thing against which they're reacting is not Christianity, it's not the church.

It's something which is almost a travesty of the church. Now, there is before us, of course, a very great and obvious notable example of the very thing to which I'm referring. Take the country of Russia.

Russia has gone over to atheistic communism. Why did she do that? Why did Russia become communistic? Or, if you like, another example, why did France become atheistic at the end of the 18th century and the early 19th century?

Why? And there's only one answer to the question. Russia went over to atheistic communism simply in a violent reaction against the Russian Orthodox Church. There's no question about this. This is a sure fact of history.

They said, that's Christianity. And then they said, if that is Christianity, we want nothing at all to do with it. They lived under a system of oppression and of tyranny. The poverty of the common people was indescribable.

The court was allied with the Russian Orthodox Church and the man in control was that fiend called Rasputin. And the common people said, if this is Christianity, we don't want it. So they turned right away from it.

But you see what they were doing? They were not rejecting Christianity. They were rejecting nothing but a sheer travesty of Christianity and of the Christian church. Now, it is because the same, I say, happened in the case of France at the time of the French Revolution.

And the point I'm making is this, that in a lesser degree, but for the same ultimate reason, men and women today are disinterested, not interested in the Christian message and in the Christian church.

Because, they say, if what we see is Christianity, well then we want nothing at all to do with it. Now, here it seems to me is the urgent question that is before us at this present time. And a great deal of attention and time are being given to this very matter.

There are other voices which are saying exactly the same thing as I've said up until this very moment. They say something's got to be done. The church has become ineffective. The church doesn't seem to be relevant anymore to the conditions and to the problems of men and women.

What's the matter? Now, here is the point of cleavage. As far as I've spoken, as I say, I'm saying almost exactly what is being said by certain notorious writers at the present time. What is sometimes referred to as the South Bank religion or theology and the teaching that comes from certain people in Cambridge.

You hear it on the television. The television, with the same instinct as the newspapers, always goes out for the novel and the curious and that which is somewhat revolutionary. These are the things that always get the publicity.

And therefore, this is the thing that is being heard by the masses of people in this country at the present time. Now, what do they say? Well, they start, as I say, by condemning things as they are. And there, I'm with them 100%.

But from that point, I entirely dissent from them, and this is why. What we need, according to these people, is what they call a new reformation. But the vital question is, what do you mean by reformation?

Reformation as a Return to the New Testament

I agree that you need reformation. But what is reformation? And all I'm trying to show in this series of sermons is that reformation doesn't mean scrapping the whole of the Bible and putting up your own ideas and theories.

It means the exact opposite. It means returning to the Bible. Now, if we're going to use the term reformation, let's be honest. There was a great reformation in the 16th century. But what was that reformation?

There have been other reformations. What were they? Well, every reformation that has ever happened in the life of the church and has led to new life and power and vigor in the church and a corresponding influence upon the lives of the people, every reformation has been a return to the New Testament.

Every one of them. And it is because I'm anxious to show that that is the only hope tonight, and in this present age, that I'm calling your attention to this whole subject. We mustn't scrap this and say, now we are living in the 20th century, and of course there's never been anybody like us before.

We've got the new learning. We are scientists. We are in the atomic age. And what we need, of course, is an entirely new message. All together, scrap all you've got. Forget all the past. It's all been wrong.

We must start anew. That, it seems to me, is the very voice of the devil. And the answer to that is that we must return to the New Testament. What we need is a reformation which is in line with all previous reformations.

What we need is a restitution, a restoration of the original and of the primitive pattern. And that, of course, is a learn to be found in the pages of the New Testament, and in particular here in this book of the Acts of the Apostle.

If you would like to know what Christianity is, listen, come with me. Let's go back to this book of the Acts of the Apostle. What is the Christian church? What is the message? Well, I say you can only answer that question by coming back to this record.

You see, this old world of ours, it's an old world, and it's got a long history. And if only modern people would read a little history, I think it would soon correct many of their foolish ideas and notions.

This idea that the problem of men is different today from what it's been in the past is, of all teachings, the most ludicrous that I'm aware of. Men different? No, men is no different at all. Men is still exactly what he's always been.

As I've just reminded you, the problem of the Roman Empire in its decadent days was nothing but the problem of Great Britain tonight, exactly the same. There's no difference. Of course, it's expressed perhaps in a slightly different manner.

They went about in chariots then. They go in aeroplanes now. Oh, that's nothing. The question is, what did they go about? And when you come to analyze that, you find exactly the same thing. They had their feasts, they were interested in diets, eating, drinking, dancing, sex, all, it's all there.

Even the perversions, they knew all about it. The world today is exactly what it was in the first century, in the days when our Lord came into it, and when the Apostle Paul and these other apostles were here.

It's exactly the same. Same decadence, same immorality, same vice, same hopelessness, same fear, everything the same. And the only thing that has ever done any good in this world has been this message.

The Gospel as the Power That Transforms Nations and Sinners

You see, we read in this book of the Acts of the Apostles that the members of the early church and the preachers particularly were referred to as these men who were turning the world upside down. There was nothing that made such an impact upon the Roman Empire as the Christian church.

They were very able people. The Greeks had their great philosophers, and remember, they'd all lived and had flourished and had died before the Lord Jesus Christ was ever born. The best teaching had already been given.

Not only that, the Romans, they were the experts in the art of government. There have never been better experts in the art of government, and particularly local government, than the Romans. We know that the legal system of practically every country in the world, apart from our own, is based upon Roman law.

And even in our case, it has its place. But they were famous for law, for order, for government. And they did everything they could to organize society and to improve the lot of men and women and to establish some kind of utopia.

Those ancients were very interested in utopia. But they failed completely. The only power that has ever dealt with the condition of the problem of men in sin has been this gospel. I was trying to tell you last Sunday night how, as the apostle puts it in his first epistle to the Corinthians in chapter 6, this is the only message that can come to men who are adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, and thieves and murderers.

There is no other power under heaven that can deal with such men and lift them up and wash them and cleanse them and make new men of them but this gospel. And it is the only thing that can do it tonight.

And that is why I say there is nothing more urgently important than that we should know what the church is and what her message is. And here it is. Look at it. Suddenly there appeared this thing, this phenomenon in the old world called the Christian church.

And here is the first account of it. They continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers. Here they are. This is it. This is the Christian church.

You see, it all comes out of the tremendous thing that happened on the day of Pentecost. These apostles who had been with Christ, you remember, were met together in prayer in a room and others with them.

Suddenly the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them. It wasn't anything they did. It wasn't their organizing. It wasn't that they decided months before to have a great campaign and set up numerous subcommittees and planning how to do it.

Not at all. In their utter helplessness and weakness they were just praying and waiting. And down came this tremendous power. And they began to speak with authority. Three thousand men were saved in that one sermon.

This is it. And they were added to the company. That's the church. And what do we know about the church? Well, I've been holding it before you. The first thing we are told is that these people continued steadfastly together.

They came together. What for? Well, we've already considered the first thing, the apostles' teaching. We've told you what it is. We've told you why they wanted it. Now look at this next thing, which is also important and vital for us.

Christian Fellowship Versus Institutional Religion

The fellowship. They continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and in the fellowship. And in breaking of bread and in prayer. Now, it's this fellowship that I want to talk about tonight. And I'm doing so because I want to give you a picture of what the Christian church is.

What a Christian society is. Because this is the only thing that has any hope to offer to the world tonight. You're reading your newspapers. Do you get any hope there? All right, be interested in politics.

Can you solve the moral problems there? You can solve the industrial ones perhaps, but you know, you may not even solve your industrial problems if you don't solve your moral problems. If everybody is going to go on working less and less and have more and more money for doing less and less, you won't even solve your industrial problem.

That's how Rome went down. They all wanted to spend their time in their baths. And of course, if you were very wealthy, you had a golden bath. And so it went, you see, all these steps and stages. It's the same tonight.

Must have more beer, must have more wine, more cigarettes, more cigars. You see, the quality and the brand is nothing. The rank is but the guinea stamp. The men's a men for all that. Quite so. But that's how the Roman Empire went down.

And that's how I say every empire has gone down. That's how this country will go down. There's only one way of arresting all this, and this is this gospel. I'm not preaching because I'm here as a kind of agent of the government.

I'm here, my friends, because I'm concerned about your individual soul. But I'm also showing you, at the same time, that this is not only true of the individual, it's true collectively. There is no hope apart from this.

Where there is no vision, the people perish. It is righteousness that exalteth a nation. You can't live on anything else. But now, unfortunately, you see, this false idea is current as to what the church is and what she's meant to be doing.

But here is the true picture. This fellowship. What is fellowship? I'm told about these people who have been living a life of sin and had rejected Christ and had said, away with him, crucify him, but who suddenly are convinced and convicted by the preaching of Peter, and 3 ,000 of them are added to the church, and here they are going day by day to this company, to this fellowship, to hear the teaching.

But what is fellowship? There's no word that is more abused at the present time, it seems to me, than this word, fellowship. It's a great word today. It's the great word in connection with what is called the ecumenical movement.

They, as I have been showing you, are not interested in the teaching, in the doctrine at all. They say doctrine divides, therefore don't talk about it, we don't need it, but what we need is fellowship.

What is fellowship? Well, there are some strange notions current with regard to what constitutes fellowship. Fellowship means, as I'm going to show you, a very deep unity. And there is all the difference in the world between true unity and a coalition.

That's one of the greatest fallacies of all, that when you get a coalition you've got unity, you haven't. The history of every coalition that's ever been politically proves that there was never any true unity.

It's a temporary coming together, that's not fellowship. You can persuade yourself it is, but it's all on the surface. Deep down there is disunity, there is division. But this is the tragedy today, that people say, oh, it doesn't matter what people believe as long as we all come together.

Roman Protestantism, oh, it doesn't matter, we're all one, let's all be together. Perhaps even all of the various religions of the world. Let's have a great world congress, let's amalgamate all religions.

And the world laughs at it, and I think for once the world is right. That's not Christianity, that's not fellowship, and that's not unity. But people's ideas as to what constitutes fellowship can be really quite pathetic.

Some people think of fellowship in purely social terms. Oh, there's been a great deal of this in the church, and I'm here to ridicule it, because it's got nothing to do with Christianity. People think that fellowship just means sometimes having a cup of tea together, or having some biscuits, or a bun and a cup of tea, but that's fellowship.

They use the term with respect to that. But my dear friends, that's not fellowship. Others I've known think of fellowship in these terms. In certain countries which I needn't mention, this happens almost invariably at the end of a service.

The minister says, no, you must all have fellowship with one another. So he then exhorts them and teaches them what to do. He tells them all to get up and to shake hands with the person sitting next to them on the right.

And they all shake hands. Marvellous fellowship. Those are the ideas of fellowship. A superficial friendliness, a niceness, a joviality. That's how this great word fellowship has become degraded. I remember a man once telling me, he was an evangelical preacher.

He said, you know, I find I have more fellowship. And he mentioned a certain man who's not an evangelical at all, but quite a notorious liberal. He said, you know, I find I have more fellowship with him than I do with many evangelicals.

Well, I said, it all depends upon what you mean by fellowship. I said, if you mean that he's a nicer man, a nicer fellow than many evangelicals, I agree with you. But that's not fellowship. That a man is pleasant and affable and kind doesn't mean you can have fellowship with him.

You can pass the time of day with him. There'll be no disputes and quarrels perhaps, but my dear friends, that isn't fellowship. What is this? Well, I say again, it isn't institutionalism. And this is the thing, it seems to me, that is keeping so many outside the Christian church at the present time.

They look at what they see and they see nothing but a great institution. A great organization. It's not only true of Roman Catholicism, but it's true of Protestantism in this country today. I'm simply asking you this question.

Look at the modern church, the modern Roman Catholic church, if you like, or the modern Protestant church in this country. Can you see it in the book of the Acts of the Apostles? Can you see anybody corresponding to the Pope?

Can you have fellowship with the Pope? Look at the ceremonial and the etiquette you have to go through before you can even see him. And look at people looking at him in the distance and going along and considering it an honor just to kiss a ring on his finger or something.

Is that fellowship? My friends, that's why people are outside the church. That's why they're not listening to Christianity. They look at that and they say they don't want it. Well, I'm here to say that I don't want it.

That's not Christianity. Here we have a fellowship, I say. It isn't a mere institution that all and sundry can use. Let me say it in the name of God. I'm getting rather tired of these statesmen and others who never darken the doors of a place of worship while they're alive, but who want Christian hymns at their funerals.

I protest in the name of God. They say that we are hypocrites. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy? What do they want Christian hymns for in their burials? Why don't they come and sing them when they're alive?

That's hypocrisy. And the church is foolish enough to allow herself to be used. But that's not New Testament Christianity. No, no, what you've got here is true fellowship. What does it mean? Well, I've turned up the word for you.

It means this. It means a deep association. It means a true communion. It means a close relationship of which the highest example is marriage. It's a word that is sometimes used to denote partnership in business.

It's not just meeting occasionally in a church building, just shaking hands at the end and going, well, that's not a church. There's no fellowship involved in that. It's never anything superficial. It is deep.

It's vital. It becomes the main thing in the life. It's as it was here. You see, it's more like a family. And when people become Christians, they become one. They have this community. They're in a family together.

They're united by certain bonds that are indissoluble. Now, our Lord himself put this very plainly on one occasion. He'd been speaking, and speaking particularly about the case of the rich young ruler.

And the rich young ruler went away, sorrowful, couldn't submit to our Lord's demand. And Jesus, looking upon them, saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God. For with God all things are possible.

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake and the gospel's.

But he shall receive a hundredfold now, in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecution, and in the world to come, eternal life. That's it. If you leave a human father or mother for my sake, says Christ, it's all right.

You'll have fathers and mothers hundredfold in this present life. You'll have a new family. This is what is meant by fellowship. And this is the only truth about the Christian church. I say again, isn't it time that we got back to this primitive pattern?

The Church’s Repeated Renewal Through History

Here is Christianity as it begins in the ancient world. This power, this church, this message that turns the world upside down. And this has been repeated. You see, the story of the church is a most extraordinary one.

I've often said from this pulpit that I know of nothing more instructive next to the Bible than church history. I know nothing more encouraging, nothing more exhilarating. What do you think the story of the church is?

Do you think that it's a story that it begins here in infancy and gradually goes on developing and up and up and up? That isn't it at all. The story of the church is a story of ups and downs. The church, because men and women forget the primitive pattern, becomes a mere institution and she becomes dead.

She may become very wealthy. She may become very powerful politically. The popes were tremendously powerful in the Middle Ages. But you know that's got nothing to do with the church. And how is there a Christian church at all tonight?

There's only one answer. It is because God in his mercy has looked down and has revived the church. And has made her come back to the primitive pattern. This is true reformation. Do you want to know what the church is?

Well, here it is. Look at these people. They meet together every day to listen to the apostles' doctrine, to have fellowship with them, to break bread with them, to pray with them. There it is. And this thing begins to spread and people are amazed.

There's a dynamic. There's a power. There's something living. And people say, what is this? I wish I could have it. That's Christianity. Then you remember the story, have you ever read the story of the church that used to meet in the catacombs in Rome?

They were so persecuted they couldn't meet anywhere else. But they met together in those burial places underground in what is called the catacombs. These little people, quite unimportant people. There were no great people amongst them except very exceptionally.

But they met together and there they engaged in this fellowship. And the power spread. And you know, this is the great story of the church. Oh, my dear friend, I have to ask you our last in the name of God.

Don't look at things as you see them today. Look back to this great history and then you'll see what a church is, what the church is. There it is in the catacombs. But even in those dark Middle Ages, when Rome in a pomp and power, Pope was a great prince, and he could manipulate kings and so on.

You say, that's the church. I say, no, it's not the church. That's the great heart. That's the devil's counterfeit. It's got nothing to do with Christianity. Where was the church? Well, the church was to be found amongst a very simple little people in the north of Italy, people known as the Waldensians.

They met together in one another's houses. Sometimes they were not even allowed to do that. They'd meet in caves, way up in the hills and in the mountains. But they met together the little groups. That's the church.

Or the followers of John Huss in what is now called Czechoslovakia. Same thing. The followers of John Wycliffe in this country. All this well before the Protestant Reformation. My friends, that's the church.

Not the great institution, but these little people believing the truth, knowing the Lord, having lives changed, holding on to the teaching, praying together. And then you come to the actual Protestant Reformation itself.

And immediately you find the same thing. They met together in these little companies exactly in the same way. Come along down the centuries, you get it in the Puritans. You get it in that wonderful story of the Scottish Covenanters.

Read these things, my friends, and you'll see what the church is, what Christianity is. Generally, almost, they would have to meet way up in the mountains somewhere. I remember once visiting a place called Communion Stones in the south of Scotland, not far from Dumfries.

One of the most thrilling places to visit, I think, I've ever known. You had to go off the main roads, up the secondary roads, and you came to a farm lane, and you landed in a farm yard. And then you had to walk up the side of a hill.

And then there was a little break in the hills, and you just went round the corner. And there you saw a kind of natural meeting place, almost a little amphitheater. And there were big stones. What does it mean?

Well, it meant this, that the Christian people in the 17th century used to meet together up there on Sunday afternoons, and they'd have a communion service. And a man or two would be posted in this break, this gap in the hills, to see if the soldiers, the British, the English soldiers, were coming to arrest them.

Who were they? Oh, they were little unknown people, but they've got the grace of God in their hearts. They knew this teaching. Their lives were transformed, and they were ready to meet their God. They were risking life and limb.

That's the church, not some grand institution. But men and women who are brought together in fellowship. It's the same with the early Methodists. Well, now, what I'm holding before you is this, that this is the picture of the church.

This is what is meant by fellowship. And according to the New Testament, one of the best tests we can ever apply to ourselves to know whether we are Christians or not, is just this test of fellowship.

The Apostle John puts it like this, in his first epistle, in the third chapter, in verse 14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. No, there it is. Would you like to know whether you're a Christian?

That's the most important thing you can ever know. A man can't live truly unless he's a Christian. He certainly can't die truly unless he's a Christian. How do you face death? How do you face eternity?

How do you face the possibilities of war? How do you live in this evil world? It can't be done, except the man's a Christian. How do you know whether you're a Christian? Here's the answer. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

What's he mean? Oh, you like this fellowship. See, the moment these 3 ,000 were converted, they joined the fellowship. And they continued steadfastly in the Apostle's teaching and in the fellowship. Day after day after day, nothing could keep them away.

Why? Oh, this was the one thing they wanted. It had become the biggest and the deepest things in their lives. It had become more important to them even than their sweetest earthly human ties. When a man becomes a Christian, he wants to meet with other Christians.

This is the proof of Christianity, that it changes a man. It gives him a new birth. He belongs to a new family. It's deeper than natural ties, than social ties, than national ties. Love the brethren. They're drawn together.

They can't keep apart from one another. If you want to know for certain whether you're a Christian at this moment in this congregation, I can give you the test. Would you sooner spend this evening with the humblest Christians in this country, rather than with the greatest in the land who are not Christians?

That's the test. It is as simple as that. It isn't ultimately a test of what you believe with your mind. We can believe things with our minds without their affecting our hearts and our wills. Here's the thorough test.

Love of the brethren. That you feel something about the humblest and the lowliest because they're Christian, which you never feel about the greatest and the most exalted if they're not Christian. And you prefer them, you desire to be with them, and to spend all your time with them?

That you become concerned about them? Did you notice this? And all that believed were together and had all things common, and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men as every man had need.

Some people think that that's a sort of primitive communism, but it isn't. It's a misunderstanding of what the text really says. What it means is this. Not that they all sold everything and put it into a common pool.

It wasn't that. What it does say in the original meaning is this. That they so loved one another that none of them was allowed to suffer. And if one of them was in a condition of penury, the other who had a superabundance was prepared to sell some of his possessions and goods in order to help his weaker brother.

In other words, though they still held on to their possessions, they said this. We are all prepared to live for one another as the need arises. That's what it means. And it is always a test of the Christian.

As a man is prepared to do something for a member of his own family who is in trouble, so the Christian is prepared to do that for another Christian who is his brother in Christ. There is a oneness. There is a unity.

And this is the test. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. What is it that makes this fellowship possible? Well, it seems to me that there are three main matters.

The New Birth and the Basis of Christian Fellowship

I'm just going to note them. What makes this possible, of course, is identity of nature. This is the result of the new birth. You don't argue about these things. You know them. The Apostle Paul, in his second epistle to the Corinthians, puts it like this.

He says, don't be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. Why? He says, well, what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? It's as simple as that. There can be no fellowship, no real community of interest between righteousness and unrighteousness.

It's impossible. Or listen, he goes on. What communion, the same word, hath light with darkness? It's impossible. You cannot mix light with darkness. What conquereth Christ with Belial, what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Or what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? None at all is the answer. For ye are the temple of the living God, as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now then, there is the first thing that makes fellowship. That we have the same nature within us. We are sharers of the same life. And the moment you detect it in another, you have fellowship with that person.

This is the most wonderful thing, I think, in many ways in the whole world. It's been my privilege as minister in this place for nearly 27 years to have so many experiences of this, particularly during the war.