October 12, 2017 Show with Gary DeMar on “Wars & Rumors of Wars”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

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at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Orns in your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

12th day of October 2017.

Well, it's been nine years since I've had the guest who I am interviewing

today.

It's been nine years since I've had Gary DeMar on the program Gary DeMar Who

received his Master of Divinity at Reformed Theological Seminary and who is founder and senior fellow

of American vision?

He is the author of countless essays news articles and more than 27 book titles.

Who has been featured by nearly every major news media outlet and has hosted the Gary DeMar show

History unwrapped and Gary DeMar's vantage point web show.

He is also a regular contributor to American vision org and today we are going to be discussing his

new book wars and rumors of wars and It is my honor and privilege

To introduce to my iron sharpens iron radio audience for the first time in nine years

Gary DeMar.

Hey Chris, how you doing?

It's great to have you on the program today Gary after nine years and the last interview that we had

on iron sharpens iron radio was when Sarah Palin was running for president

and the theme was should women ever lead our nation.

That was the theme of our program and you were.

You were supporting Sarah Palin in that Presidential race at that time.

This is before she became the vice presidential candidate.

For John McCain and I often wondered if you came to that conclusion that women could

lead our nation merely because your wife was standing Near you in the in the room where you're conducting the interview.

And.

In studio with us as somebody who is more excited than a child at a

carnival today it's my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor who is a

Enormous admirer of you Gary.

And This is the first time that Reverend Buzz Taylor my co -host has ever worn a tuxedo in the studio

Even though he's on radio and I can see you.

Well, I don't want to get too excited about this, but I read of course years ago I

read last day's madness and I listened to Cassettes if you remember those

of your Bosley and lectures and of course, I found yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I found you on Word mp3 .com.

So, yeah, I've been familiar with your work for many years.

And I want to let our listeners know our email address if they have any questions for Gary today.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

At CH r is a RN Z n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA and only remain anonymous.

If it's about a personal and private matter for for instance If you disagree with your own pastor on

eschatology or something like that.

We understand that you might want to remain anonymous and we will grant your wish.

But other than that, please at least give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

Well, you know Gary since it's been so long since I've had you on the program and you're not technically a first

-time guest I still would like you to give a summary of your personal testimony of

salvation.

Because I typically do that with first -time guests.

But since it's been nine years since you've been on the program and we have a whole slew of

new listeners Who are loyal to this program that are not familiar with the old show that I

conducted out of New York.

And I know that the the likelihood is that the vast majority of our listeners are totally

familiar with you.

But there may be some who are not.

I have listeners from all kinds of backgrounds that might not Necessarily know about

you or American vision.

I have Listeners that aren't even Christian.

I have Muslim listeners and and listeners from all types of backgrounds.

So if you could let us know something about the religious Atmosphere of your home while you were being

raised if any and how you providentially came to Christ as your

Lord God and Savior and also how you finally adopted a reformed

theology and even Post -millennial ism partial preterism and theonomy and Christian

Reconstruction for that matter.

Well, it's a two -hour show.

Okay, I was Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I was born

in Carlisle.

That's right in the service I was born in 1950 and I grew

up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in the suburbs of Pittsburgh.

I was raised in a Roman Catholic Italian home both my grandparents that the grandparents

were born in in Italy and School

up through the fifth grade eventually went to public school in the sixth grade.

I Was really interested in athletics spent most of my time doing that used to hold the Pennsylvania state

record in the shot put and wanted to coach at the college level when was on a track

and field scholarship to Western, Michigan University and Athletically, I'd you know the shot put you have to be

these days about six feet three and weigh about 260 pounds.

And I wasn't willing, you know to do that and I didn't have the height to do that as well, so I kind of lost

interest in the Athletic there was just no way I was going to be able to

accomplish what I wanted to accomplish Athletically and I was kind of you know

throughout college I didn't really have a Real indicator is what I ought.

I don't know if my life was falling apart by the time of my senior year but I was not headed down

the right road and Providentially I was Ran into an old high school

friend in December of 72 and

Pittsburgh near Pittsburgh caught up on things and he was in Ann Arbor, Michigan

and I was had a track meet in Ann Arbor and we decided to kind of hook up and Ran into him and

ran into another friend there providentially and we I missed my bus back to Kalamazoo where Western, Michigan

is and will sat down with me and You know presented the gospel to me actually presented the he

was talking about the late great planet Earth and how the world was going to come to an end and Jesus was coming

before this generation passed away and so forth.

I didn't know anything about that.

I didn't know anything about the Bible but I did I did hear the the gospel from him and

So I graduated from Western, Michigan University and Moved down to Fort Lauderdale, Florida

another providential another providential thing and ended up moving within a few blocks of

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.

Wow, and yeah, I had no idea who D. James Kennedy was and

The place that I rented.

And I didn't really know to work.

I didn't know where to go to church.

I agree, I had no

call for transportation and I was I was running a place and I heard

somebody outside presenting the gospel to my landlady and I just went out and introduced myself.

I said look I'm new in town.

I'm a brand -new Christian.

I didn't know where to go to church and she said well the best place to go in church in Fort Lauderdale

and so I went to Coral Ridge and got involved in a outreach

program called the greenhouse Which met every Tuesday and from there I was

encouraged to go to seminary.

So this was this was 1973 and so 19th by 1974 I

Was a student at reformed theological seminary in Jackson,

Mississippi getting a seminary degree and and it was there that I

took up the That and there of course was reformed theology was was the basis of the that's why I was

called reformed theological seminary and it was not a reformed school, it was a

theological education and D. James Kennedy was was reformed and

I learned a lot there within that year took a little bit of Greek while I was there and while I was in seminary

I I got re -engaged in the eschatological side of things because that was

that was 1974 and Hal Lindsey's book the late great plague the great late great planet Earth came out

1970.

Everybody was talking about eschatology in the 1970s.

Because Hal Lindsey had predicted that before that generation passed away from 1948 to 1988.

But the rapture would take place within that period of time.

And but as I began to read the Bible, especially the Gospel of Matthew, it just did not line up

With what I was reading in Scripture, especially in Matthew's Gospel when I finally got to Matthew

chapter 24.

There was you know, this generation will not pass away into all these these things take place.

And I was reading through the Matthew's Gospel in this Generation all it, you know seemed to refer to the

generation to whom Jesus was speaking and at that point I was stymied.

I didn't really know what to make of all this and Again providentially on my the

librarian of the seminary Was selling some of his books and one of the books he was selling was by

J. Marcellus Kick KIK.

And it was just on Matthew 24 and I picked it up and it was it was life

transforming 24 and by comparing Scripture

with Scripture Showed that the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 Mark 13

Luke 21 Applied to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking and that book was originally

published in 1948 it was later republished by Presbyterian Reform Publishing Company and

combined with Kik's commentary on

Revelation 20 Ecology of Victory in

the application and then with the dr.

Greg Albonson who was a professor there at the time I got in worldview ministries at

American Vision after I graduated from seminary in 1979 moved to the Atlanta

area and I was involved Tuts got involved with American Vision

in 1980 and have been with American Vision since.

1980 now you eventually became the president of American Vision.

Did you found American Vision or is that already in existing ministry?

No, it was already in existence.

It was started by a fellow named Steve Schiffman and he was involved Jewish Jewish Christian.

He I don't know if you know who Marshall Foster is but Marshall Marshall Foster has was involved

in the Schiffman

was too and he was doing these seminars around and happened to come to the school where I was teaching and he needed a writer and

a Researcher to help him with things because he was really wasn't that knowledge.

But he was just kind of a good front man for the organization.

So he hired me and eventually he left he left the ministry and I took over the ministry probably in the

probably in the mid Mid 1980s inside.

I've been president of American Vision and has since turned the president

Durham.

And I'm still on the board and still write for American Vision and do conferences and so forth, right?

Well, I my apologies for well, it's actually no reason to apologize because it's actually an elevation of your status.

I said you were the founder of American Vision, but at the at the beginning of the program.

But just I'm glad that you cleared that up just before we go on to the major theme that we have Wars and rumors of

wars.

I just wanted to have you Clarify a couple of things.

Prior to that like for instance going back to D. James Kennedy because there are people who asked me from

time to time where he was as catalogically, and I believe he was an

amillennialists, but I know that many if not, most theonomists really

valued his Ministry very much and I believe he also wrote the forward to a couple

of books by theonomists.

So, can you tell us where D. James Kennedy was on that issue?

Yeah, dr. Kennedy didn't talk much about Eschatology, I think there were a couple of sermons.

I haven't listened to everything that he that he did.

But I've heard he was he was an amillennialist and he and Jerry Newcomb Wrote up a book on

I think Jerry wrote the book on eschatology, but it was he said this was basically dr Kennedy's views and it was

it was all it was all millennial but the thing with dr Kennedy is he was deeply involved in Christian worldview

Ministry, dr. Kennedy applied the Bible to every area of life.

He used to hold conferences on on on worldview

issues.

He was involved in the Christian history.

That's where we kind of Worked together.

I wrote a I wrote a book for Coral Ridge ministries on America's Christian heritage.

He wrote the one of my God in government.

God in government books was an amillennialist.

He was he was not someone who saw doom and gloom that the

gospel was effective in every area of life.

And one of the things dr. Kennedy did was he

preached the gospel to everybody.

I remember going out to lunch with him one time and he immediately just engaged the Server and the presentation

of the gospel was remarkable

to see him to see him in action.

I don't know if he ever ran into anybody talked with anybody that he didn't present the gospel to them.

And then of course Evangelism explosion I was involved in that and that ministry down there through the

through the greenhouse.

We would go to the beach every Every Sunday, but first we go for some training at the greenhouse and then we would go into

threes.

With a trainer and then to two trainees.

I started out as a trainee and then eventually became a trainer and we would go to the beach and Engage people.

Question if you were to die die tonight.

Do you know if you would go to go to heaven and a lot of a lot of people say yes.

And some people say I don't know and the next question was if you were to die tonight.

You stood before God and God asked you.

Why should I let you into my heaven?

What would you say and that in that in that was an engagement into the gospel

and for years I used to get a letter from a woman named grace.

About you know about that on the kind of the anniversary of her new birth.

She would send me a little note note card while I was in seminary.

Just wishing me well and so forth and so on that she was growing in the faith.

So I really got started in everything that I'm doing.

From Coral Ridge and and I was well grounded early on a lot of guys.

You know, they get started and they get into some weird stuff.

III got grounded very very early and I'm very thankful that.

With dr. Kennedy and the Ministry of Coral Ridge and the greenhouse and of course Reform Theological Seminary.

There's you know, I was I was on the straight and narrow.

Right from the start.

Well, look Reverend Buzz Taylor.

I was gonna say for a for a non -millennialist.

I think D James Kennedy wrote a very post millennial book years ago.

I read what if Jesus had never been born where he was showing the impact that Christianity has already had over the

last 2 ,000 years and it was amazing.

Well, even.

Yeah, even Ian Murray's the Puritan hope is like a

handbook for post -millennialist but Ian Murray is a non -millennialist a.

Lot of people don't I think they call you Murray, you know, the the post millennial variety

at the banner of truth.

Which they are about three blocks from.

Yeah, two famous two famous entities, you know banner of truth and Gary DeMar, you know had their

had their base base of operations.

And let's not forget Jim Thorpe, that's right.

Hey, let's not forget Chris arms in here.

But the there's Banner of truth and I think he and Murray would be caught would be

considered a kind of a pietistic post -millennialist not so much a

worldview Reconstructionist type post -millennialist and I think there's there's

friends there were very little comes out of the banner of truth dealing with a cultural application of the gospel and

yet, of course.

It's very solid in their commentaries and other books and so forth.

But the apparent hope is a terrific book because it does in fact show a

Post -millennialism and the impact it's had on missions.

You know throughout the world that the missions generally was a post post millennial

Enterprise and you've seen the Gospels transformed, you know through the go

through the work of to bring change to you know to those to those nations and by the way when I met

dr. Murray in person when he preached at the.

Church where I Used to be a member.

Before moving to Pennsylvania Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York Dr. Murray told me

that he was a millennial that was that was back in the the 90s or the early 2000s, I believe.

Well, I think most of the post -millennial works that come out of banner of truth aren't of the

reconstructionist variety, right.

And.

If you could also before we go on to the specific topic of wars and rumors of wars

I think it might be helpful for you to give an abbreviated summary of.

Was that a redundancy an abbreviated summary?

If you could give a summary a summary of

Not only post -millennialism but partial preterism.

And you might you might as well.

Of course, I am saying a summary of theonomy and Christian Reconstruction because of the fact that there are

a lot of disagreements.

And there's a lot of confusion and there's a lot of misrepresentation going on in regard to all of those

topics and unfortunately The hyper preterists don't help matters

who have declared that Everything in the in the scriptures has been already fulfilled.

And there will be no future visible return of Christ.

There will be no future resurrection of the dead and that kind of a thing.

So if you could give us a summary of those highlighted views of yours.

Well, the different millennial positions are based upon Revelation chapter 20 and

the most popular view today is

Premillennialism, I guess it's cousin.

So there's kind of a there's

classical Pope Francis Schaeffer

premillennialist George Elton Ladd was a classical premillennial Charles Spurgeon and the Bonar

brothers.

Yeah, yeah, they would be considered classical premillennialist premillennialist and there's a long long history of

the classical premillennialism.

Essentially premillennialist believes that Jesus will return the return that you were talking about.

Jesus will return prior to the 1 ,000 year Indicator in

Revelation chapter 20.

That's why it's called premillennialism.

Jesus comes part of the Millennium and all

millennialist Does not take the 1 ,000 years literally.

Because the numbers in the book of Revelation themselves are all often Symbolic numbers that for example the number seven appears,

you know 50 or 60 times and it's obviously a symbolic number number 12 12 times

12 times a thousand hundred forty four thousand.

The number thousand is a symbolic number in the Bible when it's there's not a specific adjective

2 ,000 3 ,000 4 ,000.

God owns cattle on a thousand hills.

One day in the court of the Lord is better than a thousand anywhere else.

And so the all -millennialist takes the thousand years

Christ at the

dawn to an undisclosed time until till Jesus will return at the end of history.

So that thousand years there is symbolic of just a long period of time, but like the

premillennialist.

The the the all -millennialist believe

transformation to very pessimistic about what what is going to happen in the future?

Just like the premillennialist.

The dispensational premillennialist like the

premillennialist returned prior to the 1 ,000 years.

But they have this little bump in the road.

Called the the tribulation period which is a seven -year period which precedes that 1 ,000 years where

Jesus raptures his church prior to a seven to seven year period and That church is taken to heaven and

God's going to deal with Israel during that seven -year period.

Where there will be the rise of Antichrist the temple will be rebuilt to be animals sacrifices reinstituted in

two -thirds of the Jews living in Israel are going to be slaughtered and Then Jesus will return at the end of that seven -year

period and he will set up his millennial reign with the rebuilt temple another temple to be rebuilt and

Animal sacrifices and circumcisions.

The post -millennialist.

Like the all -millennialist most in most cases Sees the 1 ,000 years as symbolic of a

long period of time where the gospel will be successful throughout.

During this period of some time in the future.

The Jews will be called the nations around the world will be called and Jesus will return at the end of that

symbolic 1 ,000 year period and we don't really have any idea when that will take

place.

Their view of the future is a bit more optimistic they've did that the nation's will be called to

Christ that the nation's will be discipled and There will be transformation

around the world and it'll be noticeable.

It's not that everyone will be a Christian.

But that it will be with the gospel and the claims of Christ

that even the unbelievers would

bring about.

Yes, and just to interject as an optimistic Amillennialist there are those of us in that camp

that have a little more hope for cultural transformation than you.

Let us all Have that label of being totally pessimistic.

Well, there there are some of us that are more optimistic than that.

But and there are even different levels of optimism within post -millennialists.

Because I've interviewed typically when I do my Week -long And this will be

I'm gonna hopefully do one in December or January and I'd love to have you a part of it.

I have done a week -long Eschatology Examinations where I have a

representative from each of the major views Describe and defend their view.

Typically they are all Calvinists and Typically when I have done this In fact

every time I've done this I've had to have at least three different shows on post millennialism because of the

differences and and There is a theonomist Postmillennialist that does believe

before Christ returns that every single human that is alive on the earth will be saved.

Well, that's possible, I mean, I'm not certainly not gonna Shorten what the whole

post

-millennialism

phase of life will be if everybody

if everybody believes and of course, that's not You know beyond the realm

of possible and it was interesting for me to find when I had Martin Silbretti.

As a part of one of my eschatology weeks that he is a theonomist and a reconstructionist.

But he's not at all a preterist.

That was very surprising to me.

Yeah, you know, I don't understand that.

In fact one of the one of the problems with Dealing with post -millennialism and

on millennialism, although Jay Adams, for example is an all -millennialist.

But he's a he's a preterist on the book of Revelation and a preterist on other passages of Scripture.

I think one of the things that you always have to end up.

You know kind of dealing with when you deal with defending post -millennialism.

People will bring up something like Matthew chapter 24.

They and they say well see this can't be because of Matt, you know passages like Matthew 24 second

Thessalonians 2 and so forth.

Preterism solves solves that problem because it says look these things don't have anything.

This isn't describing something.

It's going to be in a distant future.

This is describing things leading up to the to the to the Jerusalem in AD 70

and Martin may maybe I don't know I haven't I haven't really talked him about it, but I'm not sure that

that rush was Much of a preterist.

Although he did write I think either the prep to an

eschatology of victory commentary on

Revelation and Daniel I do not believe.

Instantly, you know and in that regard there might be a there might have been some preterist

elements of that and since Martin You know follows rush on a lot of different things.

That may be the case and I know Martin Likes the work of BB

Warfield on Revelation chapter 20.

And I'm not sure Warfield was much of a preterist either.

I'm again I'm not a great student of Warfield and all of his works and he didn't really write

much in terms of commentaries of the Bible like say Jay

Alexander and Charles Hodge and and so forth.

So it's hard to tell some sometimes.

Where certain reformed guys were eschatologically?

All right, Reverend buzz Taylor.

You're gonna have to remember your question because we're going to a break right now and before we get into our book

your book Wars and Rumors of Wars.

If you could just clarify some things about preterism when we return from the break and then we'll have we will have.

Our discussion primarily focused on wars and rumors of wars and we'll also be taking audience questions.

We've already got a number of them coming in and we will get to as many of you as we possibly can

God -willing before the end of the second hour.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's ch r is a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and please only Remain

anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, don't go away god -willing.

We will be right back after these messages with Gary DeMar of American vision.

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The deadline to register is Monday, October 23rd.

So please try to get your your email in as soon as possible and now we are back

to our discussion with Gary DeMar who is senior fellow at American vision

and the author of 27 books and we are going to be discussing his newest book

Wars and rumors of wars.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and the Reverend Buzz Taylor had something he wanted to say before.

Yeah, well before we get too far away from the the whole optimism argument here I

just think it should go it shouldn't go without saying that I don't think any of us actually choose

our Eschatology because we want to be optimistic or we're not optimistic.

You know, I chose my post -millennialism because I was convinced from the scriptures that it was

true whether it's optimistic or not.

And I trust the same is true.

You know, I don't like to use the argument Against even the Amel and it's that they're negative and we're positive.

It just kind of washes out.

Anyway, it's like it's what we're convinced of from the scriptures.

Amen, and by the way, I am also even though I'm an amillennialist. I am a partial preterist and

Gary was a part of My coming to that conclusion of God using Gary and Ken Gentry's book

The Beast of Revelation Was something that really was an eye -opener for me as well.

And so I'm one of those oddballs That's amillennial and partial preterist, but

that takes me to a very important point Is that I am very opposed to hyper or

full preterism and it's been sad to see some of those folks that identify

themselves as either just preterists or realized eschatology

is another way of Describing that or another way they the adherence of

what I would call hyper preterism Describe it as realized eschatology and they also call it covenant

Eschatology, there's other labels that they have come up with but that has actually become

for a number of those folks their gospel that seems to be more important to them than anything and

The the the things that they disagree on amongst themselves Which sometimes involve very

serious and I think salvific matters seem to be far less important Than

their understanding that everything written in the scriptures has already been accomplished but if you could comment on that a bit

Gary and and perhaps differentiate what you are saying about Preterism from what some of

those men are saying.

Well, the reason I kind of got involved in the eschatology issue from the start because I started off just with basic You

know use in America's Christian my area

of deep interest is is apologetics.

And there were so that's the reason I've dealt with eschatology.

So much is because it has an impact on people's perspective regarding worldview issues.

I would go out and speak on worldview issues and I wrote a series of books called God and government and Invariably someone would

stand up and say wait, you know, why are we bothering with this because You know, we're living in the last days.

Jesus is coming soon.

This is the final generation.

Israel has become a nation again.

So I had to deal With the eschatology issue from an apologetic side.

I had to I had to defend, you know.

Why that particular argument was bad.

Because that's not what the Bible teaches.

The passages They were using to try to defend their their position were passages that

had nothing to do with the end of the world those passages were related to the events

1870 and that wasn't that was my position since since seminary since the you know,

nineteen nineteen seventies.

So I I didn't I didn't get involved in the eschatol eschatological side of things.

Because of the eschatology a God involved in it because it was an apologetic issue and then secondly, of

course it became the The integrity of the Bible.

I mean there were just certain passages in Scripture.

That people were using and of course going out

and saying well, here's evidence.

We're living in the last days Jesus is coming soon and so forth.

And so they were going out there and the unbelieving world was

Using that as a way to say the Bible doesn't offer any credibility.

Jesus said he was going to return before that generation passed away and he didn't

and.

You have written a book that is your your classic book on eschatology called last

days madness.

Quite a substantial work of very large work thorough work.

What was lacking in that book that you saw a need to bring about wars and

rumors of?

Wars.

Well, I've written I think eschatological issues as those as those

issues come up.

I feel the need to You know answer them because people ask me to there are

millions and millions of Dispensational and time advocates out there and that's a huge huge audience.

I really don't deal much with all millennialism, you know.

But I hate to say this but there just aren't as many of them and I really don't deal much with the

millennial issue.

Because until you can you deal with with the preterist issue.

You you really can't deal with them all with the millennial issue.

So I've written I wrote last days madness.

And I just found out over the years people are at different levels

and things and I Well, some people really bent

with you know, they would read a book like last days madness.

It was a hard book to give to somebody who was just starting out.

So so I thought what I would do is write something smaller.

So the first one first one after last days madness, I wrote is Jesus coming soon.

So it's a short exposition of Matthew 24.

And the reason I picked Matthew 24, it's because it's the one most most people are familiar with and so it's

a relatively short book.

It's it's easy reading.

It's got images in it and so forth.

You can get through it.

You get through it in a you know easily in a day.

Then I just felt that I needed to come up with something that was just on Matthew 24.

And I wanted to do a fresh treatment of it.

So I didn't I didn't actually look at what I wrote in last days mad as I wanted to do a fresh treatment of it.

And there were some issues.

Dealing after doing lots of debates.

Lots of exchanges on Facebook and the email.

You know critics of the Preterist might my particular Preterist position.

I thought I needed to incorporate all of those in this particular book to kind of be

this.

Deals with almost every single argument.

I've heard on The Olivet this course and I wanted to put it in in

in one place and then the very back of the book I put a verse -by -verse.

Short exposition of from Matthew 20 the portion from Matthew 23 all the way

through 24 Chapter 24 verse verse 34.

So I call those radio answers if someone were to ask you specifically and you had to give a very, you know

short answer.

I supply that in the back of the book.

So I've tried to cover all the different audience relevance regarding this particular

topic where people are where some people aren't.

You know getting people started so I don't have to you know last days Madison someone would say I don't want to read.

That's just too much for me.

I I'm not gonna I just not going to sit down and read all that.

So that's why I've written the kind of a different size books for different audiences and the different levels people

are in.

Their walk in their Christian walk and the reverend buzz.

Taylor has to give my commentary on last days madness.

I used to tell people all the time if you haven't read Chilton's Paradise Restored and Gary DeMar's last

days madness.

You haven't yet earned the right to discuss Bible prophecy.

Yeah.

Well, let's let's have you explain exactly why the title wars and rumors of

wars and why this is a view that you have that is

Possibly and actually probably quite different Than the majority of professing

evangelical Christianity.

Well, I wanted to pick a topic.

A.

Title for it where people who

hold a different position.

I didn't want to come up with a critical title.

I mean last days madness is kind of a critical.

Well over the years that's a great book.

And of course war is all you know right now.

Wars are always in the you know in the news.

I could have called it, you know earthquakes and famines, but I thought wars and rumors of wars was a better title.

Definitely is.

Yeah, and if you look at the cut, of course your your listeners can't do you

on the cover?

I've got you know.

Two soldiers one a modern soldier and one an ancient Roman soldier and they're essentially battling for this

position.

That position is okay.

Was this something that's for the distant future or is this something that was already in the past now?

Most people would not get that.

But I was.

That was the image that I that I picked for this.

So it's it's it's designed to engage people and if they go on Amazon

and they just you know Look for a book on wars and rumors of wars.

If they come across this book They'll be either pleasantly or infuriated

by the content of the book.

Yeah, and a lot of a lot of the disagreements that those who are

partial preterists have with those who have more of a futuristic

understanding of eschatology where.

None of the or very little of the the contents of the book of Revelation has

yet to occur.

Is a lot of it is really focused on what happened in 80 70 and at the temple in Jerusalem.

If you could explain that a.

Little bit.

Well, the the olive the Olivet this course in Matthew's gospel the Olivet this course.

Or at least the circumstances surrounding the Olivet this course begin in chapter 21 Jesus is

coming up to the Mount of Olives and so you really to get the full

impact of what Jesus is Going to say in Matthew chapter 24.

You've got to get the entire Context and so you read chapter 21

chapter, you know 22 chapter 23 and in chapter 23 Jesus lays down an

indictment against the religious leaders of the day and You know, he talks about you know

filling up filling up the the the wrath because of all of your sins you do

you just like your fathers and What you did to the prophets and so forth and so on and when you get to

the end of chapter 23 Jesus very clearly says your house is being

left to you desolate and the You don't know what you know

Specifically what he's what he's what he's talking about.

But you know verse 32 says fill up in the measure of the guilt of your father's you serpent you brood of

vipers.

How shall you escape hold?

I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes some of them.

You will kill and crucify Some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city and city

that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood on earth from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of

Zechariah the son of Barak I whom you murdered between the temple and the altar truly I say to you all

these things shall come upon this generation.

The audience relevance there is striking.

Jesus is talking about what's going to happen to them and he tells them in verse 36 truly I say to you this all

these things shall happen to this generation and Every time this generation is used in the Gospels.

It always refers to the generation to whom Jesus is speaking and.

Then It.

Verse 38.

He says behold your house is being left to you desolate for I say to you from now on you shall

not see me until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord and Jesus came out from the

temple.

So Jesus is saying this he's just what's going to happen to them and their generation.

He was in the temple when he said this.

So now we have the audience Relevance here and we have the context

and it's no wonder that when Jesus You know came out from the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to

point out the temple buildings to him.

They immediately understood what Jesus was saying.

The the house that he was saying was going to be left of them.

Desolate is the temple that was standing there that was still in the rebuilding process.

By by Herod by Herod the Great that would eventually be destroyed in AD70 when the

Romans came in and literally tore down the temple stone by stone.

Just answered and said to his disciples.

Do you not see all these things truly?

I say to you not one stone here will be left upon another which will not be torn down.

So that's the context here.

Jesus isn't describing something's going to take place in the distant future.

Jesus is describing what was going to take place to that, you know to their generation and in particular to

that Temple the temple that was standing right in front of them the temple that was

was going to be one of the most Magnificent edifices that the world had ever seen and within a

generation.

It would be destroyed.

I mean that was an astounding thing for Jesus to pronounce.

You know, amen.

It certainly was and now the the Jews.

In fact for centuries have had very shaky ground as to how they can claim they have an

atonement for their sin When they have no sacrifices and now are merely offering

up prayers with no shedding of blood.

It's really a Very poor ground to to

stock your your future in eternity, huh?

The.

Do you think that one of the reasons why?

The the more futurist views of eschatology are so

Captivating to the majority of Christians is because they really

enjoy the excitement of believing that they are a part of

Biblical prophecy what that they believe is unfolding right before their eyes and that they

Believe that they are a part of activities that were predicted long ago by

inerrant Prophets speaking through by the Holy Spirit through the scriptures.

Could that be one of the the real reasons why people get angry even when you tell that tell them that

these Certain of these things have been already fulfilled.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are That their theology is

repair theology the axle of their theology is is eschatological.

And if someone comes along and pokes a hole in in it.

There's too many other things attached to it that are affected.

And so there is there's a little bit of fear.

Look, if I'm wrong about this eschatological thing and all these other things that are kind of wrapped up in it I mean I have

to make a tremendous change in the way I View the Bible and I know that I understand that

that's a that's a hard thing.

That's a hard thing to even consider and I think you're right that there are you know.

There's a lot of people who view the Bible in a very provincial way.

The Bible is only speaking about us in our time and in fact in the United States.

It's like the Bible is only speaking to America, you know, there's there are people who are going through periods of tribulation.

Executions martyrdom around the world and we you know, we say well

this great tribulation they're saying Hey, look, look remember over here.

We're going through a very very big tribulation.

You guys want you think this rapture is going to get you out of it.

Well, how do you explain what's going on with us?

Right now and.

Then they take that and they say look I can't understand how we can live much longer with you

know, these earthquakes and Wars that are going to be taking place and there's volcanoes and

you know soup tsunamis and hurricanes.

And this has got to be the last days.

I mean, how could it not be the last days?

I mean, can't you just look out your window read your newspaper go on the Internet and see how bad things are.

And again, I think people have a short, you know short memory.

Just take just one example.

They Houston flood.

Well, you know there was a worse Houston flood in 1935 there was a worse hurricane in

1900 in Galveston, Texas where 8 ,000 people died

there was a terrible tsunami that took place in 1755 in Lisbon

there there and if you go in Japan There are there were actually stones that were that

were placed and says do not build Below these stones because a tsunami had hit in

that period long long long ago.

We have had earthquakes and famines and wars and rumors of wars throughout our

history.

What we're seeing today isn't anything new.

You know two world wars in the last century at the Korean War the Vietnam War.

We got we have undeclared wars taking place today.

We have of course a moral decline but look what's happening with that moral decline.

That moral decline is beginning to catch up with them.

You know, the Apostle Paul says and they will not make further folly.

They will not make.

They won't make any more progress for their folly will be obvious to all and as as

Unbelieving thought becomes more and more consistent with itself.

It begins to eat its own and that's what's happening.

Now this is why I believe that the Better understanding eschatology takes in what

should we Christians do when we see this collapse of culture taking place around us?

Instead of thinking about you're going to be raptured out, which I believe the Bible, you know does not teach.

We need to we need to follow Paul's instruction in 2nd Timothy chapter chapter 3

where he you know, he tells tells Timothy.

But you followed my teaching conduct purpose faith patience law of persecution perseverance

persecutions Suffering such as happened to me at Antioch at Iconium and at Lystra.

What persecutions I endured and out of them all the Lord delivered me and indeed all who desire to live godly in

Christ Jesus will be persecuted but evil men and imposters will proceed from bad to worse.

Deceiving and being deceived now listen to this.

You Timothy continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of knowing from whom you have learned them

and that from childhood you have known the Sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation

through faith which is in Christ Jesus all scriptures and is God breathed and Profitable for

teaching for reproof or correction for training and righteousness that the man of God may be adequate equipped for every

good work.

So instead of preoccupied being preoccupied with a rapture taking us out of the world.

We should be taking the Word of God and applying it to every area of life like our

ancestors did.

Great universities, you know, Harvard Yale and what is today, you know, Princeton almost every founding

University probably except for the University of Pennsylvania were founded by Christians.

Art invention, you know the the telegraph the Transatlantic

cable Music whatever you think of Christians were the ones

that were at the forefront even science.

And we've gotten away from that because we don't number one don't believe that this world really counts for much that Satan isn't.

Satan is the god of this world and and Things are supposed to get worse and worse and worse and Jesus is going to come back to

rapture us.

One of the reasons we're in the mess We're in is because Christians have backed off from applying the Word of God to every area of life.

Because they've been taught and been convinced of it they're living in the last generation.

We're sinking Titanic.

Why are we.

Why are we rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic when it's going down?

And we'll have you pick up right where you left off.

We're going to our midway break.

It's a bit longer than our normal breaks because we have to comply with the regulations of grace life.

Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires that our program be given to them in two

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But we are going to be back with Gary DeMar God willing after our messages from our sponsors.

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Now.

We are back with our conversation with Gary DeMar of American vision on his new book wars and rumors

of wars and if you'd like to join us on the air, and if you want to get online the email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and Before I take start taking our listener.

Our listener questions.

I just wanted to say one thing that I found interesting.

In fact, Reverend Buzz Taylor brought it up to me.

I believe he learned this from you that even Richter whom the Richter scale is

named after.

It does not or should I say he knows that earthquakes Are

not getting more frequent or more serious.

They actually have been less frequent than times past.

Could you can confirm that Gary?

Yeah, it's interesting that the passage says all it says is there will be earthquakes in various places.

It doesn't say there will be greater earthquakes or more frequent earthquakes.

It just says there will be earthquakes in various places.

And all you have to do is read the Gospels and know that there were earthquakes.

And you have to read the book of Acts to know that there were earthquakes.

And all you have to do is read the History from 80 30 and 80 70 to know that there were earthquakes.

I mean again, this is this is you know, nothing new.

About her about the about earthquakes, but you're right.

There's been there have been studies about the frequency and the intensity of earthquakes going back, you know, you know decades.

And also the one of the reasons why we hear so much about earthquakes today is because of our our

communication system.

I mean in the 19th century the way communication came was either By on horseback or

train and then finally with with the telegraph.

Yeah, yeah, you know today we have instant news.

From around the world you can who would ever have imagined.

You can turn on a computer and click on the news news cycle and read news from all over the world and

so we get it we get a funnel approach of news where.

Years ago you just you didn't there may have been an earthquake in Mexico or in China somewhere.

But rarely did anybody ever hear about it?

Okay, I'm gonna start taking some of our listener questions now.

We have a first -time questioner from Buffalo, New York.

Winnie and Winnie says I met you years ago at a conference in Buffalo as

I was new to this view.

I didn't understand much then but I do now and.

You autographed a copy of left last day's madness for me.

Has much changed since then.

On the prophecy scene is dispensationalism.

The dwindling.

That's a good question.

In fact, I just got back from a conference in Idaho and someone had asked the same question.

And Today you rarely do you find a scholarly defense of dispensationalism?

There's still you're

still writing the same kind of fantastic.

I have not seen

defense of this

camp.

Who were trying to move away from dispensationalism?

They came out with a number of books called progressive dispensationalism.

I didn't take the hard line between the Israel and church distinction and other things.

I.

Can just I know from the interviews I've done over the years.

Anytime I do a show just just like this person sent you up sent

this particular email and this message in.

When I first did this I was attacked everywhere.

And not too many years ago, I'd do a show on eschatology and everybody who called in Had

had abandoned their dispensationalism and had and had adopted some form of a preterism.

So I and and by the way, you'll find a lot of Prophecy books that come out today that they have to

deal with the preterist argument.

It is it is everywhere and once Ken Gentry's two -volume commentary on the book of Revelation comes

You know comes out in early next year.

It's been laid out.

I mean, it's going to be a very very difficult thing for anyone to ignore what he has written on on the book

of Revelation from a preterist perspective.

Well, thank you Winnie and guess what you are a winner of today's book

wars and rumors of wars by Gary Damar compliments of American vision and Also compliments of

our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com CV bbs

.com who are going to be mailing that out to you.

So you'll need to give us your full mailing address there in Buffalo.

So we can have a CV bbs .com ship that book out to you as soon as possible.

And by the way, not only are you getting this book, but since you are a first -time questioner You're also getting a

brand new New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB

so get that mailing address to us right away.

We have Sterling in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Bothered by a few references to pre -tribulationists being Self -focused and

disinterested in evangelism is this broad sweeping comment a reaction to the lack of evangelism in

general.

Or have you specific references that provide the foundation for this comment?

Perhaps I have misunderstood and he has another question, but I'll let you deal with that one first.

I.

Didn't say anything about there being a disinterest among Dispensationalists about evangelism.

I don't think.

I don't Tom.

I never brought up evangelism was what D. James Kennedy.

I think what he was possibly talking about.

Why are we even bothering rearranging the furniture on a sinking ship?

Perhaps that's what he means.

I'm not really sure.

Yeah, that wouldn't be evangelism, I think the dispensations have been very good at evangelism, I'll be cultural change I

believe yeah.

Yeah that yeah cultural change is what I'm talking about.

Okay once somebody is saved.

Now what?

I mean, I've got these quotations from Number of dispensationalists, you know.

How Lindsay said, you know, God didn't send me to clean up didn't clean.

Didn't send me to clean up the fishbowl.

He sent me to fish and.

The problem with that is if you don't clean up the fishbowl the fish die.

And so I've got I have a collection of those types of statements.

There's one fellow who said he encountered this young young lady at a conference.

He was doing and it's not that she was upset about this she says but this interest in helping the poor and She

says if we if we if we spend time helping the poor and maybe this this will curtail

Jesus's.

You know his soon coming.

So there have you know, look, I mean, I am I am NOT indicting all dispensationalist.

I'm just taking issue with the particular position in some of the effect that it has.

Tim LaHaye.

For example, I wrote a book called left behind separating fact from fiction.

Which was an exposition with a critique of the left -behind series, but you know, Tim LaHaye and I were

friends and I.

He was involved politically he got involved in the on the political side of

things his wife Beverly LaHaye did the Christian

women of America, or I can't remember the exact exact title of it all Women

of America.

Concerned women of America, which was you know, trying to get women involved in the political process.

So not all dispensationalists, you know have abandoned all this but there have been a lot of them.

Who have really you know, I don't know push for why are we bothering

with this this sort of thing?

I don't want to name any names in this regard, but I've been doing this a long time.

I've seen it happen.

Where a lot of dispensationalists have no no concern whatsoever to be involved

politically.

And yet hey, there are a lot of reformed people who have taken up this two -kingdom idea.

Which has been just as devastating for for this for the same, you know for the same result.

It is kind of interesting.

This actually proves the sovereignty of God that is awful as the late great planet Earth was.

I can't even tell you how many Reformed Christians I have met who are not at all Dispensationalist

or pre tribulation list that it came to Christ through that book.

It is amazing.

It came down it came out at the you know, right time people were questioning me after the 60s and so when people You know

were questioning and for me it got me interested in reading the Bible.

It's just that when I read the Bible, I couldn't reconcile what was in the late great planet Earth with what the Bible actually said.

And.

Sterling's second question is I prefer the pre -wrath rapture position and I certainly do not.

Any need.

I do not do any navel gazing While I await Christ's return and evangelize in

many arenas Notably our business who presents the gospel even in the

retail world.

Gasp.

What a horror.

And he's saying it sarcastically.

He has a little face with a wink on it.

Good show.

I appreciate the work each are doing so.

That wasn't really a question.

That was a comment.

Do you care to say?

Yeah, the.

There are five rapture positions Pre -trib mid -trib post -trib partial and

the latest one is the pre -wrath.

They all depend on separating the 69th 70th week from

the 69th week.

And.

Every pre tribulation list will admit that there isn't a single verse in the New Testament that says that the church is going to be

raptured.

Before tribulation period there's no verse.

It says in the middle of a tribulation period.

There's no verse.

It says right before the wrath of God is poured out.

There's no this this whole idea of a a Rapture where the church is taking to

heaven the millennial period just is not taught in Scripture.

And I have a little book that I've written on the the real truth about the rapture.

Which deals with this and puts us in perspective for people what the church is.

What the church is always taught is that Sometime in the future and what is described as a

what I call a consummating coming of Christ Jesus will return at some time at the end of history.

All the rapture positions put a different, you know coming in there Prior

to that has given us this so -called rapture position and the Bible just

does not teach any of the.

The rapture positions, um, you know, it's just it's just you can't make it you just can't make a case for it.

I've looked at the pre -wrapped position.

I've looked at all of them.

I've dealt with all of them.

It's very very simple.

You know the people use in order to make that case about the wrath of God and so

forth.

This is all related to the first century in the first in that generation before leading

up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 80 70 now when.

Many Postmillennialists and amillennialists refer to the final day

when the there is a resurrection of the dead and Christ's

true Followers will be caught up in the air with him and they refer to that as the rapture.

Do you think that they should not be referring to that as the rapture?

No, I don't think they should be referring to that as the rapture because the rapture thing is.

This is why my people say you don't believe in a rapture and the first question I ask is what do you mean?

By the rapture.

And I find a lot of people what you're both most people don't.

They really can't articulate what I just outlined.

You know, what is this rapture?

What is it?

What someone said what's a pre -wrapped happen.

Most people most Christians don't.

They do kind of equate the rapture with?

What has traditionally been called that the general resurrection of the second coming.

They are not the same thing.

Rapture is something completely different and I believe is completely fabricated.

Even though the word doesn't it mean caught up and if you're talking about those being caught up in the air.

Wouldn't that be applicable?

Well, that's what that's that's first Thessalonians 4 and the dispensationalists and all the rapture positions.

They see that as something distinct from the second coming.

The dispensationalists certainly do they see the coming?

So first Thessalonians 4 13 through 18 that particular passage for them is the pre -tribulational

rapture.

The church has taken off the earth so God can deal with Israel again.

And but we we would say that, you know.

Most traditional are millennialists and post -millennials will say no that is that is the general resurrection at the

end of right, right?

Well, thank you sterling and you have won a free copy of wars and rumors of wars.

Make sure you get us your full mailing address and let us know if you change your eschatological position.

If you read Gary's book, we would love to hear an update from you.

We have Joey in Clifton New Jersey.

Hi Gary.

In principle.

Does the amillennial view need to be seen as Contradictory to the partial preterist view.

I see strong arguments for both and unless I'm missing something I do not see anything that in principle precludes them

from both being true.

That's basically where I am.

I believe that they're both true.

In other words can we apply a partial preterist view to Matthew 24 acknowledging that Christ came in

judgment in 80 70 and Yet an amillennial Interpretation to Revelation 20 this

still holds to the future return of Christ with the Church Age viewed symbolically as the

thousand years.

That's a good question.

We have to keep in mind that that a preterist and as

a millennial position.

You can have.

Okay.

There's some preterist premillennialists.

Jay Barton Payne was a Pre -millennialist and yet he was a preterist

on dating the book of Revelation.

Wow.

There's there's Jay Adams.

Is it was.

I guess he's still alive.

Yes, I think.

Jay Adams is a preterist when it comes to dating the book of Revelation, but he's an amillennialist when it comes to the

millennial position.

So preterism in and of itself It deals specifically with passages of

You know related that people relate to the end times.

It doesn't necessarily deal with the millennial position at all.

So you will find all millennialists who are preterist.

You will find some Premillennialists probably not that many who are preterist on certain passages, and you

will find a lot of Postmillennials who aren't necessarily you know preterist you had mentioned Martin Selbretty.

So You need to be careful not to mix the two.

They are not equated.

Preterism and millennial perspectives are not are not dealing with the same thing.

Well, thank you, Joey.

You've also won a copy of Wars and Rumors of Wars.

Please make sure you get us your mailing address in Clifton, New Jersey.

We have Daniel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

With all the rich history of the reform faith. How did the church get all entangled with

dispensationalism and its bizarre?

Prophecy.

Oh, wow.

Now we're doing the realm of psychology.

You're the 19th century just 19th century cultism

You know came on the scene.

You had the Jehovah's Witnesses, which was a eschatological cult.

You had the Seventh -day Adventist wasn't the middle of the Millerites.

But in the 19th century you had the Mormons which was an eschatological cult as well.

And you know before you know before that Postmillennialism was was was vibrant and also if you

look at all these older commentaries, especially on Matthew 24 You will find that most of those were preterist on that 224

III don't know I'd have to think about it in a little more more detail.

I I guess probably because let me give you me.

Let me give you something that's Analogous and maybe you understand if it if you ask me

to come in and talk about investments and I talked to you about a stock

I purchased that I made a million dollars on and I spent an hour talking to you about how I made a million dollars.

On that stock you would get a little antsy and someone near the end would say hey.

Can you tell me how I can make a million dollars on a stock and I just think that there is much

more excitement.

When somebody gets up and says I'm gonna tell you what the future holds for you I'm gonna tell you who

the Antichrist is.

I pinpointed him Oswald J. Smith did this in 1926?

He said it was Mussolini and then Mussolini looked like the Antichrist then it was Hitler then of course

Gorbachev, I mean even some said Ronald Reagan because Ronald Wilson Reagan was 666 the letters in his

name.

I just think that there is a great there's just something about people wanting to know what the future holds and

somebody with you know Who's articulate and enthusiastic and can you go through the Bible and point

things out and say look?

I'm going to outline for you What's going to happen and then not only that but I'm going to tell you that you're going to be able to avoid this

because Jesus is going to return before any of this stuff happens and take you out.

I just think it's exciting I just anytime someone can come in and tell you what the future holds.

Think I just think that this came at the you know at the right time.

And we are going to our final break.

It's going to be brief.

And the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

I believe you have a question but hold on to it until we come back.

If anybody would like to join us now is the time because we are rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is the last 25 minutes of our interview today with Gary DeMar.

We are talking about his book wars and rumors of wars.

If you'd like to join us on the air and now is the time to get us a question immediately at Chris Arnson at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And we have David in Ada, Ohio.

David says my question has to do with the dispensational concept of the Age of Grace.

I was talking to a pastor and I said There is no difference between a Jew and a Gentile and he said I

agree in this Age of Grace.

There is no difference between a Jew and Gentile.

I then asked him about the Old Testament Jew and he said that is another matter.

Could you explain what he means and how to deal with someone that responds in like manner.

Does Ephesians chapter 2? 12 through 14.

Remember that you were at the time separate from Christ excluded from the Commonwealth of Israel and

strangers to the covenants of promise.

Having no hope and without God in the world.

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off.

Have been brought near by the blood of Christ for he himself is our peace.

Made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing walls.

Teach that all believers Old Testament Israel and the Gentiles from all ages are in the same and are the

same in Christ now called the church wasn't Abraham a Gentile.

When he was saved.

Wow that feel.

But let me just try to within

dispensation people.

Israel and he has his heavenly people.

The church it kind of Plan B when supposedly the Jews

rejected Jesus as the Messiah and then Jesus inaugurated God.

Inaugurated the so -called church age that we're now living in the church age.

And God isn't dealing with Israel at this moment.

The prophecy clock has been postponed has been stopped and it won't start back up again until

the rapture of the church.

Which then starts off Daniel's 70th week.

The last seven years of the 70 weeks of years.

Prophecy.

I think that's one of the most Dangerous doctrines that has ever ever been

developed.

If you look at the book of Acts on Pentecost Acts 2 5 it

says there were Jews living in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven.

Israel did not reject Jesus as the Messiah.

Some did many did not.

The first the first believers were in fact Jews.

They embraced Jesus as the promised Messiah.

This idea that the church is a new entity is just bogus of the Greek word

assembly or Congregation.

In fact, if you look at the King James Translation in Acts chapter 7 it talks about the

ecclesia that was in the wilderness.

There's only one people of God the first to the Jew.

First the first believers in Jesus were.

Which fulfilled the promises that were made to Israel were Jews.

Gentiles.

The nations were grafted into an already existing Jewish ecclesia.

And it's interesting that William Tyndale when he translated the Bible into English when he came across the Greek word

ecclesia.

He translated it as congregation or assembly.

The church is not a new thing.

What we've seen in the New Testament is fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.

Remnant was to be

chapter 5 made up exclusively of Jews.

The church in Acts chapter 8 made up exclusively of Jews.

Gentiles grafted in there aren't two peoples of God.

Well, thanks.

You've received a free copy yourself of wars and rumors of wars by Gary DeMar.

Please make sure we get your full mailing address in Ada, Ohio.

We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

In your opinion what has been the most harmful effect Dispensationalism has led on

biblical Christianity and how can we best dialogue with proponents of it?

I?

Think the most harmful effect has has been just the way You you know, you end up trying to

interpret the Bible.

Mean near doesn't mean near shortly doesn't mean shortly this generation mean ends up being this race or

this type of.

Of.

Generation.

You know the interpretive system that claims to

interpret the Bible.

Literally it is amazing how much they don't interpret.

Literally the basic premise of Matthew chapter 24 is that

particular temple?

They are no other temple.

This generation always means the generation of Jesus speaking and.

To me it just I'll give you a good example of what happened with this.

Doug Wilson and Christopher Hitchens debated The existence of God.

This was a number of years ago.

You can watch it in a video called collision.

They were at Westminster Theological Seminary and Christopher Hitchens brought up

Matthew 24.

This generation will not pass away into all these things Doug Wilson in less

than a minute debate at that particular point because

Doug Wilson said Jesus was speaking to that particular generation.

That's what this generation means.

The the language is found in the Old Testament About judgment and so forth.

And Christopher Hitchens didn't have an example.

He didn't have a comeback to it.

And.

Dispensations would have a very difficult time trying to Make that verse of

Bart Ehrman who's been a critic of Christianity one of the reasons he would he left the Christian faith was reading stuff like

Hal Lindsey and and Tim LaHaye.

Because of the way they just try to manipulate the New Testament in order to fit their particular

eschatological position.

Well, thank you very much.

And you've also won a free copy of wars and rumors of wars.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address so we can get that free copy out to you.

That's a Gordy and Mechanics Bergen.

By the way, why don't you just go to CVB BS comm?

And pick it up tomorrow because I'll actually yeah tomorrow's Friday because you lived about 10 minutes away

I'm assuming since you're in Mechanics Bergen.

We have Osanachi in Lagos Nigeria a great topic today.

Would you please as your guest?

Would you please as your guest?

Ask.

I'm assuming his what he meant.

Which of the three eschatological positions Amil pre -millennial and post -millennial he thinks is more in line.

Well, obviously we know it's post -colonialism.

I don't think that we need to have you answer any further because you believe it's Post -millennialism is more in line with New Testament

teaching.

Well, thank you.

Anyway, Oh Sinatra.

Go ahead.

Just to do a little bit of justice to that that could that question perhaps Gary you could explain a

little bit about the difference between Millennialism and post -millennialism because that would be a lot of the major question there

besides the optimism issue, but What would you say is the major difference between the two?

Wow, I don't even think there is one other few to remove the optimism.

What is the difference?

There is really none.

If a person is a preterist and And you know, you read

Matthew 24 and read my book wars and rumors of wars and you say I agree with everything Gary says.

But I'm still an all -millennialist I'm not gonna have much of a you know a problem with it.

Because but what happened ends up happening with a lot of the prop of the all -millennialists who aren't preterist

they they oftentimes will try to make a case for the lack of

Impact that the gospel worldview application will take place based upon passages Which I

believe refer to the instruction of Jerusalem in 80 70.

That's why I don't deal much with a millennial issue until I've kind of cleared the deck on The

preterist issue because people will say well, you know, what about the man of lawlessness and second, you know second Thessalonians 2.

How do you deal with that?

Well, how does that fit your post -millennialism?

So I have to go through an exposition on second Thessalonians 2 or someone will say

Ezekiel 38 and 39.

It's mostly pre -millennialist and Ezekiel 38 and 39.

So I've got to give my interpretation of that.

So I think I think that's why I spent so much time on the preterist argument because once you deal with

Preterism a lot of the other arguments related to the millennial issue are Satisfied and then you have

to get specific look specific as to what are the differences?

What what is the basis of millennial position?

What are they looking?

What is the future for the gospel and worldview Christianity and how do you get there?

And that's a debate that you know, I leave that to Ken Gentry, you know.

Everybody has their specialty and that's Ken's and this is kind of mine.

Don't you and Ken disagree in some significant way about Matthew 24.

Yeah, he makes the division like Marcellus kick did in Matthew 24 where the division between

verses 34 and 35 the new heavens and new earth.

I held that position for a while, but after you know further study and

17 I I just said no, I think Jesus is describing

The events of the destruction of Jerusalem beyond verse 34.

I deal with that in my book last days madness.

I also deal with it in another book that I did when I have a chart showing

Luke 17 and you can you can see where some of the events in Luke 17 that appear after

verse and those who appear in

Matthew 24 after.

Referred to later.

Time for me to go through all that.

So Ken and I disagree there.

There may be a couple of other places where we disagree but.

What you just mentioned about the in Luke Isn't that kind of the proof

that the disciples weren't asking three separate questions because it's all mixed up.

You don't know people say well, you know, the disciples were asking him What will be the sign of your you know, the destruction of

Jerusalem.

And then they go escalate eschatological.

You know start asking about the end of the world, you know, they'll say it's three separate questions.

Yeah, and I think on the the course it's the end of the age rather than the end of the world.

Yeah, and there are passages which talk about the ends.

Ends of the ages, you know have come have come upon us.

And there's a single article In the Greek that combines the last two of

those three.

And I don't the end of the age last days and so forth.

Again, I believe that those are referring to the events of that particular generation because what we

have is a transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant and what was coming to an end was the end of the Old

Covenant age and the New Covenant age coming in and the I think the book that really Describes that in the greatest

detail is the book of Hebrews.

See this great trick.

The transition is the transition has taken place with the destruction of the temple.

It is finalized.

Jesus is now the temple.

Jesus is now the high priest.

Jesus is the Lamb of God.

It takes away the sins of the world.

You don't need an outward expression of that.

Jesus has in fact fulfilled all of those promises he is the fulfillment of all those types in the Old Testament and

That and one thing just popped it in my head.

It is amazing how some people leap from.

A.

Post -millennialist partial preterist into full or hyper preterism because

in my opinion That's jumping from the the highest of optimism until the end into the

darkest of pessimism.

Because they believe this world as it is is going to continue Forever.

How depressing is that?

Yeah.

One of the biggest things with these full preterists.

It's like, okay.

So what at what is there after AD 70 and I haven't I haven't seen anybody.

You know outline that for me.

Okay.

So now what do we do?

Which in fact the dispensationists always ask okay, so so what do we do now, that's always the question and

and but yeah, there are these full preterists out there and they haven't laid out a Christian worldview and again, one of

the reasons I got into this was because there was this lack of Cultural application to

to to God's Word and then these full preterists come along and they they don't have any application beyond that.

At least I haven't seen any of it.

And but you know.

And it's like you like Chris as you had mentioned there are I think I counted I don't know 12 different

full preterist positions out there.

Right.

Some of them don't even believe that the church exists anymore.

Marriage, you know marriage.

And and so forth.

It's a bit bizarre.

There's some who are what you know less crazy about these things.

I've got a very good friend.

I went to seminary with who calls himself a consistent preterist consistent preterist and

that's his main objection to these full preterists has been their lack of the kingdom

the application of you know.

The operation of the kingdom now in this world at this particular period of time and and what we do in terms of

this kingdom.

He's been very very very critical of distinctions in these types of things.

We have Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas.

Enjoying today's program very much like brother buzz.

We're great fans of Gary DeMar and I appreciate his work very much.

So thankful for his wonderful ministry on iron sharpens iron radio and We would like

to know who rush is that Gary DeMar was talking about.

Obviously I knew that I should have had you clarify that the moment you said it.

It's obviously John Russo's rush to me not Rush Limbaugh.

Yeah Yeah.

Russia the

American system showing the

cultural application of the Bible.

I wrote two works on eschatology.

One on Daniel and they don't take it necessarily a preterist

perspective.

It's more of an idealist approach.

That's one position.

We haven't talked about the idealist approach.

Which the book of Revelation is more about principles not necessarily.

Take on the book

all these ideals that are applicable has

been fulfilled does not necessarily mean it.

It still doesn't have application today yet.

Three, you know 300 or so prophecies about the first coming of Christ and yet we wouldn't say that even though that they're

fulfilled.

But that doesn't have any application for us today.

So Idealism is another perspective and I think rush would be in the idealist

Perspective.

Martin celebrating knows Russia's position a whole lot better than I do.

Well, whatever Russia's position is now.

It's the perfect one.

He's in glory for eternity buzz.

I gotta talk faster.

I forget what it was.

Yeah, it slipped my mind.

All right.

Well, thank you Linda from Hilltop Lakes, Texas.

You have won the final copy I believe of the books that we are giving away Wars and rumors of wars

by Gary DeMar and Please give us your full mailing address so we can make sure we have Cumberland Valley Bible

Book Service ship that out to you.

In fact, yeah rush Dooney was quite an interesting brother in Christ, he was actually a client of

mine in the 1990s because He was a part of a program that I had

called the voice of Sovereign Grace.

There was there was a different host of that every night of the week Monday through Friday and

John Russo's John rush Dooney was the Friday night host of the voice of Sovereign

Grace and So he and I remember that every single night.

I thought maybe not every single time.

Nearly every single time.

I sent him a book that I liked after reading it he wrote a positive review of it in the

calcined on report and these books were from a wide variety of

Conservative evangelical Christians, they weren't all post -millennialist or anything like that, which showed me his charity.

He wasn't some kind of narrow bigoted sectarian that some people might

categorize somebody who is a reconstructionist as being Yeah, pretty.

He enjoyed gleaning truth from different sources if you will within conservative Bible believing Christianity.

Yeah, he read everything.

He read a like a book a day took note very very well read

Art music songs man.

He was a missionary to the Indians for many years before he got into even

foundation.

So he knew what was going on.

Very Prescient in what he saw was going to take place in the future and it wasn't because

you know, he was clairvoyant.

But he just take the application of the Bible and saw these things coming down the pike and he was a Calvinist Armenian.

He was not an Armenian, yeah, right.

Yes, and I always enjoy telling that the people who's a Calvinist on me.

And I'm assuming you meant not the David Brainerd type of Indians you mean the India Indians.

American Indian.

Oh, really?

Oh, wow. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay.

We have.

I'm sorry.

No, go ahead.

We have Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina.

How does the Olivet discourse and Daniel 70 weeks line up together with your eschatology viewpoint?

Or how do you see the last weeks fitting?

Well, the last week is the ninth week.

The first 70th week, you know Jesus is between the half

first three and a half years of the 70th week is Jesus ministry.

Jesus is cut off in the middle of the 70th week and in the last three and a half week or three and a half

years.

Takes us to the time that Peter is instructed by by God to take the gospel to the

Gentiles.

And that's the end of the 70th week.

There is no break between the 69th week 483 years and the 70th week.

The last seven years which was a total of 490 years.

And in Daniels Jesus does mention the abomination of desolation in in

Matthew chapter 24 15.

Which is a we have Chris in

Morton, Illinois.

I would like to ask Gary what his thoughts are on a person attending a church that teaches

Dispensationalism.

When I identify as somewhere between post mill and on mill I haven't been fully convinced which

I align with but lean post mill.

Is it worth bringing up to my pastors or should I go along with it and not say anything?

That's Caleb but I don't know maybe Caleb proxy should have been anonymous.

Very carefully when you talk about it sometimes.

But you have an answer.

Yeah.

If your church is feeding you well, and there really aren't many options I would stay you know, I would stay where you are if you're

gonna talk to your pastor.

Don't be confrontational.

I always like to take the Colombo approach.

Yes, you know you go in there just you know ask some questions.

I've got a question about this and if you come up with something says, okay, how would I deal with this?

You know, just you just need to be circumspect when you be when you deal with this.

A lot of dispensational churches if they're that's all they're dealing with that's a different story, but if it's.

If it's not the you know, the whole enchilada, you know about what they're what they're doing and it's just part of it.

You know, I'm okay with it.

If you don't have very many other options, you're not going to find that many Post -millennial churches you might you probably

find more on millennial churches.

And depending on where you are, I guess you could go online and just say hey I'm looking for an all -millennial, you know church with all millennial

eschatology and see what you can find.

And by the way, I think it might be wise for me to interject here that one of my largest sponsors who

loves this program Even though he knows I'm not a dispensationalist.

It's pastor Ron glass of waiting River Baptist Church on Long Island.

He is a thoroughgoing Calvinist and Dispensationalist and I can tell you that

as being one along with Reverend Buzz Taylor who edits His sermons for

a radio program that he airs he very rarely brings up those things that are unique to

dispensationalism.

That the things that he primarily preaches on are things that all three of us on this radio

program would agree upon.

So not every dispensationalist pastor is a hobby horse or or a right or a sectarian,

you know who some I mean some of the The guys in the fundamentalist fringe who have a very loony

idea that if you don't believe in their pre trib scenario You're you're a heretic, but that's that's not

that's not the description of.

Many many many dispensationalists and we would do that.

Look we would say the same thing.

Some guy was going to a church where the pastor is a preterist or post -molonialist and that's all we talked about.

I would give him the same advice.

I said look that that's not feeding you.

It's like eat too many carrots.

You're gonna get orange, you know, you eat you you go to the church and that's all you hear.

That's not that's not a good thing.

That's not a well -rounded diet, right?

By the way, Chris and Morton, Illinois.

Since you're a first -time questioner, you have won a free New American Standard Bible.

We don't have any more war and rumors of war books.

But we do have an NASB for you a beautiful one.

So we'll give us your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you by CV bbs .com.

CV bbs .com.

So thank you very much for that question, and we are running out of time.

I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your Contact information.

First of all the website for American vision

is.

And.

American vision org.

American vision org.

You can't get easier than that.

Do you have any other contact information that you care to give Gary?

That's that's the best one.

I'm on Facebook if people want to engage there.

I'm you know, I'm generally a pretty happy fellow on Facebook.

Just don't yell at me and say bad things about me and If you have any

if you want to you know, if you if you need something, you know, you can contact me through a V I generally and answer them.

You go on American vision last days madness 10 popular prophecy myths prophecy wars.

There's a bunch of stuff plus other stuff on

their articles every day and so forth.

So well, if you could wait on the line when we go off the air I'd like to schedule a few you for another interview if you don't mind.

Sure.

I don't feel like I don't feel like waiting nine years again.

All.

Right, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who wrote in and I want you all to always remember for the Rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.