Season 5 Is Here!

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast.

Thank you. I'm Dylan Hamilton. And with me are Michael Durham, Chris Giesler, Andrew Hudson, David Kasson. We are happy to be back after a summer break. Oh yeah, and we will be starting this season by first letting you know what we did with our summers, what we did with ourselves, what we thought about it, some of the stuff we did, read, how we grew, and then we'll be answering a question at the end of this podcast.

Summer Updates and Family Life

But we'll go ahead and start with you, Michael. What'd you do this summer? I'm trying to remember. It went by really fast. No, I really enjoyed hanging out with my family. We have a pool that we, you know, put up and then put down.

So I spent a lot of time cleaning the pool and playing with my family. And my youngest is now three years old, so he had a blast with that. And we rejoiced in my oldest son starting his full-time job as an electrician and helping him with that transition and just kind of seeing him grow into that.

So we were very thankful for that. Just recently teaching my second-born to drive. So we're doing driving lessons after a summer of finishing up the written side of driver's ed. So just keeping up with my children who are all getting older and have changing needs and rejoicing in being a father.

My wife and I are just very thankful to the Lord every day for the for the blessings that we have in our family and the way that he has continued to answer prayer and lead us along. So it's been it's been good.

It's been a good summer. It kind of went by rather fast, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was I was ready for the heat. I was actually looking forward to it. An Oklahoma blistering summer. We did not get that.

We got a cold rainy June and a very mild summer. So it was interesting. Yeah, if you wonder what winter is gonna be like. Yeah, all the old-timers around here are saying it's.

Gonna be really bad. Yeah, so this one's this summer's been kind of crazy. I'm just a lot of family stuff going on. A lot of different events. Some good, some bad. Started beekeeping. So that's pretty fun.

Really enjoying that. Hoping to expand the hives. Get some more in different places. And renamed my house Blue Cheese because it has mold in it. So working on that. And yeah, it's been very busy. And our oldest daughter got her first cell phone.

So that's been a challenge in itself. And trying to figure out how to lock it down. Keep her safe. Do all of that kind of stuff. And then just to have the the fun of getting a text from her in the middle of the day.

Saying I miss you. Or here's a funny cat picture. Or whatever it is. Different stuff. So it's fun to see her personality just in home. But then how she communicates in written form. What she finds humorous.

So that's been really fun to see that happen. And then she's communicating with grandparents and stuff like that. So those relationships are getting stronger. And then the challenges that brings with the oldest having a phone and the younger's not.

And how to work through those things. But Sam's getting bigger. He's a full-on boy. Just wants to headbutt everything. And so.

I'm loving it. It's great. Yeah, so I had an online college course that I did. Which meant I could basically do it from anywhere. And during the time over the summer, my family took an opportunity to go down to Panama City, Florida.

Specifically, Tyndall Air Force Base. We had not been there since the hurricane that came through. And it is still evident that this place is recovering. It was a good time being there. Got to go to the beach.

Four out of the five days we were there. So that was great. Thank the Lord for that opportunity. We also did this because my daughter, my eldest daughter, she's turning 16. And her pops gave her, slash our family, her Mimi, who's passed away, her old car.

And so we took a detour from Oklahoma to Florida to drive up to the Nashville area. And spent about a week there. Took the car and now we had two vehicles driving. Emily in one and myself and my daughter, my eldest daughter, in the other.

And so we took this 2000-ish era Saab and drove it from Nashville area to Oklahoma City. And so it was quite the journey. I thank the Lord that he, you know, preserved this vehicle and all of us together to be able to get back to Oklahoma City.

And now I'm driving it to make sure that it's good to give to her. She has been practicing. I know all about this teaching how to drive. What a strange thing it feels like that I'm recalling what it was like for me to learn how to drive.

And here I am sitting in the passenger seat. My how our lives go by. But it's been beautiful. And I thank the Lord for what he was able to.

Give us this summer. Well I am, I'm really glad to be back in the studio with you guys. I have, I have missed this. The summer is always a busy, busy time for me. It is, I think, you know, in the in the travel industry when most people are on vacation, you know, it's summertime and then of course on the holidays, I think that's when we make like 70 of our revenue.

So it's, you can imagine it is a busy, busy time from about the middle of May to about the third week in August. So I was incredibly busy. But in the end of April, beginning of May, my daughter graduated from high school.

I'm incredibly proud of her. And you know, she graduated from home school, and it was a home school co-op, but they actually had a full graduation ceremony. And my wife's side of the family was able to come, including our, her aunt, thankful for.

And my side of the family, that was an interesting dynamic, to say the least, knowing that my side of the family does not know, understand, appreciate, or agree with our, our stand on many issues. But they were proud of her.

And Elizabeth got her first job, you know, her first full-time job in W -2, and I was explaining taxes to her. And she now understands why I complain about them so much. And it's just, we were working at Taco Bell over the, over the summer.

And I said, all right, now that you've finished up your job at Taco Bell and you're heading off to college, how nice are you going to be to fast food workers from now on? She said, oh, very nice. Very, very nice.

I was like, okay, they work hard. There are people that do that job six days a week, 12 hours a day, to feed their families. So you'd be nice to them. They're working hard. And then we, we caravanned in our, in two cars, my, the car that my daughter has, and then our family, family, family van, the family truckster.

And we caravanned those out to Lynchburg, Virginia, so Elizabeth could start her freshman year at Liberty. And we were able to have a number of really good conversations. There are aspects of that school, the, the church that she's going to be going to, that are different from most of the people at this table, and, and, and just the way that I raised her.

And we were able to have very adult conversations. Everything from hermeneutics to unvoiced assumptions. And although I have disagreements, perhaps, with my father-in-law and the church that he serves in, I am incredibly grateful for that group of believers.

They are, especially, especially the older crowd. They love her. They, they, she has spent summers with them. They, they were so excited to hear that she was going to be coming and going to Liberty, and they were just ecstatic.

So she had this group of older people that just love her, want her there, and she has this, this, this church family that will, will be there for her. And that's, that was really very important to us.

She is thriving, and we're, we're very happy. My wife and I were able to take a very scenic drive back. We spent some time in Pigeon Forge, Gatlinburg area. We did go to Dolly Parton's Stampede, which I highly recommend.

It is fantastic. It's so much fun. Just Americana, and watching, we watched this, this girl ride, ride two horses, you know, stand on two horses and jump through a, a flaming hoop of fire. It was just fantastic.

It was, it was great. And then we, we didn't kind of want the, the, the trip to end, so we stopped in Eufaula, Lake Eufaula, just like, it's less than an hour away. And so we, we, we spent one more night just on the road because we, we enjoyed the time.

So it was just a, it was, it was a, it was a busy summer, and I was able to take some time off. But that, of course, front-loaded September, so that's, that's the cost. But it was, it was, it was a good summer, very productive, and just proud of the work that my, my daughter has done and that she's continuing to do the first year as.

A nursing student. Well, I'm thankful to hear everybody's summers have gone well, and there's been ups and downs, just like for me and everyone else around the table. We have done a lot of adding to our household this summer.

We've had kittens come in, we've had ducks come in, we've had chickens come in, and then we're also pregnant with our fifth, another little boy that is coming in January sometime. So we've done a lot of adding around our house.

I've bought tons of books that I haven't got to crack yet, and they're just stacking up on the other books that I haven't got to crack yet. But they're gonna, they're, they're there for a reason. They're gonna be opened up when I'm not working as often as I am.

But we're, we've been asking for less busy times, less time away, and more money in. That's the magic formula, right? Trying to, trying to add time to your life and do it without losing loads of, loads of liquidity in the bank.

So that's what we're, we've really been asking the Lord for through this season, because we've just been stretched to the limit on at least the time. So we've been really working hard and hustling, and our boys have watched us and grown and done the same thing.

And our little Meadow is now walking and enjoying her mobility and ability to get into cabinets with her older brother Charles. She could, she would live in there if she could, and Charles would lock her in there if he could.

So they really are a perfect team when it comes to getting stuff out of the cabinets and causing mayhem. But it's been working out really well. I'm very appreciative. I know, I know I'm glad to be back in here, but I'm also appreciative for the breaks that we have too, because, you know, we spend two to three hours here, and I know it's not many nights per month or a week, but that kind of stacks up when you're already away from the house quite a long time working.

So I'm thankful for the breaks, but I am glad to be back with you all here and to be answering the questions that are sent in to us, and hopefully we're gonna continue to do a good job. So we'll go ahead and get into that question asking, since I wrapped up my portion there, and if I can find it, here it is.

Question sent in to us, and it's tangential to a lot of the other questions that we've been sent this summer, so we're gonna try as best we can to wrap in some of the points or questions from all the other questions that sort of pertain to this tangentially.

But we're gonna ask this specific one because we think it addresses an argument that is current, especially within the Southern Baptist Convention, the arguments going on there. But we would also like to touch upon those other things that other questioners have sent in to us over the summer.

So the question reads, why should women not be pastors? I'm very conflicted about this issue. I've heard distinctions made between elders and pastors and was wondering if this had something to do with the topic.

Women as Pastors, Elders, and Teachers

Michael, you want to start us off? Yeah, okay, so this question is asked a lot, has been asked for a lot of different folks, especially if you're a sort of a denomination or a church movement that begins to incorporate more and more women in official positions of leadership in the church, either as teachers or deacons or pastors, elders, and so forth.

And the question comes, well, what does the Bible have to say about that? How are we to understand, is this good, is this bad? Obviously, these women love Jesus and they're trying to do these things out of a very heartfelt desire to honor the Lord.

I went to, my undergraduate was with a Christian university where they were actively training women to become pastors. And so my homiletics course, there were women in the group getting up and practicing preaching, you know, alongside the guys.

And I roomed with a man who, he was engaged to a woman who was going into the ministry, she was going to go, you know, pastor a church somewhere. One of my best friends there, she went off to become a staff pastor somewhere.

So I've thought a lot about that question, and one of the things that is encouraging is when we read the Scriptures, we are given a lot of clarity as to the answer. We're not left in doubt. We don't have to wring our hands at all.

We can rest in the, I think, the obvious and clear answer from the Word of God. So a couple of places to think about. Now, we're just going to think, first of all, about women being a pastor or an elder, the idea of them having not just a title, but the role in which they are instructing men, using the Word of God, bringing the authority of the Word of God upon the lives of men in the church.

Is that something that they should do, or anything that looks like it? Right. So, 1st Timothy chapter 2, in verse 8, Paul says, I desire, therefore, that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting, in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly clothing, but which is proper for women professing godliness with good works.

Verse 11 says, Let a woman learn in silence with all submission, and I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence. Now, this verses 11 and 12 there, in 1st Timothy 2, the same sentiments, the same idea is going to be repeated in 1st Corinthians 14.

The reasoning of what's said in 1st Corinthians 14 is based on something that Paul says in 1st Corinthians 11, and the reasoning that he says this in 1st Timothy 2, verses 11 and 12, is given next, in verses 13 through 15.

So, let's listen to that. So, here's his reasoning, here's why he says what he says. Verse 13, For Adam was formed first, then Eve. So, this is the order of creation. Paul sees a hierarchy in creation based on who was formed first.

So, what you'll notice is, the more likely, so the more often your denomination or your church has women in pastoral leadership, having authority over a man, doing the roles of ministry that the Bible sets aside for men, the more likely your church is pretty weak on the doctrine of creation.

There's a general correlation, I'm not saying it's an exact correlation, but there's a general correlation of churches that are said, Well, we just agree to disagree about, you know, your take on Genesis 1 and 2, or Genesis 1 through 11.

The early chapters of the Bible, you know, for some people, it's just symbol, it's myth, and it's, you know, it's meaningful, but it's not historical. And other people think it's historical, and we just agree to disagree about that.

Chances are, if you belong to a denomination or a church or group like that, they're more likely to have women in leadership. One of the reasons why is very practical. Paul is grounding the sense of roles with men and women in the church in the historicity of creation.

Further, he says, verse 14, and, here's another reason, Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control.

So, yes. Quick clarification on when it says authority in verse 11, isn't that a little bit, the word there, a little bit different than, like, when Christ says, by what authority do you think I do these things?

In what way? That one's like, the one I had pull up, it said, to usurp authority, as if, like, as if the man's authority was a given. Yeah, it has the idea of autonomy. Okay. So, it has the idea of, it's combining the idea of autos with another idea of, I'm gonna work this myself.

It has the idea of, I'm gonna do this myself, thank you very much. I'm not gonna let you do it, I'm gonna do it. So, the, and that's in verse, yeah, that's verse 12. So, the second reason is, Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived.

Now, again, this is back to the historicity of Genesis. Okay, what happened, and how did it happen? Okay. Remember that God, in the course of the Scriptures, puts the blame on who for the fall of humanity into sin.

Who gets the blame? Adam gets the blame. Whereas, when we read the historical account of what happened in Genesis, Eve is tempted by the serpent, and then she sins, but then she gives the fruit to her husband, who was with her, and he ate also.

And so, there's a responsibility that Adam bears, being formed first. There's something innate in the created order, where Adam is bearing responsibility for his wife, that the buck stopped with Adam, not with Eve.

And because of that, because of that hierarchy that is intentional in creation, that this same kind of creational relationship should be honored, this kind of dynamic should be honored within Christ's Church.

And some of the practical reasons for that, we're going to see in Corinthians. But when it says, nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self-control, what's the concern?

The concern is, well, if she was deceived by the serpent and brought all this terrible thing, then what good is a woman? And for a lot of people, yeah, yeah, what good is a woman?

Like, the image of woman is marred. Yeah. She's the one that brought sin into the world. It's the way it is because of her. Right. And so, someone's gonna be like,.

Well, you know, isn't woman a big problem then? And, you know, I would say that the only people that hate women more than misogynists are feminists. And part of that is because they resent, with a capital R, the idea that God created women for a particular purpose that is full of nurturing and full of life-giving relationships.

So, when it says she will be saved in childbearing, that's not talking about your sins are forgiven and you're going to heaven saved. Paul uses the term saved in more than one way. This is, how do you preserve womanhood?

How is womanhood going to be cherished and preserved and not be lost? Well, like Doug Wilson said the other day, women are the kind of people that other people come out of, trying to get humorously at the point that women are different than men.

He's pretty good at that humor bit. So, when we see this passage in 1st Timothy 2, there's not any confusion at all. It's not Paul saying women should learn in silence and with all submission in the church.

He's not saying that because that's a popular thing for him to say. He's not saying it because it reflects the times in which he lives. He's saying that because it's based out of creation's design and because of the historicity of Genesis, what happened, how it came about.

So, to underscore this, as soon as we get that clarified about who's supposed to have authority in the church, we get into 1st Timothy 3, which again, you know, Paul's not writing with chapters and verses here.

He's just continuing the flow of thought. And then we have a description of, if a man desires a position of a bishop, right, he desires a good work. And then there's descriptions about, so the idea of an overseer, an episkopos, an overseer, which is used as a synonym in the same idea as presbyteros, which is an elder, in the same types of, and with the same kind of synonym of to pastor, okay.

And so there are passages in the New Testament that blend all of these together and there's no distinction between them. An overseer is an elder, is a pastor. So, if a church says elder so-and-so and elder so-and-so, biblically speaking, based on the context of all these passages in the New Testament, it's the same thing as saying pastor, it's the same thing as saying bishop or overseer.

There's no distinction between those. And so, I'm talking about if a man desires a position of a bishop, well, then he should be the husband of one wife, so on and so forth. And then the same things with deacons, talking about deacons and then their wives, and then so both, it matters how men lead their families.

Okay, so we see the qualifications for elders and deacons, and then, you know, we see those same types of dynamics given to us in Titus. So, before we go to Corinthians, what are your all's thoughts about the question, especially concerning, like, how are we to understand this, women in ministry, elders, deacons?

I thought it was interesting when you talked about the woman is saved through childbearing. One of the other questions was something about, why do you not let women speak? Is this just your way to keep them silent?

And I thought, how interesting that they think that the only way to have a voice is to be a man, and the things they have them do is, when they'll have children, you need to go out and climb the ladder, you need to have this position, you need to have a speaking role, you need to be in charge, that that's what it means to have a voice.

And that's not the case, like, when you talk about Titus, and he tells older women to teach younger women, and the things that the older women are supposed to teach are geared towards a particular thing in the home.

And so, as an example, my wife and I are going through some difficult things with our house right now, but she's not silent. I rely on her to know how the kids are doing. I need her input to know how to best guide and love my children and direct them.

She's not seeking those things. Some of it is that they don't want those positions. There's a certain type of mindset that seeks after that authority. Authority comes from God, and it's delineated, and it's given for certain roles.

And she's not seeking that role. She's happy to play her role, and I'm happy to play mine, because of what God has given to us in His Word.

Yeah, we definitely rely on our—as a husband, and as a father, I am absolutely in need of my wife's voice. I need to hear from her, I need to see how she's doing, I want to hear how the kids are doing.

I need that very much. And even if we disagree, I still need to hear what she has to say. But this is not to say that no one's in charge, okay? One of the challenges we have in our current cultural context is that those who value power above all will then interpret anybody who has more power than me as, that's a problem, that's wrong.

And that if somebody has more power than somebody else, that there's something wrong here. And if the Bible is instructing us and saying that there's a hierarchy, that husbands have authority over their wives, that in the course of a church, that there's supposed to be male leadership in the church, and that the women are to rely on to their husbands and submit to their husbands, that there's something fundamentally wrong here.

Why would somebody think that it was fundamentally wrong? It's because they value power above all. You just hit on it. The same people who would say that subjection, willing subjection, equals inferior, are the same people who would say that Christ is not God incarnate.

How could he be subject willingly to the Father and yet be equal? These are things that bear upon each other. Yes, they do. They absolutely do. And we are told in 1 Peter 3 that husbands are to dwell with their wives with understanding, giving honor to the wife as to the weaker vessel.

Now, someone who hears that says, well, the Bible is demeaning women. Only if power is your prime value. The Bible does not demean women by acknowledging that they're different than men, that they're the weaker vessel, and by telling husbands to honor their wives, remembering who they are and live with them in an understanding way because your co -heirs in the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

Love your wife in the proper understanding way because she is different than you. But somebody hears, well, women are to keep silent in the church or submit to their husbands and that they're weaker. If you hear the Bible demeaning women in all those statements, then your value system, the presuppositions of your value system, don't match with God's value system.

And that's what has to be addressed first.

Michael, you had touched on it. Would you go into a little bit more in the passage in 2 Timothy, specifically 1 Timothy 1 .15, where it talks about saved through childbirth. That is the same word, the Greek word sozo.

It's still the same word that Paul uses in 2 Timothy 1 .9, where he says, you know, God saved us and called us to a holy calling. Saved. Cursory, you know, Google search to say that there's multiple meanings to this word.

When Paul is saying that a woman is saved through childbirth, in what sense? The healing, the made whole, because he's referencing this fall that Eve was deceived and Adam, who bears the brunt of it as the man, because that is his role.

He is provider and protector and leader. The buck stops with him. So he is the one ultimately responsible. But how, in what sense, is a woman saved through childbirth in reference to Eve, if we're keeping it in the local context that.

Paul has here? Yeah, so one thing, I read through all of Paul's letters, every instance where he used the term save. So I've read through all of that, his use of sozo. Okay. Half the time, it's very clearly, he's talking about born again, sins forgiven, filled with the Holy Spirit, eternal life.

It's very clear. And Paul loves to talk about that salvation. The other half of the time, I would say a quarter of that, so one quarter of the time he uses the term, you could probably go either way. You're not quite sure.

A case could be made. But then another 25 of the time, he's just talking about getting being delivered out of a bad situation, like from shipwreck. When Paul talked about being saved from shipwreck, he wasn't talking about his sins being forgiven.

Okay. So in this context, what does it mean? And there's been a variety of interpretations on it. One of the main ones is, okay, because it's talking about Eve, ultimately because of the promise of Genesis 3 .15, we see that salvation comes by the birth of the promised one, the seed.

I find this compelling because of course we love that truth, but I just I don't see how it actually fits with what Paul was saying exactly there. It seems really loose. A little bit later on in 1st Timothy chapter 4, when he's writing to Timothy, he says in verse 16, take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.

Okay. Continue in them, for in doing this, you will save both yourself and those who hear you. Now, does that mean that we save ourselves by having real, pure, careful doctrine? Is that what Paul is saying?

Is he meaning that our sins are forgiven, our station in heaven is secured by our having really pure doctrine, and that we save others? Like I as a pastor, as I'm preaching, as I'm teaching, I make sure others go to heaven by my ability to make sure that they have really clear doctrine.

If I can catechize them well, so on and so forth. Is that what he means by that? I don't think that's what he means by that, given the context, his concern that many make a shipwreck of their ministries, of their lives, and so on, because they've got bad doctrine.

You know what? Bad doctrine ruins lives. Bad doctrine ruins lives, and people end up in horrible situations. And so having sound doctrine, having good doctrine, actually gets a lot of people out of a lot of problems.

And I think that's what Paul is saying to Timothy about being a pastor. So, likewise, in this context in 1 Timothy 2, what does it mean that nevertheless, she, who's the she? Verse 13 says, for Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Eve. Here's Adam, big figurehead, all-mankind. Here's Eve. Why did Adam name her Eve? She's the mother of all the living. That's why she was named Eve, and it's a very honorable name. And so she's the mother of all the living.

Mother. Then Adam, verse 14, Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. So we're thinking of the woman. We're thinking of manhood and womanhood. What are the roles of manhood and womanhood in the church?

What does that look like? So that's what he's talking about. We're Nevertheless, she, meaning who? Woman. The whole archetype woman. Womanhood. How is womanhood preserved? In childbearing. As she continues in faith, love, and holiness with self-control, this is what womanhood is to look like.

This is God's plan for women whom he has made in his image, that this brings glory to him. This is a good thing. How many times do we need to reiterate in every generation that it's a good thing that God made women to be women and that they're not the same thing as a man?

That's a good thing. It makes me think like in the.

Culture we're talking about, and there's this feminism, and men and women are equal, and okay, that's not even defined. Like, what do you mean by equal and all of that? But by childbearing, our culture is very much against the role that women should be playing according to the Bible.

But then when you look at the people that embrace that, or what's coming up out of that, that the men honor them because that role, we, like, half of the human race can't produce babies. We can't, we just can't.

We can't do that. It's not physically possible. And it's like, you can do that? Yeah, you do that. I'm going to make money. I'm going to go provide for these children. You do this amazing thing that I can't do.

Let's make that agreement, and we'll call it marriage or something. I don't know. Well,.

And originally, how did God design it? All of human society was captured by this vision of marriage. God made Adam, and then he made Eve, stand out, stand along, made her from his very own flesh and blood, brought her to the man for this reason, a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

All of human society is understood within the context of the original marriage. And if we don't understand what marriage is about, the fact that there's hierarchy, that there's roles, that there's differences, and it's good, it's a partnership for it to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, if we don't wrap our heads around this being glorifying to God, then we're going to have unhealthy human society, unhealthy, unhealthy life, bad families, bad communities, bad nations, all the way down the line, to the degree that we dishonor God's design for men and women, and to the degree we dishonor marriage, the worse everything gets.

And when we're looking at how the dynamic of marriage relates to everything in life, the way that the woman relates to the man, the way that the man is to relate to the woman, and how they're to raise family together, that this is God's basic plan, that we're to honor and call it good.

Are there exceptions to that? Yes, there's sin, there's problem, there's tragedies, things don't work out. We can see, we can look at all of the exceptions, but that doesn't change the rule. And there are exceptions because of what the rule is, what the norm is.

We should celebrate the norm of marriage and family, because that's the way God made the world and called it very good. And so that has an impact on how we do church. And so what does that look like? If there are roles in a marriage, and there are, and the wife is to submit to her husband, then what does that look like in the life of a church?