April 30, 2026 Show with Ken Ham, Mark Looy, & Jeremy Brandenburg with “A Loving Tribute to Charlie Liebert, Former Atheist Saved by Jesus Christ Who Championed Young Earth Creationism”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this final day of April, April 30th, 2026.

As many of you heard who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio regularly, a dear friend of mine not long ago went home to be with the Lord. His name is Charlie Liebert, founder of sixdaycreation .com. Charlie had been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times and even co-hosted with me during one of my interviews with Ken Ham, co-founder of Answers in Genesis.

Well, because of the fact that Charlie was such a dear friend and such a champion for young earth creationism and biblical truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I wanted to make sure I had a program in loving tribute and in memory of Charlie Liebert, and we have joining us today three individuals perfectly suited for that task.

We have, first of all, joining us Ken Ham, one of the co-founders of Answers in Genesis. It's a joy and an honor and a privilege to have you coming back once again to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Ken Ham.

Hi.

Thanks. It's a pleasure to be with you and talk about Charlie and also issues pertaining to the book of Genesis and origins and what's happening in our culture.

Amen.

And also joining us today is Mark Loy, one of the other co-founders of Answers in Genesis. It's a joy to have you on the program, Mark.

Glad to be here to pay tribute to a wonderful man and also to tip my cap to his widow, Terri, and the rest of the family. We're honored to do this. Thank you, Chris.

And last but not least, Charlie's pastor is with us today, my friend Jeremy Brandenburg, pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Thank you for carving the time out of your busy schedule to be with us today, Pastor Jeremy.

Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me on. It's an easy and a wonderful thing to do to talk about my friend, Charlie.

Yes, I had the privilege of meeting Charlie at some point near 2015—I can't remember exactly when Charlie moved from Greensboro, North Carolina, to Carlisle—but I was told by his son-in-law during a conversation one evening that, did you know that my father-in-law was raised in the same town where you were born and raised, Amityville, Long Island?

And I said, no, I did not know that. And so I was eager to meet Charlie and then discovered that Charlie was an apologist to be reckoned with, deeply rooted in the teaching of young earth creationism, that he had worked with Answers in Genesis in hosting conferences.

And I knew that I had to get to know this brother more deeply, and I knew that I had to have him on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. But Ken, can you recall when you first became familiar with Charlie and any impressions he made upon you?

Well, yeah, it goes back to the 1990s, actually, when we first started our ministry. The ministry of Answers in Genesis technically started December 1993, but we moved to Kentucky in 1994. And I know that Charlie was an occasional speaker for us, actually, at Answers in Genesis.

And of course, for me, I only ever knew him as an ardent creationist who wanted to get out there and do his best to answer questions and tell people about the truth concerning Genesis, but found out that he had an interesting history because he wasn't always a Christian and creationist.

But something else that intrigued me about Charlie, too, was that one of the things that he said was one of the most common objections that he received to the reliability of the Bible was the question, where did Cain get his wife?

Who was Cain's wife? And the interesting thing is, that's one of the most asked questions I've been asked in 50 years, and maybe not quite as much these days because we've actually answered that so many times.

It's on our website and that sort of thing. But I still find, for instance, I was speaking to a ministry that is involved in after-school ministry, and they try to get as many public school students as they can after school to come and minister to them.

And so I was doing a conference for them. And they told me that the most asked question they get asked from public school students really is, who was Cain's wife? But couched in different ways. Well, if the Bible is true and we go back to Adam and Eve, where did all the people come from?

If there was only Cain and Abel and so on. And so Charlie found the same sorts of things that I did, that people had these objections to the reliability of the Bible. It was important to give them answers.

And as you know, he wrote a book called Always Be Ready to give an answer and talked a bit about answering people's questions and objections, particularly from his background too, as someone who originally was an atheist and who had rejected God totally, even though he was brought up in the church.

I can remember when Charlie was co-hosting with me, Ken, when I had one of the times that I had you on the program, before the show started, Charlie and I both got a kick out of you saying, Charlie Liebet, you're still alive.

You must be the oldest living dinosaur.

Are you trying to copy my Australian accent?

It sounded a little more cockney than it did.

Well, it sounded like an American tribe pretending that they're speaking with an Australian accent.

That's what it sounded like to me. I know I always call people older than myself, you know, living fossils. So I think I'm becoming a living fossil myself these days, but we've been around for a while.

But you know, it's interesting when you look at the history of the creationist movement, God raised up all sorts of people in that movement to be able to get the message out there to the world. And Charlie was one of those.

And, you know, I often think about, you know, the late Dr. Henry Morris and the late Dwayne Gish. Many people will recognize those names from the Institute for Creation Research that Henry Morris founded in California.

And then Dr. John Wickham, who was also a wonderful, wonderful friend of ours, who was a co-author, along with Henry Morris, of the famous book, The Genesis Flood. Dr. D. James Kennedy and so many others that took such a strong, bold stand on Genesis as Charlie did.

And it's a challenge, I think, to people. I want to make that challenge to say, hey, you know what? All those now are in heaven with the Lord. We need others to take their place. And we need to see others raised up to take Charlie's place and to take the place of, you know, Henry Morris and Dwayne Gish and D. James Kennedy and others so that we can proclaim this message.

Of course, we do our best at Answers in Genesis, and we're thrilled that we actually were able to know Charlie and have a relationship with him and involved in some conferences with him and to be able to see what God had called him to do and the impact he had.

Now others need to take up the baton and say, we're going to get out there and do it.

By the way, a listener in Moundsville, Alabama, just chimed in and agreed with you, Ken, about my horrible imitation of an Australian. He said I sounded more like Dick Van Dyke in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

I think he meant Mary Poppins, actually. But anyway, Mark Loy, you got to know Charlie very well when he was giving presentations for Answers in Genesis. Why don't you tell our listeners something about your meeting with Charlie and what you most remember about him?

Yes, I probably had more interaction with Charlie than Ken did. We were brand new as a ministry, as Ken said, in 1994. And we were primarily back then, before our attractions, before the Ark Encounter opened, before the Creation Museum opened in 2007.

We were primarily a seminar and conference ministry, going from church to church, sometimes convention centers. We wanted to do as much ministry as we could, not only to help our fledgling organization with new names for the mailing list, but to alert people about the future Creation Museum coming to northern Kentucky near Cincinnati.

So we put together not only a full-time staff of speakers and researchers, but adjunct speakers like Charlie. We discovered him probably within the first year of our ministry's existence. And so he would go into some of those churches in his region.

I think he was living maybe in New York State, or it might have been Long Island, but he would do those churches that it would be very difficult for the churches to fly us in, pay for the expenses of all of that.

So Charlie would go from church to church representing us, giving talks that were right in line with ours, using apologetics to share his faith. And I do recall, you know, reading his book years and years ago that, and maybe pastor here can fill in some blanks, but as I recall, Charlie grew up in a church.

It might have even been a Bible-believing church, but he just saw so much hypocrisy in that church, and he wasn't getting answers that really defended the authority of the Bible and the historicity of Christianity.

And so he became a hardcore atheist, I think, by the time he left his house and left home. And he became what I would, I don't know if Charlie would call it this, but a bit of an atheist evangelist. He would like to go out there and challenge Christians with questions like, well, if there's a God in this world, why is there so much death and suffering?

That was kind of his go-to question, and guess what? Most Christians could not come up with an answer to that question, which is one of the most we still get here at our ministry. It just happens to have its answers in Genesis, starting with Genesis 3, and perhaps Ken can elaborate on that later.

But when he turned—and he had a background, I think, in chemistry, so he was steeped in science, but he had been evolutionized, if you will. But he became a Christian in his 30s, and as I recall— and again, my memory could be a little fuzzy here.

I've known the man for 30 years, but he didn't become a creationist right away because he still was an evolutionist, or at least doubting evolution. It took him two or three years of study and reading your book, Ken, The Lie, and a few others, and then as he grew to have a deeper appreciation of Scripture, it was easier for him to jettison his evolutionary beliefs, and he became not only an on-fire Christian, but an on-fire apologist for the Christian faith to the point where he could answer questions like, why do we have answer, death, and suffering?

I mean, last time I saw Charlie, I think he was in a wheelchair dealing with some spinal issues, but he didn't shake his fist at God for what was happening to him. He knew that we live in a cursed universe where things were going to get worse as you grew older and older.

And I was privileged to see him, I think three or four years ago, he drove all the way out of here to visit us at the Creation Museum, understanding perhaps this might be the last opportunity he would have to meet with me and see how God had blessed us here in northern Kentucky.

So, wonderful how God touched a man who was—. I mean, he was a very vocal atheist and loved to challenge Christians, but he eventually, over time, got those answers that he used to evangelize the lost by answering their questions.

He was a proponent of what we call creation evangelism, using the book of Genesis as a springboard to share your faith because many of the most asked questions people have about the Bible, like death and suffering, even the question of racism, where do all the people come from, sanctity of life, many of the answers that we deal with today are addressed in the book of Genesis.

A privilege to get to know him and to know his heart, and he leaves a legacy of some books that we have here in front of us that I hope will far outlive his legacy.

You know, Mark, I think there's a lesson here for the church as well, because when you look at those early years for Charlie, he was in a church, he saw hypocrisy, but he didn't get answers because so many churches have not taught apologetics.

And it's a lesson for the church to make sure that you're teaching apologetics. I've met so many young people over the years, I've been speaking for 50 years, who said they didn't get those answers in church and it caused them to doubt the Bible.

And that's one of the things that we do at the Ark Counter, the Creation Museum, through the exhibits, is to give answers. We're an apologetics ministry, but we're urging churches to make sure you're teaching apologetics, actually at all ages.

And the same for Christian schools. We have our own Christian school here, Answers Academy. We make sure all ages get taught apologetics. And it's interesting that a book that impacted Charlie in a big way was my book, The Lie, which is the first book I ever wrote.

I wrote that back in 1986, it was published in 1987, and I've had a couple of updates and expansions to it. So next year will be the 40th anniversary of that book. But that book impacted a lot of people.

I've received a lot of testimonies, and it's because it deals with the biblical aspects and the importance of the book of Genesis and how foundational it is to all doctrine. In fact, ultimately, every single biblical doctrine of theology, directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis 1 -11.

I also deal with the death issue, that there wasn't death before sin, that it was sin that brought death, which then deals with the supposed millions of years issue. That you can't have millions of years of death before sin.

And I know Charlie really loved what was in that book, The Lie, and it impacted him. I remember him telling me about that.

And Chris, I recall too that as Charlie, as a relatively young Christian, but wanted to share his faith, he was listening to atheists and maybe compromising Christians about the questions they were asking about the reliability of the Bible.

He came up with, I think, ten topics that he mastered, including the one about dinosaurs. He had a whole talk on how dinosaurs are explained by the Bible. And we've noticed that even with our Creation Museum and in our books, that that's a topic that even Christians are wondering, where do you put dinosaurs in Scripture?

But Charlie had the answer, and I'm pretty sure it's in one of these books that we have in front of us. So he was always a student, always learning the newest arguments against creation and for evolution.

He would study them and be ready to counteract them.

By the way, you probably will not remember this, Mark and Ken, because you've been to so many states and cities across the country, but the first time I discovered Answers in Genesis, I'm not even sure you were using the name Answers in Genesis at the time.

You may have been. I just don't remember. But it was in the 1980s, and there was a creation conference at Smithtown Gospel Tabernacle on Long Island. Yes.

Yeah, I remember it.

And I was there, and I was absolutely blown away with the arguments that you had for dinosaurs living at the same time on this planet with humans and things like that. I had never heard anyone discuss these matters in such great depth, and I became an immediate fan of yours, and most importantly, a firm believer in a six-day creation.

And I could not get enough, and still to this day can't get enough of that. That's why I've had so many young earth creationists on my program. Thank you. And this is an area that this young earth creationism sadly divides the body of Christ.

Can you tell us, what would be some of the primary reasons why this is not a trivial issue? Now, I'm not saying that old earth creationists are not our brothers in Christ. I do believe that many of them are.

But why is it still nonetheless such a very important issue, Ken?

You know, it's not a salvation issue, as you said, because salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ. It's faith alone, Christ alone. But it is a biblical authority issue. And one of the things that's important for people to understand is that if you just start from Scripture and read Scripture, read Genesis as it's written, you don't get the idea of millions of years of death before man.

And that idea comes from outside the Bible. In fact, really in our era, which I would point to late 1700s, so late 18th century, early 19th century to the present, is really the era that we live in, and it's called a scientific age.

But it's also an age where we saw the rise of naturalism, which is really that you can explain everything without God. So atheistic ideas. And in the late 1700s, there were atheists and deists who were saying, how do you explain the fossil record by natural processes?

You know, no God, we don't believe the Bible, don't believe in Noah's flood. And so they came up with the idea that they were laid down over millions of years. And that's where the idea of millions of years came from.

It came out of naturalism primarily. And then many Christian leaders have attempted to add that into the Bible, reinterpret the days of creation, put in a gap between Genesis 1 and 2 or whatever. But what they're doing is they're taking a belief based on naturalism, which is the religion of man, if you like, man's word-based religion.

It's a religion of naturalism. And they're adding that into the Bible and changing God's word. Whenever you're starting from outside of Scripture and taking something into Scripture to reinterpret Scripture, you are attacking biblical authority, you're undermining the authority of the Word of God.

And when you've done that for generations, what happens is a lot of those generations start to then question, can you really trust the Bible if the history in Genesis is not true? And there's theological implications here too, because when you look at the fossil record, it's a record of death, but not just death.

There's diseases in the fossil such as cancer and abscesses and arthritis. And, you know, for instance, in the Carnegie Museum in Pennsylvania, there's an example of a t-rex bone with a tumor in it, in other words, cancer.

And if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, then all that existed supposedly millions of years before man, but after God made man, he said everything was very good. Now you've got God calling cancer very good.

We've got to remember that Romans 8 .22 says the whole creation groans because of man's sin. The world we're looking at today is not a world that's gone on for millions of years. It's a world that's suffering from the effects of sin and the curse.

And it's a groaning world. So to blame God for death, suffering, and disease before man, and then God calls all that very good, is also an attack on the character of God. And it's important to understand, you know, the first death in the Bible was in Genesis 3, Genesis 3 .21, when God killed animals and clothed Adam and Eve.

It's really the first blood sacrifice as a covering for his sin. Picture what was to come in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away our sin. And so if there was death millions of years before that event, what has death got to do with why Jesus died on the cross?

What has death got to do with taking away our sin? You know, the Bible describes death as an enemy. It's an intrusion. And one day death will be thrown into the lake of fire. So I think the whole issue of death is such an important one, to understand it's because of sin.

It did not exist before man sinned. Everything was very good. All the animals were vegetarian, Genesis 1 .29 -30 to start with anyway. The Bible makes that very, very clear. But the big issue comes down to one of biblical authority.

Once you reinterpret God's Word based on man's ideas from outside of Scripture, you're unlocking a door. You're unlocking a door. It can put you on a slide of a slippery slope through the Bible as people doubt and then don't believe God's Word as they should.

And generations have been led to believe that the history in Genesis can't be trusted. And now, you know what we've seen? Look at what's happened in the church, a catastrophic generational loss. As we see, the number of Generation Z that are now in Protestant churches is less than 5%.

You go back to the 1700s, 70 to 80 of the population attended church. And it's all got to do with the undermining of biblical authority. And I believe the whole issue of naturalism being brought into God's Word is a big reason for this as we've seen that catastrophic generational loss in the era that we live in.

And, Mark, I know that you have to leave us in about five minutes. I want to thank you personally for going out of your way to have Ken and yourself record that video tribute to Charlie, which was played at the very beginning of the memorial service at Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle.

And that was your idea to do that, and I was very moved by that. And as Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg will tell you, that was a great blessing to the Liebert family. But thank you so much.

Yeah, happy to do that. I just have a warm spot in my heart for people like Charlie who came from a very atheistic background, and God saved him and completely turned him around. 180 degrees. And so it was my honor to get Ken and myself in the studio here to say thank you, Charlie, for all those years of toiling away.

But I do have one question for Terry when I talk to her next, the widow. Charlie grew up in Long Island. He had that Long Island accent. Spent all those years in North Carolina and then Pennsylvania, and he still sounded like he was from Long Island.

That's right.

He just couldn't get rid of that accent.

Well, do you have any final words before you depart from us, Mark?

I want to extend an invitation to Terry and the rest of the family to visit us here in northern Kentucky. I know where you generally live in Carlisle, a very historic place, as you said at the very beginning of the program.

I guess you could drive. We're in the Cincinnati area, just south of Cincinnati. I think you can drive from your area to here in under seven hours. And so I encourage the Liebert family, their friends, maybe Pastor Jeremy to think about bringing a group here to tour the Ark and the museum.

You'll need two full days to do both. But I'll be the point of contact to arrange that with Terry and with Jeremy here. That'd be another way for us to say thank you, Charlie Liebert.

The Charlie Liebert Memorial Tour.

We'll do something special.

Praise God. By the way, I just want to make sure I give our listeners the website for Answers in Genesis, which I will be repeating later. It's answersingenesis .org, answersingenesis .org, but I will be repeating that.

Mark, thank you for taking the time to be with us today. I know you're a busy man. And when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to continue with some questions for Ken Ham. And also we'll have Jeremy Brandenburg, Charlie Liebert's pastor, chime in.

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Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, my guests today are Ken Ham, one of the founders of Answers in Genesis, and also Jeremy Brandenburg, the pastor of the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And we are paying tribute to a dear brother and friend who is now in eternity with Christ, Charlie Liebert. He was a member here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and he was founder of sixdaycreation .com.

And at one time led conferences for Answers in Genesis. And Ken, even though I wasn't planning on taking listener questions today, I've got a listener who chimed in in Clifton, New Jersey, Joey, whose questions were so good, I wanted to read them to you.

Joey asks, I have really appreciated your apologetic of biblical authority for many years now, apart from those who advocate intelligent design, have you seen any shifts in the more general secular scientific community?

That's his first question.

Well, I'd have to say that I haven't seen any shifts in the secular community per se. And, you know, I think the intelligent design movement was a movement that they thought they could reach the secular movement by not mentioning the Bible and not mentioning who the designer is.

But we've always maintained that you cannot divorce what we're advocating from the word of God, because that's the foundation for everything. And faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word, and it's God's word that will not return unto him void.

And so we should never divorce what we're doing from God's word. But I will say this, that, you know, when you look at the Ark and the Creation Museum as attractions, 30 of those who come are non-Christians.

That's one of the reasons we built the attractions, because we recognize we would reach people that you normally wouldn't reach and people who normally wouldn't go into a church. And our research indicates that, and we've done this research year after year, and it's really good research and very valid research.

We get about 1 .5 million visits to the Creation Museum and the Ark each year. We've had 15 million people come since we opened the Creation Museum. And then that was in 2007. The Ark was opened in 2016.

But the statistics show that about 70 ,000 people a year say that they become Christians as a result of coming to the Ark Encounter, and 30 ,000 a year at the Creation Museum. That's 100 ,000 people a year.

So what I would say is this ministry is certainly impacting people, and that's just the attractions, let alone everything else that we do. And I think none of us in various ministries that we're involved in will know who we've really impacted until we get to be with the Lord.

But as far as the secular scientific community and so on, I mean, their hearts are very, very hard. They're very hard to reach. But what we need to do is be faithful, do the business of the king until he returns, and that's what we do.

And we see people who are being saved and one to the Lord, and we've got to remember we're on the narrow road, and the broad way will always be the broad way. So there'll always be a majority who do not stand with us, and that doesn't matter because we just need to be faithful in proclaiming the truth of God's Word and the gospel.

Now, you say that there hasn't been any shift in the secular scientific community that you've observed, but what about the allegiance in the secular scientific community to Darwinianism or Darwinism?

Well, I think I've read a lot of articles on that that seem to indicate there's a lot of people who are questioning that and certainly recognize there's problems with it. But, you know, to question it or to say, you know, there's something else behind the universe is one thing, but to actually say that, hey, we're going to stand on God's Word, the Bible, and trust the God of creation, that's a whole different area.

And Joey's second question is, from the perspective of scientific evidence, which evidences do you tend to most use these days for young earth?

Well, obviously, number one is the Bible. I mean, that is evidence, right? We have it with us. It's God's Word, God's written Word. And, you know, one of the things I always explain to people is that, you know, as fallible sinful human beings, we don't know everything.

We know nothing compared to what God knows. We need to learn the lesson of Job there in regard to that. And so you can't use evidence as proof because all evidence is interpreted. What you can use is use observational science to confirm God's Word, but you can't use that to prove that.

You can't use evidence to prove a young earth. But you can show that there's a lot of things that actually contradict the idea of billions of years. One of my favorite ones we have at the Ark Encounter.

It's on the third deck. It's in the Ice Age exhibit. When I debated Bill Nye at the Creation Museum in 2014—.

I saw that. I saw that.

Yeah, that's been seen by over 25 million people now, that debate. And one of the things he did was mock me for believing in a young earth because he said— and by the way, the reason I believe in a young earth is because I start from Scripture.