April 30, 2026 Show with Ken Ham, Mark Looy, & Jeremy Brandenburg with “A Loving Tribute to Charlie Liebert, Former Atheist Saved by Jesus Christ Who Championed Young Earth Creationism”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this final day of April, April 30th, 2026.

As many of you heard who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio regularly, a dear friend of mine not long ago went home to be with the

Lord. His name is Charlie Liebert, founder of sixdaycreation .com.

Charlie had been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times and even co -hosted with me during one of my interviews with Ken Ham, co -founder of Answers in Genesis.

Well, because of the fact that Charlie was such a dear friend and such a champion for young earth creationism and biblical truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I wanted to make sure

I had a program in loving tribute and in memory of Charlie Liebert, and we have joining us today three individuals perfectly suited for that task.

We have, first of all, joining us Ken Ham, one of the co -founders of Answers in Genesis.

It's a joy and an honor and a privilege to have you coming back once again to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Ken Ham. Hi. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be with you and talk about Charlie and also issues pertaining to the book of Genesis and origins and what's happening in our culture.

Amen. And also joining us today is Mark Loy, one of the other co -founders of Answers in Genesis.

It's a joy to have you on the program, Mark. Glad to be here to pay tribute to a wonderful man and also to tip my cap to his widow,

Terry, and the rest of the family. We're honored to do this. Thank you, Chris. And last but not least,

Charlie's pastor is with us today, my friend Jeremy Brandenburg, pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Thank you for carving the time out of your busy schedule to be with us today, Pastor Jeremy. Hi, Chris.

Thanks for having me on. It's an easy and a wonderful thing to do to talk about my friend,

Charlie. Yes, I had the privilege of meeting Charlie at some point near 2015—I can't remember exactly when

Charlie moved from Greensboro, North Carolina, to Carlisle—but I was told by his son -in -law during a conversation one evening that, did you know that my father -in -law was raised in the same town where you were born and raised,

Amityville, Long Island? And I said, no, I did not know that. And so I was eager to meet Charlie and then discovered that Charlie was an apologist to be reckoned with, deeply rooted in the teaching of young earth creationism, that he had worked with Answers in Genesis in hosting conferences.

And I knew that I had to get to know this brother more deeply, and I knew that I had to have him on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

But Ken, can you recall when you first became familiar with Charlie and any impressions he made upon you?

Well, yeah, it goes back to the 1990s, actually, when we first started our ministry. The ministry of Answers in Genesis technically started

December 1993, but we moved to Kentucky in 1994. And I know that Charlie was an occasional speaker for us, actually, at Answers in Genesis.

And of course, for me, I only ever knew him as an ardent creationist who wanted to get out there and do his best to answer questions and tell people about the truth concerning Genesis, but found out that he had an interesting history because he wasn't always a

Christian and creationist. But something else that intrigued me about Charlie, too, was that one of the things that he said was one of the most common objections that he received to the reliability of the

Bible was the question, where did Cain get his wife? Who was

Cain's wife? And the interesting thing is that's one of the most asked questions I've been asked in 50 years, and maybe not quite as much these days because we've actually answered that so many times.

It's on our website and that sort of thing. But I still find, for instance,

I was speaking to a ministry that is involved in after -school ministry, and they try to get as many public school students as they can after school to come and minister to them.

And so I was doing a conference for them. And they told me that the most asked question they get asked from public school students really is who was

Cain's wife, but couched in different ways. Well, if the Bible is true and we go back to Adam and Eve, where do all the people come from if there was only

Cain and Abel and so on? And so Charlie found the same sorts of things that I did, that people had these objections to the reliability of the

Bible. It was important to give them answers. And as you know, he wrote a book called Always Be Ready to Give an

Answer, and talked a bit about answering people's questions and objections, particularly from his background too, as someone who originally was an atheist and who had rejected

God totally, even though he was brought up in the church. I can remember when

Charlie was co -hosting with me, Ken, when I had one of the times that I had you on the program, before the show started,

Charlie and I both got a kick out of you saying, Charlie Liebet, you're still alive.

You must be the oldest living dinosaur. Are you trying to copy my

Australian accent? It sounded a little more cockney than it did. Well, it sounded like an

American tribe pretending that they're speaking with an Australian accent. That's what it sounded like to me. I always call people older than myself, you know, living fossils.

I think I'm becoming a living fossil myself these days, but we've been around for a while.

But you know, it's interesting, when you look at the history of the creationist movement,

God raised up all sorts of people in that movement to be able to get the message out there to the world.

And Charlie was one of those. I often think about the late Dr. Henry Morris and the late

Dwayne Gish. Many people will recognize those names from the Institute for Creation Research that Henry Morris founded in California.

And then Dr. John Wickham, who was also a wonderful, wonderful friend of ours, who was a co -author, along with Henry Morris, of the famous book,

The Genesis Flood. Dr. D. James Kennedy and so many others that took such a strong, bold stand on Genesis as Charlie did.

And it's a challenge, I think, to people. I want to make that challenge to say, hey, you know what?

All those now are in heaven with the Lord. We need others to take their place. And we need to see others raised up to take

Charlie's place and to take the place of, you know, Henry Morris and Dwayne Gish and D.

James Kennedy and others so that we can proclaim this message.

Of course, we do our best at Answers in Genesis, and we're thrilled that we actually were able to know

Charlie and have a relationship with him and involved in some conferences with him and to be able to see what

God had called him to do and the impact he had. Now others need to take up the baton and say, we're going to get out there and do it.

By the way, a listener in Moundsville, Alabama, just chimed in and agreed with you,

Ken, about my horrible imitation of an Australian. He said, I sounded more like Dick Van Dyke in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

I think he meant Mary Poppins, actually. But anyway, Mark Loy, you got to know

Charlie very well when he was giving presentations for Answers in Genesis.

Why don't you tell our listeners something about your meeting with Charlie and what you most remember about him?

Yes, I probably had more interaction with Charlie than Ken did. We were brand new as a ministry, as Ken said, in 1994, and we were primarily back then, before our attractions, before the

Ark Encounter opened, before the Creation Museum opened in 2007. We were primarily a seminar and conference ministry, going from church to church, sometimes convention centers.

We wanted to do as much ministry as we could, not only to help our fledgling organization with new names for the mailing list, but to alert people about the future of Creation Museum coming to northern

Kentucky near Cincinnati. So, we put together not only a full -time staff of speakers and researchers, but adjunct speakers like Charlie.

We discovered him probably within the first year of our ministry's existence, and so he would go into some of those churches in his region.

I think he was living maybe in New York State, or it might have been

Long Island, but he would do those churches that it would be very difficult for the churches to fly us in, pay for the expenses of all of that.

So, Charlie would go from church to church, representing us, giving talks that were right in line with ours, using apologetics to share his faith.

And I do recall reading his book years and years ago that—and maybe

Pastor here can fill in some blanks—but as I recall, Charlie grew up in a church.

It might have even been a Bible -believing church, but he just saw so much hypocrisy in that church, and he wasn't getting answers that really defended the authority of the

Bible and the historicity of Christianity. And so, he became a hardcore atheist,

I think, by the time he left his house and left home. And he became what

I would—I don't know if Charlie would call it this—but a bit of an atheist evangelist.

He would like to go out there and challenge Christians with questions like, well, if there's a

God in this world, why is there so much death and suffering? That was kind of his go -to question, and guess what?

Most Christians could not come up with an answer to that question, which is one of the most we still get here at our ministry.

It just happens to have its answers in Genesis, starting with Genesis chapter 3.

And perhaps Ken can elaborate on that later. But when he turned—and he had a background,

I think, in chemistry, so he was steeped in science, but he had been evolutionized, if you will.

But he became a Christian in his 30s, and as I recall—and again, my memory could be a little fuzzy here,

I've known the man for 30 years—but he didn't become a creationist right away, because he still was an evolutionist, or at least doubting evolution.

It took him two or three years of study, and reading your book, Ken, The Lie, and a few others, and then as he grew to have a deeper appreciation of Scripture, it was easier for him to jettison his evolutionary beliefs.

And he became not only an on -fire Christian, but an on -fire apologist for the Christian faith, to the point where he could answer questions like, why do we have answer, death and suffering?

I mean, last time I saw Charlie, I think he was in a wheelchair dealing with some spinal issues, but he didn't shake his fist at God for what was happening to him.

He knew that we live in a cursed universe, where things were going to get worse as you grew older and older.

And I was privileged to see him, I think three or four years ago, he drove all the way out of here to visit us at the

Creation Museum, understanding perhaps this might be the last opportunity he would have to meet with me and see how

God had blessed us here in northern Kentucky. So, wonderful how

God touched a man who was, I mean, he was a very vocal atheist and loved to challenge

Christians, but he eventually, over time, got those answers that he used to evangelize the lost by answering their questions.

He was a proponent of what we call creation evangelism, using the book of Genesis as a springboard to share your faith, because many of the most asked questions people have about the

Bible, like death and suffering, even the question of racism, where do all the people come from, sanctity of life, many of the answers that we deal with today are addressed in the book of Genesis.

A privilege to get to know him and to know his heart, and he leaves a legacy of some books that we have here in front of us that I hope will far outlive his legacy.

You know, Mark, I think there's a lesson here for the church as well, because when you look at those early years for Charlie, he was in a church, he saw hypocrisy, but he didn't get answers, because so many churches have not taught apologetics, and it's a lesson for the church to make sure that you're teaching apologetics.

I've met so many young people over the years, I've been speaking for 50 years, who said they didn't get those answers in church, and it caused them to doubt the

Bible. And that's one of the things that we do at the Archon County of the Creation Museum through the exhibits, is to give answers.

We're an apologetics ministry, but we're urging churches to make sure you're teaching apologetics, actually at all ages.

And the same for Christian schools. We have our own Christian school here, Answers Academy. We make sure all ages get taught apologetics.

And it's interesting that a book that impacted Charlie in a big way was my book,

The Lie, which is the first book I ever wrote. I wrote that back in 1986, it was published in 1987, and I've had a couple of updates and expansions to it.

So next year will be the 40th anniversary of that book. That book impacted a lot of people, I've received a lot of testimonies, and it's because it deals with the biblical aspects and the importance of the book of Genesis and how foundational it is to all doctrine.

In fact, ultimately, every single biblical doctrine of theology, directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis 1 to 11.

I also deal with the death issue, that there wasn't death before sin, that it was sin that brought death, which then deals with the supposed millions of years issue, that you can't have millions of years of death before sin.

And I know Charlie really loved what was in that book, The Lie, and it impacted him.

I remember him telling me about that. And Chris, I recall too that as Charlie, as a relatively young Christian, but wanted to share his faith, he was listening to atheists and maybe compromising

Christians about the questions they were asking about the reliability of the Bible. He came up with,

I think, ten topics that he mastered, including the one about dinosaurs. He had a whole talk on how dinosaurs are explained by the

Bible. And we've noticed that even with our Creation Museum and in our books, that that's a topic that even

Christians are wondering, where do you put dinosaurs in Scripture? But Charlie had the answer, and I'm pretty sure it's in one of these books that we have in front of us.

So, he was always a student, always learning the newest arguments against creation and for evolution.

He would study them and be ready to counteract them. By the way, you probably will not remember this,

Mark and Ken, because you've been to so many states and cities across the country, but the first time

I discovered Answers in Genesis, I'm not even sure you were using the name Answers in Genesis at the time.

You may have been, I just don't remember. But it was in the 1980s, and there was a creation conference at Smithtown Gospel Tabernacle on Long Island.

Long Island. Yeah, I remember it. And I was there, and I was absolutely blown away with the arguments that you had for dinosaurs living at the same time on this planet with humans and things like that.

I had never heard anyone discuss these matters in such great depth, and I became an immediate fan of yours, and most importantly, a firm believer in a six -day creation.

And I could not get enough, and still to this day I can't get enough of that. That's why

I've had so many young earth creationists on my program. Thank you.

And this is an area that this young earth creationism sadly divides the body of Christ.

Can you tell us, what would be some of the primary reasons why this is not a trivial issue?

Now, I'm not saying that old earth creationists are not our brothers in Christ. I do believe that many of them are.

But why is it still nonetheless such a very important issue, Ken? You know, it's not a salvation issue, as you said, because salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ.

It's faith alone, Christ alone. But it is a biblical authority issue. And one of the things that's important for people to understand is that if you just start from Scripture and read

Scripture, read Genesis as it's written, you don't get the idea of millions of years of death before man.

And that idea comes from outside the Bible. In fact, really in our era, which

I would point to late 1700s, so late 18th century, early 19th century to the present, is really the era that we live in, and it's called a scientific age.

But it's also an age where we saw the rise of naturalism, which is really that you can explain everything without God.

So atheistic ideas. And in the late 1700s, there were atheists and deists who were saying, how do you explain the fossil record by natural processes?

You know, no God, we don't believe the Bible, don't believe in Noah's flood. And so they came up with the idea that they were laid down over millions of years.

And that's where the idea of millions of years came from. It came out of naturalism primarily, and then many

Christian leaders have attempted to add that into the Bible, reinterpret the days of creation, put in a gap between Genesis 1, 1, and 2, or whatever.

But what they're doing is they're taking a belief based on naturalism, which is the religion of man, if you like, man's word -based religion.

It's a religion of naturalism. And they're adding that into the Bible and changing God's Word. Whenever you're starting from outside of Scripture and taking something into Scripture to reinterpret

Scripture, you are attacking biblical authority. You're undermining the authority of the Word of God. And when you've done that for generations, what happens is a lot of those generations start to then question, can you really trust the

Bible if the history in Genesis is not true? And there's theological implications here too, because when you look at the fossil record, it's a record of death, but not just death.

There's diseases in the fossils such as cancer and abscesses and arthritis. And, you know, for instance, in the

Carnegie Museum in Pennsylvania, there's an example of a T. rex bone with a tumor in it, in other words, cancer.

And if you believe in millions of years as a Christian, then all that existed supposedly millions of years before man, but after God made man, he said everything was very good.

Now you've got God calling cancer very good. We've got to remember that Romans 8 .22 says the whole creation groans because of man's sin.

The world we're looking at today is not a world that's gone on for millions of years. It's a world that's suffering from the effects of sin and the curse.

And it's a groaning world. So to blame God for death, suffering, and disease before man, and then

God calls all that very good, is also an attack on the character of God. And it's important to understand, you know, the first death in the

Bible was in Genesis 3, Genesis 3 .21, when God killed animals and clothed Adam and Eve. It's really the first blood sacrifice as a covering for his sin.

Picture what was to come in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away our sin.

And so if there was death millions of years before that event, what has death got to do with why

Jesus died on the cross? What has death got to do with taking away our sin? You know, the

Bible describes death as an enemy. It's an intrusion. And one day, death will be thrown into the lake of fire.

So I think the whole issue of death is such an important one to understand. It's because of sin.

It did not exist before man sinned. Everything was very good. All the animals were vegetarian,

Genesis 1, verse 29 and 30 to start with anyway. The Bible makes that very, very clear.

But the big issue comes down to one of biblical authority. Once you reinterpret

God's word based on man's ideas from outside of scripture, you're unlocking a door, you're unlocking a door that can put you on a slide of a slippery slope through the

Bible as people doubt and then don't believe God's word as they should. And generations have been led to believe that the history in Genesis can't be trusted.

And now, you know what we've seen? Look at what's happened in the church, a catastrophic generational loss. As we see, the number of Generation Z that are now in Protestant churches is less than 5%.

You go back to the 1700s, 70 to 80 % of the population attended church.

And it's all got to do with the undermining of biblical authority. And I believe the whole issue of naturalism being brought into God's word is a big reason for this as we've seen that catastrophic generational loss in the era that we live in.

And Mark, I know that you have to leave us in about five minutes. I want to thank you personally for going out of your way to have

Ken and yourself record that video tribute to Charlie, which was played at the very beginning of the memorial service at Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle.

And that was your idea to do that, and I was very moved by that. And as Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg will tell you, that was a great blessing to the

Liebert family. But thank you so much. Yeah, happy to do that.

I just have a warm spot in my heart for people like Charlie who came from a very atheistic background, and God saved him and completely turned him around 180 degrees.

And so it was my honor to get Ken and myself in the studio here to say thank you,

Charlie, for all those years of toiling away. But I do have one question for Terry when

I talk to her next, the widow. Charlie grew up in Long Island, he had that Long Island accent, spent all those years in North Carolina and then

Pennsylvania, and he still sounded like he was from Long Island. That's right. He just couldn't get rid of that accent.

Well, do you have any final words before you depart from us, Mark? I want to extend an invitation to Terry and the rest of the family to visit us here in Northern Kentucky.

I know where you generally live, in Carlisle, a very historic place, as you said at the very beginning of the program.

I guess you could drive. We're in the Cincinnati area, just south of Cincinnati.

I think you can drive from your area to here in under seven hours. And so I encourage the

Liebert family, their friends, maybe Pastor Jeremy, to think about bringing a group here to tour the

Ark and the museum. You'll need two full days to do both. But I'll be the point of contact to arrange that with Terry and with Jeremy here.

That'd be another way for us to say thank you, Charlie Liebert. The Charlie Liebert Memorial Tour.

We'll do something special. Praise God. By the way, I just want to make sure I give our listeners the website for Answers in Genesis, which

I will be repeating later. It's AnswersinGenesis .org. AnswersinGenesis .org.

But I will be repeating that. But Mark, thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

I know you're a busy man. And when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to continue with some questions for Ken Ham.

And also we'll have Jeremy Brandenburg, Charlie Liebert's pastor, chime in. And don't go away, folks, because we are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, my guests today are Ken Ham, one of the founders of Answers in Genesis, and also

Jeremy Brandenburg, the pastor of the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And we are paying tribute to a dear brother and friend who is now in eternity with Christ, Charlie Lieber, he was a member here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the

Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and he was founder of SixDayCreation .com,

and at one time led conferences for Answers in Genesis.

And Ken, even though I wasn't planning on taking listener questions today, I've got a listener who chimed in in Clifton, New Jersey, Joey, whose questions were so good,

I wanted to read them to you. Joey asks, I have really appreciated your apologetic of biblical authority for many years now, apart from those who advocate intelligent design.

Have you seen any shifts in the more general, secular, scientific community?

That's his first question. Well, I'd have to say that I haven't seen any any shifts in the secular community per se, and you know,

I think the intelligent design movement was a movement that they thought they could reach the secular movement by not mentioning the

Bible and not mentioning who the designer is, but we've always maintained that you cannot divorce what we're advocating from the

Word of God, because that's the foundation for everything, and faith comes by hearing, hearing by the

Word, and it's God's Word that will not return unto him void, and so we should never divorce what we're doing from God's Word.

But I will say this, that when you look at the Ark and the Creation Museum as attractions, 30 % of those who come are non -Christians.

That's one of the reasons we built the attractions, because we recognize we would reach people that you normally wouldn't reach, and people who normally wouldn't go into a church.

And our research indicates that, and we've done this research year after year, and it's really good research and very valid research, we get about 1 .5

million visits to the Creation Museum and the Ark each year. We've had 15 million people come since we opened the

Creation Museum, and then that was in 2007, the Ark was opened in 2016, but the statistics show that about 70 ,000 people a year say that they become

Christians as a result of coming to the Ark and 30 ,000 a year at the

Creation Museum. That's a hundred thousand people a year. So what I would say is this ministry is certainly impacting people, and that's just the attractions, let alone everything else that we do, and I think none of us in various ministries that we're involved in will know who we've really impacted until we get to be with the

Lord. But as far as the secular scientific community and so on,

I mean, their hearts are very, very hard. They're very hard to reach, but what we need to do is be faithful, do the business of the

King until He returns, and that's what we do. And we see people who are being saved and one to the

Lord, and we've got to remember we're on the narrow road, and the broad way will always be the broad way. So there'll always be a majority who do not stand with us, and that doesn't matter, because we just need to be faithful in proclaiming the truth of God's Word and the gospel.

Now, you say that there hasn't been any shift in the secular scientific community that you've observed, but what about the allegiance in the secular scientific community to Darwinianism or Darwinism?

Well, I think I've read a lot of articles on that that seem to indicate there's a lot of people who are questioning that and certainly recognize there's problems with it.

But to question it or to say there's something else behind the universe is one thing, but to actually say that, hey, we're going to stand on God's Word, the

Bible, and trust the God of creation, that's a whole different area.

And Joey's second question is, from the perspective of scientific evidence, which evidences do you tend to most use these days for young earth?

Well, obviously, number one is the Bible. I mean, that is evidence, right? We have it with us.

It's God's Word, God's written Word. And, you know, one of the things I always explain to people is that, you know, as fallible sinful human beings, we don't know everything.

We know nothing compared to what God knows. We need to learn the lesson of Job there in regard to that.

And so you can't use evidence as proof, because all evidence is interpreted. What you can use is use observational science to confirm

God's Word, but you can't use that to prove that. You can't use evidence to prove a young earth.

But you can show that there's a lot of things that actually contradict the idea of billions of years.

One of my favorite ones we have at the Ark Encounter, it's on the third deck, it's in the Ice Age Exhibit, when

I debated Bill Nye at the Creation Museum in 2014. I saw that. Yeah, that's been seen by over 25 million people now, that debate.

And one of the things he did was mock me for believing in a young earth, because he said, and by the way, the reason

I believe in a young earth, because I start from Scripture, God made everything in six days. Those are six ordinary days, and it's obvious from the

Hebrew language that they are. And then he made Adam on day six, and then he gives us all those genealogies, saying

Genesis 5, we can get to the time of Abraham, Abraham to the coming of Christ, the babe in a manger, and then from there to the present, adds up to about 6 ,000 years.

And that's why I take the stand on 6 ,000 years, because I start from Scripture. But at the debate,

Bill Nye mocked me and said, we drill down through the ice in the Arctic, and we get all these layers, and those layers are dated to show hundreds of thousands of years.

How can you believe in 6 ,000 years when the ice cores from the Arctic show hundreds of thousands of years of layers?

And so we've got an exhibit at the Ark on the Third Deck, where we talk about those ice layers, and show people that in 1942, there were some planes that ran out of fuel towards the end of the war.

There were six fighters and two bombers, and they landed them on the ice in Greenland, just left the planes there and walked away from them.

And they went back a number of years later to try to find them, and they couldn't find them, and had to end up using ground -penetrating radar and so on.

So 46 years after those planes were landed, they found them, but they were three miles from the original location, buried 250 feet deep in the ice.

That obviously did not take hundreds of thousands of years. That took 46 years.

And so there's an example that just totally contradicts what the secularists are saying.

And you know, there's many other things like that. We can point to when they dated the rock at Mount St.

Helens. You know, when the lava stopped flowing, it formed a dome and there have been scientists who have dated the rock in that dome using potassium -argon dating.

Well, we know when that rock formed, it was in the 1980s. And in the 1990s, when it was sampled, they got a range of dates up to a couple of million years old.

And the reason is because with potassium -argon dating, there's argon that's already in the mantle that comes up into the rock, and so it makes it look old, if you understand the method, when it's not old.

And so, you know, there's so many things like that that we can look at. But that doesn't prove the young earth.

All that does is confirm that the millions of years doesn't make sense, and all dating methods have assumptions.

Ultimately, there's only one infallible dating method, and that is the Word of God. Now, Charlie, and by the way,

Pastor Jeremy, you can feel free to chime in with a question anytime if you'd like to. I know that you're going to be on for the full hour when

Ken has to leave, but Charlie was a grassroots guy who started this sixdaycreation .com

ministry due to his passion and knowledge of the whole argumentation and apologetic for Six -Day

Creation. Do you have any counsel recommendations on how

Christians listening—and I do have a global audience—who might want to make a difference in their own community and even in their own congregation to, in a more powerful and passionate way, proclaim the truths of Six -Day

Creation that may be getting slid to the back of the shelf, as it were, in priority of importance in their local church?

Perhaps not intentionally, but their pastor perhaps is just not a scientist or does not have the the knowledge that you do about how to defend this.

How do you counsel and advise young Christians here—they might not even be themselves young—but

Christians who want to do what Charlie did and start like a grassroots movement to promote these precious truths?

Well, I think the first thing people need to understand, you know, it's interesting, Charlie was impacted by my book,

The Lie, and my book, The Lie, really deals with the foundational issues of Genesis. We first of all got to understand what it means to have a

Christian worldview. We need to understand worldview, because most people I find don't understand worldview at all, and in most,

I'd say in a lot of churches, they're really not taught what worldview is and what it means to have a true

Christian worldview. For many people, they tend to think that Christian worldview is what

I would refer to as Bible integration. In other words, they add Bible verses to their thinking.

You know, there's a lot of Christian schools that do that, for instance. They use secular textbooks and they say, oh, we add the

Bible in, but that doesn't make a Christian. To make a Christian, you've got to start from God's Word.

And the first thing is that everyone needs to understand, as a Christian, ultimately there's only two foundations for your worldview—God's

Word, man's Word. I mean, that's really what started in Genesis 3, the devil saying, oh, you know, you can interpret the evidence for yourself.

You decide for yourself. You be like God. Did God really say, don't trust God's Word? Whereas God had said, don't do this.

In other words, take my interpretation of the evidence. Don't eat that fruit. So obey

God's Word. And that battle is the battle that we're in. We're in a foundational battle. It's a foundational battle of God's Word versus man's

Word. And on those two foundations, you build two different worldviews—that is, the

Christian worldview or the secular worldview. And so what we have got to understand as Christians, what it means to have a true

Christian worldview, and to understand where the secularist worldview comes from.

Because a lot of Christians tend to argue very much at the worldview level, and it becomes an emotional clash, particularly in a culture where you've got, you know, moral relativism is now permeating the culture, where it's become the dominant worldview of our culture.

And so when you oppose that, it becomes a very emotional clash, and you'll be accused of intolerance and hate speech, and you'll be accused now, even now, of violence, because words have been defined as violence.

You've got to learn to think foundationally, and then you've got to learn to argue foundationally.

You know, I don't tend to use this term when I'm talking to general audiences, but we're really talking about arguing presuppositionally and understanding where our thinking needs to come from.

And then the key for a Christian is to understand that Genesis 1 to 11 is actually the foundation for everything.

There's nothing it's not the foundation for. And so once you understand the key, Genesis 1 to 11 is the foundation, you then have a worldview to deal with any issue.

You can have answers for everything, it's just you might know all the details, but you'll have a big -picture answer.

You know, like when it comes to racism or dealing with races, well, we start from Scripture, there was one man and one woman to start with,

Adam and Eve were all descendants of Adam and Eve, so there's only one race. There are different people groups because of the

Tower of Babel, but there are no different races biologically. And so then you have the right worldview to be able to start to deal with that issue.

When it comes to issues of gay marriage or issues of transgender, you have to start from Genesis 1 to 11.

God made man male and female, Genesis 1 .27. And so there's only two genders, two biological sexes, and Genesis 2 .24,

after God made man from dust and woman from his side, he said, therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife, and there'll be one flesh, which is the creation of marriage.

So marriage comes from Scripture. And so every single biblical doctrine of theology, directly or indirectly, is founded in Genesis 1 to 11.

Once people understand that, it's a key to then being able to say, now

I know where my thinking starts from, now I can build the right way of thinking, now when

I'm talking to somebody about the Christian faith, I've got to remember they've got a different foundation and they'll have a different worldview, so I need them to start to question their foundation.

So you've got to direct the questions down there. And the trouble is, I find that a lot of Christian leaders, because they've compromised with evolution, millions of years, they've added that in the

Scripture, reinterpreted the days, or promoted theistic evolution or progressive creation or the gap theory or whatever it happens to be, then most people are not being taught

Genesis 1 to 11 as literal history, so they don't have that foundation to then know why they believe what they do and know how to defend the

Christian faith. So the key is really understanding how foundational

Genesis 1 to 11 is to everything, and that's what they need to challenge others in the church concerning that, and to be able to teach them that.

Now, isn't the idea that those who oppose the

Bible, those who oppose Christianity, at least biblical Christianity, that we are just another form of animal, doesn't that have catastrophic ramifications and even subsequent problems, to say the least, that have polluted society?

Because when you reach the point when you consider humans as just a higher form of animal—in fact, some animal activists would even consider that we're not a higher form at all—but isn't this very dangerous and sinister?

Well, let me give you one practical example here to illustrate what you're saying.

Certainly, because of the evolutionary teaching, we're taught that man evolved from animals, so man is just a higher animal, so to speak.

But not only that, in our classification system, we have six kingdoms of life, primarily, and one of those kingdoms is called the animal kingdom.

And man is put in the animal kingdom because man has a body like a mammal's body. Now, even that is a biblical worldview perspective.

If you use the criterion made in the image of God, in Genesis 127, God made man in the image of God, male and female, so two genders, but he's made in God's image.

And we're told when God made the animals, he said, let the earth bring forth the animals.

When he made man, he said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let him have dominion over the animals.

So really, from a biblical worldview perspective, man should be separated out. I know they put man in the animal kingdom because they have a body like a mammal's body, but we're made in the image of God.

We're unique. We're special, because Jesus died for man, not for the animals, really.

He became a man. He became one of us, one of the human family, to die for the human family.

Now, I say that because we need to understand this in regard to the abortion issue, because the more you have young people taught they're just animals,

I've had them actually say to me, get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. What's the difference? We're of no value.

We're just an animal. And you know, we're here in northern Kentucky, and just across the river, the

Ohio River, you've got the Cincinnati Zoo, which is considered one of the leading zoos in America.

And if you go and visit the apes and the chimps, there's a big sign as you go into there saying, you're visiting your family.

They actually have a big sign. It's all in the family. And then the sign says that there's no sharp distinction between humans and apes.

They say there's no sharp line at all, although when you go to visit them, there's a big sharp line.

It's a big fence. You're not allowed to go beyond. So there is a sharp line. And they say that we're all just animals.

There's nothing special about humans. Imagine what that's doing to families being impacted by that.

And so many people don't understand that that we're made in the image of God, and we're made in the image of God right from fertilization.

Because when you have fertilization, you've got DNA from the male, DNA from the female, fertilization, a unique combination of information, then no new information is added as that cell then builds our body.

And we're made in the image of God. So right from fertilization, we're made in the image of God, which means abortion is killing a human being made in the image of God, not from six weeks, not from first breath, but from fertilization.

And so there are great ramifications here when people are just told we're just animals instead of no, we're special, we're created by God, we're made in his image.

So that has great bearing on how you would view abortion and so on. Yes, I don't know what you think of the reported conversion to Christianity of the late

Jeffrey Dahmer, the serial killer that was murdered in prison. But he, when he was being interviewed,

I think it might have even been in a secular television program. But he said the reason why he found it so easy to eventually begin murdering humans is that he was convinced that they were just an animal life.

And there was no great consequence to killing just another animal, as he had been killing animals most of his childhood.

A warning sign to all parents out there about children who like torturing and killing animals.

But what do you make of that? I mean, I'm not saying that that gives

Jeffrey Dahmer an excuse for what he did. But do you think that that's a realistic assumption that when given over to Satan, a person is capable of anything when they believe that humans are just animals?

You know, the Bible says, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And, you know, what you believe concerning who you are, where you came from has great bearing on your worldview and your purpose and meaning in life and how you see others as well.

And we've got to understand that evil philosophies have evil fruits. I mean, if you think about Darwinian evolution, it was actually used to justify killing the

Australian Aboriginal people. And so back in the 1800s, there were scientists who sent people to Australia with instructions on how to kill the

Aboriginal people, to skin them and to boil up their skulls, all for specimens for museums, all in the name of evolution.

Because in Darwin's book, The Descent of Man, that was written 12 years after the origin of the species, in The Descent of Man, Darwin said basically that the

Australian Aboriginal people were closest to the apes. So they were known as the missing links in evolutionary history.

And so they were closest to the apes and they wanted them as specimens. And so they set out to especially get specimens of Australian Aboriginal people, which is a very, very sad part of Australia's history.

Not only that, in Australia, there used to be a rule, a government policy, that when an

Australian Aboriginal married a non -Aboriginal, that the child was considered more advanced than the

Aboriginal parent. And so they were forcibly taken away and put in foster homes. There's the evil fruit of an evil philosophy.

Now, that's just a couple of examples right there. The point is, you know, remember, the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, right?

There's non -righteousness at one. There's no neutrality. You're either for Christ or against. You gather or scatter.

You walk in light or darkness. And so we can't look on people and think, you know, oh, they're just, people are just innocent and they're neutral and so on.

No, they are not. And when you are not clothed in the righteousness of the

Lord Jesus Christ, and you let your sin nature master over you, man does evil things.

Look at what Hitler did. Look at what Margaret Sanger did in founding Planned Parenthood because of her belief in evolution.

And therefore, out of that comes her worldview in regard to eugenics and so on. And so we see the evil fruits of that evil philosophy.

And, you know, think about the fact that really a Darwinian evolution fuels a particular type of racism and certainly has done, and it's a foundation for such.

Yet it's protected by politicians in libraries, in schools, and yet it's one of the most racist philosophies on the planet.

Yeah, you just mentioned earlier the title of one of Darwin's classic works,

On the Origin of the Species, but the full title, as you know, was

On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection on the Preservation of Favored Races in the

Struggle for Life. Yeah, and there the favored races actually referred to animals because the origin of species is about animals.

And back then the term races was used for subspecies of animals. But at the end of the book, at the end of The Origin of Species, Darwin said in the future he intended on applying this to man.

You know, in Victorian England, he wasn't going to come right out and apply it to man immediately because, you know, you had all sorts of influences from the

Bible and so on. And so it's sort of like an indoctrination process.

It's indoctrinate them in evolutionary ideas and animals first. Then, 12 years later, he published the book

The Descent of Man, where he applied it to man. And then you have lower races and higher races and primitive races and advanced races.

And that's what fueled eugenics. Actually, Hitler used

Darwin's ideas to justify what he did to the gypsies, to the Jews, to people who had disabilities and all sorts of things to produce that so -called

Aryan race, that super race. But that was the same as Margaret Sanger. You know, she used evolutionary ideas to justify, you know, founding

Planned Parenthood so that they could stop those that they didn't think should have children having children.

And today, you know, up to, what, 70 percent of Planned Parenthood officers are in areas consistent with their philosophy,

Margaret Sanger's philosophy of who should have children and who shouldn't and so on. We're seeing the evil fruits of an evil philosophy.

It's permeated our culture. And it's sad when so many Christian leaders have adopted evolutionary ideas and ignored

Genesis 1 to 11 and undermined the authority of the Word of God. And I believe they're going to have to give an account to God.

That's why Scripture says, don't be many teachers. You're going to bear a strict condemnation, a strict judgment for any of us who are teachers who impact others.

Well, Ken, thank you so much for being on the program today. I know that you also had to leave early, and I look forward to many future return visits from you.

And I want to remind our listeners that the website for Answers in Genesis is on Genesis .org.

And thank you again for that wonderful tribute to Charlie Liebert that you and Mark Loy created on a video for the memorial service that took place not long ago for Charlie.

Thank you so much for doing that. Our pleasure. And just to reiterate what Mark said, we'd love to see you come up here and see the family come up here and show them that the ark in the

Croatian Museum as a sort of tribute to Charlie. So thanks a lot. Amen. Well, God bless you, brother.

We're going to our midway break right now, and when we come back, we are going to be featuring exclusively

Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg, pastor of the

Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who also was

Charlie Liebert's pastor after he moved from Greensboro, North Carolina to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And I'm looking forward to our conversation. So please do not go away. We will be right back after these messages.

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Now we are joined again by Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who was Charlie's pastor while he lived here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, after moving from Greensboro, North Carolina.

It is a joy and a privilege to have you on the program, Pastor Jeremy. Thanks for having me back,

Chris. I miss Charlie. I was thankful that I got to know him.

And I thank you for thanking Mark and Ken Ham, because it really was a special tribute that they sent.

And you know, when you get to know somebody like I did with Charlie later in life, you don't meet them in the prime, right?

You don't meet them in their active years when they—you hear about the things they did and you're seeing them slow down.

But Charlie was an active, active man, and he was active, like we just talked about, with sharing his faith, but also sharing the biblical truth of creation.

And that was really wonderful for Ken Ham and Mark Lloyd to do that. In case our listeners are wondering,

Charlie went home to be with the Lord that he so faithfully served for so many years on Friday, March 27th of this year, 2026, and he was 84 years old.

He had been married to his precious wife, Terry, for 57 years.

And a humorous story that I have to tell briefly.

When I was at a Christian Businessmen's Connection meeting, fundraising dinner,

Charlie was the keynote speaker at this particular event, and I was sitting at the table with his wife,

Terry. And I said to Terry, Hey, Terry, did you know that Charlie and I both went to Amityville Memorial High School?

And she said, Oh, did you graduate together? I said, Terry, he's 20 years older than me.

And she said, Well, I don't know. So I considered seriously getting plastic surgery after that.

But anyway, tell us about your first encounter that you can remember with Charlie and those things that stand out as most endearing and precious and memorable to you.

Yes. So I remember distinctly that Charlie, he's a very outgoing man, and when

I came to the church, they had basically opened it up for anyone who wanted to meet with me. This is when

I was still an applicant candidate, and Charlie and Terry were some of the first people that I met with.

And, you know, when you meet them, it's a wonderful thing with—not every Christian is this way, and that's okay—but

Charlie and Terry are just very out front with their faith, and Charlie loves to tell his testimony.

And it's a way that you establish a connection with someone as a Christian. And that's the way

I met Charlie is the way I knew him until the end of his life. And it's a wonderful testimony to see someone who, you know, knew the

Lord, loved the Lord, and we all are still being sanctified.

And that was true of Charlie also, but he continued to walk with Christ. And, you know,

I was his pastor when he experienced some really serious suffering and sorrow with the death of his son.

And so I met him first at the church. He had questions, of course, and I appreciated that.

You know, he wanted to know what I believed, and I appreciated the fact that he was so strong on creation.

But, you know, one of the things that occurred to me as I was listening to Ken Ham and Mark Loy is,

I think there's a logical and very natural overlap between someone like Charlie who comes to faith in a pretty dramatic way, and, you know, has this experience of new creation life, where his new life in Christ was so radically different than his old life, that to me, it seems like there's a logical and a natural overlap with, if this is the

God who saved me, it's not a far leap at all to understand and believe that, yeah, this same

God created the world in a very dramatic and radical way, and they did it over the space of six days.

It wasn't this, you know, amorphous, long, drawn -out thing that just took forever, and we really don't, you know, when we say

God created, what do we mean by that? Did he really create, or was it evolution? And Charlie's life was dramatically different from the time that he met

Jesus Christ, and I think that affected his whole view of everything, and especially the way he approached the

Scripture. Yes, you mentioned something that strikes me as one of the most impressive things about Charlie, because I think it's a rare thing, even amongst born -again believers.

Charlie's son, an adult, died. This was at a point when

I already had known him very well for years. Now, I don't know how he grieved privately behind closed doors, but when he was in public, and when he was in my company, the trust that he had in God—unwavering trust that, will not the judge of all the earth do what is right ?—was

something that was so powerful to me, and had such a great impact upon me, because I don't handle trials in life that are infinitely less serious than that, as well as Charlie did, with such a monumental occurrence in his life.

I've heard a saying that I'm sure is typically true, that one of the most agonizing trials any parent could ever experience is outliving one of their children.

His unwavering faith in God shone brightly during that period, did it not?

Yes, it did. There's a lot of things we could say about that.

The thing we should say, first and foremost, is the grace of God to Charlie and Terry. The Lord was with them through that, and I think anyone listening to this program should know that God, He's a gracious God, and He's gracious to us, especially in our suffering.

Whatever the Lord has ordained for your life, yes, God allows and permits very painful things to happen, but He does it to show us how much

He loves us and to show His power in bringing us out of it. But I'd also say this, that Charlie and Terry, they walked with the

Lord for many years. One of the things that I take away from just having known

Charlie and been his friend and his pastor is, it really matters how we live. The Bible says, if we sow to the flesh, we're going to reap corruption.

If we sow to the Spirit, we're going to reap eternal life. Now, obviously, we understand that in the context of everything the

Bible says, but Charlie was someone who loved the Lord, and after he became a Christian, his life was different, and he really applied himself to understanding the gospel and understanding the

Word and also teaching the Word, and that really matters because it's the kind of things that steady you when you're going through terrible suffering and especially when you yourself are approaching death.

Yes. Even though Charlie was wheelchair -bound at this point in his life,

I was still shocked that he had passed. I had seen him in the nursing home about a month before he died, and even though he was in a wheelchair, he was just beaming with smiles and laughter and joy.

He had a very uncomfortable relationship with a roommate in the nursing home, and the way that he was expressing the whole situation, the man had even put a yellow tape on the rug to divide his area from Charlie's and demanded that Charlie never cross that line, and Charlie just seemed to be taking it in stride.

Unless he was hiding his inner feelings masterfully, like an

Academy Award -winning actor, he was handling that a lot more graciously than I would have.

I can't even imagine being in a situation like that when I know I'm going to be spending the remaining years

I have on this planet with a human being like that that doesn't even want me to cross the line that he has created in the room.

Do you have anything to say about that aspect of Charlie's being able to rejoice in all things, as it were?

I had the same observation. Physically, he wasn't doing great, but he just persevered, and he was able to endure through.

He experienced quite a bit of suffering at the end. I don't know how Terry wants me to share about this, but they had an episode with bedbugs, and Charlie was in isolation for weeks.

When I would go and visit him, he was happy to see me. He was very talkative.

If that was me, I'd be sitting there complaining and groaning about getting out. He was

Charlie to the end. Even in the nursing home, he wanted to be a part of everything. He would go to the exercise classes.

He would go to all the activities that they had. That was just who he was.

And he didn't allow the fact that he was in the nursing home to—he didn't give in to discouragement.

That's the way you could put it. By the way, folks, if you're wondering about the bedbug story, that was a problem of the nursing home.

This was not Charlie and Terry's own apartment. This was when

Charlie was in a separate room due to health reasons, and it was an employee,

I believe, that unfortunately unintentionally introduced the bedbugs to the nursing home.

So this was nothing due to the fault of Charlie or Terry. Yeah, they suffered.

They suffered well. And he was an extremely gregarious man and joined an organization called

Toastmasters that helps people develop their skills in public speaking.

And I went to one of his meetings at his invitation and heard him speak publicly, and he really loved being a witness for Christ, even in secular events and organizations like Toastmasters.

It was just refreshing to see what a joyful ambassador for Christ he was.

Yeah, that's a great point about who Charlie was, too, that he was comfortable with all kinds of people.

And, you know, I think if most of us were honest, we would say, yeah, we're actually not that—we're comfortable with people who are, you know, in our orbit, in our sphere, like us, but Charlie was really—and the other thing

I would say about Charlie is he wasn't truly a person like you're saying. He loved kids.

He did stuff with my kids. I mean, he was just a very warm -hearted and loving man.

I'm thankful to have known him, and it leaves a legacy of faith, for sure.

What counsel do you have for perhaps young men in ministry about developing friendships with members of your congregation?

You and Charlie had developed a close friendship, and you actually admitted in the memorial service that friendships are not something that are egalitarian.

You don't have the same friendship or as close a friendship with every single person in your congregation where you are the under -shepherd.

But this is an important thing, though, is it not, for pastors to develop friendships with congregants?

I think it's really important, and, you know, part of the truth with Charlie and Terry is they wanted to get to know me, so that made it a lot easier.

And, you know, I will also say it's easier to make time for people that you actually enjoy talking to, and, you know,

Charlie would talk about all kinds of things. He had a wide number of things he was interested in.

But, yeah, there's, you know, part of it is, okay, Charlie was quite a bit older than me, but he didn't let that be an obstacle to us getting to know each other.

And, you know, at some point, you make a decision, are you going to be open with this person?

And that's how you build a connection, right? And so I was, I think

I mentioned at Charlie's memorial service that part of the just providential nature of us getting to know each other was

Charlie and Terry's son tragically passed away, and then my father passed away.

And so, you know, here I am, the pastor, trying to minister to them, and they're ministering to me.

And so we really, we shared our joys, and I really enjoyed Charlie's fellowship and his friendship, but we also shared our sorrows.

And I think it just meant so much to me to see the way he was clinging to the

Lord, and that was a comfort to me. And I was thankful to be able to minister to them, but I was also thankful to allow them to minister to me.

So the advice I would give is, well, you know, obviously the church, you can't just have a church of older people.

We need young families. We need, you know, we talk about diversity. The healthy diversity that every church needs is younger people, middle -aged people, retirement people, elderly people, and we should be trying to cultivate relationships all across.

You know, isn't it a tremendous testimony of God's grace and His goodness to His people across all generations when you can have,

I know stories of people in our own denomination that, you know, older folks, I would say it takes effort from both sides, right?

Because you have older folks who reach out to younger folks, and then you have this, in God's kindness, you have this tremendous gift of having had a relationship with someone who you knew as the younger person in their older years.

And then what does that do? Well, that shapes the way you're going to be as an older person, because you remember, oh, this person in our church reached out to me.

They, you know, made the effort to get to know me. And as someone blesses you in that way, you can't help but try to be that kind of person yourself as you're older.

So make the effort to get to know people in your church. And I would imagine that there were things about Charlie, since he was so brilliant and knowledgeable in the area of creation science and so on, that there were ways in which he challenged you, even, in some of the ways that you were thinking.

And I'm sure that you learned something from him. And that is not always easy for pastors to learn from those that they themselves are undershepherding, that are under their care, that they are the ones teaching and discipling and seeking to nurture in the faith.

And yet, pastors have to be ready to even learn from their congregants, don't they? Yes, absolutely.

You know, there's the special office, but there's also the general office of believer.

And I would say Charlie, you know, Charlie was an elder, so he was an officer in the church. But Charlie was also a believer and had the general office, and he really put all of his gifts and graces to work and applied himself.

And you're taught as a pastor just by the example of your church members and how they seek to follow the

Lord in their daily lives. And Charlie was someone who was always searching the scriptures.

He was seeking to learn. He was a teacher, but you know what? He was also a learner until the end of his life.

And that was a really incredible thing to see and be impacted by his example in that.

Yes, and he was definitely a diehard Presbyterian, so much so that when he moved from Greensboro, North Carolina, to Carlisle, even though his beloved daughter and son -in -law and grandchildren are members of a

Baptist church, he sought out membership in a Presbyterian church, and specifically an

Orthodox Presbyterian church. He was a very dedicated Presbyterian, wasn't he?

Yes, he was. And you know, I think part of that—we never really talked about that in detail, actually, because I think part of it was obvious that he matured in his faith.

And he talks about this in his books and his testimony. He very quickly, within a matter of only a few years, was asked to serve as a deacon and then as an elder.

But I think part of his love for the Presbyterian church was that that's the church that he matured in.

That's the church where people really loved him well, loved Terry well. And so in that sense, it's not really surprised—his fidelity, his faithfulness.

And I think it also comes out of the fact that the church as Charlie came out of.

And so when he found a church that was faithfully teaching the Bible, you know, he held on and he remained loyal.

So yeah, he loved the church too.

I mean, he loved to be in church. That's another thing that I would say about Charlie and Terry is, until Charlie could no longer attend worship—and even when he couldn't attend, he was watching online—but he was in church.

He loved to be in church. He loved to be with God's people. He loved to sit under the Word. He loved to sing.

He loved to worship. And as a pastor, of course, that's something

I'm grateful for. Amen. When we come back from our final break, we're even going to learn about some things that surprised me about Charlie's heritage.

I had not known that he has Jewish ancestry who escaped the death of the

Holocaust in Germany. And I would like to have our pastor guest here explain a little bit of those details when we return.

And so please don't go away. We are going to be returning momentarily after these words from our sponsors with more of our tribute to the late

Charlie Liebert. Please don't go away. As I have.

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I look forward to seeing you on Thursday, October 1st, 2026, at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Well, we are now back with my guest today,

Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

We have been paying tribute to the late Charlie Liebert, a dear friend of both of ours.

Charlie had been a guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio a number of times, as well as a co -host on occasion, and he will certainly be missed.

One of the things that I loved about Charlie is that he enthusiastically looked forward to my pastors' luncheons and would be typically one of the very first people to arrive in the building, and he would be all set up right by the door with the paper that he had already had printed out for people to sign in on the registration list, and therefore to make life easier for me when

I wanted to keep inviting people who attended to my future events.

He was just a precious brother. I really was saddened when he could no longer attend the pastors' luncheons due to his health and lack of mobility, being wheelchair -bound.

But before the break, I had mentioned that he is the progeny of Jews who escaped persecution in the

Holocaust, and if you could tell me what you know about that, Jeremy. Yes, these stories are in Charlie's books, and the book

I'm holding is Rosemarie Kristallnacht Transformation. My twice -Jewish aunt survives the

Holocaust by becoming a Gentile cousin and misleading the Gestapo. So Charlie's dad, when he came to America, he didn't go by his

German name, I don't think. I think he was called Joe, because his German name is Joachim.

So Charlie's dad was Joachim Peter Julius Liebert, and he was one of three children, his sister

Rosemarie, his other sister Ava. Their parents were Felix and Helen.

Felix was a German Jew, and Helen was a French -German aristocrat.

Helen's maiden name was Quant, and she was Lutheran. So Felix and Helen fall in love, they get married, and the families are furious.

Neither one is happy. In his book, Charlie says the

Liebert side, they think that they're Lutheran. The Quant side says, yeah, you're

Jewish now. But Charlie's dad was one of three children, and in this book, tells the story of—so obviously, eventually, his own dad makes it to America.

Charlie grows up in Amityville, but he has this incredible story of his aunt,

Rosemarie, and how she survives the Holocaust, the persecution, and then the mass extermination of the

Jews by Hitler and the Third Reich. Without trying to tell the whole story, it would take too much time, but one of the family members, one of the uncles, had a jewelry store, and on Kristallnacht, as you know, the

SS, the Nazis, went around and rounded up Jews, smashed

Jewish businesses, vandalized. It was just a night of violence.

And so I think at that point, her uncles disappear, but Rosemarie is not caught.

And so she ends up going back to this jewelry store and finding basically jewels that they had stashed in the event that something like that happened.

Rosemarie is able to assume—this is what's crazy, it sounds like it's from a movie—but she was able to assume the identity of a cousin from the

Kwan side of the family, the non -Jewish, they were not Jews. In this crazy scheme, she's able to assume the identity of a family member that apparently had died in Africa, and so there was no record of her death.

It's really an incredible story, and he captures it in his book. But yeah, so Charlie's father was

Jewish, and he always had a heart for the

Jews. I don't know if Charlie was really ever, you know, in a concerted way actively engaged with outrage to the

Jewish community, but he always cared about the Jews, talked about the Jews, and I think that's a really important point, too, for today, because it seems like anti -Semitism is increasing everywhere.

Yeah, I mean, if you're a Jew who's rejected Christ, that's really bad, but Jesus loved the

Jews. Jesus was, humanly speaking, Jewish. And so I think another thing that I take from Charlie's life is a reminder that, yeah, we should be reaching out to the

Jews with the Gospels for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. Yes, there is a ministry in New York called

Chosen People Ministries, and since it is really under the leadership and has been for years under the leadership of our dispensationalist brethren, primarily, a lot of people don't realize that Chosen People Ministries was born out of Presbyterian ministers in Brooklyn, New York, evangelizing the

Jews there and leading, by God's sovereign grace, a rabbi to Christ.

And he is the one that founded that ministry. So, well, I want you in the couple of minutes that we have left to really just unburden your heart to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our precious brother now with the

Lord, Charlie Liebert. Well, thank you, Chris. I could think of no more fitting way to do that than to share the

Gospel. And I'll reference, I won't read it, but I'll reference a story in Charlie's book,

Atheism is an Oxymoron. He tells the story of this woman who's from Russia.

She's from St. Petersburg, and she was apparently part of a communist family, and so they had access to better things.

But the story is basically, she comes to America and she joins this American family, and they take her to a

Harris Teeter Superstore. You ever been to a Harris Teeter? Yeah, a

Harris Teeter Superstore in Greensboro. So this is how Charlie would have known. It was in the 1980s.

So think about how much things have changed from the 1980s. But the family takes this girl, former communist, into this grocery store, and she sees the abundance of everything.

And she says, I can just go and take it to buy it? And they say, yeah.

And she actually started crying in the grocery store. And that's not really the point of the story in the book, but I read that story as I was looking at Charlie's books, and I thought, you know, it's not such a depiction of the gospel.

But the gospel is even better, because in the grace of God, sin is slavery.

Jesus said, if you sin, you're a slave to sin. In the gospel, we come with all of our misery, all of our impoverishment, and we walk into the heavenly throne room, and we receive grace upon grace through Jesus Christ.

We come, and we just receive. And it's all there, free. It wasn't free for Jesus. Jesus had to die the gruesome and agonizing death of the cross.

But now, like Charlie Liebert experienced, like I experienced, like you experienced, when we come to Christ, we're coming to the one who didn't come into this world to put burdens on us, but to lift burdens off of us and to give us eternal life.

And so, if there's anybody listening today who does not know the

Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, then there's no better time than today to come and to receive him, and to believe in his name, and to be free from all your sin, and to know the joy of your master and king,

Jesus Christ. So, I was blessed to know Charlie, and I'm encouraged and grateful to know by faith that he's in the presence of Jesus Christ right now.

And if anybody wants to get in contact with Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg, the website for Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is redeemeropc .org.

I want to thank you so much, brother, for being such a wonderful guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater