Dividing Line/Apologia Radio MashUp Reviewing the Mahler Debate and Related Topics/Issues

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May 22, 2025

Joined Luke and Zach from Apologia Radio for a "mashup" show today to go over the Mahler debate and related issues. We ended up talking about the future, the state of the church, and a lot more! Love chatting with my brothers, and hope you enjoy the result!

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00:29: Well, greetings and welcome to both the dividing line and the Apologia radio program
00:36: With Luke and Zach who are going to be in a split screen with me in like three seconds less than three seconds
00:42: There they are. That's an unusual direction. Can Luke what's in the middle of the of the of the desk there?
00:49: Our battle axes your battle axes. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.
00:55: I just custom Custom battle. Yeah, and where's my area for a radio show? Where's yours?
01:01: Yeah We got to ask Bill rapier about that. I bet he'll get you one. He gave us one It says apology on the spine.
01:06: Oh, we have a part. We have a partnership with him You go to amtechblades .com put apology in the coupon code and get 5 % off your ordering home.
01:13: That's 5 % to end abortion now There you go That's that's that's great and wonderful now
01:20: Somebody's missing you know people need to understand that Y 'all have a rule and The the rule is that all the pastors except me
01:35: Have to take a sabbatical each year we've tried to make you Hasn't worked very well, so I guess
01:47: Jeff we're not going to mention where Jeff is but Jeff is away and That's one of the reasons why
01:53: I Will be preaching on Sunday I'm not sure if you've seen but I'm gonna be preaching.
01:59: I'm gonna be preaching on mark chapter 8 and Jesus calls the crowds to himself and says if you'll follow me
02:08: You have to deny yourself take up the cross and follow me. So yeah, it's You know, it's not
02:14: Proverbs, but it's about as rich of wisdom as you're gonna get anywhere. So Yeah, yeah, yeah if I can't preach that one
02:23: I might as well might as well give up but anyway great day job By the way,
02:29: Zach, I have I do need to say I have something against you before we start talking about it You're my wife's favorite preacher.
02:38: Oh, it's a good thing. Oh, that's nice. I mean, I mean humbling
02:43: She'll say some nice things about Jeff once in a while, especially when he's like sort of on time I almost never says anything nice about me, but she just loves your preaching.
02:54: She just thinks you're great. So Way to go. I'd like to hear those positive things, but I don't get to you got time
03:04: Thanks, yeah Not much Not not much I was gonna say
03:11: I think with this mashup show our median age is about 200 I being the
03:18: Most youthful, yes, I just want everybody to know this is what
03:23: I have to put up with at apology all the time, but I'm normally yeah
03:29: Well and rich is on the other side of the window going why why am I chopped meat or something? But he's older than I am so he can't really say much about stuff like this
03:38: But I'm I'm just I'm just waiting for all the old man stuff to start taking
03:44: Chopping Luke down a little bit at a time and it's coming. It's happening and I'll just be sitting there going And you love everything.
03:51: It's okay. I Accept that it's coming. It's a gun. I accept it. Yep. So anyway
03:57: You all were the ones that contacted us and said hey Let's let's put the programs together on on Thursday and Let's talk about what happened a week ago now
04:11: Of course, I talked about a bit on the program on Tuesday just from my perspective, but yeah You all will probably recall that when
04:19: I Sort of early announced the upcoming debate during The service actually,
04:28: I think I was about to do the catechism question or something. But anyway there was when
04:33: I gave the thesis statement The Holy Spirit cannot sanctify is not able to sanctify a black person as much as a white person there was a gasp and All across the congregation.
04:48: I mean you could just you could you could hear it. You could feel it That's how most
04:53: Christians respond. Yeah, I say and some laughter, but yeah, I'm sorry and some laughter.
04:59: But yes Yeah, yeah, there was there was some people like no, you're not really being serious. Is it?
05:04: Yeah. Yeah, actually I am being First reaction. Yeah, sadly But then there was also serious stuff, you know,
05:13: I think was it the next day Luke or something? We got that email from someone in the congregation very thankful that yes
05:19: We were we're gonna be doing doing this because they had experienced this kind of stuff in other churches that they had been to and I've had a number of other other people contact me with the same same situation.
05:31: Yeah so look, I You know,
05:37: I've told a little bit about you know, and I can talk about how this all came about if we want to but Yeah, I'm I'm more interested at the start here anyways
05:49: What you all heard and what you all would think The the outcome of of all this might be
06:02: Specifically the Bay or the fallout after the well, we can probably tackle both of those Yeah, but both
06:08: I mean the fallout sort of comes from with the debate, but the debate in particular Yeah, and then the response to it.
06:15: Yeah. Well, I think I told you Sunday on stage when we were getting ready to do announcements that it went
06:22: Way worse for Mahler than I thought Like I think we all anticipated At least one certain passage of Scripture that he'd be operating from and he didn't even touch that right
06:33: And so I think that was kind of a shock to us all But yeah, I mean is the my over overall take is didn't give you anything at all to even work with And Mean get in the specifics of that, but it was clear the the direction he was going the point
06:47: He was trying to make and he failed miserably to make that point and So that was my overall.
06:54: I mean you just all you had to do is stick to Scripture. I mean, I Mean you did a fantastic job, but anyone with an
07:01: IQ of 80 I think could have beat Mahler in that debate Is that an intentional rib? maybe
07:08: Sounds like it maybe Now that likewise that was my initial reaction after listening to I was hoping
07:17: Not only for more of a positive case from Scripture on his end But also a positive interaction with what you were presenting and the cross -examination with the verses
07:27: Yeah, yeah pretty much everybody has said the same thing as far as the scriptural element is concerned and Everybody was wondering
07:36: I saw comments even during the debate When's he gonna, you know get to the Scripture Wednesday to get to the
07:41: Bible all this opening Stuff just left everybody going what what's going on here?
07:48: But you know Doug focused in upon the same thing. Yes in his rather humorous
07:54: Yeah Classical Doug Wilson style Review of of the debate and honestly,
08:02: I think that's the first Now that I think about it. I think that's the first debate I've ever heard a review of from Doug's perspective other than The ones that he and I have done
08:17: So like we did that thing in the RV After we did the the debate on pato communion and You know, so there was that kind of thing
08:30: But I think this first time that just you know for blog and may blog or something like that That he actually reviewed one of one of my debates
08:37: So, you know, I'm not sure that has a specific meaning to it or just what but he said pretty much the same stuff a lot of people have said look
08:46: I had one guy yesterday say Look all Mahler all Mahler was doing was using you to get his name out there.
08:54: He never intended to actually debate you and I you know, I can understand why someone would would come to that conclusion, but it also to me
09:04: Demonstrates that a lot of people do not understand where these guys are coming from, right? They just do not understand the position that they're they're taking and that's what's dangerous from my perspective is these folks
09:20: When you when you say what they believe you said it sounds like you're making stuff up Right, but the the dangerous part is once they've got you listening then they start
09:32: Sewing in all these, you know Well, what have you ever thought about this ever thought about that and think about this fact and and they'll throw true true facts in there
09:41: To get your attention and to and to get you listening And that's the dangerous the dangerous part.
09:48: At least that's what I'm seeing Because if people ask me well, why would why would these people be making inroads into churches?
09:55: This is how they're doing it This is the methodology they use Yeah Yeah, you're right and I know
10:00: I've seen a lot of that that kind of chatter You know people say no You know the only reason
10:06: Stone Choir and Corey Muller have a following is because James White keeps talking about It's like in you we know this and we've we've said this the reason we're having to address it is because we're seeing it in our churches
10:22: In and and that's why it needs to be addressed. It's it's a putrid doctrine
10:28: Theology that needs to be completely eliminated Excuse me. Um And so yeah,
10:34: I mean you've been you've been saying this for year and a half now, uh
10:39: You know, I've tried to think about I've tried to think about that. I I remember
10:45: The first time I looked up Stone Choir and looked at the website I didn't really understand what they were talking about.
10:51: I didn't really get it, but I could see that You know, I mean, okay back in 2018 we did the
11:00: G3 pre -conference thing on the woke church stuff and That was the same year
11:08: I think as the woke church book came out You know by the guy who called for an ecumenical council to have me declared a heretic
11:17: Yeah, Eric Mason, yeah and so Yeah, I I was addressing some of that stuff and interestingly enough
11:26: In that pre -conference, guess what text was my primary text Colossians chapter 3 so but but when people were talking about racism in the church and stuff like that,
11:39: I was like I Don't I don't know. I'm just not I'm just not really seeing that I I see a lot of accusations of racism and of course once the the
11:49: Floyd stuff happened, you know, if you're if you're white and You're straight then you're a racist and everything was all of a sudden racism, which meant nothing was racism
12:01: Which in my opinion is what opened the door for a lot of this stuff because if everything's racism then the real racist can get away with actually being real racist because everybody else is like No, there's
12:13: None of this is racism. So But I'm not you know people say boy you're away way ahead the curve in this no,
12:20: I wasn't no I wasn't It was only last summer that I really started seeing
12:26: These guys and and I guess it's just because I didn't follow them Either that or half of them are really are a server farm and they don't really exist.
12:35: I mean all these Anon accounts Who knows if these are real people or not?
12:40: I mean has anyone ever seen defiant Baptist and JD Hall in the same room at the same time.
12:46: Hmm. I Haven't you know, I mean and there's no way of knowing If and this really brings up a lot of scary stuff today.
12:55: I mean, I think it was Jeff that sent that video out Luke to our elders
13:02: Group that was created completely with AI. Oh, yeah the air. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of there's that I guess
13:09: There's this new Google AI thing that can just produce videos, you know fast.
13:16: I Can't tell that it's not real. I Maybe there's something, you know, maybe if someone ran it through the filters and I can't tell was not real
13:25: So, how are we supposed to know half these people were interacting with online are real or not?
13:31: I mean I I Don't have answers for all that to be perfectly honest with you. I'm not sure
13:37: How we're supposed to Deal with accusations and everything else in the future when you can't even tell with what you're looking at is actually real or not
13:47: That's scary stuff. But this is really practical stuff because this is coming into churches where the people want to believe it or not and Look you and Zach Do a lot of the pastoral counseling at apology
14:03: So you've got your your finger on the on the pulse of this kind of stuff, you know, and you've seen how online influencers can
14:16: Literally have a greater influence especially over young men's minds Then the pastors who pour into their lives and meet with them and preach to them you know every week and Just a lot of people just don't understand how that can actually end up happening and yet this is this isn't just some online
14:38: Fight this is about what's coming into the church itself Yeah yeah,
14:44: I agree and I Think he's talking about the fallout from the debate
14:52: Immediately, I started this you kind of started to see Some lines being drawn
14:57: From people especially an axe and Yeah, and and so my immediate thoughts were one
15:06: Cory Mahler is an evil man. He should be marked. He has been marked. We shouldn't be praising him for anything
15:13: We shouldn't be saying. Oh, well, he made a good point here and you know, I you know
15:18: You I immediately saw people saying well, you know I don't I wouldn't go as far as he did
15:23: But I agree with what he said here is like no no, no No, like if someone's saying that we shouldn't even be entertaining their opinion because this is a vile doctrine
15:31: That needs to be completely obliterated out of the church And it's there it is a problem.
15:37: Like you mentioned we've seen in the church in our own church. We've had to deal with I even just Last week had to have another conversation, you know, how many months is minutes?
15:46: That's we're in May. So five nine months now I've been dealing with it and And so like people are to have that kind of reaction.
15:55: It's like why are we even you know? I saw people that are good genuine brothers doing like an official kind of Debate breakdown and well, dr.
16:05: White earned points here. And I thought it's like why are we even why are we even doing that?
16:10: Like this man was exposed thoroughly for the evil man that he is and we need to mark him out
16:16: And I was like joking but not joking. I was like who won the debate I say the Holy Spirit won the debate because you proved that The Holy Spirit is fully capable of sanctifying the black man just as much as a white man you know, and so that's that's kind of the my thought process is anyone who's kind of even detracting from Just the vileness of this doctrine in this man.
16:39: Like that should raise a red flag with you It seems that there's a tendency based on what
16:45: I've seen just in the discourse on this over the past several months online
16:51: To label the teaching or the remarks that he is making is foolish
16:57: But never evil. Yeah. Mm -hmm. And right. It's a good point. I don't understand that.
17:03: I I don't see How you can? Let up there
17:09: And not condemn the statements itself And by extension, I mean to some degree the man that's making them yeah, so What's interesting to me also is not only what was said by who after the debate took place, but who didn't say anything
17:27: Yeah, so who did that was the next who did not remark on the debate whatsoever and What I view in terms of what is said
17:40: By people who I know are, you know reading along the lines of these materials and Deriving from similar sources.
17:50: They're saying a lot of the same things that Corey Mahler said in the debate. Yeah, and That concerns me to a great degree, but they're still
18:00: Denouncing a lot of what he does is foolish. I am I I would hope that These men would go all the way yeah
18:10: Yeah, I was gonna sit that was gonna say that too is you know, there's Men that have something to say about everything and when it came to this well
18:18: I'm not gonna talk about in particular this conversation. Yeah, and now and now nothing and the question is why?
18:25: Why are you all of a sudden not saying something and I think it's pretty clear pretty plain to me why you're not saying something but If that's someone that you listen and follow like list to a follow like you should be
18:37: You should be concerned about that. Well, let me point something out, you know people say Well, you know, they say some interesting stuff.
18:44: They've got some interesting stuff on history and you know, so does MSNBC, but I don't watch them either but You know who was in his day was tapping into that kind of stuff
18:57: Was Joseph Smith I mean Joseph Smith tapped into the theories about where the
19:02: American Indians and come from and this was all stuff that we look back At now and go man. That was that was really dumb.
19:09: That was that was really childish but that was the popular stuff of the day and that's what that's what cult leaders do is they they get the interest of people and they tap into stuff and It's hard for us to imagine what it was like in The 1830s when
19:27: Joseph Smith burst onto the scene and he's got this book he says is from the ancient inhabitants of of North America and hey who back then honestly had any kind of Who could have been prepared to respond to those claims
19:45: There were nobody had Mormonism shadow reality sitting on the shelf. They they didn't have any resources
19:53: How could you even respond to this stuff? It sounds crazy. But wow, you know, he says an angel gave him this book and you know
20:02: There's a lot there was a lot of speculation about where the Indians came from and you all the rest of stuff hey this and look what happened now, obviously from my perspective if Joseph Smith had not been murdered in the
20:15: Carthage Jail in 1844 if they had given him only two more years There would be no
20:21: Mormonism today because it was changing and evolving so fast That I don't think within two years
20:28: Anybody could have made heads or tails out of what in the world? He would have been teaching by that point in time.
20:34: And so I don't think there'd be a Mormonism today but instead you got a martyr and You got a second -generation strong leader in Brigham Young To sort of go
20:46: I'm gonna accept this part of what he taught and we're not gonna worry about this part And we're gonna run with that and now you've got how many millions of Mormons On the earth now.
20:55: I understand they're sort of falling apart. They're fracturing there They no one knows what we're in the world are going
21:00: But the point is how many millions of people have been Mormons lived and died as Mormons since then cult leaders tend to have similar ways of behavior and I think
21:12: Mahler is a cult leader and So you don't Who would go well, you know
21:20: Joseph Smith says some crazy things, but he says some interesting things, too You know, it's not too bad to listen to him, you know, and this
21:26: Book of Mormon thing I don't know, you know, I don't like the conclusions, but you know, it's got a lot of Bible in it
21:32: You know, it quotes 17 chapters King James version of the Bible. That's that's got to be good you know, and it's got lots of these and thous and so why not right and That's what we're hearing from people right now who are
21:46: Let's just be honest with you that they are dependent upon the stone choir
21:52: Realm of audience to prop their own audience sure and they're they're so concerned about that and so worried about that That they won't say what needs to be said and just completely cut that stuff off And then others have said hey,
22:08: I've ever noticed how this guy will say something and six months earlier That's what had been on stone choir
22:15: And it's like Yeah that that does seem to happen every once in a while. That's sort of sort of strange
22:20: Yeah, so I think that's where part of the problem is coming from and I understand look there are a lot of people who?
22:29: Just they don't know how pervasive Social media influencing is
22:38: In the younger generation, they just they just they don't they don't I mean this thing is an absolute open door
22:45: I'm holding up my phone if you can't see it. This thing is an absolute open door to Anything to come into someone's mind and and we're the we're the first generation to be dealing with this let's be honest and that means we're probably gonna make some mistakes and Stuff like that because hey first generation you you're you're basically
23:09: Bringing some older thought into something. It's brand new and Sometimes that's good.
23:15: Sometimes that bad. It all depends, but we're really struggling with this kind of stuff and how to How to control this.
23:22: I mean again, we you know, you're Apollo Gia Church, see I said
23:27: Gia they're not Guillaume and it's taken me a few years, but We know that for example when you
23:36: When the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example had false prophecies about Armageddon and all the rest that stuff back in the olden days they could control the information that their people be exposed to They can't do that anymore because the same thing first it was cable
23:53: TV now, it's the Internet They can't do what they used to do in controlling the flow of information and neither can we
24:02: Neither can we and so if we're not if we're not and we've been doing this in the proverb series if we're not talking to our congregations our congregation because all three of us are involved in the same church, but and all congregations and are not laying that foundation of discernment and calling them to have
24:26: That level of discernment as a part of their service to Christ That they need to realize that that every day the world is is gunning for them is gunning for their mind
24:38: Is is trying to distract them from service to Christ in the church service of Christ in their families
24:45: That's what we need. We need to be doing we can't We can't be doing the thing the way the church the way that we did when
24:53: I was you know I got married in 1982 and We did we did things differently 1982 then in 2020 born you
25:04: There was yeah, okay good There was right along with that unwelcome comment
25:12: There was no there. There was no internet. There was no way of Communicating this kind of stuff
25:20: So we've we've got to adapt to all of that and I guarantee you One of the ways to adapt to that that I'm never gonna be able to do and I will fight everybody who tries it
25:31: Is to all of a sudden decide that everything the Bible says about the tongue purity holiness
25:40: Christ likeness The fact that the church is made up of men from every tribe tongue people a nation and it's
25:48: God the father that calls his people through Jesus Christ unto himself by the power of the
25:54: Holy Spirit and I'm never I'm never abandoning any of that stuff. Can't do it won't do it
26:01: But it really seems that a lot of folks are going that direction Oh, you know, I just saw a thing right before we got in the line got got going some
26:11: Hundred and sixteen follower Martin Luthor guy on on on on Twitter Saying something to rich.
26:24: I don't know if you guys have seen there's been some really vile stuff said I mean,
26:31: I could I couldn't even describe the stuff Yeah, they'll they'll they'll see yeah, if you if you look at the feed you'll you'll find all this stuff
26:41: These people are not Christians but by any by any measure by any Discernible measure of the
26:48: Christian faith. They have no interest in purity of speech thought conduct
26:55: They don't care about bringing accusations against against their elders. They don't care about any of these things their church is the
27:04: Internet and The the Internet will never be a church it can't be it creates a vacuum that is absolutely destructive to the soul and so Anyway, I I Hesitated honestly when when
27:26: Bible dingers contacted me and I'm not sure if I told you what no, I didn't hear this.
27:31: What really happened was Okay, Mahler did two Dialogue discussions over the past couple of months.
27:39: That's all those one with Chris Rosebaum and one with Samuel say and My takeaway from both was that this guy is a slimy attorney
27:54: He runs around out in the weeds in Genesis 9 and the vast majority of Christian ministers
28:03: If they've ever even preached through Genesis 9 I've not spent a whole lot of time on it for one simple obvious reason which interestingly enough
28:11: Did not come up during the debate Yeah, which I'm still
28:17: Speculating as to what the reason for that was because if you listen to those first two dialogues That's all he wanted to talk about right was the table of Nations in Genesis 10
28:27: Genesis 9 He has said publicly I had it queued up I had hundreds of quotes from him ready to go if he went that direction and he
28:35: Wisely avoided doing any of that, but he has said History has been most influenced by two prophecies
28:43: Genesis 3 the prote evangelium and Genesis 9 25 to 27 the curse of Canaan and the blessing of the other two sons of Noah They changed that of course the curse of Ham but He didn't go there
29:00: He he he he didn't go there. So how do people you know, most most ministers
29:06: How do you respond to this once you once you hear it? So Samuel had
29:13: That the first one with Rosebaugh just sort of Wandered around and I was
29:21: I was I was really like, okay There wasn't really a position being presented here.
29:26: And then Samuel when when Sam got him to say That the
29:31: Holy Spirit cannot in this life sanctify a black believer as much as a white believer
29:37: I was like, well, there it is and so like a day or two later the
29:43: Bible dingers guys contacted me and They said we think Sam did a great job
29:49: But we really feel like someone with Debate experience needs to take
29:57: Mahler on and I couldn't argue with the I couldn't argue with that Yeah, I agree.
30:05: Yeah, and then I started thinking well who has debate experience? Well, I Mean I did not want to do this
30:12: I just we just this was we I was down at Reform Con because remember I told you all about it in the green room
30:20: When it would it happened? And I'm just sort of like Well, I'm not gonna do what they did.
30:26: I'm not gonna do Genesis 9 and run around in the weeds on stuff that People don't have any background in this that it didn't know.
30:36: I'm not gonna go there I said, what does he want to debate? and they said he wants to debate is racism a sin and I knew that was general
30:48: It's super general and I knew it was just gonna take us back to Genesis 9 because he's gonna say
30:54: Genetically, these are the races these really came from this is biblical Blah -blah -blah and you just you could be right back where we were and I said no that's gonna take us
31:06: Back to stuff the the ground that's already been covered I'll tell you what I'll debate him on can the
31:14: Holy Spirit sanctify a black person as much as the white person because he had said no not in this life Expecting that that was gonna be the end of it in essence
31:24: Within an hour or so. I think they got back to me and said he's fine when you want to Wow, and and I'm like, oh
31:34: No I Yeah, really well not so much not not in the sense of being concerned about it, yeah, but I Spent hours listening to this guy ever since reform con.
31:50: I mean I was listening to him on the drive back up from Tucson and and It was it was as enjoyable as The drive
32:02: Yeah, the drive up in Tucson is not the most exciting stretch of freeway either is it but some of the
32:11: When I think of some of the books that I've written over the years Two of them that were the most spiritually oppressive to write in the sense of doing the research to do the the books
32:22: One the first one was Mary another Redeemer Because I had to read books like the glories of Mary and I mean, that's just I don't know how to describe it
32:36: I've jokingly said on the program before I read all the heretics so you don't have to yeah but but that's not easy to do and When I wrote the same -sex controversy with Jeff Neal Having to read the other side and Believe me that was in I think 2000 2001 at 2000
33:00: There there weren't there there were one 1 ,000 the number of books on the other side are now.
33:06: It's just it's just unbelievable. What's out there now, but still even then it was Spiritually degrading
33:15: To deal with that subject and to deal with the Marian subject Those were those were tough and having to listen to these guys was a very similar experience
33:24: The only thing that made it a little bit better as I wasn't writing a book So I wasn't gonna have to regurgitate it over and over and over again so it was it was only
33:34: Reform con was what 24th 25th? What was it? Yeah, just a month ago. Exactly.
33:40: Yeah. Okay, so it's exactly a month ago. So I only had about three weeks So that made it a little bit easier because it was gonna be over with eventually one way or the other
33:50: But it was It's it's not an enjoyable subject deal with and I think it's why a lot of people don't deal with it
33:56: And it's also why they don't know where he was coming from. Now. I will admit this Some of his cross -ex questions.
34:02: I understood what he was trying to get to. Yeah fine. I Will never ever ever understand the platypus question.
34:12: I I I Can't even I have no idea. I'm with you on that You know, um
34:23: Just quickly You and I both talked to Cooper a lot John Cooper He said he kind of had a similar experience when he was doing all that reading for a week wimpy and woke, right?
34:34: You know and he just was about a year -long funk kind of he was in where after I mean he did a lot of reading a lot of work to prep for that book and He he said the same thing.
34:42: He's like man. It was just heavy and had a really hard time just you know Recovering from all of that junk.
34:48: You had to read some. Yeah Yeah, people don't people don't see that part they they don't see the the research part the reading part
34:56: And I think it's why a lot of people just ignore, you know The the specifics of where where Mahler's coming from too and and again, that's dangerous
35:05: Because they end up taking a rather surface level perspective How can anyone believe this?
35:11: That's not gonna help if you've got someone in your church and they have already listened to where they're coming from They're gonna be able to detect fairly quickly.
35:19: You don't really know what he's saying And I do know what he's saying. I I did I was understanding what he was saying
35:26: He was he was trying to say God does not change. Well, I I agree that has nothing to do
35:32: He says well, you know cursed the curse of him. Well, it wasn't a curse of him. It was You know the whole
35:38: And I mentioned this on on the program on Thursday on Tuesday, but I I kept it quiet up until then
35:45: The whole This is this is really Wisdom here we can learn from this in the 19th century in the
35:56: United States pretty much everyone from any perspective but especially reformed
36:04: Baptists, you know the southern Presbyterians northern Presbyterians pretty much everybody in the 19th century
36:13: Accepted as a given that the blacks were the offspring of him and that Genesis 9
36:23: Said that they were to be servants to the others that was that was a general given and when you when you dig into it and I I Haven't moved the book yet But when you when you dig into this book here the curse of ham race and slavery and early
36:44: Judaism Christianity Islam by David M Goldenberg When you when you really get into it, you're left going.
36:51: How did that ever happen? How did we ever? completely blow
36:58: Genesis 9 the way that we did because The curse is on Canaan the earliest
37:05: Christian interpretation of that You see it in origin. You see it in Ambrose others in the early church
37:12: They all understood that to mean that the curse on Canaan is why? The Canaanites were wiped out when
37:19: Israel went into the promised land. That was the fulfillment of the prophecy That's when it what came to fruition.
37:25: That was the earliest Christian understanding. You don't have anything Connecting this to ham black skin
37:33: Africans anything like that and this didn't come up. I wish it had but the earliest that we can find anywhere of Anyone making that connection and connecting black skin to the sense of ham and therefore to slavery right here
37:53: The history of Al -Tabari Al -Tabari is one of the early great scholars of Islam And he repeats a tradition from Ibn Ishaq.
38:04: Ibn Ishaq is one of the earliest sources we have for information on Muhammad He repeats a tradition from Ibn Ishaq In regards to that interpretation of Genesis 9 and the curse on ham, which is a misunderstanding but the descendants of ham being the blacks and You can make a good argument that that went from the
38:29: Muslims to the Jews interesting and from the Jews in about the 12th century to the first Christians that adopted that perspective and I I just wonder what
38:45: Corey Mahler how Corey Mahler would have responded To the idea that his key hermeneutic because this is how he reads the entire
38:53: Bible his key hermeneutic was derived from the Muslims via the
38:58: Jews, I mean that's enough to really Make his make his head explode
39:07: But then it became so prevalent as a tradition Hmm that pretty much everyone in the
39:15: United States Even the abolitionists in general did not argue against that interpretation of Genesis 9 some did but in General, it was just sort of an accepted idea
39:26: That that this is what that the black -skinned people even even black ministers in the north
39:35: Accepted that interpretation. Huh? Now what I learned from that is hey just because it's popular doesn't make it right and Just because you know and we say that all the time just because it's popular
39:51: Among Roman Catholics to think that Matthew 16 18 is about the papacy and that Peter's the rock and by the way
39:57: I don't make it, right and I just go how many things are there?
40:04: in our own day That we accept as an absolute given That Wasn't a given 500 years ago and 500 years from now.
40:14: They're gonna look back at us and go. What were they thinking? Because it's happened in the past and there were great
40:21: Presbyterian writers That on other subjects like this nation election atonement we'd go.
40:27: Yeah. Yeah Yeah on this stuff out in left field from our perspective now, they think we were the ones out in left field
40:36: This is why you have to believe in solo scriptura because when when you really dig into Genesis chapter 9, that's not what it says
40:42: I mean the wording is clear. The curse is on Canaan. It's not on him and The arguments that they're made to try to connect him to the blacks
40:51: Specifically are very tenuous and just because they've been held You know by for hundreds of years by people that doesn't mean that anybody in those hundreds of years had any idea what they were
41:01: Talking about it's just it just became something that was accepted So here's a here's a good example of what that kind of stuff can lead to yeah, and why solo scriptura is so important and why we have to stand firm on it and why
41:19: We have to continue to examine our theology and our traditions in the light of Scripture Because if great people of the past because I mean some of those
41:31: You know Dabney and people like that in the south. They wrote a lot of great stuff
41:37: But they also were clearly enslaved by the views of their day
41:44: And and took positions that are just way way way out there and we're running we're running into him again in this situation
41:51: Yeah, you should ask Cory if he thought he was white and delights him I Mean that the whole cross -sex part, you know obviously we know where he was trying to go and his whole presupposition was that God is unable to Sanctify a black person like a white person, which he never
42:12: Showed never demonstrated. So that's kind of it You know where his line of question was going, but I love
42:18: I thought Doug's Blog in a blog was brilliant high broke the dogs, you know It's like yes, you can man fly no, but could
42:26: God cause a man to fly if he wanted sure He caused a man to walk on water. Why couldn't he cause a man to fly?
42:33: He raised a man, you know men from the dead Why can he cause a man to fly, you know?
42:38: so even like that whole line of reasoning was just bunk and I I mean Doug did a phenomenal job of Breaking down some of that stuff.
42:46: I didn't even think of right I had missed. What are you contemplating something over there? I'm just replaying in my mind listening to the cross -examination and the line of you know questioning based on the verses that you chose to kind of get at the at the main idea here because he tried to make the debate about a difference between Justification and sanctification, right?
43:10: Oh, he said no this has nothing to do With sanctification and then you would go to a scripture that clearly taught that this encompasses the whole
43:21: Christian life. I mean leading on to the end when we're finally with Jesus again. I mean, how is this not?
43:28: Sanctification and how is there a distinction? It can't be you just throwing out statistical information about Yeah, how yeah, yeah crime stats or you know
43:41: At what rate or who commits these crimes and say that because of these?
43:48: Cultural limitations and what have you that this group of people is now
43:54: Less able to be sanctified or they're unable to be sanctified by God to the same degree
44:00: That white people are again. I don't know How you can connect those dots
44:08: I'm sure that there are various things realities that are grappled with on a ground level in between Different ethnicities different cultures different proclivities that exist within certain communities, but to say that God is not able and does not have the desire by extension to Sanctify his people and to as you put in the debate join
44:32: Us together from every tribe tongue and nation and sanctify us all together in community with one another that in and of itself was a
44:42: Tremendous, I think face plant on his part. Yeah agree, well, well remember he also said that and I didn't get a chance to respond to this, but he also said that if Germans Had been at Mount Sinai Rather than the
45:00: Jews. They never would have made the Golden Calf High arrogance and and I'm like one and I'm like, you know, he might have a point
45:09: They probably would have made a BMW and then worship the engineer that made the
45:14: BMW So, you know, but but the idea that that Germans somehow have less of a
45:22: In you know, look I'm not gonna argue that there may not there it's very clear that they're
45:31: American Indians struggle with alcoholism Okay, that's a reality.
45:36: I I had a friend who was Navajo and I went to visit him in the hospital once his mom was there.
45:45: He was out and I said what's wrong? And she says she said she's
45:50: Navajo 100 % Navajo And she said to me Navajo disease I Said what's that alcohol?
45:59: That's what she called it, okay, so there is a propensity there and it may even be genetic
46:06: That's fine. I'm not arguing. I'm not saying that's not the case. I think there is a genetic propensity amongst
46:13: Germans to be idolatrous of intellect and philosophy and their own
46:21: Brilliance in engineering That's a that's a that's a tendency toward idolatry
46:26: Are we supposed to say that the Spirit of God can't deal with that when when we're when we're counseling someone who comes in?
46:32: They says they say they have same -sex attraction Do we just simply dismiss that and go?
46:38: Well, it must be genetic. That's how God made you Well, that's that's how some people view it.
46:43: There's no question about it But we recognize hey, even if you have a propensity towards something in your background in your family people come in all the time you know there and they're saying stuff like well, you know,
46:56: I was treated horribly when I was a kid and I had dysfunctional family and Now they're repeating the sins of their parents
47:04: It's like no just because that's what happened in your background You need to recognize that recognize its sin, but that's not an excuse to perpetuate it and to continue it
47:12: You know, you can put that sin to death So even if any of those things were true, even if there there was anything about about Aggression or you know stuff like that That is not an excuse to ignore what
47:27: God's law says because you can have the trust That the Spirit of God is able to take any one of his
47:35: Redeemed elect people and make them like Christ in any part of their life
47:40: I mean Mahler's theology leads to it's obvious Mahler isn't doing any marriage counseling or any pastoral work whatsoever
47:50: And when you look at this stuff the filth flowing out that it was documented a few weeks ago from their private servers
47:58: And the things are time and the stuff that you see on Twitter even today These folks are not doing
48:05: Church, they're not doing the Christian life And it shows it really really does but When I when
48:15: I pressed him on Colossians 3 Remember, he started off in his opening He wanted to avoid using original language materials
48:24: Yeah the reason he did that is he did not want me dragging him into the text and Asking him to answer questions about stuff that he can't read.
48:31: He can't deal with I get that But when we did get into Colossians 3 and I started pushing him on that and I and I Specifically pushed on barbarian and Scythian because those are ethnicities and Scythian is a specific ethnicity and He said
48:50: I disagree with that that that's when I had him because it's like, okay show me
48:56: Go into the text and show me he can't He can't do it. And so part of me on it, you know, if you don't do debates
49:05: You know people sometimes asked you you go back and review all your debates I don't but one thing that that sort of bugs me a little bit about this one is that his cross -ex was so Meaningless Was so out there in the woods
49:24: That no one seems to remember his time to three. I'm sorry He gave up three minutes.
49:29: He ceded most of his time on both Opportunities. Yeah. Yeah, and you know again
49:35: I've debated many attorneys Two of the attorneys have debated were good.
49:42: They were they were well trained Every other one I've debated were pushovers
49:49: Have you ever have you ever heard the Martin Tanner or seen the Martin Tanner debate up in University of Utah?
49:55: Yes. Yeah He's an attorney He did not know how to do cross -examination
50:00: He's just sitting there throwing me softballs and looks upset that I'm knocking him right out of the park
50:06: Because he doesn't know how to set up it. He doesn't know how to make an argument in cross -exam He doesn't know how to test for consistency.
50:13: Nothing So I was I was surprised at where he was going
50:18: But the thing that bugs me is because his cross -ex was so far out there. No one remembers what
50:23: I asked him Right and no one remembers how he could not even begin he ran from the text he was afraid of it and so it is sort of a bummer to be honest with you because The guy gave himself a smoke screen with his did you know the platypus is venomous?
50:43: Have you seen that the the Bible dingers guys have put a t -shirt out No with a with a platypus on it that says something about I love theology or something like that Oh, that's hilarious.
50:55: Just simply as in memorial of we're good as the antifreeze Well, well, and then did you see
51:01: Eric's meme Eric Eric Yeager? that was a great meme that he put out with with the the
51:07: Preston bottle and The prat the platypus and yeah, you know, you know, they're the same picture
51:14: Well, look, I'm I'm half German and I'm confident. I would have made a chocolate calf
51:19: Right, right with beer. Yes Okay There's no question about that one, yeah, and then you would have had some
51:32: Scandinavian aspect to it, you know I would have involved murdering Villagers, I mean in all seriousness to his conclusions seemed to just cast a great accusation of Deficiency on the work and power of the
51:50: Holy Spirit. Yeah in the lives of God's people Yeah, it's it it strikes me as a very under realized
51:58: Soteriology, right does God have the power? To sanctify black people and white people and any other color of people any other ethnos
52:08: Equally, or is he at the mercy of their prior dispositions and their actions?
52:15: That's not the sovereign God of Scripture that I know no No, but remember he's he's also said that His wife and children should never have to see
52:27: Or deal with a black person in America so Oh his his fundamental thrust is white supremacy and Kick all the foreigners out and give
52:41: America back to Americans. And so Theology isn't his thing. He uses that as a as a cover as a mechanism
52:52: But really what he's he's pushing for is is seen in his public statements about You know
53:02: The blacks have been in America Whenever anybody says to me blacks been in America for centuries.
53:08: I go so pigs, but I doesn't make him human That's him. That's his That's his statement and so that's the real
53:20: That's the stuff that gets The nasty followers, but then when he does this kind of stuff, it's the
53:26: Mott and Bailey thing He's out there doing the red meat and then he runs back into the castle of quote -unquote
53:33: Christian theology And that's what when I was studying his stuff. That's what struck me Was he and this dump earth guy would be sitting there talking about how you need to you know
53:45: The commandment says you're to honor your father and your mother and that means your grandparents and your great -great grandparents
53:50: That means you honor your race you honor your people And if you're if you will not take care of your own
53:57: You're worse an unbeliever. And so we need to obey God's Commandments These are the same people that are you know on social media?
54:06: Just ignoring every commandment about speech and holiness and sanctification and everything else
54:13: But when they're doing this thing, they're also very very holy and Sanctified and baptizing their their kid is a
54:22: Christian Christian language I mean, this is Their kids period because he that's that was how he started to cross -ex was going after me on infant on infant baptism.
54:32: Yeah yeah, I mean his whole I I forget with it was with Sam or with Roseboro, but You know his whole thing was if you marry outside of someone from a different nation that you're
54:46: You're stealing. It's left. I thought yeah, he made he tried to make it a legitimate argument for that It was like this is coming back to me now to just talking about this stuff, but he really got on you for some reason about you addressing you know your your countrymen
55:01: Scots and yeah, and so on and so forth and All you were doing was simply pointing out that when a nation violates covenant with God that is what brings the consequences from a national perspective and For some reason in his mind that meant that you were talking trash about your own people.
55:20: Yeah, I mean Yeah, that's that's one of their big arguments and they've definitely followed up with that You're you hate your own people and stuff like that And all
55:30: I had said was the the the primary people promoting homosexuality and Transgenderism and the nations that are making it illegal to even talk about these things or criticize these things
55:45: They're the people you're saying are the primary people that are the bulwark of the of the kingdom of God They are the white
55:53: Europeans that you say very clearly This is where the the blessing from from Noah came down and without the white race there is no
56:03: Christianity there is no Christendom and yet I know history
56:09: Okay, and and I know what the tuba gin school in Germany did to so many churches you look at the state churches in Europe and We're there where that all come from And so you're attacking your own people know my people are the people who stay faithful to Christ for crying out loud
56:29: Yeah, and and that's what that that's really where the the issue is is who are my people?
56:36: And or my mother and my sister and my brothers those that do the will of God exactly exactly.
56:41: Yeah Yeah, so but once you know, they're they're tapping into the fact that for years now in the
56:48: United States Young white men have been told that they are to blame for everything toxic toxic masculinity.
56:55: You're racist blah blah blah blah blah and Hey when you're constantly falsely accused of stuff
57:03: It's pretty easy to get talked into being you know adopting the victim mentality and everything else and That's where they're getting their clicks and let's just be honest.
57:13: That's where they're getting their popularity. Maybe even their money Even though I think those guys they get their money from from other stuff, but they like having followers and You see the results there so do you do you
57:27: I think you probably got injured in a few minutes, I'm guessing but um, I Was just gonna ask you quickly.
57:33: I mean you've been on X for Ever and I don't I didn't mean that as a joke. I meant like since it's 2010 2010.
57:40: Yeah, I started so I could have made that a joke, but I didn't I refrained Do you see a correlation between?
57:49: Growth in this nonsense and Elon Musk buying Twitter. No, no, not at all.
57:55: No There wasn't an issue with Twitter until at least
58:03: Ferguson and stuff like that Then 2020 you started seeing a lot of the censorship and things like that and Then Elon Musk buys it and that all disappears and we start seeing this but I don't think that had anything to do with it
58:18: I just I don't mean yeah, I don't mean cuz Elon bought it. I'm like accusing him of it I'm just saying because all of a sudden there's a lot more free speech
58:26: Yeah on X and so they're not censoring all this stuff. Yeah, and you know A lot of these a lot of these guys that we see saying stuff on X Aren't saying the same stuff on Facebook because you can't get away with saying that stuff on Facebook That's true
58:40: So it's almost like there's they're like two -faced and what they are saying and so a lot of people that aren't on X because I wasn't
58:46: I don't have time, you know that but I wasn't and I wasn't seeing it because I'm like, well
58:51: I don't I don't see that coming from these guys on Facebook. And then when you see it, you're like, wait a minute What's going on here? So that's why I was asking.
58:57: I was just wondering Yeah, I don't I don't think that was it but I think I think kovat and the pushback and You know all the lockdowns and stuff and then people are like no,
59:10: I'm I'm taking my freedoms back They took that as an opportunity to say, you know what?
59:15: I'm gonna start saying what I want to say and I'm gonna start saying it the way I want to say it and I think part of it is the anon stuff.
59:25: They think they can get away with this without ever being held accountable I guess they never think that every every idle word spoken or typed
59:34: Will be will be judged And I just think that that they started feeding into each other and it just resulted in this starting to bubble up Yeah, has it been there all along?
59:46: sadly probably on some level But with this kind of open vitriol and nastiness yeah, if it was there it wasn't in the feeds that I was following and You still sort of have to go look for it.
01:00:04: But man, is it there everywhere now? Yeah. Yeah, literally every time open X That's all I see. Yeah.
01:00:09: Yeah, it's been emboldened. It has been very emboldened and You I sit here go and no we don't have to stop right now, um,
01:00:19: I sit here and go look right now Trump's doing his thing and I Have to admit what he did with the
01:00:31: South African president. I'm just sitting here going. Oh my goodness
01:00:37: Wow, I mean I Think that's great. I am so sick, you know on that particular topic as you guys know
01:00:45: Oh, maybe not don't know as no as as well as but I used to go to South Africa all the time
01:00:51: Yeah, I was in South Africa every year for years in a row. I know what's going on down there and To see the the media saying oh, it's all been debunked and it's all
01:01:03: All these people are still as vile as they've ever been the media I'm referring to and here's the thing right now.
01:01:10: It sort of looks like oh look Pete Hegseth They're doing a Bible study with his pastor and and the
01:01:16: New York Times is completely freaking out Because Pete Hegseth may met with with Doug Wilson and Doug Wilson's are not case said, you know and all this stuff's going on and And we're sort of sitting back going, you know, there's some good stuff happening.
01:01:32: There's some not -so -good stuff happening There's some sort of scary stuff happening. There's some stuff.
01:01:37: We don't really know where where it's gonna go happening Sure, but here's here's here's here's my thinking real fast the only way to Stop this nation's slide into oblivion economically militarily socially and everything else
01:01:55: Would require the people of the nation to be willing to make sacrifices For the sake of the nation and for the sake of doing what's right and good
01:02:05: And I don't see how many people are actually willing to do that it seems a lot of people who vote for Trump vote for Trump just simply because Things were getting expensive under Biden and he promised to give them some more opportunity
01:02:21: Will will they be there for the next candidate? in in 2028
01:02:28: Has there been a change in the attitude of the nation? That would be described as repentance and understanding of a
01:02:36: Christian worldview. I don't see it I don't see it at all. And my concern is let's say there is a pendulum swing
01:02:47: Maybe not in 2028, but in 2032. Okay, and The other side is now back in control
01:02:55: I don't think we personally have an overly conservative court right now
01:03:00: Sure, but let let one or two justices Be selected that barrier is gone
01:03:09: The the judges in this land are as corrupt as the day is long and all of a sudden
01:03:15: The the thin veil of protections we had in 2020 2021 2022 is gone
01:03:25: And all of a sudden we're facing Serious full -on persecution
01:03:33: Luke you remember the March of 2020 We're sitting there going.
01:03:40: What do we do? Yeah, you know, is this stuff gonna kill everybody if we meet on Sunday?
01:03:47: Are we gonna be killing half our congregation, you know this kind of stuff and You know in hindsight, we made the right decision, but none of us have been running around writing books going
01:03:59: We knew we knew No, we didn't And we've we've never claimed we just said, you know
01:04:06: We just don't see that there's we have certain priorities and the Ministry of the Word and the
01:04:11: Lord's Supper And so we made the decisions we did But don't turn us into prophets for that.
01:04:17: We were just trying to you know, be consistent with the commitments very made But we could be really looking at You know, we had a
01:04:26: Rhino Republican back then. Can you imagine if we had the the nutcase governor? We've got now
01:04:34: I I can see a pendulum swing going back to the direction that will expose very quickly the fact.
01:04:41: This is a divided nation Sure, and what's gonna happen to the church?
01:04:46: When real per if real persecution comes, you know, you're supposed to be a post -millennialist I I know but there are valleys and there are dips and we've been there before and If we're in a culture that God has decided
01:04:59: I'm going to make this I'm going to bring judgment upon secularism and I'm gonna demonstrate
01:05:05: I'm gonna put that enemy under Christ's feet We may have to live with that situation and and how we respond to it
01:05:14: What's gonna happen now in compare look at the church in 2019 in Comparison to today look at the reformed
01:05:23: Movement in 2019 in comparison to today It is fractured now in some ways that might be a good thing because you're exposing people that weren't really
01:05:34: Right. I agree weren't really there But there is there is a fracturing now and there would be very different responses.
01:05:43: I think that kind of persecution pressure then there would have been only five or six years ago and So that that's what
01:05:54: I'm I'm thinking about is that it's one thing to be dealing with this now with Trump in office but What if it's
01:06:03: President Gavin Newsom Yikes Pete Buttigieg. Oh, oh
01:06:10: I I Can't even I can't even begin to imagine Any Orthodox Christianity will be?
01:06:18: Summarily outlawed. I Mean the the things that are going on in Colorado and California like those will become commonplace.
01:06:25: Yep Yeah, and it's happening in Europe. It's not happening all across Europe right now. Yeah, it is and that's that's
01:06:31: I mean My wife is is gonna is taking a trip over to Europe in a couple weeks
01:06:39: She had always hoped while she was working that once she retired she'd get to come with me Going over to Europe the way
01:06:46: I was going over to Europe all the time You know, I spent two months in London in 2019. Okay, so but that didn't work out because now
01:06:54: I drive an RV and so she's she's gonna get to go over there and I showed her a video of a bunch of Muslims on The bridge big band in the background the eye over here and they're doing this strange ritual on the bridge there in London and I ran that bridge
01:07:16: I learned that if you get up, it's before sunrise in London You can run all over downtown
01:07:23: London and there'll be nobody there Nobody nobody to get in the way it
01:07:28: I had so much fun running because I was still running back then in London you can't do that now and When I think of the debates that I did over there in the churches in the mosques,
01:07:41: I couldn't do that today Not under the current not under the current government. No way
01:07:47: Could I say the things that I said back then now in Europe? so I'm glad we got to do that when we got to do that because and That's what our leftists look to they want us to be
01:08:01: Europe that that's that's that's what they want And that's what they're gonna be pushing for. So Yeah, we pray for repented and their pursuit of that objective as well.
01:08:11: Sure Yep, it's this culture of death and it's it's it has not gone anywhere
01:08:17: We seem to think though. Oh after after the election. No, these people are just as convinced as ever.
01:08:23: They're even becoming more radical And Yeah, I was yeah, I agree.
01:08:29: I we've said this, you know for whatever reason God's blessed us with At least two years of more freedom
01:08:35: Yeah, hopefully for but like we need the church to take advantage of that not sit on our rumps and do nothing with it
01:08:41: It's a gift. It's it's then we need to not just you know, bury it in the sand and we need to multiply it.
01:08:46: So And yeah, I was I was listening to some Some podcast yesterday,
01:08:51: I think oh it was Tom Holman on Sean Ryan and I was a good show anyways, um yeah, they were saying like the the you know, the leftists the liberals they're just Instead of like admitting where they lost the election.
01:09:07: They're just doubling down like you just said and just becoming you know more even vile and determined to to win their cause and So yeah, you're you're absolutely right in that for sure
01:09:19: Yeah You can't this is the I don't care what
01:09:24: Stephen Wolfe says about the word world view if you can't recognize that This is a worldview issue that this is absolutely starting place foundational basic stuff that secular secularism cannot provide a foundation for freedom and liberty cognitive liberty and Unfortunately people on our side are buying into kinds of authoritarianism,
01:09:54: I mean If you've not seen the in the Catholic integralists online
01:10:00: They are. Oh, yeah, they're the Catholic version of our wild -eyed
01:10:06: Christian nationalists There are a lot of them out there they were totally excited that Vance Was meeting with Leo the 14th and you know doing all that all this kind of stuff and This stuff's this stuff wasn't big in 2020 but it is now and so if Something happens in the future to where it's there's another
01:10:33: Pandemic or whatever, you know, whatever Emergency they come up with I'm not sure where we are in our ability to be able to respond to this stuff
01:10:44: I think we're gonna have much less unity You know, you'll remember that a certain minister up in Ogden, Utah Made the comment a number of months ago that for people like Doug Wilson and James White They were relevant for a minute during kovat, but their time has passed
01:11:05: So that means we won't be relevant next time around I suppose they will be
01:11:11: But There's not gonna be the same kind of response Because there has been a massive fracturing that has taken place and I I think that's purposeful.
01:11:19: Yeah, you're just a bill of system I'm just a what bill assists. Yes. Yes. Well Let's not go there.
01:11:28: I Know sorry Here the show and I opened up another can there you opened up a big can of worms.
01:11:35: Yeah, so Anyways, well, hey, I'm I'm thankful I had the opportunity to do this
01:11:40: I I never ever dreamed When I walked into st.
01:11:47: Cyprian Roman Catholic Church with my little wife We had only been married for Seven years,
01:11:56: I think at that point in time in August of 1990 and There was we were like the only there of a few members of PR BC had driven over this is over in San Diego For my first debate with Jerry Maddox August of 1990 if you had told me then that over the next 35 years
01:12:20: I Would be doing debates in mosques in South Africa Be debating people like Bart Ehrman John Dominic Crossan Marcus Borg John Shelby Spong Or that I'd be debating someone who believe the things that Cory Mahler believes
01:12:41: I Think I probably would have moved out of the country. I would have
01:12:46: I would have done a Jonah thing Let me out of here. I can't imagine that this would ever ever happen and That that was that was it was not something you could ever imagine
01:12:57: But the scripture says be ready in season out of season if you're given Certain gifts and abilities you need to exercise them when you can
01:13:07: At my age. I get to pick what debates I do. I got nothing to prove.
01:13:12: That was that was number 198 for crying out. Oh, okay, so I got nothing to prove to anybody so I get to pick and choose
01:13:21: To do the debates that I think are gonna have the most long -term relevance But I saw this as being super relevant because I saw what it what it means to the church
01:13:31: Sure. Yeah what it means pastorally and that You know Apologia Alvin Omega Alvin Omega has never tried to be a church.
01:13:43: We've always resisted any kind of temptation that direction, but we've always seen ourselves as servants of the church and When apologia does the church and does apologetics those things are obviously
01:13:59: Intimately connected with one another. So that's where the that's where the obvious connection is and the influence that I had in in on Jeff and stuff like that even in the in the early years of the church
01:14:10: So when you see something like this and it is clearly impacting the church then. Yeah as distasteful as it is you got to address it and Do I want to do more debates on this subject not really
01:14:24: But look if if some if some person came along and tried to make some type of Exegetical argument,
01:14:32: I guess what I was saying Colossians chapter 3. I'll take it on You know, you know that that's that's something that would be worthwhile doing
01:14:41: Do I want to be doing other stuff? Yes Do I want to be doing stuff that has a broader?
01:14:48: Scope yeah. Yeah, but you know, sometimes you have to put that stuff off and get your hands dirty and That's what this kind of stuff is.
01:14:57: Do you have anybody lined up for the big 200 yet? Um No The way things are looking right now.
01:15:05: I have I have a gut feeling that 200 is just going to be sort of a regular debate that I can't avoid
01:15:16: You know doing because I'm traveling Gotcha. I I know what
01:15:22: I would like to do for it But there are too many opportunities
01:15:29: Between now and the end of the year That I'm not gonna turn down just to hold 200 off, you know, because look
01:15:37: I Can't even remember all my debates anymore. Okay, I can't
01:15:43: I had done I did a Really worked hard to come up with a list. I think I at the time I had like a hundred and forty five and So I've kept track of that since then but I can't go back and remember the what's in the hundred and forty five
01:15:56: Oh, I don't know. There are some of them. There's one guy. He was an attorney.
01:16:01: He was good. He was an Armenian They never recorded it So I don't even have it and there are some listed on the website at a omen org
01:16:11: That I don't include as debates and I think that one's at like 196 or something like that so, you know
01:16:20: It's at least I'm not pulling an arrogant canner And when
01:16:26: I say that most people are left going what do you know what that means? That's it. Yeah, that seems like that was 40 years ago.
01:16:34: No, it wasn't It really wasn't that was like That was 2010 to like 2014, so that was a little over 10 years ago
01:16:44: But you know, he was a guy that you know massively inflated. He just made stuff up. Yeah, I'm not having to do that But I do have some big debates.
01:16:53: I would like to do fairly soon Because I don't know I'll be honest with you.
01:16:59: I'm getting older. I'm wearing hearing aids right now And I'm not gonna say anything good.
01:17:05: That's nice of you The my memory is just not as good as it once was so I think
01:17:12: I got enough people around me that when it's time for me to Retire from doing that that they'll tell me
01:17:19: We're not gonna let you go full Joe Biden. Don't worry. Yeah Can you see
01:17:26: Joe Biden doing theological debates It'd be fun to watch it would it would be a
01:17:32: YouTube winner. No two ways about it But anyway, yeah, so well, we'll see. We'll see but I do expect
01:17:40: You guys I'm gonna tell you this right now. I expect a big honking fancy Mexican restaurant celebration for number 200.
01:17:52: All right, my friends need to Rio, you know I love cafe
01:17:57: Rio bro. Don't hate on cafe Rio. Okay, I didn't say cafe Rio I like I was making sure
01:18:03: I understood what you were No, there are there are nicer Mexican restaurants that we could go to there's plenty here ponchos
01:18:11: Did you ever go to poncho? I did go to ponchos. Oh, yeah ponchos. I didn't raise raise the little
01:18:17: Mexican flag Yeah Yeah, when you needed more Topa P is such fond memories of going to ponchos as a kid going to Bookman's across the plaza
01:18:27: Yep to like look at comics magazines all that stuff. They're gone. No ponchos is gone. Okay.
01:18:32: Yeah They moved it over to alma school Near where Fiesta Mall used to be.
01:18:38: Yeah, there used to be an Indian school right near PRBC. It's it's burned down like 47 times
01:18:45: It's it's sad, but you know Garcia's or something like that, you know someplace with chips and salsa, you know
01:18:52: We'll do it something like that that that would that be helpful because my riding stuff my family doesn't care a bit about I'm about to hit a hundred and seventy five thousand miles on the bike and They they won't buy me a cupcake to celebrate that so they won't they won't
01:19:08: So the 200 debate thing, that would be that would be sort of fun to do. So anyway, we'll do something
01:19:14: Alright, well, hey, thanks guys. I think everything worked out just fine and Like I said,
01:19:23: I don't know if I'll ever do another debate like this I I think I'll leave that to you guys to do when when when you guys gonna start doing some some debates
01:19:31: You know me and Jeff we've I mean look at the two that Jeff and I have done. They're famous You know, we almost got down patients.
01:19:39: I don't have the patience you guys have I would just be like throwing things and pulling my beard out.
01:19:45: I couldn't yeah, I mean I I guess you could say a debate on the street evangelism
01:19:52: Whatever from time to time, but I'm gonna need one of your courses first. Yeah Hey, you're the next you're the next your next generation guys, you got it.
01:20:02: You got to step up We got to keep gotta keep this going. So So we'll we'll definitely challenge for you.
01:20:08: All right, I'll take that to heart. All right guys. Well, I appreciate I'm not sure I don't have a clue how we're gonna close this out.
01:20:15: Yeah Gabe will stay out of my on our end here when we get off with him because I I got a mention responses real quick And talk about what's going on.
01:20:22: All right. Okay, so so rich you'll be able to All right Thank you for joining us guys, and I'll let you jump over to your thing and do your stuff and I guess bye
01:20:36: Thanks, brother. God bless. We'll see ya All right. Well, that was fun it's always good to get a chance to And I meant what
01:20:46: I said before Of all of everybody who preaches an apology, which is primarily it would be me or Jeff or Luke or one of the two
01:20:58: Zach's The most positive comments that I hear from my wife as far as the content of preaching it's always that kind of Okay, fine
01:21:15: She's just trying to keep me humble which is not difficult to do women are very good
01:21:22: Anyway, you see my shirt personal stalker Sophie and she is and when we first got her
01:21:31: I got I rescued her from PetSmart and My wife's first impression of her was she has judgy eyes
01:21:41: She has judgy eyes This is But and she's a tortie, so yeah, it actually sort of fits but anyway
01:21:50: All right. There you go. I have no earthly idea what we're doing next week And that's perfectly fine because that takes us back to a normal schedule for a while Again the next big trip will be
01:22:05: Starting pretty much July 4th. Actually July 5th. I will I will be home to help
01:22:12: Try to keep the animals from losing their minds on July 4th we fireworks are legal in Arizona Which means that?
01:22:23: Well, it's been legal here for a long time And some of the stuff that they allow people to buy
01:22:30: I think is just insane and when you're when your windows are rattling You think that's that's stupid.
01:22:36: Anyways, we'll be heading to Conway, Arkansas again Apologetics You want to take that class through Grace Bible Theological Seminary, it'll be the second weekend in July So get in touch with them about that and then heading to Colorado.
01:22:55: So I need I know One of the conferences
01:23:02: I'm doing in Dolores We just need to get graphics put together for that. I need to talk with the pastor there and Then we haven't actually finished everything up as to what we're gonna be doing up in the
01:23:13: Denver area But we will be doing something Denver. We are looking for a debate there and We're looking for a debate in Tullahoma in September and a debate in St.
01:23:28: Charles, which has never worked out But we're hoping that since this will be the 25th anniversary of my going there every year for 25 years
01:23:36: So we can work out a debate. That would be 201 right there. So We'll see, you know, but you can try for debates and not necessarily get them.
01:23:46: So We will see you from there. All right You make it happen by supporting the ministry travel fund everything else