Position vs Experience — Robert B. Thompson

For all your wonderful love to us. Thank you Lord. Makes me think of Bob Porcelli Lord. I pray your hand will be on him. Keep him in Singapore. Bring him back safely. Bring Audrey back safely. Lord, we're looking to you for Jack Hose.

Lord that he'll be alright and recover. Praise your name. And the little girl that Bill mentioned was praying Lord a four-year-old child. We pray you'll be with her Lord heal her from this diarrhea.

Lord we thank you. We have had so many answers to prayer in our families Lord. We just appreciate it. Just thank you Lord. We pray that You'll be with with us tonight. Hear the prayers that are here the burdens Lord.

We had our prayers with them. We pray Lord that you will be with those in tape land and those of us here that will Will pursue that which is of your will Lord that everyone will get something that they need.

We ask and thank you in Jesus name. Amen. Okay, we'll start then with Eddie's. Where's Dave? All right for those in tape out in the tape our internet address is Forgot what is W w w dot w o r dot o r g.

Position and Experience in Christ

All right. Now we're in week 2 summer session of 97 27 May tape number 3961 handling God's timeless vision. Recommended reading the eternal purpose of God in his timeless vision. God sees us as completed in his son however.

Oftentimes our experience in Christ does not entirely Match up with our position in Christ as described in the scriptures. For example, 2nd Corinthians 5 17. Galatians 2 20. Now first of all because I've got young warriors here.

I want to explain what we're doing here. How many see the word experience you see that up there? It's in italics the second sent us down our experience in Christ second line down. See that and then the next line down says position and that's in the funny letters that lean over those are called italics.

Okay, you know about that. All right, there's a difference between our experience in Christ. In our position in Christ and that can be explained very simply. God Calls about great things. He says we're new creatures in Christ.

We says that our right hand his right hand. That's our position. But when we look at ourselves We don't see an entirely new Creature and we don't see ourselves at the right hand of God. We don't see ourselves glorified.

We don't see ourselves in Mount Zion and we don't see ourselves sometimes healed. There's a difference between what we see in ourselves now and what God says is true. God says we're new creatures. All things have passed away.

All things are new and all things are of God. But we don't see yet in our personality That all things are of God. Is that right? There's a few things that aren't of God. Okay, but God said if any man be in Christ all things are of God yet.

We look at ourselves and we don't see all things of God. So there's a difference between what God says about our position and What we are actually experiencing. That's got to be very clear. You won't understand what we're doing.

God says great things about us. But when we look at ourselves Mother we are we there yet? No, we're not there yet. And how you how you deal with these two things the difference Is makes a difference on how successful you are in your Christian life.

Because there's ways that you can ways that you can mess up. And so that's what we're talking about in this particular overhead. Ways you can mess up by the fact that what God has said is true and what you see to be true in yourself.

You can mess up on that that's Deeper life teachers have taught that for years. They have different terms for it I call it the position and the experience, but any other terms are acceptable. All right, 2nd Corinthians 5 7.

What does that say? You should know that warriors. That's a key situation there 2nd Corinthians 5 17. Mmm, what's a Chantel? Does that sound like our position in God or our experience that we see you have to go slowly with people people of all ages.

As you think they understand what you're talking about and they're just sitting there being nice. Oh, I see Tara's with us Tara. You have your Bible are you listening about the position in the experience and the young fellow there the Hockey player, okay.

I never did get your name from your dad. What what? Neal Neal jr. Okay. All right. We have soccer players here, but and we have wrestlers here, but they only have one hockey player. Huh? Yeah, all right, what'd you come up with Chantel does that sound like our experience or does it sound like our position in God?

That's our position. All right, and then Galatians 2 20. You also should have memorized What is Galatians 2 20, that's another verse you hear a great deal. What's that say? Then I just say Galatians 2 20.

That's just flashing in your mind. Anybody find it? What does it say? Now Lindley does that sound like your position or your experience you are crucified with Christ true. Nevertheless you are living.

Yet it is not Lindley who is living anymore, but Christ is living in you. Yeah, all right, well, that's good enough. All right, that tends to be our position for a while at least and Paul was giving his testimony.

Sometimes we misunderstand that we say oh goody if I'm a Christian uncrucified of Christ. Paul was talking about his experience and when you read in 2nd Corinthians about the things he went through Being shipwrecked and beaten and everything you can see that Paul was really crucified.

He really had died the death. And he wasn't living anymore. It was Christ is living in him. All right, so those two verses then tell us. They're kind of goals one 2nd Corinthians is what Paul is saying is true of us.

Galatians 2 20 is what Paul was saying is true of himself. But both of them are held up before us as a goal or something We aspire to or like Lindley says we're certainly experiencing it every day. All right one Incorrect way one Incorrect way to respond to God's timeless vision is Textualism.

Textualism, Presumption, and the Gap Between Position and Experience

Tozer uses that term saying a thing is true because the Bible says it is true. Now, you know that that sounds pretty cool. You know, the Bible says truth must be true. How does that work out in? People's thinking Do you have and we see a lot of that today?

And how does that work out and people think the Bible says is true? It's true. The Bible says I'm healed. I'm healed the Bible says I'm Perfect and perfect the Bible says this and the Bible says that therefore it's true of me now Neil jr.

Can you see how that way of saying this is true of me. Because the Bible says it's true. How could that possibly work out wrong? No, thanks. You haven't had enough exposure To really come to grips with this and don't worry.

There's a lot of adults scratching their head me I wonder what I'm talking about. Are we go to the? Faith message That was so popular a few years ago in a lot of that came out of Man by the name of Kenyon who was a local man who is dead now.

He was a pioneer in this thing in which you you say a thing is true. It is true I believe it. I believe it and therefore it's true. I'd a friend really go off that way. Well now let's say that Someone had I remember An actual thing that happened.

We had a young fellow. Well, he wasn't so young either. But he was a man in Bible school and he was a beginning preacher and his son got appendicitis. Now he had always believed in healing and he took this stance.

The Bible says by your stride by his strides we were Healed. Terry you're in the sixth grade. You know what tense Were is. All right, is it future or now or past tense were? But she can't think she's under pressure.

Anybody what tense is that? Now, all right, that's past tense. So here his boy has appendicitis and The Bible says his boy already has been healed. By whose stripes You were healed. Now this was a man who had believed this but it never had been put to the test.

And I'll tell you he was one shook up, dude. I'm here to tell you he didn't know what to do and People have died because They were supposed to take their insulin even children and their parents would be in Christian science, for example and they approach it somewhat differently, but the idea is the same in that it's It's it's split off from reality.

It's a Mental I say it's true mentally and if I don't if I don't see it here, that's not real. What's real is in my mind, which is narcissism. But It's very important because it affects a lot of Christians.

What do you think he finally ended up doing? He took his boy to the hospital and it's a good thing he did too because The boy to probably died see God doesn't honor that. God does not honor that now this may shake your cage a little bit.

But it's not faith. It's presumption. It's the third temptation of Christ jump off the gable because the Bible says He shall bear thee up the he shall bear they the angel shall bear thee up in their hands.

Let's now dash thy foot against the stone. Satan said quoting scripture at Jesus. See, that's where you hear people say step out in faith do great things for God that's fashionable in our culture. But it's not scriptural.

There's no example in the Bible of aggressive faith. That's not faith that's presumption and God will not honor presumption. Okay, now I may surprise you. Because that's kind of a shibboleth among Christian people the Bible says it and so it's so well.

That is not how the Bible works. So you have to find out how to deal with with the gap between position and experience and If you deal with it incorrectly. You make shipwreck of your life. All right, the Bible says we were healed.

True or not. This is true. God's Word is immutably true. But how you appropriate that is another question. Then it's approached and that really isn't that part is not Specifically what Tozer means by textualism, but it's close enough.

What Tozer means by textualism is slightly different from presumptuous faith. What he means is referring to is the Christian penchant for saying I'm I'm a new creature. Because the Bible says so and they're not trying to use it to manipulate God by presumption.

They're just saying the Bible says it so it must be true of me and an awful lot of evangelical thinking is Textualism that's what Tozer said of you a miracle of Evangelicals ever get delivered from textualism because you can see that textualism is not reality.

Another form of textualism. Which is historic historical I should say it's historic and historical. Is the idea of a state of grace and you may have heard that expression now, that's not new that that's a Belief of Christians for hundreds of years that the Christian is in a state of grace.

Something that the Bible for example says you are accepted in the beloved therefore I'm accepted in the beloved and I go into a mental state. That the Bible declares to be true or so we think but it does not result in the transformation of Personality.

Now this this state of grace thing and this textualism a thing is true of me because the Bible says it is true and. Then three trying to force things to come about because quote the Bible says so My God shall supply all your needs.

So a pastor has a need to pay the mortgage so he writes a $5 ,000 check and Cashes it when he doesn't have it in the bank. Because the Bible says my God shall supply all your needs and if you don't think that Christians don't do this you're mistaken they do do it and so these three forms of Schizophrenia because that's really what they are.

They're split off from reality. Maybe a better term would be Gnosticism. Gnosticism comes from the first century and it means that salvation comes from a set of beliefs and that the physical world is not a real world what the real world is in your beliefs and.

This greatly affected the early church. Some of the early Christians became Gnostic because they couldn't see the difference Between say for example Romans 10 9 and 10 for by That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead.

They couldn't see the difference between that and Gnosticism because Gnosticism says you're saved by what you believe and That's so close to Christianity. Although there is an uncrossable gulf between them.

But the church has not spotted this and even as late as a year and a half ago David Wilkerson said The church never has really been clear about the difference between God's responsibility and our responsibility so this problem of the position and the experience.

How you deal with God who works on a timeless vision? Makes a great deal of difference in Your success and your testimony. In fact the Christian Church the testimony of the Christian Church. Which is from God's standpoint one of the most important aspects of the Christian Church because God intends Through the church to show not only angels But the nations of the earth his person his will his way and his eternal plan in Christ Jesus.

And that that's the testimony of the church that tells a lot of things that testimony has been almost completely destroyed by these three ways of incorrectly approaching the difference between the experience and The position.

And by the way kids this is on tape and so your parents are here your parents here. Michelle is their own parent. Martha's parents are here. So you might want to play that over and explain to them because it's not some academic thing out here somewhere be nice.

The Church’s Witness and the Need for Transformation

But we need to get back to the real business of finding how to communicate with our teenagers. We're talking about the massive Intervention of God in our time to explain what has not been clear in 2 ,000 years.

The church has not borne testimony the world is cynical. The Catholic Church has not born tonight speaking in generalities there are marvelous exceptions, but the Catholic Church has not borne a good testimony to the world throughout the centuries that has played politics for what fought wars and and tortured and and Killed heretics, that's no testimony of Jesus Christ and the Protestants haven't done any better.

Because the Catholics are hung up on their on their Liturgy and their penances and so on and the Protestants are hung up on this state of grace thing and both of them serve Satan's end destroy the testimony and so God is intervening in this day in which we live and he is explaining to us.

What has gone wrong? With Christian thinking that it has made the church in America for example an object of cynicism and scorn. We got ministry all over the place. But the witness is dead. We have ministry all over the place everybody's out ministering.

Some people run off with the pastor. And leave his wife and children and they go out and cut gospel records. They're ministering all over the place words of knowledge and everything and they're living on adultery.

I can't figure out what's going on. Because the world isn't interested in the ministry the world's looking for the witness let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and Good works have to do with the experience and when we can't get the experience together with the position.

Then Satan's job is accomplished. We can talk about the rapture going to heaven. We can talk about the mysteries of the faith and even believe in Christ in Romans 10 9 and 10 and it doesn't affect The world and then Satan's not worried about it.

He's worried about people seeing Christ in us his behavior and this is the day and Of course the casting out of demons is a very important part of that. And the growth of Christ is a very important part of that.

And the knowledge of the word is a very important part of that and there's a lot of things that have to come together. But the end result is that we are brought into the image of Jesus Christ and into one trouble rest in God in Christ.

You know those two things image and union and that's what God is after and when we are there Christ will appear with us and the world will believe John 17 21 through 23. Okay, so we're talking right at this time about We just mentioned three incorrect ways.

The church has responded to the gap between the position and the experience between what we are experiencing which is our testimony and what God has said is true of us and we mentioned The state of grace we're in a state of grace.

So we're saved and going to heaven independently of our behavior because we're saved in a state of grace. Which does not exist. That's one of the one of the truisms. It's one of the pillars of the Christian faith for 2 ,000 years and it is absolutely false.

There is no such thing as a state of grace. It does not exist. It's it's it's a it's a Cognitive it's a mental Situation. I'm in a state of grace. What does that mean that God has pronounced upon me that I am accepted of him independently of what I do think of believe?

Or I should say independently of what I do and speak.

I'm in a state of grace. Yes, Larry. Echo hand-in-hand with the teaching of the dispensation of grace.

Yeah, that came from a biblical model called dispensationalism which came into existence in about 1870 in which an Irish Bible teacher by the name of J. N Darby put together a new brand of. It's a mixture of Gnosticism and a few things that he added of his own.

Particularly the rapture that came forth at that time. Which is supposed to be the exodus of the hundred forty four thousand to heaven before the tribulation and now it includes all believers. It was a mishmash that came out of the last century, but they did adopt this Concept of a dispensation grace before that I used to be called a state of grace.

We're in a state of grace and this is of course what every minister will learn in in seminary. Yes. Yeah care of everything and I told you there was a current book written in which a man deep this has got to be a 96 9 1996 publication.

Widely, you know distributed among evangelicals and which the man deplored the things going on in the charismatic church and they're terrible. But as he started out the book, he said now you must recognize this is a Exhortation to the church because in the final analysis we stand in grace.

What he's saying is all this is wrong. But where the rubber hits the road, it's not going to make any difference.

But Dave Hunt, no, it's not saying I don't know the guy's on our Bible answer.

Tape and my purpose here is not to knock people but that but I'm interested in issues and the issue is That what he's saying I mean put it together. If I say to you look, you're a charismatic person and you should not be running off with somebody else's husband we'll say but but you were meant for each other and Your husband is a spiritual klutz.

He's got nothing going and you've met this man that you know that your soul just says this is he. You were created for him and he was created for you and you've had spiritual Experiences in which you were you you found yourself closed up together in a plastic bubble and you were floating away.

I mean you have had the most marvelous and delicious exotic experiences and You've had fleece galore. I mean you've had fleeces come through all over the place. And You go to God and say really this isn't right.

Yes, but I'm making an exception for you. Because this is just for you and don't tell anybody because they will not understand. Keep it in the dark. Satan like stuff kept in the dark. So you're going along and you're being sucked into this thing and you're looking at your husband and your kids and you think this isn't Right.

This is right speak God. Because it feels and then somebody comes to you and says honey you shouldn't do that. But in the last analysis you're saved by grace. What are you liable to do? Now somebody comes to you and says if you forsake your husband and your children You're turning away from the Lord.

You're certainly losing the victor's crown and If you are saved it will be by the most dreadful fire that will last for what will seem Eternities as God burns out of you. You have no reward in the kingdom.

You lose a good part of your personality and if you appear in the kingdom at all You'll appear as a child starting all over again, and you may end up in the outer darkness or worse. And I'll guarantee you this you'll never get that first blush back because once you see it's a love affair with Christ and Once you turn away from Christ you lose that first blush.

Oh you can be saved. But you can go through hell getting that way too. It's worth it to keep out of the lake of fire. Do you see what kind of a difference that's going to make in your behavior? You think boy my husband is a dumb klutz.

That's for true. That's for sure. But I don't want to live in all my life in fear of dying and meeting an angry Christ. But if I say to you grace operates up here, it's abstract. You're in a state of grace.

It's an unconditional amnesty. It came from God and can't be affected by your behavior. You're going to succumb to the wiles of the devil and that is what has happened to the church in America. That's why I say I'm not talking about some Academic thing out here that when I should be down to where we're actually living like, you know.

What's you know, what's the newest thing on the diet scene or? Aerobics or something else I'm talking about God has come to his church in America at least and maybe throughout the whole world and he is saying you're in deception and have been all this time and as I say, there are notable exceptions and there are there are Countless Christians who have been true to God and have left bloody footprints in the snow.

Even though their doctrine was all monkey business and God is not interested in doctrine. God is interested in behavior. So I'm not saying that everybody in the church is going to hell. I'm just saying that because of the demonic pressure in the darkness of our time God wants a clear testimony coming from his church and so he's restoring doctrines so that people can get their feet under them and It will eventually spread to the Christian ministry you mark my words.

But I'm telling you tonight because it's truth and it will and God's interest in it will spread to the Christian ministry. Now I don't say everyone will accept it but some will and it will convert the church before the Lord comes because he's coming for a church without spot a wrinkle and That's not by imputation.

That's by actual deliverance and actual forming of Christ in the individual. Then it's got to be because it's written and we are in this historic time. It's a historic time for us. Don't miss it because when God opens a window, it's open for just so long and and everything of God everything of God.

April Is always an opportunity and it's there and you either take it or you neglect it. And when the window shut it's over. There's a terrible finality to God. Let the wicked remain wicked. Let the righteous remain righteous.

That's when the doors of mercy are closed when that scripture comes into action. There is a dreadful finality about God. He's not a human being and Satan's afraid of this. He's trying to turn mankind against God.

And so the church is going to triumph but it's got to get its doctrine straight because revivals come and then when the when the power lifts the people are back in the pit again because of this Problem of the difference between the position and the experience.

Romans 8:2 and the Sixth Chapter of Romans

All right. Now, how can we? More appropriately Move forward and fulfilling God's vision for our life. How do you think we should approach a thing? Like if any man be in Christ, there's a new creature or a new creation.

Old things have passed away behold, all things Have become new and that's speaking of our personality and all things are of God. Now you can see that's beyond the most of us certainly beyond me. Oh. All things have become new.

I mean every aspect of your emotions your nervous system and when the Lord comes your body. Everything becomes new. The Word of God is perfect in all its dimensions. And when God says that that is what shall happen and there is no stopping it.

Now here we are. We're washed in the blood. We've had various experiences that have matured us and that we can count on and Yet we would be the first to say That it is not true. That old things have passed away and all has become new and all has become of God.

That's our position in Christ. Now how do we transform that into reality. Larry now we need the chalkboard and we will if the Lord wills. Talk about Romans 8 to that we started Sunday morning and got halfway through.

Because that is the New Covenant. Romans 8 2 is the New Covenant. If you want a good understanding of the Christian Redemption. It's the sixth chapter of Romans and make sure that you know it. Starting off what then shall we sin because we're not.

Because we're under grace and ends up with the wages of sin is death. Which we apply to the unsaved has nothing to do with the unsaved. It's talking about the Christian who lives in the flesh will slay his own resurrection, so get that sixth chapter of Romans and Learn it read it.

It will revolutionize your thinking. It's the best exposition of. The true nature of the Christian Redemption is the sixth chapter of Romans. Okay, that's really wonderful. And what it's saying is that if we Christians.

What the sixth chapter of Romans is saying is if we Christians we're Christians, okay, how many are Christians? Moses here. All right good. If we Christians have a choice that the unsaved do not have.

We have a choice of being a slave of righteousness or being a slave of sin. Let's mention three or four times in that chapter. And then at the end of the chapter, it says if you have chosen to be a slave of righteousness.

The product of that is eternal life. If you choose to be the slave of sin. Then the wages that you're paid are death now. What kind of death. See not physical death because you'll die physically whether you're a slave of righteousness or a slave of sin.

So he's obviously not talking about physical death. Then what death is he talking about? He's talking about the time of the coming of the Lord when you're either resurrected unto life or resurrected unto judgment.

Now you're slaying your own resurrection. When you choose to live to be the slave of sin you are affecting your resurrection. That's what the sixth chapter of Romans about we preach that to the unsaved the wages of sin is death.

It's talking to Christians the chapters about Christians who misunderstand his teaching about grace. He says he preached all this stuff about the law now unless you should misunderstand me if you as a Christian choose To be a slave of righteousness.

You will reap eternal life. That's God's gift to you but if you choose After having been believed and been baptized in water if you then choose to continue in sin. You will be paid off in death spiritual death.

And of course that's repeated many times repeated in Romans 8 8 13 is repeated in Galatians 6 verse 7 it's all this is speaking to Christians and Because of our misunderstanding of the state of grace we have said well that couldn't apply to a Christian.

How could that apply to a Christian? He's saved by grace. Therefore it must apply to the Jews. They come out bad on this Miriam. Or it must apply to the unsaved when the context is obviously talking about Christians.

But we say it conflicts with this idea of the state of grace. So for 2 ,000 years, the Bible has not been understood. It makes no sense. But when you see what it's saying is that Jesus Christ didn't come so that we would have an abstract grace presented to us, but Jesus Christ came to transform us to change us into his image.

Then when Paul gets into verses and says that if you're not if you're not interacting with this process. You're heading for death then it makes perfect sense and you don't have to strain over any verse at all.

It opens up like a ripe melon. Any question about that so far? You had a question.

Salvation, the Kingdom, and the Meaning of “Saved”

Looking for the rapture, let's say the rapture can happen tomorrow, right? Let's say you've been living half-heartedly for God. You're reading your Bible. You're going to church. You're doing some work, but a part of you is fooling around.

Are you going to believe that every part of you is going to be lost for eternity when Christ comes? Are you going to believe that you're going to be completely saved? They feel that you have to have an either-or position.

Well, I think where the problem is. The problem is in definition. See we've had some incorrect definitions. When we say saved we mean go to heaven and that's the problem. That's not what it means to be saved.

That's it. That is what we have always thought it meant to be saved, but you will not find that in the New Testament. Remember Bereans search the scripture to see if it's true. What's the lady that said to me?

I've read it my Bible or you read your Bible and you find in the New Testament. Of course, we know it's not in the old one. Find the New Testament where it says Christ came to bring us to heaven you find that.

Or we're saved to go to heaven. Or so God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that we can go to heaven. Or Jesus is the way to heaven you find those in any of those in the scripture.

They don't exist. Salvation is a process of transformation and when the Lord comes what you are will be revealed. For we must all be revealed. Before the judgment seat of Christ. So the issue is not whether you're Saved or unsaved the issue is your state in the kingdom.

They are you going to enter the kingdom with glorious reward? Are you going to enter in a member Paul said about the man that had committed incest? He says that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So it's not an issue. It's not an either-or thing. It's a. It's a some reap 60 some 30 some 100 some go in as a naked spirit. Some are saved as by fire and that's a terrible thing. I mean the loss of all reward in the kingdom, but you see if you're heaven oriented.

It doesn't matter because you say well as long as I get there. But salvation is not pointing toward a there. It's pointing toward a change in you. It's an altogether different way of approaching it. You have to redefine your terms because as long as you as long as you have a heaven model in your mind.

That's what I'm keep the kingdom teaching will not make sense. Because the kingdom and heaven are not the same thing when Paul said if we sin We will not inherit the kingdom. He was not talking about not inheriting heaven.

That's so hard. I know it's such a metal change. But once you make it, you know. The people used to believe the world was flat and it was a they had a terrible mental change. When somebody come up we were living on top of an orange, you know fall off.

But then you could fall off by sailing off the end of the world like Columbus. See, but people had to make that change. They used to believe tomatoes were poison, but they had to make that change. We used to believe that being saved meant we were going to live in a mansion in heaven.

Now we find the Bible doesn't say that where change is possible. But it can cause an awful uproar if it isn't handled properly. Neil you had another question. Here's the kingdom of heaven. Yeah, oh, yeah.

The reason I know that is because the same parables that Matthew calls the kingdom of heaven the other Gospels call the kingdom of God for example a Parable of the sword and Matthew is called a parable of the kingdom and Lucas called a parable Of the kingdom of God, so I know some have made a point of this.

But nowhere does the Bible teach that there are two kingdoms. Kingdom is never plural. Also, there's no such thing as a Gentile Church that that is something you'll see. There's no scripture. There's no there's only the one olive tree.

So when you get it, right, it's really simple and it makes the whole Bible make sense. But the current mythology you have to have books to help you understand the Bible. I Think but we say well, that's for the Jews.