#79 The Messiah Hidden in Plain Sight: Why Israel Missed Jesus + Dr Eric Tully

Prophets are weird. Ezekiel lying on his side for 390 days, eating food cooked over done.

What's all that? It's like these crisis moments when the prophets come. They're addressing systemic sins in the priesthood.

Everyone hated them for it. Okay. I mean, maybe this is obvious, but like the big question here is, is like, the prophets are talking about Jesus.

They're literally describing him, how he's going to show up, what he's going to do. How did Israel fail to recognize

Jesus when he did show up? Politics can skew our understanding of scripture. If we were there, we obviously, we probably would have missed it too.

Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host.

In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding

God easier. These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion.

Now I'm sharing these recorded conversations with you. On this podcast, we talk about the facts, the history, and the translations to make the

Bible make sense so we can get to know God, our creator better. Hi, it's

Cass. I wanted to first start off by saying thank you for listening. I created this because I could not find it anywhere else on the internet, and it takes a very small team and a large upfront investment to make it all possible.

I really hope that you find it valuable. I would never expect anything from my listeners, and I'm always going to do my best to first outsource support from brands.

However, if you do find value in this episode, I invite you to contribute an amount equal to the value that you have received, either through a one -time or a monthly donation linked in the show notes below.

I understand that not everyone though can donate monetarily. So I ask that if you love

Biblically Speaking and you cannot donate, please show your support by subscribing to this channel wherever you're listening so that it tells the hosting platform to show

Biblically Speaking to more curious and confused Christians. In exchange for the support, I personally promise to you to always create the highest quality production possible.

Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello. This is Biblically Speaking, and I'm your host,

Cassie Abellino. Really excited about today's topic of prophets, prophecy, and why did they recognize

Jesus when he showed up initially? Why was there so much confusion? We're going to put it in context, and just the overall language of prophets and how it doesn't make sense when we read it.

How should we read it today? Mostly because Jesus fulfilled prophecy. He healed. He taught. He suffered. And this is exactly how it was stated in the

Old Testament. So when he showed up and started doing it, why didn't people recognize him? How could the entire nation miss their own

Messiah? We're going to talk about it, but in context. So welcome to Biblically Speaking.

We're going to ask these questions where you wish you could in church. So many times I wish I could raise my hands in church, but we have

Dr. Eric Tully, the professor of Old Testament and director of the PhD program for theological studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Prior to Trinity, though, you were teaching at University of Wisconsin -Madison and Nashatoah House Theological Seminary.

Your research is on prophetic literature, Hebrew linguistics, textual criticism. You wrote a book about it.

And basically what that all means is you know how the prophets spoke and how we can understand it today in our own language.

So we're going to be looking at some of the verses, some of the wonky things that prophets were doing, how we should take that literally or symbolically, and then based on their understanding of how they spoke and understood what they really thought when

Jesus showed up. So welcome to the show, Dr. Tully. Thanks so much for having me here today. Great to be with you.

And this is an exciting topic. It's actually one of the reasons that I originally felt a call to go into full -time study of the

Old Testament. I loved the prophets and I knew they were important, but I didn't feel like I was,

I didn't feel like I had the tools in church growing up to understand the prophets well.

And so, yeah, one of the reasons I think went into full -time study of the

Old Testament was to understand the prophets and then help other people do that. So I'm really glad to be with you today to have this conversation.

I'm grateful for the opportunity. I mean, it sounds like we kind of have the same, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought they were like oracles. I truly thought prophets were like oracles that saw the future.

It just never made sense to me. You know, I watch movies like 300 and I'm like, oh, so that's a prophet, but it's not at all like that.

And I mean, the deeper we get into this, I feel like I've fallen in love with prophets like Elijah and Elisha and just the way they work is so different.

And you know, what does that look like today? So there's so much misunderstanding of like what role they played and why they worked that way and how they got that way.

But what I, yeah, I mean, let's just jump into it. So prophets are weird. I mean, I think we can say that they have a very strange language and they say some things that are just so insane to us, just like in modern language.

And I feel like this is a great conversation between what was weird back then and what is weird now.

Like, were they saying things that back then people were like, that checks out, you know, that makes sense. But like, for example,

I have a couple examples here, Ezekiel lying on his side for 390 days, eating food cooked over done.

What's all that? Why is Isaiah walking around barefoot and naked for three years?

Like, was this just something to do? Was that noble? What do you think when you read that?

Was there like a change when you first read it versus after your studies? Hmm. Yeah. Well, I think we have to remember that I agree that the prophets do seem pretty weird.

And I think the reason that they do is because they are living, first of all, in a very different time and culture than we are.

Totally. You have to remember that they're, you know, cities back then were very small.

Today, we might even call them towns, right? Even a big city for us would be very tiny, highly agricultural.

High tech for them is, you know, bronze. So they, you know, it's just a very different culture.

And also, when you look at when the prophets were serving in the

Old Testament, sort of chronologically, you find that most of the prophetic activity is at like very intense times of Israelite history.

You know, at the time of the divided kingdom period, or at the time of the fall of the

Northern Kingdom, or the time of the fall of Jerusalem in the Southern Kingdom, or in the exile, or coming back from exile.

It's these critical moments in Israel's history when

God is doing a lot, and the people are sort of being held accountable, you know, for their actions.

And it's like these crisis moments when the prophets come. So, you know, I think that also contributes to the intensity that we find in these pages.

And then, you know, I think a third thing is, not only is their culture quite different than ours in general, but, you know, even in language, there are different expressions, there are different metaphors, there are different figures of speech, and so all of that can just seem quite different.

But yeah, you mentioned, you know, one of the crazier actions of Isaiah, you know, we're told that Isaiah, you know, walked around naked.

Ezekiel was told to cook his food over human dung. Jeremiah...

Were those like idioms? Were those metaphors, or was that like a literal... No, as I understand it, what we get in the prophetic books is a combination of narrative, the actions of the prophet, and also the oracles or the speeches of the prophet, and those are combined together into the prophetic book.

And no, I take it to be historical. And I mean,

I think it's important to remember that we are hearing the instructions to do these things.

And so we're able to benefit as readers from kind of imagining these things in our minds.

But we see similar things going on in Elijah and Elisha.

We see similar sort of the competitions between Jeremiah and the false prophet.

So I think that these were real things that they did. And we call them prophetic sign acts.

And that's where they use some sort of an object lesson, or they acted things out in order to really effectively engage their listeners.

Okay. So when they, you know, let's picture Ezekiel, you know, cooking his food over dung.

Um, was this like a public act? You know, was this something where people heard of it or they saw and they understood the metaphor?

Or do you feel like prophets did this and then had to be like, so I did this because of this and they had to explain it?

Or was it understood in culture? Like how much was being translated in a way that people saw what they were doing and understood why they were doing it?

Well, indications are that it was public. Sometimes at the national level, sometimes maybe the prophet was acting this out in front of a local gathering.

For example, let's see, I've got my Bible software open here and I'll pull up Ezekiel chapter 12.

This is an interesting example. Uh, coordinates. Oh, okay.

I got it. Yeah. I have, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, yeah.

So Ezekiel chapter 12, um, the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel and says, you know, prepare for yourself and exile's baggage and go into exile by day in their sight, you shall go like an exile from one place to another.

Perhaps they will understand. So, so he keeps using this expression in their sight, right? This is something that Ezekiel is supposed to act out in front of the, in front of his listeners.

And he's supposed to pack his bags, make kind of make a big show of this, packing his bags, actually digging through the wall to make his escape.

And then, and then saying, okay, see you guys. And kind of leaving town and then coming back.

And it says, um, in verse seven, I did as I was commanded. I brought my baggage or my, you know, my luggage or whatever out of my house by day during the day.

Um, like I was going into exile and in the morning, um, God says that, that the, the house of Israel said to him, what are you doing?

And then God tells him what he's supposed to respond to that.

So this is just one example, but I, I think it's an indication that the people didn't always understand what the prophet was doing.

Right. And in this case, Ezekiel acts this out and everyone's watching him. Um, and then they're like, what, why are you packing?

Why are you pretending to pack your bags and go into exile? And Ezekiel says, you know, I'm glad you asked. It's because right now, um, you know,

Jerusalem is still standing, you know, Ezekiel and his people are in, his listeners are in exile, but Jerusalem meanwhile was still standing, but he was predicting that in the future, the people of Jerusalem would also go into exile.

So you get the same, same type of situation with, um, you know,

Jeremiah and his rotten belt. Yeah. He's told, he's told to, you know, take a linen belt and hide it in the ground where it's muddy.

And then go back later and it's all rotten. And you know, and then people are like, why, why is your belt rotten?

And he's like, because this is what you're like, you know, you're, you're supposed to be an ornament for God. You're supposed to be something that makes

God look good. And, and instead you're like a rotten belt. You're corrupted by your sin.

So it's almost like begging for the questions, like, please ask so I can explain it. I think so. Yeah.

It's, um, you know, the prophets had a hard job. It was, it was, they were often speaking very unpopular, um, unpopular things and, and, and they weren't punching down, right.

They were often punching up to those who were in power, to, to the priesthood who was running the religious structures and to, uh, government officials and to the wealthy who were used to making things happen and people who were getting their own way.

And, and, and they were saying like, here, here's, here's a confrontation. You're doing what's wrong.

You're, you're abusing the poor, you're engaged in sexual sin, you're murdering people.

And, and people didn't want to hear that. And, um, often the prophets were announcing, announcing judgment, which ran afoul of the political circumstances of the day.

And, and so for, for a variety, variety of reasons, it was, it was a tough job.

In fact, Jeremiah tells us kind of over and over again in the book, you know, you know, man,

I wish I didn't have this job. Right. He complains to God. He's like, why, I don't want to be a prophet.

I'm tired of, I'm tired of telling people things that they don't want to hear. Um, but then he uses that famous expression when he says, but it's like a fire within me and I can't,

I can't stop. I can't stop from speaking. Like, this is what I have to do to obey. So, no, you know,

Jeremiah didn't even want to do it and, and, but he had to. Yeah. Wow. That's such an insane way to spread the word of God.

I feel like you don't see that quite often anymore of people doing things that are obviously, I want to say ridiculous in a way to catch attention.

So they have a chance to explain it in a way that like shows God. And, you know, we kind of, we say that convenient times, we say it in safe spaces, but that's what they were doing back then.

You know, um, well, it's a, you know, it's an, we have to remember that it's an oral culture and so, um, you know, oral speeches and, and everything that goes along with that were extremely important to them.

We've lost a bit of that. You know, we've, we've kind of, we've kind of gone in our society, gone through a phase where we were highly text based, you know, maybe a hundred years ago.

And now we're getting back to visual with video and YouTube and Snapchat and things like that.

And so societies have different modes of communicating. And I think in an oral culture, um, you know, they used a number of different strategies.

Yeah. They, they, they used a lot of different strategies with like metaphors and surprise endings and, and these kinds of sign acts to get people's attention.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like there are some things today that people can talk about and it's like out of context.

Like I, the first thing that comes to head, which is dumb is like six, seven, like, that's just like the new thing of like, it could be either, or same thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm not even like understanding it correctly, but you know, you a hundred years from now, they read six, seven, they're going to be, what is going on?

Are they counting? You know, is there instances in the text where we're reading that? We're like, what are they talking about?

But they, at the time would have been like, yeah, we know exactly what that means. Are there examples in the text? Like, for example, I will make your forehead as hard as Flint.

Was that like hardheaded stiff neck? Like, is that just like some slang that they were referencing?

You know, like put me as if I was there, you know, translate it. Can you do a 2000 year translation?

Some texts that maybe prophets were using that totally go over our heads. Yeah, I did.

I have searched that before that expression. And I think that's the only case in the

Bible where we have that expression, your forehead as hard as Flint. I think it means stubbornness.

I guess that's the way we use the expression hardheaded as well. Some of the metaphors in the old

Testament transfer over to the ways that we use them. But yeah, so some of it, some of, you know, metaphors are highly contextual.

They come out of, they come out of culture, they come out of our experiences. You know, an apple a day keeps the doctor away, you know, that would be like a proverb or a metaphor like, you are my sunshine.

Right. Or he has a heart as cold as stone, you know. So some of these things are based on just the regular experiences that we have in the world.

And then some of them are highly dependent on our particular culture. Oh, totally.

We don't use, I don't know if we use Flint. But for them, that would have been something that was very hard.

So some of it comes out of their cultural experiences that are different than ours. And then some of it comes out of the

Hebrew language, which is different than ours as well. So, yeah, so the prophets do say things that don't, you know, when we translate that into English, it doesn't really come across.

For example, in Jeremiah 34, 17,

God says to Jeremiah, or God says through Jeremiah to the people of Judah, you have not obeyed me by freeing your slaves.

So I'm going to give you freedom to experience death and plague and famine.

Right. So it's a little bit, a little bit of sarcasm there. But it's also kind of a play on words on the word freedom.

Right. I'm going to give you the freedom to experience terrible things. Right. Because you're not freeing your slaves.

Um, that comes across in English. Okay. But then there's another example in Jeremiah where God says to Jeremiah, Jeremiah, what do you see?

And Jeremiah sees, says, I see an almond branch. And God says, and in the same way,

I am watching over my word. Now, when you read that in English, you're like, okay, that doesn't really make any sense.

But in Hebrew, the word almond branch is the Hebrew word shakad.

And the word for watching over that God is going to do is the word shokad.

So that's a play on words in Hebrew. Right. And you can only see it or hear it in Hebrew. Uh, in English, it doesn't really make any sense, but, but God is using the almond branch as a part of this, this analogy or this expression to talk about, you know, watching to wait for his, his word to be fulfilled.

So, so sometimes there's things like that, where if you're reading it in Hebrew, it, it makes better sense of what the prophets are doing.

They're trying to render that in English somehow. Okay. Yeah. I, I feel like I, maybe some of this would make more sense if I was like culturally there and like could experience some, some of their day to day life, but it seems like there's not a really big jump between what they were saying and how we understand it today.

Like there's not a few things that understanding it in context would kind of change the color of the whole text, um, that they did a pretty good job translating it.

But, okay. So kind of moving forward, prophecy, now that I've understood it, you know, I've had conversations about this with Dr.

Gary Yates and kind of like what you've already said, like they're not fortune telling, they're not telling the future.

It was really God communicating through symbols, through idioms and performance art,

I guess we could say, you know, with them lying on their side and walking around naked. But in first and second

Peter one 21, sorry. Uh, it says men spoke from God as if they were carried along by the

Holy spirit. So I guess we could like picture what that looks like, but the

Holy spirit wasn't like writing through them like a typewriter. Like he was working through their culture. He was working through the humor.

He's working through their language. So how was like the Holy spirit shaping the way that they were delivering their message?

And how can we kind of interpret that of like man versus Holy spirit? You know, like it's, it's one of those communications that like, how did that work?

Running my own podcast? I'm always moving too fast. I'm finding guests. I'm editing episodes. I'm creating reels or guesting on other shows.

Not to mention, I just live in a world that moves fast notifications, trends, endless to do list. You know, what feels like a blessing and all that slowing down.

I love nothing more than a moment to pause, be present and choose something timeless.

That's exactly what dwell label is all about. When I first discovered dwell label, it wasn't just about the clothes.

It was about a mindset, thoughtful, intentional fashion that doesn't scream for attention, but instead invites you to slow down.

Their pieces are modern takes on classic styles made to last not just for the season, but for years.

I love that I can throw on a dwell label outfit for editing in a coffee shop, Bible studies, or looking professional in an interview.

It always feels right. Comfortable, effortless, elevated. And here's the best part. Dwell label does not just talk about rest.

They live it. Their website literally doesn't work on Sundays because they believe in pausing and dwelling what matters most.

So if you're looking for high quality, timeless fashion, that aligns with a lifestyle of intention and presence,

I can't recommend dwell label enough. Shop dwell label with the link in the show notes and use my code VIVSPEAK15 V -I -V -S -P -E -A -K -15 for an exclusive discount at checkout.

Take a breath, slow down and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. Yeah. Well, um,

I think the perhaps the most important passage in the old testament to talk about the way that this worked is

Deuteronomy 18. Um, uh, not the whole passage, but if we start, for example, in Deuteronomy 18 verse nine,

God, God says through Moses that when the people of Israel, um, come into the promised land, they are going to experience all kinds of practices that the nations use in order to try and get information from the divine world.

Right. So they, they want, they want special knowledge or they want word from a word from the gods to help them know what to do or what not to do, or, uh, to give them some sort of special insight or special advantage, you know, perhaps in war or in business or know who to marry or whatever.

And, and he, and he, he mentions, uh, in Deuteronomy 18, nine and following, he mentions divination, fortune telling, omens, sorcery, magic.

And then he says, everyone who does these things as an abomination and that they are absolutely prohibited from, from doing any of these things.

And the reason I think that is, is that, um, you do these things when you want to, it's on your terms, you know, you, you, you do the right ritual and you get, you get the word.

Right. So, so in other words, like, let's say I have a particular question I want to ask, there, there's a kind of divination called ecstasy, which in the ancient world, and that's where, you know, you, you, you have some priests, uh, who have these special skills and they, they have a, they have a, like a sheep and they do these rituals and they kind of pray over the sheep and they ask the

God a question and then they kill the sheep and they cut it open and they look at its lung or they look at its kidney and they, and they see whether there's any kind of, any kind of abnormality or any kind of discoloration.

And then they, based on, you know, it's almost like reading tea leaves, except you're reading the organs of this sheep.

And, and based on that, you say, okay, that's the answer to my question. Right. But it's on your terms. You're the one that's taking the initiative.

You're, you're, you're getting knowledge out of the divine word world, whether or not the gods even want to tell it to you.

Right. If you, if you do the right ritual, you're going to get it. And God says, that's not how

I operate. Right. I don't, we're not going to play that game. You are completely prohibited from, from that.

Not only because it's, it's asking questions of other gods, but because it's on, it's, it's up to you.

It's on your own terms. Instead, instead, he says in verse 15, this is how

God's going to do it. He says, I'm going to raise up for you a prophet. And it's to him, you shall listen.

And I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak all that I command him.

And so it's not, when we think about prophecy, it's not magic or divination or folk religion.

It's not a direct conversation where God is, God is directly speaking to the people.

And why is that? Well, that's because God is holy. And if, you know, as we see in the

Pentateuch, if people get too close to God, he kills them for it. Right. You can't, you can't interact, you can't see

God or interact directly with God because if you do, you'll die. You're sinful and he's holy.

In fact, it even says that in Deuteronomy 18, he says, you know, the people are afraid and they say, we don't want to hear the voice of the

Lord or we'll die. And, and God says in verse 17, they are right in what they are spoken.

I will raise up a prophet. So, so the prophet, you know, sometimes when we, when we hear the word prophet, we think it's like some crazy thing, but it really just means a spokesman.

It's just a spokesman for God. God gives his message to the prophet. And then the prophet re -speaks that word to an audience in a particular situation.

And so there's two, there's two voices intersecting here in prophecy.

There's the divine author. It's God's message. It originates with him. It's true.

It's coming from outside, outside the world, outside of human knowledge.

But there's also a human author who is speaking in human language, in a particular point in history, out of particular experiences and circumstances.

And so theologians, you know, one of the words I like that theologians use is the word super intend that, that, that the

Holy Spirit, you know, didn't just, like you say, didn't just use the human author like a typewriter, but he super intended the human author, not violating the human author's experiences or personality, but, but yet the human author is saying everything that God wants him to say and nothing else.

So they're, they're, they're working, they're working together. I want to take a minute and say, thank you to the recording service that has made this podcast possible.

Riverside. When I started my podcast, I had literally no idea what I was doing. And I just wanted a single way to record, edit, and share content without wasting time on different platforms.

Then a friend suggested Riverside to me, and I'll tell you what, it was literally an answer to prayer with just one login.

I can record my interviews with scholars, clip interview moments into reels for Instagram, TikTok, and post directly onto my

RSS feed and Spotify all without the extra downloads platforms, all of it. So for the curious and confused people like me, the best part is that the crew at Riverside actually listens to their users when they need help.

I wanted an editing preset to save time on creating real templates. And they listened. They literally implemented a new feature.

And since using Riverside, my social clips have reached over a million people each month, and I haven't even unlocked all the features yet.

Live streaming is going to be next. So if you're considering starting a podcast, or you just need to edit at a pro level for content or interviews,

I cannot recommend Riverside enough. If this is helpful for you, I ask that you click the affiliate link

I provided in the show notes description. It costs nothing extra to you. And it gives a small kickback to me, which helps the channel stay alive.

Thank you so much. Now back to the show. Whoa. Oh my gosh.

I love this so much. I've never once thought of, you know, the charlatans and the manifestations like demonic for sure.

But manipulation, like summoning God on your own time versus like waiting on God. Never.

That's amazing. Phenomenal. Great. Thank you for blowing my mind. But yeah, it is it is that that is in fact, the prophets are often any anytime they're talking about idolatry, when they're talking about divination, they are concerned about manipulation.

They're concerned about people who are using the gods for their benefit, rather than submitting to gods.

Right. And the prophets are saying, when it comes to the God of Israel, the one true God, you submit to him, you obey him, you do what he says, even though it's not popular, even though it's countercultural.

Whereas all the other religious structures are about kind of using religion for your benefit. And so it's very different, right?

It's the difference between revelation and folk religion. Right. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh. Wow. I feel this is amazing. This is amazing.

Okay. This is the amazing part of this podcast where you're like, I got up. I wish I could pause and like take a break and a walk to think about that.

But we got to keep going. So this is you would think, okay, if I were to summon my

God and get the message that I want, dissect the sheep, see the lungs, see my fortune, whatever.

But then to also receive revelation, like everything with Elijah, the pillar of fire, you know, clearly

God showed up, you know, kind of that, like, it was clearly God versus clearly not

God. Why were these prophets so hated, so mocked?

You know, they start doing these amazing things. They're literally delivering their spokespeople for God. And yet Jeremiah 38 says they cast him into the cistern.

There was no water, only mud. And Jeremiah sank into the mud. Or in Hosea, the prophet is a fool, the man of the spirit is mad.

Is that just like spiritual attacks? Like, can we really just boil it down to like, that's the enemy just like trying to silence the

Lord. They were speaking God's shouldn't have God's spoken word over power.

Like when that creates a mission. I mean, what do you have to say to that? Well, the prophets were speaking.

You know, I think one of the things that makes them difficult for us to read is the fact that they were embedded in particular historical circumstances.

And so if we don't know our Bibles very well, if we don't know kind of the story of Israel's history, and we don't know about King Uzziah and King Jotham and, you know, and all of these, all of these battles and the enemy armies that were putting military pressure on them.

It's like, you know, then when the prophets reference these things, we're like,

I don't know what's going on, right? It would be like, it would be like if a space alien came down and heard us talking about, you know, some of the political issues of our day, like pro -life or immigration.

Yeah. Immigration. If they'd be like, you know, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about. Right. Or, or so they see a sign in a window that says, you know, we, we are resisting ice.

They'd be like, I have no idea what that means. Right. I have no idea what you're talking about there. So these are the, these are the circumstances in which the prophets were working.

And, and so they weren't, they weren't just addressing, they, they weren't just kind of these abstract philosophers who were addressing, you know, kind of mental puzzles or, or wisdom sayings, or kind of these esoteric religious teachings that, you know, you could kind of leave or, you know, take or leave because they were only for the elite or they were, you know, they were concrete, you know,

God, God is saying through the prophets, stop building your society on the backs of the poor.

Stop trusting in your military when you should be trusting in the Lord. Right. Yes. Israel is a special people, but because Israel has broken the covenant that God made with them at Sinai, they are in rebellion against him.

It doesn't matter if all of the surrounding nations are worshiping Baal, that is absolutely prohibited.

Right. So these are, these are concrete, confrontational, statements that are, that are bound, that are bound to make people upset, politically upset, religiously upset.

They're stepping on people's toes. I always think of,

I don't know, I don't know if you've seen the second Lord of the Rings movie The Two Towers, you know, but, but Gandalf, Gandalf goes in to meet

King Theoden, you know, who's been taken over by, oh, I don't know, some wizard spell or whatever.

And, and King Theoden says to Gandalf, you know, why should I welcome you? You, you have always been a herald of woe.

Trouble always follows you around. You know, he didn't want to see Gandalf. He didn't want to, he didn't want

Gandalf to come and tell him he was doing something wrong. And, you know, that's what we get a lot.

We get, we get that a lot. People persecuting the prophets because they're, they're speaking truth to power.

They're confronting Kings who are used to getting their own way. They're addressing systemic sins in the priesthood.

Right. And so, yeah, everyone hated them for it. And, but it's, it's similar.

It's similar today. You know, you, you raise certain biblical issues in certain contexts and you're going to get trouble.

Right. It's, it's, it's not much different than it is today. Yeah. I guess

I feel a little silly frosty about like, why were people so mad when he was being called out? But you would think like, because it's the word of God, like it would have had a different impact, but you're right.

I mean, anybody would feel convicted if somebody showed up and was like, you have to stop doing what you're doing. It's not right.

Okay. That, that makes it a little bit more sense. Thanks for putting that into context. Were there like, at the same time, there were probably like false prophets saying the opposite, you know, just kind of false prophets that were saying, you know, it's fine.

Keep doing what you're doing. Certainly. Certainly. So that, that's what marks a false prophet.

They, they do, they announce kind of an invented word of the

Lord for their own benefit because it's a career or because they, they want personal power, personal influence of some, of some kind.

They tell people what they want to hear. Yeah. Right. God isn't angry at your sin.

It's not that big of a deal. Judgment isn't coming or, you know, Jeremiah may have said that, that the exile will last 70 years, but I'm here to tell you it's not, you know, it's going to be over really soon.

So yeah, they're telling people what they want to hear and it's usually good news.

And so it's a challenge because of course the people would rather hear that.

And it makes the real prophets look bad by comparison. Yeah. I guess like my misunderstanding of prophets was like, if I was a prophet,

I would be elevated to the highest level of government. I would be the source of truth. I would be like the go -to for knowledge.

So if I spoke, people listened, if I was the prophet and I like, how could you possibly not take everything they said, whether it was harsh or not still believe it because it's the ultimate truth.

But you know, it, it wasn't that, you know, you're painting a much clearer picture that like prophets were confrontational.

They were stirring the pot. They, for some people were entertainment and couldn't be taken seriously just so they could justify not listening to them.

It was, it was not an elevated status at all. It sounds. Well, it, it, you know, there were different circumstances, like in the book of Ezekiel, we read about the elders of the people gathering around Ezekiel and, and they, they, they want it to be entertaining.

They want him to, you know, kind of give them something provocative or something interesting to, you know, to hear.

And Ezekiel says, I'm not, I'm not playing that game. Like I, I deliver the word of the

Lord and I'm not here, you know, for your entertainment. Isaiah, Isaiah seems to be a different situation.

He was someone who interacted directly with Kings. And so maybe he had a higher status in Jerusalem.

Jeremiah was, you know, deeply unpopular at a time of crisis when

Jerusalem was about to fall to the Babylonians. And so, you know, that's why they're throwing him in a pit, you know, and threatening him to kill, threatening to kill him and things like that.

So yeah, it's, it's a variety of different, different seasons of life, different experiences, but, but anytime, anytime the prophets are, are running up against power structures, you know, even take someone like Samuel, you know, in that case, you know,

Samuel was a, you know, popular guy, had authority. But, but then at some point, you know, he, he and Saul are kind of going at it because, because King Saul's not obeying the word of the

Lord. And so, yeah, so that, you know, we can just think of a lot of examples where the prophets were, were either confronting the

King or depending on the circumstances being persecuted by the King, you know.

Okay. I mean, maybe this is obvious and I'm just missing it, but like the big question here is, is like the prophets are talking about Jesus.

They're literally describing him, how he's going to show up, what he's going to do. So if they're all kind of like talking about him, seeing him, being the spokesperson for like who

God is about to send, how did Israel fail to recognize Jesus when he did show up?

Yeah. Well, I, you know, some people say, some people say that the prophets weren't foretellers.

They were fourth tellers. Right. And so they didn't, they weren't really concerned with the future.

They were concerned with their own time periods. I think, I don't like that statement. I think that's, I think that's false.

I think that because the prophets spoke for God, the prophet was just as comfortable talking about the past or the present or the future, right?

It makes no difference. God, God is able to see the future just as clearly as he does the past.

And so at times the prophets did speak about the future. Now they'd speak, they do spend a lot of time talking about the past and they spend a lot of time talking about the present, but they do, they do at times speak about the future as well.

And we know that, that they were read that way because remember when

King Herod is trying to find, you know, baby Jesus to kill him. Remember he consults, he consults the

Jewish leadership and they say, well, the Bible says that the

Messiah is going to be born in Bethlehem. And so at that point, Herod, you know, goes to kill the babies in Bethlehem.

So you, we can see there that, that the Jews did think that not only was the, not only were the prophets speaking about the future, but that they were speaking specifically about the coming

Messiah who is coming in the line of David. I want to be, you know, it would be, it would be easy to just sort of criticize the

Jews in Jesus day and say, well, they're, they're all blind, but you know, I'm glad when

I read the Bible, I can, I can read about Jesus. I think that'd be a mistake. I want to try and be as understanding as possible.

There, there are passages in the old Testament that speak about a suffering

Messiah, like Isaiah 52 and 53, but there are many, many passages in the prophets that speak about, um, kind of a couple things at the same time.

They talk about that God's going to forgive his people, but they don't, they don't say how he's going to do that.

They talk about how in the future, God is going to destroy all the wicked nations.

Uh, they say that God's going to dwell with his people and they're, they're going to live in peace and security and prosperity forever.

Right? That sounds pretty good. Um, but they don't, they don't always get into the mechanics about how exactly that's going to happen, right?

How God's going to forgive sin, how they, they do, they do talk about the

Messiah, but they don't always talk about him when they're, when they're predicting these future benefits.

So I think it's possible, you know, for the Jews in Jesus day to be so negative about the

Roman empire that was oppressing them. And so, um,

I think it's possible for them to read the old Testament and, and, and kind of focus on all those passages about the victorious

Messiah who reigns over God's people in peace and puts down his enemies and, and that to, to, to, to read, read kind of what they want to read and, and focus on that.

But we also know that all the pieces about how, you know, how the

Bible fits together and how, how Jesus, um, fulfills the old

Testament. You know, Paul, Paul, a couple of times calls that a mystery, like in Romans 11 and Romans 16, he says, it's a mystery.

They, it wasn't always clear, um, at the outset how all this was going to work out.

And in some ways it's in hindsight that, um, that we can look back and say, oh, now we can see the ways that, that Jesus really does fulfill all of these things that were predicted, um, in the old

Testament. So I want to be, I want to be as understanding as possible, but on the other hand, you know, we know that politics can skew our understanding of scripture.

That that's certainly the case for us. If you, if you are a hardcore Democrat and you're on the left end of the spectrum, then, um, maybe there's some things in the

Bible that you'll ignore and, uh, and maybe you won't be too excited about.

And maybe if you're on the right end of the spectrum and you're a hardcore Republican, there's some things you're not going to be too excited about in the

Bible. And so, you know, it, it may be that, that may be part of it as well, that they read what they wanted to read and, and that they were looking for a victorious

Messiah and not one that would suffer and atone for sin. That's a good point.

Yeah. I mean, it's so much easier to look back and say like, Hey guys, he literally said Luke 24, beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures, the things concerning himself, or, you know, oh,

Jerusalem, you're killing the prophets and stone those who sent you, you know, like he is relating like, Hey guys, it's me. I think there's like an episode in Seinfeld where, you know,

Jerry goes on a date with a blind woman and he's like, I had no idea she was blind. And it goes back in the night. She just like, talks about how blind she is.

And like so many obvious signs that this woman is blind. He's like, I don't know, like who knew? And it's just like, looking back, it's like Jesus literally was like, so I'm the

Messiah. And they're like, this guy is crazy. Like anyways, like if we were there, we obviously, we probably would have missed it too.

Like you said, because maybe there was a vision of, you know, the true Messiah would have came like on a white horse.

He would have came as a militant leader. He would have come as a King and Jesus, the carpenter.

Is that how you're really talking about? So, yeah, I mean, it's tough though, looking back and I understand having sympathy.

It's just, this guy's doing literally the miracles that they said he would do. You know, he's literally fulfilling prophecy from the, from Isaiah, you know, he's, he's bringing people back from the dead and they're like,

I don't know. That guy was just kind of, you know, how does, how do we miss that? But like you said, we're human, you know, maybe there is an attribution there of doubt or maybe he is a false prophet.

You know, like we try to justify it all over the place because he couldn't possibly be the savior.

Like that's a huge claim to, to stake in the sand. And yeah,

I guess I, I'm overestimating kind of the judgment and especially what

I would have done if I was back there. Like you just try to like justify and explain yourself.

Like, no, no, he's not the Messiah. He's just a really handy guy. He's not the Messiah. He's just great timing.

You know, Jesus speaks a lot about the cost of following him.

He talks about taking up your cross. He says, you have to hate your, hate your mother and father and brothers.

He says, don't follow, you know, just like you wouldn't start building a tower until you find out what it's going to cost you to, for all the building materials.

Don't follow me until you are willing to pay the price. So, you know, the

Jewish leaders are criticized in the New Testament because they were trying to hold onto their power. But even the, even, even

Jesus' disciples who wanted to believe in him and were believing in him, some things tripped him up.

You know, there were, there were things that were like, even Peter, you know, he's like, you know, wasn't quite sure all the time that Jesus was, should really be saying such things or whatever.

So, yeah, I actually think that, you know, there's aspects of it that they, you know, certainly some people,

Jesus' mother, Mary, for example, she's praised because she believed right away.

Other people believed right away, you know, so that it's not that it's impossible. But it's, but it's, in some ways it's the same today, right?

It's, it's I think we think that if we, if we only were eyewitnesses to Jesus' miracles, we would certainly believe, but we can always, we can always make excuses because it does, it does cost something to follow him and not everyone's willing to do that.

That's a really interesting scripture. I didn't know about the, know the cost of the building materials before you follow. I honestly hadn't heard that one, but I mean,

I believe you, I, that carries a lot of weight, but kind of like what you just said of like trusting that it had happened.

Deuteronomy 18 says, if a prophet speaks and the word does not come to pass, that is a word the

Lord has not spoken. How do we test that? How do we keep track of that one? You know, how do we pull out like, oh yeah, you know, my friend

Isaiah the other day said that this was going to happen. Have we followed up on that? Is that, has that happened or was that, did he make that one up?

Was that one of the things that did come true? How are we, how were they following up on that type of thing? Yeah, well, the, you know, the reason for this, it, that, that, that comes at the end of Deuteronomy 18, which we've already talked about.

And you know, if God is speaking through the prophet, if these are the actual words of God that are coming through the prophet, then that means that they have completely binding authority.

You, you must obey them. You have no choice, right? And so you, what you cannot have in the community then is for someone to show up and say like, hey, guess what?

God gave me a, God gave me a prophetic word for all of you. Well, now does everyone have to obey that?

So the stakes are very high. It, the prophetic word must be obeyed.

And so they have to know whether, whether it's real or not. Actually, the book of Deuteronomy gives us three different tests for whether it's true or not.

In Deuteronomy 13, Deuteronomy 13, Moses says that if a prophet ever encourages you to worship a different God than the

Lord, you know, it's a false prophet and you should kill him. And then in Deuteronomy 18, 20, let me see here.

It says a prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

So any, any prophet who speaks for another God and says, I'm a prophet of Baal and I'm here to, to give you a divine message, right?

Okay. False prophet, right? So number one, they, they, they, a true prophet will never encourage you to worship someone else.

Number two, they will never speak in the name of another God. And then number three, the third test that you're talking about is whenever the prophet speaks about something in the future, it will always come true.

Or if we need to be more precise, it will never not come true, right?

That's the more precise way of saying it. It will never be false. It will never, it will never happen that the prophet, the true prophet will speak on behalf of the

Lord. And then it will, it will not come to pass. So it's a test that's only falsifiable. If the prophet says, you know, the king of Egypt will turn his army back and go back to Egypt and won't attack us after all.

And then that happens, it could be a lucky coincidence, right?

You know, if it comes true, you don't know. It could be a lucky guess, but if it ever does not come true, if it's ever false, if it's ever something that is falsified, then you know that that can never, that cannot be a prophet from the

Lord because God is never going to say something that isn't true. So I think the question, but I think the question you're raising is, well, what about like distant, what about distant prophecies, right?

It's one thing if a prophet, you know, makes a prediction. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And that's, that's more difficult I guess to that, I would say most of the prophets talk about things in the future, in the short term and in the long term.

And so the short term gives us confidence in the long term. And so it might've been a situation where the prophet would just gain a reputation over time, gain confidence over time.

And then when he said things about, yeah, yeah. Then when he said things about the future, the distant future, people would say, well, we don't really have a way to test that, but he seems to be a true prophet.

Yeah. He's got a pretty clean record on it. So was prophecy like happening all the time? You know, like how, how often were you kind of faced with this dilemma of like trusting what someone said?

Was it something that was like, ah, the corner guy said something crazy today again? Or was it like, Hey guys, stop the work.

We got to listen to Isaiah. He just said something and that hasn't happened in 25 years. Like what was the frequency here?

Yeah. It's hard to know that. I mean, the prophetic books that we have, we were told that they're highly selective.

Um, in, in, in many cases, they're not in chronological order. Got it.

So the prophetic books that we have are really written for us, right? They're written for future generations.

So the prophet had an initial audience, which were his contemporaries that he spoke to.

And then the, the book was written for, for future generations. And so it's hard to say, you know,

Isaiah had like a 50 year ministry. Was he, was he doing this every week? Right. Was he doing this only at certain times?

It's, it's, uh, it's difficult to know, but yeah, I can, I can imagine. It's hard to have dinner with Isaiah where it's like, you're like, was that, well,

I was just going to say that. I mean, the prophets do say, thus saith the Lord. Right. And so I think that they,

I think they must have had a way of indicating when they were speaking on behalf of God and when they were just kind of going about their daily lives.

Got it. Got it. Good. Good to know. Okay. Wow.

This has been such an amazing conversation. I feel like I just was so clarified the whole time.

So thank you for just like rooting us in scripture and your knowledge and kind of bringing to the surface, like the things that actually make sense and explain it.

I feel like I feel corrected on a lot of fronts here. So thank you for kind of like putting me back in line there.

Um, yeah, I mean, I feel like no matter what even today, there's still prophets and yet we still struggle with the same things they did back then.

And so I think I saw some things like, like we would still crucify Jesus today. Like, even if he showed up today, we're no better.

And you know, how could we possibly look back at them and say, how could you not have recognized Jesus when like, do we today?

Um, but I'm sure a lot of people really want to connect with you. I mean, your work is amazing. You wrote a book on this.

Please tell me, how can people continue learning from you, Dr. Tully? Well, maybe the best way is, um, is through my, my recent book.

It's called reading the prophets as Christian scripture. Okay. And it's published by Baker.

What's that? Where can somebody buy it? Just like anywhere? Oh, it's on Amazon. It's on Amazon.

It's not that expensive. It's, uh, it's in bookstores everywhere. Um, it's published by Baker reading the prophets as, as, uh, as Christian scripture.

And, uh, the first eight chapters are kind of everything that we've been talking about. The message of the prophets, sign acts, false prophets, um, you know, the difference between the, the prophets original speeches and the, and the books that we have in our

Bible. And then I have a chapter on every, every prophetic book in the old Testament, kind of working through it, the time period, the major message of that prophet.

And then I end each chapter talking about how each book in the old

Testament, each prophetic book in the old Testament kind of points forward to Jesus and, and relates to the new

Testament and things like that. Wow. Wow. Are you teaching classes right now? So yeah.

Okay. Yep. Um, yeah, we're, um, yeah, I'm at Trinity evangelical divinity school.

We're located in Deerfield, Illinois through the end of this year. And then this summer we're moving to join a new university.

We're going to be joining Trinity Western university up in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Wow. So that's going to be a big, yeah. Yeah. So we're going to be, uh, but we're still going to be serving the church in the

U S and Canada. And we, we have online courses, um, and then in -person courses as well for anyone who wants to dig deeper in the, in their understanding of scripture and theology.

That's insane. I, I'm so grateful for just the knowledge, the wisdom, and you sharing all of your scholarly insights,

Dr. Tilly. I'm so grateful. And I hope everybody's learned as much as I have, because this was an amazing conversation. You are always welcome back on the show.

Yeah. Thank you. It's great. It's been great to be here. Thanks for your good questions. And I hope it's been helpful for people as they think about the old