Should Pastors Who Can't Afford to Feed Their Families Learn to Code?

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Christ Alone and the Coming Judgment

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

The Podcast Introduction and Today's Question

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age-old question, should pastors who can't afford to feed their families learn to code?

Now, as we start this episode, Tim, what Bible verse do you have to read for us?

Paul as Tentmaker in Acts 18

Tim Mullett. Yeah, Acts 18 .2 says, And he found a Jew named Achilla, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome, and he went to see them.

And because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. So, that's just a verse basically saying that Paul was a tentmaker along with Achilla and Priscilla.

So, basically, along with Paul's, you know, skills as a spiritual leader and as a church planner, he also had some useful skills too, huh?

That's right.

He had some skills of value.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, yeah, because one of the things that, one of the jokes about going into ministry, I mean, particularly the way that I did. So, I mean, I went to Bible college and I went to seminary, and, you know, I have a general Bible degree, and then I have a Master's of Divinity degree, and when it comes to trying to find like a normal job with those two degrees, I mean, they really are kind of, they really are liabilities in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

Trying to find just normal employment that is not very specific to religious kind of endeavors. There, for sure.

So, you know, this seems like it might be sort of a given based off of the passage you just read, but I want to ask this anyway just so we can have it out there and it's hopefully clear for everyone. Is, you know, a pastor who is unable to pay all their bills just through being a pastor, is it better for them to be bivocational rather than, you know, trying to struggle along and, you know, cut a lot of, you know, trim a lot of the fat out of their budget to just the bare bones kind of thing and try and only be a pastor that way?

Is it better to just give some of their time to, you know, to trying to figure, trying to learn a, you know, quote-unquote useful skill to society?

Seminary, Calling, and the Lack of Marketable Skills

Well, there's a lot going on with a question like this and it's difficult to know how to answer it in a short and concise way. Like, meaning, one of the things that's happened, particularly as it relates to seminary education within America in particular, you know, one of the problems is that you have a lot of big bucks, you know, seminaries like the kind that I went to that seem to have very little to no standards as to who they're going to let in to get a seminary degree, okay?

So, meaning, like, when I went to seminary I was, you know, I'll be honest, I was a little bit nervous that they would actually let me in.

Really?

I mean, you know, you think, hey, I'm going to go and I'm going to be a pastor and, you know, I don't know what they expect, but then when you think about just the standard big-box seminary, I'm not trying to slander them, but I am, you know, it's very obvious that when you go to seminary and you see the kind of people who are there, there's basically almost no standards that are being exercised as to who they're going to let into seminary.

And, you know, and a lot of, like, the recruiters for these seminaries, like, a lot of what they do is they, basically, they know that there's a market for young people who particularly don't really know what they want to do with their life.

And so there's been, I mean, there's a lot of, like, if you're in certain kinds of church circles, there's a lot of pressure that people put on a certain kind of people, you know, a certain demographic of person to say, hey, you know, you don't want to waste your life, right?

You don't want to waste your life by doing something mundane. You don't want to live your whole life collecting seashells and all that in order to retire. But, you know, you want to make something of your life, and so there's pressure that young people feel at your, just at your standard, like, youth pastor kind of message that's pushed forward over and over again.

You know, you want to do something with your life, and you go into ministry, and, like, that'll be the answer. And so what you have is you have a lot of young people who are going into seminary with just zero life skills, like, that they've ever developed.

Like, a lot of the guys I went to with seminary, they had never really even worked real jobs before, right? So, like, they didn't have any skills. Like, this was their, they kind of made a mess of their life in certain areas.

And then...

I got to stop you real quick, Tim. Are you talking about ministry right now, or are you talking about the military? Because they sound pretty similar right now. A lot of times the military, they're, you know, they go after those guys that don't really have any...

Ambition.

Any ambition or any purpose in their life at the moment. You know, these young guys right out of high school, 18, 19 years old, who don't really have a plan, you know, aren't really planning on going to college at least immediately.

And so these guys come along, and they're like, hey, man, you know, if you enlist, man, you get this type of bonus. You know, you get this signing bonus immediately. And, you know, you've just got to do these things, and then you get that, and you get a guaranteed job getting paid at least this much money.

You know, so it's a lot like the... It sounds in a lot of ways like the same thing, just when you go to the seminary, you're not getting that signing bonus. You're typically going into debt instead.

Seminary Debt, Church Hiring, and Doctrinal Compromise

Yeah, so, well, and that's part of the problem. So part of the problem is that you have these seminaries who are charging these exorbitant amounts of money in order to, like, get educated, right? And then they're basically, like, they're marketing themselves to a bunch of young guys who really don't have a lot of plan in their life who just maybe get out of college.

And so, I mean, the vast majority of guys that went to seminary with me were just, like, straight out of college, no plan in their life, want to do something with their life. They maybe feel some charismatic sense of calling to the ministry or something along those lines.

And they were talked into at some point thinking they need to go into the ministry. They'd never preached a sermon before. They've never done a Bible... I mean, they've never, like, you know, so a lot of the guys I'm talking about, like, they never even read their Bible before.

You know, they just had some experience that they had at some point where they were persuaded that they needed to surrender, you know, to surrender their life to ministry or something like that. And then you have, like, a seminary who just is coming along and saying, hey, you're not going to turn away a cash cow, right?

So this is how you exist.

So, but then, you know...

We've got professors to pay, man.

Yeah, we've got professors. I mean, it's just absolutely true. And I don't... Like, I'm not saying all seminaries are like that, but a lot of them are like that. So, but then, like, the issue is then, you know, you have a bunch of guys who have no life skills, no plan with their life, who are then...

And then there's this pressure put on you to say, hey, you know, if you quit, you're letting God down, right? Like, because once a pastor... Like, once a pastor, always a pastor, right?

You're letting God down.

Once you feel called,.

Like, once you feel called to the ministry, right? Like, this is like a... This is like... This is a quasi-command that God gave you, that He's telling you. Not only what you have to do with the rest of your life, you have to be a pastor for the rest of your life.

But then it's also like this implicit kind of promise that somehow, like, He's going to provide a place for ministry for you, right?

So, He's going to provide...

And then He's going to provide a particular type of ministry for you. So, He's going to provide, like, a church that is, like, able to support you financially, like, full-time, right? Like, so, He's promising, like, a future full-time ministry placement.

And so, basically, you go to seminary,.

You know, you go to Bible college,.

You go to seminary, whatever else, you get this degree, you get into a bunch of debt, and with no plan, like, on how you're going to pay for it,.

All in the hopes that, like,.

Maybe you'll be ready to be a pastor by the end of it, right? And then the funny part is... So, what's really funny about that is then, you know, you just get down with your seminary, you conquer the, you know, the seminary experience and all that,.

And then...

Which is something else. I mean, it's just like three, maybe four years of your life in intense reading all day long, studying and everything else. So, you still don't have any marketable skills, right?

You've been kind of ignoring the church, like, very little involvement in the church the whole time because you're trying to figure out how to get through this thing. You're at time to learn and all that.

But then you get out from there and then you look at the job openings, like, for the first time. Like, this is, like, a few months before you graduate seminary, you start looking at all the job openings.

And, I mean, they're the funniest kind of things in the world. You know, they want, like, this pastor with this dynamic vision that's going to lead the congregation. And entirely the same direction that they're going, you know?

But it's going to work this time.

But then, you know...

But it's going to work this time.

It's like, you know,.

They have a very specific thing they want. It's like, none of it hardly is concerned with any doctrinal issues for the most part. But then it's just like, hey, we want you to make it, make the church grow.

While, you know,.

Not doing anything different than we're already doing. Because that would offend people.

Hey, don't turn the ship at all, but make us more successful.

That's right.

But then, like, the funny... What's funny about it, though, is it's like, then, like, you look at all these advertisements, like, or these ads or whatever for the pastor or whatever. And it's like, they want someone who has, like, 10 years of pastoral experience.

10 years of pastoral experience. And, you know, here's a salary, like $30 ,000 a year with a parsonage or something like that.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, what, like...

If you have someone who has 10 years of pastoral experience, why would they leave their church to go to your church for $30 ,000 a year? Like, with a parsonage or something like that, they may not even be able to live on that, right?

So, but then, like, so then the issue is, like, the issue is, like, there's, like, this whole church shopper or, like, church-hopping kind of culture among pastors to where you just, you take a job in order to get experience, and then you hop to the next job.

And you think about, like, all the financial constraints that are put on, you know, individuals like the ones I'm describing, going through this system, it's, like, it's a system that's just absurd, like, when you think about it.

It's, like, it's a system that basically says, hey, you know, you get into, you know, $50 ,000 to $100 ,000 worth of debt going to seminary or whatever, and then you're gonna come out with no marketable skills with the expectation that you already have 10 years of experience doing this thing.

You know, and none of this, like, the seminary, like, the nice, friendly seminary recruiter didn't tell anyone about any of this, like, how it actually works. But then, I mean, you can imagine, like,.

What that does.

To the doctrinal integrity of the people coming out of seminary, right? Like, meaning, like, you know, if you're looking for a pastor job, you're gonna go to the places with money, and typically the places with money are, I mean, not because you're greedy, but because you want to survive, right?

But then, like, the issue there is then to say, hey, like, the churches with the money, with all the funds, they're often the ones that are just, like, absolutely and utterly filled with compromise, right?

So they're the ones who are just, like, doctrinally a mess, like, their philosophy of ministry is a mess, like, it's all a mess. But then they're the only ones who have the jobs, who have the money, and so then you learn from the very beginning, hey, if I take this job, like, this is the only way I'm gonna survive because I don't have any skills that I can rely on to take care of me because I'm utterly dependent upon churches to do it, right?

So I've set up my life in such a way that I didn't have anything productive to do on the front end, and now I'm utterly and completely and totally at the mercy of, you know, what a church is gonna be able to do or not, like, at that point.

And then typically, it's like, yeah, it is the ones that have the money that are gonna, and they have certain expectations of you.

That, you know,.

Are gonna be filled with compromise.

And I mean, that's why, you know,.

You get, like, systems like the SBC and everything else. They're just filled with a bunch of people who they realize that their paycheck is dependent upon them not rocking the boat and being, you know, a politician more than they are a pastor and trying to keep the peace.

And, you know,.

And then what you have is you have a situation.

Where, you know,.

You just have a bunch of people who they made, they started out ministry in a dumb way, and then they're at the mercy of the system, right? Which is just, which rewards fall in line via yes, you know, a yes man or whatever.

And it really discourages anyone saying anything.

That might, you know,.

Unsettle anyone for sure.

Bivocational Ministry and the Cost of Integrity

Yeah, and isn't it interesting too that, you know, often you were talking earlier about, you know, people, young people going into seminary feeling this sort of like, hey, I've been, you know, I've been called to the ministry.

And some sort of charismatic way. Isn't it funny that that translates over to,.

You know,.

Pastors who are moving on to other churches. Typically it's, they're only ever called to the ones that are going to pay them more money.

You know,.

They're only ever called to go to those bigger churches. You know, the youth, the youth pastor,.

You know,.

He's only ever called to go be the,.

You know,.

The adult ministry pastor or the, you know, great commission pastor, the hospitality. He's not called to go be another youth pastor somewhere else.

It pays less, yeah.

Yeah, because that's sort of the, I mean, he's in the entry point, man. God's not going to call him to some place. That's not paying more money.

Yes, I mean, part of the big problem is you have this charismatic sense of calling that is directing the whole project.

And there's no wisdom.

Involved in any of it, right? There's no, like, thought put into, like, no one, like the Bible says, like, no one sets out to build a tower unless they first count the cost. And then if they discover.

They don't have, like,.

Enough to do it, then they're going to get mocked or whatever, right? So, but, like, the whole charismatic thing is driving the whole thing. So, but then you're asking me, well, should pastors think about having some sort of marketable skill before going into ministry?

Like, should they be thinking along those lines?

And I mean, I think.

In an ideal world, like, no, right? So, I mean, you have, like, Paul talking about, you know, no one, no one entangles himself in his letters to Timothy.

Or whatever.

No one entangles themselves in civilian pursuits, right? But then the enlisted one, like, seeks to serve the one above, right? So, like, when you think about, like, the time it takes to be a pastor, I mean, there's, like,.

Very real, like,.

Being a pastor requires time. And there's only 24 hours.

In a day.

And you do have responsibilities, like, that you're going to have to have.

Like, so you have.

Responsibilities to your family. Meaning, like, in order to even be qualified to be a pastor, you have to be shepherding your family well. That means, like, bringing your kids up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

That means, like, living with your wife in an understanding way. That means trying to present your wife spotless and blameless.

Before the Lord.

That's time, like, and that's the thing that qualifies you to be a pastor is getting your house in order and shepherding what you have, right? So, like, that all requires a certain amount of time. And then you think about, like, the demands at a standard church.

I mean, there's just never enough time.

Right?

I mean, you have to teach.

You have to preach. You have to visit people. You have to counsel.

You have to, like, disciple people.

You have, like,.

Whatever things your church is doing. I guess there's just a bunch of time sink. And so, I mean, like, in an ideal world, yeah, sure, it'd be great if you could be in a situation where you're just,.

Like, the apostles say, hey, it's not desirable.

For us to wait tables, but we're going to devote ourselves to the ministry.

Of the Word.

And to prayer. Like, it would be the best kind of situation to have a pastor who's completely freed up to disciple his flock, to preach the Word of God,.

Right, in season.

And out of season, everything else, to shepherd his home and isn't entangled in civilian pursuits. I mean, that would be absolutely ideal. But then the reality is, like, if you look at,.

Like, the way.

That ministry actually works,.

I mean, if Paul himself,.

Like, was a tentmaker, then the ideal isn't, you know, necessarily biblical, meaning, I mean, what I mean is it's not like it's wrong.

To be a full-time.

Paid vocational pastor.

That's like,.

Paul puts that forward as an ideal, right?

He puts that forward.

As the ideal.

So that you're not entangled in civilian pursuits. But then the reality is,.

Like, if you're.

Doing it right, right,.

Like, if you're doing.

The thing right, Jesus says, like, a servant is not above his master. If they hated me, they're gonna hate you, right? And, like, the issue is, like, if you're a pastor who has any sorts of convictions about anything whatsoever, I mean, you may have a hard time.

Like, I mean, it's easy to build a church if you just give all the people everything that they want and tell them that they're not step, you know, not step on their toes, not teach anything that's hard, you know, stay away from the controversial issues,.

Like, don't speak.

To where they're at, don't challenge them in any way, don't push them in any way, and just, you know, anything they wanna do, you do, you make it happen, give them a bunch of programs, give them a bunch of activities,.

You know,.

All that kind of stuff. Anything that they wanna do, you just let them do. You know, if they wanna teach, let them teach, whatever else.

Like, that's, like,.

I'm not saying that that's not.

Without headaches,.

But, I mean,.

At least there's.

A lot less...

At least you get money from that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you can build a...

You can,.

You know,.

You entertain the goats and the goats will come, right?

And you get reputation from it, too.

Yeah, you get reputation,.

And, you know,.

There's more goats than there are sheep.

Right.

So, like,.

There's an easy way.

To build a flock of goats,.

You know?

And just look at all your big churches, most of your big churches.

Out there,.

And you'll find out how you do it.

It's pretty easy to see.

But, you know,.

Not all of them,.

But, like, a lot of them. Like, you know,.

The biggest...

I mean, I don't know. Joel Osteen has, how many people at his church?

50 ,000?

He has a whole, like, stadium. A literal stadium.

There's a way that seems right under man, but in the end it leads to death. You know, I mean, the last days they'll heap up for themselves teachers who are going to tickle their ears and all that. I mean, certainly there are ways.

To build,.

You know,.

Build a church.

Full of non-regenerate people for sure. But, I mean, you do have to think about, well, is it worth.

The money? You know,.

And I think that money is a big hurdle for many people, particularly in ministry. And there's so many people.

Who are bought.

By their salary. And particularly, I mean, you can just,.

You can look at the SBC.

And you can see all this happening. I mean, there's a reason why Bart Barber got elected.

President of the SBC. And it's not because he's qualified.

Or even remotely got there.

Like,.

He got elected.

Yeah, the things I've heard from him are not very impressive.

I mean,.

It's utterly humiliating to lose to someone like Bart Barber. But, I mean, you think about it,.

Like,.

He's bought, man.

His,.

Those votes were bought.

And they're bought by people who are in a system that's bought, right? And that's the way it works. So, I mean,.

You think about.

The whole thing from start to finish is set up in a way to compromise.

Your loyalty.

Because you're dependent upon money, right?

Right.

And so,.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think.

Particularly the more hostile,.

You know, our culture.

And society becomes to truth. The more post-Christian.

We're.

Becoming as a society,.

It may be that.

There's just fewer and far, like the church jobs, like the nice full-time paid.

Church jobs are fewer and further.

In between. And, you know, people who want to be faithful,.

They may.

Have to really like think about,.

Well, I,.

In order to be faithful and to actually say the things God wants me to say, I might have to put myself in some sort of position where I'm not utterly dependent upon,.

You know,.

This congregation who may be mad at me tomorrow, right?

Right.

Yeah.

I'm not,.

You know,.

It's either that.

Or you just like, you do the get run out of.

Your church.

Every few years kind of thing,.

You know? So, I mean,.

And I'm not saying that that's.

Everyone's experience,.

But I'm just trying to say that, you know, if there were just so many solid doctrinal good churches out there filled with.

Godly people.

Who want to hear the truth, then we wouldn't.

Be in the mess.

We're in,.

You know?

So, I mean, just look around the world and everyone knows this.

I mean,.

It's so hard to find a good church. It's so hard to find good pastors.

Who aren't.

Filled with compromise and the reason why is because the moment they say anything,.

Like,.

They're going to be.

At churches.

Who are going to kick them out,.

Okay?

Yeah.

So, yeah,.

I mean,.

I think in an ideal world it would be the best thing for people to completely devote themselves to the ministry of the word and prayer, but your integrity is not worth that. And if the only way to get in that kind of situation is to tell the goats what they want to hear and give the goats what they want, then you might as well not even do it.

Seminary Formation, Convictions, and Learning a Trade

Yeah, yeah,.

And we were kind of joking towards the beginning,.

You know, hey,.

It's time to get some useful skills. Don't just be a pastor,.

You know,.

Because you're going to graduate seminary with no real skills.

Whatsoever, but then, you know,.

Are we being serious there or is that just,.

You know,.

Being facetious to say that having the,.

You know,.

Not necessarily someone coming out of seminary because,.

I mean,.

That was my experience too in seminary is you had a lot of young,.

You know,.

Young guys and even girls going into the school that I was at and they don't know anything. They don't know anything about the Bible. They don't have their own convictions.

You know,.

I,.

Thankfully, I didn't have all my convictions formed, but I at least had enough.

To, to, you know,.

Pick out what I thought my teachers were saying that was right and what I thought that they were saying was wrong, but then a lot of the, a lot of the guys that were younger than me, I mean, they would just drink every word that every single one.

Of their um,.

Uh,.

You know,.

Their teachers.

Would,.

Would say. And some of it was bad. Some of it was really bad.

What's funny about that is that,.

You know,.

Most of my, most of the people I knew were that kind of people.

And.

They wouldn't question.

Anything.

And I would ask them about it sometimes.