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The Here I Stand Theology Podcast (The Laborers Podcast on Church Membership)
It's what y 'all need to be listening for. Yo, let me explain what I mean. It's not too complex. It's preaching God's Word in its proper context. As you listen, be discerning. What you have to determine.
What's the point of the passage? The point of the sermon? If not, this problem must be confronted today. Cause he just used the Bible to say what he wanted to say. And even if it's delivered with fire and intelligence.
That's basically making what God has inspired irrelevant. Instead of applying the Word's realities. A lot of passage relying on personality. But gifts of communication Can never be a true replacement.
For the Holy Spirit's illumination. Without exposition, you'll lack major profit. All you'll get is tradition and your passive favorite topics. And that can be a slippery slope. The Word should be giving you hope.
It's due to just giving you jokes. That won't help you love cry. It won't help your obedience. We need more expositors, not more comedians. But shepherds who labor in the text. Then faithfully connect you to the Savior.
Then wait for its effects. God gives the increase. Holiness loves unity. The Word faithfully preached builds up the whole community. If not, your Sunday meal will not last. And you'll have to supplement it with the podcast.
Don't entertain us, that won't sustain us. Preach the Word, preach the Word, preach the Word. This verse right here, it's for the pastors. I just want to encourage y 'all, man. Yeah, y 'all should be mindful of this.
About Jesus, all of the Bible is about Jesus. The Old Testament, Jesus Christ concealed. The New Testament, Jesus Christ revealed. This truth of the Lord Christ boldly conveyed this. In Luke 24, on the road to Emmaus.
The law, the prophets, and the teachings of apostles. All of these point back to Jesus in the gospel. So if the work of Christ is what the Word is about. Ultimately, that should be what the sermon's about.
Forget applause, you got to. Let the cross rock you. All roads in the Bible lead to Golgotha Whatever the text, faithfulness demands. That we should hear the echoes of nails hit in His hands. Don't try to be original, say the old story.
And watch your people change as they behold glory. The glory of Jesus, we need to see that. Preach the Word, preach the Word.
All right, all right, welcome to the Labor's Podcast. 1 Timothy chapter 3, verse 14 through 16. This is the Word of the Living God. Paul said, I hope to come to you soon. But I am writing these things to you.
So that if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave In the household of God. Which is the church of the Living God. A pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness.
He was manifested in the flesh. Vindicated by the Spirit. Seen by angels. Proclaimed among the nations. And believed on in the world. Taken up into glory. So guys, how are y 'all doing tonight? Doing good.
Doing all right. Good, so tonight we are going to be talking about the church, right? And more particularly, church membership. What is church membership? Can we make a biblical case? These are some of the things that we're going to talk about.
We're going to talk about a false view of church membership. A consumeristic view of church membership. Different kinds of church membership. What makes church membership different from anything else on the earth?
Is having or requiring a local church role or membership even biblical? And what are our roles and responsibilities when it comes to church membership? Not to mention a couple of other questions. That sounds like a whole lot that we're going to be tackling today.
But I believe it will be well worth it. It will be beneficial for us. It will be beneficial for those who are watching This podcast. But right before we get into this. Since I get to host this tonight The Here I Stand Theology Podcast I'm making a big announcement tonight.
So tonight officially The Here I Stand Theology Podcast has become a member of the Truth in Love Network. So Rob, tell us about the Truth in Love Network. What it's all about.
Where we're heading Truth in Love Network is just whatever God wants it to be. My desire is for my community. And I have been hoping, praying, and seeking and loving the fellowship That God has brought together so far.
And we're praying and hoping and seeking that God would bring More men together that are like-minded in theology. But also with a desire to reach their community. And so together, I'm hoping that God will use us To help each other reach our respective communities.
And then we want to support each other in what we are doing individually. With our own individual podcast or preaching, church planning Whatever you guys are doing. We want to support one another as we do that.
And then once a week, come together and just fellowship as brothers. And reach our community together as one podcast. And yeah, we're off to a great start. We've been doing it for a while, but we're trying to make it more official.
And the Lord is blessing in that.
Awesome, awesome. So tonight, let's do something. Let's kind of add a niche to our conversation tonight. So tonight, as we approach these questions. As we approach these issues. As we approach church membership.
What it is, what it's about. Is it biblical, so on and so forth. Let's do this. Let's make this like we are sitting at a table with each other. We'll pretend like these five squares on the screen in front of us.
Are just chairs which we're sitting at and we're staring at each other. And so as we are talking tonight. If Tyler, if you want to interject. You just say, hold on a minute, right? Dan will say, hang on a minute there, youngster.
Jesse will say, all right, I got something to say, right? So let's make this fully conversational. Let's bring this down to. Let's make this rubber meets the road talk tonight. So which one of y 'all would like to start in on.
Can we make a biblical case for church membership? Hint, hint, I read some scripture that points to it.
Can I go? Yeah, go ahead. So let me start off with Ephesians chapter 4. Ephesians is one of my favorite books in the Bible. But Ephesians 4 is unique. He's writing to the church, Paul is. But he's writing a very encouraging letter.
He's been hammering a lot of churches pretty hard with some stuff for a while. But Ephesians is encouragement. It's very encouraging instruction. And he starts off in chapter 4 with. Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to live worthy of the calling you have received.
That's salvation that we've been called into the family of God. And we are to live worthy of that calling with humility and gentleness. With patience, bearing with one another in love. Making every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace.
There is one body, one Lord, one spirit. Just as you were called to one hope at your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in all. That there is this unity that we have in Christ.
That we are brought together into one body. We're one person. And this thing we call the church is a gathering of like-minded Christians. We are all brought into this assembly. And we abide in Christ together.
We bear with one another in love. We are united in not just our calling. Not just the fact that we're saved. But we're united in mission. We're united in worship. We're united in who God is. That we're all underneath the banner of who Christ is and what he's done.
That's good, guys. How can we complement that? From what I see, the doctrine of church membership is very similar to the doctrine of the Trinity. You don't have a specific verse. You have to use your systematic theology like we talked about last time.
And draw your different verses together to help understand that God is triune. And so I think the same thing is true when it comes to church membership. There's no one particular verse that says. When you gather at one place.
Because it's geographically friendly with your neighbors. And you're all people whom God has saved. Create a role. You don't have that particular verse. But what you see is that concept and that idea taught throughout Scripture.
The idea of God marking people is all throughout Scripture. There's a mark that he talks about for. You know, on the hand and the forehead for the antichrist. And then there's a mark of the lamb for people.
And that's not talked about as much as the other mark or the mark of the beast. That the mark of the lamb is not talked about as much. Here as individuals, we're supposed to mark out those among you. You know, who are false teachers.
We're to mark out the widows and the orphans. And then you have in Scripture. We hear talk about the Lamb's Book of Life where God does have a role. And he knows whom are his. And then we learn from Christ that he teaches us to pray Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
And so, you know, if God is marking and knows whom are his. Then, yeah, I think we can do that here on earth. By knowing whom God has drawn to himself. And then that leads us practically to the application of it.
The church discipline, the helping of the widows and the orphans, and all that stuff.
Right, and so we'll get into that in more detail, too. So what you're explaining there, would you say that it's really Pointing toward the church universal there? Because the references you pointed out.
We're really talking about the body of Christ as a whole, the church, the church universal.
Right, yeah, and that's how it starts out off. But that as our example, when we move to our geographically friendly locations. It works out practically to help us in those other areas that we were talking about.
Church discipline, I mean, you can't kick somebody out if you don't have anybody in.
So Jesse, let's go to you, the biblical case for church membership.
Absolutely, I would like to think of, you know, back to a letter of Paul. In Philippians chapter 1, verses 3 and 5 Paul says something that's very unique, somewhat overlooked. And he uses a phrase that I actually come to like more and more.
And this one he says, and I quote, I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy. Because of your partnership in the gospel. From the first day until now.
I want to focus in that little phrase, because of your partnership in the gospel. From the first day until now, so the last part of that section. And he is very thankful of this partnership. Now, this partnership of what Paul has in mind is not a business partnership.
Is not a, you know, 50 -50 investment type partnership. Like an entrepreneurship, right? He has more in mind like a fellowship, more in mind like the word koinia. Which has the connotation of fellowship.
And koinia here is actually reference, is translated as partnership. In this, you know, verse here. And a lot of people do relate it to business. But I like to take it a little bit more higher than that.
And because we get to enjoy each other, you know, fellowship. When we get together every Sunday, you know what I mean? And that body, that assembly, which is the word kosea is assembly. When we get together, we become this assembly.
This special body. Right, and there's many bodies in the world that actually try to be like the church. I call them wannabes. And most people think about the United Nations as a great example of a body.
Of an assembly of people called out together. That are together for one purpose. But yet they can't get along. They're not really a great example of what the church really is. So that koinia, when we get together, we actually have that fellowship.
We get to enjoy our fellowship. This is the context where, you know, where, you know. The context of, you know, where we share each other's gifts. Where we build each other up. And that immediately takes me to the world.
Because the world is very lonely, very dark, very isolated. The individualistic people out there, culture and all that. People don't have relationships. They really don't. It's very shallow if they do.
And all you have to do is take a quick look at statistics. And you will see that these relationships that exist in the world Are shallow, very weak, you know what I mean? And it's nothing in comparison with a brother in Christ.
Sometimes your relationship with your brothers and sisters in Christ Is actually way more deeper and meaningful Than your relationship with your own family in some context. You know what I mean? And, you know, it takes me to another verse in Ecclesiastes.
This koinia and action type thing. And in Ecclesiastes chapter 4, section verses 9 and 10 He says, two are better than one. Yeah, two are better than one. If one of them falls down, one can help each other up, right?
But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up. That's the world out there, you know what I mean? They're all against one another. You know, the homies, the friendships are shallow. They're weak.
They don't really help each other, you know what I mean? It's like tick for tack. You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back. So Christ and the Christ community. Because what we're talking about is a community here.
That doesn't really exist. At least it's not supposed to be like that. You know, we walked with the brother. We walked with the widow. We walked with the orphan like extra miles. You know what I mean?
Somebody told me, if you want to be an elder in the church Just go ahead and lay down like a speed bump right there. Because you're going to get around over a ton. You know what I mean? And you got to do it to the glory of Christ.
You know, it's a lot of service for the elders. And it's not to be served, right? And the world out there is very looking to be served. And what's in it for me? And that's not the community that Paul has in mind here.
That he's thankful of. You're not really thankful for people who take advantage of you. You know what I mean? You're not really thankful for cheaters and liars and back biters. And stuff like that. You're thankful for your pastor preaching.
You're thankful for that encouraging word you got on Sunday. You know, that fellowship meal. That koinia that we're supposed to get every Sunday. And you can't get that if you're not in church.
Yeah, and it takes us back to Jesus' words The Son of Man came not to be served But to serve and to give his life a ransom for many. Right? So you just hit on a bunch of the questions there. So let's move over to Dan.
Dan, the biblical case for church membership.
You know, I don't know is that the Bible makes a case for church membership. And here's why I say that. It's because the Bible doesn't really argue for it. Because it just assumes it. It kind of just assumes church membership.
As you go through it. Everything that you come up against where it deals with a church setting. There's authority structures. Which you have to define, you know, who's in, who's out. If you're going to discipline someone.
Who can be disciplined, who's not. Even the Apostle Paul talking about. You should judge those who are inside of the church. And not those who are out. Because God will judge those who are outside of the church.
Paul again in Hebrews. Because that's who wrote Hebrews. Fight me about it.
I agree, man. We can arm wrestle. But we're arm wrestling for the same thing.
He says in, I think it's chapter 10 Not to forsake the assembling over yourselves together. How do you know who to go meet with If you don't have a group of folks there. They chose from the godly men.
Those who would be deacons. I mean, it just goes on and on. Paul was looking for people who were Who would want to be worshiping on the Lord's day. So he went down there to the place where the church would gather.
There's, it's not argued for in the New Testament. Because it's assumed. It was just, you know. If God's going to call people to himself Then those people who are gathered around the gospel Are going to be his people.
And those people are just to act a certain way. They're held to a certain standard. Or they are brought under discipline.
So, yeah I agree, I agree. And Jesse, I thought you was reading my mind When you went to Philippians there. Because, I mean, if you go right to the very first verse of Philippians there, right. So what does Paul say?
Let me get there, sorry I'm not bringing this all up on the computer tonight. I'm doing it manually. So Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus. To all the saints in Christ Jesus Who are at Philippi.
With the overseers and the deacons. There we have the structure of the local church. In two verses right there. The saints, the deacons, and the elders are the overseers. We have it all right there. The Belgic Confession talks about the church.
Marks of the church. Article 28 of the Belgic Confession states. We believe since this holy congregation Is an assembly of those who are saved. And out of it there is no salvation. That no person of whatsoever state or condition He may be ought to withdraw himself to live in a separate state from it.
But that all men are in duty bound to join and unite themselves with it. Maintaining the unity of the church. Submitting themselves to the doctrine and discipline thereof. Bowing their necks under the yoke of Jesus Christ.
And as mutual members of the same body. Serving to the edification of the brethren. According to the talents that God has given them. That's succinct right there. That's a stick of dynamite. That'll blow a mailbox up right there.
We're all done, all right. Thank you for joining us.
What were you reading the Belgic Confession out of? My Bible.
The Reformation Study Bible. It's got all the creeds and confessions in the back of it. Gotcha. Yeah, it's handy. It's handy to have all of them there together. So Rob, let's go back to you here now. Let's talk about different types of church memberships.
You started us on this path here. Let's go ahead and continue. What are, by different types, different kinds of church memberships. So we have universal, the universal church. The church body as a whole referred to as Catholic.
And we have the local church. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Yeah, and I mean, this is a discussion that I would like to have with you guys sometime Just to pick your brain. Because some people talk about us carrying over that word church From a different place.
Us Protestants may not use that word. But it's the most familiar word to us. So we continue to use it. But I think we're more familiar with assembly. Or could use the word assembly. But I think what I was talking about there is The different areas of our membership.
I mean, when we're born again, when God saves us initially He brings us into His assembly His kingdom His church. That's the universal, or capital C, Catholic Or lowercase c, Catholic church. And so that's where we start.
And then the verse that Dan quoted to us It's going to be like our, well, I guess it'll have to be our If we grew up outside the church. In many cases, and things may be changing. Because in the last several decades Most people were, or would maybe claim to be church goers.
People took their families to church. And many people were saved in church. But things may be moving in a different direction. So we used to talk about the first act of obedience is baptism. But now if you're outside the church Or got saved outside the church Didn't grow up in the church.
Maybe your first act of obedience is going to that Hebrews verse that Dan was talking about And finding that local assembly. Where then you can become baptized as a believer For the first time. And then you join that local assembly.
And that's where you yourself can be accountable To brothers and sisters. You can keep others accountable. You can be fed. You can feed others. And you can, you know, just like the characteristics We represent God and we reflect Him in that.
Where, you know, God shares His characteristics Among the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Where they are able to show love towards one another. They are able to communicate with one another.
And so the same thing is true When we reflect Him amongst one another. In that local assembly We're able to, you know, love one another Serve one another Discipline one another And so on and so forth.
So that's kind of what I mean in helping us understand And making those distinctions between the universal church Versus the local assembly.
Yeah, and so I can see a credo versus pedo debate. Brewing between you and Dan right now. Or were you sprinkling? I was sprinkling, yeah. I thought you were sprinkling. All right, so. Matt, by the way, we didn't get to.
We brought it up there. Matt Breeding's on with us. He said, hi, there's another Facebook user on. But that's all that comes up. Facebook user, we don't know who you are. Tell us who you are in the comments.
And we'll give you a shout out. All right, so. Universal invisible church. Local visible. I know those sometimes are taken kind of, you know. They ought to be taken at face value. What they're talking about.
So Jesse, or let's go to. Let's actually go to Tyler. Jesse, you had mentioned this. But let's see what Tyler has to say about this. What makes church membership different from anything on earth?
Abraham Kuyper, a philosopher from about 100 years ago So you know where I'm going. He once wrote in a fantastic book that is very hard to read That the church is both an institution and an organism. Sorry, that it's an institution and an organism.
That it's an institution. And that it's something organized. It's something established and very defined. That there is a hierarchy There is a certain order to it. But in the same token, it's an organism.
It's something living It is flowing It flourishes It grows It learns and things like this. There's not a parallel for that in the secular world. While we have the state Which the Bible is very clear is instituted by God.
The state is not an organism in the way that a church is. And it's certainly not purchased by the blood of Christ. I can't find anywhere in scripture where it says That Christ died for the propitiation of the Republican Party.
But I do find about how we are the ransom saints of God. And that he has built us into a spiritual house. There are a lot of great descriptions like that. Because we have this beautiful temple in the Old Testament.
We have many beautiful temples. And this is where they gathered to worship. It was organized. It was an institution. And in some ways it actually pointed to What God was going to build spiritually with his church.
And who's going to purchase it with his blood. And so we've been built up in a spiritual house. But it's not just this stony cold building. It is something living. It flows and that it grows. Going back to Ephesians chapter 4.
And it says he himself gave some to be apostles Some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. To do what? To equip the saints for the work of ministry. To build up the body of Christ Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's son.
Growing into maturity Stature measured by Christ's fullness. Then we will no longer be little children. Meaning we're growing. And we will not be tossed by the waves And blown around by every wind of teaching.
By human cunning with cleverness and techniques or deceit. But speaking the truth in love Let us grow in every way into him who is the head Meaning Christ. From him the whole body fitted and knit together By every supporting ligament.
Promotes the growth of the body for building up itself in love By the proper working of each individual part. So it is organized in that we have leaders. We have rules We have expectations. But it's an organism in the sense that it grows.
It matures. It guides itself. It learns. It adapts. Not while straying from its original purpose. But it is fluid It grows. I'm saying that a lot. But the point is The state does not grow beyond what it was originally designed to do.
And when it does It ceases to be God's design for the state. Wait a minute.
Let's let Dan interject here. He's bobbing on something right there. Go ahead, Dan.
Our government has definitely grown beyond what it was originally intended to do. Our government is the blob.
Have you ever seen the 1950s movies? The Blob. It's like this.
Bowery and everything. The Stay Puft Marshmallow Man Ghostbusters.
I think I agree with what you're saying though. It's the only thing that continues to grow bigger than what it was designed to. And still be good and functional. Because it seems that we're growing more in a Dysfunctional sort of way.
We'll go with that.
All right, so let's pick up. Let's keep this moving. I got another question. This we want to. This was asked that we address it on the podcast tonight. So Tyler gave us a great Scriptural, biblical explanation of the purpose of the local church.
The function of the local church. The function of the offices within the local church. So here's a question I would like to hear some official thoughts. That's not a question right there. But still, it's a statement being posed as a question.
Just go with it. I'd like to hear some thoughts on official membership. Official church membership. I .e. being voted in. Placed on the church roll. Signing papers. Versus just being committed to And involved in the local congregation.
Without any official status. And the actual question is Is commitment slash involvement sufficient. Or should the Christian make Official membership a priority? Jesse, let's start with you.
Amen. Yes, churches need to make membership a priority. Uh, they need to know who's who in the zoo. You know what I mean? You can't just come up into church buildings nowadays. And then, you know, leave.
So like, the community of God has a privilege on one side. And a responsibility on the other side. I agree. And people need to know. They need to know that coming in. It's not just a social club. You know, you don't go to church just to hang out.
Like, sure, we have, you know, relationships. And we do hang out at church, by the way. But at the same time, that's not our primary goal, right? So people like to think of church as a, you know. Where all the people go.
Where they're, when they're scared. You know what I mean? So after 9 -11, if you remember, 9 -12 Church attendance was like the highest in American history. Because everybody went to church the next day.
You know what I mean? And then, like, that same Sunday Church services was like back to normal. It was like the normal attendance rate. Because everybody thought that the world was going to end the next day.
Because of World War III and whatever. So it was like, everybody's going to church the next day. So people like to think that church is just a place. You just go when you're scared. Or, you know, a social club.
You know what I mean? So, yeah, shame on those churches out there. That are just social clubs and hangout spots. For, like, college-age people. And then they, you know, they ferment into, like, hookup spots.
And it's like, they don't teach and disciple their people. You know what I mean? I don't know where I heard this from. But, like, the pastors are supposed to be feeding the sheep. Not entertaining the goats.
That's virgin. Right, and that's what happens a lot in church. You know what I mean? So people don't really put two and two together. Like, when they think of membership, they think of Costco. They're like, what?
Like, membership? Like, do I have to pay into this? Like, you know what I mean? First of all, if you're paying into your church membership. It sounds like a scam. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? So you may want to double-check that.
So, yeah, so church, if... Because, you know, it depends on your eschatology. You know, your view on the end times. If your view on end times is incredibly positive, obviously. The world is getting...
Every Monday doesn't necessarily need to be a better place. If you're, like, a postmill. But at the same time, the world is getting better. If you're a postmill. You know what I mean? If you're a dispensational, the world's going to hell.
Because the world's getting... You have a very pessimistic point of view. You know what I mean? So, like, it depends on how you view the world. The relationship with the church in the world. You know, churches are not, you know.
A lot of churches are not offering membership. It's just a hangout spot. So churches do need to, you know, make it a priority. Because the world is becoming more secular. More post-Christian. So, you know, it'd be really nice to have an institution out there.
To be a light on the shining hill. To be like, this is the place. This is the last institution standing when the world collapses. You know what I mean? Just like the dark ages when the Roman Empire fell.
The only thing was standing was the church. You got the monasteries. Monasteries is the only thing there. Everything else has just collapsed. So, you know what I mean? And the strong churches will stand and will last.
That's right. The weak churches won't last. They're the ones that are getting swallowed up by the, you know. By the leftists and all the secular culture right now. So church membership kind of does kind of put a stiff arm You know, from those flakes.
And those people who are really part of the sheep. Because those who follow Jesus, they know his voice. So you're going to obey the scriptures and follow Jesus. And not like, oh, I don't want to become part of the membership.
Right.
So part of that. So are you saying then part of the issue that are taking place And part of the challenge of folks grasping the importance of literal. Official status church membership. Is because the church has been lax on this.
I agree with that. Oh, yeah. Is that what you're saying?
Yes, the church has been lax. You know what I mean? And we can't judge the world based on our circle of influence. You know what I mean? That's right. Like we go to church and we're, you know, we're holding it down.
But like that doesn't mean the church down the street. Across the way, across the river, you know, across the ocean is holding it down. Obviously God knows who are his. But you know what I mean? The world is becoming way more secular.
But at the same time, Christ is still ruling. So yeah, it all depends on your view in the end time. See how that's going to work out. But yeah, the church is definitely need to make it a priority.
I agree. So let's go to Dan. So should the Christian, the Christian, the believer in Jesus Christ The one who is born again. Make official membership a priority. In your full screen.
That's right. Yeah, absolutely. They should make it a priority. Because one of the one of the issues I think people have wrapping their heads around the idea of church membership. Is that they don't think of it as the same thing as kingdom citizenship.
Which really we should we should think. More in those terms than we do in terms of like club membership. Or membership with some other organization that we're familiar with on on earth. Amen. So if we think of it as a kingdom citizenship.
Like if you go into a new kingdom that you want to be a part of. A new country that you're trying to be a citizen of. Yeah, he's a handsome fella. You're going to you're going to need to seek out. You know, get your you want that citizenship.
You want to pass the test. You want to get your green card, so to speak. Um, and and what that does is it gives you. Or it entitles you to all the rights and privileges of the people in that citizenry.
So when we think of those who are who are a part of the kingdom of god, um, we. When you think of church membership and those who are a part of the kingdom of god. What they have then access to is to the teaching of the church Sacraments to Discipline from godly leaders who've been vetted and had their hands laid on by people who have gone.
Hopefully, but not always all the way back to the apostles um. It's a it's the way that god has set things up. It's one of those things where. If you seek out church membership, you're seeking. A a representation of kingdom citizenship here on earth because you're making a claim that I'm living as one who has hope in the gospel of jesus christ that one day.
When everything is said and done I will be a part of that kingdom and that one that kingdom will be here on the earth.
Yep, like jesse was saying the shiny city on the hill. Right. So rob, let's jump up to you. You're sitting up there. You've I can tell you've got some deep thoughts happening. So let's Let's let's pick your brain now on this.
Let's let's talk a little bit further so we talk about the the importance of church membership, and I would say uh would buy a consensus. Head nod. Uh and amen, whatever the case may be is pastor. I like to hear amens if it's the truth.
Do we have a consensus on the fact that official church membership should be a priority in the life of a christian? Amen, amen, I I would say yes. Yes. All right. So rob on that note. What are the benefits of official church membership?
I think a lot of us have touched on many of them already. Um. You you're going to receive love. You're going to be able to give love. Um. There there's that idea of taking care of one another um accountability um being able to Discipleship and disciple others to be disciplined and discipline others.
Um all for uh, the purpose of reconciliation and and glorifying god um. Community fellowship, um first and foremost being obedient to christ submitting to him. Um. And learning about him knowing him more loving him more.
Um through all this um. So That and and many other reasons. Uh while it's beneficial to join a fellowship and be officially a member on the rolls at a local church. Um as you guys were talking I was looking at some other verses, uh, just to quickly throw them in there.
Um paul Paul makes distinctions and he makes lists if you look at galatians chapter 6 verse 10 He says therefore as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people. Especially and there's the distinction especially to those of the household of faith.
So There paul is making a distinction between yeah, we're supposed to do good to all men, but especially Those within the household of faith. So how do we know who's in the household of faith? Um, it's those who are on the rolls and I I think I think we have to do that practically.
Because we're not God. You know god is able to judge the heart see the heart and make those distinctions and make those uh disciplines, um. Because because he knows and he he has the ability but but for us Putting out putting it on paper, um.
Uh. A class or an an interview uh making sure That that somebody is who is joining your fellowship is truly who they say they are, you know. Those type of things are just because of our our limitations.
We're not God and um, and it helps us to determine those things um, but then that one last verse that I wanted to mention was you know, the galatians 6 talks about a distinction that paul makes and then he makes A list and first in the chapter 4 when he's talking about taking care of the widows.
Um verse 9 a widow is to put on a list only and then he gives the qualifications of That she has to meet before she's put on a list To be taken care of but yeah there and there's a benefit for the for the widow That she's taken care of.
Yeah, the local church. Um The local church Should be the body should be the group that Particularly like you just read there takes care of its own. I think I think one of the one of the things that um, I think a And I don't know maybe this is not the exact right term that i'm going to use here but one of the uh overblown ideas From within church membership is that it is one particular church or one particular association of churches Responsibility to take care for the needs of the world when the scriptures Teach us clearly like you just read That it is the responsibility of the local body to care for its own the church.
Uh, like reformata reformata baptist church can't can't take care of the whole world. We can take we can Particularly zoom in and focus on those within the congregation That have needs and we can better help them with a Concentrated focus of care then we can sprinkling a little bit of care throughout the world.
Yeah, a couple weeks ago. My pastor said, uh, there are no poor in the church. Because we take care of our own.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we're failing at our intended purpose and we're doing. We're doing what the world's supposed to do when they see us. So the modern church Looks at the world and they say well we want to be that so we can attract more members but when in reality we're supposed to be Lifting up and taking care of our our widows and our orphans and our own so that when the world looks in at us They say I want that.
And we've got a good flock. Yeah, and that goes to that goes to your uh question. Rob, uh, you or your statement you said I think we should touch on the the false way that so many view church membership as consumers.
Yeah, exactly rather than as believers. So uh tyler. We've not we've not got to you in a minute. Let's ask this question to you. So how is church membership viewed consumeristically? Or basically you let me let me put it another way I break it down like this.
Let me say this. How is church membership viewed as though that you're going? To jumbo buffet for lunch and you've got about a thousand different things that you like and or that are set before you. But you only want a few.
How is that happening with folks in the world today?
There's there's quite a few avenues where we see that, um taking shape some of it depends on. Certain persuasions for example, um, we talked a while back. About the songs we sing and about uh, often we focus on a particular style or a particular sound.
And then there are some elements like that that we go to this church. Because we like music or we like the the accent the guy preaches in or things like that. Yeah and so there's that that pick and choose kind of notion there that it's.
Who's closer to my preferences as opposed to who's closer to the bible? And then moving outwards a little bit with consumerism to um, like you said about looking at it not as believers, but as consumers or as customers that we.
We might enter a church looking solely to be served and that's the main focus is where will I be served? Yeah which is something i'm sure we're all guilty of at some point that that's a. That's a selfish mindset.
Um should the church serve? Absolutely. Um, but that shouldn't be our prime directive is to be served right um. And so there's there are different layers to how we look at the church as as if we're customers, um.
And the church is like a grocery store that we come in we get the service. I I put my money in the basket and I go on my merry little way um, I I pay this um amount to the tithe every week so I should have this say in what songs we sing or things like that and We get into that mindset as well that I I own the church that I can direct the church because i'm an investor I'm a customer i'm a consumer.
Yeah, there's different there are different aspects there, right? Um,. And so there is there is a growth issue that um combats that. Um going back to this idea of growth that we are sanctified. By coming under the word of god by being surrounded by the people of god.
Yeah, and that is something that is rooted out through our sanctification. Philippians chapter 2 tells us to work out our salvation with fear and with trembling for it is god that works in you amen. And so as we approach the church, we are approaching we have to approach the church as people that are working out the deeper points of their salvation with fear and trembling that is that we We know who god is we know that god needs to be taken seriously.
And that we are wretched sinners in need of a great savior. And that we are willing to dive deep into who god is what he's done and how we become benefactors of that in Theological terms we call that the person and work of christ who he is what he did and how we become recipients of that.
And I think that undergirds everything the church is. Is who christ is what he did and how we become a part of that? And that also plays into Our sanctification as well as um the holy spirit, but that's a whole nother conversation that when we come under the lordship of god.
When the fact that christ is king is realized in our lives. There is there is change there is growth there is pruning. As we are being conformed to the image of christ in every thought word indeed Including how we operate in the church.
Amen.
Amen. Let's move to this. We got two more questions two more issues. We'll we'll try to confront here. So rob This question here. Talk to us about this and we're going to jump up back over to jesse. What does it mean that the back door should be easier to get out of than the front?
What did you mean by that? So that comes up a lot when you um, when you actually confront study and try to redevelop the the biblical doctrine of church discipline, um in your church again, and so You Just as a pastor wants to protect the pulpit.
Um when when he has to be absent and he wants um He needs someone to fill in he wants somebody in there that he can trust that's going to preach the word. That um that's going to feed his flock that's going to exposit scripture.
And so the same thing is true for for the church. Um, we're we're supposed to protect our flock and And that's part of the responsibility of the pastor and the church itself uh is protecting its flock and so.
There's the concept and the and the idea of unregenerate church membership um there there's Um fearfully a lot of people that we put on our roles that that are unregenerate and so you um You you look at the topic of easy believe it easy believism I'm, just trying to get as many people as you can down the aisle get them baptized and get them.
Um, you know all the roles just so you can um Escalate your numbers and look good in your associations or whatever um and so we we make it so easy, but we We give people a false sense of hope Um and enable them to continue to live their lives in the world Um, as long as they checked a few boxes.
And then that causes trouble within the church because people aren't thinking Um people the holy spirit's not working these people people aren't thinking biblically. They're not thinking Um in terms of what christ what god would have us to do here in the church, but it's as tyler was pointing out.
It's um It's how can it best serve me? How can it best serve my family? Um, what do I want in the church? Um, and so It should be harder to get in the the front door.
Than it then it is the back. Um, because I get you we will hear you now.
We want to protect our our flock and it's also not just protect our flock but also to uh protect Uh those who are are wanting in uh to give them better assurance of their faith and help them understand their Um their relationship with god and not give them a false sense of hope and then you know, the the back door um is That subject of church discipline, which we'll get to in another podcast.
Um, You know church discipline when it's not familiar to folks anymore but when we talk about church discipline, the first thing that people think about is uh, well Is we don't want to throw people out of the church and and cast stones and judge people and That's not all that's like the very last Resort that you rarely come to is kicking somebody as communication kicking somebody out of the church take them off the rolls.
Um, it's it's going to some person one-on-one and the whole the whole process. Is the goal is reconciliation? That's right with the church, um but it it should be easier to to go through that process um as a church.
Then Get actually getting in. I would I would go even I would go even further and just Not even talk about not even think about a back door because that's the whole point of church membership. Is being there yeah being committed being caring being disciplined and Staying for the long run.
Church membership is viewed as a temporary thing. Oh, i'll just go here now. Uh, so jesse, I noticed in messenger earlier. You're in colorado, right?
I am the great states. Yep. Yeah so Earth so.
So uh, the the rest of these guys were all east coast and Uh dan you're from Kentucky originally, right? North carolina north carolina. So you were so so you're raised in the country. Uh tyler's raised in the country rob's raised in the country.
I was raised in the country. I don't know if he was raised in the country or not. Uh jesse, but the thing about church membership in the in the south in the bible belt is basically uh, you go to a church and then um when something happens that you don't like you don't.
Uh get mad, but you act spiritual and you say this. I feel like the lord's telling me it's time to move on. So. Yeah, that is spiritualizing. Uh. That is spiritualizing and demonstrating and evidencing spiritual immaturity because the spiritually mature christian looks at church.
I I probably get hate mail for this but i'm gonna say it I think that a christian needs to look at church membership the same way. We look at marriage. For the long haul. Because When we get in when we join a local body.
We are we are joining that local body to to care for to love to spend. To laugh with to cry with to rejoice with to get mad at even because that's the reality of it. We're going to get mad. Who are the people we get mad at the most in this world?
Probably if you're like me, it's your family members. And your family members you got to be able to smack in the back of the head now. I'm, not saying this as a pastor. I'm just saying this brother to brother, right?
You got to be with you got to be able to smack them in the back of the head and say you are acting like an idiot. Why don't you straighten up? This is what the bible says. Let's go to god in prayer together.
Let's work through this. Let's let's go. Let's go the extra mile together here and let's work through this and what happens when that takes place is that. Our bond is strengthened within the body our love for one another is strengthened because guess what?
We realized that when we look at our brothers and sisters in christ that they ain't no different than we are. That they fall and that they fail. But we have the same savior and we have the same advocate that we go to we have the same lord that we cry and confess our sins to and he Is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Church membership should be centered around christ and not around ourselves. When that's the case the body itself is blessed. And the Uh, the individual christian is blessed. Wait a second. Becky's saying something here.
Let me bring this up. If my husband hits me in the back of the head, i'm coming for you claude. Here's the thing. It's a shame that we got to make a disclaimer on this as a pastor myself. I'm, not saying this is how we treat church members.
I am saying brother to brother sister to sister in christ. We need to have a relationship. Such and so that we can be completely honest with one another and so. If dan and i'll say this becky if dan does that.
The rest of these guys here. We're gonna we're gonna pull our money. We'll get a plane ticket and we'll come and whoop dan if he does that. Because that is not a husband loving his wife like christ loves the church I think all four of us can take him guys.
I might be in new york by believing the second amendment.
So, uh, let's let's let's move to a close here, uh, jesse let's close with you here. Why is it would you say it's important to keep a to clean and maintain? An updated.
Church membership role. Well because you want to know. Who's actually going to church? You know what I mean? Because you don't want to be having. Like a family member or like a person, you know on your roles.
Who hasn't been there for years? You know what? I mean if that's the case, then um, I would question, you know, whoever's updating the spreadsheets. They probably need a choose a better person for that job.
You fired. You know what? I mean? Um, you know, I don't know maybe when somebody leaves or transitions or a church membership transfer. Maybe after maybe give them a year maybe less six months a year uh, you know what I mean?
Um, it's up to every session or church leadership to decide on. The maximum or minimum but you definitely want to keep tabs on updating the spreadsheet imagine if you Never updated the address on your license for the past 10 years past 15 years.
You know what? I mean? You'll be like Wow, I still have that address. Wow, you know what I mean? It's just like you know sooner or later. It's going to come bite you in the butt. You're like, come on.
Update your address on your license man. Come on or imagine if you don't update your you know. You know your tags on your car. You know what I mean? You're gonna get pulled over once in a while. It's gonna be embarrassing.
You're gonna be like, oh rob still comes to this church. You know, they're like who? Rob, like yeah. They're like Dude, he left back in 72. Yeah. You're like oh. You know what I mean, so I think it's important to keep uh to you know to uh.
If you read one of the books, um called nine marks of a healthy church one of the chapters in there says. It's about growth and obviously to grow you need to prune and you know discipleship and um, you know.
Discipline is involving growth. You know what I mean? And you need to prune so like. When you remove church, you know church members. You know people need you know churches need to edit all that stuff.
So yeah. So when you got two new couples, they got maybe you know, somebody changed their last name or somebody became a widow. So yeah, it's incredibly important. That's like it. You know what I mean?
I think if a pastor says I don't know anybody, you know, I only know faces and I don't know anybody in here in this room. You know what I mean? Like Yeah, and it's and vice versa if if a church member says I don't even know.
You know my pastor. I don't even know who who is he married? You know what I mean? Live here, you know what I mean? Like if the elder and deacon are looking at each other like you're an.
Uh-oh, I think I think you may have hit a button that was not this one. We can't we can't hear you. I can't hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah now we can.
All right. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, like if the elder and a deacon are looking at each other and they don't know each other I'd say that's a bad sign. Um communication is key as well because you know that like a member a member if if a member wants to leave the church.
Um, there's a process and there's a right way in a wrong way to leave a church, right? So like, uh, if a church membership if a church members are leaving vanishing. You know what I mean? I think the elders have the responsibility somehow to keep tabs like call them email them Drop by by a visit and going back to the idea.
You're mentioning. Um, you know, you're in it for the long haul. I think I think you could definitely find that in church history because when you go back to the early days of the colonials. Especially in england, uh ireland and stuff like that.
You go to these old churches and what do you see? Yeah, you see cemeteries. Yeah, you see cemeteries behind churches old churches now in the modern day. It's kind of creepy but you know what I mean, but like you're like well, uh, you don't want to be there after you know, 10 o 'clock, but.
But in the old days they had church buildings had like their own water well. You know what? I mean? They had their own cemeteries. They had their own self-sufficient. They're like islands of like they had everything and their own gardens and stuff like that.
So there's something to that being self-reliant type community that I think we kind of lost. Um during the I don't know industrial revolution or you know after world war ii or something like that that we kind of um.
We may need back in the future probably you know, I mean, um, and that probably does have to come down from legislation because that comes down to Building code like you can't just build a building and have a cemetery, you know what I mean?
And it's like well back in the day. You know what? I mean? A lot of cemeteries are built right next to churches. So Yep. You know elect somebody who would change that and then we could fix that.
You know what? I mean? So yeah, I agree in in in closing. I would add this one last thing uh, and then rob if you wouldn't care to Close us out with the gospel here in a minute. But the importance of maintaining church membership bro, like what you just said jesse is very very important.
Uh, and I would go a step further and say Uh, it's very important so that As the church is designed and set up to be under a plurality of elders with deacons serving so that the elders can Love and pastor and care.
For the folks that are there goes back to that concentrated care. We can't care for the church member that's on the roll that ain't been there in 20 years there's. I mean, there's no way to keep up with that.
But when you know who's there regularly. Then you can set aside time effort energy resources. To actually focus on those members so that they get the best care possible whether it's Encouragement whether it's discipline whether it's food a physical needs right food uh electricity.
Whatever the case may be but so that we actually do What christ commanded us to do and that is care for one another guys. This is a big topic. Rob had laid us out big time on this Rob, I hope I did you justice on this.
Rob's usually the the one leading here. He gets he he got a kind of a reprieve tonight just to sit and be put on the spot and answer questions but uh Thankful again rob you gave us this opportunity to to host tonight.
Uh, any of you guys got any closing comments, uh, one minute closing comment. Let's start with tyler Tyler start your timer one minute closing comments on the importance of church membership.
Um I would say invest in the body of christ I would say as we've been talking about all night with Be rooted in this community even with the hard stuff. Even when it gets complicated and messy that we we invest in people that this is important.
This is worth the work.
Amen Rob. And church membership important local church membership, you know, I would just echo that I know we've talked a lot about.
Having names on roles, but those names on roles. We have responsibility from scripture. To be involved and so I would echo what tyler was saying that if. Join a church become a church member. Dig into scripture and obey christ.
Amen, dan.
Vice church local church membership important.
Local church membership is important because God has given us a group of people to work with in order to Push each other closer to christ. To remind each other of the gospel to uplift each other. And to go out and build something.
Uh in the community, which is the kingdom of god now, obviously god does the actual no heavy lifting but He's called us to go out there and to disciple the nations and to baptize people and command them to do everything that god has told us to do.
Uh, it's it's. It gives meaning and purpose to your life um. Because It's something to do. It's what god's called you to do if he called you to do it. It's not going to disappoint. Amen. Amen.
And jesse. Switching gears. Question. Who's the head of the church? Hey christ. Christ is the head of the church, man. That's right. Not many members.
That's right many members. Many members one one body. Yeah, right. What's the importance of the local church?
Jesse, you know, I really have um. The that person who's on the fence. I have him in mind because there's many people out there that are on the fence about Joining the church and I want to direct this last second last second to them.
Um, listen, you know. The secular world is going to give you despair. That's the result of secularism. It gives you despair. The church the gospel because of the gospel is going to give you hope. It's going to give you hope.
Amen. Um, you know what I mean? And you cannot find that hope Outside of the church and that's because the church has the gospel. Amen. And that's part of god's plan. Um is to use the church to spread the gospel spread the hope.
So if you're thinking that you can find hope in the world, you know what I mean? You cannot you can only find despair deep dark despair. And if you're looking for hope you're not going to find it. There's no hope in the world.
You know what I mean? There's no salvation outside of jesus. You cannot have god as your father without having the church as your mother. I think so. Amen.
Amen. Guys, thank you rob. Lead us out tell us about the hope the head.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have no greater desire any of us than people Others coming to know jesus christ as their lord and saver god saving them and so Just as ray comfort said We don't know that we need a cure until we know that we have a problem.
And so we we follow scripture and let let the law lead us to christ. And how do we do that? Well, we we look at god's law. We look at his which reflects his character and who he is and his requirements uh of perfection and we see that.
Uh, we have broken all of his commandments. If you if you break it down, we've broken every single one of them. But just to reassure you we have all lied. We have all stolen no matter its value. We've all Looked with lust.
We've all Dishonored our our parents. We've all blasphemed in some way and the list goes on and on and on we have broken god's law and james chapter 2 verse 10 says if we've kept the whole law and yet even Stolen at one point.
We're guilty of it all. So We need a savior. We need rescuing. We need someone outside of us to come in and deliver us and and rescue us because we can't do it ourselves. Uh, we are as jesse said we are in deep dark despair being in the world and God in his mercy and his kindness to to glorify himself and to love us sent forth his one and only son.
That everyone believing in him Might not perish but have everlasting life. Scripture calls us to repent of our sin turn from our sin. And put our faith and trust in jesus christ and there's no greater No greater gift um to us to hear that that you have Repented of your sins put your faith and trust in jesus christ, and that's how god brings most glory to himself is saving wretches saving his own enemies.
And we would encourage you and exhort you to repent of your sins put your faith and trust in jesus christ tonight.
Amen. Amen. So guys hang out here for just a minute. We'll play the outro and we'll end the broadcast. Rob's wanting to talk to us for just a minute.