July 1, 2026 Show with Ronnie Qualls on “One Pastor’s Journey Out From the Church of the Firstborn”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this very first day of July 2026.

Before I introduce to you our guest, co-host, and topic of the day, I want to remind all of you that this Friday, July 3rd, two days from now, we are having what could be the very first interview ever on any media outlet of interviews with two members, two former members, I should say, of the cult known as Swedenborgianism.

Swedenborgianism is a cult that began with the followers of a brilliant scientist in the 18th century named Immanuel Swedenborg, who was in Sweden and had not only developed ideas for many inventions, including ideas for an airplane and a submarine and many other things.

He was indeed a brilliant man, but he was also a man who was dabbling in the occult, perhaps even more than just dabbling in it. He was championing it, although I don't think he ever called it that. He was a spirit medium, claimed to contact the dead as well as extraterrestrials on other planets.

Even back in the 18th century, there were those who firmly believed there was intelligent life on other planets, and one of those individuals was Immanuel Swedenborg, and his cult carries on that belief today.

Well, we are having two former members of that cult who were saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and are evangelicals, and they are going to tell their story and tell us more about this cult.

And the reason why I believe it has relevance, even though this cult is comparatively a small group of people, it is global, but it's comparatively a small group. With the rise of belief and fascination and fixation of the existence of intelligent life on other planets, I think that this cult may become eventually a prime group seducing people in that category of fascination who are trying to combine a spirituality and a belief in Jesus Christ with a belief in intelligent life on other planets.

And so I thought that this interview would be important. They do reject the biblical Christ. They deny the Trinity. But this should be, I think, a fascinating interview. Mark your calendars for this Friday, as we have on the program Tony Calley and his sister Terri Carturo.

And I think that this is, if I'm not mistaken, in fact, anybody listening can let me know if I'm incorrect, but I think this may be the very first interview with anyone who has left this cult, especially those who are born-again believers and telling their story to the public.

I have scanned the Internet for over a year looking for such people and even asked AI. No answers came up for evangelicals who were formerly in the Swedenborgianist cult. And then finally, I just advertised on Facebook that I was looking for such people and got my volunteers, Tony Calley and Terri Carturo.

I think I may have mispronounced her name the first time I mentioned her. But please tune in this Friday. I think it will be quite fascinating. But today we have a first-time guest, and this may be also a first-time interview ever with a former member of a cult we're going to discuss today that I've never discussed on this program before.

In fact, I just discovered this cult very recently. Today we have joining us for the very first time, Ronnie Qualls, pastor of First Baptist Church of Bowlegs, Oklahoma. And he's going to be addressing one pastor's journey out from the cult known as Church of the Firstborn.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ronnie Qualls. Thank you. I appreciate that. And we also It's good to be here. And it's great to have you here.

And we have joining us today is a special co-host, my dear friend, Jason Contino, who is a former Jehovah's Witness saved by the grace and mercy of the true Jesus Christ of Scripture, who today is the pastor of Harborview Christian Church of Port Jefferson, Long Island, New York.

And he has been on the program before, so you can just look up his name in the search engine of IronSharpensIronRadio .com, Contino, C-O-N-T-I-N-O. That's Jason Contino. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jason Contino.

Thanks for having me, Chris. Looking forward to this show today.

I am as well. And I want to thank you and your lovely wife again for allowing me to stay in your lovely, comfortable home there in Port Jefferson not long ago and treating me to dinner at that wonderful restaurant, German restaurant.

And I just had a blast with you guys, and I hope that we have the opportunity to share fellowship again. Amen. Well, Ronnie, whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony.

But in this case, your whole interview is based on your salvation testimony out from the cult known as the Church of the Firstborn. So we're going to be doing something a little bit different than we normally do.

We're going to have the bulk of the interview start with an explanation and description of the Church of the Firstborn. And then we're going to find out how you discovered this group and got seduced into participation in it, eventually becoming an elder in it and an evangelist, and how you first, to the praise and glory of Jesus Christ, discovered the true gospel and the true Jesus Christ of Scripture and were saved out from that cult.

So tell us about this Church of the Firstborn. How did you first become aware of it, and what are its primary heresies?

Okay. How I first became aware of it began when I was 16, and I met this girl that was 15 years old, who is currently my wife. We met then, and she told me that she went to a small church by her house.

And at this particular time, we had just started going to a little Baptist church up by our house. And so, you know, I wasn't a Christian. I was a false convert, to be honest, even at that point. But, you know, I had the mind that I was a Christian, so she was going to church, and that's what I was looking for.

But, however, that was my introduction into it. Now, what the church was like, I'll just give you the beliefs first. That would be the core beliefs. First thing is they believe that they're the only church that there is.

They're the only ones going to heaven.

That can't be true about them, because that's what my church's description is.

You do run into problems like that. But they believe that. They believe that the way of salvation, basically, if you're going to term it like that, was it was always preached, you have to keep all the commandments to go to heaven.

Now, at the same time, not one of them would claim that, not even realizing that by their own teaching, they would be condemning themselves to hell, you know. But they believed in baptismal regeneration.

You know, they believed it like this, that when a person got baptized, that washed away all the sins, and they became a clean vessel. And the next step was, as soon as they'd come out of the water, he'd set them in a chair and the ministers or elders would gather around and lay hands on them for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

They did not believe that the Spirit of God could dwell in an unclean vessel. So they believe that that water baptism is what, you know, how your sins were washed away. Then the only time that we would do communion was when someone was baptized.

And so, you know, we didn't call it communion. We didn't even call it the Lord's Supper. We called it an ordinance supper. It kind of comes out of Corinthians there in the 11th chapter. It says, keep the ordinances.

And it would consist of the foot washing, the supper. And then I'll give you this one. I hate to tell you this part of it, but the customary greeting in the Church of the Firstborn was if you were a baptized believer, we, and this is biblical.

I just want you guys to know this, okay? But we greeted with a holy kiss, okay? And so there would be a greeting part of the ordinance supper. And see, I think that's it as far as like what it was to what we term coming to the faith or to be saved, you know, be a part of the body.

And then the primary things after that would be the biggest one would be that we did not believe in going to doctors. We did not believe in using any medicine. Matter of fact, Jason, I worked underground in a mine in Montana, and there was a JW that was my partner for a couple of days.

And he was going to be very, you know, bold in his witness and asked me what I believed about blood. And I said, well, I don't know what you mean. He says, well, we abstain from blood. And I said, well, we got you beat.

We don't even go to doctors. But I'll tell you this, that one there was very huge. It still is in the firstborn church. It's like this, the way they believed it was if you were to turn to man, you were not trusting in the Lord.

So they would use passages like where King Asa, when he swelled up in his feet and the Bible says that he trusted in the positions of the land and not to the Lord. James 5, you know, if you're sick, call for the elders of the church and the prayer of faith will save him.

You know, verses like Jeremiah 17 where it says, you know, blessed be the man that trusts in the Lord, you know, and it goes on. And then, but cursed be the man that trusts in man. Another one that they would hold to, and this would be like, say that you were old age or you had cancer.

Let's say you were dying, you were at home dying on your deathbed. And, you know, Paul told Timothy, he says, if we suffer with him, we'll reign with him. And without realizing it, a lot of times the way they kind of believed it was the suffering that you were doing at the end of your life was, it was like making atonement for things you had done wrong.

Now, they didn't use that word atonement. But at one point when I was an elder, I told my co-elder, I said, you do realize that when you're saying that, we're saying that we're making atonement for what the blood of Christ couldn't atone for.

It's like we're going to suffer for wrongs that we may have done in order that we can go to heaven. And part of it was they would preach one thing, you know, like say, keep all the commandments on one day.

And then the next time they might preach it up and they would be like, nobody's perfect, you know, not realizing the contradiction. So a few other things that would be similar to like the Pentecostals, women did not cut their hair.

That, you know, I had a lot of pride there for a while. My wife had the longest hair in the church we was in. You kind of felt like, you know, you were like the elder at the gate or something, you know.

But, yeah, there was that. And now we weren't at church that the women were dressed as all the time. But when it came time for church, all the women were dressed. I mean, it was like you didn't come in in a pair of pants.

But any other time, you know, they'd sometimes tie fit in jeans, you know. But another interesting thing is the way the services went. There was no structure. There was no organization to it. Everything was under the idea of being led by the spirit.

So like you'd usually start church at, say, 10 o 'clock on a Sunday morning. Somebody would open with a song and then someone might say, let's pray. And when you pray, you would always kneel down. Somebody might continue with another prayer.

But it was just as you felt led. So you might have more than one preacher, song. There was no particular part of the service that was, you know, given to song or preaching. It was just scattered throughout.

And, as a matter of fact, not just the service, but the way they believed their life, everything was led by the spirit of God. So, yeah, that kind of sum up, you know, what they believed like.

Well, when you say they believed they were led by the spirit of God, and before you said that after someone was baptized, they had hands laid on them by the elders so that they would be filled with the Holy Spirit, what did they actually believe the Holy Spirit is?

Did they believe in the Trinity or claim to? Did they believe in the deity of Christ? Tell us more about their understanding of the Godhead.

Okay. As far as the Godhead, they did not believe in the Trinity. They believed that Jesus was the son of God, but he was not God the son. You know, to be honest, there wasn't a lot of teaching on it.

So, I mean, even on like the person of Christ, he was just the son of God that came and died for our sins, but he was not God the son. As far as the Holy Spirit, I don't, you know, that's a great question, Chris, because it was something that was never really addressed other than like, you know, being led by the spirit, being filled with the spirit.

It was, I don't, I would just have to say this. I don't think that the majority would say that that was God, that that was just the spirit of God. Okay. Well, you know, one thing about the Church of the Firstborn, there is no statement of faith.

There is no universal, like, here's what we believe. So, from church to church, you can get a little different flavor, you know, a different take on certain things like that. Now, with this being said, I will say this.

There are some, a very small number in the Church of the Firstborn, even to this day, that they do believe in the Trinity. They do believe that Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity. They believe the Holy Spirit is God.

My argument, I mean, and some of these guys are friends of mine, and I talked to him and I'm like, I don't understand how they can remain there. And they said, well, I feel like, you know, I've got to work there.

But I'm like, you have one message. You have one message, and that's the gospel. There's no point in preaching all these other things when people aren't saved. Because, you know, if they're trusting in something other than the finished work of Christ, they're not saved.

And so, you know, but there are a handful of people that would believe things correctly like that.

Now, how far back can you trace the origins of this group?

Well, a couple of the men who passed on now, and they were much older than me when I knew them, they did as much history as they could. And both of them got to, like, around the early 1800s, early to mid -1800s.

And years ago, the church just kind of went by the name of the true believers. Some would say the true followers. I even heard some of them called it the true Viners, like off the vine. But in World War I, I think it was about 1914, they had to submit a legal document to the government to be recognized as a church in order to be a conscientious objector, you know, to go into the war like that, where they could just be a cook or a medic or something.

And interestingly enough, some of the church rejected that. And they said, we're not the church of the first one. We are the true believers. And there was a group, you know, a pretty good number that migrated up towards Idaho, Oregon, and Washington.

And interesting, I listened to a podcast by Cultish a couple years ago, and there was a brother that had been, he lived in Oregon City, Oregon, and he had come out of a group called the true believers.

And I remember they asked him, you know, where they came from, what was their origins. He didn't know. And I was pretty confident I did know, because when he was saying the things they believed, so much of it was very much like, you know, what we believed.

But, you know, so it really just goes back to about the 1800s. You know, I don't remember anything being from this. Now, the teaching was always we came over on the Mayflower, but nobody could trace it back that far.

And there was some bad, not easy proof.

There is some weird, unprovable connection to the Mormons, correct?

It does look like that. It looks like that it's possible that somebody branched out of the Mormon church and started this because the document that was given to the government was called the Ten Articles of the Faith.

And that article, that paper is the same thing. The Mormons have the same thing. They've added, I don't know, about four or five more to it. But the ten that the Church of the Firstborn used, there's ten points that are word for word on the Mormon's document.

And the interesting thing is the Mormons had theirs first. So if somebody copied somebody, it looks like we probably copied them, you know.

And where are these congregations of this cult, Church of the Firstborn, where are they located?

The majority of them are in Oklahoma. And then your other states that would have, you know, quite a few would be Arkansas, Indiana, Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon. There's one or two in Idaho.

There's one or so in New Mexico, a couple in Texas. There's one or two in Alabama. There's one group that's in Kentucky, but I think it's probably just a house church. Some of the churches, it would be like the brethren would move off somewhere where there wasn't, you know, a population of, you know, the members there.

And so they would just start having service in their house. So it was just termed as a house church. Nonetheless, it was recognized as a church. But, I mean, I would say probably in about a dozen to 15 states.

But Oklahoma, it would be the biggest, you know, congregations. I mean, the most of the members there.

Lynn, do you have any idea of the numbers of members of this cult?

Gosh, man, I used to have that down a little bit better. I would say that it, because most congregations are relatively small, like, you know, 20 to 25 people. You had a few that was right over 300. But it seemed like if I remember right, it was the neighborhood between like maybe 15 and 20 ,000, you know, total members.

One way that we, I'll tell you one of the biggest things about the church of what the appealing factor of it was. The love that they had for one another, the hospitality and the love that they showed and demonstrated, it was second to none.

Like, I'll give you this example. Like when today, like if I was to go preach somewhere, it would be because somebody called me and said, hey, we'd like for you to come have revival or whatever. And they'd invite me out.

Well, in the church of the first one, because it was all led by the spirit, it was completely backwards. If I felt like preaching, like say in Colorado from Oklahoma, I would call out to whatever church.

I'd call an elder and I'd say, hey, this is Brother Ronnie Qualls. I'm on my way out. I'd like to have a meeting tonight. We just, we would refer to service as just meeting. And he'd say, okay, I'll get on the phone and we'll try to round the brother nut.

And I might go out there and I might, you know, each night when that service was over at the end, they would say, would anybody like to have a meeting tomorrow night? I'd say I would. And I, you know, it might go on four or five, six, seven nights.

Now, while I was there, to go try to find a hotel would have been completely offensive. The church members would actually, not hostile, but playfully, they would fight over having you at their home. And when they brought you there, they gave you their very best.

So when you look at that and you saw the kind of love they had for one another, I'll just be honest. I still struggle with what is out here today, you know, comparatively speaking.

Now, before Jason asks you a question, I just wanted to find out why it is that you rose up in the ranks from evangelist to elder. What did they see in you that they believed was worthy of that privilege?

And what was going through your own mind as you were giving these opportunities as an evangelist and so on?

Okay. So the way it works, like I said, everything is led by the spirit. So the only qualification that there really is, is if you've been called to preach is basically you say, I feel like I've been called to preach.

There's no schooling. There's no, no type of training whatsoever. You grab your King James Bible and you walk through the pulpit and you start preaching. Now, I will say this. I do believe that God did call me to preach and gifted me to do so.

But the church noticed that and I was, there's two kinds of people in that church. You were either raised in the faith, like my wife, she was born and raised in it. Her family on both sides, her mom and dad go, you know, generations deep.

But I was the guy that wasn't raised in the faith. So I was the guy they said, I would be from the world. So she was raised in the faith. I was from the world. Well, because I was from the world and when I really bought it hook, line and sinker and started going and preaching everywhere, people took notice.

And I don't want to be boastful, but, but I, I could preach and, and man, they, people just gravitated towards it. I mean, there was a number of times, especially at the last several years where I would, you know, call out a meeting and they would say, well, man, come on, Brother Ronnie.

But people don't really come out for the night meetings anymore. And I'd show up and the place would be packed. Now, some of them loved me and there was a handful that didn't like me, you know, but nonetheless, people were there.

So it goes from that. And then in 1993, I was the age of 27 years old. My family and two other families moved to Absarkey, Montana. And we, we planted a church there. There was already a group there. And then we, we came up there and it kind of became official.

And it was like this, it was almost like they said, who would like to pastor this church? Step forward. And all the men are standing there and nobody stepped forward, but all the other guys stepped back.

So even though I was the youngest man in the church, the, the, the bulk, the majority of all the preaching was done by me, the counseling, anything like that, you know, and I'm not saying I did it all.

But, but the majority of it was. And so even in that, I have a podcast called the uneducated and untrained pastor. And I just, I'm like, this is for the guy that's never had any formal education or formal training.

You know, God can, he can work through you. So, but that's what it was, Chris. I mean, you know, it's just that people saw that. And then in 2000, we moved back to Oklahoma, the church where I had been baptized at and it started, you know, for me, I came back and within that year, I was one of the first two elders to ever be ordained in that church.

And, and that was about the time that things really began to unravel. So, but yeah, that, that's how that happened. So if that makes any sense. Pastor Jason, you have a question?

Okay. So how long were you in it? You, 16 years of age, you became, you joined the church, were you baptized in the church at that age or?

No, at 16, when I first encountered it at 19, I was baptized and I was in it for 18, maybe a little bit more years. As I think it was about 38 or 39 when I left. So, yeah, I think I was 38. So I think it was about 18 years, something like that, 18.

And what was it that first caused you to question what you had believed?

Okay. So living in Montana, probably some of the first things that began to happen was I began to just notice that we didn't talk about Jesus very much. You know, I mean, we talked about the Lord, we talked about God, we talked about the faith, the brethren, the church, but we didn't, we didn't really refer to Jesus in a personal way.

And that's where it kind of started. And I started looking at this grace and then the whole idea that we're, you know, you go to heaven because you keep all the commandments. Well, here I was feeling like I was doing my best and no matter where that bar was set, I wasn't making it.

Now, you talk about crazy. So what do you do? Well, I lowered the bar. Guess what? I didn't make it either. And then at some point it hits you like, if I'm lowering the bar, then it's a guarantee that I am not keeping the commandments of God, you know, not the way you're supposed to.

And there's a hopelessness. So what happened was it kind of changed in my mind the way I viewed grace. I thought it isn't, we don't go to heaven because we keep all the commandments, but we could miss it by being disobedient.

It was just really saying the same thing in a softer way. And, but I remember being up there and listening to the testimonies of why this was the truth. And I started looking around at people that weren't in our church, like my mom.

Her testimony was very similar to some of the testimonies we heard in the church. Like, you know, sitting there in hopelessness and crying out to God one day, like, I want to know you. And my question would be like, what makes yours true and hers false?

Well, I'll tell you this, this church, we did believe in spiritual gifts. And most of the time it was the Lord coming and telling you something, you know. And it's kind of interesting. I was a prophecy magnet.

I mean, I probably received, I don't know, probably over a hundred. But there was one brother, he was an elder down in Colorado and it wasn't a prophecy, so to speak, but it kind of was. He told me one day, he says, Ron, you've got a problem.

And I said, what's that, Bob? He wasn't being mean, but he got, I said, what's that? And he goes, your problem is you're like me. You're a thinker. You don't take things just because people say that's the way it is.

You think about it. He says, brother, it's going to get you in a lot of trouble. That was probably the one prophecy that I got that was really accurate. So, so, you know, I just questioned things a lot.

But I'll tell you one thing that was really big was when I was still in Montana, we was probably about a year from moving back. And I would always walk up to the church. I would get it cleaned up, ready for church and everything.

And I would pray. And I don't know why, but when I would get up, I wouldn't finish praying there. I would just get up and walk home and just continue to pray. Well, I remember praying one day and I was just praying that all the brethren would be at church and that everybody would take part in the meeting.

That's the way we kind of did serving the Lord. It was just in that service. And I remember praying this. I said, Lord, I feel like I'm missing something big. I just remember saying, what if everybody came?

What if everybody took part? I thought, what then? Did we just die and go to heaven? We hit the mountaintop and I thought, Lord, I'm missing something big. And I said, it's so big, I cannot put my finger on it.

And about two years later, we moved back to Oklahoma. And wow, I saw that big thing and he had a name and his name was Jesus. And then I realized, man, we're not preaching Christ, we're preaching the church.

And so, yeah, that was a real big thing that happened and me coming out of it and everything, just things that went through my mind. If you've got another question, I'll answer it, but I can add to that a little bit.

Well, I want to go to our first commercial break. And when we come back, I definitely want to find out exactly the details of when you knew you were in a false religious system. That you knew you needed to repent of it and how you discovered the true gospel and came to embrace it.

And we will welcome your questions too, if you're listening, at chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are in an aberrant religious group or a cult and you really have come to the realization that you want to get out of it.

Perhaps it's even this very cult that we're speaking of, Church of the Firstborn. And you're not quite ready to identify yourself publicly. So we would understand that would be a good reason to remain anonymous.

But if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages.

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our Triune God.

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