Can Charismatic Gifts and Benny Hinn be Defended?

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August 3, 2023

Andrew and Drew will be challenged by someone that states that Benny Hinn is biblical. Can Benny Hinn be defended? Are Andrew and Drew up to the challenge?

00:18: This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries
00:33: Yes, we're live and Those who are watching our video. Let me just bring drew in right away drew something look different Yeah, yeah.
00:42: Um, okay. You're about to set sail on the high seas Yeah, well, you know, maybe what it is is living waters did a
00:50: Uh, I was out in huntington beach some time ago, and this is a couple years ago Uh ray and I were evangelizing and this guy dressed as a pirate jumped up and and so everybody was uh, they they
01:05: Know me as the the what was how did ray word that video the uh, bold preacher you know, uh
01:12: Something bold preacher false false teacher. I forget what it is But so maybe I was trying to look like the pirate in that video, but no, no, that's actually not it
01:20: I mean, look, we even got kofi jumping in our matey. There we go. Yeah So, yes for those on the audio podcast, uh, this is andrew rapaport
01:31: I'm, the host of apologetics live and I am wearing an eyepatch for a reason
01:37: So, uh, I figured to get this out of the way right in the beginning Um, I have double vision
01:43: Uh, it seems to be if I cover one of either of my eyes it goes away after last week's show um looking at the screen for two hours, uh being close it it gave me a splitting headache um, and so I just figured
01:58: I would look funny But at least I won't feel bad because I could not wait until the show ended
02:06: Last week so you are You are out of there pretty quick, yeah You were out of there, but I have
02:12: I have to ask you a question What's what's a pirate's favorite letter? Oh, that's such a bad, you know
02:21: That's not even worthy of answering. It's so bad, but I mean Kofi already answered.
02:28: Oh, yeah R you'd think it'd be r but it's the c No, it's r
02:38: You're wrong you just you just don't want to admit defeat I get it. All right, so All right, so, uh
02:47: Jody is saying, uh, where was it? Uh, good. Good evening. The bad jokes are already starting
02:56: Dad jokes. Yeah The really bad jokes are drew's theology of post -millennialism.
03:03: That's the really bad joke that When he gets to heaven and realizes he's wrong see jason jason is okay folks
03:13: Those in the chat. Let's go for it. If you're in the chat please give us a a
03:19: C or an r if you think that is the the right answer to that joke Room says yeah, jason called me.
03:28: He called me and left a message brother. I've just been super busy I'll listen to your message
03:33: You haven't even listened to his message. Wow, that's bad Note to self if I need to get a message to drew
03:41: Do it three weeks before okay Oh, oh look at this brother brother.
03:47: John is just he's a good politician. He says cr Yeah, he doesn't really make it in in uh doesn't want to commit
03:56: Okay, so we we have we have a pirate, uh flag uh
04:02: Facebook user says it's I You give instructions of an r or c and people just have to go outside the bounds.
04:11: Oh look Look what d says though. Well c kind of makes sense now that I think about it
04:17: Thank you kind of makes sense, but not the answer to the joke that everyone knows. So uh
04:22: Okay, strange intro. We are we're gonna get into today. We're gonna be we have uh
04:28: James park he's gonna join us Uh, we're gonna he I actually would have to go back and figure out how
04:35: He and I got connected. Um, it was on facebook somewhere and and He was uh defending benny hinn's ministry and I said, hey, would you want to come in to politics live and do that?
04:46: He said sure And so we said, okay um So that's what we're going to end up doing today um so Actually, you know,
04:58: I just see kt is is posted this and she says he's a rr actually so it's it goes quite well
05:06: So she's saying it's even my initials are fitting with the The pirate patch there and he okay
05:14: Total sidebar drew. Why do pirates? wear a patch I don't know.
05:23: I need the cricket sounds right now. Okay, there is actually a reason for this I learned this when I was in jamaica where the pirates would go to and they would hide rum and gold and different things in the caves and I discovered this is actually true because What ended up happening was
05:40: I was wearing the patch for a day And my one eye adjusted to the dark because what happens is if I try to close one eye all day it
05:48: It becomes painful By the end of day, so I had one eye Uh covered in the patch and when
05:55: I took the patch off at night in the dark One eye that was covered in the patch saw perfectly and if I closed that eye,
06:02: I couldn't see anything And so what they would do is they would take the patch and just move it to the other eye
06:08: When they went in the cave and they could see and then they moved back into the daylight and switched it back
06:13: And so they could quickly get in and out of caves So I one of the things I learned about when I was in jamaica, I know
06:18: I know a lot about pirate history But I don't I didn't I never knew that one. That's yeah yeah it
06:26: Sounds logical. Yeah, that's that's what I was told when we were going through the caves in jamaica. So Uh, we you and I decided we'd come up with a game for our audience today audience
06:37: You guys are going to get to help us out um Do some participation before james it gets james is at backstage
06:44: We're going to bring him in and I see pedro and eric backstage We're going to bring them in at the top of the hour with any questions.
06:50: I have you guys are that are backstage can Give private chat as well.
06:55: So you guys are able to communicate with us If if pedro eric you guys have questions, feel free to let us know
07:02: Uh, but I I saw this on uh, social media this morning and thought this could be really fun drew
07:09: I saw someone said how did they manage to discover aliens? But not where Uh, but not even one of epstein's clients right
07:22: Okay, I was at a gathering last weekend and Bunch of christians and someone brought up the thing of aliens
07:31: He said what do you think about aliens? This is really popular in the in the In news right about now and so people are talking about hearing on it
07:42: Yeah, and so what happened was as soon as well The one person asked me the question one of the other guys goes turns his wife to see everybody's talking about aliens
07:53: And I said why well, I think that the whole talk of aliens is I believe is nothing more than a salacious way to get something in the news other than all of the corruption
08:05: Joe biden's doing And so, I mean you can't keep indicting trump it's going to become obvious after four times that there's bad news for biden and trump gets a new indictment and The bad news for biden is coming so fast and furious
08:19: They can't keep up with it takes time to create the you know, these indictments and I think they're running out of them
08:25: So let's talk aliens So we're going to play a game. We're going to see Uh, how many other things couldn't be found other than just epstein's clients?
08:34: And an audience you're going to you're going to get to to jump in as well things that you think can't be discovered just we can't seem to find the answers to and we're going to give extra points if And and drew an audience we all have to be honest uh
08:51: We can't steal someone else's so you get extra points if someone comes up with something you didn't think of all right, so those in the in the chat are going to be able to chat away and And give their answers i'm going to give my first two and then we'll go with drew your first two
09:10: My first my first one immediately. I thought about this there How is it they're able to manage to discover aliens?
09:18: But they cannot even discover who brought the coke in the white house Is my first that's at the top of my list
09:25: Okay All right, my second one and this is one
09:30: I think would it be would it be on on your list? um Although if you saw what
09:36: I posted on social media, you might They they they're able to discover aliens, but they can't figure out who put the bomb planted the bombs on january 5th
09:48: That one was not on my bingo card that was not on your bingo card. So, okay i'll get a point for that I really forgot about that that there was a bomb there.
09:56: That's right They they had bombs on the 5th, which was really neat if you because the the bombs that were planted at the rnc and the dnc
10:04: In america, that's the two political parties Here in america, and so there were bombs on january 6th that were discovered 20 minutes before Congress, uh before the senate met on january 6th, and there was 20 minutes left on the timer
10:21: They were set to go off. You know, it was kind of interesting though If you if you actually found did any research into it the timer they had was an egg timer
10:30: You can only go for an hour and this person planted it At like three in the morning the night before and then set the egg timer
10:38: But both timers just they were discovered right at 20 minutes I mean they had they had bomb sniffing dogs
10:48: In the dnc when when kamala harris walked through but none of them picked up any bomb detection.
10:53: Okay Those are my first. What do you got? All right, my first one, okay
10:59: How can they discover aliens? But they can't seem to find any evidence into the biden crime family
11:08: Well, that's a broad one. I mean that kind of covers everything I know. Yeah All right.
11:15: Well, okay. Here's my here's my second one. All right, how can you see your third one because you you're your first one?
11:20: We had the same That's cool How can they discover aliens but they can't seem to find the clinton's
11:27: I mean epstein's killer That was on mine. That was that was my next one was they they can't they can't figure out who killed epstein
11:37: So this one was his clients right, right so Um, all right.
11:43: Let's see if we have anyone in the in the chat that's given some jody's got one All right. What's that one?
11:49: It right here it says How could they figure out? Aliens, there are aliens but can't figure out what a woman is.
11:57: Oh, that was that that was on my list. Okay But I didn't know That is it
12:05: Yeah Well, I okay I I I did okay We'll see if jody had this on her list because I did it two ways
12:13: I said they can't figure out what woman is but they also can't figure out what a man is so I I did both
12:19: Mm Okay, what's this next one that kt has is this
12:28: Uh, oh no, she's saying I got I got to see the video and guess what kamala's car went
12:35: Right by the spot at some point. Yeah. I mean the supposed bomb was right out in the open.
12:40: Yeah okay, so John is showing up late and saying is and is andrew, uh
12:47: Will be okay. No i'm gonna die one day john, I don't hopefully not soon but uh
12:55: You know and and if if the if the eric is that I think is is backstage He he was like when he found out
13:01: I had double vision. He was like Get to the emergency room Because it could be double vision could actually be quite serious, uh what they think the theory is right now that I have a fourth nerve
13:16: Palsy, which is a genetic disease. It's where the muscles I guess in my one eye is weaker and it probably has been all my life um
13:24: One eye is weaker than the other so what ends up happening is for years What would be is
13:29: I would tilt my head to the left because the double vision goes away that way And the doctor said if you go look at pictures, you'll probably see your head's always been tilted to the left.
13:37: I'm like, yeah I I have been doing that in pictures. And so that's a sign that as a as a young child, uh,
13:47: I probably compensated by just Tilting my head And at some point one of my eyes just gave out either the weak one or the stronger one.
13:55: It stopped overcompensating or just couldn't You know, so so that's that's the cause of it
14:01: They think that I just have to like my father wear these special prism glasses progressive glasses And that should solve it, but i'm still going to get a
14:10: MRI and stress test all that will be done next week. I think tuesday so And then maybe i'll get an answer.
14:17: All right Jody has another one up there That's a good one They can't find aliens
14:24: They can find the aliens, but they can't find any of the blm members to prosecute
14:32: Okay, I didn't have I I i'm gonna give her that one because I didn't have the to prosecute.
14:39: Um But I did have they can find aliens, but they can't find any of the blm money
14:47: Oh, that's true, too so so If I give joey, so let's see drew you be the judge if we give it to jody on the prosecute
14:56: Can I get the extra point for that? Yeah, because because they're two separate things right you got one that's the riots where Government property was destroyed cities were destroyed lives were lost.
15:07: But then you also have the money That people donated that was basically stolen from them
15:13: Yeah Yeah We we don't we don't know where it went I mean it somehow went to uh line the pockets of The founders and they didn't report it on taxes either
15:25: I wonder why they didn't do that Huh Anyway, uh, so that's that was my full list.
15:32: Do you have any others on your list? Oh, I that That's that's your whole list. That was my whole list.
15:38: Oh, i've i've got more. Okay, so they can find aliens but they they can't find uh figure out that The money we're giving to ukraine is just money laundering
15:50: Ah, that's a good one All right, they can they can find aliens, but they can't discover crimes in cities
15:58: Okay Walking through stores stealing stuff. Well, well, yeah red cities
16:06: Oh, oh look at d come on, I don't know if we could do this one, but Ah d
16:12: They can find aliens Huh, I thought about it, but I didn't put it.
16:17: Yeah, they they can find aliens, but they can't find biden's brain I actually the the issue there and and so that I don't
16:26: I don't I don't think it's good I think we did an episode on whether we should mock those in government that way but Um, he it's actually just a crime that I would say that it's it's elder abuse what they're doing to him.
16:40: Yeah. Oh, yeah I would agree. Yeah Jody says they can find aliens, but they can't find out how uh, how much newsom
16:50: Broke the constitution Similar to that Okay, so they can find aliens, but our government can't figure out that they're violating the constitution in the bill of rights
17:02: Oh, okay. Good good Okay. Well, oh you got one more one more They can find aliens, but they can't find out who leaked the dobbs decision
17:12: That oh, why did I forget that one? There's only a handful of people like 40 40 possible people
17:20: Yeah That's right where the where the other you know, the the coke in the white house
17:25: I think there's like I think close to maybe like somewhere between 120 to 200 people
17:32: That possibly could have because you got to remember the entrance that it was found originally remember It was found at an entrance and then they said oh it moved it suddenly moved to the library
17:41: But then they realized the library had even fewer people that were in there So they suddenly moved downstairs to where all the workers are
17:49: You know, but where it was originally supposedly found. Um, they uh, they had um
17:57: You know, it's where you have to have secret service detail to get it. I thought it was the west wing It was found in the west wing.
18:03: Yeah So you figure how many people were there on the weekends? Okay, so, um
18:10: Jason says they they can find aliens But they can't find the inerrant truth of god's word that helped found this country
18:19: So I had a couple others I thought of putting on the list Um, they can find aliens I didn't put this on the list.
18:26: So these don't count but they can find aliens, but andy stanley can't find the old testament
18:37: Um I had a and then once I started thinking that way I was like we would be here all night doing this because You can't find what bill biden's a doctor of Yeah All right.
18:48: So let's let's see if if jay so i'm gonna let's bring james park in um
18:54: James is so james. It is really dark in your car. So james is in his car folks
19:00: Because he has a newborn at home And therefore any of us who have had newborns we know what that's like You never know.
19:08: It's really going to be hard to do a podcast With a baby that's could be screaming Yeah, that's the best place
19:15: I have No, I mean Just so you know you I don't want you to feel bad. But when covet first started
19:23: And I I ended up uh doing a recording on a podcast with ray comfort
19:29: He was doing all of his podcasting from his car Because he realized he he that was where he in his house for in like go he went through marks mark spence
19:40: Yeah, yeah, it got the boys in that car. Yeah, they would get the best acoustics in the car
19:47: Yes I told ray I wanted him in his chicken coop And I am a living waters biggest fan by the way, because I always get the million dollar bills
19:57: Boxes, this is so easy to evangelize. You just throw money on the ground Everyone picks it up.
20:04: It's not littering. Well, you shouldn't litter but They pick it up Yeah, well the the um
20:11: I had gotten When I was out there, I don't know. I don't know how many packs of million dollar bill tracks that come in the hundreds and if folks if you want if you want you can go to livingwaters .com
20:23: and see you know under the tracks and see what we're Talking about but uh, I stacked them in this box
20:28: Which I was like tsa is definitely opening this box yeah,
20:33: I just had What would have equivalated to you know? Like I forget how much
20:39: I figured I tried to figure out if there were hundred dollar bills how much I had I think I I had like a would it would have been a million dollars worth or something
20:46: But I just I had a bunch in there and they were probably like someone's trying to transport money
20:52: Smuggle money. Yeah. Yeah So that's pick them up because it looks like real money
20:57: Yeah, so so james, I don't I don't even remember the conversation we had what started this
21:03: I don't know if you do well I started out, you know when I was first born again, just Our discussion our discussion what started the discussion that we had
21:16: Yeah, I mean basically I believe everything That benny him believes I agree with him on most of the stuff.
21:23: Yeah Okay, what I was trying to get to is I I don't are just you and me our discussion on social media
21:29: I didn't remember how that started. I just yeah. Well, I'm a I have a friend who's a friend of yours on my friends list uh, okay, he invited me to debate with you
21:41: Yeah, it was it was based off some comment on on a post I just didn't remember which one sorry so for folks who who
21:49: Don't don't know who you are Why don't you you know give a little bit about your background you already said you believe you agree with everything?
21:57: um That almost everything almost everything. I mean I grew up I became a christian about eight years ago
22:04: And i'm just gonna i'm gonna take the banner off so people can some people were asking for your name. It's james park
22:10: Yes So there folks you have that You know, I grew up where like, you know, benny him kenneth copeland.
22:17: They were the prosperity gospel. They just wanted your money That's how I grew up but I You know,
22:23: I got the gifts of the spirit and I always had him when
22:29: I was uh From when I was first born again and uh, by the way ray comfort sometimes he does
22:37: Deliver his prayers every now and then if you watch his videos Just a side note Every now and then he doesn't
22:44: He doesn't Yeah, I I know ray personally and I can tell you he does not believe in that he prayed against a woman's demons one time
22:56: Very rare, of course but and he believes That some people are possessed by demons like the wizard from new zealand.
23:05: Yeah, I believe people are possessed by demons I have a friend of mine who believes that uh you know
23:12: Kenneth copeland is possessed by a demon and I kind of believe that Well as I um just got to know like kenneth copeland and uh
23:23: The benny hin got got to know them more I realized I believe the exact same things as they do them personally or no.
23:32: No, just knowing i'm from like social media I Realize I believe the exact same things they do and i'm gonna defend them from now on.
23:41: I don't care who says it. Okay So so tell us a little bit about yourself first How how you know, uh, you started to explain how you came to know christ so start start there and yes, so, um
23:59: Concisely if that is I got out I got out of the marines And I was I was desperate for work
24:05: Ended up getting a job on a farm The farmer was a outspoken christian.
24:11: He'd always played Gospel music he'd take me to church go feed the homeless. He was always preaching bible truth
24:19: And I even though I always thought I was a christian Just being in his presence made me realize that I was not a christian and um, so just like Admitting that i'm not a christian in my heart
24:33: And then that's when I actually became born again and god changed my life Yeah, I believe there's a baptism of repentance
24:42: And also baptism of the holy spirit All spiritual. I don't believe you have to have water baptism or anything like that And um
24:54: Yes, i've just been i've been evangelizing Ever since i've been uh always
25:01: The gifts of the holy spirit like deliverance and all of that I always had them but I was with cessationists for my like first five years until I moved to miami and then um so once I got away from those church those churches
25:22: I uh began to practice the gifts more So that's where i'm at right now
25:28: Okay, so I want to I want to go back to sound just to make sure I heard right you said
25:34: You started to believe in these because you experienced the gifts. Is that is that right?
25:43: Uh, yeah But I have a lot of bible verses to back it up though okay, but but What it what's so that was yeah, that was my experience.
25:55: That's your experience So then you're trusting your your your trust is your experience is it not
26:03: No, I um if I If there was no verses in the bible backing me up I would just say i'm schizophrenic and I need to just forget about that and just put the bible first So which which gifts is it that you say you experienced?
26:22: Um, so like healing Um casting out demons
26:28: Okay Speaking in tongues. I never did speak in tongues to Move to miami
26:36: Not that you speak. I believe there's two different types of tongues There's that tongues and pentecostals actual languages earthly languages and then the heavenly language
26:46: Do you know any passage in the bible that talks about a heavenly language? Yeah, yeah,
26:52: I got a few um So you have uh first corinthians 14 14 an unknown tongue
27:03: Okay, that that's not heavenly that's unknown that means And it's uh
27:09: It's a it's a tongue that you're that you don't know that you end up speaking and I know and it's not that verse
27:15: Because I don't think uh, first corinthians 14 14 says if I pray in a tongue My spirit prays
27:22: But my mind is unfruitful so We'd have to see what what translation are you using?
27:30: Uh, I think that one i'm not sure actually I wonder if that's a translation issue.
27:37: Yeah, there's also a romans 8 26 the uh Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered
27:49: So to me that's what it's like. It's like a groaning. Hold on So if it's if it's a groaning that can't be uttered you you wouldn't be able to utter them, correct?
28:00: well cannot be Interpreted by a human the human mind only by the spirit
28:08: But that's not what that passage says, right? That was what romans what 8 8 20? 8 26.
28:15: Yeah Um in the same way the spirit also helps our weakness
28:21: For we do not know how to pray as we should but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words that doesn't seem to indicate the same thing that Again maybe a translation issue
28:40: Um, but it's it this is saying a groaning too deep for words Now I can flip through some other translations that was new american standard but There's also uh acts 2 4 it says
28:55: He began to speak with other tongues As the spirit gave them utterance so the spirit gave them this tongue
29:03: And but but further down in the context, we know exactly which tongues they were verse 8 starts saying
29:08: And how is it that each of them? Hear them in their own language to which we were born parthians and medes and uh laminites
29:19: Yeah, those are the the earthly tongues. Yes, you're I agree. I agree There's no other mention.
29:24: There's no mention of anything other than the earthly tongues, but that's another gift too Sometimes I hear that this never happened to me personally, but I heard of people
29:34: Never spoke spanish. They began speaking spanish because uh, a spanish
29:39: Unbeliever was curious about the gospel and then boom We hear about those they're just never documented
29:47: So so late, you know, um Oh, and I just drew has just drew a blank on his name.
29:52: I think it's john Harnam, I think is the name shoot, I forget but uh late 18, uh late 1800s
30:01: He was the the first with uh, when to popularize the gift of tongues
30:07: And he had a follower Several followers who believe they had the gift of languages And charles parham charles that's it charles parham um and so Uh, and he had one of his his students who
30:25: Hmm agnes osmond. Yep. Agnes. Osmond had supposedly the gift of speaking chinese and so She got on a boat went over to china so that she could do missions work
30:37: Uh got there realized nobody knew what she was saying She was writing things because she said she had the gift of writing chinese, but nobody
30:46: Could read anything she did in fact, uh, she has a a handwritten copy of what she had
30:55: What she said was chinese And people were buying her story but I actually
31:02: Received that handwritten Uh a picture of that handwriting We gave it to my bride who actually was born
31:10: Writing and speaking chinese And she took one look at that and said that's chicken scratch
31:17: So, yeah, she came back and said she is was actually speaking an angelic language
31:23: So it's it's kind of interesting that once she changed her story. Yeah, correct So so yeah
31:30: I agree. That's a false prophet. I agree. So so so far you haven't given a single passage that actually argues for a
31:40: Non -human language you have You've written more two more verses really quick okay, okay, so first corinthians 14 2 2 verses before that For he who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men but to god for no one understands him.
31:57: However in the spirit He speaks mysteries now also remember daniel
32:04: Was the only one who could interpret the writing on the wall Okay So was was daniel interpreting a human language
32:16: I don't think so. I think I mean, I don't know because I think it was uh, angelic language.
32:21: Yeah If you think about daniel and all of daniel's interpretation daniel interpreted dreams too
32:28: It didn't mean that they couldn't under you know Nebuchadnezzar couldn't understand what was going on in his dream, but he needed it interpreted for him, right?
32:37: And so it's not that someone can't see what's on the wall and and read what's on the wall
32:43: It's that they just can't understand what it means So so those two aren't aren't exactly linked.
32:48: Okay, so let's let's go back to first corinthians 14 2 Because we didn't address that one.
32:54: So let's look at the context. Is that a fair thing to do james? Yes. Yes, please verse one pursue love
33:02: Yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy
33:07: For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to god for no one understands but it but in his spirit he speaks mysteries, but one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and Consolidation So so let me ask a question is paul saying we shouldn't speak to god
33:35: We should speak to men and not god No Well, if we're going to take this literally the way you did then that's what that's saying
33:47: Well, so I believe that paul he was saying that we
33:55: We We speak we're speaking we should not speak in tongues to Uh men but to god he's meaning the spiritual warfare okay, so let's you're
34:10: So what you're doing james is you're reading things in i'm all i'm doing is reading Right and looking at context.
34:17: So let me ask the question this way Is he is he trying to contrast? Two things prophecy and languages
34:30: Possibly yeah Yeah, because he's saying he's he's saying pursue love the the real thing is he's saying love is the more important than all of them right
34:38: Yes, he's saying pursue love which comes out of chapter 13 just before Actually starts in verse chapter 12
34:46: It's 12 13 14 and once and i'll say this for folks who are listening if you go to striving fraternity .org
34:52: Uh on our site. I do have a paper called. Um I think it's called understanding biblical tongues
35:00: Uh, but if you search for first corinthians 12 to 14, uh, it basically looks at those three chapters 12 13 14 in context
35:08: And just gives a high level overview Um, and I would argue that much of what paul
35:14: Is condemning in those three chapters is the charismatic movement we see today because it's nothing nothing new under the sun the same things that we saw in Late 1800s
35:25: You had a bunch of people feeling they're more spiritual. They're saying they speak a language because someone else is speaking a language
35:31: So you have this spiritual pride and then all of a sudden someone's being just speaking gibberish
35:37: Well, can I give my take on it? Sure so I believe he is saying don't speak tongues as a sermon or in the church and but It's for spiritual warfare.
35:53: So meaning that Like when you're speaking mysteries to god only you and god
35:59: Can know And the angels and then that the devil won't even know I hit him. Where where do you see spiritual warfare sermons in here?
36:09: Well, it's not not for sermons at all, but it's for spiritual warfare Where do you see that in here at all?
36:17: When he says it's not not to speak to men, but to god so when we pray to god
36:23: Most people when they are a lot of people when they pray to god they're they're asking to For to battle spiritual warfare, okay, so you're saying
36:33: I want to make sure I understand this you're saying that the speaking To god is the spiritual warfare
36:42: Sometimes yeah, so we're I can't say all the time but sometimes yes, so we're at war with god
36:48: Like when we're praying that's that's at war with god No Asking the holy spirit to do battle for us
36:58: Okay. So now there's nowhere in here that says that this is about Asking the holy spirit to do battle for us, correct?
37:06: No, okay, not the specific verse. No, okay, so You're you're you're but that's your interpretation of that.
37:14: Could that be influenced by your experience? Well, I do have the experience
37:20: I When even when other people when i'm doing deliverance other people's speaking tongues
37:26: I can interpret that tongue in the spirit And then it it's a specific message for their life completely specific to them
37:35: There's no way I would have known the things That are said and so If part of it is experience
37:42: I put the bible first Then experience then history as well all together
37:50: I Recognize all three of those Okay, james. Um, I I heard you say a minute ago when you speak in tongues and you're you're speaking to god
38:01: You're speaking to god and the angels and the devil doesn't understand what you're saying um
38:06: Is that kind of your take on that that when you speak in? Yes Devil can't understand you only god and the angels because it's a yes angelic language.
38:15: Is that is that what i'm to understand? well The language changes on god's side The language changes so the the demons they try to learn it, but they never learn it
38:26: Are those demons and the devil are they? What are they angels They're fallen angels.
38:32: Yes. Okay, so they they speak angel but after They were cast out of heaven
38:39: They they no longer have gods. Well, that's just We to learn the language. Where do you get that information from that information?
38:47: You have to have god's spirit to know the language. They have their own tongues Yes, demonic demonic tongue.
38:54: That's different. Yeah So so james i'm i'm hearing what you're saying, but the problem is none of that is found in scripture at all
39:02: But I I have I do have another question for you It says the holy spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues acts 19 no, the question is the question he's asking is you said that angels
39:16: That fell no longer speak angelic language Do you have a bible verse for that or is that something that you're trying to You're building a doctrine to save your your belief system well, they
39:33: They still speak their Demonic tongues information is what drew's asking.
39:38: Where do you get that information from? Well, I don't have any bible verses for that so you got me on that one
39:46: I do have another question for you james So because we've been spending a lot of time in first corinthians and then we've only mentioned acts a little bit
39:56: Um, do you know that first corinthians was written before the book of acts? No I was not aware.
40:04: I'm gonna have a chronological order Intercede and say drew
40:09: I like I I never thought about that. That's an excellent point which explains why
40:15: Paul had to do so much explaining By the to the corinthians because this has not been written about yet That's an excellent point so so in james what i'm getting at what andrew's picking up on is the book of act or the book of First corinthians it speaks about tongues, right?
40:36: But then once the book of acts come comes along and it talks about the holy spirit falling on people and they spoke in other tongues
40:45: Luke in acts is clarifying at the beginning of acts what those tongues are that they are known languages
40:52: So if they were anything other than that, he would have said what they are that they were angelic languages or they were they were some other kind of Gibberish that that we can't understand but luke specifically says
41:06: In acts 2 that they are known languages Yeah, I agree that pentecost was that it was known languages it says it straight out
41:17: I agree with that But I also I think this is a separate different gift a different gift, but here's the thing right
41:26: I I believe you could tell me if i'm wrong you you want to follow the truth.
41:32: Would that be fair to say james? Yes Yes, definitely What becomes the ultimate authority for truth?
41:40: The word of god, okay, so If we see something in the word of god
41:47: Then that becomes the authority even over our experience, correct? Yes, okay good.
41:54: I'm glad you agree with that because I if I want to go back to the first corinthians 14 because You're this passage to it to if we stay consistent with the way you're interpreting verse 2
42:08: The rest of the passage then is indicating that god does not want us talking to him
42:16: Now is that does that fit with the rest of scripture that god would want us to talk to men and not god
42:26: Oh, so you mean, uh When paul was saying that It's not for men, but to god if if we're taking it the way you're taking it
42:34: I'm just reading it but you read into this that this is spiritual warfare
42:40: And so if we're going to say that this is spiritual warfare, then when he says When he's saying he's talking about love
42:48: Pursue love that's that's there's two commands here in verse one pursue love.
42:53: That's an imperative that's command and then desire earnestly and the the
42:59: Um definitive article to the to desire earnestly is spiritual Now the word gifts actually isn't there in the greek so so there's two commands pursue love desire earnestly spiritual
43:14: And he says but especially that you may prophesy The verse that you bring up for for one who speaks in a tongue
43:23: Does not speak to men but to god For no one speaks For no one understands but in his spirit
43:31: He speaks mysteries But one who prophesies listens to men for edification and exhortation
43:37: Okay, but then look it says One who speaks in a tongue edifies who himself himself?
43:44: Yeah, so do you know any passage of the bible that that it says that we should edify self?
43:50: But that's a good thing Well paul he says later
43:56: I wish everyone he spoke in tongues, but I'd rather you prophesy you're avoiding the question.
44:01: So i'll ask you Is there any passage in the bible that outside of this one
44:08: Where we see self edification as a good thing Well, I think paul says in 14 5 1st.
44:17: Corinthians 14 5 I would like you to edify yourself Speak in tongues, but I would rather you prophesy to edify the church
44:27: Okay, so the church is is more important than self, but we're still important But the church is more important.
44:33: Okay Is there any uh, there's a third time i'm asking it. So is there any passage outside of this?
44:41: Where self edification is praised? Yeah, I mean you got love your neighbor as yourself so that assumes that assumes you love self
44:51: It's not saying you shouldn't yourself it is it's assuming that I don't think edifying yourself is necessarily selfish
44:59: And and yet it's condemned over and over again in scripture, that's a good Just good point, but I don't think he means
45:08: By edifying Himself, I don't think he means by being selfish I didn't say the word selfish.
45:15: I said self edification That's what yeah I think Sometimes we need when you're doing spiritual warfare
45:24: You need the energy and the strength to continue to pray and then Okay, you guys put your experience aside
45:32: Sometimes you need self edification No, there's none that I can think of okay
45:40: Is the bible pretty clear that self -education self -edification is wrong? That that like pride would be wrong
45:50: I think pride is definitely wrong. Yes, okay Is self -edification pride?
45:57: I don't think so You don't think so lifting you got it yourself up You got to take care of yourself to take care of others.
46:05: That's that's not that's not edifying self taking care of Self is not edifying self
46:12: The reason i'm laboring this is because what we see in the text if I just read the text Is clear that paul is saying something that is contrary to the rest of scripture
46:24: And so therefore it's not to be taken as instruction as literal instruction, but as condemnation to wrong behavior
46:32: What they were doing was edifying themselves claiming. They spoke a language that only god could speak that fits perfectly with everything he's saying because He's not going to tell people not to pray that's not biblical
46:46: He's not going to tell people to edify themselves because that's not biblical So if it's not biblical either the there's other passages of scripture.
46:54: There's a contradiction in scripture or The other option that we see here is that paul's condemning certain behavior that they were doing the very same behavior
47:05: We saw with charles farms, you know followers That we see today the same exact behavior
47:14: He's it's people saying look look at me. I'm I I'm speaking to god and only god can understand and yet If you're going to take that that way you have to take all of this that way therefore paul's condemning
47:26: Speaking to god. He says it's better to speak to men. That's that's Nowhere seen in scripture that you should edify yourself
47:34: That's nowhere seen in scripture And when you're speaking in tongues is For yourself like when you're praying for yourself, like please help me lord get through the day
47:43: You are helping yourself. That's that's speaking in a language. You understand well some sometimes in scripture
47:52: There are verses about edification like to edify your neighbor I have no problem with that.
47:59: That's not edifying self. That's edifying others putting others before yourself It's good to be edified, you know, you're not making them
48:09: It's you're edifying people is So you want to do anything to others that you would do yourself?
48:15: I don't know. It's confusing. Yeah Well, yeah, you make a great point though. I'll admit you make a great point
48:22: Yeah, I mean I I do I think I'll tell you why james. I think it might be confusing for you
48:27: Because I think scripture says one thing in your experience is saying a different right and and that's what's causing confusion
48:36: I don't think edification is bad That's what we disagree But i'm saying but what about self -edification?
48:43: I don't think self -education edification is bad. Okay, that's Where we differ self -edification would be the definition of pride
48:53: And you said that's bad I don't think so. Like uh today I heard somebody saying because someone uh
49:01: Told their boss the gospel And this is a calvinist. Okay, he told his his boss the gospel and he said
49:10: He even said to the point you're going to hell Okay, like ray comfort style. Okay and in a nice way, but he's
49:18: And then somebody said that you're To him you're being prideful. I said no this is this is actually humility humility is
49:28: Saying that god's right and we're wrong okay, but So so this we define pride differently,
49:35: I think we define that differently. Okay. Do you believe that pride is building up of self?
49:41: I I think pride is doing what you want to do Like sins only sinful stuff not just If you want to do what god wants to do that's not prideful well, okay
49:57: You're giving it a by example the the definition of pride Would be to build self to build up self to put your agenda before anything else
50:09: That's that's yes Edify is the word to build up.
50:15: So this is to build up self That's the definition of pride
50:24: Yes, but praying in tongues is you're building up your god is building you up yeah, but but Again it the whole the reason i'm belaboring this james is so you can see
50:38: What paul is saying in this passage where you're trying to say that this is speaking of spiritual warfare, which isn't mentioned um
50:47: And speaking of spiritual warfare versus sermons neither of which are mentioned paul is using saying things
50:54: That cannot be taken the way you're taking them literally Because those very things are against everything else the bible teaches
51:03: The bible teaches us that pride or building up of self is condemned not not praised
51:12: So if paul is praising Self -edification pride
51:19: Then that can't be what he's actually saying Because that's against everything else of scripture
51:26: He he couldn't he wouldn't be saying that we we shouldn't pray to god but pray to men It's better to to pray to men than to pray to god.
51:34: I got news for you It is much better for us throughout scripture. We see this it's much better to talk to god than it is to men
51:42: Spending time in prayer Is is a is a better thing than us talking to one another
51:49: And and if we take your interpretation that flips this upside down So it's it's more likely
51:57: That paul is condemning behavior And he's pointing out to them by your behavior.
52:04: You're edifying yourself Okay. Well, yeah, I think that meant
52:10: It's better to speak english to men or whatever, you know hebrew and greek
52:17: Language. No. Yeah speaking tongues of god only. Yeah Well, he says
52:23: I wish in verse five now, I wish that you all spoke in languages But even more so that you would prophesy and greater is the one who prophesies than the one who speaks in languages
52:33: Unless there's an uh, he interprets so the church may receive edifying now
52:41: You're saying that this is that this gift of languages is for self and paul says it's for the church
52:48: And it must be interpreted Oh now when you when you pray in languages
52:55: Do you have an interpreter there? Yes, I can interpret the angelic
53:01: You you're your own interpreter It sounds like gibberish it's
53:07: I can interpret that you can interpret but you are your own interpreter well for the tongues because because paul says that the the proper way to do this is to have
53:21: Two people speak that same thing and have an interpreter Yeah, I mean
53:27: I do it i'll do it in front of the whole entire church And you have another person that can say the same thing
53:35: Yes, and then yeah sometimes When we have another interpreter, they'll they'll say the same thing or they'll say you have
53:44: The the bible has two people speaking that same language And then the third person is the interpreter not two interpreters
53:53: Two people that have to have the ability to speak to say the same thing That's what paul says
53:58: When he gives the instruction to the church, so when you're when you're alone and you're you're praying and in languages who does the interpreting?
54:09: Okay, so yeah when i'm alone no one Okay, so so you you're not fitting with it the the
54:17: Just Just me i'm yeah, I am self -interpreting at that moment in time.
54:23: Yes. How does that how does that edify the church? It does it's completely
54:29: Self -edification as you say. Yeah All right, which which bible would condemn? So let me let me go to the only passage and i'm amazed that you didn't bring this one up because it's the only passage
54:40: The only passage in all the bible that mentions an angelic language And it's first corinthians 13 1
54:47: I missed it Yep Wow, this is the only passage that talks about an angelic language and And what
54:55: I said, I what I believe happened is in corinth now keep in mind As you read through the book of first corinthians
55:03: Every single chapter. I mean every one of them Paul is condemning them for for bad behavior
55:09: Yeah, and somehow chapters 12 13 and 14, he's just ending everything they're doing
55:16: Well, that's not likely. It's more likely that he's continuing in his condemnation of their behavior
55:22: And I think the behavior they were doing is very much what we see the behavior today When I was involved in the charismatic movement
55:28: What I discovered is that everybody had this pride of will you speak in languages? I got a word from the lord
55:34: Oh, you got a word from lord. I got a prophecy Everyone's trying to outdo each other in showing that they're more spiritual and That what you end up seeing is someone who claimed he spoke spanish
55:46: And then someone who was a spanish speaker said that's not spanish and he switched to it He while he was speaking an angelic language
55:54: And the spanish speaker just didn't know it And that's what I think paul is condemning. Let me make that case from what paul
56:00: Hey, andrew, I got I got to throw this comment up here from d. She says i'm dying here first corinthians 14
56:08: She she has been throwing it in the comments. Okay, so first first corinthians, uh, 14 22 says
56:16: Tongues are for a sign Not to those who believe but to the unbelievers, but prophecy is a sign uh to the unbeliever
56:27: Uh, not to the unbeliever, but to those who believe so basically the the gift of tongues
56:33: Was the purpose and we see this in acts chapter 2 Was for the unbelievers to realize that here's people that don't know my language and they're speaking my language and you can
56:44: Yeah, and so the the verse d's throwing out here 14 First corinthians 14 22 if you just back up to 14 21
56:53: It tells you that this is a uh an actual language because it's quoting isaiah 28 11 and if you go look at that, it's it's god saying that he would send people who speak foreign tongues and so when you hear in Foreign tongues, it's always someone from a different region that speaks a different language
57:16: Well, let me just say first, um So the reason on the corinthians behavior, okay, it's not always due to lukewarmness
57:25: Sometimes the closer we get to god the more the devil attacks And as for for being for unbelievers
57:33: I agree with that. Sometimes we do get uh people who are They're trying to become christians, but they're not really christians yet and uh, we interpret a tongue for them and then
57:46: It's like a message for them of repentance and they need to stay closer to god that's a lot of the messages are they need to repent and Become believers so If I could just speak real quickly to the behavior of the corinthians
58:01: Um, it's it's not in the case of the corinthians It's not that the closer they were getting to god the more the devil was attacking
58:07: Because if you look through the book of corinthians, just read it Paul is condemning them
58:15: He's condemning sin even to the point where you get to chapter 15 and he's saying look i've already given you the gospel
58:21: But you need to be reminded again Because it's not that the devil's attacking. It's that they've rejected it.
58:27: I will say this about It's a negative thing about the charismatic movement when you embark on deliverance you will
58:36: Have more temptations. You'll be attacked more by the devil, but the way to Counter that is by more prayer.
58:44: You need to do your early morning prayer first thing in the morning Or if you're going to do deliverance, then you have to pray at least, you know
58:52: You have to pray for a long time first thing in the morning Well, yeah, but when you're praying in a gibberish then you're wasting time because you don't it's you don't understand anything you're saying
59:04: And that's exactly what paul's going to make I do So so here's god and god understands it most importantly
59:11: Do I is it necessary for me to speak to god in another language?
59:17: Let me say this even if tongues was fake God still knows what we're thinking So god does understand.
59:24: Yeah, so we don't need to pray at all. Um No, what's the purpose of prayer? I mean because do you think it's a god can we can inform god of something?
59:36: No, no because he knows everything the purpose of prayer is so that we would be dependent upon him
59:42: Yes, and so if we don't know what's going on depend on him everything So if we don't know what's going on, then we're not depending on him.
59:48: Yeah, here's a great comment andrew Um bible care and share fellowship. I have read church history and the greatest soul winners did not speak in tongues now we have a lot of Uh people commenting in the comments that do study church history and I know andrew has studied it and i've studied it myself
01:00:07: When we look through church history james What we see is we see very very few groups of people that claim to speak in tongues
01:00:17: But those people that do claim that they are actual heretics because of what they teach about christ
01:00:24: They teach falsely about christ. We see this with john calvin Uh battling against the libertines.
01:00:30: We see this with charles spurgeon and dealing with the I think it was the shakers and the quakers all throughout church history
01:00:37: We also see it with benny hinn who taught that the trinity was nine people. That's true
01:00:42: So so we see this we've seen this throughout church history the very very few people that claimed to speak in tongues
01:00:51: They were all heretics because they taught falsely about christ now
01:00:58: I think When benny hinn was talking about the nine trinity or whatever he was talking about all he was trying to say is that They're all separate and they all have their own bite
01:01:10: They're the father son the holy spirit all have their own mind body and soul which
01:01:16: I don't know if that's true or not, but he Well, no Because scripture says
01:01:25: That the father is a spirit not a body and mind body and soul
01:01:32: Is is not a way of we are material and immaterial Everywhere where you see body or flesh
01:01:40: It refers to the physical everywhere where you see spirit It refers to immaterial and the soul can refer to either one.
01:01:47: So it refers to the whole being the whole person so But he he ended up by the way
01:01:54: When he when he taught that heresy Uh, and and got exposed for it.
01:02:00: He then tried saying it was a joke and then had to apologize for that. So um
01:02:06: But here's what scripture says in first corinthians 13 If I speak with the tongues with the languages of men and of angels
01:02:16: But do not have love i've become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal now This is the only passage that talks about a angelic language
01:02:28: And he is not teaching That there are angelic languages. He's actually teaching the opposite You know why
01:02:36: I say that Because I read the next verse So the first what we see in verse one is he's making a comparison between the the speaking of languages
01:02:47: And love and he's saying love is greater. If you don't have love then you're just making noise speaking gibberish
01:02:55: Yes, but look at verse two If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries
01:03:02: And all knowledge and even if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love i'm nothing
01:03:10: James, if you knew all mysteries and had all knowledge, what would we call you?
01:03:17: That would be like god that would be god now is paul saying that you can be god no
01:03:26: But he is that then exaggeration is he exaggerating Uh, well
01:03:37: No, I don't think anyone can know all mysteries So he so wouldn't that be an exaggeration if if I know prophecy even more than prophecy
01:03:45: I know all knowledge I mean he goes to the extreme if I can know all the prophecy
01:03:52: I know all the mysteries. I have all knowledge so much so I can remove mountains But I don't have love doesn't that sound like he's being
01:04:00: You know, he's he's exaggerating to make a point That love is more important way more important than the more important correct
01:04:08: And he's trying to take the prophecy and take it to the extreme Not just that you know that you could you could speak a prophecy
01:04:17: But that you know all mysteries and all knowledge and and have all faith Right.
01:04:23: He's he's exaggerating to make that point that even if you could go to the uttermost extreme But you don't have love you're nothing
01:04:31: Would that be a fair interpretation of that? Yes, okay That's the same thing.
01:04:36: He's doing in verse one If I can speak of the languages of men even of angels
01:04:42: There's the same exaggeration right there He's not saying angelic language any more than he's saying that you could be that you can have all knowledge
01:04:51: He's exaggerating to emphasize if he can go far beyond knowing every human language
01:04:57: Even if you could speak the language of angels, he's not saying there is one He's just saying that if you could
01:05:04: But you don't have love You see? Yeah. No, I I think that I did understand that.
01:05:12: Um The exaggeration and everything. I think that's why I left the verse out specifically in my list, but um
01:05:20: Well, see you're you're I agree with that. I agree with that So throughout throughout this right your list didn't have any passage that talked about it being an angelic language
01:05:31: But doesn't it have to be an angelic language because it's the only way For the experience to fit right because you're not speaking a known human language.
01:05:42: Are you? No, okay, and and I don't i've never met anybody who does
01:05:47: I mean, there's lots of stories about people who do But they've never been verified
01:05:53: I've never seen it verified Oh, let me correct that one person there was there was a video that I saw of a person
01:06:02: Who was speaking french? And they said they never knew french
01:06:09: They did know a dialect of french, however well, so i'm
01:06:15: So they they they spoke. Uh, I think it was creole um
01:06:20: And so they were from louisiana is what you're saying Uh show no partiality to man
01:06:28: Well, if one man can do it any man can do it yeah, well the thing is is that your your your defense of benny hin
01:06:37: Right was because you experienced the these These gifts and therefore, you know, they're true
01:06:45: And you're going to defend benny hin And yet when we look at scripture And i'm not i'm not saying this to be like to be hard on you james
01:06:54: You know, i'm actually saying this to help you when we went to scripture. Okay, you couldn't you couldn't ground the argument that benny hin makes
01:07:05: In scripture you you you may not realize you did it, but you you kept going back to your experience
01:07:13: You're reading things into the scripture that the scripture doesn't say And to make it match your experience so There's two ways
01:07:24: That you can interpret scripture You can either follow the rules of interpretation Or you can let your your personal experience interpret it and and I think you're doing the latter
01:07:35: Because you're you're looking at these passages and going well, this is speaking of spiritual warfare, but it doesn't mention spiritual warfare anything about spiritual warfare
01:07:44: Then you're taking it and you're saying well this is You're you're looking at them and saying well, this is what this is
01:07:49: But that's not what it's saying right each time. We looked at every one of the passages and just reading context
01:07:57: Each one of them is not saying what you claimed it said Right.
01:08:02: Well, I mean paul he talks about spiritual warfare a lot in james and peter
01:08:08: But not in the passages that you brought up, right? So that'd be like me saying you know You gave money to friends therefore you should give me money
01:08:17: I mean just because you gave other people money that you know doesn't mean you need to give me money not at all
01:08:23: I think but so just because paul mentions spiritual warfare elsewhere doesn't mean everywhere.
01:08:28: He's speaking only of spiritual warfare I think deliverance and prophecy and all the gifts.
01:08:36: They're all huge part of jesus ministry want why
01:08:44: They're so that unsaved people would become saved one of the reasons but why
01:08:51: So that they they may believe Okay, I I would disagree Okay, and the reason i'm going to disagree
01:08:59: Is because and folks i'll give you the a link to go check you can go to strivingforeturning .org
01:09:07: slash miracles Striving for eternity .org slash miracles And and james,
01:09:13: I want to give you some of the the information of the research i've done on miracles Because we only see three times in history where there seems to be a lot of miracle activity.
01:09:24: Do you know what those three are? Are you talking about the the old testament prophets and Jesus time and that book acts
01:09:36: Well, we we see in the time of moses the time of elisha and elisha in the time of jesus
01:09:43: Right, right So there's 265 miracles in the bible
01:09:49: Okay Okay, 104 of them are done by jesus So it's 39 of all the miracles in the bible are done by jesus for a very simple reason
01:09:58: Jesus is putting his deity on display Okay, yes, yes true so He does he does more than any other human
01:10:07: Um more than anyone actually even of the of the father however When we look at them by humans, right now
01:10:16: Now why those three periods of time that we see by humans when mirror where miracles are done by human beings
01:10:23: Okay, when we we're going to limit it Not just you know, like God or or whatnot
01:10:30: Just human beings Okay, you're you have 80 miracles 80 some miracles out of those 265
01:10:39: So that's what we're dealing with 80 80 some miracles All right now
01:10:47: Um I'm trying i'm actually just trying to look so I can give you the actual number um, because i'm sure
01:10:54: I have it in the paper, but so Here's the thing When we we look at the miracles
01:11:03: Okay, they're here. I found it 81. So I wasn't too far off 81 miracles are performed by human beings in the entire bible
01:11:10: That's 31 of all the miracles and then john said jesus did even more miracles, but not enough to hold them, correct
01:11:19: So here's the thing. What is unique about the time of moses? elijah And jesus, do you know?
01:11:27: Was um the People being freed from uh, egypt coming out of egypt and uh, elijah
01:11:38: Was just Wanting the the like jezebel and ahab to stop stealing the prophets.
01:11:46: Let me help you with it Go ahead time of moses. Did we have any written scripture? uh, no, so Moses is writing scripture saying thus says the lord
01:11:58: Right He's claiming to speak for god and writing down god's
01:12:06: How do you know that that's god's word because it's validated by miracles So moses does miracles then you have
01:12:16: Joshua writing and and elsewhere where you have people writing Afterwards, but what did you see historically?
01:12:23: After about 30 40 years the miracles fade away Scripture is being written
01:12:29: And then there's a period of silence After a couple hundred years of silence
01:12:35: All of a sudden elisha and elijah come on the scene Claiming to be prophets speaking for god
01:12:41: And all of a sudden they're doing miraculous miracle this miraculous things these miraculous gifts and All of a sudden within 30 40 years that fades away
01:12:53: But what can what happened the new writing of scripture and then you have all the prophets Then you have 400 years of silence
01:13:01: And jesus comes on the scene. What do you see? Lots of miracles done by not only him but also the disciples and then after 30 40 years those miracles
01:13:11: Fade away the gift of miracles fade away And what happens you have the writing of scripture all three times are with the writing of scripture that's exactly what hebrews 2 says
01:13:21: Where it says this and starting in verse 1 for this reason We must pay Much closer attention to what we have heard
01:13:30: So that we do not drift away from it for the word spoken through the angels proved
01:13:38: Unauthorable and every transgression and disobedient received just a just penalty
01:13:44: How will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? after it
01:13:51: Was at the first spoken through the lord It was confirmed
01:13:57: To us by those who heard God also testifying with them
01:14:05: Both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and gifts of the holy spirit
01:14:12: According to his own will so very clearly he's saying that the the purpose of the gifts
01:14:17: These signs and wonders these miraculous gifts is to vindicate or as it says here confirm
01:14:25: The word of the spoken word of god that was then written down Okay. Well you have times like in judges samson
01:14:33: He asked for the holy spirit unlike the apostles he actually asked for it. So maybe now
01:14:40: We do have to ask for it more. Okay, so you think we should ask for it more? So you think we should see a lot of miracles then?
01:14:48: Yeah, I mean jesus said seek And you'll find Okay, the lord without you're seeking the lord with all your heart -minded soul.
01:14:56: Well, that's that's not asking for miracles So so let's let's do an experiment Let's remove all of the miracles done by human beings over the 4 000 years of biblical history that we have and Let's take out the times where there's new writing of scripture
01:15:14: And let's see how how many miracles are are we left with We're left with eight miracles in 4 000 years
01:15:23: That doesn't sound like something that's common. Does it? The bible says show no partiality to man that means no man is greater than any other man, okay
01:15:34: James if I may I think that's important. I think that's important You mean avoiding avoiding the the answer to answering the question is important one man can do it in 4 000 years
01:15:44: We could do it today About partiality not showing partiality that's in terms of salvation that god shows no partiality to your status where you're from Your bloodline pedigree anything like that that has nothing to do with with these these spiritual gifts
01:16:02: That that's a salvific Verse so you can walk on water james
01:16:10: Can I walk on water? Why can't you walk on water peter walked on water? Yeah, I mean
01:16:15: I believe Human being walk on water. I mean many people have tried that when god gives an anointing
01:16:21: For everything there's an anointing of preaching anointing and teaching But here's the thing of being an evangelist
01:16:29: Here's the thing you keep giving us talking points Not scripture. We keep giving you scripture and the scriptures you have given.
01:16:37: No, I have Each let me finish each of the passages you've given have been out of context
01:16:44: If it's out of context i'll quote or i'll paraphrase Uh john calvin if you take god's word out of context, you no longer have god's word you have man's word
01:16:56: Once you take it out of context, you no longer have the word of god You don't have you're giving it a new meaning and you you've done that over and over again
01:17:03: You have romans 2 11 there for there's no partiality with god colossians 3
01:17:08: Hold on 25. Hold on romans. What? 211 Okay, so you're saying that this so you're saying that this in its context is going to teach us
01:17:19: That if one person can do something we all can do it. Is that what you're saying? Yes, no one is special in the eyes of the lord, okay
01:17:28: That's okay. So you're saying that the apostles are not better than us Oh, but it's not okay, but that's not the see you have a category error here.
01:17:36: We're not talking about better We're talking about ability two different categories
01:17:43: You're saying if one person has the ability to do something every other human being has the ability to do something
01:17:52: So So if one person ever could do a miracle a gift have a miraculous gift
01:17:58: Then every one of us must be able to have that correct. Well, I believe If god permitted it is possible to walk on water.
01:18:05: I've never done it But I jesus said blessed is he who sees with or believes without seeing
01:18:14: Okay. Okay. Here's the thing and and Folks I want I want you to see what keeps happening
01:18:21: And those who are regular to the show you've seen this countless times um
01:18:27: But every time I ask a question It's not being answered it's being we'll jump over here.
01:18:34: We'll we'll jump somewhere else or we're going to quote a verse My answer is yes. Yes, I believe that that means that we
01:18:43: Can do anything that other people have done. Yes, I do believe that so so then therefore then the passage you gave
01:18:50: Romans 2 11 is not dealing with salvation, correct? It's dealing with gift giftedness and ability
01:18:58: I believe Well, I have to look at the which are you talking about the romans the romans 2 2 11 that you mentioned for there is no partiality with god.
01:19:07: That's you're you're saying that's not dealing with salvation That's dealing with spiritual gifts and abilities well,
01:19:14: I mean according to Many other verses I believe that but let's no, no, I mean look at I have to look at the context.
01:19:21: I look at Context and the context right the verse right after that says for we have all sinned without the law and perish
01:19:29: Without the law and those who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law right, so There who's who is it?
01:19:38: That's under the law jewish people or gentiles The jewish people jewish people and then he continues down to verse 14 for when the gentiles
01:19:48: Now who's that speaking of? Is that speaking to people or not the non -jews?
01:19:55: Yes. Yeah gentiles and so Just before that verse 10, but glory and honor and peace be to everyone who does good both to the jew
01:20:05: First and also the gentile or to the greek. Sorry Is that the jews and the gentiles
01:20:11: Yes. Okay. So the verse before it and the verses after it are speaking of what jews and gentiles
01:20:19: Yes. Yes Could that be? I mean, this may be a radical thought but could verse 11, which is sandwiched between The passages before it in verse 9 referring to jews and gentiles verse 10 jews and gentiles versus 12 to 14 jews and gentiles could it be that the partiality is that Everyone gets saved the same way both jews and gentiles that there's nothing special about jews
01:20:45: Yes, yes, I agree with that too so So the only thing special about jews, okay
01:20:53: Yeshua, yes remove this this verse that you used because that no longer fits with the context you gave it
01:21:00: Right, so you can't use this one to make the claim that That because they could do miracles you could do miracles that that's not what that's teaching
01:21:09: It's teaching that jews and gentiles all get saved the same way right Mm -hmm
01:21:17: Okay, so then we and I we could do this all night We can look at every because we've looked at every single passage that you've given and all i've done is read context
01:21:27: And every passage does not teach what you claim it teaches Yeah, andrew
01:21:33: I I just want to bring up something and I got this from uh from jim osman Uh, because he teaches this right at the beginning of his hebrews.
01:21:41: Uh sermons and it's Who does miracles in scripture right specifically in the new testament now?
01:21:49: You've got All of the stats and numbers throughout the entire bible and I encourage everyone to go get that because it's mind -blowing
01:21:59: But but let's just look at uh two people two
01:22:05: Two sections. Okay, you have jesus and then you have the apostles All right, so so you can start and I have these written in my bible next to the verses
01:22:15: Um so that it's and they're highlighted. So it's like a little daisy chain that follows one after another So we see jesus you can go
01:22:22: Acts 2 verse 22 and then look at john chapter 3 verse 2
01:22:28: John chapter 5 verse 36 john chapter 10 Versus 25 and 38 john chapter 14 verse 11
01:22:36: And then for the apostles you can look at Acts chapter 2 verse 43 acts chapter 5 verse 12 acts chapter 14 verse 3 acts chapter 15 verse 12 acts chapter 19 verse 11 and second corinthians 12
01:22:52: And what you're going to notice is this pattern that god was doing signs and wonders through jesus
01:23:01: And then through the apostles And there are only two instances
01:23:08: In the new testament of people who were not apostles doing signs, but they were people who were directly connected to the apostles
01:23:17: So we don't we don't see just this outbreak of a whole bunch of people Performing all these signs wonders miracles and doing all the all of these things
01:23:26: We see it distinctly with two groups of people jesus and the apostles Yeah, and and the thing is
01:23:37: So we've we've gone through the passages that you brought up right Right And the reason
01:23:44: I i'm I know we want to talk about benny hinn, right? but the thing is is
01:23:50: Benny hinn has led you astray james Because he's led you
01:23:57: To believe the bible says something the bible doesn't say You're having to in each one of these passages read something into the bible
01:24:08: And and we're just looking at context and realizing the bible is not teaching what what you're saying it teaches that should concern you james
01:24:16: It's because you want to follow truth, right? Yes, I do and where are we going to get the truth from Word of god and is it going to be we read the word of god in context or when we add context to it well,
01:24:33: I have other verses that Say that the apostles are not any more
01:24:40: Aptly to receive the gifts than than people today All right Well, we'll look at a couple more
01:24:48: Okay, so you have uh and and and i'm gonna give you a couple more and then we
01:24:54: I do want to bring pedro and see if he's got questions and I know eric's still backstage but first corinthians first corinthians 3 5 when they talk about um
01:25:06: Let me just make sure that's the right verse What then is a polis? And what is paul?
01:25:13: Yeah, they're saying they are nothing. It's all about jesus christ. Anyway Oh, that's so they're nothing.
01:25:19: So okay So it's not teaching that we're all the same And Remember when uh in the book of acts when they went to go worship
01:25:30: Well, hold on. Hold on. Let's deal like you keep doing this. Sure So this passage is not teaching that we're all the same it's teaching that there's that we're not better than the lord
01:25:40: Right. Yeah Okay, so so this doesn't teach what you claim to talk And when they went to go worship barnabas and paul, they said hey, we're just men
01:25:51: That's x 50 again. So why were they why why did it say that what were they doing?
01:25:57: In x 50 because they um They did some kind of miracle and then uh, they went to go worship and said no we went to worship them as god
01:26:06: I don't want glory. We don't glory for us. The miracles are supposed to bring glory to god not to us
01:26:11: We do the same thing. So then that passage is teaching that they're men. They're not god. They're not worthy of worship, correct?
01:26:18: Right, so that's not teaching that we could do miracles because they did miracles that's teaching that they're not god and don't deserve worship
01:26:26: So so I mean how many passages do we have to go through before you start to see that You keep taking them out of context
01:26:34: I mean one after another after another is it starting to concern you at all? That that's happening
01:26:41: That you can't be honest with scripture. I don't I don't and i'm not saying that to say That you're trying to be dishonest.
01:26:47: I think you've been deceived By deceivers. I mean look let me ask this question
01:26:52: Has benny hinn promised people blessings and healings yes, and have they come true
01:27:01: Every time I don't I don't follow him that closely. I just The stuff he believes in general.
01:27:08: Okay, has there I agree the same stuff. Has there been any instance?
01:27:14: that he Claimed someone could be he would be healed or Claimed a blessing promised a blessing
01:27:22: And it didn't come true So a seed you give him money
01:27:28: You will you will become rich you will get money and now now
01:27:34: If we're on a different subject and my beliefs are Somewhat different.
01:27:39: I don't necessarily believe the prosperity gospel You said you believe you came in here saying you believe everything and that's almost everything according to this this subject because I believe god will
01:27:57: He does bless people when we give but only if that's where god wants us to be but god will
01:28:05: God will make your life miserable if you're not where he wants you to be But yet this is where you're getting all this teaching from is guys like this who who are charlatans and frauds
01:28:16: They've made promises to people that they would be healed and become wealthy their bills would be taken care of well for benny hen
01:28:24: This actually happened to him. He began to give to anointed churches who practiced the gifts and then he became blessed
01:28:31: Because that's where god wanted. That's where god was charlatan who takes from people He he's yeah, he's not this is not god's blessing because he's taught false doctrine
01:28:43: Didn't he also bury into money too It is it wasn't his wife's father like some kind of owner of a christian public christian publication or something like that I don't know.
01:28:53: Well, I know like kenneth copeland. He's he got rich off of oil Not just his people giving
01:29:02: So, I mean, you know, you know, it's amazing when I went to kenneth copeland's believers conference is
01:29:07: I heard jesse duplantis Uh creflo dollar Another guy whose name
01:29:14: I can't remember all talk about going to doctors to get healed Yeah If you're going to take your argument if we're going to take your argument god doesn't show preference when when the people's healed
01:29:29: They could heal everybody Immediately. I mean jesus healed entire towns.
01:29:34: It says Everybody whether they believed or not So you should be able to do that you should be able to empty every hospital that is in your neighborhood
01:29:45: Unless of course you you don't love your neighbor Well, first of all the security won't let us in Security won't let you in because they don't believe they don't believe in god.
01:29:56: You can't go in a hospital. I I go in hospitals all the time No one stops me
01:30:03: You walk right in I mean if you if you had the ability to heal
01:30:10: The way that jesus and the disciples had the ability to heal Then you should be able to walk in a hospital and empty it
01:30:18: Go to st. Jude's children's hospital And empty that place You know why nobody does that did jesus do that?
01:30:27: Yeah It's it scripture says he he held he healed entire towns Everybody even people that didn't believe there were 10 lepers only one believed the other nine don't believe but they were no the lepers they came
01:30:42: Only one came back. It doesn't mean they didn't believe though Why didn't they come back because maybe
01:30:51: I don't know they told jesus said uh, what The whole point of what jesus asking is why he said they were ungrateful.
01:30:58: They were ungrateful or something like that. Yeah Yeah, jesus is questioning that he's the only one to come back he's making the point that they're not believing that the others weren't believing
01:31:08: You know why the fake healers say that it's about someone's belief and not their belief
01:31:15: Because then they can continue with the charade Then they can say oh look It's you that has the problem
01:31:23: No, not necessarily so, uh, I mean some yeah, i'm sure doing that but Uh, it seems that kofi knows knows these guys jerry saval was the other guy believe me if uh, you don't believe god's gonna heal you sometimes god just Let me speak to some of benny hens, uh
01:31:46: We'll call them crusades or gatherings things like that. Um Do you believe that benny hens screens people who come to his stage?
01:31:58: I don't how I know are you asking someone else right? No i'm i'm asking Do you believe do you but I have a comment on that though if if my pastor told me to fake something
01:32:11: I would disown them But Yeah, but that's not what i'm asking.
01:32:17: I don't believe people are faking it I don't believe So you don't you don't believe that people are faking it you believe that those people
01:32:24: Are are really are really sick and impaired that are going up to the stage To get healed by benny hen.
01:32:31: Yeah Yeah, because do you believe all the people that are in wheelchairs That they came in there on wheelchairs or could they have walked in With crushing.
01:32:42: I don't think one person would fake that because they feel too guilty I mean if you don't have the holy spirit you have no reason to feel guilty but but the reason i'm asking this is because If you've listened to this show, you've probably listened to justin peters a lot as well and justin has spoken on this
01:33:00: Numerous times Where there's a backstage there's a curtain that separates the people who are in the audience
01:33:07: From the really sick people on the hospital beds and who have cancer And who are sitting backstage who never get seen by benny hen and never get healed
01:33:18: And so so and let me say this is I went to church with a guy who his job In one of these churches was to do the screening
01:33:27: He would have someone come in that would use a cane And they would say hey, let us help you they'd have a wheelchair brought to him
01:33:34: They'd sit him in the wheelchair when they brought him up on stage. They'd say see he can walk Well, he would walk his way in He could walk before But everyone says see it's a miracle
01:33:45: And he gets caught up in it. But my the guy that I went to church with it was his job To not only do that to put people that could walk and he could tell who could walk
01:33:55: Okay Without the without the cane. They just had it for for stabilization They'd put them in a in a wheelchair and everyone thinks it's a miracle
01:34:04: His other job was to ask details of people and he'd gather information and then give it to the pastor
01:34:10: So when the pastor would say that there's someone here that has this It isn't because it was some miraculous thing.
01:34:18: It's because he did his job by doing by talking to people as they came in Jotting things down and running it up to the pastor.
01:34:26: Yeah, we see that with other people too Sometimes god tells us as a word of knowledge.
01:34:33: No, it's not a word of knowledge. He asked them he's not Well, I mean like that the people that benny han did not pray for Maybe god was telling benny han that you can't i'm not gonna heal them
01:34:46: I'm, not gonna heal him now because notice what you're doing a different thing for them James, you keep making excuses
01:34:52: For both him and his doctrine that is not out of the bible He's a false prophet if he if he's a false prophet just once Then he's a false prophet
01:35:04: Unless you're remembering that god could be in error I mean if you remember jesus asked many times the people do you have faith?
01:35:11: Do you believe has nothing to do with what deuteronomy says about false false prophets? Because in other words i'm not gonna heal you if you don't believe when someone says thus says the lord
01:35:23: Are you saying that god could be wrong that god could get something wrong? Would I let me give you for instance when all of these faith healers prophets claimed that Donald trump would be re -elected in this next term
01:35:39: Every single one of them prophesied that said thus says the lord they were all wrong
01:35:45: Does that make them false prophets or is god the one that was false? They would be false prophets.
01:35:52: I have a have a a unique opinion on that though well James Do you believe that it's god's will to heal people?
01:36:02: Yes, but sometimes it's god's will that He doesn't heal us till he gets us where he wants us to be
01:36:10: Okay, like in a certain church to be healed and then he'll heal us after but but benny
01:36:16: Isn't doesn't benny hen teach god wants you to be healed therefore come receive your healing
01:36:21: And people show up in faith Thinking that they're going to be healed
01:36:28: God wants you to be healed, but sometimes it's after but that's not obedience. That's not what benny teaches
01:36:36: Is Well, I think that's what's happening the healing is now god wants you to be healed therefore come up front and receive your healing
01:36:43: I mean, he may not understand it himself but that's why god doesn't heal some people because That's not the gift of healing
01:36:54: The gift of healing the person has the gift That they can heal
01:37:00: I believe there's always some form of faith and even repentance to everyone that jesus healed okay, so But that's that's not yeah, that's not what we see in scripture.
01:37:12: But does would paul have the gift of healing? Yes, so he can heal anybody he wanted
01:37:20: No, he could even heal himself That's right. Not heal himself, but he had a messenger he had in philippians chapter two
01:37:28: He's got someone that was very close to him. That was near death Near death and he couldn't heal him
01:37:37: So but so god, why why does god show preference? according to you Because he has because he wants us to bring
01:37:47: Bring us closer to him. Okay, so god got it. God's first right first is salvation number one like you guys say
01:37:55: Salvation is number one Then healing and deliverance if we take your interpretation of the bible then god has to heal him because otherwise he's showing preference
01:38:06: For the one in philippians, but yeah, if if i am i'd have to look it up what else
01:38:15: Right, that's that's you're saying that's preference that was philippians right now Uh philippians 2 and you can see where it talks about.
01:38:23: Uh them Verse 25 Okay And all right, right.
01:38:30: Yeah, the partiality preference stuff. Yeah See if you're if you're if you're if you're going to be consistent with that then this man has to be healed
01:38:37: If aphroditus isn't isn't healed Then god's showing preference by your argument and i'm saying that okay.
01:38:46: Yeah, right. Yeah to the My logical conclusion, correct, correct i'm trying to point that out so you could see
01:38:55: That there's a problem in in your logic in your thinking So that you'll come to scripture and let that be the final authority.
01:39:02: Well I believe god Does want to heal everyone but everyone has a different purpose.
01:39:08: So All right, whether he wants us to be healed in heaven Or he wants us to go somewhere else to be healed or he wants us to Do something take the first step to show a little faithfulness first and then
01:39:24: It'll give us the next step. Okay, so staying in philippians you're saying we have to show faithfulness first So yes, there's gods
01:39:36: Well, he must have just dropped his phone might have died His phone probably died his phone probably died.
01:39:42: I did want to bring pedro in so now would be a good time Then let me bring pedro in and see what questions hit pedro.
01:39:47: Welcome to apologetics live Hey guys, how you doing? Better than I deserve Hey, love the show.
01:39:55: Thank you for all you guys do. I'm a long time listener. Um i'm in sale, so I I listen to all your podcasts and um, it's been so edifying for me, but I um,
01:40:06: I grew up in the catholic church. So I I became I started listening to matt mack flake about five years ago that's kind of where I heard about you and I kind of Started tying it all in together.
01:40:18: And well, my my condolences that you listen to Right. I love the guy man.
01:40:23: He's he's awesome. He's uh yeah, he I just love his tact and um
01:40:29: Anyway, he he it's so funny. Somebody called him the other day And he goes I know how you are
01:40:34: I'm, not gonna i'm not even gonna get ready to turn my turn signal on right now because you know matt's real quirky about little sounds
01:40:39: What's that noise hey, what's that you got some wind there, you know, so Sometimes it makes me cringe. I'm like, oh my god, but yeah, he's right in person
01:40:49: What's that try that in person with matt I can imagine I can imagine but but I was just gonna say yeah,
01:40:56: I grew up in the catholic church. So, um, You know, I I came out of the catholic church
01:41:02: Went to catholic high school catholic college and then I started getting into the prosperity churches and You know,
01:41:08: I just started looking at the bible differently and I was like, you know what there's something So I I wound up in I wound up in prosperity churches and I and I and I wound up in these tongue -speaking churches
01:41:19: And and it always made me feel so uncomfortable, right? So I I never really felt my wife grew up in in that type of church as well.
01:41:26: And um I just never really felt comfortable with the whole thing And I started reading the scriptures and I read some of the scriptures about edifying yourself and i'm thinking okay
01:41:36: Well, maybe there's a thing and then there's a scripture about the groanings and we don't know what we're saying The utterances and things like that that paul's talking about and um
01:41:45: Did he bring that scripture up by the way about the utterances and and we don't know what we're saying? Yes, um, but our spirit is okay um
01:41:53: So anyway, he uh, so so I was reading that so i'm like that makes sense but but I just like I said,
01:41:58: I never felt comfortable with it and and I just um I thank god for people like matt slake and you guys that are like when
01:42:05: I started really studying the scriptures It really opened my eyes to wait a minute. There's a reason
01:42:11: I feel comfortable with it because It's not it's not it's not the way you're supposed to praise god. Um, so anyway,
01:42:17: I have an autistic son He's he's pretty he's pretty autistic. I mean, he's pretty low level. He's 24 years old
01:42:24: He exhibits, you know aggressive behaviors and things like that. We just try to Keep him calm. He lives with us.
01:42:29: We have full guardianship of him But you know, I took him when he was about probably about five years six years ago
01:42:35: I took him to this church that was going to prosperity church and um, And there was a faith healer came in from from out
01:42:42: You know, he came in from another country and had this, you know, this aura and everyone's like oh he's a faith healer He's coming today
01:42:48: So i'm like great. We're gonna take my son, you know, i'm all excited I'm like we're gonna take my son and get him prayed for So when
01:42:54: I when I walk my son in I They bring him into this back room, right? I brought him in after church because my son won't sit through the service
01:43:01: And and when the guy saw my son and he kind of saw his condition he his eyes just got you could tell I I could just tell like He was like whoa.
01:43:09: This is like what what did you know? They want me to pray for this this kid that what do they were they expecting here, you know, so and again
01:43:16: Later on as i'm studying the reform doctrines studying scriptures. I started seeing like That look on his face was like I can't do nothing for him, you know,
01:43:26: I'm saying like I all that's coming to the surface now. How um
01:43:32: What a false uh, what false claims are putting out there about this I I just wanted to share that because You know
01:43:39: I was in it and I came out of it by learning the scriptures and I believe that god If he puts you in it, you know, he he kind of and if you're looking for truth
01:43:48: He's gonna he's gonna take you out of that if you're really seeking truth, right looking for truth Um, he's gonna bring you out of those those churches
01:43:55: So I just just keep praying for this man that you know, he's seeking truth and and that he'll uh, you know
01:44:01: He'll he'll he'll come out of that Yeah, I mean one of the things that You know,
01:44:06: I I came out of it as well And I mentioned earlier the paper that I have on at striving fraternity on first corinthians 12 13 14
01:44:16: Um, i'm just pedro i'm just gonna mute you for a moment There we go. There's something in the background that was just making a lot of noise, but you can unmute yourself after I say this so you could start talking again, but I I my paper that that's on my website about understanding biblical tongues
01:44:34: You know an overview. It's basically an overview of first corinthians 12 13 14. The reason I I wrote that and came to that was
01:44:41: I I was Coming from a jewish background. I didn't understand christianity I was saved for two years just reading a bible
01:44:48: Then I went to college everyone in college was most of the people were word of faith or charismatic They I figured they know better than I on what the bible teaches.
01:44:57: So I I was just trusting them and Four years of college and and having that that teaching.
01:45:04: Uh, I was believing that I I believed I was speaking in tongues Uh, what
01:45:09: I was actually doing was uh, just a gibberish It I ended up um
01:45:16: When I I was at a bible study and two guys were at a table I wasn't even involved in their conversation.
01:45:22: I was just at the other end of the table having a cup of coffee and One guy says to the other guy.
01:45:28: Well, not all of us believe that tongues continued to today and I went wait what? Never heard that before So I went home that night and read first corinthians 12 13 and 14 in one sitting asking the question is paul teaching
01:45:43: Everything I was taught about tongues And reading it in context. I walked away and realized paul was condemning the very behavior
01:45:51: We see in the charismatic movement that probably same behavior that existed in the first century
01:45:57: And so what what I quickly realized is As I said paul's condemning behavior through the whole book of first corinthians
01:46:06: It was more fitting that he's condemning behavior with with spiritual gifts as well And I realized that all the things that I was talking with with james about was there they were
01:46:18: Condemning the very things they are same arguments being made today the same arguments. I believe were being made in corinth
01:46:24: And paul was condemning it back then And and that's what we end up seeing and that's why it breaks my heart with a guy like james who
01:46:33: Came from a good cessationist position And got sucked in because of his experience and and I highlight that because folks listen
01:46:43: Every time you talk to someone like james Their ultimate authority is always their experience
01:46:50: They know it's true because of what they experienced And and you saw how many passages he took out of context he added to the to the scriptures
01:47:02: He what we call is a jaded instead of exegete what are those two words means is a jeet means to put into And exegete is to take out of he put into put a meaning into the bible and i'm taking a meaning out of the bible
01:47:19: And so that's what we end up seeing and and that I mean how many times did I have to say to him drew?
01:47:25: This should concern you That you're taking these passages out of out of context that that the scriptures are not teaching
01:47:32: I mean every single verse There wasn't a single verse that he got right and yet Several times he had to admit that what i'm saying the bible saying is exactly what it's saying because all i'm doing is reading the context
01:47:48: Right and yet he doesn't give up the position why Because it's his experience well, yeah, it's it's a lot of feeling base and I I I'm me and my wife right now, we're kind of challenged because she's still that's a challenge, you know when you're
01:48:05: Married to someone that that has she's coming out of it because the more i'm the more i'm showing her scripture
01:48:11: Um, and i'm like that doesn't mean that or this doesn't mean that and she'll like what you know Because it's what we it's what you've been taught and again, you don't study
01:48:19: This is what they just they throw at you and and you've been taught that so Now i'm kind of slow rolling teaching her because some of the things she just doesn't and i'm just you know
01:48:28: It's it's kind of difficult when it's your wife and i'm just like what well doesn't that doesn't mean that I know Pedro I believe that before i'm going to give you a resource that you'll want to get a hold of Okay it's not available yet, but Uh coming next month will be available a film a documentary called cessationist
01:48:48: And you'll want to get that and just I haven't even seen it yet, but you'll want to get it and just say to her.
01:48:55: Hey Let's watch this together That way someone else is telling her not you so you don't have to be the bad guy
01:49:03: Right, exactly and always blame it on andrew anyway Yeah, you can blame it, but you know, i'll tell you seriously pedro
01:49:08: I'll tell you what you could do you you can go to striving fraternity check it get the phone number call me Okay, or email me and if you want i'll be happy to To sit down over a phone and talk with you and your wife and and answer any any questions from from the scriptures with this to it
01:49:26: Because it's Our i'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off our challenge our son is is extremely challenging in our life
01:49:34: He's he's really um, yeah autism. It's it's not it's not easy. It's not easy I no not at all.
01:49:39: And and I I have a lot of guilt even with Not being able to go to church functions and I see the people they're like, oh, where were you?
01:49:47: I'm like, man, I I can come you know it and I want to be more involved and i'm thinking so so many people don't understand that so I had
01:49:54: We had when I was pastoring my first pastorate we had a child that was she was 15 or 16
01:50:03: Very very autistic um and and the problem the problem was in her in their case,
01:50:09: I mean part of the problem was is The parents because she was autistic they never
01:50:15: Disciplined her or anything. They let her always have her way And then when she became
01:50:21: A teenager and she's larger than her mother She's almost as big as her father
01:50:27: And she's violent. I mean the mother can handle my son's in the same. Yeah, my son's in the same boat.
01:50:33: He's bigger than me Yeah, it makes it super hard Because they they don't
01:50:41: They all look the same. Yeah, it's challenging but but sometimes I feel like Yep, you're breaking up I'm, sorry about that.
01:50:51: My wife's calling me. Sorry about that me and my wife um You know, we'll have to take turns going to church because it's like well
01:50:57: It's hard to get babysitters on sunday and things like that. So There's a lot well
01:51:03: Let me give you it. Um And hopefully your church will do this but one of the things that I did uh was
01:51:11: I challenged our church to say look We have a person Who has a need?
01:51:18: Because they used to do like you did they would take turns coming to church And and I told our congregation we have a responsibility to help this family.
01:51:26: Sunday is the one day That they should get a break And be able to worship god and we should take turns
01:51:35: To care for this child. Was that difficult for everyone? Yeah, but it actually gave everyone a greater appreciation for what this mother and father had to go through every day.
01:51:42: Yeah Right and and and the dang the dangerous the way where it's dangerous and people with with Especially newer christians and and they're coming they're saying oh we can heal you, you know
01:51:52: And then you go take your son or whoever you take and they were praying over this three -year -old kid
01:51:57: Who had cancer and and i'm in holding them up on stage and i'm just thinking today I wonder what's going on with that kid today, but um, but it but you feel
01:52:07: Like you said you don't have enough faith. I'm i'm doing something wrong You're trying to you're looking at every little aspect of your life.
01:52:13: What am I doing wrong? What did I do to cause that in his life? What did I do to cause that in my life, you know, and I was an athlete growing up.
01:52:20: I was always a star athlete You would I would never thought my life would have this kind of situation going on And and yet you look back and I say god he's using it and now
01:52:30: I look at it I say god use it for your glory, even though it's difficult I tell people that all the time and they don't you know people that unbelievers they don't understand that but You know,
01:52:39: I led my my mom out of the out of the catholic church she's going to a um christian church now and um,
01:52:45: You know, I told her that because they see the challenge, but they also see us Smiling, you know, we're still trying to live.
01:52:51: We're still trying to live for the lord Which he put it he put it in and that's the one thing about being in the you know, god being sovereign overall that's one thing you get is
01:53:01: It's not about feeling because i'm this doesn't feel good. You know what i'm saying? I want it to go away I want him to be healed.
01:53:06: I I want my life to be a lot easier, but it's not about my feeling, you know It's about what god's using it in my life for whatever reason me and my wife's life
01:53:14: And I say, you know what if this is what made me be saved This is what kept me from being in the world then praise god, you know, then
01:53:22: I'd rather have this than than being lost You know pedro, would you believe that you and I have that in common that we were star athletes in high school?
01:53:30: Oh, yeah I believe that's totally wrong Me and pedro probably helped that morning.
01:53:36: Yeah I actually won a state championship andrew. Nice. Nice. Awesome Well, I I was okay.
01:53:43: So I will say for the record when I was in seventh and eighth grade. I was a star wrestler
01:53:49: Dude, you're you're uh, you look like a wrestler, but you're your lunchbox your lunchbox.
01:53:54: I crack up Every time I can imagine you all the kids playing and you're behind putting the lunchbox.
01:54:01: That's just that cracks me up Yeah for folks that don't get the content that don't know that so i've shared in it when
01:54:07: I was younger I'm, so I was so ocd that when all the kids would go out to to play
01:54:13: And throw their lunch boxes on the ground. I had to organize them by height order and color and I so I would spend the entire recess organizing lunch boxes
01:54:23: Uh, but yeah, no, I I actually was a good wrestler in seventh eighth grade But the reason was is because I was about 60 pounds underweight
01:54:31: So by the time I got into high school I was as a freshman. I stopped wrestling because people were trying to drop down to my weight and couldn't get low enough
01:54:41: So I was always wrestling people who had like 50 pounds on me Wrestlers wrestlers are crazy.
01:54:48: They I used to see those guys spitting in cups all day during you know I'm, like what are you doing? They're like we gotta gotta get to weight wearing those bags
01:54:54: I think it's illegal to do that now, but they run around I did nothing to drop weight. I just I was naturally
01:55:01: Underweight, but we had an advantage there. Yeah But uh, I was always wrestling people that were like half my age now
01:55:09: Yeah, exactly. So so, you know, I I think though you you you know, we're gonna be praying for you because the situation
01:55:16: You know what? That's like having a child like that. I mean not personally but having watched it in my church
01:55:22: It's not easy and so You know and I know That a lot of people don't understand it nor appreciate it nor nor really try to help it
01:55:33: Yeah, it's it's a challenging diagnosis because there's so many different aspects. There's behaviors. There's anxiety high levels of anxiety
01:55:39: There's ocd there's just different things There's schedule like ocd on a schedule any little thing goes off on that schedule and it could throw him out of whack
01:55:47: It could throw his whole day off and you know, there's there's a lot in my son is Nope breaking up again
01:55:58: And i'll just say you know, uh You know, this is this we were mentioning matzlick matzlick is also in in the autism spectrum, you know in in the asperger's it's a type of of uh autism
01:56:10: Uh, but for the for the highly intelligent, um, and and that's part of with ocd what you have is a very intelligent
01:56:17: A lot of times have the ocd Um, it's just something in that, you know, I think it's just a balance like okay
01:56:24: You're really smart, but you got these other problems Well, we think my my three -year -old is on the on the high functioning spectrum
01:56:31: Because my wife used to work with with uh kids with autism And so she's she's noticing every time he starts stemming and and things like that.
01:56:41: And so, uh, We we believe he's on the spectrum and it's the behaviors and you know trying to trying to keep those under control and things like that, but uh
01:56:52: The more the older he gets I I think the more it's it's starting to become less and less noticeable
01:56:59: Yeah Early intervention is the key. Um when when my son was, you know, this is 24 years ago
01:57:05: So he got diagnosed at three years old and they were like good luck and they handed us this pamphlet I'm a young dad.
01:57:10: I got two other kids and i'm trying to put food on the table I'm like, what do I do? Like how do I even what do
01:57:16: I do? So Now they have I mean aba is now paid for through insurance, which is great
01:57:21: We had to actually sue our school district. Um, because he had abuse going on there and and we sued
01:57:28: Nope We heard we sued that's all we got. I know and it was just getting good. Can you can you hear me?
01:57:35: Yeah Yeah, okay. Sorry about that, but we had to sue the school district to get services They were putting them in this little closet to learn and my wife was like no.
01:57:43: No, no, that's not acceptable and and so it's just it's been a
01:57:49: Constant it's been a battle for real like yeah, they pay for all of his services, which was great But then it put it taxed my wife because she's taking them all over the city this different serve
01:57:58: Which was great, but you know, it's we got other kids too. So that's the other thing It's like it doesn't just affect mom and dad affects everyone
01:58:08: Yeah, exactly Like what's you know, we get no attention from mom and dad because one child requires so much
01:58:14: Yeah, my daughter even told us she thought he was faking it to get it and i'm like, you know When she was younger, of course, she was like, yeah,
01:58:20: I always thought he was like faking it And then when you guys turned around he was acting normal and i'm like no but Just for the record we were talking about gifts and things like that So you got you know that matt slick believes in the continuation of gifts.
01:58:33: Yeah. Yeah He and i've actually debated it and you know, i've heard i've heard the debates.
01:58:38: Yeah when matt and I first debated it matt made arguments from scripture, but Uh, we
01:58:45: I it's one of the things I don't debate with him anymore because he does get emotional about it
01:58:50: Is and there's a lot to his background Right, um that it cost him a lot with this belief.
01:58:56: But yeah, I I heard about the church He lost the church pastorate and all that. Yeah Discussion on on this show when we were talking about this nationist movie and he came on.
01:59:05: Yeah Well, we invited him on because he thought you know, he had a real Real problem with the the the film
01:59:11: It was kind of fun. Okay, this was kind of a private conversation, but I think I shared it on the show with matt here uh, but Matt had said he's like this this film is so divisive to the body of christ.
01:59:23: I said matt you got a whole website about Calvinism, don't you think that's far more divisive and he was like, oh, yeah
01:59:33: So, I mean that's the thing I love about matt, you know, like if you if you show matt he's wrong he goes okay
01:59:38: Yeah, you're right Well andrew i've got to head out, uh, you got to get going and we're we're
01:59:44: I was going to close out Let me just pedro. Thanks for coming in um I appreciate it.
01:59:50: We'll be praying for you No, no problem guys. I I do appreciate your ministry and i've learned so much like I said and and um,
01:59:57: You know it this this this hits hits home for me um, because of what we've been through and what i've seen in my life and you know taking that blame of Not him not being healed
02:00:07: I did something wrong. What did I you know, and and that's that's horrible, you know, that's a That's a horrible way to go.
02:00:13: But um, anyway, I appreciate I appreciate any prayers and and um appreciate your ministry Well, thank you.
02:00:19: Pedro. We'll be we'll be praying for you I'm sure that I know that we have a listening audience that does does pray those in the in the comments usually talk about that so um
02:00:28: Let me just get to i'm going to put pedro in the backstage Let me just i'm going to hit two things real quick and then we'll we'll we'll leave that One is uh
02:00:37: Bible care and share fellowship says, uh, you know ask the question question for later
02:00:43: What do you think the proper interpretation is of uh, when the perfect shall come i'm not convinced
02:00:48: Uh that it is the completed canon like ifb teaches. Well, I believe it is the completed canon.
02:00:53: I I I think it's the only thing that it could be in the context. I do have a paper at striving for eternity .org
02:01:01: uh, I think it's Maybe search for the word perfect. I'll try to put these in the show notes for the for the podcast
02:01:08: So if you go find the podcast version of this, uh, which you can't always listen to these You could follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
02:01:15: We did a show on this on this We did a show in the past on this i'll look for that as well to see if I could
02:01:21: I could link that It wasn't that long ago. I think it was like last year. We did. Yeah so, uh
02:01:27: So that we we do have resources that explain that in detail and I preached it at jim osmond's church on this um
02:01:34: You know, and I know that guys like mcarthur and justin peters disagree with me but I just don't see from the content that the the context and the around the passage and That passage
02:01:46: I don't see it could be anything else. So, uh real quick one last thing. Jody says Wonderful wisdom wisdom used on how you approach this young man.
02:01:54: Thank you for being straightforward But showing the love of christ that that's what we're trying to do. I mean look I feel bad for for him
02:02:02: I really do. I mean, I hope that every one of you are praying for for james Because he doesn't
02:02:09: I don't think he realizes he's caught up in a false teaching, right? And that's a bad place to be
02:02:16: And so we want to pray for him. We want to pray that he I mean, I hope my prayer for him
02:02:21: Is that this show helped him to see that what he's doing is taking passages out of scripture out of context and in doing so that he doesn't have god's word and not a single passage could he hold to and so I hope that he would he'd be willing to look at the articles
02:02:38: We have at striving for attorney .org that I mentioned and look at them and say well there's something not right and let me let me just close with this and encourage you if You need some help in this area at your church
02:02:51: Striving for eternity would be willing to come to your church. We have a new seminar. We're working on on cessationism
02:02:58: And so we'll come in and teach about cessationism. We'll teach its history
02:03:04: We'll go from the history to giving an overview of first corinthians 12 13 and 14 From there we focus in on what is the teleos in first corinthians 13 to say that that why?
02:03:15: These these gifts do not continue to today From there we're going to get into the message I gave on miracles and why we shouldn't be expecting miracles today
02:03:24: And then from there we're going to answer the arguments. That's that continuationists make against cessationists
02:03:29: And and and give you some discernment to be able to to answer from a biblical perspective
02:03:37: And what you're saying is I need to finish my book on tongues so that you can give them away
02:03:42: When you you should finish your book on tongues so I can have them available for this seminar
02:03:47: That's that's exactly what i'm saying. It's only been three years that i'm supposed to be working on.
02:03:53: Okay. Well I started writing my book on the deity of christ. I think um 10 years ago all the all the research is done.
02:04:03: It's the writing part that I hate uh I mean, that's why I spent 14 years Researching what do they believe and then it took me about a dozen more years to finally write it
02:04:14: Well, I think i've got about a third a good third of it done It's the part that's going to take the longest is all of the exegesis
02:04:23: Of all of those verses. Yeah. Well, hey, maybe you and I should work on that together and we'll encourage each other to finish it
02:04:30: Yeah, so so folks. I know I know I know I already saw in the audience We got some people saying hey, you forgot my pillow and logos.
02:04:37: I did hello and get logos. There you go My pillow use promo code sfe
02:04:42: Uh logos .com slash sfe go check them out. So there you go
02:04:47: Uh, we appreciate you guys coming in next week. Um, I I will be uh by next week.
02:04:56: Let's see. Will I be no I will be here. So, uh It's before I leave for idaho Um, I don't know that we have anything planned as of yet Uh on the schedule, but I think there's some things that i've been talking to folks
02:05:08: Uh, we're hoping to have a continuation of the talk from from Last week with jim osmond.
02:05:15: Hopefully we can we can get that to happen with curtis. We'll we'll see but uh, I I think that's that's all we have for right now.
02:05:22: Um, i'm glad I hope this was helpful for you guys I hope that look When we talk about the gifts as you saw with james, this is extremely personal to him it's an it's a personal experience and so you can see how how
02:05:38: This can very easily in conversations you have with people They can become something that it is
02:05:45: Just it becomes fireworks very quickly I hope that what we just did was display a way you can
02:05:52: Display a way to have these conversations without the fireworks um where you don't have to you avoid the personal
02:06:02: In that sense, but but focus in on What the scripture says that's what I tried to do tonight
02:06:09: If I did my job well Hopefully james goes home or he is home and he's thinking about this saying
02:06:16: I really need to be accurate to scripture I think he he wants to be and so let's be praying for him