May 20, 2026 Show with Dr. Keith Evans on “Satan & the Demons: What They Can & Cannot Do”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of May, 2026.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have back on for the third time Dr. Keith Evans, who is

Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and former

Director of the Biblical Counseling Institute and Academic Dean at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who wrote his doctoral dissertation on the demonic realm in relationship to Christian counseling.

Today, we're going to be addressing Satan and the demons, what they can and cannot do, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Keith Evans. Thank you so much, Chris. Great to be back. And I want to urge our listeners to, after this live program is over, to listen to the two -part interview that we previously did on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, where we not only addressed the kinds of issues that you bring up and experience in the realm of the demonic involving

Christian counseling, but we also had you give a thorough critique of the popular

Roman Catholic exorcist, Chad Rippenger, who has been taking the

Internet by storm and has been featured on the largest podcast with the largest audiences out there and was,

I think, a very valuable resource to provide because of the fact that so many millions of people watching those interviews with Chad Rippenger and being led astray in some way, and perhaps even, who knows, converting to Roman Catholicism, but also responding to the reality of the demonic realm in an unbiblical and idolatrous and dangerous way.

Have anything further to add on that before we go into today's topic? No, I think that that was a valuable discussion that we had, and by my last count, yes, six million views for Chad Rippenger's interviews, so I'm thankful that we were able to unpack that and sort through some of those things.

Yeah, if anybody wants to look those up after this live show is over, the two interviews took place on April 15th and April 29th.

Just type in Keith Evans in the search engine and you will see both of those interviews.

Well, I thought that the perfect theme to address after those two interviews would be right at the core of what is on most people's minds in regard to Satan and his demons.

In fact, I have been asked many times over the years of what my thoughts were on what

Satan and the demons can and cannot do, and now that I have an expert on the issue on the show,

I think that this would be a great way to answer those questions that I am not capable of answering in any kind of thorough way, not having delved into the research and study you have.

But first of all, going back to basic definitions, who are

Satan and the demons? Yeah, so we see

Satan in the very opening pages of Scripture, Genesis 3. He kind of just shows up on the scene, right?

But as you piece together, in the book of Job, as you see language in Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28, you start to piece together the fuller picture that the angels were created most likely on the first day, and some chose to fall with regard to seeking a position higher than themselves.

So most would agree that Satan, Lucifer, was a cherub beholding the very face of God and wanted a greater position, and was prideful in his position and hungered after even more.

And so he fell along with, as Revelation 12 indicates, a third of the stars of the heavenly host, a third of the stars in heaven.

And so, you know, roughly a third of the angelic host fell in that first transgression.

And so that's when Satan shows up on the scene, Adam and Eve, after they've been created, and then

Satan proceeds to tempt them to fall. So not just the fall of the angelic host, but instigating the fall of humanity.

So that would be the beginnings, the Genesis story of the fall of the angels and the beginning of Satan and his demons.

And Satan being a created being is not omniscient or omnipresent, is he?

Just as the demons are not, correct? Yeah, that's a very helpful clarification.

So yeah, all of the angelic hosts, they're created beings, they are spiritual beings, they don't have bodies like we do, but they're still created entities.

They're not equal with God. So that's another, I guess, common misconception in the broader church.

Well, Satan is kind of the arch -nemesis of the Lord, as though he's kind of on equal footing with the

Lord. And that's not the case at all. God is the only uncreated being, and even the fallen angels are created entities, and so they're creatures and they have creaturely limitations.

Because they have creaturely limitations, they're spatially locatable. They're only in one location at a time.

God alone is omnipresent and omniscient and all the other omnis, right? Whereas Satan, he's just one fallen angel who's at one place at one time.

And yet with a third of the heavenly hosts—I don't know how many that is, but it's many—there can be the deceptive sign as though they are everywhere, or they have exhaustive knowledge, or there's just many of them.

And so they're able to pool their resources or able to work in conjunction.

And so they give the appearance of being more powerful than they actually are. So no, they're created entities, they are spatially locatable, and they don't have the full knowledge, of course, that God has.

And are Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub all the same creation?

Yeah. So most scholars would agree on that, that you see different terminology for Satan.

So the Satan, the devil, Lucifer, that's a reference to the

Latin translation of Isaiah 14. Beelzebub, when that's made reference,

Jesus is casting out demons by Beelzebub, or the prince of demons, right?

This is a placeholder or a different name. Or Belial, you'll see as the apostle

Paul is contrasting what do Christ and Belial have in common, the answer, of course, nothing. So these are all just different names or biblical placeholders for the same entity,

Satan, the devil. And I've heard, when

I think I looked this up many years ago, when I first heard the name

Beelzebub, is it not Hebrew for Lord of the

Flies and also Lord of Dung? And it struck me when

I heard that, because I assumed then that the great novel and movie,

Lord of the Flies, must have gotten that title from that. But I don't know that for certain, but if you could.

Yeah, so it's been a minute since I was wrestling with the Hebrew there. But yes, referring to Lord of the

Flies, Lord of Dung, translated different ways or brought through different languages.

But as far as the literature, Lord of the Flies, a reference to the chief of I can't speak to that, not a literary scholar.

So that's a little bit out of my lane. But as far as the meaning is concerned, yes, exactly.

Oh, I mean, where else would you get a name like that, Lord of the Flies? It's kind of an interesting title.

And I'm assuming that when God inspired that name, that it was really to mean that He's really

God of nothing. He's the Lord of nothing. Am I correct? Yeah, that's right. It's like a kingdom of dirt, right?

Of refuse, of worthlessness. I mean, what do flies lord over?

They lord over dung and refuse. And so that's essentially the greatest that Lucifer is able to achieve.

It's mentioned in the New Testament epistles that we're not to ordain a new convert lest he fall in the sin of the evil one, ascending too quickly and a sense of pride and reaching beyond what he should be reaching for.

And you know, isn't there an irony that here's this one that wanted more than his station of perpetually beholding the face of God and worshiping before the throne of God in a way that none of us have seen and experienced?

He wanted more than that. And what he ultimately gets is he's Lord of dung, right?

I mean, there's a grand irony to that. Well, as far as things that Satan and the demons can and cannot do, well, starting off with even that question, are there things

Satan can and cannot do, or should I even isolate it to, are there things that Satan can do that not all demons can do?

Is he really the ruler of demons? Is he infinitely superior, or perhaps not infinitely, but is he greatly superior to the demons, or is he just one of many devils?

Yeah, so maybe it depends on what we mean by, is he superior? He has a place of authority.

He has a position over, but as far as abilities are concerned, I don't see from the

Scriptures any greater ability. He's one demon among many, and he just so happens to be the one who is in authority over.

Now, granted, we do see in the angelic host, we see a hierarchy that there are cherubim and seraphim, that there's the archangel

Michael, the only archangel mentioned in the Scriptures. We see just angels, messengers, that that's their task.

And so we see kind of a hierarchy or a structure. In similar fashion, you see the Apostle Paul mentioning in Ephesians 6, rulers, powers, principalities.

It seems like there's a parallel hierarchy of those angels that fell find themselves in such a place and station, even within the demonic horde.

And so Satan, being the chief of demons, he has a position of authority, but not of greater ability.

And so there's nothing that Satan can do that his fellow horde can't do, even if there is a different degree of power or authority.

Now, again, in similar fashion, think about the angels. It's mentioned in Daniel chapter 10 that Michael is our prince, the prince of the people of God, the angel who's over then

Israel, of course, but still he's mentioned as the archangel in the New Testament, the archangel of the people of God.

Well, in similar fashion, Satan is the fallen, not archangel, but fallen leader of the demonic horde.

And so then in the book of Jude, when the archangel Michael and Satan are facing off—it's kind of a strange verse in Jude 9, we kind of scratch our heads at—but they're facing off over the body of Moses.

Who gets the rights over the body of Moses? And just think if Satan could have the rights over the body of Moses, what he would have turned that into.

Bow down and worship this great prophet, right? Here are the bones. But so Michael ultimately wins that face -off, and so we don't know where the body of Moses is buried.

But there you see two equals, the archangel Michael and the chief of the demons,

Satan. And it's fascinating how Jude uses that, that they are of equal authority, if you will, that even then

Michael doesn't presume to declare a blasphemous curse, but instead prays, the

Lord rebuke you, Satan. So there's an appeal to the higher authority. So anyway, there's much in there that we can deduce from those portions of Scripture.

But again, back to your chief question there, Chris. No, Satan doesn't have additional abilities that's beyond demons.

When we talk about the study of demons or demonology, which is my field, we're talking about the study of Satan and his horde, one and the same.

There's not like a separate discipline of Satanology because he has so much more abilities or something like that.

No, he's just one of many demons. Now, you've already ruled out that Satan is omniscient, and he's not omnipresent either.

But does he not have some ability to know things that humans cannot know about our fellow humans?

And is this just because God is directing him to this knowledge, or is it because demons are overlooking us and they report back to Satan?

Just to even give a biblical example of this, we're in very classic and chilling texts in Matthew 8, 29, when the demons from the demoniac cry out to Jesus, What business do you have with us,

Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?

They seem to be aware of the biblical facts—well, actually plural.

They know that he's the Son of God, and they know that there is a time of torment awaiting them.

So there's knowledge that they do have, and I was just wondering how far that goes, even when you involve 21st century humanity and so on.

Yeah, it's a great question, and I often get the question, Can demons know the future?

They're wondering how much knowledge do they have, and it's a great question. So again, they're created beings, and they only have abilities according to their created place and station, just like we have knowledge as human beings.

And there are so many different ways we gain knowledge. We don't just gain knowledge by observing.

We do gain knowledge from observing, but we gain knowledge from reading the Scriptures as well. There are many different ways that human beings gain knowledge.

Well, so do angels. The way they gain knowledge is according to their created place and station and also demons.

So do demons therefore have additional knowledge that we as humans don't have?

From a couple of different sources, I think they do, in the sense that they are many, and they find themselves in the spiritual realm, which is like a—if

I can use this term—they're in a different dimension. And so they're able to observe this dimension from the spiritual realm, and they are observing much.

You know, Satan's at least a 10 ,000 -year -old being who has been observing from 10 ,000 years of observation, and he's pooling the resources of his kingdom, so all of his devils observing various things.

I don't necessarily know how well -organized that reconnaissance is.

I don't have any access or knowledge to that. But they're still pooling their resources, so they have knowledge from observation.

But then you also see in the book of Job, in the opening chapters of Job, as well as in 1

Kings 22 about Ahab and his death and the prophecy of Ahab's death, you see that these devils have been given access to knowledge of what

God is going to do, that he is saying, this is going to come to pass, or he's allowing information to come to devils.

And so therefore, they're able to act on knowledge that we don't have access to, but they do as spiritual beings that God has allowed them to receive.

Now, God is sovereign over all of that and his good purposes of why he would allow devils to know these things.

But so then they're going to utilize that information that they have in deceptive ways to make it look like they have real knowledge of the future and that they're somehow omniscient.

And then you have the case in the book of Acts when the apostle Paul casts out the devil and the slave girl, that she was able to tell the future.

And so she made her masters much money. And her masters were very upset, of course, when the apostle Paul cast out the devil, because now here's our income gone from this particular devil.

I think that's more along the lines of the types of parlor tricks that you see in palm reading and tarot cards occultists today.

Now, is it possible that they have access to greater knowledge than just the average human because they're gaining knowledge from devils?

Yeah, certainly. But is it also horoscopy -type prophecies of, oh, you know, something ominous is going to happen in your future,

Chris, and then something happens tomorrow and you're like, oh, that must have been it. That must have been what Keith said was going to happen, right?

So a horoscopy -type general prediction that gives the appearance of foreknowledge.

So hopefully that begins to answer your question a little bit. They have a bit more knowledge than the average human, of course, but not the knowledge that God has unless he himself gives it to them.

Yes, and this may be off topic, but perhaps you could explain why you believe, even though this sorceress girl, servant girl that you were just mentioning, which is in Acts 16, 16 -18, can you tell me why when the sorceress girl was crying out, these men are slaves of the

Most High God who are proclaiming to you a way of salvation? And she was doing this for many days.

And why did this annoy Paul when she was saying something that was true, although there is in this version in the

New American Standard Bible, it interprets it in a way that some don't, because in this particular version, she's saying that the men who are slaves of the

Most High God are proclaiming to you a way of salvation and not the way.

But Paul is getting annoyed by this going on day and night for many days, and he commanded the demon in the name of the

Jesus Christ to depart from the girl. Why would the demon in this girl be telling something, declaring something over and over and over again that your average person would say, seems like she was on the apostle's side.

She's saying something that's true. She's not condemning him or anything like that.

But if you could give your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. Anytime you see Jesus facing off with devils, you see similar type interactions that they're declaring before it is his time, these truths, declaring that he's the son of God, declaring that he's the son of David and so forth, like the promised

Messiah. And you'd think, well, this is great. Here these devils are declaring the things that he wants people to recognize and to see.

And yet it's before his time, and it's using the truth in subversive ways.

You know, you often see the evil one doing that, using truth in ways that are even deceptive and harmful.

So here you see the slave girl just continuously repeating this truth as if she's not permitted to say anything else.

I'll get back to that point in just a minute. She's repeating the truth over and over again, but she's doing it in an obnoxious and subversive way, because then they wouldn't be able to proclaim the gospel the way that they would desire to proclaim the gospel, that their message is going to be crafted in a different way than just, we're here to tell you the way to be saved.

You know, just repeating it over and over again, kind of in a mindless way. And you can imagine, if you're seeking to, you know, proclaim the gospel in an attractive way, a way that is becoming of Christ, he's come to take away the sins of the world, and they're freely offering that word to hear just continuously pounded over and over again.

These men are here to declare the way to be saved. It really would become quite bothersome, onerous, and just difficult to deal with.

You might even say to somebody in your church who kept saying, repeating the same line over and over and over again, you're on a trip with them, and they just won't shut up.

You could even imagine the best of Christians saying, will you shut up already? That's right, yeah.

And so you see the Apostle Paul essentially doing that as he casts out the devil. But you make a good point,

Chris. What if this was taking place in church, and the pastor's trying to preach and proclaim the gospel, and somebody keeps standing up and saying, he's here to proclaim the gospel?

It would really be quite disruptive to the message. I wanted to get back to what

I said just a second ago, though, that it might be the truth that she was permitted to say.

You see, in Numbers 22 and following, in the story of Balaam, when

Balak, the king, hires this prophet to come and curse—he's an occultist, he's an occult prophet—to come and curse

Israel so that Israel might not be able to defeat them in battle.

And Balaam says, if you hire me, I'm only going to be able to say what Yahweh permits me to say.

I'm not going to be able to do any more, no more, no less, effectively. And so you see the limitation of those who are even acting by devils, engaging in occult practices.

They're still limited by the Most High God. So I'm wondering if this slave girl—I know that I'm reading between the lines a little bit, but I'm wondering if the slave girl in Acts 16 is bound that she's only able to say the truth.

And so then, OK, well, if that's all I'm able to say, then I'm going to say it in the most obnoxious way possible. And, of course, it is very wise to not want a demoniac to be perceived by the public as being an ally of yours.

So there's another reason why Paul would exercise her or cast the demon out, because of the fact that, you know, you're not on my team, you know,

I don't want people to think you're on my team. That's a good point. And that even connects with Simon Magus as well, the guy in Acts who wants to buy the power of the

Holy Spirit, and they thought he was converted, and they baptized him. You know, he gave a credible profession of faith.

And then when he asks to buy the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter's like, the truth of God isn't in you.

You're still in the gall of bitterness, right? You're not actually on our side. If you're engaging in these kinds of practices.

And so, therefore, he's, you know, effectively put out of the fellowship, he's excommunicated, because he's not actually on their side.

So you make a good point. The early church does not want to be seen consorting with the cultists.

Right. And as far as the knowledge of the demons go,

I'm going to bring up something that I can't remember if I told you this story off the air or on the air.

I can't even remember if I've ever told this story on the air before, but I'll bring it up now.

Back in my backslidden days, over a decade ago, when

I very tragically returned to habitual drunkenness and was frequenting bars of all kinds.

And I'm not here to condemn my brethren who enjoy the liberty to visit a pub and have a beer or two.

I'm talking about, you know, habitual drunkenness on my part. And at least on three occasions, it could have been more, but at least on three occasions that I can distinctly remember, a total stranger would be sitting at the bar, perhaps across from me or a number of feet away, was never right next to me.

But these three individuals on three separate occasions in three different bars said to me,

Oh, you're that pastor, aren't you? And I responded by saying,

No, I'm a Christian, but I'm not a pastor. And all three of these people always responded,

Oh, no, you're that pastor. I know you're that pastor.

And I kept saying, I'm not a pastor, never was a pastor. And they kept insisting that I was a pastor.

But that was three creepy experiences. By the way, the

Lord did use those experiences to heap further conviction upon me and guilt that I was living in a wrong way, a double life kind of a thing.

But I always wondered, could these have been demoniacs? Now, obviously, neither you or I would know for certain that they were.

But could they have been? And does that give somewhat of an answer to how they have knowledge that extends to a certain degree that many people, if not most, would not have, but they don't have perfect knowledge?

It's kind of a mixture of things going on here where demons may have observed me going to church or something, and they, for some reason, kept saying to me that I was a pastor.

Perhaps you could give your own response to that. Yeah, you had shared that story with me.

I believe it was off the air, Chris. But thank you for your honesty and openness. And that is bizarre, right?

It's spooky. It's unsettling. And I'm sure that people who have a materialist view of the world, as far as no possible demonic activity between the two comings of Christ—and there are some in the

Reformed world who hold to that, right? Those who would have a materialist understanding would probably say,

Well, Chris, you're just imagining that. Or maybe it was just, you know, in a drunken stupor or something like that, that you thought that that was a possibility.

But I mean, it really does bear the hallmarks of truth. It bears the hallmarks of accuracy, and it's unsettling.

It's accusatory. And praise God, the Lord used that as a means of sanctification.

He used that as a means of deliverance. So I praise the Lord for how He superintends even the darkness of the other kingdom, even the accusatory nature of the other kingdom.

And you say, you know, neither of us could know for certain if that is demonic. And I'd say, yeah, neither of us could know for certain.

We don't have any clear passage in Scripture that we could point to and say, Yes, Chris, that was demonic, and we could know for sure.

But as I had mentioned on one of our previous times together, Chris, the Puritans would regularly reference 2

Samuel 14, where David is hearing the accounts of various events, various conspiring situation.

And he says, I perceive that the hand of Joab is in this. And he doesn't know for certain that Joab was engaging in it.

I mean, he was right, but he doesn't know for certain that Joab was involved in this.

And he's simply discerning. He's observing the situation and saying, I perceive this is the case.

And the Puritans said, likewise, we who are spiritual people need to be discerning.

And does this have the hallmarks of the other kingdom? And if it does, then we can say with confidence, not with certainty, of course, but with confidence, this certainly smacks of the other kingdom.

I perceive Joab's hand is in this. And so I would say in similar fashion, you know, the accusatory nature of the repetitive nature of the fact that it was the same type of accusation against you in these circumstances to kind of kick you while you're down in the midst of discouragement or despair and in the midst of sinful activity, right?

To throw that in your face, it certainly has the hallmarks of the other kingdom. All right.

We have to go to our first commercial break. And if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. And please continue to pray for my dear friend,

Dr. Joseph C. Morecraft III, who you just heard being mentioned by Dr.

Joey Piper at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. As many of you know,

Dr. Morecraft, over a month ago, fell in his home, and that led to a hospital stay, and then he was transferred to a physical rehab facility.

He was being examined by doctors for possible release from the hospital, discharging from the hospital, from the rehab facility, just yesterday.

And they decided that it was not in Joe's best interest to discharge him yet, and therefore he is going to be there for at least another week, maybe longer.

So please pray that Joe receives the level of healing and strength and recovery that is required for him to be discharged and return home to his precious wife,

Becky, and also to return to his pulpit at Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and also to return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as a guest.

So please continue to pray for Dr. Joseph C. Morecraft III, and we will give you updates as we receive them.

And if you just tuned us in, I have someone who has become one of my favorite guests of all on my show today,

Dr. Keith Evans, who has written his doctoral dissertation on demonology and its relationship to Christian counseling.

And today is his third visit with us, and he is today talking about Satan and the demons, what they can and cannot do.

And if you have questions, send them in to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

I will only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. Going back to the kind of knowledge

Satan and the demons have, I have a very dear friend,

Gen Niza, who has been on this program. Gen Niza is a former psychic before she was a believer.

She is currently, thanks be to God, after becoming saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, she is a member of the church

I was formerly a member at, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

And she is a theologically sound believer. She is not somebody who is into sensationalizing the whole realm of the demonic and all things related to it.

However, she believes that the demonic realm was giving her information, that she knows that she was not a charlatan, someone who is intentionally deceiving people, as many people who claim to be psychics are charlatans.

Not only does she believe she was receiving personal information from the demons about specific people, but she had friends who were also in the psychic industry, for lack of a better term, who she believes were also being honest with what they thought was a gift, and they were not charlatans.

She wouldn't have remained friends with them if she believed they were. So, for the skeptic out there who thinks that anybody that has a testimony like that is just lying because they're trying to gain popularity or whatever, and there are people out there that fake

Christian testimonies to deceive people in order to gain a following and somehow earn a living off of it.

But I don't believe that's the case at all with Jen, who's been on the show,

I think I've already mentioned a number of times. So, what's your response to that?

Do you believe that people such as Jen are receiving information, personal information, from demons?

I'm sorry, that the demons are receiving personal information somehow through observation from humans and reporting them back to people claiming to be psychics?

Yeah, I think so. Like we talked about already, that they are many and they are observing at all times and giving the appearance of greater knowledge than they actually have.

They have access to knowledge that the Lord permits them to have access to that is greater than human knowledge.

And if that's used in a deceptive way, deceptive signs and wonders, it's going to be genuine information that they're relaying to the occultist, and so the occultist appears like they have supernatural power.

Now, it's demonically given knowledge, and so it's greater than that human is able to have in and of themselves.

But it's not supernatural, it's not like the knowledge of God, it's knowledge acquired by devils.

You see Janice and Jambres, the two magicians who face off with Moses, and they're doing so not just by sleight of hand and just magic signs and wonders, but it's demonically instigated.

And then I know that this is a bit of a controversial take on the passage, but in 1 Samuel 28,

I'm convinced that the witch of Endor there, that when Saul consults with the witch of Endor, the text is quite clear that she's an occultist who's doing this activity by occultic behavior.

And the text literally says in the Hebrew that she has a familiar spirit.

So she's doing this activity by the means of devils.

And so she's actually able to accomplish stuff with the aid and the help of demons.

So I would say the biblical text bears out that your friend that you're speaking about, that she was given actual knowledge.

Well, the biblical text bears out, of course that's the case, and that they're not just charlatans.

Yeah, it may surprise many of our Reformed listeners who love the writings of A .W.

Pink and highly esteem him as a hero of the faith. Before he was saved,

A .W. Pink was involved in the occult, and he was a member of the

Theosophical Society, and he claimed that he witnessed things that he was certain were not parlor tricks that were from the demonic realm.

And so, therefore, people should be somewhat more hesitant to immediately scoff and write off people who are claiming to have experienced things like that.

And I was actually searching for the word that you clarified last time.

One of the things that Chad Rippinger got correct was the more accurate way to describe the supernatural when we are involving the demonic realm in this discussion.

It's preternatural, is that it? Yeah, preternatural, however someone wants to say it, but yeah.

By the way, I just want to plug Jen Neez's website if anybody wants to look it up, xpsychicsaved .com,

xpsychicsaved .com. There's even going to be a short film released about Jen's life and testimony, and she's just a fascinating woman.

But another example of something that was described by Tucker Carlson.

Now, I know that a lot of people have grown to dislike

Tucker Carlson. I don't, even though I think he's being deceived by dangerous voices, including

Chad Rippinger and others. I still believe that Tucker Carlson is not intentionally deceiving people.

I would love to meet Tucker Carlson. I agree with him, actually, on a lot of political issues, and that may gain me enemies from my own audience.

I sided with Tucker when he was having his exchange with Ted Cruz and also with Mike Huckabee.

I think that Tucker was on the right side of those issues. But having said that,

Tucker believes that he was attacked by a demon in his bed, which left bleeding claw marks on his body.

Is that something that you believe could actually happen from a demon or the devil? Yeah, so it's a difficult question to answer in the sense that it's a spiritual being interacting with the physical world.

And how does that happen? And I don't really have an answer for that.

I don't know how an immaterial being interacts with the physical world. I have an immaterial portion of myself, my soul, right?

And I have a material portion of myself, my body. I don't know how my soul interacts with my body, and I don't know how my body interacts with my soul.

I just know that it does. And my immaterial portion is able to make my body go.

I don't know how an immaterial soul makes my physical body go, but I know that that's the case.

And then you see in the pages of Scripture, these immaterial beings, angels and demons, interacting with the physical world, not just having the appearance of men or not just having the appearance as though they have bodies, but actually interacting with physical stuff, right?

And you do see that throughout the pages of Scripture. I've heard testimony from Reformed, Bible -believing, members in good standing, non -sensationalists,

Christians, that they too have had demonic encounters that left marks.

Demonic encounters in their sleep that left marks. Now, I myself have never seen that.

I myself have not witnessed that. But I've heard from reputable people that they said, okay, this demonic encounter left this mark on my body, similar to what

Tucker Carlson shared. And I have biblical categories through which to think about that, that devils do interact with the physical world.

And again, I don't know how that happens. I don't know how that works, but I think that the Scriptures would bear out that that's a possibility.

Whether or not that really happened in Tucker Carlson's life, I cannot speak to, right?

I can just take a man at his word. Yeah, I don't believe that he's lying about it. He may have come to the wrong conclusion about it, but I don't think he was lying about it.

I just don't get that sense. I mean, obviously, I'm not on mission either, but I don't get the sense that he is intentionally lying to his viewers about stuff like that.

How does, in Genesis 18, as far as the spirit realm interacting with the physical realm, the three angels that were fed by Abraham and they ate food, how does that relate to what you're talking about?

Exactly. That was one of the instances I was thinking about. I was also thinking about the Lord Jesus and his resurrection body, that his resurrection body is a body that is outfitted for the spiritual realm.

I know it is his body resurrected, it's his actual body, but the

Scriptures say it's a spiritual body. Again, I don't know all the ins and outs of what that means, but you see the

Lord Jesus, even in his resurrected body, interact with the physical world. You can handle him, you can touch him, you can hug him, he eats.

In similar fashion, the angels, they don't have bodies, they're spiritual entities, and they're able to eat in Genesis 18.

So those were the examples that I had in my mind when I was speaking to your question.

Okay, let's see here. We have a listener from Lee in Hasbro Heights, New Jersey, and Lee says,

Have you ever had an encounter with somebody who is actually demon -possessed, or at least you believed they were?

Yeah, I think I shared on one of my previous conversations with you about a lady, she was a

Reformed Baptist. She, her husband, her family, they were members in good standing.

Down the road from where I had a counseling center, I was the director of the counseling center, and friends of their pastor, and their pastor said,

I have this bizarre situation, would you be willing to counsel it? Yep, happy to help.

And it turned out the husband was bringing her in for counseling because he had found pentagrams and tarot cards in their attic that she had drawn this power circle.

She was burning sage. She was consorting with devils. And she said, I mean, in my hearing, she said, yes,

I am trying to channel demons. I'm trying to be demon -possessed that I would be able to find the most powerful demon in the area to protect me from greater demons.

She was a very unsettling individual to interact with. The way that she conducted herself with just sheer revulsion at the word of God and staring at me in ways, anytime

I would pray, like not closing her eyes, but staring me down, just the presence of evil.

There was a sense of great evil and opposition. Shortly after counseling ended,

I mean, it was only two sessions that she was willing to meet or that she and her husband were willing to meet. She ended up kidnapping the children and fleeing across state lines.

And I ended up losing contact with that particular couple and that particular situation.

That would be one instance. I've also interacted with others who were incapable.

In counseling, I was working with them, ministering to them, incapable of saying the name

Jesus. They could not formulate the name of Jesus on their lips.

That when doing so, it felt as though they were being choked and strangled. And they said,

I can't explain it. I'm not able to say his name. And now it was short -lived.

It was not longstanding. And that's an illustration that has happened multiple different times, different people.

So would we refer to that as demon possession or would we refer to that as demonization, just kind of a general opposition from devils?

I don't necessarily know the specifics there, but those would be multiple instances that I would point to to say,

I think I was encountering more than somebody who was just struggling with being able to speak.

Now, how did that whole scenario conclude, whatever became of this person?

Which one? The one who wasn't able to formulate the name of Jesus? Yeah, or even include both of them.

Okay, yeah. Well, as far as the lady who kidnapped her children and fled across state lines, I lost track of that story.

So I don't know how that ultimately resulted. And I believe that the pastor ultimately lost track of the woman.

And then as far as the woman who was not able to formulate the name of Jesus, I said, well, if you're not able to pray right now, that's okay.

I'm going to pray for you. And so I just prayed and I asked the Lord to loose her lips, that she would be able to pray, that she would be able to name the name of Christ, that whatever is the cause of that,

Father, would you please intervene? And it was several minutes. It wasn't just like instantaneously or something like that.

She was then able to pray and pray in the name of Christ and was able to resume normal interactions with me.

Wow. Okay. We have

Belle in LaPorte. It's either

LaPorte or LaPorte, Texas.

And Belle says, when you see in Hollywood movies, demoniacs speaking in languages that they had never heard or learned before, is that something that could or does occur in demonic possession or is it just a fictitional product of Hollywood?

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's also similar to getting back to Chad Ruppiger and some of his claims, too, that we were interacting with a couple of times ago.

And as I read the Puritans, they all cite that as indication that this is greater knowledge than the person themselves would have if they find themselves speaking in a language that is unknown to them, that that would be an indication that this is of the other kingdom.

And by this, we don't mean whatever the New Testament writers meant regarding speaking in tongues, right?

We're talking about those who are under the influence of the other kingdom and are speaking in languages unknown to them.

And I myself have never observed this, but again, in Puritan writings, they speak to it that, you know, a woman who did not have much of an education was able to speak fluent

Latin or whatever the case may be. Wow, that is creepy. Now, when you have reached a crossroads with someone who is claiming that they have been assaulted by demons, perhaps claiming to be possessed by demons, or perhaps you have an inclination that they may be possessed by demons, but at the end of the road, you're not certain of any of this.

Where do you go from there? I mean, and perhaps if you have any anecdotal stories about what has occurred, obviously not giving us names of people, but where do you go after that?

You're hitting a brick wall at a certain point where you don't know if this is stuff that is real, if it's made up, or if it's just a misconception, misunderstanding of something that has occurred, etc.

Yeah, it's a good question. It's a question that faces the counselor in the sense that, I mean,

I'm a professor of counseling. That's my main focus, is how do we help people when we're working with them individually, pastoral care, shepherding care, counseling care to the individual?

And so it's a very relevant question. And one of the things I try to do when

I'm teaching my students over the course of a semester on spiritual warfare in Christian counseling is to communicate how complex people are.

People are not simplistic. It's not just like, well, this is a spiritual issue, repent. That's just not how people work.

We're bodies, and bodies influence us as well and make things more difficult.

We're souls, and our souls are of primary importance. And we find ourselves in context, in our environment, and that influences.

We are part of a history in the sense that I was raised in a certain way in an upbringing, so that influences me.

And then we're also living in light of the light spiritual realm, so that the Spirit of God is always at work, and we can't ever forget about that reality.

And we're also living in light of the dark spiritual realms, and that we all find ourselves faced with that reality, whether we know it or not.

So that's just kind of a small taste of people are really complex, and issues are much more complex than just kind of a simplistic reductionism.

Well, it's not just physical or something like that, or just spiritual. So if I find myself hitting a brick wall, like you say, and I don't know, is this possibly of demonic influence or not?

Is this possibly medical? I'm always going to recommend people get good medical care.

And I'm also going to recommend that people always engage in the ordinary means that God has entrusted to us.

Like we don't just send people to doctors and not pray about physical issues. And we also don't just say, well, yeah, it's a demonic issue, and well, then just bear up underneath it or something like that.

Regardless, we always appeal to the word of God and prayer, the means that he's entrusted to us, a community of care, a continue to go up to public worship and draw into all of the blessings the

Lord has given to us. And so I would say, if I'm uncertain, I'm going to draw into that which is certain and common.

Prayer, scripture reading, worship, community of prayer, et cetera. So I love the beauty and simplicity of being able to fall back on the ordinary means that God has given to us.

Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now. And if you would like to join us with your own question, submit it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Italy in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before I return to my fascinating guest, Dr. Keith Evans, and more of our discussion on Satan and his demons, what they can and cannot do.

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Dr.

Keith Evans. chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. We have Heather in Gloversville, New York, who wants to know, have you had any experience studying or have had any interaction with cults and false religions that describe themselves as satanic churches?

I know that even among them, they have different philosophies, some being totally atheistic, believing

Satan is nothing more than a fairy tale, but they utilize that identity just to mock

Christianity, and there are others that truly believe they are worshiping a real being called

Satan. Do you know much about these? How widespread are they? How much harm are they doing to the community?

Yeah, so I've not found myself directly interacting with occultists as far as, like, going to cults or, you know, going to covens or things like that, so I don't have any personal, immediate experience like that.

I have studied Luciferianism. I have studied different disciplines under Satan worship.

I've also interacted with two different Satanists, one who would, you know, see themselves as actually interacting with devils, consorting with devils, and one who just saw it more as, well,

Satan is kind of like this archetype of, yeah, mockery, if you will, and not a real being to be interacted with.

And so I do have that personal interaction. Had lunch with a Satanist one time. That's a bizarre thing, right?

For a Reformed and, you know, Presbyterian pastor and professor to have lunch with a

Satanist. She was very nice. She was very kind. Which type was she?

Was she one that believed in a real being called Satan, or did she just believe it was a mythological thing that they took advantage of mocking just to mock the veracity of the

Scripture? Yeah, so she was more of the mockery of, no,

I don't actually believe that I'm worshiping a being, Satan, but more along the lines of,

I'm interacting with spirit guides and I'm interacting with entities, but there's just the notion of inversion and irony.

That's more along the lines of her flavor of Satanism. Ironically, she was also pro -life, you know, so there's something rather bizarre about all of that.

Did she give a laser for that? I mean, she was just pro -good in this world, you know, in a generic sense, despite taking the moniker of a

Satanist. So there's an irony to it all, right? There's just kind of a laughing at things, a mocking of things.

But as far as how prevalent are they on the books, people who would describe themselves as pagans or occultists, it's roughly 2 % of the

United States population by the last time I checked statistically. I think that number is far lower than actual people engaging with spiritual interactions, reaching into the other realms in paganistic ways, even if they wouldn't view it as a formal religion.

So perhaps it's, you know, 2 % of formally pagans and yet far higher percentage of people who are kind of just grassroots pagans and they don't even know that they are.

And as far as how serious is this, how threatening is it, I think it's quite serious in the sense that the

United States is becoming less and less religious and more and more spiritual.

Well, what is that spirituality that that is a grassroots paganism? And if we really believe as reformed believers that there are true evil presence in the spiritual realms and people are reaching into the spiritual realms in unprescribed ways, by that I mean ways that the

Lord himself has not prescribed, but ways that are forbidden in his word. There are real entities reaching back, right?

Like this isn't just a trifle or a benign thing. The apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10 that to eat at the tables of these false gods is to eat at the tables of demons, that there are real entities behind this false worship not to be trifled with.

So I think it's a very real and present threat as the gospel tide in the

West recedes and we see instead the tide of paganism and occultism, even if people don't know it as such, is coming in.

And so people are laying hold of these things that are forbidden by the scriptures and there are real entities reaching back.

So I think it's a real threat that we should be aware of. Okay, we have

Amethyst in Jupiter, Florida who wants to know, have you ever investigated the true story of the demon possession that apparently the movie

The Exorcist was based upon? No, I've not actually researched it as a scholar.

That wasn't part of my scholarship. So I'm more studying, you know, older literature, the

Puritans, and seeking to reclaim what we've lost over the past 500 years of church history.

Now just as a regular Joe, right, not as a scholar, but I heard about the real story that undergirds the story of The Exorcist.

And so yeah, based on true events, but I didn't delve much beyond, you know, Wikipedia level just kind of interest, knowledge, so I can't really speak to that.

Certainly not as a scholar. Now being a Amityville boy,

I was born and raised in Amityville, Long Island, where the Amityville horror got its start.

I used to immediately dismiss the

Amityville horror story when it came out. By the way, one of my friends in grammar school,

Mark DeFeo, was one of the murder victims killed by his oldest brother,

Ronald. He murdered his parents and all of his siblings. That happened about 10 minutes or less from my home where I was raised.

And my brother at the time was dating a girl in high school who was a maid at the

DeFeo home, and her mother was a housekeeper in the DeFeo home. And the story initially was that Ronald DeFeo claimed to be hearing voices from demons compelling him to commit the murders.

He later revealed that his lawyer made up the story and told him to tell that story in order to get a lesser sentence for what's the word

I'm looking for that they use in legal issues, courtrooms, a plea of insanity.

A plea of insanity. But then a book was written by a completely different individual who basically capitalized on a story of a couple who moved into the house after it was empty, after the murders, and they claimed all kinds of bizarre phenomenon and fled the house.

And that's what the movie was actually based upon. Now, I immediately, or you know,

I never really gave it serious consideration that it was real. Most people that I knew in Amityville didn't believe it.

Although working for the highway department, years after that happened, that murder happened, and even after the couple fled the house and the book was written, there were people coming from all over the world to visit that house.

And I worked for the highway department and sometimes had to chase them off the property. But I started to reconsider whether there was a possibility that the family that moved into the house after the murders might have experienced something.

Because I saw a documentary on the Amityville Horror. It was one of the later ones, where one of the step -sons of the man that lived in that home, who hated him, confirmed that he's witnessed some preternatural things going on.

And he connected it with the fact that his stepfather was involved into occultic experimentation.

He read exhaustively on the subject, had a Ouija board, all of that stuff.

And he believed that that phenomenon followed his stepfather wherever he lived.

There were no reports of things like that ever happening in the Amityville Horror house after that.

There have been people living in that home for decades since the 70s that have never experienced anything or never reported anything.

That's a very long -winded way of saying can demons and do demons do things?

They're very often reported as ghost activity, where objects are thrown around a room, furniture is moved around, all kinds of strange stuff like that that very often is not life -threatening, but it's just bizarre, it's weird, and that kind of thing.

Yeah, again, so my area of study was the Puritans, and the Puritans talk about this all the time.

They talk about stuff that sounds like a haunted house. Really?

They actually made the comparison. Well, no, they did not make the modern -day comparison.

They talk about demonized locations or demonized buildings. Oh, so they didn't say haunted house, you were just saying it sounds that way.

Correct. I'm making that modern comparison and saying you read the accounts of things flying around the room, or you read the movement of stuff in these particular locations, and it's like, well, that sounds like poltergeist activity.

And so even as I'm doing a historical dissertation on the

Puritans, I still have footnotes in my dissertation on ghosts, studying of ghosts, haunted houses, even

UFOs and its connection to this area of study that there's a lot of overlap in the bizarre and that which is spooky and odd, there's a lot of overlap with demonology, the study of the demonic.

And so it's fascinating to read the Puritans about these locations, again, that sound like haunted houses when they're talking about demonized locations, what do we do?

And so they're just reading the pages of Scripture and saying, okay, what do we do when we find a location that has been given over to the other kingdom?

And they're saying, first and foremost, don't go there. If you can avoid it, don't engage in that type of activity.

But if the Lord would call us to lay hold of, take dominion of an area that was once given over to the kingdom of darkness, we have examples of that in Scripture.

So when the entire earth was given over to the other kingdom for the sake of judgment, when

Noah and his family were preserved on the ark, what did they do when they are reclaiming that area that's been given over to the other kingdom?

They erect an altar and they worship. But what do we see Abraham doing with regard to the promised land, given over to the other kingdom, but now is to be reclaimed by the kingdom of light, erects an altar and worships.

So too, Jacob, as he finds himself in the promised land. So the Puritans are looking at that and saying, here's how we rightly, according to the ordinary means

God has given us, set a location apart for the kingdom of light. We worship.

And so we engage in the singing of hymns and songs and prayers and they would even invoke

James chapter 5 in parallel fashion to say, call the elders and to pray. This isn't to have an exorcism and exercise the building.

It's, well, let's ask that this area would be reclaimed, if you will, for the kingdom of Christ as opposed to the kingdom of darkness.

And I love that the Puritans talk about this bizarre stuff, like with one breath, right? And then they just normalize it in the next, as far as the ordinary means

God has given to us. The couple whose name was escaping me,

I don't know why, because I've known it for decades, going back to the 70s, but George and Kathy Lutz were the couple who fled the house that would later become infamous as the

Amityville Horror House because of the book based on their alleged story.

But one of the reasons that gave some credibility to the story of the

Lutzes and the preternatural things going on was that the stepson, as I said, hated

George Lutz. And you would think that if he hated this man, because he was physically abused by him and so on, not sexually, but beating him and so on, you would think he would just do anything to discredit him.

He made it up, he was a Charlotte, you know, that kind of thing. He didn't do that, and he also was somebody who was not trying to capitalize on the story.

He remained silent until he was an adult. I think he's only a year younger than I am.

I'm 64. And it was the first documentary he had ever appeared in where he reluctantly finally gave his story about why he believed there were preternatural things going on that were probably demonic, but because of his stepfather's bringing cultic material and stuff into the house.

And, you know, being at least in a hobbyist level a practitioner of the occult.

But anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there. And before we run out of time,

I definitely want you to go over some things, if there are things left that you have not addressed, that are typical misconceptions wrongly held understandings about things that Satan and the demons can do that people are perhaps paralyzed unnecessarily by fears and things like that over things that Satan and the demons will never do to them, and they are convinced that these things may happen.

Are there any things that are common in your experience, misconceptions about this, the abilities of Satan and the demons?

I think that the only misconception I see regarding believers who believe that demonic activity exists, it's setting aside believers who say, no, demonic activity doesn't exist.

There's a lot of misconception there, but I'm setting aside that misconception for a moment. Those who believe that demonic activity exists, the most common misconception

I see is that we should be fearful of demon indwelling.

I try to make a distinction between demonization, the various activities of devils that you see explained in the

Scriptures and the things that we've been talking about today, and then demon indwelling, where somebody is taken over and controlled by devils.

We said in the very first interview I did with you, Chris, that that cannot be experienced by believers.

Believers can only be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. You can't be indwelled by a devil and the

Holy Spirit simultaneously. We draw that from Jesus' teaching on the house being cleaned up and lived in.

We draw that from Jesus' teaching on the binding of the strongman and so forth. There are other passages of Scripture we could point to as well.

Believers can't be demon indwelled, and I see a sense of fear of that possibly taking place, that perhaps

I could be demon indwelled. The examples that you see in the Scripture of people being indwelled by devils are those who are willing agents.

I shared the story of the lady who came to me, she and her husband, that she was seeking out demon possession.

She was seeking out demon indwelling. You see in similar fashion, Judas for instance, he is fully giving himself over to the kingdom of darkness, and completely in accord with the will of the evil one to betray the

Messiah. He knows what he's doing. I mean, Jesus even explicitly states that at the

Last Supper, and what you do, do quickly, and Satan enters into him. There's a complete alignment of wills between Judas and the evil one.

So that would be a misconception that I find even within Reformed believers, that the possibility of maybe this could take place to me.

In the book of Ecclesiastes, seek to find the verse exactly, I think it's

Ecclesiastes 9, I can't remember the exact verse, it talks about all things external or common to the righteous and the wicked alike.

And it's kind of the alternative to Jesus teaching on the rain falling on the righteous and the wicked alike, that the

Lord does good to all, and that takes place to both the righteous and the wicked.

The blessing befalls both the righteous and the wicked. And then in parallel fashion, Ecclesiastes is saying, well, all things external are alike to the righteous and the wicked.

And so it's that which is external, not that which is internal.

And so I do want to make that clear distinction, that believers are not able to be indwelled, and we need not be afraid of that being a possibility.

Well, I'm going to ask you this question now, and you can answer it when we return from my final break.

What about those that claim and profess to be believers, but aren't?

And you have religions that claim to be Christian, that are teaching a false gospel and involved in, as we have described,

Chad Rippiger, the Roman Catholic priest and exorcist, an idolater, and a necromancer.

There are people in those categories that believe they're Christians, and perhaps

I'll have you answer that very the same thing in regard to people like that when we come back from the final break.

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Pastor's Luncheon to be my keynote speaker, and I believe we were talking about sometime in June of 2027, correct?

Oh, no, November. November. October or November 2027 is what we were talking about.

Yes, that's right. Well, I hope that that comes to fruition. I'm really looking forward to that, and I will keep my listeners updated the more information that we have to solidify that, and make sure we can get it on our calendars.

But, as I was saying before the break, you were saying believers have no need to fear of,

I can't remember now how you phrased it, but I think it was something synonymous with demon possession, or demons entering into them.

But what about people who think that they're Christians, but they're really not? They may be nominal Christians, they may be actively involved, even very religious people who are in churches with false

Gospels that claim to be Christians. Yeah, so I think that typically what we see as far as those who have been fully given over to the other kingdom, that there is a willfulness, a aligning of one's will with the other kingdom.

And so that's not going to just happen haphazardly, to be indwelled and overtaken by devils.

Like in the novel The Exorcist, the little girl portrayed by Linda Blair, she did not invite this entity into her heart, that she was just a naive, innocent little girl.

Not innocent in the realm of theology, where you and I Reform folks believe in total depravity, so we don't believe there's any innocent child, in the realm of not inviting the demon into her.

That was just fiction, in your opinion? Well, so as far as demonization is concerned, that's—so

I was trying to distinguish between the various external -type things that people can experience, and I'm saying those external -type molestations and mistreatments and all the different variety of things we've been talking about—these three conversations, demonically instigated dreams, fiery darts, and all these types of things—that can be experienced by believer and unbeliever alike.

And so I was referring to Ecclesiastes 9, 2, and 3, that these external events come to both the righteous and wicked alike.

But as far as being indwelled, like you see in the case of Judas, that's somebody who is aligning their will with the kingdom of darkness.

And so that was the distinction I was trying to make. As far as what's the historical account undergirding the exorcist, there's many fanciful claims in that movie, and undergirding that movie, so I want to be cautious about saying what is and what isn't.

But as far as demonic activity, it is varietal and many.

And perhaps for one last question from the audience, we have

Trevor in Maumelle, or Maumelle—I'm not sure how the folks in Arkansas pronounce that—Maumelle,

Arkansas. Trevor says, What can you warn us about on how not to invite any kind of demonic activity into our lives or homes?

I'll even throw up my own example. I can remember as a kid, my sister -in -law gave me for Christmas of all times a

Ouija board. And I can remember my mother throwing that thing out faster than I could finish unwrapping it.

And as a teenager, I can remember my mother throwing out a

Black Sabbath t -shirt that had 666 on it. And she was freaked out by that.

Now, obviously, even on the surface of having things like that, you're mocking

God by playing with or wearing something like that.

But can those kinds of activities invite demonic activity into your house and into your life?

Yeah, so not in the superstitious type way.

That if we have this item, therefore it comes with demons.

You hear that in charismatic circles. Be careful about the things that you buy at Goodwill.

There might be demons attached. And that's of a superstitious fanciful thought.

Instead, the Puritans talk about how devils love to enshrine a sense of something sacred in these items, like runes and tarot cards and so forth, right?

Like to give the appearance as though they are more significant than they really are.

They're just items. But those items are being used by devils to draw people into superstitious beliefs.

Now, those occultic things, I think, should be conscribed to the fire. We should get rid of them.

We should burn them. When the gospel comes to Ephesus in the book of Acts, and they burn all of their occultic literature and material,

I believe that's the right response. Let's get rid of it. Let's make it gone.

Let's not fraternize with this at all. But as far as it having some superstitious power associated with it, that if we don't get rid of these things, then, you know, somehow devils are attached to these items, that's where the fanciful and superstitious thoughts come in.

Now, we ought to uproot any foothold of the devil. I think we talked about that either last time or the time before, that you see this principle of footholds throughout the

Scripture. That's not a charismatic notion. Ephesians 4, don't let the sun go down on your wrath, don't give the devil a foothold.

You also see 1 Peter 5, be of sound mind, sober -minded, be watchful, your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, 1

Corinthians 7, that we're to engage in regular marital relationships so that we don't give the devil opportunity because of our lack of self -control.

So you see this principle throughout the Scripture that we should be uprooting any foothold.

And so in that sense, occultic literature or material, like, it's not a foothold in the superstitious sense, but it is in the sense of, like, this should be gotten rid of, let's throw it away.

But as far as a final thought on how to protect ourselves from the things of the other kingdom, as our knowledge of the other kingdom grows, then our knowledge of God must grow.

If we ever think that our enemy is more powerful than our good, sovereign, gracious, loving, compassionate, caring

Heavenly Father, we've found ourselves delving into the kingdom of darkness too much, and we've not been meditating on the

Lord and the things of the Lord enough. The other kingdom would love for us to have a spirit of fear. And the

Apostle Paul says, that's not our kingdom. We've not been given to a spirit of fear, but we've been given a spirit of love, power, and self -control.

The Holy Spirits, the Holy Spirit of love, the Holy Spirit of power and self -control, you see the fruit of the spirits mentioned even briefly there.

And so we have a God who is more powerful, more sovereign, more in control, certainly than the evil one.

And I just want to end with 1 John 5, that it says, He who is born of God protects sin, and the evil one does not touch him.

Now you might be hearing from this time together that the evil one has the possibility of touching a whole lot, as far as demonization is concerned.

Everything is overseen by a good and sovereign, merciful, Heavenly Father who doesn't let a single hair of our head fall to the ground without His sovereign permission.

And that's, I believe, what John is getting at there in 1 John 5, that even any touching is by the permission of a good and sovereign

God. Amen. And quickly, does the devil still have these dialogues that he had with God, as he did in the book of Job?

Do you think that those conversations are still going on? You know, it's a fascinating question, and scholarship is divided on that one.

They say that there is some change after the cross, as Revelation 12 says, that he has been thrown down to the earth, and woe to you, earth, and that heaven rejoices that he's been thrown down in some way, that there's some type of change after the crosswork of Christ, that he no longer has the same access that he did that you see in Job 1 and 2.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have the website to find out more about my guest,

Dr. Keith A. Evans. Go to rts .academia

.edu forward slash Keith Evans. That's rts .academia

.edu forward slash Keith Evans. Dr. Evans, it is always a joy to have you on the program.

I look forward to frequent return visits from you, and I'm sure that we can come up with many topics for conversation.

I think we just touched the tip of the iceberg, and I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater