WWUTT 2585 Q&A Joel Osteen is Back, Pastors Peddling Prosperity, A Soft Gospel

Joel Osteen lives in a $10 million mansion. What is the problem with that?

Does he actually teach the gospel? How deceptive is the message that Joel Osteen continues to teach?

The answer's when we understand the text. This is

When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study to help encourage your time in the Word that we may be conformed to the image of Christ.

Tell your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com. Here once again is

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. I think it's been like a month for you or something since you've been on. It's been a long time.

Beginning of March? Probably, I don't know. Were you on before we went on our trip? No, not that time.

So maybe February? It may have been. I don't remember. I can't remember when the last time was you were on.

It's been a minute. Psalm 116. I missed you guys. Psalm 116,

I love the Lord because he has heard my voice and my pleas for mercy because he inclined his ear to me.

Therefore I will call on him as long as I live. The snares of death encompassed me.

The pangs of Sheol laid hold on me. I suffered distress and anguish.

Then I called on the name of the Lord. Oh Lord, I pray deliver my soul.

Gracious is the Lord and righteous. Our God is merciful. The Lord preserves the simple.

When I was brought low, he saved me. Return, oh my soul to your rest for the

Lord has dealt bountifully with you. That was a Psalm we opened one of our church services with recently.

It's one I've been meditating on a lot. We appreciate you listening to when we understand the text.

I think this is our first Friday episode in a while. It's the first one in April. Yes. Well, is it the first Friday in April?

No, it's not, yeah. The third was last week. Yes. And then we had Easter Sunday. Not the third

Friday, but the third. The third, April the third was the first Friday.

Yes. Yeah, and then Easter was April 5th. Correct. And we had our first church service in a new location.

Yes. On April the 5th. That I had to miss. Yeah, that's right, you weren't there. Nope. So we're in a middle school auditorium now.

Yeah. Is where our church is meeting because we've outgrown our building. We hit a record the

Sunday before we moved into the middle school. Yep. So we had, at the end of March, we had the most number of people we've ever had in that building, which is already maxed out.

Right, we had people sitting in the foyer. I mean, not too many as in like, we don't love these people, but we just really loved the people.

Yeah, that's right. And they really loved us. They did. We had people sitting in the foyer.

I think we had like the side door open. So if anybody was like sitting outside, they could hear everything.

Yeah. And yeah, that was our record, was the Sunday right before we moved out of the main building.

Well, we're still in that building because we meet for like Sunday evening services. Yeah. And stuff like that. And Wednesday nights sometimes.

Wednesday nights. But our Sunday morning, we could not fit in our building anymore. Just couldn't.

So we had Easter at a school location and we're gonna be doing that from now on.

So Sunday morning is until, well, I should say until something else opens up.

Right. This is a temporary solution. Hopefully. Not our permanent solution. Yes.

We are still hoping to build. And you've heard us talking about this, I think since we started here in Casa Grande.

I think so, yeah. We've been talking about a building project. But the land that we thought we were gonna get fell through.

So now we're still in search of land. Once again, we've got the blueprints for the building that we wanna build. Yes. We have the architect lined up.

He's just waiting for us to say go. Yes. We don't have the money. But we do have everything drawn up, everything planned out.

We just need the land and we need money for it. Yeah, you know. You know, little things like that.

They'll come eventually. The Lord has always blessed us in so many great ways. Always.

Since we've been here. So it's great to have these people and how much they love each other.

It is the fellowship that we have in our church in the Holy Spirit that we know is what keeps people coming.

Yes. I can't even tell you the number of times I've talked to a pastor in town and I've said something about how we're so full.

We can't fit everybody into our service anymore. Do you know of anything? Or, you know, I might even ask them, can we use your church?

Yeah. If you're not meeting at this time, can we use your building? And the number of times that I had said back to me, it was probably nine out of 10 times that I talked about this.

It was said, well, it sounds like you need to go to two services now. Yeah. And for us, that was a red line.

We were not going to do that. No. Because the fellowship was part of the reason why so many people were coming.

Yes. And now we're going to tell them, sorry, you're fellowshipping too much. I know. Pick which half of the church you want to be with the most.

Oh my goodness. And now we're going to split you in half. For us, we just did not want to do that.

Not yet. I mean, we are not ready to plant another church yet. Yeah. And there was also that, like I would say something online about it and somebody would say, well, it sounds like you're ready to plant another one.

We're still technically a plant. Yes. By the, I mean, by the size of that, we haven't broken the 200 mark yet.

It's not like, not like we're ready to, okay, now congregation. I mean, we did add another member though this week.

We did. Yep. And then I just received, just today I received a new membership testimonies.

Oh, neat. That. I was thinking one that was born into it, you know, but. Oh, that's right.

Okay. You're talking to the new. I was talking literally. The new baby that was born. Okay. The new member.

Yes, right. Because her family is a member. I think we're having, have we had a baby every month this year now in the church?

There was one, no, two born in March. Yeah. Am I thinking two in March? Yeah, I think so.

And now we've had one in April and we're, we have another baby that will be born in May, I think.

Yeah. So yeah, we're, we're growing with people coming in. Yes. And we're people with babies coming out.

Oh my goodness. Sure. Yep. Sure.

That just came out of me like that. Oh dear. I couldn't stop it. It was right there and it, it just came out of my mouth like that.

So. But anyway, your prayers for our church, your support greatly appreciated as we are still trying to find ways that, that we can meet in a location that'd be our spot and we can accommodate all the people that are coming.

Because with us meeting at the, at the middle school, it solves that issue on Sunday morning, but we don't have that space for office or.

If we need to use it during the week for any reason or Wednesday night stuff or anything like that, any

Saturday morning fellowship. And we have to rent the spot. Like I've heard people say that they had to move their church into a school, but it was free.

Like I've heard that testimony just this past week. And I'm like, that's great. That's amazing. That's great for you, but we actually have to pay for this spot.

Yeah, we do. So, you know, there's, there's all things to be considering, which is why we're holding on to the old place too, you know, quite a bit because it's, it's useful still.

Yeah. We still get all the use out of it. So it'd just be nice. One of the homeschool groups.

Spoiled enough to use our own space. There was a homeschool group that met there on Wednesday. So we're still, we're still serving the community in a lot of ways in that building.

Was it not Thursday? No, it was Wednesday. It was Wednesday. Yeah, Wednesday morning. I know, cause I was in my office and then they came in and go, hey, we're here for art class.

And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, great. I'll find something else to do. Anyway, questions.

So on the Friday edition of the broadcast, we take questions from the listeners. We want to talk about our trip here in just a little bit.

Oh yes. Cause there's some people I want to thank who helped us out with that trip. Definitely.

We'll do that toward the end. But in the meantime, on the Friday edition, we take questions from the listeners and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com

or you can send us a voicemail, wwutt .com. I think you still have to do the www .wwutt

.com and then click on the voicemail tab on the menu. I tried to log on to that earlier this week so I could move stuff around on the website.

And what's the name of my provider? I can't remember. It's Weebly. Weebly was down.

Weebly wasn't working. Oh, that's a bummer. So I wasn't able to make any changes this week. But I know, I know

I still got to make some improvements on the website, including getting rid of that www thing.

So you can just get straight to the webpage. Weebly wobbled, huh? Weebly wobbled and it all fell down.

I couldn't help it. I was trying to hold it in, but I couldn't do it anymore. I saw that I have some voicemails and I have not listened to any of them.

So these are just emails. Yeah, I haven't listened to any of them yet. So these are just emails today.

Pastor Gabe, I think it's been a long time since I've seen Joel Osteen's name anywhere, but he's back having been interviewed on Logan and Jake Paul's podcast.

I saw some clips on social media, which I shared to my Facebook page. I thought that most of my friends and family would get a laugh out of them, but to my astonishment, they all defended

Joel and criticized me for being judgmental. Oh. Now, Joel Osteen hasn't gone anywhere.

He's still been around, I guess. Sure. You know, he's not, he was a favorite cable news pastor and cable news just isn't really that big a thing anymore.

Right. So Joel's, I guess, expertise or whatever expertise they think he has, because he's a pastor of one of the largest churches in the country, just isn't -

I mean, there's some expertise in there somewhere. Just isn't relevant for the kind of the podcast world and he probably doesn't do a lot of podcast interviews, but he's still as big as he's ever been.

Lakewood Church is massive. He still comes out with a new book and it becomes a bestseller. He's still, you know, worth a hundred million dollars.

I think it is, lives in a $10 million mansion. Oh my goodness. So nothing about Joel's ever changed. And you'll, you'll hear that too, as I play some of the clips that I've got coming up for you.

He's not matured. Nothing that he's taught has ever changed. It's still the same stuff. I'm sorry, wait, what? I have to listen to clips.

Yep, you got to listen to some clips today. Thanks. We're going to play some. Awesome. So April goes on, when

Joel downplayed his lavish lifestyle in the interview, I pointed out that he lives in a $10 million, 17 ,000 square foot mansion.

Almost every one of my comments was someone saying, what's wrong with that? And when I played the clip of Joel Osteen's softball pitching the gospel, all the comments said that he shared the gospel and I could learn a lesson from him by being less judgmental.

I guess I was naive to think so many people were not so easily fooled by Joel Osteen.

Help me out here. What could I have said to help them see the problems here? Well, I hate to give you my answer here, but the answer is probably not much.

There's not much more you could have said. No. And if they can't see the problems immediately with that, then it's because they like what he's saying.

It's the whole thing in 2 Timothy chapter two, that false teachers will scratch itching ears.

Yeah. And they will keep up for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. They say what they like.

That's why they listen to Joel Osteen. I mean, at the most you can tell them the gospel, the full gospel.

Right, show what Joel missed in what he was sharing about the gospel. Not that that's gonna convince them like, oh, yeah, you're right.

Nothing like that. But just to present the gospel, it's a great opportunity to open that door.

If they don't notice what's missing in that, then that is a perfect opportunity to be like, look, here's the actual gospel.

Yeah, which promises us so much more. Oh, yeah. Than Joel's health and wealth, word, faith, prosperity theology.

Yes. So let me play the very beginning of this interview. So this is kind of the intro to it.

And you'll kind of get a sense of some of the things they end up talking about. Then I'm gonna select various clips. I don't know which ones

April shared on her Facebook page, but they're probably the same clips I saw. Okay. So I'm just gonna grab some of the popular clips that came from this interview.

But here's how this began on the podcast that's called Impulsive. This is not a

Christian podcast, by the way. Oh, okay. They will interview very popular TikTok Christians, but they'll talk about some trashy stuff on this podcast too.

I'm just going off of clips I've seen on social media. Okay. So this is not an endorsement of this particular podcast.

Not a good resource. Especially considering that Joel Osteen is their special guest in this one.

But here we go. Here's the start. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Joel Osteen. Why do you think Gen Z is so interested in Christianity?

They're authentic and they want to find God for themselves. So you pretty much are mogging the other pastors through peace maxing as opposed to cortisol spiking.

I have no idea what you just said. Would you say this is a megachurch? Yeah. Have you seen

Drewski's megachurch sketch? That's funny, you know? You are a wealthy person. Yes.

Where are the Bentleys, the yachts, and the jets? Do you think there's like different area codes in heaven for people that did better?

Really nice houses for a preacher. Then they have like favelas for people like me. And honestly for you, you ain't perfect.

Collaborations. You did a big one with a guy named Kanye. What I see now is not the yay that I knew.

I pray for him. What do you think happens when we die? And when I say we, I mean, what happens when Mike dies? Why me specifically?

Well. Okay, so there's your introduction. There's the teaser to all the points that they're going to talk about.

It definitely drew me in. I'm kind of curious. Yeah. So we'll talk about the one where he answers the question about death, what happens when we die.

And we're also going to consider that clip of him talking about his wealth.

Okay. So let me fast forward to that one. This was the first one I saw, because this was the one that got kind of snipped out and shared everywhere.

Joel Osteen talking about his yachts and his sports cars and his big house, which by the way, he doesn't have a yacht or sports cars.

I don't think. I don't know what he drives, but he doesn't have like, you know, the Jerry Seinfeld garage where it's just like every nice car that's ever been made.

So he kind of downplays his wealth here, but here was the clip. This is the one that was going around.

Where are the Bentleys, the yachts and the jets? Because this is a big place.

I don't know if there's a garage somewhere or some sort of parking spot for the boats. Would you be down to take me in a ride?

Yeah, yeah. In your Bentley after the G650? Yeah, that's right. In my fleet of cars. No, you know what?

People like to make up stuff, but I've never had a, I don't think I've ever sat in a

Ferrari and they showed me pictures of me driving Ferraris and fleets of cars and Joel's got his yachts and jets and stuff, but.

Now, before going on, I will say I think the story about Joel having a yacht,

I think that came from the Babylon Bee. Oh, probably. It was back when,

I can't remember which hurricane it was, 2017 or 18. There was the hurricane that hit Houston and the

Babylon Bee ran an article where they said Joel rides his yacht through the flooded streets of Houston, handing out copies of his book to people.

Funny. So I think that's where the whole yacht rumor came from. But I mean, a yacht is really expensive.

Yes. Even though Joel has a $10 million mansion, I wouldn't just automatically assume he has a yacht.

Right. Because they'll cost more than the $10 million mansion. Yeah. And same with a private jet. I really did think he had a jet, but when

I was researching it, I wasn't able to find any evidence of that. But yeah, still does have the 10 plus million dollar mansion.

Anyway, going on. I never respond to it, I don't do, I never do. Wait, so you have no yachts? I have no yachts.

Wait, wait. I have no jets, I have no cars. Yeah, you only have one jet. I don't have one jet. I've never owned a jet.

I've never owned a yacht or, you know, a fleet of cars or. So let's talk through it.

The ministry here, the church has its value. It's obviously has a ton of people that come in and make donations and there's donations digitally from the outside.

You don't take a salary from the church. I don't take a salary from the church. I've been blessed with book sales and media and other things so I don't have to take a salary.

So I can work here for basically no salary. And I haven't for most of the time.

The 26 years here or so. But, you know, people like to think it's all about money and things like that.

But I'm the ones that want to try to discredit you. But it's no, never taken a salary. God's blessed me.

I mean, Logan, I wrote my first book. My dad would write books, you know, and he's. Now before going on, so he did take a salary from the church.

He just doesn't need to anymore. Okay, I was gonna say, at some point he should have started out with it.

I want to say there was a criticism, came from one of the news outlets that covered him. And this was over a decade ago.

But they were talking about how this guy has a mansion. It was a different mansion than the one that he lives in now.

He lives in a mansion and he takes a salary from the church. So they were criticizing the fact that he was making all these millions off of the books and that the church was also paying him this much money.

I explicitly remember that. It would take some searching to try to find that story again. Probably, yeah.

But I wonder if after that, Joel said, hey, just to alleviate any criticism, why don't

I just not take a salary from the church anymore? Because he didn't need to. Right. And there's been other occasions in which salaries like that have been criticized.

Franklin Graham was receiving a salary. He was receiving a quarter of a million dollar salary.

Well, I better not give amounts because I'm not for sure what the amounts were. But it was a really large salary from the

Billy Graham Association. Okay. And then he was also receiving a salary from Samaritan's Purse.

That got covered in world news. Yeah. So even Christians were gatekeeping

Franklin Graham on that and going, why are you collecting two salaries from two nonprofit organizations?

And so these kinds of things will come out, they'll make the news. That could very well be the reason, or at the time rather, that Joel decided, okay,

I'm just not gonna take a church salary anymore. But he did at one point. I have mixed feelings about that because I think if you're doing the work, then they should honor you with a payment because that's how they give back to you and your time and your efforts and your knowledge.

Well, I'm not, yeah, I'm not criticizing a church paying anybody. The church pays me, so that's not the problem.

But I mean, like a huge amount. I mean, that's between them and what they can afford.

Yeah, it's common among the megachurch pastors to say that I don't take a salary from the church and they get to use that as kind of a bragging point.

Right. And then probably what happened with April, she posts that on Facebook and her family goes, well, he's not collecting a salary from his church.

What are you criticizing? Right. It's the millions of dollars that he gets from his books, which by the way, him collecting millions of dollars from book sales, there's not a problem with that.

Right. If I'm gonna get millions of dollars from selling books, I want it to come to me, not who else is gonna get that money.

It's my book. Right. So I want the money to be mine. It's rather what he prints in those books, that's the problem.

He's peddling heresy. Yes. And people are buying it. And it's everywhere. Exactly, yeah.

And he's using the name of Jesus to push this. The reason why Joel Osteen is so big and so popular is because he's a pastor.

The whole reason Oprah grabbed him is because he's a pastor and preaching something that isn't biblical

Christianity. Right. She wanted to push something that wasn't biblical Christianity because she's the one that's been on her show since the 90s saying things like,

Jesus is not the only way to God, that there are millions of ways to God. Yeah. And that Jesus just wants us to feel good.

He just wants us to be healthy and prosperous. And so that's why she grabs Joel Osteen and platforms him.

And now his - Just to solidify the fact with somebody who has a standing, right?

Standing with God. Yeah, right, right. Look, this guy has, he's a pastor. He has a connection.

He's a direct line to God. Thank you, yes. That's, yeah. And I heard that when I was a hospital chaplain.

Yeah. That is a perception that people have. If a person is a pastor, oh, that guy's closer to God than I am.

So I need to go to that guy because he's gonna get me closer to God. And when I would do this in the hospitals and I would go pray with patients, nurses would say, oh, the pastor's here.

You know, he's close, he's close to God. He'll get you closer to God. And I would often say, you can be as close to God as I am.

It doesn't take a pastor to do that. You just pray to him right now. And that's what I would tell patients when

I would pray with them. It's not because I'm a pastor that you're gonna get to God. It's because you need

Jesus. Yeah. Confess your sins and he will cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Anyway, so we're rabbit trailing on this.

But that's stuff that Joel won't talk about. And you'll hear that as we kind of continue on with these clips. He's even gonna downplay sin.

I don't call myself a sinner and that sort of thing. He'll talk about that here. But let's go on with his explaining his wealth.

Yes. Held 10 ,000 copies and it was great, you know? Well, I wrote my first book and my publisher called me and said they're gonna publish 250 ,000 copies.

I told my wife, Victoria, I said, they're crazy. You know, this was 21 years ago. I said, they're crazy.

They're gonna publish 250 ,000. My dad sold 10 ,000. Well, my first book sold 10 million copies.

That's insane. I couldn't make that happen. How? It is, I guess it just caught on.

You know, it just caught on. I was on TV and stuff. And it was just, some of this I can't explain.

I just, I can't explain. It's the sovereignty of God. I think I'm reaping seeds that my parents have sown, but I couldn't make that up.

It was on the bestseller list for two years. I couldn't make that up. So he's saying that it's the sovereignty of God is how he was able to sell so many books.

He's not wrong. It's true. It's just that he's not selling this many number of books because God is blessing it.

That's not what's going on. Again, coming back to 2 Timothy 4, 3, for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into mids.

So you're talking that early huge bestseller of Joel Osteen's, Your Best Life Now. Jesus wants you to have your best life now.

I don't want my best life now, thank you. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, this is not my best life now.

No, thank you. My best life is yet to come in glory. So anyway, this is the stuff that he peddles that he's getting rich from, that's the problem.

There are pastors out there who will publish sound doctrinal books.

They won't sell 100 million copies. Like how many did he say? 10 million. They won't sell 10 million copies, but an author can be blessed by good sales from that.

The money belongs to him. It's good for him to earn that. You're not gonna hear me sitting here criticizing an author that has a bestselling book and then wants to turn down the money.

Right. That would be silly. Who's gonna get it then, the publisher? I don't know. So it's good that he receives it, but what was in the book and then what's he going to do with that money?

And Joel buys a $10 million mansion with it. Yeah. Now, how can a guy have a $10 million mansion who's a pastor and still be able to convince you of 1

Timothy 3 .3 that he isn't a lover of money? Like one of the requirements, one of the qualifications for a pastor.

I mean, if your house is like open door to people who need a home or who are staying or if it's like, you know, hosting events and whatnot, like you barely live in the home as a home.

Like most of it's just sort of a come and go for people. Well, I think in that case, you still don't need a $10 million mansion.

Well, no, not by any means, but I'm just saying I could see how I could make it work, but no, it's still way too excessive.

You're talking about buying a compound. I am, yes, yes, essentially, yes. I'll buy some land, we'll build some individual houses, that'd be better.

Why not? But it's what he does with the money. Does he live within means that have the appearance of keeping with those qualifications of a pastor, 1

Timothy 3 .3, or as Paul warns Timothy, tell the rich not to trust in riches in 1

Timothy 6. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, 1 Timothy 6 .10, and that verse in context, it's talking about how false teaching results from that love of money.

That's the context. So it's the love of money results in spreading all kinds of false teaching, and that's

Joel Osteen. So that's the problem here. That's crazy. It's just things happening that, well, you know what,

I get paid for my book sales, and this is from Walmart and Target, and then I've written others, and I've got, I'm on serious radio, and they're so, so I'm blessed in outside areas of the church.

None of the donations come to me, and I feel, what greater thing can I feel to think that I can work here, and I don't have to take a salary, and God's blessed me in other ways, and so, and I make good investments.

I love real estate. I love doing things, but it has nothing to do with, but I'm not exorbitant in these, you know,

I don't like that, of course I don't like when people say you're just doing it for the money, and you've got these fleets of cars, and if somebody wants fast, fun cars, that's fine too.

There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not me. Do you, two things. One, does it make you angry when people tell those stories, or did it make you angry, and maybe you're a little bit more peaceful with it now, and two, does it somewhat dictate the purchases that you actually do make?

Like, is there something that you've ever really wanted, like say you wanted to buy a T -Rex head, for example, or a really expensive

Pokemon card, and you didn't do it because you were worried about what people might say?

I can't think of anything off, I'm sure the answer would be yes. I don't know anything right offhand, but the answer, of course, would be yes.

But it didn't stop him from buying a $10 million mansion. I mean, I'm still stuck on the fact that he lives in Houston, correct?

Right, right. Where it's very, very hot and humid. We've lived in East Texas.

That much space requires a lot of air conditioning, and clean, because it gets moldy so fast.

Hiring a house staff? Victoria does not clean that place. Oh my goodness, like, that would be insane.

Like, that alone is just insane. Oh my goodness, okay, I'm sorry,

I digress, but. Like, they're downplaying his wealth here, they're downplaying it. I don't have a fleet of cars,

I don't have jets, and all that, yet you live in a $10 million home. If you have that much money,

I mean, I suppose your way of living would be more than, say, us, in a totally different bracket, pay bracket, but I just don't,

I don't think it's wise to just go and flourish that much money into a home when a home's a home, you know?

I mean, unless he has disabilities, or whatever, and he needs the extra stuff, but he is. But still, you don't need a 17 ,000 square foot.

Very healthy, per se. Yeah, that's a. In a very, you know. Well, he's very Botoxed in this image. Yeah, yeah.

But, like I said, healthy. But really,

I just don't, I don't, we live in a pretty reasonable price place to live to build a home and stuff like that, so it's not like the most expensive place to live.

So he could afford all that on a much smaller scale. Well, he could be more modest, he could be, and he's just not.

And so it's just, all I'm saying is like, this is a contradiction of.

What he's saying? I mean, he's contradicting himself. Like, I don't really live the lavish life.

You're in a $10 million mansion. Okay, okay, I see what you're saying. I'm just trying to say, like, you know, it's not bad to be rich, there's nothing wrong with it.

Sure, there are incredibly wealthy individuals who are Christians. Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yes. This is a man who's a pastor, who has peddled false doctrine to make himself a multi -millionaire.

Right, and then downplays it. Who lives, or is. Like he's an average American. Yeah, right, downplays it.

Like, I don't really live all that. You, at some point, you just have to be honest and say, okay, listen,

I live in a $10 million mansion, but he's trying to downplay all that. I don't really live the rich lifestyle.

I mean, is that considered lying? I think so, yeah. I think so, too. He's trying to come across as humble and modest, and he's not.

You can't be modest living in a house that big. If you've ever seen the pictures of it, it's massive.

I have not seen the pictures of it. Oh, my goodness. I'm just a modest, humble, not with that house, you're not.

Give me a break. Okay, okay, okay. I mean, some of this is subjective. Like, at what point do you get to the size of a house that's like, well, you're not modest anymore?

Oh, that's too much, yeah. I mean, I understand, but this is definitely, like, there's no argument here.

Yeah, this is. I mean, he has to own acreage to have that kind of house. It's actually not.

Really? He doesn't have a huge plot of land. Just a huge house on the plot. Just a huge house on the land that he owns.

Yeah, but in Houston, that's expensive. Oh, yeah. Well, it's, so he bought it for 10 and a half million.

When I was looking at the article about it, that's what he paid for it, but it's valued at 14 million.

Ah, well, there you go. So he's already. He got a steal. He could already make a profit off of it, as it is.

Let me see what the rest of this is, because there's other parts, there are other clips of this we have to go to. But does it make me angry?

You know what? I don't really, I don't pay attention to it. My edit. He can afford to not pay attention to it.

I mean, doesn't he know about it, though? I mean, he knows about it, yeah, because we've been talking about how they'll say he's, he's got a fleet of cars and all this other kind of thing.

It really is not difficult to tune that kind of stuff out. If you're not on social media, like Joel Osteen's not on social media, all of it, like he's got multi -million number of followers on Instagram, on X, on Facebook, millions and millions of followers.

But all that stuff that gets posted there is from the people who are running his social media sites. He's not on there surfing that stuff and responding to those things.

Of course not. Yeah, so he can, it's easy to tune all that out. It's not that complicated. And unless you've got people outside your house just picketing, picketing your house and saying, down with the 10 and a half million dollar house, then he's probably, he probably really doesn't hear a lot of criticism.

He goes to church with tens of thousands of people every Sunday who love him and that's why they're there.

So you can easily live in a certain bubble in which you can tune all of that out.

It's true. It's not that difficult. But it is still, it's good to, it's good for all of us to not be easily offended.

Definitely. We're gonna be hated because we believe the truth. Slow to anger. When Joel Osteen is criticized, it's because he doesn't believe the truth.

He's not sharing the truth. So let's go to a couple of other clips on here. One where he kind of attempts to share the gospel.

Another where he talks about sin. This is, this is where Logan Paul talks about another guest that they've had on the show.

Somebody that we've talked about, Cliff Connectley. I never get his last name right. He's gonna say it here and he probably gets it right better than I do.

But anyway, he's a very TikTok popular evangelist and somebody that actually loves

Joel Osteen and is friends with Ed Young Jr. and has preached at his church. So even the stuff that he shares and the evangelism that he does, we've played clips of him on the program before, is generally problematic.

But here's where Joel and Cliff kind of differ with one another. Okay. And we'll hear some of Joel's theology in the midst of this.

Like we had Cliff Connectley on here. Yeah, yeah. Who's a very, him and his son, Stuart, they're great. Yeah. Very, very well known.

Amazing. Yeah, yeah. And he like sat, well, not where you're sitting, but in the same seat, respectively to where we were at the time, of course.

And he kept saying, you know, I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. That's why, part of the reason, you know,

I'm a Christian because I know my God will forgive me and I ask him for forgiveness. And I just, I kept thinking of those words.

Maybe I took them too literally, but he kept saying like, you know, he is someone who sins. Yes. And he prays for forgiveness and God forgives him.

Do you find yourself in a boat where, yeah, like maybe you aren't always 100 % abiding by the 10 commandments?

Yeah, Logan, I do, but I don't dwell on it much. And I don't mean to sound self -righteous or like I'm perfect, because I'm not, but my mind goes into,

I get up in the morning and say, try to search my heart. God, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing it for the right reason? Am I doing it for the ego or am

I? But when I can come back to that place of peace to say, okay, I believe I'm doing the right thing. Now make mistakes and you've got your wrong thoughts and all that stuff.

But I come back to that place of peace and trust. I don't live from a place of a dirty, rotten sinner.

And I love Cliff and they're amazing, but I don't live from that place. I live from a place that God has made me righteous.

It wasn't what I did. It's what Jesus did on the cross. And so. Now, is that wrong? Half. What do you mean half wrong?

Well, he's got the thoughts and everything, but he doesn't live in there. Right. I'm not a dirty, rotten sinner.

Right. I have the righteousness of Christ. Now, if he believes in Jesus Christ, yes, we're clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

I preach that all the time. Constantly. But we're still sinners. But we are sinners. Because we fall short of the glory of God, which is why we need

Jesus. All the time. Every single day. So first John two, one, little children, I write these things to you that you may not sin.

But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the father, Jesus Christ, the righteous.

The verse that was right before that, the end of chapter one, verse 10, if anyone says that he does not sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

And Joel is just saying that he's approaching this from a different way. So how does he approach this? I just live from a righteous standpoint than the other.

And I don't mean that I'm not born into sin and all that as well, but I don't know. I just, I see it a little,

I don't think for me, not talking about any others, I don't think it's helpful to just say, I'm no good,

I'm unworthy, don't measure up. Well, none of us did.

But when Jesus came, he made us worthy. I've accepted his forgiveness. I still make mistakes and ask for forgiveness, but I live from a

God is pleased with me mentality. And I don't mean that arrogant. And I don't mean I'm perfect, but I think that helps me to know that otherwise, you know what,

I just, I don't know, to me, otherwise it just pushes you down and makes you do worse. So he's trying to approach it from the standpoint of God is only pleased with me.

So I don't do anything bad. Well, he's acknowledging, I still make mistakes. He doesn't really use the word sin.

I still sin, he didn't say that. So I still make mistakes. I still fall short, but I try to approach it from a

God is pleased with me mentality. So he's choosing to focus on the positive, encouraging side rather than what

Paul says in Romans 7, 18, I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh.

And those are present tense verbs. Nothing good dwells in my flesh for I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

It is only by the strength that we are given in Christ, only by his Holy Spirit working through us that we can do anything righteous.

Still in and of ourselves, in our flesh, there is nothing good in us. It is the righteousness of Christ that we've been given that then strengthens us to do what pleases

God because of Christ, not because I do anything that pleases God, but because of Christ's righteousness that has been imputed to me, okay?

So continuing on. It doesn't seem like there's a like exact science to how to be the perfect Christian, which is like kind of where it's like a little interesting.

And I guess the reason I'm harping on that so much is because I think there's humanity, like a lot of humanity in people admitting that they aren't perfect and that far from it.

I think, by the way, that's Cliff's ultimate point. I think he's, this is my opinion, I think he's probably exaggerating a little bit to make people realize it's okay to not be 100%, right?

All the time? Yes. But yeah, like I think his ability to relay that message is obviously effective in its own way.

And I think a lot of people watch him and listen to him and his son and hear the message differently, but ultimately

I think the principles are the same, which is something I really like about everything you're saying today because even before he asked about God, the things you're saying, like the principles make so much sense.

Like even just remove God from the equation for a second, what you're saying is logically makes sense.

Yes, yes. Well, there's different routes for people that need different things and I'll watch

Cliff on the campuses and stuff and they're amazing and phenomenal. It's just, this is what I feel like God's given me, but it is, a big part of it,

Logan, is we're not here because we're perfect. I wouldn't be on this platform or anything.

We all have things we need to improve. And my thing is, am

I better this year than I was five years ago? Am I growing? Am I forgiving more? Am I less judgmental?

Am I better in my relationships? I think that's a big part of it, but not beating myself up just every day saying, you know what,

I'm just this lousy sinner and I can't do anything right. I just come from a different point of view. Now, this is what

Joel has been teaching his entire, I don't know if you call it ministry. Ish.

The whole time he's been a pastor, he's always downplayed sin. That has been the criticism of him from the beginning.

As Michael Horton has said, you don't have to preach heresy. All you have to do is not preach the truth and you get the same result.

Right. And so here is a clip, this is probably 20 years ago. Here's a clip from the news where the news lady who is interviewing him is saying like, aren't you withholding something from people by not preaching about sin and hell?

Okay, listen to this. I don't believe it's my job to go around saying this group is not going to heaven, this group. I mean, I'm not

God. It says the judge not. Do you feel like you're cheating people by not telling them about the hell part?

No, I really don't because it's a different approach. It's not hellfire and brimstone, but I say most people are beaten down enough by life.

They already feel guilty enough. They're not doing what they should do, raising their kids. We can all find reasons. So I want them to come to Lakewood or our meetings and be lifted up to say, you know what?

I may not be perfect, but I'm moving forward. I'm doing better. And I think that motivates you to do better.

That is heresy that will lead people to hell. That right there will lead people to hell.

People already feel beat up and put down and like, oh, I don't do enough and I'm messing up with my kids and never mentions they're sinners headed for hell there.

Doesn't say they just already feel bad. So I'm going to make them feel good. But there are consequences.

Yes. And essentially everything that he said there was I'm going to give them a comfortable seat on their way to hell.

That's what my job is. Make it extra cushy. So not tell them that they're sinners. They're under the judgment of God.

Turn from your sin to the Lord Jesus Christ and live. He outright denies that he will talk about any of that.

I'm not going to talk about hell. Well, then you're not going to preach like Jesus because no one preached about hell more than he did.

No one else in the Bible talked about hell more than he did. And he talked about it so that we won't go there so that you will turn to Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

And that's a message that Joel just won't preach. He never has. So now on that subject, let's go to where he talks about what happens when we die.

So this was kind of the big question that got sectioned out.

And you've probably seen a lot of this clip passing around. So here we go. What happens when we die?

What do you think happens when we die? And when I say we, I mean, what happens when Mike dies?

Well, I mean, specifically. Well, you're a good one. Where's he going? Mike, he's going to go to heaven.

I believe the scripture. Doesn't know anything about him, I guess, unless they were having conversations ahead of time.

But nothing about the guy makes him inherently worthy of heaven. What happens when you die? Well, you're going to go to heaven.

Based on what? That is scary. Yeah. Hey, don't take it from me.

Sorry, we should adapt up on that because I already know you're going to say you can't make that joke, but go ahead, yes. Well, you know, it says to me, when you're absent from the body is to be present with the

Lord. When you know the Lord, I believe, Logan, what the scripture says, that when you know the Lord, you've taken

Jesus as your Savior, believe He's the Son of God, and you received His forgiveness. It's a gift by faith.

It's not how good you are, and well, I wasn't good enough, you know, or I made too many mistakes. I mean, you know,

Cliff does it better than me, the thief on the cross. He couldn't do anything. He just said, you know, can I be with you?

And so it's the grace, you have to receive it. And then I think, you know, the opposite is, there's a hell, there's a separation from God.

I don't know what that is, but. Oh, now he's talking about hell. He actually brings it up.

There's a hell, there's a separation from God. I don't know what that is though. Okay, let's keep going.

If you're separating from God, it's not going to be anything good, so, you know, I believe that, but we were created to go to heaven.

We were, it was made for us, and I believe God gives us all a chance. He calls us and it's an act of faith.

I think sometimes your head, you can't understand it, but it's down in your heart. Jesus, I believe you're the son of God.

And, you know, that's what I believe. So I think about it sometimes too. He brings it up.

I've had my struggles with sin, still do. And by the way, okay, so I was curious about this.

I really don't follow Logan Paul. The, these are the Paul brothers. This guy here is not one of the brothers.

It's Logan and Jake Paul. There was a boxing match that I watched a few months back.

Somebody was fighting Mike Tyson, though he's 60. I can't remember how old Mike Tyson is. I remember that.

Yeah, and it was his brother. So Logan Paul's brother, Jake, who was fighting Mike Tyson. Okay.

So these guys are rascals. You know, they act like jocks. They act like frat boys.

They're known for, across social media, being just troublemakers. Okay. General guys performing great stunts and all this.

It's made them famous. It's made them internet famous. So of course they've got women. They've got a lot of women.

So I'm, when I'm seeing this exchange here, I'm like, I don't really know anything about Logan Paul, but I bet

I can find that this guy is not celibate until marriage or something like that.

And yeah, sure enough, I look it up. He's had plenty of women. The woman that he is married to now, they had a child out of wedlock and then got married.

So these men are not in their lifestyle demonstrating themselves to living

Christian ethics. Okay. So just to give you a background behind these guys that are talking, because like I said in the very beginning, this podcast isn't a

Christian podcast. Right. Not something that I would recommend. So here they're kind of trying to talk about themselves and like, well,

I'm a sinner, but surely I'm still getting to go to heaven. But Joel, of course, doesn't really share the gospel with him.

He softball pitches it, basically makes it sound like to them, you're fine just the way you are right now.

So continuing on. Do you think there's like different area codes in heaven for people that did better in life?

Like tears almost a little bit. So like, there's like really, really nice houses for a preacher who like really was maybe even abstinent or just like really did a great job.

He gets like crazy house with like a fountain and all that stuff. Then they have like, you're still in heaven, but it's like favelas.

You know what I'm saying? Like a little bit of like a more like compacted, like populated neighborhood for people like me.

And honestly, for you ain't perfect. Like there's a chance we, I wouldn't say neighbors, but you could be up the street, maybe up the hill a little bit from me.

I don't think so. I mean, actually maybe at this point. You got the whole, the family and the kids.

Yeah, and I'm pretty wholesome. Yeah, you're pretty wholesome. Yeah, I'll get there. Right? Right? Yeah, a hundred percent.

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Do you think that there's different? I don't know. I've never studied at all. I think that you're going to receive forgiveness.

I've never studied at all? He's a pastor. He's never studied at all. I don't know what that means.

I mean, some of the things he says, he does leave a lot of room for ambiguity. Like, I guess it could mean this, or maybe he means that.

Yeah. Anyway. Forgiveness, and it's going to be a place that's amazing, and that, you know what, it's the grace of God, because all of us have something and plenty of things.

But, you know, it does say you're going to be rewarded for what you've done, and you know, so I think there's part of that.

But I don't understand it all, but I don't think there's going to be different neighborhoods like that.

And this is the way that he has, this is the way he's always, quote unquote, shared the gospel.

He's always said, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it's going to be. I don't understand it. This is the way he's been for decades in the way that he teaches.

I'm so lost on his response. I know, like I said, it's - Most of it was things, and I mean, he talked like how

I try to tell you what tool I need. You know, I'm like, the thingamajig -

The thingamajogger. On the watchamajogger. Yeah, give me that. And I'm just,

I mean, maybe he didn't study the tiers. Maybe that's what he was talking about. But the rest of it is still, all of it's

I don't know, or very much things or something, or very vague words.

And then he like throws in God's grace. Yeah. And I'm like, what was that?

He's trying not to offend them. He doesn't want to say something offensive. Because -

But they're asking. I know. Aren't they asking at a serious level? They are asking, they are seriously asking.

And they're also not pressing on him very hard. Well, sure. Like they're not saying to him, well, Joel, you're not really answering the question here.

He doesn't have to beat him in the mud, but tell him the truth. They're not even holding his feet to the fire.

To give me a straight answer, you just keep saying, I don't know. I don't know what it is, I haven't studied this. Are you serious?

You're a pastor at one of the largest churches in the country, and you don't know? You know, whatever. Now, there is that famous interview that Joel Osteen did with Larry King so many years ago.

How many years ago was this? That was a long time. That was probably about 20 years ago. So he did this interview with Larry King in which

Larry was even more specific than these guys are being. Is a Buddhist gonna go to heaven? Is an atheist gonna go to heaven?

And Joel keeps responding, I don't know. This was a heavily criticized interview.

As you probably remember, you know, a preacher smacking the pulpit and saying, give us some men who know the truth.

Yeah. And Joel doesn't know. So here is that interview. We're going in the way back machine for this one here.

We've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't.

If you believe in Christ, you are going to heaven. And if you don't, no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.

Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between, I believe you have to know Christ, but I think that if you know

Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're gonna have some good works. And I think it's a cop out to say, well,

I'm a Christian, but I don't ever do anything to help anybody. If you're Jewish or Muslim and you don't accept Christ at all.

You know, I just, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know. I think only God. But you believe you have to believe in Christ.

I believe it. They're wrong, aren't they? Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith, this is what

I believe. But I just think that only God can judge a person's heart. I've spent a lot of time in India with my father and you know,

I don't know all about their religion, but I know they love God. And I don't know, I'd have to, you know, I've seen their sincerity.

So I don't know. I know for me and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus, but.

Okay. I mean, what does he preach on? Your best life now. Oh yeah, that's right.

TED Talks. Yeah, it's the motivational, you know, power of positive thinking, word of faith, name it and claim it.

This is the stuff that Joel does. And it's really, it's the same message every time. It is. It's gotta be, if he doesn't know.

I think I watched, there was a period of time once when I was being very critical of Joel Osteen, it could have been about 2010 or 11, somewhere in there, where I just decided, okay,

I'm just gonna watch a bunch of sermons. I went through six. I still remember the number was specifically six.

And I'm going, this is the same sermon. It's the same sermon over and over and over again.

There's nothing different going on. He might change his stories, you know, like the funny stories that he tells or the examples that he gives.

There was one time I heard him give like the same illustration. I don't know how far apart the sermons were. It was the same illustration used more than once.

But he gives the same message again and again. It's just more about how

God loves you the way that you are. You're perfect and wonderful just as you are. He loves you.

Everything is affirmation. Whatever it is that you're doing, God just loves you and he affirms you.

So if you are doing something wicked, then all you need to remember is that God loves you. And apparently

Joel believes - And you do some good things and you get credit for that. Right, you get some, do more good than bad and you're gonna be all right.

Seems to be - That's a different religion. Yeah, exactly. Right, that's not biblical Christianity at all. And here where Larry is saying that, you know, how about a

Buddhist, how about, and Joel says, well, I went to India with my father. I don't know much about their religion, but I know they love

God. I mean, they love a lot of gods. They do. And Joel is basically saying, as long as they are sincere in what they believe, then surely they're gonna go to heaven for that.

Yeah. If they sincerely believe it. And this is a message that comes from atheists as well.

Kevin Smith, who is a movie director, has a movie that I watched in college, would not watch it now, different set of ethics.

But I remember when watching that movie from Kevin Smith, who wrote and directed the film, that one of his characters said, it doesn't matter what you believe, just as long as you have faith.

Kevin Smith's an atheist. Okay. So you have an atheist saying the same message that Joel Osteen is saying right here.

All you have to do is believe and you need to be sincere in that belief. Joss Whedon, some of you are probably familiar with him because he did the

Avengers movie. He's got a movie, there was a movie that he did as well, even long before the

Avengers, in which one of the characters says with his dying breath, I don't care what you believe, just believe it.

And that was like the minister pastor character in the movie that he did. And Joss Whedon, also an atheist.

So this is the theology of atheism that Joel is repeating here as well.

It doesn't matter what you believe, just as long as you believe it sincerely. And I'm not, who am

I to judge? God is the one that's gonna judge. Okay. Well, that's true. He is. True, but he has.

Not just that he's gonna judge in the end, but God already has judged and we read his judgment in the

Bible. Yeah. Now what happens next in this clip is a woman from Phoenix calls, right here in our neighborhood and presses

Joel on how he is a little wishy -washy with his answers.

Okay. Phoenix, Arizona. Hello. Hello, Larry. You're the best. And thank you,

Joel, for your positive messages and your book. I'm wondering though, why you sidestepped

Larry's earlier question about how we get to heaven. The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light, and the only way to the father is through him.

That's not really a message of condemnation, but of truth. Yeah, I would agree with her. I believe that.

So then a Jew is not going to heaven? No. I don't think he can. Well, here's my thing, Larry, is I can't judge somebody's heart, you know?

I don't know. Only God can look at somebody's heart. And so, I don't know. I mean, Larry has this better than Joel does.

Yeah. So a Jew is not gonna go to heaven. Right. If he doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as his savior, then he's not going to heaven.

Right, correct. Now, when Larry had John MacArthur on his program,

John was, you know, right there with all the answers. Right, yeah. You're not going to heaven unless you believe, unless you have faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ, who died for our sins and rose again from the dead. But Joel doesn't even know that, doesn't even mention anything about that.

Well, maybe he knows that, but he sees dollar signs with every negative.

And I'm gonna close with a passage here that kind of illustrates that in a moment. I'm business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn't.

I'm just saying, here's what the Bible teaches. And I'm gonna put my faith in, you know, in Christ. And I just,

I think it's wrong when we go around saying, you know, you're not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not exactly my way. And then he says there,

I just say what the Bible says, but he doesn't. No, he doesn't. He doesn't say what the Bible says. Okay, so I do want to make it clear, just to say it out there.

They, it's not that they can't be saved. They can, and they can be saved on their last breath.

But if they continue on their trajectory, they are believing what they do. No, they are not going to go to heaven.

Right, and we shouldn't put it off. Right, definitely not. As Paul says in 2

Corinthians, today is the day of salvation. Right. I mean, if you have right now the conviction in your heart to turn from your sin into the

Lord Jesus Christ, do it now, because tomorrow, you probably won't have that conviction.

If you go back to your sin and you become comfortable with it again, and you're like, see, I'm not going to get judged for this.

Then you miss that opportunity that you had on that day, feeling that conviction to turn to Christ, and now you never come back to it again.

Yeah. You just convince yourself, as Joel is saying here. Right, as Joel is saying here,

God loves us, and he's the one that's going to judge. Yeah, that's the scary part, is that God is the one that's going to judge.

It reminds me of the meme with everything on fire around the person in the middle sitting on the chair. Yeah. This is fine.

This is fine. I'm just, I'm not going to be the judge. Because you believe your way. I believe my way.

I believe my way with all my heart. But for someone who doesn't share it, it is wrong, isn't it?

Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let God be the judge of that.

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He is swimming. He is swimming. He is backpedaling.

Swimming in it, if you understand what I mean. Yeah. So you make no judgment on anyone. No, but I -

About atheists. No, I just, you know what? I let someone, I'm going to let

God be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell. And I just, again, I present the truth. And I say it every week, you know,

I believe it's a relationship with Jesus. But you know what? I'm not going to go around telling everybody else. If they don't want to believe that, that's going to be their choice.

God's got to look at your own heart. God's got to look at your heart. And only God knows that. I mean, it's all the half -truths.

Yeah. And half -truths aren't going to get you there. Right. I mean, Satan told half -truths to Eve.

Yes. So yeah, it's the devil's doctrine. That's what he teaches. Now in 1

Thessalonians 2, this was the passage I said it was going to come to. Paul says to the Thessalonians, you yourselves know, brothers, that our coming to you was not in vain.

It was not for ourselves. It was not empty or purposeless. We came to you for your benefit, for the glory of God.

Verse two, but though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we had boldness in our

God to declare to you the gospel of God in the midst of much conflict.

For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive.

But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak not to please man, but to please

God who tests our hearts. For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed,

God is witness. And what we've heard from Joel Osteen in this whole hour that we've been doing this has been flattery and greed.

He says the things that people like to hear. He won't say the things that will offend anybody.

That's flattery. And he does this for greed because he's worth a hundred million dollars saying this stuff.

Verse six, nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ, but we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children.

So being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you, not only the gospel of God, but also our own selves because you had become very dear to us.

So Paul coming with the message of the gospel, knowing he was gonna be persecuted for it, that it was even putting his life on the line to deliver it to these people.

You don't see anything like a Joel Osteen lifestyle in the apostle

Paul. You don't hear it in his preaching. You don't hear it in the way that they lived.

So let me go on from there. Verse nine, for you remember brothers, our labor and toil.

We worked night and day that we might not be a burden to any of you while we proclaim to you the gospel of God.

So meaning what? Paul wasn't relying on them to pay his wage so that like, hey, we're here, we've left house and home and everything to be with you guys to share with you the life -saving message of the gospel.

So you need to be taking care of us. You need to put us up and give us bread. Yeah, and all that kind of thing.

He didn't do any of that. They worked for their own wage. Paul is a tent maker, did his job and set an example for them and was not a burden on any of them while they brought to them the gospel of God.

Verse 10, you are witnesses and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.

And that's not what you see in the message and ministry of Joel Osteen. And so April, with your question, what else can you do different?

Well, share this podcast. Yeah, podcast. And you can even share

Thessalonians right there. Read that, 1 Thessalonians 2. Ask them, does this sound like Joel Osteen in any of these clips?

Any of these things that he does? He hasn't changed in 20 years. He hasn't. He's still teaching the same heretical nonsense.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't understand it. Teaching his same old, I don't know. I mean, you would think if you're asking him what's gonna happen to us when we die and he can't answer that question, you would think that would immediately discredit him as well, what a horrible pastor.

Like he can't even tell me what's gonna, like, what about hell? You keep brushing over the hell thing and hell,

I don't know. We've been made to go to heaven. So therefore we're all gonna go to heaven. Apparently he doesn't like being uncomfortable.

Yeah. Well, now what I didn't play in the rest of that interview is they do kind of press

Joel on like, so if a person just rejects God, are they the ones that don't go to heaven?

And then his answer is still, well, I don't know. I mean, ultimately it is up to God.

Sure. That is his baby, his judgment call, if you will.

But at the same time, there is fruit. And when your fruit is not seen.

Or is rotten. Or is rotten. Then you'll know them, you'll know them by their fruit.

Exactly. And that's exactly what Jesus said of teachers. So in Matthew chapter seven, beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You will know them by their fruit. And Joel's fruit stinks. Well, I had some other questions to get to today, but we spent that whole hour talking about just this

Joel Osteen interview. Doing some really irritating. You love torturing me.

Well, I do want to say thank you to some folks. So we took that trip that we went from here in Arizona up into Kansas.

We had a great time with Countryside Bible Church in Meade, Kansas. That was the first church we went to on the trip.

Jonathan Dale and his lovely wife. And of course that great church congregation. Thank you all so much for welcoming us.

Feeding us and the fellowship is just always a blessing. Hope we can spend more time with you next time.

We want to thank also First Baptist Church of Lindale. So we were there the next

Sunday. I wasn't actually planning on going to church there. I wanted to meet with some friends as we were going through, but the kids insisted.

They did. They were like, we want to see our friends. I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. We'll spend some time there.

Sunday was the easiest day to see their friends. Exactly. So, and we thank you for Bob and Wanda.

I know you guys are not asking for thanks, but your gifts to us pretty much funded our trip.

Yeah. Made it possible for us to even make this trip. And then of course we got out to Atlanta and saw my parents, went and visited my dad, which was really hard.

He actually didn't recognize me. He did recognize me. So there's a little something.

He recognized you. I know that was so funny. Well, I've only had the beard for as long as Aria has been alive.

I started growing it out when she was born. That's true. So I've had a beard for 11 years and we've kind of figured out that his mentality and the memories that he's having and what he keeps bringing back to mind are about 20 years old.

And so I wondered before I went, maybe I should shave my beard. Yeah. And sure enough, when

I got there and he's going, when's Gabriel getting here? I'm right here, dad. Yeah. Next visit.

Yeah, next time. So I thought about that, but he recognized you. He did. And he was shocked at how tall

Annie was. Yes. So, and she's not 20. So. No. So yeah, there's still some things in there.

Well, he also remembered that you and I were possibly gonna get a farm about four or five years ago.

Yeah. Oh yeah, it was a little bit longer than that. It's been a while. Six or seven years ago. Yeah. No, no, that's right. It was about five years ago.

Cause we were still in Texas at the time. Oh, that's right. Yeah. So it was about five years ago.

So there was a possibility we were gonna inherit a farm in Kansas. And he actually remembered that.

He brought that up and like, so what's going on with the farm? When are you guys gonna get the farm? Like, oh, wow, dad, that's.

I think we may have talked about that for like a week or two. But for whatever reason, that memory really stuck in his mind.

And he remembered that. Anyway, so for those of you who don't know, my dad has been diagnosed with Lewy body dementia.

Some of you have been praying for him and sure appreciate that. But he declined really fast.

Super fast. So in September, he was telling me that he had been diagnosed with this and we were laughing and joking about it.

It was still my dad. And then by October, he's seeing people in the house that aren't really there.

And he's starting to talk in ways that don't sound like my dad anymore. By November, he was needing to be put into a home because he was getting violent.

And it was actually a safety hazard for my mom. Right, because he got spooked on stuff.

Yeah, he would get scared. He was mad. But he didn't always know who she was. Like he would wake up and it would take him a little bit.

And so he's throwing plates around and slamming on doors trying to get them open.

So it just, it became, the Lewy body just took over him really, really fast.

So now he's having trouble standing and walking around. His words are really garbled and slurred.

They were supposed to start physical therapy to help with the walking around. Yeah, so shortly after we left, they moved him to a new wing and they were gonna start working on him with some physical therapy.

So hopefully that would become an improvement. But yeah, he's in a rough place with his decline.

So we appreciate your prayers on that. One of the things that I asked him when I was there was, dad, do you remember the gospel?

Tried to bring up some biblical things, kind of bring those things back to mind. He talked about the radio station a lot, which he hasn't worked at in over 16 years.

Yeah. And anyway, so different things like that. And it's my hope that remembering the gospel becomes a comfort to him.

Because I know being in that strange place and waking up there every single day is difficult, is complicated.

Especially when you can't remember. Yeah, when you can't remember anything. But continuing to hold fast to Christ, I know that Christ is holding fast to him.

I know that. Even if our mind goes, God doesn't go from us. Amen. But still,

I know it would be a great comfort to him in his situation if he is remembering the gospel and continuing to hold onto those things.

I've wanted to move my parents here, my mom won't. And I understand that. Yeah. So, but yeah, continue to be in prayer for them.

And again, thank you to everybody who made that trip possible for us. Yes, thank you. To be able to do that, yep.

We even, I got Becky a van for Christmas. It was a kind of a late Christmas present.

But it was so we could take this trip. Yes. She could see family, we could visit mine. And we could take one vehicle.

And we could take one vehicle and not two. We couldn't fit in one vehicle anymore. Not since we lost, you know, there was that accident where we lost our van a year and a half ago.

So we're back in a minivan again, thankfully. And that enabled us to take this trip. So, yeah.

And then when we got back, it was just hard for me to get back in the swing of things and get back on the podcast again. And we got sick with everything.

We got sick, yeah. Everything hit us. It was every germ that we picked up in our 4 ,600 mile trip.

Something, I don't know. It definitely, I'm glad that it waited until we got home though.

Yes, right, yeah. Rather than on the road. We didn't get hit with anything on the road. But then the very next day after we got home, our oldest was stomach sick.

So it's like, yeah, thanks, thank you, Lord. That was not while we were on the road. Definitely. I was happy about that.

Well, folks, if you have any questions that you would like to send to us, again, the email address is whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

Voicemail, hopefully we'll be able to get to some voicemails next week. Go to the website, www .wwutt

.com. Click on the voicemail tab, and you can record us a message. W -W -W -W -W -W -W -W.

Five W's. Five W's, U -T -T, W -W -W -W -W -W -W -U -T -T .com.

And as always, we appreciate you. Definitely. I told Becky she had to be on.

My snuffles and all. She was too tired to do it, but she loves you guys. I do. That motivated her.

You motivated her to be on better than I was able to. Not true.

You know, I love staring at your beautiful face. Oh, yes. Yours as well. Very handsome. Let's finish with prayer.

Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for our time, and I pray that we are learning from these things, not just criticizing a false teacher, because it's easy to do, but Joel Osteen really is fooling a lot of people, and there are many, many other false teachers out there that are doing the same.

And so, Lord, I pray that people will see the deceitfulness there, how

Satan uses this message to appeal to people in their flesh, rather than turning people to Christ, away from sin, and to the

Lord Jesus Christ who forgives us of our sin. It is by faith in Jesus that we're forgiven our sin, we are made right with God, and we have eternal life with him.

And that is the only way. John 14, 6, as we heard quoted from that lady in Phoenix. Jesus saying,

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. The only way to have eternal life is faith in Jesus.

He's not one of the ways. We don't share allegiance with him, with our idols, or with our other false ideologies and false religions.

No, it is true devotion to Jesus Christ who gave himself for us, so that when we die, yet shall we live in Christ.

Lead us in paths of righteousness, to therefore live holy and upright and godly lives in the present day.