The Mark of God's Presence in a Church - 2. Spiritual Songs — Santosh Poonen

Good morning, family. It's good to be with you all together. A couple weeks ago, I was sharing about some marks of the presence of God in a church, and I thought I would continue along those lines. And before I do that, though, I wanted to share a little about why I felt the burden to do this.

It might seem a little doctrinal or maybe a little advanced even for some of our children, perhaps. But children, I want you to know, if you could listen to me for a minute here, or I hope you'll listen until I'm done speaking.

But just so you know, our goal in sharing, whether it's the longer message, the shorter messages, or even the sharing time, is for what you hear to be understandable, for Jesus to be relatable to every one of us.

If you can understand the English language, we want to speak in as simple and plain a way as possible. I remember many years ago, my dad gave me a piece of advice I've never forgotten. This was long before I had any or realized what my gifts were in ministry or anything like that.

But he said, Santosh, if the Lord ever wants to use you, you'll face two choices, either to impress people or to bless them, one or the other. You can either choose to impress people with your knowledge, your ability to speak, things like that, or bless them.

And he's shown me a tremendous example in that. He's always sought to speak in as simple a way as possible, unimpressive to the world, even if necessary, repeating something, a message that's already been preached.

Not because there's no fresh revelation, but because there's a connection with God that's not seeking to be even the slightest bit affected by what people think about it. And when we seek to be more filled with the Holy Spirit, we become more, I believe, reverentially in tune with what God's purpose for His Church is.

And we taste a little bit of the spirit that Frederick Faber had as a Catholic monk in the 1500s, in that last hymn we sang. So we want to speak in as simple a way as possible. And the reason I felt the burden to share about what I see as marks of the presence of God in the Church, we talked about prophecy two weeks ago, is because we seek to set that as a path for us as a Church as well.

And the principles that we talk about, and specifically in this context of these two messages, two weeks ago and today, the principles I talk about in those messages are why we do certain things the way we do in our Church, that many others in Christendom may not understand.

Certain practices and things we do, not just because it's some nice thing to do, or some human being came up with the tradition, or anything like that. We see the principle in God's Word, for example, as it pertains to prophecy, and guidance He's given us in His Word pertaining to prophecy.

And we seek to obey it, without trying to meander around it. Meander is a big word. Without trying to twist our way around it, because the rest of Christendom has twisted its way around it, or large portions of it.

We seek to simply obey God's Word. And so that's true about prophecy. And quite likely, children, for many of you, the Lord will take you somewhere else. And you will have to decide what kind of a Church you want to be a part of.

Right now, you don't have that choice, like I didn't for 18 years. I went to the church meetings that my parents took me to. That's where I was. At the age of 18, I came here to the United States, and I had to make a choice, what I was going to do, what kind of a church I was going to become a part of.

And I wandered a little bit in Christendom for a few years, actually. And ultimately, the Lord planted some seeds and reminders of things I'd heard, principles I'd heard when I was your age. And that's why I have a burden to plant some of those seeds in your hearts.

Because I believe we can plant those seeds in your hearts, not we, but the Holy Spirit can plant those seeds in your hearts through us, even at a very young age, that when you're 21, you'll remember and reflect on, and hopefully will help you make the decision you need to make about the kind of church you want to be a part of.

In my case, I made that decision, I started to make that decision when I was about 27 or so, after 9 years of, I would say, wandering spiritually. As a Christian, but as a religious Christian, inside I was full of dead men's bones.

That's exactly who Jesus described the Pharisees to be. And that journey ultimately brought me here. None of you were here at that time. But I see now why the Lord brought me here, for the work that He's doing in our midst, and extending even outside of this building quite amazingly.

So I have that same burden for my own children, but for every child in this church that God has placed in our care, that quite likely most of you will not still be here 20, 30 years from now. You young girls will marry godly men, maybe some of the boys in this church, I don't know, but the possibility of that, the probability of that is low.

But you'll have to be strong in your faith, in the things you heard, the things that you were shown in Scripture from a young age, to be able to decide what kind of a boy you want to marry. You boys will grow up, and the Lord may take you somewhere else, as He took me thousands of miles away from where I grew up.

And you'll have to decide what you want to do with your life. And I hope, our hope as elders, and I believe it's the hope of all of the adults in this room, that is that you will make the right choices when the time comes.

Choosing Christ and Building a Life That Endures

First of all, to commit your life to Jesus, that's the most important choice. Like I said two weeks ago, if you haven't done it yet, why not today? Don't feel pressured, don't do it just to make your parents happy, but do it sometime, soon.

If you're old enough to, and even right now, if you're thinking, yeah, I need to give my life to Jesus, then just do it. Maybe this afternoon, don't forget about it. Parents, if you are listening and you think you have a child that's, I hope you're discerning enough to sense where they are spiritually, that they're on the cusp, and it could be a crossroads for them, even at a young age.

And an opportunity that they pass by now may not come their way again, or, I don't know. We hope by God's grace that he is long-suffering and patient. But not only that decision, even the decision in terms of what you will do with your life.

In 1 Corinthians 3, the Bible talks about, the Holy Spirit talks about through Paul, that it's possible to lay a foundation on Jesus Christ. This is not what I intended to speak on, so you can look it up some other time.

He talks about it's possible to lay a foundation on Jesus Christ, and yet build something that is completely destroyed at the end. Because it's built from wood, hay, and straw. And everything will be tested through fire.

And as you know, wood, hay, and straw will not make it through fire. So, and Paul says through the Holy Spirit, that that man's life or that woman's life will be preserved because the foundation was Jesus Christ.

So, at least they weren't destroyed because the foundation was on Jesus Christ. But would you want to be in heaven, that you made it through the fire, but everything that you invested your life in was burned up because it was wood, hay, and straw.

And for many years now, I've made it a goal of my life that everything I do is gold, silver, and precious stones. It's for the glory of God alone, not for anything for myself. So, the additional decisions you make, even after you decide to follow Jesus, are also important.

Such as, who you will get married to, speaking primarily to children now, and where you will, what kind of a job you will take, where you will live, why you will choose to live in that town, is there local fellowship in that town that you can be a part of, and be a part of God's kingdom.

Seek God's kingdom first, children, seek God's kingdom first, and He will take care of everything else that you need in life. So, we want you to understand these things as well, these principles, so that when you then go to another town, because God takes you there for work or school, or for whatever, as a missionary, maybe a few cities down the road, we're all missionaries, and the Lord takes you there so that you know, based on the principles we have tried to the best of our ability to show you in God's Word, you know what gold and silver and precious stones look like, looks like.

Discerning Soulishness From Spiritual Reality

So, prophecy, actually on the topic of prophecy, I want to mention something in passing if I could, and that is the power of music in prophecy, and prophetic music actually is very important, because perhaps even more than preaching, music has the ability to sway the soul.

There is soulish preaching, I've listened to, I've heard here and there bits and pieces of soulish preachers who use their soul power, their ability to speak. I mean, if you're a gifted speaker, you could do that with atheism.

You can move a crowd of atheists to tears with something completely ungodly. There are ungodly movies that people cry in. So, don't be fooled by religious soul power any more than you would be by worldly soul power.

Don't allow either of those to move you or to influence you. So, there is soulish preaching, and there's a lot of it in Christendom today. Preachers who seem to be moving in the Holy Spirit, and perhaps they themselves think they are, but our guide is this book.

Our guide of how Jesus preached. Take some time to see how Jesus preached. Read it. It's there in the Gospels. Take some time to read how Peter and Paul preached, and learn through the Scriptures and through knowing God by the Holy Spirit to be able to discern what is soulish and what is spiritual in Christendom today.

Perhaps your greatest enemy, our greatest enemy, is soulishness more than worldliness. We preach a lot about a high standard. We preach against worldliness. We want to have nothing to do with it. But then the danger can be that we don't know the difference between what's spiritual and soulish.

And you know in Hebrews 4 it says that the effect of the Word of God is that it's sharp enough to divide between soul and spirit. See, to divide between worldly and spiritual, I think if you're a relatively new Christian, as a new believer, very quickly the Holy Spirit, your conscience will tell you that thing you did, that's sinful.

So in a sense, the sharpness, let's look at that verse actually since I'm talking about it. The sharpness of the Word of God is not necessarily needed simply to discern between black and white, you can say.

If it's worldly versus spiritual, you don't need the word to be that sharp because it's black and white. You don't have to have, let me give you another example, you don't have to have exceptionally good eyesight to discern between black and white.

That's just, oh that's black, that's white. Very easy to see. And you don't need the sharpness of the teaching of the Word of God to discern between worldliness and spirituality, what's worldly and what's spiritual.

But it says that in Hebrews 4 verse 12, that the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword. He's using an example of something that's really sharp on this earth. Think of a surgeon's scalpel.

I've heard that that knife is so sharp you could just lightly cut and it would cut deep. You don't have to put a lot of pressure. Extremely sharp knife. And the Word of God must be like that that you, it has such an effect that one verse just slices through me.

Not to hurt me, not for my harm but for my good. Why? It goes on to say, piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit. So it's like saying you need good eyesight to distinguish between white and off-white.

To distinguish between white and cream color. My eyesight is getting worse. It's a sign of my aging. I'm starting to not distinguish between white and cream as good as I used to. And spiritually that can happen as well where you listen to a message perhaps or you listen to a song and I just think it sounds spiritual.

The words seem good and all that. But that's where the Word of God in its effectiveness and sharpness is the only thing through the Holy Spirit that can guide us to divide between soul and spirit. And that's why children we are very keen in this church that you know God's Word.

The memory verses will help with that. We picked out memory verses at the beginning of each year that we think will help you in your life. And I'm so blessed that all of you take it seriously to learn and to say your memory verses.

Prophetic Music and the Word of God

So that's soulish. I want to talk about music very briefly because prophetic music can prepare for teaching. I want you to look at a story here very quickly in 2 Kings chapter 3. Why do we, for example, I was saying how these principles that we're showing you, we're not saying that we're perfect.

Please understand that. We see in a mirror darkly, in a glass darkly. But until then we walk in the light that God has given us and we make all of our decisions as elders in the church unanimously, the four of us.

If even one of us has a strong feeling that this is not right, we'll wait. We better wait and move forward in unity, especially when it comes to making decisions about the moving forward of the church, matters related to the church.

And as long as I've been an elder, that's how it's always been for me. In 2 Kings chapter 3, oh so I was saying that even the things we do in the church, why we do certain things the way we do them in the church, has some biblical principle.

We don't want to make a law out of it, but we use it as a guide on how we do everything because we want everything to be pleasing to God. My goal is that by the end of my life it will be only gold, silver and precious stones that I'm holding in my hand.

I feel like I probably still have some wood, hay and straw. I'll be honest with you. I'm trying to find that and get rid of it. I want there to be nothing that's burned up on that day. I want everything that I invested my life in.

There's plenty of things that I've already wasted my life on. Can't get them back. But God overlooks them. He's a loving, merciful God. And if you've wasted time in your life already, He's loving and merciful.

He welcomes you no matter how long it's been. Today is the day of salvation. But not looking backwards, but looking forwards, I want to check everything that I do, everything that I teach my children, everything that we lead this church in.

Examine it in the light of God's Word. This is the fire, as it were, for me now. I remember some years ago I got a vision of me standing in front of a conveyor belt like they have at the airports. You know, you put your bags on there and they send it through an x-ray machine.

And I saw myself, I saw the judgment seat of Christ like this conveyor belt where you put everything in your life on that conveyor belt and then yourself as well. And now it's not an x-ray machine, it's a fire.

And all of a sudden you're faced with the question, what's going to make it? And you start to look at the stuff that you've been bringing with you your whole life. What is that? What you spent your time on?

What you spent your money on? The things you taught your children? The things you thought about during the day? The books you read? The movies you watched? The conversations you had? How you thought about others?

Whether you were kind and long-suffering with others? All of that is going to go through the fire. And I said, Lord, you've given me, you've given us the opportunity now to send everything through the fire before that day.

That's why we have meetings like this. That's why we have God's Word. That's why we speak about judging ourselves. Why? Never judge others, judge yourself. Why? Because God won't hold you accountable for what somebody else sent through the fire, unless they're in your care or if you taught them wrong.

But He'll ask you about your stuff. And I want to be sure that there's nothing that I'm standing in front of that conveyor belt that's not going to make it through. And I have the opportunity now, by God's grace, to send it through the fire because of the Word of God, because of the Holy Spirit, the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit.

So test everything that you invest your spiritual energy on in that fire. And we, one of the reasons that we sing before we have a time of teaching is because we believe that prophetic music can have a way of preparing our hearts to receive God's Word.

And the music itself can be prophetic. And that's why we're not big, we don't sing songs that are very light in words. You know, as you know, sometimes you think, man, there's so many words in all these songs.

There's a reason for that. Because there's a song, the songs we sing, it says singing in Ephesians 5, singing in your psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, not soulish songs, songs that have spiritual content, which means it's not so much about the music and the tune.

It's actually not so much about the tune. Now it's okay to sing about the tune and you could be an old covenant. You know, David was a great musician and there were plenty of musicians in his time who were excellent musicians.

But in the new covenant, you don't see as much of an emphasis on the instruments and the harmonization and all that. And I love music. I spent a lot of time trying to be better at music. But let's not confuse that with what is truly spiritual.

Ultimately, I've come to see that one of the best tests for me of a song is if I take out the music and just read the words. Just take out the music and read the words on black and white and see if it speaks to your heart.

So if you hear a song on the radio, go back and Google it, search for it and look at the words. Because the music will fool you. It'll get your hips swaying and you'll find, why can't this be a good song?

And all of a sudden, you won't pay attention to whether what's being sung is actually biblical. Because the music takes over and a lot of times the music nowadays, the words are so faint in the background you can't even hear it.

Perhaps that's intentional. Doesn't matter what it sounds like. And so really the music ends up sounding like secular music. And sometimes with some Christian songs I've heard, you don't even have to change the words and you could be singing it to a girlfriend or a boyfriend.

It was supposedly written to Jesus. But music has a very powerful ability to influence. And so that's why I wanted to mention that. We're very careful about what kind of music we sing and even what kind of music we listen to in our home.

But as far as it pertains to the church, the music must have a spiritual value and build up. And we especially like it when it's words that we can meditate and it gives us a greater revelation of God.

Even the songs we sang today, for example, I don't pick them. David Lane does. I'm thankful that God leads him in being able to pick out the songs we sing. And I found that often through the working of all of us together, the songs are pertinent to what we plan to share or something like that.

Or guides even what we plan to share. That's how music can be appropriately used. In 2 Kings 3, you read a story here in verse 9. 2 Kings 3 verse 9. Jehoram, the king of Israel, went with the king of Judah and the king of Edom.

And they made a circuit of seven days journey. And there was no water for the army, etc. Let's skip down. Verse 10. Then the king of Israel said, Alas, for the Lord has called these three kings to give them into the hand of Moab.

But Jehoshaphat said, now Jehoshaphat was a godly man, godly king. The king of Israel was not. That's King Jehoram. And so Jehoshaphat, being a God-fearing king, said, Is there not a prophet of the Lord here that we may inquire of the Lord by him?

So Jehoshaphat's kind of finding himself, and it's the second time he ended up in a situation like this, paired up with a king that he probably shouldn't have gone into battle with. The last time it was Ahab.

And so, I don't remember which one came first, but here he is. He's kind of there, got stuck. And he's like, what do we do? So he says, let's find a real prophet of the Lord that we may inquire of the Lord by him.

And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Elisha, the son of Shaphat, is here, who used to pour water on the hands of Elijah. And Elisha was a true prophet. Jehoshaphat said, the word of the Lord is with him.

Jehoshaphat immediately knew this man has the word of God with him. He was Elijah's hand washer. Yes, and he's taken over the mantle from Elijah. Okay, the word of the Lord is with him. So the king of Israel, Jehoshaphat, and the king of Edom went down to him.

Now, Elisha said to the king of Israel, verse 13, what do I have to do with you? He looked at the ungodly king of Israel and says, what are you doing here? You don't fear God. I know what you do in secret, worshiping your idols.

Go to the prophets of your father and to the prophets of your mother. And the king of Israel said to him, no, for the Lord has called these three kings. You know, he's got this religiosity about him. These three kings together to give them into the hand of Moab.

Elisha said, verse 14, as the Lord of hosts lives before whom I stand, were it not that I regard the presence of, look at the fearless man Elisha is. Just like his predecessor Elijah. He says, I don't care that you're the king.

And he tells him in plain words, the only reason I'm going to tell you what the Lord is saying is because I see Jehoshaphat as a God fearing man. And you're lucky he's here. That's what he's telling him.

As the Lord of hosts lives before whom I stand, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat, the king of Judah, I would not look at you or see you. Imagine telling the president that or the king that.

But now he says, but listen, this is what I want you to see. What Elisha says, he's going to listen. He doesn't know. He's caught unawares. They showed up in his house saying, what's the word from the Lord?

And he says, get me a musician, bring me a minstrel. And it came about when the minstrel played that the hand of the Lord came upon Elisha. You see how God, now can you imagine that minstrel mixing in some kind of worldly music and playing some light, fluffy, upbeat music?

I'm not against upbeat songs, but something that was not in tune with the Holy Spirit. And it would kill the spirit right there. I mean, Elisha, this is a matter of life and death for these kings. And Elisha says, Lord, I need a word from you.

And God prompts him, just get a musician to start playing. And the minstrel played and the hand of the Lord came upon him. And he said, thus says the Lord. He got a word from the Lord through it. I've thought about this story often in terms of how our times of praise should be.

And I wanted to share that. I just thought about it as I was sitting down to start there. Because I ask you, family, to join us who lead singing in that. As you sing, pray with us that the Lord will use that time of prayers, not just to sing a nice song and like, oh, it's fun words or reflect on the words, but also say, Lord, you have a purpose.

We're not here just to sing and feel good about what we're singing about. You have a prophetic word, either through the song itself or through the preaching that's to be influenced through this music.

And it could go one way or the other. And we're human. Us elders and other brothers who get up here and speak, we're human. We could be easily, if we're not careful. I'm not so proud as to think that I'll stand and get up here and only speak prophetic words, even if the music is soulish.

No. And I pray that as long as we're here in this church that we'll value, we'll see the value of music, how it could guide the church one way or the other. And I've seen music lead churches in directions that were not of the Holy Spirit.

I've seen it happen over the years. When music became the big thing, and all of a sudden that resulted in a celebrity culture, and Grammy awards, and all these kinds of things. It's very easy to lose the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I never want to judge a single person, but I want to learn from the mistakes of others. You know that saying I've said here often, a foolish man doesn't learn from his own mistakes. A sensible man learns from his own mistakes.

A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. That means he doesn't even have to make the mistake to learn the lesson. That's how we want to be. We don't want to head down a certain path with our music, for example, and five years down the road realize the anointing is gone, the prophetic utterance is gone, and the music's great, but the presence of the Lord is not there.

The word of the Lord is not there. Because the music's the focus. Let's not go down that path. Let's catch it before we get there. And I'm not saying we're headed down there. By God's grace we'll be watchful over it.

But I see how easy it is. And as one who loves music and enjoys it and loves to play instruments and learn new instruments and loves to see children learning instruments and singing, I love to sing. I still recognize music has its place.

And the devil will use music. He has used it already all over Christendom and he'll continue to do it. So be watchful over that. I want to show you another example of singing while I'm here, and that's in the book of Mark.

Singing at the Lord's Supper and Following Christ to the Cross

Mark 14. This is a very tender moment, perhaps one of the most tender moments in the Gospels. And that is when they partook of the Lord's table, the Lord's Supper. Mark 14 verse 22. While they were eating, and this is Jesus and His disciples, just a small group, a picture of the church, a small group of His disciples, those who had left everything to follow Him, committed their lives to Him.

While they were eating, He took some bread and after a blessing He broke it and gave it to them and said, take it, this is my body. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them and they all drank from it.

Now, I don't know if, see in this version of this passage, He tells them what, in this version of the story, He tells them what they just drank after they drank it. You know, with the bread, He said, this is my body and they ate it.

And then it says, I'm not trying to make a big point out of this, by the way, that it says they drank it. Then He said to them, this is my blood. Imagine if you drank something and then Jesus said, this is my blood, their response.

But then they understood it. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Imagine Jesus, you know, the agony we read that later on in Gethsemane, He's so much in anguish. See, we read these words so lightly and we say that when we break bread together, but you know the anguish that was in Jesus' soul at this time.

He still hadn't received an answer from the Father on whether this cup could be passed from Him. He's passing the cup around, but in His heart is still this wrestle. Father, if it's possible, let this cup pass from Me.

And in the midst of that anguish, a few minutes later, the blood's going to come out of His pores, the sweat's going to come out of His pores like blood. That's the extent of His anguish. It's like He had the heart literally burst from within Him.

And in the midst of that, He's saying, truly, I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God. And I sense some excitement in Jesus as He says, this is all about that day when we'll be in heaven together in the presence of my Father, and it will be wonderful.

It's going to be a feast. We read about that in the book of Revelation. I hope you're looking forward to that feast. And then it says, they sang a hymn. You see the tenderness of that moment. And you see how that, Jesus was about to go to the cross, and Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

There He is. Do you think the devil, when Jesus said, hey, let's sing a hymn, do you think the devil could have planted a thought in, let's say, Matthew, Matthew's ear, say, hey, suggest this song. It's got a nice bubbly feel to it.

And, you know, and then I can use that to see if I can somehow get Jesus to avoid the cross. Oh, you don't think he tried it? If he tries it with us, he'll try it with, he tried it with Jesus too. I'm quite certain of it.

That when Jesus said, hey, anybody want to suggest a hymn, the devil quickly planted something and maybe one of them suggested it, a song, a popular Jewish song of their day that, that's sort of, you know, borderline.

And Jesus, because He was a prophet, Jesus, because He was so in tune with the Father, said, no, not that one. Let's sing something else. How about this one? Father, not my will but Thine. Father, I and my cross have taken all to leave and follow Thee.

How about that one? Because that's the right one to sing at this moment. You see how I believe everything that Jesus did was guided by His Father. And if we are to be the body of Christ today, which we are, I believe, an expression of the body of Christ, I pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal to us these little things that the devil will use to just get us a little bit off track.

You know that example that if the compass is off by even one degree, it's just a matter of time before you'll be miles off course. One degree. Now you don't have to increase from one degree to two degree even.

If you stay one degree off course and you refuse to budge from that, but it's not of the Holy Spirit, you stay on that one degree off course, eventually you're going to be miles away from where God wants you to be.

And you wake up one morning and realize the Lord's not here. We're talking about marks of the presence of God in a church. I tell you, dear brothers and sisters, that I observe what's going on in Christendom around me and I see how music is being used by the devil in churches, well-meaning churches, churches that are speaking, preaching from the Bible.

And it grieves me, even this week, to find out about horrible sins that are going on in churches. It's in the news, I'm not going to mention it. You know one thing Jesus never did is He didn't expose the Pharisees by name.

He just talked about them generally. But anyway, I'm not even there. So I don't want to point at anybody, but when I look at all that's going on and preachers who have been preachers for years and then things come up that happened ten years ago or two years ago and that was covered up by their church because this is the celebrity pastor.

We don't want to lose him because then we lose the money and then we lose the building and then all of a sudden, who cares if the Holy Spirit's lost? If Jesus is lost, yeah, we can do without Him. And that's the state of Christendom today and the devil's going to come at us the same way.

We must be watchful. Let me look at that. Maybe I'll only speak about music today and then we'll close. Ephesians chapter 5, prophetic music has the effect of preparing for prophetic teaching. Now I say this because I'm sure all of us listen to music, right?

Christian music, hopefully not bad music. But even Christian music, you can assume that it's good because it's Christian and that's where if you don't know God's Word, you're not using it in the sharpness of God's Word, it's not enough just to say I read my Bible.

Is the Word of God actually sharp enough that you can listen to a song and immediately know that's soulish? Yeah, I know it's not the country song with Jesus' words in it. It's a good sounding song that talks about the love of God and what all He'll do for you and He has a plan and all these things but there's soulishness there.

That's harder to distinguish. I'm telling you myself. If it's the good old fashioned rock and roll, I can catch that pretty quickly. But if it's close, oh I need the sharpness of the Word of God. Ephesians 5, we read in verse 19.

Now let's back up. See first of all he says, wake sleeper. Remember a few weeks ago I read this chapter. I'm going back to this chapter often because he says, wake up sleeper. And the worst part about a sleeper is he doesn't know he's sleeping.

You know that when you're sleeping, you don't know you're sleeping. That's why when you have a dream it feels real. Because you think you're actually there and that lion is actually chasing you or whatever.

And then you wake up and realize oh I was sleeping. But while you're sleeping, you don't know you're sleeping. And that's why he says, verse 14, for this reason. See verse 13, okay I need to go back. I don't know how far back to go.