Calvinism and John 3:16

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Podcast. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for Have You Not Read. With me are Michael Durham, David Kassin, and Chris Giesler. We have a question that's been on the queue for a while and we thought we'd take a shot at it tonight.

The Meaning of John 3:16 in Calvinist and Arminian Debate

It reads, what's the Calvinist understanding of John 3 .16, the favorite go-to for angry Arminians? So that's the question, but we have someone in studio that has met a non-angry Arminian, and so we thought we might start with that anecdote.

Yeah, this.

Is, I'm glad, I'm glad that angry Arminians will use John 3 .16, but also irenic Arminians also will use John 3 .16. That means warm and fuzzy. Yeah. Peaceable. Peaceable. Yeah. Winsome. Winsome. That's a good, that's always a good word.

Winsome Arminians also like John 3 .16. Well, you can find YouTube.

Videos of more Arminian or freewill proponents who will quite literally jump up and down. They will scream into the camera screen with their audience and scream the word, whosoever. Not every fellow believer who is more of the Arminian bent or the freewill bent thinks that Calvinism is a heresy.

Some do, and you can find videos of that as well. My recent interaction was on a plane. I was sitting next to this couple. It was a pastor, probably mid -20s, nice guy. His wife was on his left at the window, and I was in the aisle, and I was just reading, minding my own business, not trying to bother anybody.

But when you're in uniform, oftentimes passengers will talk with you and just, you know, strike up conversation, and he did. He was just a very, very friendly guy, and we just kind of kept going back and forth, and we were talking about this off mic.

Within a few minutes of talking with someone, how many times have you guys thought to yourself, I wonder if this person's a Christian. They just are saying there's just, there's something. There's something there.

There's a spirit there. Things that they said. My wife has done this several times, where she's been talking with someone that said, wait a minute, are you a Christian? Like, yeah. Are you? Yeah. And it's just interesting.

I had mentioned something about loving, you know, where we live, and we're transplants to Oklahoma, and we love it here. I had mentioned, oh, we love where we live. We love our church. We have made some good friends, and then he kind of keyed in on that and says, oh, where do you go to church?

Oh, where do you go to church? And we just were having a nice interaction, and we started asking each other about each other's backgrounds. And I have a Reformed streak in me, although I can't call myself a classical Reformed Baptist in the strict sense.

I have many of those leanings, and you know, I showed in my confession that I keep in my Bible, the 1644, is something that I enjoy. I actually have a copy with me right now. It's actually in my Bible.

I refer to it every so often. It's just something that I enjoy. And he said, well, I'm more on the Arminian side, and he wanted to discuss that. And I talked about the sovereignty of God. I went through Ephesians 1.

He gave some of his verses, and as we were just kind of going back and forth about the gospel itself, he made the comment and said, well, look, whosoever means whosoever. And he thought that was just a coup de gras.

He thought that was truly the nail in the coffin. And that gave me an opportunity to talk about what that word means. What was the Greek word behind whosoever? We would translate it has, and that became a fun discussion.

But we got to read all of John 3 .16 together, and although we reached different conclusions, his patience, his kindness, and his willingness to listen encouraged me to do the same. This guy was a pastor.

He is truly a pastor, loves people. And we were on this plane, I think a total of three hours. We probably talked about two and a half of that. And it was just, the time flew by. So it was a wonderful time of fellowship.

He and his wife were just lovely people. But those are questions that you are going to get asked every so often. So when someone says whosoever, that means whosoever means whosoever. So I'd like us to dive into the text.

What does that word mean in context? Where else it is used in Scripture? And as I said before, if you really want to know what a verse means, look at the verses before it and after it. Read the whole chapter.

Put it in context. What is it really saying? Yeah, that's good.

The term whosoever has a compelling ring to it and a bit of a tradition behind it, especially with its prominence there in one of the most, if not the most famous verse in the Bible. But of course, how often has this verse been rendered in the King James on billboards, bumper stickers, gospel tracks, and even in hymns and songs.

When you first brought up this story about this interaction with this young pastor and the focus on the term whoever or whosoever, I couldn't help but reflect on an older spiritual that was often sung in Baptist churches a long time ago.

And it was one that we sang at the church where I became a Christian and was baptized at a very young age. And the tagline goes whosoever surely meaneth me. And of course, meaneth is what a wonderful King James word.

I'm not sure if meaneth is actually in the King James, but it certainly is of the King's English. But we would sing that whosoever surely meaneth me. And the warmth of that truth is certainly not what we're trying to deny.

We are not trying to deny that somebody, a Christian, a fellow believer, looking at John 3 .16 and seeing this, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We are not saying, now hold on there, just because you believe in Jesus doesn't mean that you get eternal life, which is sometimes the first thing that a non-Calvinist think that Calvinists are saying.

The old spiritual whosoever surely meaneth me can be warmly, and that tagline can really be endorsed by Calvinists and Arminians saying, you know, I believe in Jesus even though I'm not of whatever class or group.

Surely this means that because I am believing in Jesus, I too have eternal life in him. And that warm affirmation is not in question. That's not what we're discussing and talking about. So, David, you spent a good amount of time with him, and it seemed to... where did the disagreement, do you think, principally, where did that.

Discussion? When he said whosoever, that was the kind of culminating part of his argument as I went through Ephesians 1, or I went through other areas, or I went through different chapters in John 6. You know, we talked about being drawn by the Father, we talked about the sheep, you know, that, you know, why do you not believe?

He says, well, he says, you do not believe because you're not my sheep. That's what it says. It does not say, you're not my sheep because you don't believe. So, the causing factor of someone's belief is being one of those sheep.

You know, those are the things that I was discussing with him. And then he said, well, since we're in John, and again, this interaction was about, I think it's maybe about four or five months ago, I'm trying to remember, but when we talked about the gospel and actually sharing the gospel with people, he said, whosoever means whosoever.

That was his final blow. And I really think that what he meant, he implied by whosoever means anyone can. It's whoever, whosoever. You share the gospel with anyone and everyone, so whoever believes, you know, that means everyone could possibly believe.

That was the implication of whosoever means whosoever. Yeah. And I.

Think in these discussions, we had talked about this, a lot of times it can boil down to like word usage and definition and things like that. But then even beyond that, like even in the English language, when the King James was written, whosoever was not used in the way that modern readers read it now.

It meant what, like when we'll get to definitions of pos, it was more that. And it's not talking about this decision or anything like that. It has this kind of overarching whoever, and it's conditional, which we'll get into.

So you can talk about the different words, but I think, like you said, going through the context of the passage as an argument. So even if you stumble over this word, if the passage is an argument of Jesus saying something specific, you're gonna.

Have a harder time getting around that. Oh, absolutely. If your theology turns upon a particular definition of one word, you're on very shaky ground. It's only used that way in, you know, God only has to say something once for it to be important.

But if he uses a word repeatedly throughout the Scriptures, different contexts, then you can kind of get a sense of what that word means. So in this case, os is, if you use strong concordance, you know, it comes out as G3956.

Yeah, that's the root word. Now, there are multiple definitions that could be associated with this. All, any, every, many, thoroughly, whosoever, whatsoever, or the whole. My response to him was, this word is used throughout the Scriptures.

You could translate it every or whole. And he kind of looked at me quizzically and said, well, like, pause, Cosmos, the whole world. You know, we could pull out Colossians 1, 1, 6, and it says, you know, it's used the whole world.

Pause. And he was just kind of, he was, it was interesting. He was just kind of listening. I think he didn't expect me to.

Pull that stuff out. Or maybe in his discipleship, the the emphasis on the original language hasn't been primary. Possibly. And so, but in that, it's important. It's like, hey, what did, what did the Holy Spirit intend with this human author bearing him along, superintending the truth of this word, pause.

God, John is writing this down, faithful record of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, this is an important word. I'm in agreement, and I rejoice in this word as much as you do. What does it mean? You know, and so it's good to point to the original languages, not because they trump the, it's not, it's not something where you pull out the original language and say, well, you know what, the English word there is totally wrong, and I'm gonna give you this Greek word.

You know, it's not that. However, sometimes English words may take a life of their own, given sure, given a backlog of tradition, traditional use, perhaps a great deal of discipleship and teaching has so shifted the semantic focus of that word that, in your mind, it has lost some contact with the original.

Yeah, it would be.

Historically, it would be an anachronism to use a modern definition of a word that was translated, of a Greek word that was translated a couple hundred years ago. Definitions change, and a word has multiple, can have multiple definitions depending on what the context is.

We have to acknowledge that. I just think another.

Example of that is be baptized for the remission of sins, and you could take the word for, and you could say, well, wanted for murder. You're not hiring them to assassinate someone, you're wanting them for something that in the past, versus a young bachelor who's like wanted for a wife.

They want the wife for a specific.

Purpose. And there's good examples of, in that particular example from Acts 238, there's examples of, also in Luke and Acts, the Greek word behind that, ais, being translated in that way, being baptized on account of, or because of.

Now, that's not the most common way that that Greek word is used, but it is used that way. And the question is, okay, well, are the English translators getting that word right or not? Well, you just give an example of the word for, and if you go back and, you know, you can just see that the English translators, you just go back and read their own writings, like the men who translated the King James, the men who translated the ESV, if you go back and look at what they write, and they use the word for in a variety of ways.

And its flexibility matches the flexibility of the Greek word ais. So it's a great word to put there. And this brings us back to something that has been long observed in New Testament scholarship, particularly, but biblical scholarship broadly, that, what you've already said, trying to hinge everything on one word can be very destabilizing.

You really do need to read the context. You really need to see what's going on in the whole. And so when you're looking at this term, ais, or whosoever, the significance of this word is not necessarily always being, you know, read in the context of the chapter or the section of this Gospel of John, or even in the context of the whole Gospel of John.

It's being read in a different context, a doctrinal context, a polemic context, in which whosoever is an important debating battleground with regards to whether or not limited atonement is real and biblical, is irresistible grace true or false, is unconditional election true or false.

And so the word whosoever then takes on a massive amount of significance as a refutation of doctrines of grace or the, you know, the Calvinist doctrines of salvation to, you know, the five points of Calvinism.

And so whosoever becomes significant in that context.

I think that's truly what he meant, that whosoever means whosoever, therefore, it's a refutation of your, the five points that you hold to so dearly.

Exactly. And so in this case, it's... Tongue-in-cheek, of course, but... Well, there's also an underlying argument being made. Yes, yes, yes, you have these well articulated expressions of a system of theology, but with one simple biblical word, we completely undermine all of that.

So don't you see that you're not being biblical? And there's an attraction to that. I would say that that's the instinct. I would always, I would always hesitate to try and dull that instinct. I want people, I want people going to the Scriptures first and primary and holding all systems of theology and doctrine accountable to the Word of God.

I am all about that. I'm totally for that. But this is where in, you know, that one word is not going to stand up on its own. You, if you really are going to go to the Bible to make sure that what you believe is biblical, that's where we've been saying you've got to see how the word is being used in the surrounding context and put it together in the cogent meaning of what the author is saying.

So, for example, different words in verse 16 really pop up. For God, for instance, for God so loved the world, and so, and love and world are all significant, he gave his only begotten Son. And there's gonna be a lot of agreement, you know, and why did you have so much unity with.

This young man? Because we both worship Christ, and we were.

Brothers. You had the same Savior. Yeah. So there's lots of things in here to rejoice in the love of God and the only begotten Son of God that indeed we are saved by faith. And I'm sure he would say saved by faith alone.

I mean... He would. Yeah. Yeah. So whoever believes in him... Faith networks. Yeah. He was all about it. Yeah. Should not perish, but have everlasting life. And we rejoice that we are saved from every specter of death, and we have all the fullness of eternal life in our Savior Jesus Christ.

Lots to agree about here, and we rejoice in, of course, the two words really pop out, I would say that, or three words. The word so, the word world, and the word, as we said, whosoever. Those are the three words that really pop out, and the first one is often taken as emphatic.

And, of course, we would love to put exclamation points, you know, behind the many attributes and graces of God. He is holy, holy, holy. God is love, as John says in his letter, 1 John. We affirm these things.

When it says, for God so loved the world, this is an example of where the word so, in common parlance, is used for emphasis, exclamation point... I'm so tired. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so tired of this misunderstanding about the word so.

But, if you just back up a couple of verses, right, verse 14, and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up. This word, you go back, and again, in the original, it's being used to describe manner, in this manner.

And, I do believe the, it was the Holman Christian Standard Bible, when it first came out, I think it was 2012, when it first came out, it actually translated 1 John, translated John 3 16 in this way.

In this way, God loved the world. Drop the word so altogether. Translated the word as it, as it's intended to be received and read. So, there's that word. Now, David, you've talked about the word, the Greek word behind the word whosoever, as pos, meaning all, every.

And, the example that we found in Colossians 1 6, the gospel has gone to all the world. Yeah. And, what did, what did.

Paul mean by that? You know, it's, it's, it says the whole world. So, it means, it means, you know, for all of the world. It's used other places where, you know, sometimes it's translated everyone. I mean, I did a quick search, and it's just in, in Romans, it says, you know, verse 1 16, and everybody knows this one, for I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So, I think you can take John 3 16 and, and you can do the same thing, that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. It's the exact same thing that, that, that Paul is saying here, you know, this, that the word, you want to know what a word means in Scripture, look to see where else it is used, and you just kind of get, you get a flavor of what that word is kind of intended.

Although, they're, depending on the context, and have slightly different connotations, but, I mean, it just means.

All that you're talking about, you know. I've, yeah, I've been told that all.

Means all, and that's all that it means. Yes. Yes. But it's, if you read it, it's conditional, all. What? Yeah, all of something. All of something. All of.

Something, all of the world, or, you know, verse 18, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. It's every single time, it has a condition or, or something that qualifies it.

What are you talking about? Everything of what? Everyone who is this. All this. Mm-hmm. So,.

In this case, it's attached to a participle, which is the word believes. Now, that whosoever, I think it's a fine translation, it gets at the idea that all the ones believing in him do not perish, shall not perish, will not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, the whosoever is conditional in the sense that it's attached to believing. Mm-hmm. Okay. And I don't think there's gonna be a whole lot.

Of disagreement about that. Right. No. No disagreement? When you're talking about this verse, so, rather than it being on election, I don't see this speaking either way. The Arminian. Or, it's not talking about the choosing or believing, rather, it seems like it's talking about, if you believe, then you, you have eternal life.

That's more security of the believer, rather than talking about.

Election. This is a great example. It doesn't exactly disprove his position,.

It's just not talking about that. Yeah. That's, that's a very good point. This is a good example of why data is not evidence. When you bracket data with a question and an answer, now you have evidence.

Maybe the question and answer are poor, and so you have bad evidence. Okay. But, if you bracket John 3 16 with a question and an answer that goes like this, we say, what is, what is John talking about in the context about eternal life, given Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus?

What are the prospects of salvation for anyone, given what he just said to Nicodemus? Because Nicodemus is the most educated, very religious man, and he's trying to figure out, how do I enter my mother's womb a second time and be born again?

And Jesus, well, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, Nicodemus. Aren't you the teacher of Israel? Don't you know these things? And so, in the context, you could, you could, you could ask the question about John 3 16 to say, what marvelous truth is being brought home here, given what Nicodemus and Jesus have been discussing, and given the issues of sin in man?

Especially because of the following verses, right? And that's a great question. I think you come up with a solid answer. But, if you ask a different question, and you say, given the claims that Jesus didn't die for everybody, how does John 3 16 disprove that?

Okay, well, then you have your answer. Whosoever. See, the term whosoever disproves the claims of Calvinists about the limited atonement of Christ. If you frame the question that way. So, you, it's about how you frame it, the question.

And in, very often in, and what you were having was fellowship, and there was, you know, it was not a formal debate, it's casual in a sense, but it was serious, and also in a sense. But, in those types of conversations, when that topic comes up, very often the habit is to reach for verses that are data points to bring into view, given the current discussion.

And the current discussion is very often abstracted into doctrinal claims. Because, hey, we're not really doing a Bible study right now, we're just encountering somebody who has a different doctrinal system than I do, and we're talking about those things.

And very often scriptures are brought to bear in that context, and so they are framed by those questions and answers that sometimes may be missing the context. Not always, but it's very like, it's more likely that it will happen in those types of scenarios.

So, this is, so good reflection is, when you go through a series, a conversation like that, it is good to reflect on what was said, why did they bring up this verse, did I bring up verses that maybe I was using out of context, and to just kind of meditate and reflect on that.

So, the concern then about John 3 .16 is that an angry Arminian, or a peaceable Arminian, or somebody else, will go to John 3 .16 and say, doesn't this just simply on the face of it disprove limited atonement?

Doesn't this disprove that? Because, as David, you pointed out, he was basically saying, you kind of boiled it down to a nutshell, that he was saying, everyone can. That was his implication. Whosoever means that anyone and everyone can believe and be saved.

Well, what doctrine backstops that? It is the idea that Jesus Christ died on the cross for everybody, for all of our sins, without exception. And the only thing that keeps his atonement from being effectual for them, saving them from hell, is their decision about that,.

That is expressed by faith. It's wrapped up in a nice package. So, when he said whosoever means whosoever, he implied all of that. That everyone has the capacity to believe, the opportunity to believe in one way or another, and Christ made provision for all of them to believe.

But they still have to believe, that's why it says whosoever. And that's a whole lot to put into that word. And I think if you just look to see where else it is used in the New Testament, it.

Doesn't say all that. Yeah, I find, in a sense, when you go and look at the other instances, what you're doing, in a sense, is you were disenchanting. Yes. His use and understanding of that word whosoever, we don't want everyone to be disenchanted with the Bible.

The term all is a wonderful word, and as a Calvinist, I rejoice in the word all. The word all is a beautiful word, and I love it when it shows up in the Bible, and I lean into it and rejoice in what it has to say, because we are reminded time and time again, especially in regards to salvation, that this is talking about all without distinction.

It's not all without exception, and that is clear by, I'm sure, David, you, of course, you share with him from John 6, John 10, Ephesians 1. There's a lot of different places that demonstrate that Jesus Christ did not die for all without exception, but that he died for all without distinction.

What's.

Interesting is that this, our reading of this text, I'm gonna read it again. It says, "...for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever," or whoever, or everyone, or all who believe in him, "...should not perish, but have eternal life.".

So, everyone who believes will not perish and have eternal life. So, I think that's a better reading of the text than the enchanted word, whosoever. It just means everyone who believes will have eternal life.

That doesn't prove my position, and it doesn't disprove his position. Correct. It's not addressing that issue. It just isn't. Correct. So, if we look at the rest of the text, how does this fit into the argument and into the flow of conversation that Jesus is having with Nicodemus?

Yeah. So, if you back up to the.

Beginning, you have a man who is very educated. Nicodemus is described by Jesus as the teacher of Israel. You might imagine everyone looking at Nicodemus as the go-to guy, the Bible answer man, the double doctorate.

He had the PhD in the Doctrine of Divinity, which was where we get the acronym Fuddy-Duddy from. PhD, DD, Fuddy-Duddy. And that's Nicodemus. He had it all. But Jesus tells him, unless you're born again, you can't even see the kingdom of God, which is a very strong thing to say, since Nicodemus is living in Jerusalem and can see the temple and see the priests and sacrifices, see the smoke rise every morning, every evening from the temple, living in the promised land, looking at the fig trees, surveying the mountains, the very same geological formations that Abraham saw.

What Jesus just said to Nicodemus is stunning. Unless you're born again, you can't even see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus, I think, understands that Jesus is coming at him with a metaphor, and so he plays along.

You know, what am I going to do? Enter my mother's womb a second time and be born again? But this is a great opportunity, because Jesus says, verse 5, John 3, most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So this is not of the flesh, but of the Spirit. And he says, do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.

Verse 8, very key, the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So was everyone who was born of the Spirit. Nicodemus was just saying, look, what do I do?

You're saying I can't see the kingdom of God unless I'm born again. So what do I do to be born again? And Jesus says, no. That's what the Spirit does, Nicodemus. That's what the Spirit does. Now, for the readers of the Gospel of John, this is not brand-new information.

It's personalized. It's full of new color and punch and verve. But this is not new information, because we already have that in chapter 1, right? We kind of start off that way. In chapter 1, we hear that about the Son of God, that He is the Word who was with God and who was God from the very beginning, and all things were made through Him.

Nothing was made apart from Him. He made it all. And He has all the life that men need, and He is the light of the world. This is all good news. And when the light of the world comes into those who are in darkness, you'd think that everybody would say, hooray!

Here's the light. We're so tired of this stinking darkness. However, He comes to His own, but His own does not receive Him. Verse 11. He came into the world. The world was made through Him, but the world did not know Him.

Verse 10. Now, verse 12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God. The joyous idea of adoption. Notice, only those who receive Christ are the children of God. God's chosen people are found in Christ.

Children of God, only those who receive Christ are children of God, not just if you're born in Abraham. Big news, verse 12. To those who believe in His name. This clarifies what it means to receive Him.

As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. So, this clarifies how to receive Christ is to believe in His name. Now, verse 13. Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, this theme comes early, and we're getting an expanded, intensified.

Understanding of that in chapter 3. And the gentle rebuke that Jesus gives to Nicodemus is saying, are you the teacher of Israel, and you don't know these things? So, he's referring to something even earlier.

So, John is saying, this is not new information. Correct. And Jesus is telling Nicodemus, this is also not new information. When he says, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, cannot see the kingdom.

It's debatable where it comes from, but what makes sense is that this comes out of Ezekiel 36, which says, I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, and I will cleanse you, and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit.

I will put it within you, and I will remove from the heart of stone from your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh. Saying that, Nicodemus, you should know that this is something that God does. This is the Spirit that is going in you.

He's washing you with that water, which is the Spirit. He's giving you a new heart, which is regeneration. This is something that God does in you. And actually, he doesn't start off with John 3 .16. You need to believe he starts off with John 5.

John 3 .5, you have to be born of water and the Spirit, and you can't attend to the kingdom of God. The wind blows where it wishes. You hear it sound, but you do not know where it comes from, where it goes.

So, it is everyone who is born of the Spirit. This is the third person of the Trinity, absolutely sovereign, and the Holy Spirit blows where he wishes. The will of God.

Born of the will of God, not the will of man, not the will of the flesh, not of blood, not by your heredity, not by your genealogy, not by the will of man or the flesh. The will of God is the will of God expressed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And so, we cannot come to this passage that says, whosoever believes, and then put all the emphasis on individual expression of will by man, as if that's the point that's being made. It's not the point being made.

And why do we know that? Because, very often, the argument is, well, see, John 3 .16 disproves irresistible grace, limited atonement, unconditional election. Why? Because it says, whosoever believes. See, it's that each own person, individual's decision.