Eric Mataxas Promotes the Old ECT Movement, and Mormonism Jumps onto the Front Page

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:30

Well greens welcome to the dividing line back here in Phoenix, Arizona actually using a camera

00:36

I don't really think we need to do that. But riches sold out to it. We spent all this money on cameras

00:41

So I guess we're gonna use them And yes wearing one of my cat shirts later on we will well, you know what?

00:49

I'll put you know what I was gonna do that sort of in between topics, but we'll go ahead and start off with the light stuff and Because we've got some serious serious topics to get to today and It'll be pretty heavy.

01:05

So we'll start with something enjoyable. I Was sent a link to this

01:12

I didn't immediately promote it because it was a bad day it was the day that The announcement was made of voted outcomes death.

01:21

So it didn't seem appropriate Um, but I did go on to YouTube and Comment on the on the video said it was awesome

01:36

You know, I really have to wonder it was this AI done Who's singing this a friend of mine who?

01:45

and you know, he's He's getting up there in years who we have to start keeping on him

01:50

You know get ready to file for the silver alerts when he drives off someplace and gets lost type of a guy and He was insisting that this was

02:00

John John Cooper. I'm like not even not even close.

02:06

No, no but Yeah When I first started watching this

02:12

I'm like what what is this? It starts off so serious and and everything it's it's done by reformed and dangerous and it's three minutes and 46 seconds long but This shirt actually ends up in it.

02:32

So that gives you some idea But yeah, so here Here's our it's not it's not going to be our new theme song it doesn't really work that way

02:44

You know, we could find some use for it somewhere along the line maybe in a funny debate in the future or something haven't had too many funny debates actually, but So Yeah here here.

02:59

I think it's called predestined threads or something like that. But here we go wait

03:12

Alright, I was having to listen to it on this side because somebody else was doing something the sound on the other side so we messed all that up, so we're gonna have to start this all over again and There we go

03:29

You stood your ground in the fiercest debate Defending the truth

03:39

The narrow gate against Romans claim and false prophets

03:47

Word you've defended those scriptures like few others could

07:08

Again super well done I Would like to know it.

07:15

Is that a real person singing? Is that who knows anymore? I Would assume it was but I could be wrong.

07:23

I I love that last little scene there with the little Little kitten with the

07:29

James White shirt on That's pretty cute as rich knows

07:38

I could show you a video of What's like in my house at cat feeding time? But um,

07:44

I think that would scare him even more than it did the first time I saw it so anyways, no, I In answer to the cosmic question

07:54

Honestly, once you buy one thing on Facebook, it seems to know and just keeps throwing those ads at you

08:02

I Think a lot of them or something called Gecko custom,

08:09

I think I think I said where I had the shirts with my kitties made on and I'll I'll have to tell you

08:14

I'm really sad one of those shirts Little guy isn't with us anymore he disappeared a couple days into my last trip and he's gone and Sad about that very very sad about that but anyway gecko custom you can upload pictures of your cats or dogs or I Suppose squirrel could upload pictures of his squirrels monks, whatever

08:41

And they do a really good job with them They're fairly quick and then there's a who ho

08:46

I Think that's where this one came from, but just be prepared. It's gonna be two and a half three months

08:54

It it it comes over on a slow boat from China but They've got like I said, this one's rather striking and everywhere

09:03

I go I get comments and it's it's not boy You're stupid. It's like I love the shirt. So yes, sir

09:10

You Pulled that you pulled the microphone up I was just gonna say this is information that we really don't need getting around to the masses.

09:17

I don't really care No, it's just not not the slightest not the slightest. I don't really care So I'm just answering the cosmic question.

09:25

I mean somebody who puts that amount of effort into asking the question Where do you buy those shirts? who and Gecko custom pretty much now, of course, they were also doing all sorts of my coogies which

09:40

I've been collecting for decades and Half of my coogies the sweaters aren't actually coogies.

09:47

I've mentioned this before their tundras tundras a Canadian Thing I don't really buy any coogies anymore because coogies are they they abandon making them in Australia and they make them in China So it's like never mind.

10:01

I think the tundras are still made in Canada. So that's better than nothing. But anyways

10:06

Yes You know, I I've always liked colorful stuff since I First understood what colors were

10:15

So there you go. If you all just want to wear, you know plain old if you want to look like rich go ahead

10:21

You know, that's Yeah, okay, um, so there's our light -hearted stuff for the for the day

10:31

Um two major topics really important topics that we need to address

10:36

And I when I say we I mean, I'll make a ministries. This is what we do these the topics we've been addressing for Probably the two of them together

10:50

Longer than any other apologetics of ministry in the United States Or in the world that matter

10:56

We've been doing this for 40 some -odd years Mormonism was the very first topic we were addressing and Roman Catholicism came along fairly quickly after that and I don't

11:08

Honestly don't know of anyone who's done more debates Roman Catholic apologists than I have So these are topics that are right down our alley and all of a sudden they're all around us

11:20

Let's start With the Roman Catholic subject We All right,

11:34

I did this has to be addressed carefully I think I saw

11:45

Well, I thought I had put this into another window so I could Play it over here.

11:52

Ah Yes, I did. Okay. There it is I I saw this posted.

12:00

I believe five solos. Yes five solos posted it. Thank you five solos and The comment from five solos says yes

12:11

They're pushing for ecumenism evangelicals and Catholics together is the perfect example a type of thing

12:16

I've been talking about it was a document proposing The process Roman Catholics should unite our religious freedom and morality

12:22

The only problem is it crossed the line and said we're all brothers and sisters in Christ and the differences We have our secondary

12:29

That's exactly what is happening today. The stocking was criticized by both MacArthur and Sproul. It happened in 1994.

12:36

Um, I Don't know how old five solos is but we were a part of this Alpha Omega existed then 94

12:45

I had Already been engaging Roman Catholics has done a number of Debates with Roman Catholics by that time we started in August of 90

12:56

So we had 1 2 3 4 5. Oh, yeah, probably getting up 10 11 12 debates in 94 and so we did a lot of discussion on this

13:08

I think if we somehow went back in the archives, which I think we are scanning our old newsletters and stuff like that So we'll eventually have those but I remember specifically writing articles on ECT If we did

13:24

Programs that you know because the dividing line was off and on during that time period depending on finances and things like that we discussed it and we had to discuss it because Charles Coulson was the one that was pushing

13:39

ECT and then when there was a major confab

13:44

To respond to it. Who are the people that responded to it was RC Sproul John MacArthur and D.

13:52

James Kennedy and Look today Outside of reformed circles

13:59

RC's been gone a while John just died matter weeks ago

14:06

D. James Kennedy Had a massive heart attack I Believe Around 2007 2006 2007 reason

14:20

I say that is I got to go on a cruise around the

14:27

Hawaiian Islands My wife for our 25th wedding anniversary. And the reason I got to go was

14:33

I was one of two people that Replaced D. James Kennedy on the

14:38

Coral Ridge cruise the other person was RC Sproul and So I just go 25 years when you were married and The do that dude, that's how you do math when you're old is like, okay, my anniversary was when what anyway

14:57

So The the big guys that had responded to this stuff

15:05

Aren't around to respond to it now But those of you who listen to this program know

15:11

I've been talking about this from the start and Have said

15:18

We should be watching For this very kind of thing. I Didn't expect it necessarily to come in This way and what

15:29

I mean is Well, you know what? Let me let me talk about that in just a second.

15:34

Let's let's listen to Eric Metaxas here I don't know why

15:40

Eric Metaxas decided to straw man the response to ECT But it is it's a and I'm here to correct it like I said,

15:50

I was a part of this I'm one of the guys that's still fighting this battle and Have been consistently all that time.

16:02

So Yeah, let's um, let's listen to what said here

16:07

I think it's important to understand That this is this movement has received a major charge of energy over the past two weeks

16:20

So let's let's listen to it. He used to work for Chuck Colson.

16:27

He was oh, by the way, it's gonna freak you out and Five solos said it's his software stuff.

16:33

Maybe rich can help him with this, but he said that whenever he grabs a Video something there is a audio video

16:43

Disconnect and so it'll probably drive rich crazy and all the rest you too but just listen close your eyes if you have to whatever one of my heroes and then

16:51

I had the privilege of getting no man Working for him and he did something he started something called evangelicals and Catholics together and he took a lot of heat from I'm You're you're a

17:04

Catholic and I'm an evangelical. He took a lot of heat from Reformed Protestants who basically said no, no, no, no, no, you can't break bread with those, you know, what cultists

17:16

It's a satanic cult and the Pope is the Antichrist and it's it's interesting because I think part of when we're talking about Working -class

17:24

Americans. We're talking about people of faith who don't they don't live in that rarefied world where they're concerned about the

17:31

Westminster Confession versus you know, they they just know there are godless bureaucrats who are devotedly secular who don't understand

17:39

The founders don't understand religious liberty sneer at religious liberty it's now in scare quotes in The New York Times and We all need to kind of band together for a common vision of what it is to be a freedom -loving

17:54

American as the founders were they were not enforcing their faith But they knew that without faith you can't really have virtue and self -government that somehow of course these things have to work together

18:06

Well, they used to work. Okay, so You know what

18:12

I was listening there I I just had to sort of chuckle and go Have you ever read the papal the syllabus of errors

18:20

Eric? Did you know that in the 1800s the Pope identified religious liberty as a heresy as an error?

18:28

Do you know what Roman Catholic integralism is are you you watching the rise of that terminology amongst

18:35

Roman Catholics? Maybe not. Maybe you don't know. I don't know but I just found it sort of funny

18:43

The response to evangelicals of Catholics together was gospel focused as It as it would have to be

18:52

It was not I'm not gonna break bread with those cultists and the

18:57

Pope's the Antichrist that was such a straw man It was so shallow. So there was no reason for it very damaging to anyone's credibility

19:07

Because you can still go back the the videos still exist of What the focus that we all had and that some of us still have?

19:17

What it was? but this type of attitude And I'm gonna actually gonna play something else from Metaxas because he also came out and said if you're talking about Mormonism right now

19:27

You're probably not saved Okay. Well, we'll take a look at that one, too

19:34

But This attitude is getting turbocharged and it's getting turbocharged because of Charlie Kirk's assassination

19:51

And I want to just play for you here This isn't that long. I'm not going to take the time to Put the video up.

20:02

I just want I'll just I'll play the audio for this one But this is

20:09

Andrew Clovett executive producer the Charlie Kirk show on With Tucker Carlson and someone else.

20:15

I don't don't recognize and Andrew Helps us to understand how this ecumenical movement is happening and How it can only go one direction?

20:31

he talks about his own conversion and basically admits He never had any idea

20:39

About church history Reformation gospel issues doesn't understand

20:45

Roman Catholic theology doesn't understand transparentiation doesn't understand The the mark on the soul the priest that allows him to Perform the miracle transparentiation.

20:55

He doesn't understand indulgences. He doesn't understand justification by faith doesn't understand souls couture a papacy any of this stuff because honestly the church is converted in Exists outside the stream of church history in the sense that many of these evangelical churches

21:13

Calvary Chapel type churches they just They don't care That the entirety of their theological language came from someplace else.

21:23

They don't care where it came from They don't care what traditions formed it even as Protestants as non -catholics how tradition formed their language so they don't know and So when people start talking about stuff, they don't know they're like Why y 'all so upset about this stuff?

21:44

It's like well because Eventually you got to deal with this If you're gonna have the

21:51

Lord's Supper then you need to be able to tell people what it is and what it isn't and If you're gonna have any type of consistent unity in your local body same thing

22:08

Same thing you got you got to do the same thing Um You have to be able to answer questions.

22:15

You're gonna have people come in and they're gonna come in with different beliefs and they're gonna ask you questions and you've got to be able to answer and use language that will communicate with them and and honestly so much of this is

22:32

Based upon the predication that the Reformation was a mistake It didn't need to happen it shouldn't have happened would have been better if it hadn't happened

22:40

And that's becoming a really prevalent perspective really prevalent

22:50

Way of thinking and Believe me once you adopt that there's only one direction for you to go

22:57

You're not You a Roman Catholic that encounters that they're not gonna be becoming a

23:03

Protestant The Protestants gonna be being invited to become Roman Catholic. It's it's a one -way street Um, and that's really what's going on.

23:11

So here's here's the conversation just just listen into it here. Let's move me to public schools.

23:17

I Ended up getting saved in college very very very non non -denominational evangelical way to phrase it.

23:23

I got saved in college Radically saved so I had this Catholic background, but then I found myself in a non -denominational setting alone at a school in Seattle Okay, let me just stop just for a second

23:36

Add a Catholic background But I got radically saved in college outside the

23:42

Roman Catholic Church so Was the gospel being preached in the

23:47

Roman Catholic Church? Are you believing the same gospel? That was being preached in the

23:55

Roman Catholic Church Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like there's fundamental differences here

24:01

But so many people that were quote -unquote raised Roman Catholic Were raised completely nominally and they don't understand the theology

24:10

And of course today With the Evolution of Rome you know if you were raised in the

24:21

Roman Catholic Church in the 30s and 40s of The last century which is almost a century ago now

24:28

You knew what you believed you had the Baltimore Catechism You had stuff like that you could give answers as to what the mass is about Foundation of the papacy

24:41

You you understood these things that's not the case anymore Nominal Roman Catholics can be clueless about the key issues the

24:52

Reformation just as nominal Protestants can be clueless of The Reformation as well, so that's

25:03

I think that's what we're hearing here The second least church city in the country, right and I ended up getting radically saved and so But I've never cared about the distinctions.

25:14

I love both. Yeah, I agree You know, I might have petty minor little theological differences. Yes doesn't matter.

25:20

I love them both I don't understand because of my Okay, so petty minor little theological differences the difference as to whether Christ Singular sacrifice perfects those for whom is made or it needs to be repeated over and over again never affects anybody for whom is made

25:41

That's a petty minor theological different how you have peace with God is a

25:47

Petty minor whether the scriptures are sufficient into the cells or you need the papacy the ever -evolving papacy

25:54

Pope Francis Wherever Leo is gonna go now, who knows? You need priests you don't need priests.

26:01

These are penny my no, these are Definitional you can't even start you have to have such a bland

26:10

Watered -down definition of Christianity that you would be that there would be nothing meaningfully left to say and see that's that's the whole thing about the basic, you know the the the mere

26:29

Christianity movement You need to believe in the Trinity though how in the world you get there if the scriptures are insufficient

26:38

I but um Need to believe in the Trinity the death, we're all resurrection of Jesus and pretty much that's it

26:47

You can have every different view of the church every different view of how you get saved every different view of priests and sacraments

26:53

It all just it's just petty little minor things. No, it's not petty little minor things and Our Forefathers understood that but we don't read them anymore

27:07

Do you think that it's probably Calvary Chapel type thing that he was in?

27:13

Do you think they had books from from the Puritans in the library? In the library or the bookstore, no, they've got

27:21

Chuck Smith stuff So we don't we don't read them anymore. So we don't know what they found important and why it's important And if you actually start getting down to applying the

27:35

Christian faith and asking how do these things How do they actually?

27:43

connect With government law morality everything you've got to have answers to these questions and when people start making the gospel itself a petty little thing

28:01

You know, it's it's real easy you you look at the independent fundamentalist Baptist that demand absolute agreement on everything

28:09

I Mean down to the jot and tittle It's really easy to use them and then go well anybody that wants clarity and stuff like that You know that those are those types of people that's not the case and the

28:23

ECT response Was very focused very clear Understood the

28:29

Roman Catholic position addressed issues of scriptural sufficiency Errors in the history of the papacy and really focused upon how does a person have peace with God and Rome Fundamentally answers those questions differently than anyone who follows a biblical

28:50

Gospel that you would read in Romans or Galatians or John or anywhere else that matter

28:57

And so it's this There are a lot of people that start off with this

29:07

Surface level, you know, I got radically saved. What does that mean? What does that mean?

29:14

Where did the where did the terminology you're using even come from? What's its background?

29:20

What do you believe about the supper I Mean baptism the supper that they're sort of they sort of define

29:28

Christian fellowship, right? So what do you believe about that? Well, you know, you can believe whatever you want. Really?

29:35

Did is that what you read in first Corinthians chapter 11? Yeah, whatever you want Do whatever you know, that's that's that's not a new test of understanding

29:45

At all path here. I never cared anyone who focuses on Jesus is my brother.

29:50

That's how I feel Well, that's that's wonderful it isn't that warm and fuzzy So Jehovah's Witnesses talked about Jesus all the time

30:01

So are they your brother? they think Jesus is Michael the Archangel and That he didn't actually rise from the dead

30:10

Because he did not have a spirit to rise from the dead he was recreated as Michael the Archangel So we're just cool right focused on Jesus Maybe there's a reason why the

30:20

New Testament warns us about false Jesus's maybe How about the

30:27

Mormons we're gonna be talking about them in a moment they believe Jesus is Elohim's firstborn spirit child in the pre -existence where Elohim lived on a planet that circles a star named

30:40

Kolob and Elohim was once a man lived on another planet had been exalted the status of Godhood brought his wives with him

30:48

Organized that planet the circle of star named Kolob and began in a body of flesh and bones as his wives always have to engage in sexual intercourse with them to create

30:58

The spirits of everyone who's ever gonna live on earth One of the next born of the spirit children of Elohim is

31:08

Lucifer hence Jesus and Lucifer and us are all spirit brothers and So is this the

31:15

Jesus? That we're talking about as long as hey, they're talking about Jesus Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day

31:21

Saints, right talking about Jesus About the Unitarians. This is a moral teacher Prophet of God, but not

31:29

God himself You know, these are questions that have been answered for a long long time.

31:35

But since no one cares about church history Most people have the idea that well, you know those people back then they were just so narrow -minded in comparison to us

31:46

It's because they had an attention span that was 57 times longer than we have That's how people think now and so we don't have to worry why should we care about What You know people in the past said

32:06

We've we're modern folks and so we can we can get beyond all this and I I agree with you a hundred percent

32:12

And if you let your see it's a little bit like Twitter actually if you think about it too much you end up hating everybody and you

32:20

Miss the commonality between people and the commonality between Christians is Jesus period

32:26

Again that sounds So wise but when you sit back and think about it, it means nothing

32:35

The commonality is Jesus What is the only way for that statement?

32:41

There's only one way that statement can have any meaning at all is if we're agreed about who

32:46

Jesus is and Since the New Testament warns us that there will be those who come and preach a present you a false

32:55

Jesus then we need to know how to identify the true Jesus or there can be no commonality around Jesus and You know if people are gonna be trying to say that you know, here's the beginning of Christian nationalism

33:15

Well, okay Then we need to be prepared to answer questions about what this

33:24

Christian nation Believes and how it's going to practice and guess what what you believe about Christ scriptures the gospel is

33:37

Absolutely Definitional to how you're gonna answer those questions a

33:44

Roman Catholic is going to answer these questions completely differently That's the whole point.

33:51

That's the whole point. You know, how can you say that? I've been doing this for decades Go back and listen to the

33:58

Bible answer man broadcast Timothy Staples staff apologist Catholic answers. Oh, is that around 2000 somewhere around there?

34:05

1999 2000 2001 whatever it was we did Algo will know the date and time and what shirt

34:12

I was wearing but It was not while these no, I don't think

34:17

I don't think I would have been allowed in the studio if I had had a cat shirt on but During that interview, you know,

34:27

I finally nailed it. He didn't want to have to answer this question, but I pushed him I said Tim if you and I are standing outside an abortion clinic

34:35

Someone comes up to us and says what must I do to be saved will you Honestly say right now

34:42

But the answer you will give will be Substantially different than the answer that I will get and it took a while but eventually said yes, and that's the fact

34:54

That's that's the reality and so You can you can try it's people who emote rather than think

35:07

People operate on emotions. We'll hear that and feel good about it all

35:13

That feels it feels so good. I Feel warm and fuzzy now But that's not really an answer.

35:24

It's not gonna hold up over time you cannot build a Consistent Biblical movement now,

35:34

I'll be honest with you For a lot of people today. It's not a matter of biblical movement It's a matter of political movement.

35:43

And once politics becomes your primary focus And your primary answer to the problems of the world

35:52

You're gonna do everything different and the distinctives of the gospel

35:58

Found in the New Testament will have to be sacrificed. They will have to be turned into an optional element maybe for Maybe down the road for super Christians, you know that type of thing can't work that way another reason why

36:15

I've said from the start You can talk about a

36:20

Christian nation But it has to be Christian before it's a Christian nation. You have to have the gospel first You have to have regeneration you have to have the change and when people reject that There you go, so Back to Eric metaxas.

36:40

Um, I Don't understand The straw manning of the response to ECT.

36:47

Maybe maybe he just never bothered to Listen Maybe because he was a big fan, you know working with Chuck Colson.

36:57

No, that's just it's just the Calvinist They're just out there too. And I've seen that happen over and over again. I I cannot tell you how many times

37:04

I Have seen people You know, they'll tell me years later well, you know,

37:12

I hated you because You're a part of this movement and you all believe such -and -so And I'm like, but we never said anything like that Well, that's what everybody in our movement thought you were saying and so we just believed it

37:25

Happens all the time That that could explain the misrepresentation

37:32

But doesn't change the fact it was a misrepresentation and Someone needs to stand up and say to mr.

37:39

Metaxas You need to start doing your homework a little better than you're doing it

37:46

Because that was That was an attack on Sproul MacArthur Kennedy and all the rest of us

37:54

That were actively involved in Seeking to defend

38:00

What evidently you all don't believe and that is the Reformation was the work of God There's a lot of people today don't believe that there's a lot of people today believe the

38:08

Reformation is over That what it was focused upon isn't relevant any longer

38:15

I'm not one of them and I don't think you should be either but this is

38:21

I think a very very important issue and this This leads us to The reality that I was very concerned very shortly after Charlie Kirk's assassination

38:40

Some of the stuff I started hearing You know, it's it's understandable

38:48

Someone who is in a public eye Made all the statements was on campuses.

38:54

There's I don't know how many Tens of thousands of hours of video there is of Charlie Kirk speaking here there and everywhere but I started

39:05

Back on my mind. I'm going and I can see this going some bad directions

39:13

I Can see people quoting Charlie Kirk to prove this that and the other thing and Charlie Kirk shouldn't be being cited to prove anything really than what

39:23

Charlie Kirk actually believed and Then at the memorial and you know, you know, my wife was there my fellow elders were there

39:32

They they all thought it was, you know, pretty exciting I'm only catching bits and pieces of it.

39:38

I'm on the road and And What I'm seeing where they're going

39:47

I just cannot believe that the gospel has been preached the largest audience ever

39:55

By and then you start down the list Every different kind of theological perspective known and So you've got

40:05

Roman Catholics and that was in 90 seconds, man. He just laid out. That was great

40:12

Um, and I guess I was the only person You know the the theological

40:19

Debbie Downer to go, um Those words have a particular meaning in His theological framework, you know,

40:31

I mean you can listen when the more missionaries come to your door If One of the greatest reasons that Christians don't communicate with them

40:41

Well is because they don't know what their vocabulary means. They're using words in very specific and unique ways

40:47

We use the same words in a very different way. We're not communicating So it sounds like they're saying what we believe but they're not

40:56

When they talk about eternal life, they mean eternal lives The ability to have children procreate children the spirit realm after you become a god

41:05

I think the same thing and So You're just like I've spent decades trying to explain to people

41:16

You have to learn to bridge the language barrier in talking to Mormons. Well when

41:22

Roman Catholics Use terminology now I realize today

41:29

There is not as much of a monolithic position as there has been the past Vatican to has

41:38

Expanded things out and I can hope That there are Roman Catholics that when they say these things

41:44

They've been so influenced by influences outside the Roman Catholic Church that they actually believe that that would be wonderful.

41:51

That would be great But I can't just simply sit there and go okay this person is staying in communion with Rome they're not stupid

42:02

The vice president is a convert to Roman Catholicism in 2019 and Scott Hahn is one of his best buds.

42:12

Okay, so I know Where Scott Hahn's coming from and yeah, they're

42:18

Roman Catholics that think Scott Hahn has tried to Presbyterian eyes Roman Catholicism Okay, that's a whole nother topic but You can't you have to be super naive to simply go

42:34

Hey, I what I heard sounded great because Again once you start asking questions, you know,

42:47

I've seen people saying hey, I watched the Charlie Kirk Memorial I'm gonna read the Bible for the first time.

42:52

I'm gonna go to church on Sunday Where should I go? Well, are you gonna answer that?

42:59

What's the standard by what standard is that to be judged? Oh that gets to the sufficiency of Scripture or the insufficiency of Scripture as Formally taught by the

43:10

Roman Catholic Church or the need for other scripture as taught by the LDS Church So you can put these questions off in the haze of emotion and Joy, and We're all together

43:28

But we're not all together. Oh, we just need to put this stuff aside. We need to go with the moment

43:34

But what message are we proclaiming? When we talk about repentance who gets to define what that is

43:43

Where do you find what? How do you answer that? So forgive me for Being the the realist in the room but it really seems like This push again can only go one direction

44:07

This push isn't meant to Bring people out of Roman Catholicism and say hey look, here's the gospel.

44:14

Here's what the gospel actually is by minimizing the importance of justification by faith

44:22

By minimizing the importance of man's deadness and sin That can only lead you one direction that can't lead you into a biblical

44:34

Gospel of a finished work of Christ that's gonna lead you into something defined by tradition

44:40

Within Roman Catholicism or these days. He's an orthodoxy ever might be that's not going to bring you to the biblical gospel and that push for ecumenism is

44:53

Is very much a part of Roman Catholic integralism, which is just simply From the

44:59

Roman Catholic perspective if you go back and read the Pope's which Roman Catholics don't do and Protestants don't do But you know read the papal syllabus of errors that time period.

45:09

I said, ah, it's all changed. Well, it can't change It can evolve it can be redefined but the integralists tend to be traditionalists and very conservative and They believe that The Church of Rome is absolutely necessary For the proper functioning of society and they go back to the sacralism of the medieval period

45:33

That's where it is. You Protestants messed all this stuff up so Most of the churches most ecumenical most.

45:46

Yeah. Well ecumenically mighty. Yes, but most evangelical churches today Do not have

45:54

The theological and historical foundation to stand Against this kind of onslaught if a bunch of their people start going.

46:03

Hey This is the movement. We want to be involved with They're gonna go with it whether it means the sacrificing of key

46:14

Doctrinal elements for the greater good or whatever

46:19

Um, yeah, that's that's how it goes so, um

46:26

Let me see. Where'd I Where'd I put that one? Um Maybe it's just something

46:35

I Yeah, okay there it is it's not it's not a so That's point one

46:44

Roman Catholicism ecumenical movement when the attack on the

46:51

Mormon Ward in Michigan Just astonishing You know the the drone footage of the entire structure on fire

47:02

I'd never seen anything like that. I've never seen anything like ever I don't remember any church shooting and it was even closer guess he used he planned all this accelerants

47:10

Look, we don't know anything about the guy I mean There's been stuff about whether he had a shirt on didn't have a shirt on to that jump on it and all that He was killed wasn't he okay

47:24

Um, so We may never know I mean I still does anybody out there know what the

47:31

Las Vegas shooter was thinking we have no earthly idea And we're never gonna know you say that and it's the first thing my wife said, you know, we don't know

47:39

There's so much we don't know about these guys and she pointed at the Las Vegas shooter and they know nothing

47:45

Why did a guy who was a millionaire as I understand it from gambling? Decided to go up there and do that No, I know

47:54

Well, I'm not gonna say nobody knows but we're not gonna be told Well, maybe we may find out someday.

48:00

I don't know. But the point is we don't know why he did what he did the news comes out

48:05

I Post on X and all I said and I knew was a LDS Ward Chapel All I said was horrific

48:15

Lord have mercy. So I said I Didn't say anything about Mormonism. I didn't say y 'all need to read my books on Mormonism like that I just said

48:26

Lord have mercy and Then it may have been a little more than 24 hours later.

48:31

I think it was yesterday morning A US Senator Lee from Utah a lifelong

48:40

Mormon comes out and posts This It looked like it was written by the church advertising department about how they're

48:55

Christians and You know, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

49:01

I noticed they didn't say in the flesh which they used to because That's the only way it makes any sense in Mormonism Jesus isn't the only begotten

49:11

Son of God in Mormonism. He's only got the Son of God in Mormonism in the flesh That is he's the only person that God the

49:19

Father and a physical body had begat with the Virgin Mary Yeah Exactly.

49:28

Um, yeah, that's what makes him the only God the Father in the flesh, which is why he could then have

49:34

Immortal life because his father was immortal Yeah, that's what that's what it means and There are lots of Mormons that don't know that anymore.

49:46

This is what need to understand But anyways, hold on. Um So he comes out with this thing this full -throated

49:56

Advertisement of Mormonism and we're all supposed to just sit back and go. Oh, that's great.

50:01

That's wonderful those of us who have stood for countless hours

50:10

Outside the general conference in Salt Lake City outside the Easter pageant in Mesa outside Christmas lights in Mesa and in so many other places

50:19

We're supposed to just sit there and go hmm because some wacko Attacked a

50:27

Mormon Ward Chapel, so we're supposed to just let this Advertisement go on no, and it was against again

50:34

Eric metaxas Who two days ago said if you think now is the time to argue

50:41

Theological differences with the LDS community your insensitivity to those mourning in the deaths of their loved ones

50:46

Betrays you as far from the heart of God You should worry about that.

50:52

It's a salvation issue Wow, mr. Metaxas is now adding to the gospel

51:01

How far you are from the heart of God If you dare be discussing the simple fact of What I've said for decades that is

51:14

Islam is Closer to Christianity than Mormonism. Oh People don't like that.

51:22

Oh Could defend it against anybody Why because what is the most fundamental foundational definitional?

51:33

expression of Whether it's monotheistic or polytheistic

51:39

You you you can't get more foundational than that Islam and Christianity are monotheistic one

51:47

God creator of all things Joseph Smith in the King Follett funeral discourse delivered only a matter of weeks before his death in 1844

51:58

Said we have imagined supposed the God was God from all eternity. I Will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see

52:07

You know, so I'm not reading anything. I'm looking directly in the camera. Why because I've quoted that to thousands of Mormons in thousands of witnessing situations over decades

52:18

And I don't think Eric metaxas ever has Probably never read it. I don't even know where it came from.

52:23

I wouldn't know where to find it. I Just realized I completely forgot. I was gonna bring some books in back to I was gonna do it in the big studio, but we had to scheduling conflict so you can see these books, but I was going to bring in the

52:39

Journal of Discourses and the documentary history of the church and The reality is large portion

52:49

Mormons today do not know their own theology and I can

52:55

I can testify to this personally when we started

53:03

Evangelizing the Mormons at the Easter pageant and going up to Salt Lake City The kids the young kids would come up to us and argue about exaltation to Godhood They knew what they believed

53:21

I'll never forget elder Hollywood That wasn't his actual name, but he has badge actually said elder

53:28

Hollywood tall kid and He got so angry with me that what we used to call corner one

53:39

Main and Hobson That he lost control himself and he's towering over me he's looking down me.

53:46

I'll never forget this because I'm looking up at him and He's going Someday, I'm gonna be a god and you are going to worship me just that loud

53:58

There's people all around us And I started glance over and even the

54:03

Mormons are like he said the quiet part out loud

54:10

Really loud and He sort of caught himself He did apologize the next night.

54:17

I do want to say that But what he said is what he believed Now it is interesting

54:26

Ten twelve years later I'm standing outside the temple in Salt Lake City This guy comes walking up to me.

54:34

This do you remember me? So look at me look familiar Elder Hollywood It wasn't a

54:42

Mormon name Wasn't a Mormon name Not not that he had been saved but a lot of former missionaries burn out after that two years of Pressure for a while they dropped it to 18 months, but then they went back to years anyways so Mormonism is a polytheistic religion.

55:05

Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion. I know of amongst mankind Mormonism Believes that there are an unlimited number of deities not in the universe, but in the universe is plural so the number of gods increases every day and So that makes the

55:29

Hindus look like amateurs as far as the number of deities is concerned That's the most foundational fundamental metric of a religion you're either monotheistic one

55:40

God or Polytheistic and they're polytheistic and so everything else needs to be understood in light of that From their perspective

55:49

God men and angels are all the same being they're just at different levels of exaltation within Mormonism and there are some

55:58

Mormons that question this part, but intelligences Existed eternally and we're all we were all intelligences whether you're a god man angels

56:08

You're all intelligent. So we are all equal at that point in time. There are some Mormons don't believe that and there's simple reason for this

56:14

Joseph Smith's theology evolved and changed radically

56:21

After the founding of the church April 6 1830 when you read the Book of Mormon He's trying to be a

56:28

Trinitarian. He doesn't understand the Trinity. He's a modalist a lot of Evangelicals are modalists and don't realize it and they've tried to fix some of that by changing the

56:37

Book of Mormon editing it over the years But you don't find in the

56:44

Book of Mormon The King follow a funeral discourse as I mentioned earlier

56:51

And by the way, I I don't know if anybody looked it up, but we did a whole series I don't even know what year this would have would this when was

56:59

Romney running 2012? Let's see

57:04

Okay, so 2012 when did The Arizona senator run was that one 2008?

57:11

Okay, so Romney ran in 2012 and That caused everybody to start talking about Mormonism and So we did a whole series.

57:25

I would assume during the summer of 2012 on Mormonism what

57:34

Mormonism teaches it's Canada scripture Temples priesthoods

57:42

Book of Mormon ancient medieval of mid American Central American archaeology in the

57:50

Book of Mormon False prophecies of Joseph Smith and the Doctrine and Covenants a book of Abraham.

57:56

Oh my goodness Covered the whole gamut and I don't know if anybody

58:05

Looked up those programs With our let's church

58:13

Capabilities now it should should be able to pull those up I Don't know if you can put a date range in there and limit it to that There are a number of posts here from 2007 and 8 a series that you did called

58:29

Mormonism 101 So there's a lot of that. I Mean there's a lot.

58:36

Why would that have been seven and eight a dune to know I Was 12 the second round for him?

58:43

because I I would think I recall McCain running in 8 and in 12 and remember

58:49

Romney being against him there as well, but I Know it was Romney's. I have slept since then.

58:56

Yeah. Yeah. I know it was Romney's running that prompted it. Yeah Anyway, we'll see we'll just have to ask

59:02

I'll go, you know when all else fails ask I'll go and If we can if we can get a

59:11

Link or something that we could put maybe I can stick it in the show Thing on the blog something like that I'm not

59:21

I don't have time Mormonism is such a huge topic

59:27

There are so many from the Mountain Meadows Massacre to Mesoamerican archaeology to Egypt ology.

59:38

Yeah the Book of Abraham It's just When I first started studying it there were times

59:46

I just sit back That was 19 years old. I just sit back and go how am

59:51

I ever gonna remember all this stuff? I Didn't have anybody to provide guidance

59:58

Hadn't found the tanners yet But even when I did still you start reading

01:00:04

Mormonism shadow reality is like whoa It's huge Wide area and I've said many times the difference between Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses Mormonism is huge But you don't need to know it overly in -depth every single area

01:00:20

Jehovah's Witness is very narrow, but you need to know it very much in depth. So sort of like taking Mormonism turning it this way narrow, but you need to know it really death and No way to be doing all that on Mormonism, especially since I have

01:00:36

Written two books on the subject letters to a Mormon elder Which covers the broad?

01:00:43

Spectrum and then the more focused book is the Mormon my brother which is focused specifically on the subject

01:00:53

Where to go? Specifically on the subject of the

01:01:01

LDS doctrine of God and then one of the things that came up on X was

01:01:10

I made reference to A chapter 12 chapter 12 of is the more of my brother and I I need to differentiate between is the more of my brother and the book that Chris Arnzen made reference to The book that I was supposed to write about him called is this moron my brother

01:01:33

He did that at the beginning of a debate but in chapter 12 a Mormon doctrine or mere speculation and This was the teaching

01:01:47

That God the Father Who in Mormonism has the body of flesh and bones no blood?

01:01:54

Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven But God the Father tangible body flesh and bones

01:02:03

Has as many wives He begets spirit children in the spiritual pre -existence

01:02:10

But when it comes time for Jesus His Jehovah his firstborn spirit child to enter into human flesh

01:02:22

Elohim in a physical body begets his body in a sexual act with the Virgin Mary which means she's not the

01:02:31

Virgin Mary anymore and I Made reference to this and I posted

01:02:40

The Graphic that Let me see if I can

01:02:52

Open image and new tab. So while you're looking for that, no, I've got it right here No, I was gonna say the the series was actually

01:02:59

Oh seven He ran in Oh seven and eight and then ran again in twelve Oh, and so the whole series you did was in 2007 and some in eight

01:03:09

Okay, okay good well, well maybe we can put together a well you call it

01:03:15

Mormonism wanna win so it's easy to find Okay. All right Well here is I thought this graphic was in the book

01:03:23

But this graphic is from a 19 most at 74 70 1972 or 74 a family home family home evening manual for Mormons and In talking about this this is back in the 70s where they weren't nearly as embarrassed about things daddy plus mommy means you

01:03:45

Our Heavenly Father plus Mary means Jesus Do we have to get any more basic than this?

01:03:53

I? Mean I provided quote after quote after quote after quote after quote Documenting this look you need to understand most

01:04:00

Mormons. They don't know this But I do like telling the story you can take that down I do like telling the story of How Well, I shut down Twitter in the process, um,

01:04:16

I love telling the story of how on The West Gate now the

01:04:22

West Gate there are four gates to Temple Square. There's actually many ways you got in Temple Square the other require you be high up in the church and use the

01:04:37

All the many tunnels and all the rest that kind of fun stuff anyway, um

01:04:43

If you're gonna get on to Temple Square, this is before they built the meeting house across the way and Got rid of us basically

01:04:51

But most people who are gonna attend the tabernacle and attend the general conference. They had to walk past us So we would put people at the

01:04:58

North Gate the South Gate and the West Gate the quiet gate was the West Gate the

01:05:06

South Gate would be crazy at lunch because all the food places were across the street and North Gate would be busy pretty much the whole day

01:05:14

Especially because once you lined up the missionaries, they'd come through the North Gate into the tabernacle. Anyway I met a demonized guy at the

01:05:23

North Gate once Didn't have a shirt on had a knife that was interesting. Um, but the West Gate Different it was earlier in the morning before the first session cold this tall

01:05:35

Mormon comes striding across the road and He's just gonna blow right by us.

01:05:41

But hey, I was trained by Wally taupe. So I walked with him Got the tract right in front of me couldn't ignore me because I'm moving with him

01:05:50

He takes it he stops he flips it over looks at the back Turns around and he looks at all of us and there were probably

01:05:59

I don't know four of us there and he goes You know what's wrong with you?

01:06:07

We've heard that a few times. You normally don't have to come up with a response. They're gonna continue on whatever you say He says you know what's wrong with you?

01:06:15

he says You don't believe that Elohim in a physical body begat the body of Jesus Christ the

01:06:21

Virgin Mary That's why you're wrong. That's why this is the true church. Have a nice day wheeled around walked in and I was left speechless

01:06:32

Which is rare for me But I was left speechless mainly by his

01:06:41

Honesty as I knew that's what they believed now would that happen today?

01:06:49

Suppose it could Are there fewer Mormons today that have read enough of their history to know?

01:06:56

That this is what only begotten in the flesh means That is fewer

01:07:02

Could Mike Lee the senator from Utah Be one of those people

01:07:07

I suppose I Mean, I would sort of guess that if you're a

01:07:13

United States senator From Utah you might know something about your theology, but I could be wrong

01:07:21

Maybe that's why he didn't say only begotten of the Father in the flesh But if you know these things you can't just sit there and go

01:07:31

Yeah, this would not be the proper time to point out that what he's saying is not what

01:07:36

Christians believe By any stretch of the imagination We could talk about blood atonement

01:07:47

We could talk about all sorts of issues That would demonstrate the vast chasm that separates

01:07:56

The official teachings of Mormonism, which I understand in our day Are being minimized

01:08:03

I get it Mormonism is changing, but they haven't come out and said you know what all that polytheism stuff

01:08:13

Joseph Smith Yeah, we're not gonna do that anymore. They haven't done that What they're doing is

01:08:23

Recontextualizing I Am astonished at how many Mormons I've run into Just over the past couple of years that are willing to Completely redefine what it means to be a prophet

01:08:35

So Joseph Smith can fit into it. You know back when we first started doing this

01:08:42

There's a three volume set of books. I can see the flipcovers By Joseph feeling

01:08:47

Smith called doctrines of salvation and In that series

01:08:52

Joseph feeling Smith who was a prophet of the Mormon Church Uh Said Joseph Smith was either properly called and divinely ordained or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen

01:09:04

There is no middle ground. That's not a direct quote. That's sort of perfect But his point was he was either called of God as a prophet or he was the biggest fraud the world's ever seen there

01:09:15

Is no middle ground. Well, there is a lot of middle ground in Mormonism now And I can tell you the reasons for this

01:09:23

I can tell you Um When Mormonism decided to go mainstream and Sent their best and brightest from BYU to out to go get their

01:09:35

PhDs from Ivy League schools and then bring them back to teach they brought critical theory back with them and They injected it into the mainstream of the

01:09:47

Mormon Church Problem is Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon cannot withstand critical theory.

01:09:55

So You've got a mutant developing right now And it takes time it really does but it's happening and What's Mormonism will look like 10 years from now?

01:10:08

20 years from now. I don't know but Life in Utah right now is weird.

01:10:16

It's It's strange Because you see this you've got this mixture of old -time

01:10:24

Mormons who still believe that Brigham Young was a prophet of God He had new time

01:10:30

Mormons to sort of know the church has thrown Brigham Young under the bus Especially because of his racial comments

01:10:38

I'm saying that No, the priesthood can never be given to the blacks and things like that So You've you've got this strange mixture you back in the late 1980s,

01:10:53

I Could pretty much know what someone believed who walked up to me out and in Mesa.

01:11:00

We said I'm Mormon Now you got a little talk for a while To find out

01:11:07

I told you I've told you the story a couple years ago at the Easter pageant I'm talking with this

01:11:15

Mormon. There's a small group around us and he says I don't understand why you folks are out here You know, we're we're

01:11:23

Christians You know, we accept your baptism you should accept our baptism and I remember sort of glancing over at a older Mormon staying next to him who sir also glancing over at him like Who's gonna tell him and When that guy left

01:11:45

I started talking with the older guy and I said so Y 'all aren't teaching your theology real quick And he's so like, yeah

01:11:55

Yeah, he wasn't right about that because they don't accept our baptism. They can't There is no valid baptism without holding the priesthood in Mormon theology and the priesthood is held only in the

01:12:06

Mormon Church Aaronic and because of priesthood so Yes There are

01:12:14

Mormons today Mormonism has always been extremely subjective the

01:12:20

Mormon testimony Ron. I know when I chapter 10 Pray about these things get the testimony of the

01:12:26

Holy Spirit la la la that subjectivism has is primary reason why you have

01:12:35

LGBTQ plus groups on byu's campus Because if if your testimony the church is subjective then it's primarily emotional and You can find lots of reasons to Emotionally embrace the sexual revolution everything else.

01:12:56

So Yes talking to Mormons today can be much more of a challenge than it was it was a lot easier when you when everybody knew

01:13:05

What they believed? But when Mike Lee comes out and starts

01:13:14

Using now you might say he's just responding to people who's saying they weren't Christians. We've said that from the beginning.

01:13:20

This is a given What major Christian denomination that has any level of Orthodoxy has ever embraced

01:13:28

Mormonism as a fellow Christian denomination? There's always been these movements, you know the guy from Fuller Richard Mao and all that silly stuff that you know, they've tried to but Anybody who takes the time to honestly read their own sources and most

01:13:46

Mormons don't do it anymore Pick up a single volume teachings the

01:13:54

Prophet Joseph Smith by Joseph feelings All he's doing is drawing

01:14:01

Smith's most famous statements and sermons and stuff like that the documentaries of church primarily

01:14:07

Times and seasons things like that and put into one volume for you read it for yourself Not only can you see the evolution he starts off as a monotheist becomes a polytheist you can see the evolution but when when a when the founder of a religion says

01:14:24

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see that person has separated his followers from biblical

01:14:35

Christianity forever Your only choice is to repudiate him if you want to follow

01:14:42

Christ But this is a religion that teaches that God men and angels are all the same being just at different levels of exaltation and Can we go into that yeah forever

01:14:57

For hours and hours and hours the documentation is Complete there isn't any question about this.

01:15:05

The only question you get is from Mormons who haven't done their own homework I haven't done nearly as much reading in this subject as the rest of us have and as their older Mormons have

01:15:16

Definitely, they're not talking about it the way they should be talking about so This is not you know,

01:15:23

I Agree, you don't take the shooting as the as the foundation of hey, let's go get the

01:15:29

Mormons now and I didn't but when the Mormons come out and want to play the victim and in fact

01:15:35

Lee I thought I saved that I did Save that but unfortunately it was

01:15:43

I think on my phone Maybe it's in my photos. Let me see here.

01:15:48

Yep. Here it is. Ha ha ha we found it Oh, there it is in that too. Um, I think this was today

01:15:58

Mike Lee On X said they hated Latter -day Saints and drove us from Ohio, Missouri and Illinois Because we were heretics in the eyes of many we still are

01:16:08

I don't care but I'd like for the killing to stop. Oh Let's play the victim card now

01:16:17

For example Joseph Smith was murdered and His murder was wrong

01:16:24

But he was not a martyr martyrs don't shoot back and Joseph Smith was shooting back and If you know anything about Mormon history

01:16:35

Then you might want to know something about the Danites You might want to know something about Mountain Meadows Massacre.

01:16:42

You might want to know a little something About David W Patton all the battles that they had

01:16:51

Um Maybe know something about the early temple ceremonies. These are facts that many of us know

01:17:02

Man most people on X don't and Had a friend point out

01:17:08

Watching some of this stuff going on The evangelical witness to Mormons is primarily being done by people who think they're

01:17:18

Trinitarians are actually modalists They Aren't representing historical biblical

01:17:25

Christianity accurately at all. They don't know what they're talking about. They're basically doing

01:17:33

It's sad. Okay, they're not using Sound information and sound argumentation.

01:17:39

Then again X doesn't really Reward that a whole lot either. So that's what's going on, but you can't

01:17:50

You know what what he said ignored Lee ignored The fact that so much of that Driving of the

01:18:00

Saints from those places was due to polygamy failed banks and banking schemes by Joseph Smith and The very fact that there was there's literally running military battles between the

01:18:14

Mormons and others They weren't your best neighbors, especially when Joseph Smith is marrying 30 different women

01:18:24

And then they're running around proclaiming that They'll get to have your wives in the future that didn't make for good relationships.

01:18:32

That's why they're going someplace far far away called, Utah So, I mean pulling the victim card and then using this as a means to You know promote

01:18:45

Mormonism I'm sorry Got to respond to that It's it's has nothing to do with some wacko in Michigan but if you're gonna put that out there and say this is the truth and it's not the truth and very obviously sadly a lot of people don't have any idea what

01:19:05

Mormonism actually teaches none and therefore they're Not in a good position to respond to this was there something you wish to say so I did you know senator

01:19:16

Lee's Testimony At least was it was original

01:19:24

But the one thing that stood out to me of when I first encountered it was his claim that he worships

01:19:30

Jesus Yeah, and it immediately hit me. Wait a minute

01:19:36

Now I look this up said Mike Lee was born in 1971 So when Bruce R.

01:19:41

McConkie wrote to the students at BYU that was in the early 80s, right? Yeah, so I'm gonna say he was maybe 10 11 12 years old at the time

01:19:50

Let's say he was old enough to get the Aaronic priesthood Well, yeah, you know somewhere in there

01:19:58

But that was rebuked By McConkie because this was the craze at BYU to pray to Jesus and You can't pray to Jesus because we only have one

01:20:10

God for this planet and that's Elohim even though we believe that Jesus is a

01:20:15

God and so's the Holy Ghost and he doesn't have a body of flesh and bone. We don't know why but That kind of stuff.

01:20:23

It's like wait a minute If you put that stuff out there in this

01:20:31

Environment you're taking as much advantage of it as those you're accusing and we remained quiet Until we see this

01:20:40

And it's like but that's got to be answered. You can't just expect to have a monologue here guys

01:20:46

You don't suddenly have the floor because you've gone through the victim card gives you the floor, but it

01:20:52

It has to be answered and that's what Look, I'm not saying most of the answers have been very good on X.

01:21:01

There's a Yeah, not a lot If you don't know Mormon theology, don't pretend like you do but still

01:21:11

Responding in love is is necessary and we just did just as we did in regards to the

01:21:18

Roman Catholic situation and So, there you go all right, we went 21 minutes long there the world's not gonna end for that, but Hopefully that is helpful to you since this is an ongoing conversation you know if More stuff comes up in regards to the father is the literal father of Jesus stuff.

01:21:39

Hey I've got those files we can put them all on the screen We can walk through the quotations problem is one of the primary people while the primary sources those quotes was

01:21:52

Bruce R. McConkie and Bruce R. McConkie has pretty much been discredited

01:21:58

I Mean, it's it's astonishing to see that You know, I I gave a track to Bruce R.

01:22:04

McConkie once outside the South Gate of the Mormon Temple He was feared

01:22:11

As one of the twelve apostles and He died what 80?

01:22:19

Something it's it's been a while now and I still am shocked when

01:22:24

I walked into the LDS bookstore in Salt Lake City 85 yeah, so it's been it's been 40 years and There's almost nothing by McConkie in there you can't find

01:22:38

Mormon doctrine I promise Messiah. I didn't see that what?

01:22:46

Well, yeah, they can't find most Mormon theology in in the LDS bookstore either but books that were just so common in the mid 80s, which is when we started our ministry of Mormons just gone and Look if he was an apostle of Jesus Christ You you can't disappear an apostle that just gives you a clear example of How ultimate sources of authority work and how they can

01:23:22

They can claim this is what was delivered by God from heaven and then they can edit and change stuff like that There you go

01:23:31

Okay. Thanks for watching the program today. Hopefully that was helpful to you Lord. Willen. We'll be back again on Thursday We'll see you then.