May 23, 2025 Show with Claude Ramsey on “The Weary Pilgrim’s Hope of Heaven”

Opening of Iron Sharpens Iron and the Theme of the Day

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 23rd day of May 2025, and we are getting ready to launch the Memorial Day weekend.

And I am so thrilled to have a returning guest in the program, my dear friend, Pastor Claude Ramsey of Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. He's also a Bible Conference speaker and the host of the Here I Stand Theology Podcast.

Today our theme is going to be the weary pilgrim's hope of heaven, and we're also going to be promoting the upcoming Roadmap to Revival Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee, which is going to take place this September.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Claude Ramsey.

Thank you, sir. I'm so glad to be with you again.

Reformata Baptist Church, Its Confessional Identity, and the Roadmap to Revival Conference

Well, tell our listeners about Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Reformata Baptist Church is still a growing church plant. We planted the church 16 years ago in this month, 16 years ago, and we are located in South Knoxville, Tennessee, just about 30 minutes outside of Pigeon Forge, which most folks would probably know that as a landmark.

That is where all of the big tourism happens here and in the Tennessee region.

So that Dolly World is still a big draw?

Yes, sir. Dolly World is still there. I think Dolly Parton owns most of Pigeon Forge. Wow. Yeah, it's a pretty big deal.

Well, hopefully she'll pay you a visit sometime at the church. And well, tell us something about the theological makeup of Reformata Baptist Church and how you selected the name.

So Reformata Baptist Church, the name Reformata itself is from a larger Latin term, Ecclesia Reformata Semper Reformanda Secundum Verbum Dea. That is the best Latin that you're going to get out of a hillbilly right there.

But it simply means the church reformed and always being reformed according to the Word of God. So we are a confessional, a creedal confessional, Calvinistic local church that just strives to glorify God in all that we do and say, and in and from every activity from the church, we strive for that.

And I understand that you are still using Facebook as the primary way for people to find out more about your church.

Actually, we now have a web page or a website.

Oh, great.

It is reformatabaptistchurch .org. Let me verify the .org there, because it could be .com, but let me check that.

But it will be R-E-F-O-R-M-A-T, as in Thomas A., baptistchurch .org.

Mm-hmm.

Great.

Yep, we have a wonderful group of men who oversee this page. It is reformatabaptistchurch .org. And it is a simple page, but it has been built with particular specifics in mind. So for example, on the About Us tab on the page, you'll, of course, see what we believe, just kind of a general overview of doctrinal standards.

As well, you'll see that we are 1689 Confessional Baptist Church. You'll be able to find out a little bit about the elders of the church and read up on the church constitution, which is important for folks who are looking for a church, so that they have this information kind of ahead of them as they are in and about their search.

And of course, we have the Reformata Baptist Church YouTube page now as well. So that's where all the sermons are going directly to, Reformata Baptist Church on YouTube. You can also watch them live each week on Facebook at Reformata Baptist Church as well.

And I understand one of the strictest requirements you have for church membership is listening to Iron Sharpens Iron radio daily.

Exactly. Exactly. Each and every week, everybody lines up to confess whether or not they have watched or listened to Iron Sharpens Iron. If they haven't, they are forced to sit and listen to an entire Stephen Furtick sermon.

I was getting worried there for a minute. I thought you were going to say forced to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron radio as if someone needs to be forced to listen.

Nobody needs to be forced to listen to this. This is, by the way, this is a course, and your listeners know it, but for those who may be listening that don't know it, this is one of the longest and steadfast, most consistent and faithful to the word radio shows that you will find.

So I would encourage everybody to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron radio every weekday from 4 to 6 p .m. How's that for a plug?

That sounds great. In fact, when I started the show in 2005, there was hardly anybody doing an interview talk show that was Reformed. And now, you know, I've got more competition than I'm even aware of.

I mean, there's probably thousands of people from, and that's just from the Reformed camp doing interview podcasts. But anyway, well, I so love having you on the program. And let's, before we forget, plug the upcoming conference where you are one of a number of speakers.

That is the Roadmap to Revival Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee, at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tullahoma, pastored by Jeffrey Rice, who is also the founder and president and master craftsman at the Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding.

But if you could tell us about this conference and your participation in it.

All right, so first of all, let me just go ahead and give the address for that. That's C-R-B-C, Tullahoma, T-U-L-L-A-H-O-M-A, C-R-B-C, Tullahoma, dot org. That's where folks can get registered.

That is the church's website. If you talk to Jeff himself, Tullahoma, is it pronounced Tullahoma? It's Tallahoma.

Now, is he mispronouncing it or is that the way he's supposed to pronounce it?

No, it's just accent. It's just accent. I just noticed that when he speaks, but this conference really is an extension of the previous conferences that Jeff has hosted for the past two years. It had been the Open Air Theology Conference.

This year, it's just called the C-R-B-C Conference because it is just specific to his local church there, Covenant Reformed Baptist Church. And the topic is Roadmap to Revival. As you mentioned, there are a number of speakers going to be at this conference.

So, Jeff, I texted Jeff earlier. He sent me the list of the speakers in their order in the topics that will be spoke on. So, James White will be both opening and closing the conference, which again is September the 12th and 13th.

That's a Friday and a Saturday. James White will be opening and speaking on the revival of the authority of the scripture, following him, Andrew Rappaport. Everybody loves Andrew Rappaport. He's a good brother in Christ.

He'll be speaking on the revival of faithful leadership. And then everybody's favorite denominational guy, Keith Foskey, king of the Amillennials, will be speaking on the topic of revival begins in the house of God.

The next preacher will be Jonathan Burrus. He'll be preaching on revival through repentance. And I'll be closing out that Friday a session preaching on the cost of revival. And then Saturday, Michael Schultz.

I believe you just had Michael on on Monday.

Yeah, but we have to have him back on because my computer died right in the middle of the show, which is why I have a new computer.

Well, Michael will be preaching on the topic of revival through spirit empowered preaching. That will be definitely a sermon that you will not want to miss. Michael Schultz is a faithful, trustworthy man of God who knows.

I mean, he's a smart young man.

Yes, I was reading his resume and he's got some very impressive academic background to.

Him. He had to be so young, too. Jeremiah Nortier will be preaching on revival in a confessional church. Then Jeff Rice himself will be preaching revival through the gospel is his topic. And then closing out Saturday's session, the topic by James White will be no prayer and no revival.

Which is a very, very good, good topic. I look forward to hearing that as well. So it's going to be a jam packed two days. However, Jeff is working to fashion the conference in such a way that there is plenty of time for fellowship between the sermons, so on and so forth.

So it will be a wonderful time in the Lord. I encourage everybody that can to be to to go to that as well.

The Weariness of Pilgrims in a Fallen World

Great. And we will be repeating the website, God willing, towards the end of the program. Well, you have picked a very profound theme for our discussion today, the weary pilgrim's hope of heaven. I'm doing that by memory.

Did I get that right?

Yes, sir.

Yeah, because I'm trying to get to that page on my phone here. But why is it that you were so compelled to discuss that specific theme today?

Well, it stems from, as is most everything in our lives individually, I think each of us as believers go through times of what we may consider dark nights of the soul. We go through periods of depression.

We go through periods of just just simply being I mean, I don't think I'm alone in this, but just simply being overwhelmed by the by the by the effects of sin, not so much in the world. It's expected in the world.

But when we see sin ravage the church of God, you know, both both both local and regional or however you want to phrase that in that term, the big the church at large, it's just kind of it's it's in a way at times disheartening.

And I just wanted to, by the grace of God today, to maybe just have this conversation and maybe walk through some of the the personal challenges that that I'm facing with the onslaught of negative news that we have had just in this past year within particularly within reformed circles, within reformed churches, where, you know, it seems like maybe 20 years ago or so it all of the scandals and all of the problems that goes on go on within churches, maybe due to the fact that it wasn't necessarily just we didn't have access to information like we have it now.

But having that access now, I think, is is both a positive and negative and can be a detriment to our spiritual health as believers, as as a Christian man, seeing and realizing and understanding the. The depths of our depravity as individuals and also understanding at that same point in time that when we we see the depth of depravity rising up in the church, that we must equip ourselves both mentally and spiritually to handle the the devastating news like we've received over this past again this past year with the, you know, with the downfall of several leaders within the reformed church.

And it's just I wanted to talk about this so that if other folks are experiencing this, I wanted, number one, to encourage folks and number two, to educate folks in case they don't know that the church of Jesus Christ itself is going to be all right because the Lord founded the church and the Lord keeps his church.

And so what what we as believers need to understand and know is that as as John Bunyan puts it, I love John Bunyan, but, you know, in his book, The Pilgrim's Progress, it's all about going through the world, this world with a heavy weight upon your back.

And in the case of The Pilgrim's Progress, it's that that weight of sin and that journey, if you would have it to heaven. For we are as believers, pilgrims and strangers. Here's what the Bible teaches.

And so being a pilgrim, there are times when we just. Get disheartened, we get disgusted and we just get fed up with the things that's going on, but we can't quit, there's no quitting place, there's no stopping place, there's no place for us to lay down our sword, so to speak, and to just wait for the end, we've got to continue to plod along faithfully and look to the Lord as our source of strength and our source of hope.

Heaven as Anticipation, Not Escapism

Now, there are some, not all, I don't want to broad brush, there are some post-millennialists that I'm not even sure where you are eschatologically. OK, well, there are some post-millennialists who.

Think that Christians are all too often. Wishing they were in heaven. Because obviously, post-millennialists believe that there will likely. Be many decades, if not even centuries left here on this earth before the return of Christ.

And they view this mindset of longing for heaven. On occasion, remember, I'm not broad brushing here because this isn't the case with all post-mill folks. Of which there are post-millennialists on the roster at the conference where you're speaking, and some of our dearest friends are post-mill, like our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White.

I never heard him speak this way. But they think it's a defeatist attitude. That, like, even to utter the phrase, even so, Lord, come quickly is a annoying phrase for them. What kind of response do you have to that negative attitude about the longing for heaven?

Of course, I'm sure even a post-millennialist, if he's on his deathbed, is longing for heaven, if he's suffering. But, you know, how do you respond to that?

So, number one, first thing I do is I recognize the terminology. So, escapism is a term that's used a lot of times, right? That's the term that's really one of the key terms that's used a lot of times.

But it's really not the biblical view. I don't think that's a fitting term. I think anticipation, a longing for and a looking for, rightly, for, number one, to be with the Lord. And then, number two, because of the troubles and trials in this life, we just get overwhelmed.

But my response to that would be a biblical response. And I would go to 2 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, chapter five. So, the Apostle Paul himself, in speaking to the church at Corinth in his second letter, and would it be OK if I just read some of the text here?

OK. So, 2 Corinthians, chapter five, beginning in verse one, the Apostle Paul says this,. For we know that if this tent or this tabernacle, that is, our earthly home, is destroyed and that we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, that is eternal in the heavens.

Now, again, it's important that we understand the context of the passage. This tabernacle, this tent that he's talking about, is not a building. He's talking about his body. And goes on in verse two and says,.

For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling. And if indeed by putting it on, we may not be found naked. For Paul says this,. For while we are still in this tent, we do groan because we're burdened.

But not that we would be unclothed, but that we would further be clothed so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. And he who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the spirit as a guarantee.

So Paul says, We are always of good courage, for we know that while we are at home in the body, that we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please the Lord. So we see this longing in Paul's writing. If we jump over to the book of Philippians, again, in Paul's letter to the church at Philippi.

Paul is again the apostle of Christ, but he is a man who suffered greatly physically and spiritually speaking for Christ. And in his letter to the Philippian church, which is probably I refer to it as his mushiest letter, it's the mushiest of the epistles because there's so much love and affection that he pours out in this letter.

But in verse 19 of chapter one of Philippians, he says, I know that through your prayers and the help of the spirit of Jesus Christ, this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now, as always, Christ will be honored in my body, whether it be by life or by death.

And then he says this, he makes this statement that everybody has on bumper stickers and on magnets for the refrigerator, for to me to live is Christ and to die is gain. That's a huge statement he makes.

And he says, if I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me, yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell, for I am hard pressed between the two. So here again, we have this pulling, kind of heaven pulling upward and the earth pulling downward.

He said, if I am to live in this flesh, it means fruit for me. I'm hard pressed between the two, for my desire, Paul said, is to depart and to be with Christ. That is far better. Even the apostle Paul admitted that and said that.

But he said to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. And convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress, joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus because of my coming to you again.

So long, long drawn out answer scripturally to your question, that would be my response. And my answer is that it's not escapism when we talk about longing to be with the Lord and longing to go home, to be with the Lord.

It's anticipation. It's a very real hope promised to the believer. Amen.

And, of course, there are people that have an unbalanced eschatology, an unbalanced Christian life where the old saying of why polish the brass on a sinking ship, where there is little, if any, passion to bring transformation to the culture and the world through our Christian witness.

They just are so focused on being raptured out of here that those things aren't of great importance, if any. But there are still many folks who seem to have a balance over these things in a good.

Way.

The Hope of Heaven Belongs to the Believer Alone

Well, we are going to our first commercial break, and if you have a question for Pastor Claude, submit it to chrisarendsen at gmail .com. Chrisarendsen at gmail .com doesn't have to be on our theme today.

He is a pastor, so he may have a question that requires some word of counsel. We always obviously hope that you have a solid church where you're a member, where you can go to your own elders. But unfortunately, there are people who are beginning to question the theology and soundness of the church where they're members and they need other godly voices to guide them through things.

So obviously, if it's something like that, you may remain anonymous. But if you have any question on the Bible, history, theology that you'd like to ask Pastor Claude, and it's a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away. We are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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And don't forget CVBBS .com is now shipping worldwide. We are now back with Pastor Claude Ramsey of Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, who is also the host of the Here I Stand Theology podcast and also speaker at the upcoming Roadmap to Revival Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

And we are discussing the weary pilgrim's hope of heaven. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. And let me go to a question that's directly involving the concept of heaven.

We have Justine in Albany, New York, who asks,. I am somewhat confused about the different places where Jesus is supposed to be right now. I know that the Bible describes him as going to Sheol and also Paradise, and yet he is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Can you explain these three seemingly contradicting concepts?

Absolutely. So and I'll be as succinct as possible. So, for example, if we were to let me bring up a text here from Revelation, actually Revelation chapter one, because we have Christ himself explaining and talking about this, that he says in verse in Revelation chapter one, verse 17, John said, When I saw him, I fell at his feet, though dead, but he laid his right hand on me saying, Fear not, I am the first and the last and the living one.

I died and behold, I'm alive forevermore. I have the keys of death and hades. So in in both Hebrew and Greek literature, particularly that's the language is the Bible itself is written in. We have mentioned of death.

So death is just exactly what you think of it. Death. It's dying. It's ceasing to live. And then hades is referred to in in Hebrew and Greek literature as the place of the dead. So so Christ, we have it according to the scriptures, First Corinthians chapter 15, one through four.

We have it that the gospel is this that Christ died for our sins and that he was buried. That's being placed in in the grave hades in the place of the dead and that he arose from the dead. So the the key to the key to understanding these different terms that are used is is just knowing what they mean.

So death is ceasing to live. Hades is referred to as the place of the dead. And of course, the scripture says Christ arose and that he ascended where he to the right hand of the throne of God, where he ever lives, where he ever lives or where he always lives.

So he never dies. And to the to the topic at hand, the weary pilgrims hope of heaven, the fact that our savior, this is a foundational hope for us, that the resurrection of the dead is a foundational hope for the believer.

If we do not have this hope of the fact that Christ, not the idea, but the very fact that Christ died, that he was buried and that he rose from the dead and that he ever lives, then truly we have no hope.

The apostle Paul said in First Corinthians chapter 15 as well, he said, if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. So our hope goes beyond this world. And the language of the scriptures that refers to death in Hades, again, it's simplified by just understanding what those words and terms mean.

Well, thank you very much for a very excellent question. And one thing that may overly concern Christians, which they need not be overly concerned about, is we are certain that when we depart from this earth, if we are truly born again, that is, we will be with Christ in paradise.

And however, if you want to get down to the details on the afterlife, would you not say, and this is something that you typically don't hear necessarily spoken of, I think that perhaps even primarily in fundamentalist pulpits, the afterlife is often preached on as if you will be in your final reward in heaven, or if you are lost, or if you are damned, you will be in hell, the place prepared for the devil and his angels, the lake of fire.

But are not both the regenerate and the reprobate in different compartments of the afterlife, if you will, where paradise is not quite yet the full-blown heaven that we will be enjoying when we are reunited with our bodies, and hell, although it's going to be a torturous place as soon as the lost or the damned die, it's not even quite the full-blown lake of fire, where, if you look at the chronology of this, these are two places, the one for the elect being in heaven for eternity and the one for the damned being in hell for eternity.

Those are places that the elect and the damned go to after judgment. Am I making sense here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's spelled out toward the end of the book of the Revelation there. Yeah. So, and I think it's the, there is, because that topic and that doctrine is so large, I think it's largely, like you mentioned, it's largely passed over by a lot of pastors, and it shouldn't be.

This should be something that is taught, that is communicated, that is articulated so that folks can have a good and a right understanding of that.

And do you think, I don't think this is a salvific issue. I have met and spoken with fellow believers who believe it is a salvific issue, but I think that perhaps they're being somewhat harsh, even though rightly very concerned about the accuracy of doctrine.

Those folks who wrongly believe in soul sleep, I believe that it is a very serious error, and it robs Christians unnecessarily of joy when they are contemplating the death of brothers and sisters in Christ and loved ones who are born again.

They're obviously not grieving as if these folks are damned, but still to believe they are just unconscious in the earth or wherever the realm of the unconscious is. Why is this such a bad understanding of the afterlife?

Well, because I think it minimizes the value of the soul. So God breathed in a man the breath of life, a man became a living soul. So to consider the idea of soul sleep is a lot, I think the best analogous way that I could explain it is a lot like cryogenic sleep, something just put on kind of on hold.

It's not something that the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches directly from the Scripture. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In the Gospels on the cross, when our Lord was crucified there between the two thieves, the one thief kept railing on him, mocking him, if you're the Christ, save yourself and us.

He just wanted to get out of trouble. But the other thief, oh, God opened his eyes and he saw Christ for who he is, the savior of the world. And he looked to Jesus and according to the scriptures, he said, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

And Jesus did not say, tell you what, you take a nap on it, you sleep for a while and you'll be with me. No, Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise. So the moment that thief closed his eyes in death, oh, he was with the Lord, just as the scripture promises.

Amen, amen. Let's see here, let's go to another question. We have Ralph in Quebec City, Canada, or as I think they pronounce it, Quebec. And I'm probably even butchering that, but Ralph says, when we are in everlasting glory, will we actually meet other believers that we know?

Wow, that's a big question. We can only go to texts that tell us, we only know what the scripture tells us. So the scripture says that we will be known as we're known. And it's important, I think here, too, and I don't want to obfuscate, but I do want to include this in the answer.

I think it's important that we make a distinction or make the distinction that when we die and go to be with the Lord, that is not glorification. Glorification takes place at the second coming when the trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ are raised and we shall be raised up together with the Lord in the air.

So I think when as individual believers, we can make that distinction, it helps us in our understanding a lot along the way.

Amen. Thank you, Ralph. Keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word about the program in Quebec, Canada. And let's see, we have a steward in Long Island City, New York, and a steward says,.

I think sometimes that Amill and postmillennial Christians make the error of rejecting the term rapture completely. I understand we should reject eschatologically a secret rapture, but the word rapture means being caught up in the air and all biblically sound Christians, no matter what their eschatological view, believe that we will be caught up in the air at the last day.

And the rejection of the term rapture might unnecessarily lead people to wrongly believe that we are hyper-preterists. Am I making sense?

I think that. What was that gentleman's name?

A steward.

Stewart, I think I think that is a excellent question, and that's an excellent point to make. And it goes. It goes back to something that you spoke about just a few minutes ago,.

Mr.

Arnsen, when you talked about balance, we we have to be balanced. We if we it's like riding a bicycle, if you lean too far one way or the other, you're going to fall over. Right. So it's important to keep your feet on the pedals, to keep the sprocket turning and to maintain balance.

And that and that and that just like any other thing, that idea can can be overblown and overused and overemphasized, which he is right to to be raptured does mean to be caught up in the air. And that's exactly what the scripture says will take place with us as believers.