Christian & Mormon Debate (Incredible)

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00:09

She luckily took me back because I was in the pit of hell. I was so I was so addicted to so many different things and like The thing is is is my savior he came to me and he told me what to do

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Okay, I have no no doubt about that. And there's there's nobody that can break that down to me and I Recognize from that that it was his voice that saved

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Well, and I cannot I cannot deny that fact because like it's not it's not this church

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That means nothing. I Like that's why I walked away from it. That's why

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I'm not LDS anymore is because like Everything that they say is about the church it all leads back to that I am sitting here saying that no it all believes it all leads back to him

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Asks me to do something and that's what second Nephi is talking about if he asks me to do something

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I better sure as hell do it because if not, how am I better than anybody else?

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Like look at all these people out here in the world. You guys are awesome It's like I really I really believe that because you're actually doing something how many people out there

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Sit there and don't do a damn thing Because they say I'm saved because I accepted

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Christ So I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna do not a damn thing about it. So but I'm saying

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If you believe in Christ and you study out that word faith, you see where it comes from So it is being loyal to him and him alone.

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Okay, so here's a text for you. So Says that when the goodness and loving -kindness of God our

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Savior appeared he saved us Not by works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy so faith and works

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They like Like but how can you show faith if you don't do anything

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Mary? How can you really show him that you're loyal to him if you don't do anything about it and that's works and that's that's what?

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Christ is always asked of his people. He didn't just sit there and say Okay. So here's another example

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Christ that the man with palsy is brought in and Christ looks down at the man and he says go my way and sin no more.

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Okay. Well then the Pharisees he perceives their thoughts And he sees what they're thinking and so he kind of turns to the

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Pharisees and he starts talking to him and he's going back He turns back and he looks at the man and he says

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I already healed you He says you go thy way pick up your bed and go thy way and sin no more

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Right. He required of that man a work He required him to pick up his bed if that man would have laid there on the bed would have been healed

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So just to clarify we're not saying that works don't matter. We're just talking about how someone is declared righteous before But so what's and that's and that's what

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I'm saying that and that's exactly what's it second Nephi is saying You're taking it. You're taking it and saying that It's saying that works is what saves us

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Okay, and that's and that's what it is saying because you have to it's like it's like you have to put in Something to activate that grace like you you have not accepted his grace if you're not willing to do it

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That's false gospel, yeah, well, I don't want to interrupt no, no, yeah, so I mean It is what the scriptures teach because the scriptures testify

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It testifies that there was more writings to come. How is how is someone Jim? I see that how someone justified before God how somebody justified before God were not

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Oh, well, you disagree with Paul, huh? You disagree with Paul No, Paul says therefore having been justified

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By faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. He talked to Christians So real well, let's go one one at a time so you don't believe that a person can be justified before God No, I'm asking

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I'm saying that if you're saying by faith, you're just by faith alone. Okay, that's a Paul believe

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I'll give you the verse so you have something to shoot at. Okay Romans 328 Paul says therefore we conclude that a man is justified

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Declared righteous by faith apart from works of law So then wait, so then

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Paul's Paul's contradicting himself. No, because how's Paul? How's Paul even called? Well, I think you're

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I think Saying Paul an inspired Apostle is contradicting himself. I think

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I think and I don't believe I Know I'm just continuing you guys are quoting these single scripture.

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No, I'll give you I'll give you I can I can show you the Chapter in Romans chapter 3 Where's that from that verse

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I quoted to you, where's that from? Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law very good

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So Romans 3 in Romans 3 the context, you know You're aware of then that he gives the indictment of all of humanity all of sin all fall short of the glory of God No fear of God before their eyes.

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There is no God seeker and then he says there in contradiction to you He says by the law

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No flesh would be justified on his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. So you disagree with Paul's soteriology there

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Okay, well then then no, I I'm not saying that. No what I'm saying is If if you are taking that one verse, okay, and basically

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I'm not taking one verse I'm taking the context Okay, the context is universal indictment and sin, but look the law can't justify anybody.

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Okay? How was Paul called? Well, hold on. Let's let's do one thing at a time.

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We're in Rome We're in we're in we're in Rome. We're in Roman by the grace of God But you're talking about Paul so by this Paul called by the sovereign will of God By the sovereign will of God God chose

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Paul before the foundation of the world that in him What did Christ ask of Paul after he opened after he commissioned him?

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He commissioned he commissioned him to be he commissioned. I think you misunderstand the biblical gospel

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We'd I'd hear it. Here's where your misunderstanding is. No Christian historically has ever believed what you think we believe

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That would be it would be heresy the idea that we can just say we believe in Jesus and do nothing

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None of us here believe that and that that's that's what I'm saying. I understand it That's why

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I'm saying I respect the hell out of what? Yeah, but I'm saying that I think what you're what you're going after is is something that Christians don't actually believe heretics

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Believe that and that's what I'm saying, too. That's where however, but what you believe is heresy Because you believe that you believe that God's grace is actuated you said by your works

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Paul says Paul says that's anathema God asks you to do something right? Amen. Obey it.

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Obey it Then isn't that faith? It is it is faith. It is it is faith in action, but how are you justified faith?

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How I know it I read Greek sir. I know what the word faith isn't great pistis. It talks about it's a commitment to trust

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It's loyalty it's it's a commitment to trust. Yeah, and which is at the highest form is loyalty

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The highest like form. What do you mean highest form the highest? Have you ever do you read do you read corny? Do you read corny

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Greek? Do you read coin a Greek? I've studied I've studied it out. Okay, so when you say a highest level,

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I'm not sure what you mean highest level I mean that if if the ultimate trust, you know, it's loyalty to Jesus.

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Oh, amen. We're there man, like so seriously But but how is a person you how are you when you and I are you'd agree with biblical theology that we're lost and sinners right, so, how do

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I go from a lost sinner to a justified saved Person and the question is how does that that gulf get bridged?

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Paul's theology Jesus theology the Bible's theology is that through faith in Christ trust in him

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We are credited Christ's righteousness apart from any works We stand before God with Christ's righteousness as a gift not our own righteousness.

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That's Paul's theology in Philippians 3 Well, but you actually said that it's your works that actuate that faith like it sure

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I believe yeah, right No, so then that that's not what Paul believed But it is because he showed it by his work.

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No, no I think you're you're mixing two things and I'm with you I see what you're saying and I actually

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I'm with you I'm on board with you in terms of condemnation of people who say they believe but then nothing happens.

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That's what James says That's what Paul says. That's what Jesus said So we're on the same page, but it's just a question of how do you enter into a relationship of peace with God?

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Is it through faith and my obedience and then I am right with God because I am righteous enough in some degree

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Or is it an empty hand of faith that receives the gift of eternal life and righteousness?

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That's Paul's theology Okay, but then why if God is the same yesterday today forever?

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Yeah, okay He calls people like for instance, let's let's look at Jonas. Okay, okay, so he calls

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Jonah Jonah Jonah Okay, I'm thinking of Nick Jonas Jonas brothers. I was just gonna say I was to say

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I thought I saw your daughter over there Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know where that comes from. Yeah. Yeah. No, they

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So you look you look at Jonah, right? Yes. God calls Jonah. Yeah, what does Jonah do he runs away?

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Yeah, he runs away. Okay. Yeah He repents. Yeah, and he comes back and he he does he does his thing, right?

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Okay, right and he shows his faith, right? Yes. Okay, so Wouldn't he be saved then?

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Through through faith before I okay. I got it. Sorry. Let's do it this way because we're talking

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Old Testament Yeah, right Jonah, right? Yeah best way to do this if you and I are gonna nail something down We can we can only really nail it down where Paul does and that's in the

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Old Testament and that's on a single figure Before Jonah and it's Abraham and what he says is this

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Old Testament this before Jesus came to the earth We have to agree with Paul here. We don't that's all there is to it because Paul centers his whole view of justification on If you're gonna be a descendant of Abraham and an heir of the promise of eternal life

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You've got to have the same faith of Abraham and what he says is this Genesis 15 6

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Abraham believed God it was credited to hit, you know this it was credited to him as righteousness and Paul asked the question

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This is the whole thing right here, dude. It settles it right now. He says How was it credited to him?

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He says ultimately before Circumcision or after and the answer is before like 20 years like no not 20 years

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But it was it was before circumcision and about 20 years before Isaac and the altar and about 400 years before the law

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So Paul says this if you're gonna be an heir of Abraham, you're gonna have his faith

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It was before he did any work any circumcision any obedience with Isaac any law

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So here's the thing Abraham's faith was pure empty hand not a thing and he says all of God's children ultimately have to have that faith

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Apart from any work. So here's all I'm encouraging you. I did you were you in Mormonism before? Okay, this is all

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I want to I want you to hear number one We want you to know the true Christ and I see you're passionately committed to knowing that Did not

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Lucifer's brother he's God himself, but the other thing is this they taught you for years that That it is faith

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Plus your works that ultimately earn salvation and see that's the thing is is Like I've thrown oh,

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I've thrown away. Yeah, I can see every everything that they taught me I can see I was telling him I I firmly believe in the

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Book of Mormon because of like Oh, you still believe in the Book of Mormon? Oh, I didn't Even I still believe in Joseph Smith you do

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I do but here's the thing I was telling him and you guys you guys are welcome to research this on on your own.

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Mm -hmm Look in look into Joseph's murder. Look at who I know they murdered him.

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Yeah, he was murdered and well by who? What like in the town that day like who was involved?

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It was it was his brethren. What was it? Okay, I haven't researched that. I know what happened that day.

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Yeah, and it's People are coming. We're gonna get swamped here in a second. Anyway, I Can we do this do you live locally?

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I don't we're don't be from Utah. We're just down here. Do this. I'm Jeff Okay. Okay. Yeah, I really care about you.

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You seem like a great guy That's the way to get ahold of me and we can just chat through email.

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Yeah, just chat chat through email chat We can talk whatever just just have an extended friendship and conversation for sure.

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Okay, I really do Because like I mean, honestly you guys are actually doing something well,

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I appreciate that Appreciate the love. No, what was your name again? Mandy Mandy. Yeah, that's awesome.

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Yep. Yep. All right, man. God bless you guys And what was your name? Nice to meet you. All right,