Covenants & Nations

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the Edification of the Saints before we dig into our topic. We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you. I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Durham Chris Kiesler and Andrew Hudson. We had a question sent in to us a while back about Psalm 2 and we wanted to try and cover it today. As it pertains to the Old Covenant and New Covenant and the differences between the two the question reads.

The Old Covenant was with one nation but the New Covenant seems more expansive and defines the people of God as a nation. Is God in covenant with all the nations or just Christians. How are nations accountable if not part of the New Covenant?

There isn't a specific covenant with America. But does Psalm 2 imply national guilt. Is a nation judged for the state of its leaders who may or may not be on Recent lists. I don't know what that's referencing.

But it also says can the state of the nation be laid at the feet of the church. Is the church Responsible for communism. And we agreed that after we read that question, we'll go right into reading Psalm 2.

Psalm 2, the Messiah, and the Nations

So Psalm 2 reads why do the nation's rage and the people plot a vain thing. The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together Against the Lord and against his anointed saying let us break their bonds and pieces and cast away their cords from us.

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh and the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then he shall speak to them in his wrath and distress Them in his deepest pleasure yet. I have set my king on my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree the Lord has said to me. You are my son today. I have begotten you ask of me and I will give you the nation's for your inheritance and the ends of the earth for your Possession.

You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel. Now therefore be wise O Kings. Be instructed you judges of the earth serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the son lest he be angry and you perish in the way. When his wrath is kindled but a little Blessed are all those who put their trust in him and that's the King James version or new King James version.

All right, Michael so Psalm 2 of course is a Passage that many people would turn to to think about the meaning of Messiah and Christ. What does it mean? That he is the fulfillment of God's promises that there is a new covenant a new arrangement and so this is a passage that particularly brings the kings of the earth the rulers the nations into view and Their relationship to God's anointed his Messiah his Christ is considered.

Obviously, this is very much in agreement with a passage that we would read for instance in Matthew 28 Regarding the Great Commission that Jesus says all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. You know teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you baptizing them in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit.

And and Lord I'm with you always even at the end of the age. So we think about the Great Commission. We see some connection here to Psalm 2 regarding Christ's authority. We think of other passages where we are told that he has a name which is above every name.

He is King of Kings Lord of Lords. He is the ruler of the kings of the earth. So I'm just quickly alluding to Philippians chapter 2 and Revelation chapter 1. We can think of all these different areas and even In the book of Hebrews that talks a lot about the new covenant, you know at the beginning Chapters 1 2 we hear about how Christ is God the very image of God in human flesh and that he deserves all the praise and all the authority and all the power and he is the man of all men and All are required to submit to him even though not all are yet in submission to him.

Hebrews 2 tells us. That's very much the direction that everything is going every knee shall bow every tongue Confess so there's a clear trajectory in the scriptures. That Christ is all our horizon. He is the judge of the quick and the dead.

There is no future for mankind outside of Christ. All will bow the knee either in protest or in glad submission so everything is heading that way and The reasons given to us for the exaltation of Christ to such a high degree.

Are very much connected with the bringing about of the new covenant. Which of course is his life death resurrection and ascension and the promise of his return for his bride. Now the particular question is well, how are we to understand the relationship of Nations to Christ and I think what about you Dylan.

Chris Andrew, what do you think the question? Does it look more to the governmental aspects of nations and the particular we call them politicians, but you know magistrates and governors and. And what is their role and accountability to Christ is does that seem to be?

When I think of nations, I'm thinking of biblical terms very often I'm thinking of various people groups and family groups on earth. Other times people look at the word nations and they think instantly government governors so on though the question.

When I'm looking at it, it says seems more expansive and Defines the people of God as a nation. The new covenant. The new covenant. Mm-hmm. It almost seems like it's talking about new covenant theology or covenant theology or some Presbyterians will say well, you can be a Christian, but you're not a Christian or not saved.

Well, they've got different categories for a saint and for Christian.

You could be in the new covenant, but not be one of the elect. Yeah, I.

Don't know if it's doing with that. But when it's saying it seems more expansive and it defines the people of God as a nation. I my mind went to the language in the New Testament where he talks about you're a royal priesthood a holy nation.

When Jesus is talking to the Pharisees the kingdom will be taken away from you and given to a people.

Worthy of bearing fruit. A singular people. Yeah.

But then when talking about who that nation is, he's talking to all different kinds of people that are outside of of Geographic or ethnic. It's he seems to be talking to Christians in that verse. I don't know if that's what the questioners referring to it when he thinks expansive.

Are you talking about the varied uses of like ethnic and the in the Greek? It represents not only Just general peoples, but also foreigners as an out non Jews or or even Greeks at times. But all of these carry the idea of Human beings.

But there are times wherein human beings as to ethnic stand in for for entire governments a nation how we might imagine it currently In certain parts of the world are predominantly still of a specific ethnicity.

And so that's. That's very that that's the closest construct that we have. For ethnic representing a nation and in its governance governmental role. So that you would say ethnic has the same semantic range as we do for our word our English word nation.

Or is it is it a little of the Venn diagram of how he used the word nation today? I believe we have expanded it into Nation station state like the Greek city-state right idea. But it doesn't exclude how we use it today, okay.

Additionally in Psalm 2 if you read it in the Greek it uses ethnic for it says the he then but then it goes on to talk about the people and it uses layoffs and That's that's a fine way of describing it.

It could it could be that loss is all the peoples which would include the The Greeks or the ethnic as in the outsiders. There there's a lot that you could do with the text there it would it would take a deeper study on how the use of loss and ethnic in context together are used but There's it's not excluding governance.

But if they should carry primarily the idea of a people. But like I said in the text there is the use of layoffs as a.

As another type of description for people which goes back to the question is God in covenant with all the nations all the ethnically or just Christians. Because if it's if he's defining a specific nation as Christians You are a nation regarding I'm in covenant with you regarding the New Covenant, right the New Covenant but then like we keep we're referencing Psalm 2 it seems to be Pre dates the New Covenant and something.

What's a messianic prophecy, right?

So, you know, we're eager eager to see you know The promises of Christ and how they're fulfilled and what that looks like in our day. So it's the right instinct to think about that. I actually think the question uses the word nation.

It seems to use the word nation and its full semantic range like it's usually a four people groups and and for Governments or nation-states and that's what I'm kind of picking up on because there's like what four or five questions in there.

So it's really broad how they're using it. So we're trying to try to clarify our terms that's an important part of Answering the question not talking past the person asking the question. Because it's an important thought, you know is Psalm 2 dealing with What the concern is of the question now the concern of the question is a fine thing to ask but is Psalm 2 really talking about that particularly it may be an application of Psalm 2, but it is it part of the interpretation and That's the question.

We have to ask also the question itself bears a presupposition. It carries with it an idea that Covenant is to be Presupposed assumed in God's relationship to man before any relationship ever happens, right?

Like that's the that's the only or the main way that that relationship occurs and so there's it's an interesting presupposition that is born along by a Spade of hermeneutics called covenantalism and so There's a sense in which if you're at the covenant you're covenantalist or you're bringing bringing the confessions to the scripture you have a you have a hermeneutical lens that you're bringing to the scripture and Assuming some things about God and man that God needs to be in Covenant with man in order to be relationship with him.

And so everything begins with the covenant of works and then you move on to the covenant of grace and you have various expressions of this. In scripture as you begin to read through God begins to make covenants with Noah and then with Abram and then with Israel at Sinai and with David and you find that God was in relationship with For instance Adam and Eve and nothing was said about a particular covenant being made.

Again, very involved arguments about whether or not there was one God was in relationship with Noah before he makes a covenant with him. God was in relationship with Abram before he makes a covenant with him.

We see this time and time again. Something seems to be prior and I think that we can simply Rest in this that God is our maker. He's our creator and the fact that he's our creator and we are his creation Made in his image.

We're in relationship to him because of that that seems to be fundamental and primary. And in that regard Everyone who lives is accountable to God made in his image which By definition means we're accountable to him.

We're wearing his uniform and in sin we betray that uniform. We don't we we fall short of the glory of God, which is way Romans 323 says it it's it's not that we break the covenant of works or Fall outside the covenant of grace.

It's not that we break God's moral law different ways of talking about these things can have some helpful connotations, however, what it says is All of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Right, so and this is regarding to what he just says in verse 22, which is You know everyone is Sinful and in need of the righteousness of God.

It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or a Gentile because all I fall short of the glory of God. We're made in God's image, but we don't live up to that. We fall short of that. This is sin. This is a problem and in that regard No matter if we're thinking if we're reading about Things in the Old Testament or reading about things in the New Testament if we're looking at God's relationship to man.

We need to remember the fundamental relationship is creator in creation. That's the fundamental relationship and when it comes to how we get right with God, you know Romans 5 talks about the fact. Well Everyone born in Adam and that's everybody in this room and everyone listening to this podcast.

Everyone born in Adam is wrong with God. Because of Adam's sin and our sin and we're just wrong. What do we need? We need another Adam. We need a new Adam the last Adam. We need somebody else to stand in for us and that is Christ and that comes about in the New Covenant and So in trying to think about how this all works out.

I'm fond of saying that the The covenants meaning what you read about in the old old covenant whether it's you know, Noah Israel Abram David, whatever the covenants are an exposition of creation. They're explaining creation.

They're amplifying creation. They're they're taking this reality of God being creator and us being creation and they're amplifying that they're explaining all sorts of things about that. That what God says to the nations through Israel is.

Hey, I'm the only one there is I'm the only creator. I am God of all of you and you all you know are accountable to me. That's what God says to the nations through Israel in all of his dealings with them.

And so the covenants are an exposition of creation and Therefore the covenants their interpretation is Christ. So the covenants are an exposition of creation with Christ as their interpretation. So as we read through the old covenant For example Israel Israel goes to war.

Israel goes and kills the enemies of God. Israel goes and wipes out idolaters and every last one of them man woman child burning all their stuff and How do we look at that and say how do we interpret that?

Well Israel, okay Israel if the significance of Israel is exhausted in Christ. All right, where is Christ today. Christ is the servant of God. Christ is the Son of God. Christ is the fulfillment of Israel.

What is he doing today? He is still he is in a position of judgment. He judges all the nations. And so when it comes to wickedness and evil and so on and we're told to leave room for wrath. Because God says I will take vengeance.

I will repay. We have confidence that indeed God has appointed a judge of all mankind who will judge the quick and the dead. We have somebody who is the ruler of the kings of the earth who smashes clay pots with his rod of iron a scepter of iron he Reigns now.

He's at the right hand of God. And so If I see a wicked nation going down if I look and I'm watching history Unfold in front of me as as much as I can tell if it's accurate or not. Who knows what I'm being fed, but I'm seeing consequences in the world today and wicked rulers go down.

What do I say? I say Christ is smashing clay pots with his iron scepter. Praise God if I see wicked rulers today prospering I Can take out the Psalms in my own mouth and say God how long? Well, won't you won't you break their teeth and smash their jaw?

And I should I should use the imprecatory Psalms. Trusting in Christ because believing that he will do that in his own good way in his own good time. And when he is finished executing justice It'll be the best ever and I don't have to worry about that.

I can trust him. I can pray to him and ask him for that. And so I know that he's ruling and reigning today. I know that all the judges and kings of the earth are accountable to him all the magistrates are just simply the servants of God the deacons of God and they're all under his authority and Christ is exalted.

Yes. He's exalted as he has brought about the new covenant but that doesn't mean that the wicked rulers and the nations and Their economic trade zones are part of the new covenant. Right when we I would encourage anyone to simply put into their search bar new covenant start reading in Jeremiah and read in Hebrews read in Matthew and When the Bible talks about the new covenant, what do we what are we talking about?

We learn about people forgiven of their sins people born again by the Holy Spirit. People whose whose lives are changed and wrapped up in in Christ we learn of the elect the regenerate the people of faith.

This is the scope of the new covenant. The Old Covenant was particularly focused on Israel. Because it kind of focused on Israel. It was an it was an expansion on what God said to Abraham. It was still centered on what God said to Noah.

It was personified and what God said to David because the entire Old Covenant was personified down to the king. But it was very focused on Israel okay, very good a Big question in the Old Testament was are you in Israel or outside of Israel?

Are you in the camp or outside the camp great concern in the new covenant? Because Christ is the full Exhaustive significance of Israel question is are you in Christ? Are you outside of Christ? And if you're in Christ you have his name therefore Doesn't matter what tribe tongue and people nation you are from in this regard.

You are part of his nation and his kingdom. Now it's to his glory that you were a part of a particular tribe in a particular nation that gives him glory. That we're we are still from all these different tribes and nations and that's a beautiful thing.

It's a good thing. But we are considered one nation Christian. Thank you for mentioning that.

The question the last few questions seem to be focused on. Like the idea of group guilt. Yes. Yeah, like Okay, we've got wicked rulers are we respond like What is the Christians relationship to the nation that?

May inherit specifically says America. So we'll use America. I think when they're talking about lists, maybe I've seen maybe yeah. Yeah, I thought me when I read that I was like is that or ruler certain rulers found on lists maybe but What is the Christian who's part of the new covenant part of that nation?

Is he? Responsible for the nation's guilt. Is there such thing as group guilt when it comes to Say like abortion. What does the Christian have to do with abortion is the Christian responsible for the nation embracing abortion?

Is the church response and I guess that's what the last question. Is the church responsible for? Commune if anything that happens in the nation if if evil is flourishing, is it the church's fault? That I think there's a lot to be dealt with there as far as group guilt and that seems like a.

Another of the presuppositions you talked about about the Old Covenant being brought over into this discussion. And if there's one greater than Moses Then you're in the New Covenant that's greater than the Old Covenant and Wouldn't you not want to be done and rid of the whole national guilt thing if it's not a part of the New Covenant that's my that's kind of my Question and thought on this is it seems that also seem particular to the nation of Israel.

With the the King The King of Israel it shows up like in with David. And the people bear the brunt of the consensus the census and so it it just seems like That's a holdover from that Old Covenant that doesn't seem to spill into the new from what we understand.

Mm-hmm. Yes, so there's a bleed over if if you don't if you don't find the Old Covenant I Think all Christians I think at some point if we were to sit down together no matter what our you know Varied hermeneutic perspective is if we are all coming down to the same table of we believe the Bible is true Jesus is everything let's sit down and have a warm Christian discussion, even though we might have different Starting points and presuppositions when it comes to some of our hermeneutics.

I think we could all sit down and agree with statements like Everything is centered on Jesus. He's the fulfillment of all of God's promises and We would be very very Pro this idea of reading the scriptures as having Jesus as the central idea and light and the fulfillment of God's promises and so I'm not saying this to denigrate a Dispensationalist or a covenant list or whatever.

I'm saying that When we when we're reading the scriptures and we find that Christ is the satisfying fulfillment of all of God's promises. And we got to really lean into that. And when we do Work, we're going to find that there is a real difference a real significant difference between old and new covenant more significant than covenant list generally are comfortable with because again, they're they're They have a desire to push forward what they see to be very healthy Theology from their confessions.

Okay, so they think this is good for the church. It's solid It it is anchoring bracing good for the church. So we're going to bring forward These confessions that are very that are covenantal most historical confessions are going to be very covenantally minded, you know for the Reformation and So pushing that forward there is going to be A not enough emphasis in my humble opinion Between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant because the system being pushed forward is one of a theological Covenantal system of covenant of grace covenant of works covenant of grace and it is not.

Those confessions do not amplify enough what the word talks about the text. But the scripture talks about in terms of creation covenant in Christ so in Allowing the Old Covenant to flow over Into the New Covenant in some of the emphases we get this idea of group guilt corporate guilt.

Okay, and there's a net there's a related thing here by leaving the Old Covenant Somewhat present in the new we have a complication there for a dispensationalist. Holding to the idea of the Old Covenant remains an operation.

It has not yet been fully fulfilled it perhaps suspended until further notice. But it's still a genuine issue out there. It also bleeds into the New Covenant in certain ways so if a dispensationalist we get to this Old Covenant type of thing wherein If you bless Israel your nation prospers.

Okay, and then for the covenantalist side of thing. There's a bleed over in that. If your nation is suffering. Okay, if things are going poorly, it's because the Christians in that nation aren't fervent and zealous enough.

Righteous enough and so the curses have come the covenantal curses have alighted upon us as a nation. But when you go back and you read the the scriptures you have two things that are very very clear.

Those Old Covenant blessings and curses were for Israel and Israel only and Israel. They're seen as God dealt with him as sons. Yeah, so Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 even though even though the founding of America was very Presbyterian and even though our leaders put their hands on an open Bible and put their hands on Deuteronomy 28 and When they were sworn into office.

It's a very Presbyterian covenantalist thing to do. Right, okay, so we have the idea of God blessing us if we bless him. Dispensational side. God blesses us if we bless Israel, so we get this idea. This is a bleed-over.

However, the Bible is very clear that God's covenant at Sinai was with Israel particularly and we also get the very clear idea that this is that this covenant is entirely satisfied in Christ. So we're freed from both of those Frameworks.

When we're trying to figure out how are things going today? I think in the freedom of it we can say all all manner of things that I think are helpful and bring the application. To bear no, we are not responsible for communism.

It's like, you know our failure. It's like so we kind of like we're gonna enable gaze here and say that our Our lack of Name it X Y Z is why? There's so much Racism so much racism. It's it's it's our fault.

We've allowed it. We you know, we have created this racist nation because the church has not been egalitarian enough or or whatever. We caused The Me too. Hashtag me too. That's the church's fault. Transgenderism is is particularly the baddest baddest baddest fault according to cross-politics and and Gayness in general is the Presbyterians fault and all this kind of thing.

We've tried in the course in in the church cause communism is also right the claim so, you know, why why is that the mindset the idea is that Everything that happens is in some form of Covenant. Therefore there's always blessings and curses in every single Covenant.

And so since we're in covenant with God and blessings and curses are always there. Depending on our performance blessings and curses fall. The the the freedom the joy of reading the New Testament and discovering that Christ bore all of our curse and All of God's blessings are for us in him.

That he stands in for Israel that he is the people of God that he is the seed the plural singular He is the the Son of God for us and for our salvation. Then we do not continue to live under this idea of oh I wonder if we're getting cursed or blessed today based on how well we perform.

Yeah, it just seems strange to think that based upon what's happening around you within your own nation-state that Even though we're told that God is pleased with us because we are in Christ that he would somehow be Displeased with us because of those who are not in Christ.

Like that's a weird that's a weird formula for me to try and to try and get figure out that math. Especially if we insist that it's a work of the Spirit that causes someone to be in or out. Anyway, so yeah.

And so the so this is not antinomian ism. Okay, or this is not saying We get to live however we want and there's no consequences in the world in which we live and we don't have to Be considerate of the authority of God anymore.

No, not hardly. Living in Christ's kingdom. He tells us that his view on righteousness and his approach to wisdom is far better than anything that was ever taught before. So he's our authority and we follow him and yes There is blessing in Christ when we when we follow him and abide in him.

There's good for our family good for our churches and the more Christian any people group is and the more Christ honoring their magistrates are the better off. It is to live in all the many blessed. You know nature of living in the second Adam, he knows what's best for humanity.

So obviously the more aligned we are with him the better off our society is.

Christ Fulfilled Israel, Not the Church as a Replacement Nation

I was thinking about this. There's a lot of talk about covenant theology and replacement theology. And it seems like with the Presbyterians the church is the new Israel. And so you just pick up the old and plop it and so we have to live the same way.

We have to keep we have to keep that covenant because if we don't keep that covenant, we'll get the cursings but then We've talked about this in the past in Isaiah. It doesn't say that. The church is the new Israel and when it talks about the covenant it wraps it all up in a person.

Isaiah 42 6 I the Lord have called you and righteous you being the servant he's talking he he goes from talking about the nation of Israel and he starts talking about a Singular person a servant. He says I Lord have called you in righteousness and will hold your hand I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people as a light to the Gentiles and that's Jesus so when the church tries to say We are the the nation of Israel They're taking up something that belongs to Christ and he's the one that fulfills it.

It's all satisfied in him. They're trying to keep something that they're not meant to keep. Christ kept it and we're in him we're not him and to be fair, I think.

Presbyterians especially regarding covenantalism would say that Israel was always the church. Not so much that the church is the new Israel, but that oh, yeah, Israel was always the church. I would think be it more Baptist be more Baptist to say something along the lines of.

Because there's more discontinuity and Baptist covenant theology than there is in Presbyterian. But yes, that's a very good observation. So when they're making that or when they're making that assumption, are they using like the language in Romans like Romans like 9 through 11?

To say that or were they just they would read that passage in that way, right? Okay, okay so to To Observe that is to note one of many different notes of continuity and again, I I am I am Encouraged by my brothers in Christ to take up the Word of God and say There is harmony here.

There is beauty that everything here is coherent. God is not changing his mind. He's not capricious. This is this is all flowing together. I agree. I agree with that sentiment. I don't think that Covenant is The integrating light of the scripture and all of life.

I think that's Jesus Christ personally himself and they'd have to say yes to that and they would absolutely. And we can rejoice in that and we would agree with that. But in practice it would just be a little bit off in in the covenants direction, right in in practicality.

It is not merely semantics, right and there is a lot more Particularity there that needs to be fleshed out I think. And those are the assumptions that we are kind of seeing within this question right here.

Correct like that. It seems even if you are not Questioner, even if you are not necessarily a covenantalist Explicitly There's just some of that in there. So if we're a little bit off with this Expand ask us another question.

And try and nail down where you're actually getting some of this coming from. I Would say just one last word on how do we know that the New Covenant is not bearing forth? Generational curses or that the sin of You know this group Impacts all of the rest.

Not only do we have Christ bearing our curse On the tree and we have that language in Galatians and and and and so on. And also we have very clear Descriptions of the fact that we do not live under the law.

We do not live under the Old Covenant. Okay, that that that system has been satisfyingly resolved in Christ. We also have in Jeremiah 31 In verse Verse 29 in Talking about the days to come about the a new covenant Jeremiah 31 29 says in those days.

They shall say no more. The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. But everyone shall die for his own iniquity every man who eats the sour grapes his teeth Shall be set on edge behold the days are coming says the Lord when I'll make a new covenant With the house of Israel with the house of Judah, of course.

This is particularly satisfied in Christ he says not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to Land of Egypt my covenant which they broke and so on so in this we do not have today a situation like living in the days of Josiah a good king and so we're gonna have a nice reprieve and a little bit of blessing but he's not going to have a long reign and he's going to die and The people who live in his wake are going to be punished for the sins of his grandfather Manasseh.

The fact that his 50-year reign of terror and blood then God will see vengeance upon the fourth generation. That's the way the Old Covenant worked. And in fact, that's you know, that's the way that God said it in the Ten Commandments and so on.

That's the way that the Old Covenant worked. That's not the way the New Covenant works and if we are explicitly told that That there's something fundamentally different about the New Covenant and one of those things is These people over here are not being punished by God for the sins of these people over here, right?

So Then I have a question about the noetic effects of sin if that that's true, right like in but can we have people who are outside of the New Covenant who are not in Christ and yet you have three or four generations of Men or women of the same family Committing the same sins due to know what if noetic effects of sin because that doesn't do away with that, right?

No, I mean and again, we use the term three or four generation because it's biblical language, right? Often people will latch on to that and they start talking about Generational curses and they need to be delivered from them and blah blah blah.