Open Air Theology "AI generated hot takes" with Andrew Rappaport

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00:00

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

00:35

Sheep among misfits. A misfit in the trailer park at night.

00:41

A misprint with a sixth sense. Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.

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My two cents never made sense. Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

00:52

My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop? Tell me what's the bottom line.

01:01

The bottom line is I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left.

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And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in. My theology don't fit in.

01:31

Black sheep of the Reformation. Sheep pan. Sheep are reformed. I'm just another Baptist.

01:37

Baptized again. The bastard child. It's the child of Reformation.

01:43

Society. Boob chef of dead men.

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Cigars. Bourbons. And beer cans. Bow ties. Tattoos. That intro.

02:19

Every time it gets me. I love it. What is a great song? Yes. Well, I'm Brayden Patterson.

02:26

This is Open Air Theology. I think the viewers tonight, if you're chiming in, I think you're in for a treat as we have a special guest with us tonight.

02:35

But before we get to that gentleman, I'll introduce myself and I'll pass the mic over to Tom to let him introduce himself.

02:41

But I'm Brayden Patterson. I'm the pastor of Grace Bible Church in Moorpark, California. It's in Ventura County.

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If you live in that area, it'd be a great blessing to see you at church in Moorpark coming here soon.

02:53

So I will pass the mic now that direction to Brother Tom. Hey, everybody.

02:59

My name is Tom Sheppard. I'm a member of Grace Bible Church of Burney, Texas, not Moorpark. So same church name, but different state.

03:08

We're free here in the state of Texas. And I head up the Open Air Evangelism team that we go out to Fredericksburg, Kerrville, Burney, San Antonio, far south is

03:20

Christy. And I had a great Lord's Day today. And today, special guest down below, striving for eternity, the rap report,

03:32

Andrew Rapaport. Pass it down to you, brother. Well, I clearly came prepared.

03:38

You know, I got my reform beard on just for you guys. I got my cigar right here.

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So I'm all ready. I know where I'm at. I'm I'm set for the record.

03:50

My beard is longer than Braden's. But I knew you had to go there.

03:58

That ever again. But my name is Andrew Rapaport. I'm with striving for eternity. My podcast, as Tom mentioned, is

04:05

Andrew Rapaport's rap report. I also do Apologetics Live, which is you can find it

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ApologeticsLive .com, Thursday nights, eight to ten. But most people are listening here at Open Air Theology at that time.

04:17

But you can always listen later to us. And I go to and my name, church name won't sound like any of yours.

04:22

It is Oxford Valley Chapel in Levittown, Pennsylvania. Awesome.

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Love it. Oh, it was it was good. But I do want to say before we jump right into asking

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Lord's Day questions, if you haven't already, go to Open Air Theology on YouTube and subscribe to our new

04:41

YouTube channel. That's where this is mainly being streamed from. Open Air Theology on YouTube. We'd love for you to go and check that out.

04:48

We'll be doing this every Sunday at 730 Mountain Standard Time, 830 Central Time.

04:54

And then unfortunately for Andrew, 930 Eastern Time. When he agreed to do a night show, you thought it was going to be 830 your time.

05:04

Hi, Andrew. That is correct. Yeah, I get up. I get up about four or three thirty a .m.

05:11

So. You know, but you know, I mean, if you want a good thing to do when you get up that early is jump into a nice cold plunge and you'll be wide awake for the rest of the day.

05:23

I don't see how you do that. I saw that you posted on Facebook. It was like 26 degrees, 26 degrees outside this morning and 50 degrees in the cold plunge.

05:33

So the cold warmed up. I actually did not want to get out of the cold plunge because it was warmer in the cold plunge than getting out.

05:41

Yes. Andrew, that's too cold, brother. My my my son in law.

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We had family over yesterday. My son in law convinced all of all of his male cousins to do the cold plunge.

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And even my son, who I didn't think would ever do one, but they they all got jumped into the cold plunge.

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It was hilarious. Of course, I went in first to make it look easy. And then they jumped in like, yeah, it was great.

06:10

Hey, how was everybody's Thanksgiving, by the way? Did you guys?

06:15

Mine was great. I don't want to interrupt Andrew, but mine was fantastic. My we went and spent time with the family, my in -laws.

06:23

We were able to have steak, tri -tip steak instead of turkey. I'm always going to take steak.

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I know that might be sacrilege, but I'm going to take steak every time. So it was good stuff.

06:36

It was a blessing. I believe that the pilgrims had lasagna. And so, yeah,

06:43

I try to avoid the turkey. We're my sister in law was very gracious and and had some penny vodka that she put aside just for me.

06:54

So my my my wife and I, we went over to some friends of ours at our church, Derek Kennedy, and they actually have a a tradition at their house.

07:04

And I don't know if it's true or not, but they they get five pieces of corn. And and apparently the pilgrims in the very first Thanksgiving, they actually got five pieces of pieces of corn and they would say a prayer over it over that.

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And they would talk about that's all they actually had on the first Thanksgiving.

07:24

They didn't have much at all. And so they started with those five pieces of corn and things after that.

07:30

They were just talking about how God has blessed them. So I don't know if it's true. It sounded like a good story. So I went with it.

07:37

It might have been five pieces of corn and lasagna, but there was definitely lasagna. Definitely lasagna.

07:44

No turkey. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Well, how was your guys'

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Lord's Day today? So if you're new to Open Air Theology, you haven't seen this show before. Again, subscribe to the

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YouTube channel. We'd love to see you back again. But we typically start out our shows talking about our Lord's Day since we're streaming this on the on a

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Sunday. And so we want to talk about what our church experience was like. What was the worship about?

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What was the message about anything along those lines that we want to mention? And I think we should let

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Andrew go first. Are you OK with that, Tom? All right. Just this once.

08:19

That's because after this, I'll never be on again. Yeah. I mean, it was a great

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Lord's Day for another reason. I was able to be joined by my daughter and son -in -law and my grandson.

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So that alone made it a wonderful day just to have them with us.

08:39

But the message today was on the Passover and looking at Christ as the

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Passover lamb. So we started out in Exodus chapter 12, looking at what the Passover was, then going into looking at the

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Passover lamb. And so it was really good. And then we got to just really follow that up as he goes into Hebrews and looking at Christ as the lamb and then going right from there into the

09:09

Lord's Supper, which we communion service that we had today. So it worked out very well. Good.

09:15

That's awesome. Yeah. How was your day, Tom? So it was really good. So, well, I'll tell you.

09:20

So our pastor, Michael Beck, he got he had a he had a bug, a stomach bug or something.

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And he was able to preach his sermon out of Romans 15 today. And so he called.

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Matter of fact, so we normally do like like equipping very, very early in the morning or going over theology three right now.

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And and we're talking about the atonement. And so he called one of one of the guys at our church.

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His name is Terry Riley at seven thirty in the morning to take over the

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Sunday school class to talk about theology, you know, to take over for that. And he he taught a class on the atonement in first Peter, which is fantastic.

10:04

And then Frank filled in for him in a sermon that he had prepared.

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I guess he had it kind of, you know, in his back pocket. And that was in Micah, too.

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And then this evening it was we had a guest preacher. Actually, he's a member of our church and he's been going to the master seminary and graduated.

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And so he was able to give his very first sermon from the pulpit, from our church tonight.

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And that was on Psalm 119, talking about how to be sanctified in walking through the

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Lord. And that was all about, you know, just immersing ourselves in the word. So it was a really it was a really good

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Lord's Day. What about you? Yeah, it was it was a blessed day. I didn't

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I didn't preach today. So last Sunday was my last time preaching behind the pulpit at Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman.

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And so the the pastor that has taken the reins from me, he got to preach today.

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And so he went over. I just kept on continuing into the book of Galatians where we left off last. And so he was in the fruit of the spirit text.

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And so it was a blessing just to sit and worship God with one another.

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It was it was really sweet. Just a lot of preparation, a lot of bittersweet moments right now.

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I got given a letter today from a wonderful brother and sister in Christ that,

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I mean, Emily and my wife and I, we were just tearing up reading it.

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It was it was a very sweet letter that they wrote. So just very, very kind. So, yeah, this week is the week that we're making the transition to go to Moorpark, California.

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And so it's the move is going to be 13 hours in a car with kids. It's going to be intense.

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And what day is that? It's going to be Friday and we'll get there on Saturday. So we're going to cut that drive up into two different days.

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Spend one night somewhere in between. It's going to be fun. Wow. 13 hours with the kids.

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Get the iPads and earmuffs on them. Five -year -old, three -year -old and one -year -old.

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13 -hour car ride. Hey, just real quick before we go any further and everything. Jeff wasn't able to make it on tonight.

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But, you know, he might surprise us later. He has in the past. He's been, I don't know if you guys have seen the pictures of his church and everything that is coming along with the building.

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Man, it's beautiful. He's really doing a good job. He's unable to make it tonight.

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But who knows? Who knows? He might all of a sudden appear backstage and we could pop him on. I can show some pictures of it real fast if you want.

12:38

Yeah, let's do it. Because I think it looks phenomenal. They're doing a good job with it right now.

12:43

And while you're pulling the pictures up, you know, I really noticed that the way you guys have this laid out just with whoever your guest is ends up being having

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Jeff looking down on them. Just look at that. Right to my left here, you've got

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Jeff staring at me like I'm saying something or like I'm just scared to say anything because it looks like Jeff is giving me the evil eye there.

13:05

That's where we've got all the guests right there. Yeah. I'm between that and someone in the audience from my channel just said, is that a goat smoking a cigar there in the other side?

13:16

Yeah. The folks who are, you know, you just got to look at the image you guys got here. Yeah. Let's see it here.

13:24

Yeah. So this is, this is just a zoomed in with we'll click this. That'll be better.

13:29

Probably. So that's from the pulpit. Yeah. From the pulpit. So Jeff built this with himself, got a really nice piece of top wood that's there on top, obviously.

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And then it looks like it's in front of the pulpit there. Some picture of the pews with the new floor that they got done there.

13:48

And the carpet. I like the carpet going all the way up. The carpet. Yeah. It looks, it's going to be perfect for those altar calls that Jeff does all the time.

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Just kidding. Jeff doesn't do that. He's going to get on here in a second and try to defend himself. He won't defend himself.

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He's going to rebuke you. That's right. Rightfully so. At least, you know how to get

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Jeff to come on, you know, like he's probably like, listen, he's staying with his wife right now, honey. I know

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I said, it's been some family time, but I got to correct this brother. I got to go. Well, you know what's cool is that we actually have to get to have the conference at his church this year.

14:27

That's right. Yeah. That'd be a much nicer setting than, than the other, the other year.

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Last year was just, it wasn't a, it was, it was a set up in a place that was for, for theater.

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It just really wasn't. It wasn't a good flow. Right. This actually has a church feel and the whole bit.

14:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then maybe this is a good time just to put the plug in for this, this

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February 20th, the February 20th to the 22nd, Tullahoma, Tennessee at that church.

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I don't have the address off the top of my head, but it will be let that church most likely there's going to be a conference called war and you can buy your tickets for this at open air theology conference .org.

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Go there, check it out. It's going to be a conference on sanctification. The three men that you see on the screen right now are going to have the privilege of being able to preach there.

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And so that's one reason that we want to invite Andrew on here. Not only is Andrew a good brother in Christ, not only is somebody that is enjoyable to talk with, not only is he somebody that you can joke with, which

15:33

I really thoroughly appreciate he's, he's going to be preaching at this next conference. And so Andrew, what, what are you preaching on?

15:41

If you could encourage people to come to it, maybe, maybe you don't want to encourage people to come to it. Maybe, maybe not.

15:47

Tell, tell us about the conference and why you think people should come. Yeah, well, first off, folks want to, you can search for open air theology conference.

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You'll be able to get all the details, the tickets there. I do want to encourage you to check it, check that out and make sure that you get your tickets.

16:03

Um, and for, you know, last year I did appreciate that I was first up and being first up was great because it meant that, uh,

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I didn't have to be better than anybody because everyone else was better than me and it was fine.

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But now I'm, I'm going after Keith Foskey and before Jeffrey rice, I want to know who

16:25

I upset to get in that position, you know, but, uh, but yeah, the, the topic that, that I have is to deal with something that I think a lot of people might think is a done deal.

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The fact that Donald Trump won, there's people that think like, Oh, social justice is over. We won this battle.

16:49

Um, and, and so I'm going to be dealing with, you know, the idea of Christians in the wool culture, but it's actually out of Colossians chapter two, which, which right there, like chapter two, verse eight, the same arguments that people are making for wokeness within and social justice within the church is no different than what

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Paul was dealing with. The, the empty, you know, traditions and, and philosophy, human philosophy of his day.

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And so, uh, very interesting study. I'm not going to give away the good parts, but it's been a lot of fun studying that because the, the, it was real interesting.

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The word usages that Paul uses there in verse eight to describe how this empty, these empty philosophies capture people.

17:41

I'm just going to leave it at that. So if you want to hear more, go buy a ticket.

17:47

That's right. Well, no, no, not, not just buy a ticket, actually show up, show up and be, be ready to bring a pen and notebook and, and be ready for fellowship.

17:58

The fellowship at these conferences is through the roof. Uh, you can't, it's just the atmosphere and everything that gets set up there is phenomenal.

18:06

I know, Andrew, you, you agree with that just the way that, you know, this is the thing I've said to Jeff is, you look,

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I, I, I've been to a lot of conferences, right? Whether, whether speaking or attending and the way

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Jeff organized it the very first year I told him, I said, this, this is the best organization. He added an extra day.

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So you have the same amount of preaching time, but it was like one hour preaching, one hour fellowship. So everyone had time to fellowship because that's he.

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And he was right. Most people go to conferences for the fellowship. Preaching is great, but a lot of times what, at a lot of conferences, you don't listen to any of the messages cause you're fellowshipping or you'll listen to some of them.

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And what people do is they pick and choose what Jeff decided to do was to say, no, no, let's make sure we have the fellowship time and that everyone pays attention to the message.

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Also by, by structuring in such a way where half of the conference is fellowship time.

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And then it ends in time for dinner. and the, I think that really the best part of the conference is after the conference is over, we all go out to dinner and this is something, look, if this, the conference is live streamed, you're not getting this.

19:18

Right. And that is after dinner, we're sitting at Buffalo, wild wings or wherever, and just having, you know, a really good theology throw down, just, just discussing different topics, different theological positions as brothers in Christ.

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But really discussing it biblically, meaning not that we're all in a, in agreement, but we're all doing it with love and charity.

19:41

We can sit there and, and hear someone out and disagree with them and fight. And then, you know, have a meal and, and, and laugh with one another.

19:49

Yeah. You know, the other thing, the benefit of that is it's not just a fellowship with the attenders.

19:56

The, the, this is unlike any other conference that I've been to. You don't have the speakers that are hiding behind a wall or a door, a door, you know, trying to get in to actually get to talk to them.

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The, all the speakers are fellowshipping the entire time with, with the entire, all, all of the group of the attenders.

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So you're having talk, coffee, you know, you, you get to hear live podcasts that were going on. Keith Foskey has one.

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The Holy note is going to have one. I mean, there's all kinds of podcasts going on. I think

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James White had one last year. And, and so you're hanging around and then you're just talking theology, you know, those with everybody take free to take pictures, you know, and it's, it's just a blast.

20:38

The fellowship is second to none at this conference. I think it's, it's one of those, it, you just can't beat it.

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Let me, let me screen share just the, the webpage real fast that you're looking for, for anybody that's wanting to look into this conference.

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This is the webpage is open air theology conference .org. It should look like this for you on the front.

20:57

Just, just to show you the, some of these speakers, we have Michael Schultz, Jeff Rice, brain

21:04

Patterson, myself, Tom Shepard, Hensworth, Jonas, Andrew Rappaport, Keith Foskey, Marlon Wilson, Sam Waldron, Austin Keeler, Kofi and brother.

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Every time I go to pronounce. Thank you, Andrew. You came in clutch there, Mark Chansky and Claude Ramsey.

21:21

And listen, this is going to be such a blessing to be able to sit and hear these men preach. And then to fellow, like, like Tom just said, you're going to fellowship with these guys.

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You're going to be able to meet them. You're going to be able to go up and sit down with them, get a cup of coffee with them, go and get dinner with them.

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It's going to be fantastic. And then it's going to be also a debate, a Jeremiah Nortier versus Lucas right here on can believer lose his salvation.

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There's some of the partnering. There's a pre -conference on the 19th that you won't want to miss out on too. If you can make it to that, Pre -conference is going to be on evangelism.

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And the neat thing that we're going to do is after the conference is over on Saturday night, we're all going to go out and do some evangelism.

22:02

Yep. So, you know, that's, that's going to be a lot of fun. I appreciate you saying that brother.

22:08

Yes, it is going to be a lot of fun. And that's one thing. Everybody does open air evangelism and in pre like everybody does it differently.

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And so as a pastor, I always love watching other people do it to be able to take those tools and be able to adapt it to my own style.

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And then to also be involved with it. It's, it's going to be really neat. I'm really looking for that.

22:26

Uh, Kenny and Claire are making a return again. Uh, they were at the last conference blessing to listen to them, but yeah, you're just going to come here, purchase tickets.

22:33

And we really do hope to see you this coming February. Um, it'd be awesome.

22:39

It'd be awesome. You know, with Kenny and Claire, you know, I had never heard them before until this conference or last year in February, they were absolutely fantastic.

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And then I saw him again, matter of fact, this past year, um, at a conference in, uh, in Tyler, Texas.

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And no, where was it? Um, East Texas somewhere. Um, and it was, I mean, they were just rock solid, fantastic, you know, um, great.

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I mean, if you don't have their album, I mean, definitely get it there. They came and played for our church here in Hagerman, a town of 900 people.

23:14

The connections that you make at this conference is going to be phenomenal. And I'm telling you, each one of these people that are involved with this are part of a local body.

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They want you to be plugged into a local body, sitting underneath your own pastor, or if you're a pastor, come and attend this.

23:29

I think, I think the blessings are, are a long list of reasons why you should come and attend this.

23:36

Yeah. I think the song, the one that I like of theirs real quick, it's, it's, it's called, are you weary, man?

23:43

That's great. And Brayden cries no matter what, but I almost even cried on that song. Rappaport might even cry.

23:52

When you guys hear this song, it's just fantastic. If you want to see your Andrew Rappaport cry, come

23:58

February. Icicles though, with you getting in all those cold plunges, my guy, you know,

24:06

I should, I should, I should bring a portable cold plunge and see who's, who's gonna, who's willing to do that first thing in the morning.

24:13

Oh, I can answer that right now. Andrew. No, for me, throwing you in.

24:20

All right. Well, brothers, I know we don't have a long time tonight. So again, let me tell the audience, go check out open air theology conference.

24:28

Also go subscribe to our YouTube channel. Open air theology. It's a new YouTube channel on there that we'd love for you to go check out.

24:34

We're wanting to expand and, and eventually get on Spotify and that'll hopefully be in the future. But can

24:40

I, yes, go ahead, go ahead. So, so we did not know what we were going to do the show on tonight.

24:47

And we're like, what in the world? You know, we, I mean, we try, we ask you guys sometimes and you know what, what do we need to hear and stuff like that.

24:55

So I was like, Hey, Brayden, why don't we ask AI? Why don't we ask

25:00

AI what we should do the show on? And so I asked AI and they said that a good show would be, how about reform

25:08

Baptist? we're going to do a show that's not just hot takes. So hot takes agree or disagree is a dynamic and engaging topic that invites lively discussion for audience interaction.

25:19

And so, and so we have some questions here. So it's basically this AI has, has, has created or generated their own questions.

25:29

And you as the audience, we're going to send it to you. We're going to tell you guys, I'm going to ask, basically ask the first question is this.

25:36

Do you agree or disagree? Spurgeon would have hated modern worship services and go.

25:48

I think also maybe could we lay it like, lay it like ground, like less caveats to how to answer these questions, the better.

25:58

We have to answer this. Hold on. Yeah, I see. I know which one you were putting up there. Oh no.

26:07

So, so the, the, the question that Troy is asking is, is Rappaport a DSP?

26:13

The answer is Rappaport is a report Ian. And so therefore, yes, it's, he's biblical tonight.

26:23

Tonight. He's not a DSP. He has a cigar and he has a beard. So he's, yeah, I'm ready for this show.

26:29

I'm all set. I got, I got my cigar and the, and the, and the beard for the show. So, so look,

26:35

I could say this, Troy, R .C. Sproul and I agree today. Oh my goodness.

26:44

I'm being a Baptist, not covenant theology, not get out of here.

26:50

Okay. We're getting rid of that question. Come to the conference.

26:56

If you want to see us argue more about this. So where were you going to go? Where were you going to go with this on, on the, on the question?

27:02

It's like what I'm saying is, is let's not, like give too much background to why we answer the way that we answer, because I'm going to say,

27:10

I think Spurgeon would be upset with our modern worship. yeah.

27:15

So I think we have to ask the question, you know, and, and also it would be, you know, it'd really depend on where he went.

27:21

If he's going to Osteen's church, he's going to grow up. You know, if he's, what about, what about in a, in a modern day reformed

27:33

Baptist church, somebody who would label themselves or a reformed Baptist confessional church. Would he still, would he find himself acceptable to worship at a church like that?

27:43

First off, you got the, you got choice thing going responding to me going, we forgive you brother. So orthodox

27:51

MacArthur is great. He says, I was wondering how long did this be question would take as a matter of fact, just to throw this in there.

28:02

Uh, uh, there, there was one matter of fact, no, it wasn't him. Somebody else,

28:07

Brandon Scalf had James White preaching at the church today. Yes, yes, he did. I thought that that was cool, but it wasn't you.

28:14

So anyway, well, yeah. So I think, I think the thing to answer the question is, and you were kind of hitting on this

28:21

Tom is we got to get to asking the question of what defines modern worship, right? Because like you said,

28:29

I mean, a Joel Osteen church versus a reformed Baptist church is going to be a vast difference. Sure.

28:34

So I'll say this, would he, would he be okay with health song or elevation or Bethel?

28:44

No, that I think we can clearly see because a big part of the end of his ministry was talking about the downgrade.

28:52

The fact that the church was starting to give into the culture and was on a downgrade from what he, the way he saw it.

29:01

And it was compromising. And so I think that looking at sound like that, he would have had a strong view against this compromise of using music to lure people into feeling good about things that are not biblical about churches that teach things.

29:19

And they use biblical lyrics at times to pull people into go, Oh, but look, this song is good, but, but they've been open about the fact that they use their music as a hook to evangelize to use that word

29:33

Christians. That's their audience. Right? So let's tighten up the question a little bit.

29:39

Let's tighten it up and say, would Spurgeon or let's even go beyond Spurgeon.

29:44

Would the Puritans, if they were to go into your church today, would they run or would they worship?

29:54

Would they even allow musical instruments? Some of them, that's a good, yeah. I mean, that's right. I mean, there's some of them that would, would be against that.

30:02

So you have a piano or an organ and they might have an issue. Sure. Yeah. Some would say that if you're not doing the

30:10

Psalms. Sure. Yes. We're looking at sovereign grace music today with Spurgeon kind of go, what is this?

30:18

Or would he join in? And yeah, it's a good question. I don't know.

30:23

I was thinking about opening songs that were cartoons. Right. Yeah. I was thinking of winding the question too, with, with it not just being narrowed in on like Puritans and liking the music part of our worship.

30:34

But I don't think Spurgeon would be happy with how a lot of modern evangelicals go about church altogether, whether it's,

30:41

I think Andrew, you mentioned it. There's songs that are trying to be the hook to get people to come in and be evangelized to how many church activities do we use?

30:52

That are not centered on the gospel. That's just meant for come in and enjoy the soccer activity.

30:58

Come in and enjoy. You know what I mean? Like I think Spurgeon is rolling over in his grave in that way. Towards modern evangelical.

31:06

Across the board. Programs and everything to. Yeah. And, and Spurgeon was one that had a lot of ministries, but I wouldn't necessarily label them programs too.

31:16

He was actually doing gospel ministry. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They had their church used to go out and still does go out and do street preaching.

31:25

Yeah. The church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that what

31:31

Spurgeon was against in what he referred to as the downgrade is a lot of what we see in today.

31:39

What. You know, used to be called the seeker sensitive, the church growth movement, this idea of appealing to culture to try to attract unbelievers to come to church unbelievers.

31:53

Church is not for the unbeliever. If an unbeliever feels comfortable in church, then you're not preaching the

32:01

Bible rightly. Right. Because they should either feel uncomfortable under the word of God, under conviction, or they're coming to repentance.

32:09

But when they feel comfortable, when, when the unbeliever is, is feeling like,

32:15

Hey, yeah, I, I enjoy coming here. It's a good time. Yeah. That's not a good thing.

32:21

As if it was a social event. Yeah. Correct. And I think that Spurgeon would be against it.

32:28

Not just in, as, as you know, I think it was Brayden that said it in not just the singing and the choice of songs, but how the preaching is being done.

32:39

Yeah. The much of what goes on in many church services and I'll I'm going to, well, maybe

32:46

I'll get myself in trouble. I credit or slash blame this on the charismatic movement, but much of what the charismatic movement has influenced is an emotional based worship experience.

33:01

Yeah. And their church services are just that it's, it's actually kind of a, a condemnation on the more conservative cessationist churches that in charismatic magazine in the 1990s was blasting the fundamentals.

33:17

Baptists because the fundamentals Baptist would play the charismatic songs in their worship service.

33:25

Yeah. And charismatic magazine made the point of saying, these songs are designed for our emotional worship services that you guys condemn.

33:37

Yeah. And yet you seek them in your service. And I, it's maybe one of the only times

33:42

I agree with charismatic magazine, but it is the, so much of the, the worship service, not just the singing, but worship is also the preaching.

33:54

Everything that goes on in service should be for the awe of who God is. That's what worship means to be in awe of God.

34:00

And so, or in all of whoever you're worshiping, Our worship service should bring us in a state of awe before God.

34:09

Much of the worship service in many churches today are nothing more than making people feel good.

34:16

Even about their sin, not only got to change, God accepts you the way you are.

34:22

God just had a human holes, you know, emptiness in his heart and he needed you to fill it for him.

34:28

Right. I mean, that's what so much of, of the church today is, is about me feeling good.

34:36

And that is not what Spurgeon, the Puritans, they would, they would be having a, a fit over that.

34:44

Yeah. I like that you put, you know, that, that when we go to worship, that we should be in awe of God and there should be a, a trembling at his word that we're going to the, to worship the

34:54

Lord, to hear God speak, you know, the, the preached word, the weightiness of the word that God, that you are going to worship the creator of the heavens and the earth, that God is completely other than we are.

35:08

You know, he is, he is magnificent. We should be trembling and, and, and, and with reverence in the fear of the

35:16

Lord and worshiping him. And I think that's gone. I don't, I don't see that in a lot of places today.

35:22

Well, because most of what we, what we call churches are nothing more than goat farms.

35:31

Yeah. Yeah. It is what it is. Yeah. I, my mind, when you were just talking about that, when both of you guys were saying that we, we have faith in a

35:43

God, the God that when, when Christ returns, unbelievers will seek out the mountains to fall upon them.

35:52

And yet we get so worried about offending unbelievers in a church service.

35:58

Yeah. Like what? Like let's, let's make them feel comfortable and happy.

36:03

No, that's not what this is about. Nothing should be making them feel comfortable or happy.

36:08

It should be focusing and force focus, try and have them be focused upon who

36:14

God is and how that's the only means of salvation is placing faith in the finished work of Christ. Right.

36:19

Yeah. And we're not, I mean, we're not trying to make them feel uncomfortable and people to understand, like Brayden and I are not saying they should feel like that.

36:28

We should purposely try to make them feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Shake, shake their hands with the left hand. Just be weird and awkward.

36:34

That's no, no, but we, we, the, the preaching from the pulpit it's look, if you're going to a church on Sunday and I'll give you my pet peeve.

36:48

So hot take, should churches sing happy birthday in a worship service?

36:53

No. Okay. Why? The church service, the worship service is a, not about us.

37:02

It's about God. And that's where all the focus should be. It shouldn't be on me feeling, making myself feel good or trying to make others feel good.

37:12

It is for an audience of one. Every individual is there to an audience of one.

37:18

When, when you're corporately singing, when you are listening to the proclamation of the word, when you're fellowshipping, when you're giving all of that is for an audience of one,

37:28

God, you and God. That's well said.

37:34

Andrew. Yeah. Absolutely. That's well said.

37:40

So here's, here's the, here's another question. You guys ready or no, let's hear it. Small groups are unbiblical agree or disagree.

37:52

Well, this way. And this, this may throw

37:58

Brayden into whatever he was going to say. You're going to have a tough time with that. If you, if you take a look at the book of Nehemiah, I say that for this reason, after they build the wall, you end up seeing that you had the high priest who, who starts reading the word.

38:17

And then you have it breaking down into the, the Levites and that start to go into small groups, explaining what was just preached.

38:27

So it'll be, wait a second. Did you just see, did you just see a continuity between Israel and the church?

38:34

No, I'm just saying that if you're going to say biblical, that we do see, we do see the word taught and then explained in smaller groups.

38:45

So we're talking biblical. That is a good point. Matter of fact, I would even say that the, that the early church was built on small groups.

38:53

Yeah. Now I, I'm going to say this Tom to that. Yeah. I do think what's unbiblical is as one of my pastors referred to it, a show your ignorance study.

39:05

Yeah. Where everyone comes in and says, what does this mean to me? I don't care what it means to you.

39:11

I'm sure what it means. Yeah. I'm, I'm okay with the small groups.

39:16

I think that they, I think that they can be dangerous though. I think that there needs to be leadership still within involved, involved with those small groups.

39:26

But I think, I think that's where a lot of discipleship can take place. I think that's where a lot of good counseling can take place and, and meaningful prayer and fellowship can take place in those smaller groups.

39:38

I mean, honestly, I was saved at a small group. So like, you got saved.

39:53

Yeah. So I, I agree with you that there, that there needs to be a qualification of, of a, of a small group.

40:00

You're just not having a group of people meeting willy nilly. You need to have somebody that's able to teach, able to be able to, to handle the word of God rightly, number one, so that people don't go off in straights.

40:14

It's good to have a confession. I would also say that. Yeah. Back that up with, but so it's interesting that we bring that up because not just this past election in the state of Texas, they are actually mandating that the

40:31

Bible be taught in schools today. Now here's the question though.

40:36

Yes. It's going to teach. Correct. Yeah. Because, because what's going to be taught.

40:42

Right. That's right. Yeah. Here's a, here's a really crazy thing.

40:47

Yeah. If you guys never heard of Carl Kirby jr. Some people know of Carl Kirby.

40:53

He used to work with vacuum. Huh? He invented the vacuum, right? That guy, Kirby Kirby.

41:00

Yeah. No. Oh, you know, he's Mormon. Tom, I don't know what you did with the money that your parents gave you for humor lessons, but clearly you didn't spend it on that.

41:16

So Carl Kirby jr. Has a ministry that goes into looking at video games and, and he shows people that most of the culture, the younger culture learns the

41:28

Bible from what they're taught in video games, which is not what the Bible actually teaches.

41:34

They, he goes through video games and shows how they purposely will misquote and, and misinterpret the

41:40

Bible to give people this feeling. The Bible's condemning things that it never even talks about and, and stuff like that.

41:47

And so what I'm a fearful of Tom, with what you're saying is the fact that you'll have unregenerate people that are going to be teaching the

41:58

Bible and leading people to believe the Bible teaches things it does not teach.

42:03

And they're going to believe it because they don't actually read the Bible. They're going to just listen to what is being taught about it.

42:11

Now, if it's, I would say this, if that was something where everyone was required to read through the

42:18

Bible in a year, like in their, in the classroom, like just spend that time just reading scripture would be beneficial.

42:27

I'd be totally good for that. Yes. Yeah. But when you actually have somebody explaining the text and telling you what it means, you know, you could go to the creation of media and you can, you can see that going haywire.

42:40

Maybe when we, maybe we could give this a suggestion. They read the, they read the Bible and any explanation, they just read the

42:48

John MacArthur study Bible notes. Yeah. We encourage you to get the notes.

42:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's see here.

43:03

Hey, for a hot take question. I just, I'm going to throw this one in here. I knew that. I know this was in your, in your list there, but Braden Patterson beard or mustache.

43:16

Ooh. I'm actually in this. I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat right now. I want to see what people say.

43:23

So people in the audience, we need to, we gotta give this one some time for people to, to, you know, put their, their suggestions.

43:31

Tom, you're going to have to go first on this one. Patterson beard or mustache. You know,

43:38

I'm waiting on the beard. So I'm hoping by February, it's at least as full as wrap reports.

43:53

That would be nice. That's what I'm praying for. The, I was actually having this conversation with my wife just the other day while we were driving to see the in -laws for Thanksgiving, was just saying like, what, what do you like better?

44:05

And she, she said that she likes both of them. She said that she definitely likes me with facial hair of some kind. Which she was like,

44:11

I'm not calling you ugly brain, but I'd like, I like the mustache and the beard more than just your plain face.

44:17

And so anyway, I, the it's hard because the mustache was kind of along with the firefighting persona and it like fit that.

44:26

But now I don't know, it's weird not having it anymore and having all this now, I'm going to say the mustache at a minimum, you got to have the mustache with the handlebars that you had.

44:38

If you're going to have a beard, Let me, let me see if I can work on pulling up a picture for everybody in the audience that might not be familiar with me.

44:45

I might face it's right off the off of it's going to look more on there. You're just on the side.

44:51

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where? Next to you.

44:58

Yeah. Actually, show the one when you met your wife, the picture of you when you met.

45:05

Oh, you guys don't want to see that. It sounds like we do. Oh, man, you guys want to see skinny, malnourished

45:16

Brayden. Let me see if I can get to it. Well, OK, the rest of your body matches your hands.

45:23

Oh, oh, come on. For folks, for folks who don't know. I mean,

45:28

I have to explain that inside joke. You know, if you get to meet Brayden and shake hands with him, you may be you may only be 12 years old, but you will notice that your hand engulfs his.

45:43

Listen, a 12 year old girl is we'll say that. Listen, God gave me his grace.

45:49

He made me look just so mightily handsome and he gave me a thorn. And my thorn are these small hands.

45:59

I mean, small hands as a firefighter. Can you actually grip the hose with those?

46:04

Oh, he had to use a garden hose. Natural garden. They had to make a special one for him.

46:11

Yeah, that's right. I told him, hey, just run it, run into the house. We know you can't actually pick people up and bring them out.

46:17

Look at this. Wow, look how skinny I was. Wow. That is like that one right there.

46:25

I think you can really see how skinny you survived that. Dude, it was bad, dude. You know, you didn't age well and you're not that old.

46:35

I mean, what happened to you? Really? Innocent looking

46:41

Troy. Thank you. That was when I was LDS. That's why I look so innocent and all that.

46:47

Yeah, I mean, you were pale even. You needed to get some sun. I mean, you got a tan at least.

46:52

I mean, you look like you were dying. That's the way it what is it way to wince?

46:57

What's how's it the LDS you said? White and winsome or white and a.

47:03

Oh, white and winsome. White and wholesome. White and wholesome.

47:10

That's right. Man. All right. So what's the other hot take?

47:16

A lot of people are saying that they like the beard. Yeah, let me look. Okay. Let me just for I see a lot of people saying the beard.

47:23

I we're going off on this hot take now that Andrew just brought up. I am going to say beard. I'm going to say beard. This was the day before I cut my mustache off.

47:31

It wasn't with wax. So it's just in the shape of a of the handlebars there.

47:38

That wife still looks young. Yeah, I like my wife is is a baby.

47:43

What happened to you? Listen, I feel bad for her to be honest with you.

47:49

But so can we. Look at that. I appreciate you.

47:54

Look. Look at that. I'm going to say beard. I appreciate you for it,

48:00

Brayden. I really do. I'm I'm rooting for you, bro. Thank you. Thank you.

48:06

Brayden was a Mormon vampire. Put the comment. Put up Orthodox MacArthur there. Okay.

48:12

Oh, did he? Where's another hot take? Another hot take? Wait, wait. You got to put up. You got to put up a Orthodox.

48:18

Yeah. Yeah. I can't tell when Andrew stops talking at Tommy Gidds. They're like twins. They're both

48:26

Kevin Hayes dads. That's right. That's why

48:31

I'm invited to the conference. Happen to be Kevin Hayes dad. Hey, that's actually would be a compliment.

48:41

If you could look as good as Kevin. We were told that we were told that and then and then

48:46

Greg kind of ruined it. Matter of fact, it was Layton flowers. We were at the cigar bar and we all smoking cigars and Layton the matter of fact that you were there and and he said he goes, man.

48:58

He goes, are you and Kevin related? And I'm like, why? And he goes, you look like you might be able to be his dad and great.

49:06

Don't tell his wife that that's what he got looking to look forward to is the worst thing in the world.

49:14

Or Kevin if he's watching. He's probably not. Thank God. So here's here's the next one.

49:24

Hot cake. Here we go. You guys. I saw one.

49:30

Oh, should we do the Lord's table weekly? Free or disagree?

49:39

Anybody time chime in if you guys want. I don't really see it. I don't have a position.

49:46

Okay, let's say if you only get it quarterly. Are you okay with that? I think it should be more often.

49:52

I like monthly. You know, here here be my view on it.

49:58

If you do it every week and and there's churches who do it every week and they just make it routine and that's where I would have the issue.

50:07

If you do it, it needs to be part of the service. That is not just oh, it's just a routine part of the service as if there's no no real time of self -reflection, which is what is supposed to be there.

50:22

And so if they if you can do it without making it just a ritual, then

50:30

I think it will probably be okay. But if you're if it's just a ritualistic thing, you know, then having it once a month and I think if you go beyond once a month,

50:40

I mean, I know some churches do it once a year because they do it for, you know, during Passover during, you know, during that time and I'm like, yeah, okay, but I just I think it should be done more often.

50:51

I think monthly at least unless you can do it where it's not ritual. That'd be my take. So here would be my question on that is is couldn't we do the same thing with singing making that, you know, monotonous in a way that I'm do right and I think that's the case.

51:08

But so I guess there's not a you know, so there's not a real commandment as to how often that we ought to do it except that it should be a part of worship.

51:20

Nowhere in the scriptures do we find anywhere how often we ought to sing in worship service, but we do do the singing every every week and I'm so I would be a proponent of actually doing doing a sports table every week, but I would agree with you.

51:38

It needs to be the weightiness of communion needs needs to be expressed.

51:44

Yes. Yeah. What about you? Yeah, I I think a lot of it does come down to I do agree with you on that Tom because if you if you're not taking if if taking the communion weekly becomes monotonous to you.

52:00

It's a you problem not the element problem. Not the not the worship problem. It's you problem.

52:05

You're you're making it monotonous. You're making it not special in your own heart. And so I think I think

52:10

I think that's an important process because if you're coming to church and making it just a part of your week, that's not right.

52:20

It should be you're coming to worship the King not just come here for a social club and not be here just for tradition. And so I think that's a that's a thing that everybody has to check in their own heart when it comes to anything that comes to worship.

52:32

I would prefer to do it weekly. However, I don't see an issue with the church coming to a different agreement on on what works best for them.

52:41

I do think I do think doing it quarterly is way too. I mean, if this is a means of grace that nourishes us, that's not good to be doing it.

52:51

So that I monthly at the least I think would be best. That's a good question there.

52:56

There you right there. You had said the means of grace. And so I know that there might be some little bit differences of opinion of is

53:03

Andrew. The question is, are you on board with spiritual presence? In other words, so I know it's also expressed in our church.

53:10

We go to a dispensational church that it's merely a commemoration. It's merely a remembrance of what the memorial.

53:20

Yeah, would you agree with that? Or do you do you actually believe that it's something more that a means of grace? No, I wouldn't.

53:28

So I'm going to be careful with it to say this because I know it people will be looking at take me out of context and assume what

53:36

I'm saying. So I'm going to I'm going to give some caveats to it. It's not it's not a sacrament.

53:42

I don't think it that way. I don't think it somehow adds spiritual grace to us.

53:49

It is something that is, you know, very much like Passover was it was a memorial.

53:55

It's a time of reflection that a lot of people don't understand what the Passover was the

54:01

Passover Seder. The whole Seder is to bring about that the family would go back in the head of the family would have to explain the history of how

54:10

God brought them out of slavery and into the wilderness and everything that God did and it's it's designed for the the youngest male has to ask these set questions and yes, it's it could be routine, but it shouldn't be just like Lord's Supper.

54:30

So Lord's Supper is a twofold thing. It is the idea of a self -reflection does now that self -reflection is going to be something that does have a spiritual benefit toward us.

54:45

You want to call it a grace. It's going to have some of that because if we're sitting before the

54:52

Almighty God and reflecting on how sinful we are and what he did for us like what our sin actually cost was was

55:02

God becoming a man and dying on a cross. And that reflection is going to or it should if we're properly self -reflecting it's going to humble us which will add grace to our life.

55:17

That says yes, but is the the the act itself a grace?

55:23

No, the other part of what the communion is is the church doing it together.

55:30

So a very smart person. I think that Tom's going to agree a very smart person here. Debbie Shepherd said, you know,

55:37

I'm just saying, you know, I mean, she she's probably smart in many areas but her taste in men maybe not but the

55:46

Bible says as often as you come together and it does say that Acts chapter 2 that they would break bread house to house.

55:54

Yeah, and so yes, it was more often than just once a week.

55:59

They would do that regularly. But the but I will say this they're doing that as a church gathering.

56:05

They're not doing that as hey, Tom and I are going out we get together and we call that communion because that what part of the communion is we do it together as a church.

56:15

So it's not just you have the individual work self -reflection and then you have the corporate coming together and Union and that's the two things that it represents.

56:27

So Brayden, what would you say from a Reformed Baptist perspective the means of grace?

56:33

How is it a means of grace? What is the significance of of the participation in the in the meal that we're celebrating corporately together?

56:45

Yeah, let me I'll pull up to 1689 just to read from it here in just a second. I'll start working on that.

56:51

But as I am doing that I will say that I do think it's more than just and I know you're not just saying just either

56:58

Andrew, but I do think there's more than just I do think just as in Rome.

57:04

I think it's Romans 6 that when we are baptized we put on Christ. So there's something spiritual and something going on there.

57:12

I do think that there's something going on with taking communion. I think it's actively taking because it's the covenant meal.

57:21

And so I do think that there's a dispensing of grace in some kind there. Is it that the elements change?

57:28

Absolutely not. Is it that the sacrifice is taking place again? Absolutely not by no means but just as I think that the preaching of God's word even us actively partaking in it is better than just sitting there and letting it wallow in it.

57:46

But being wallowed in it is still a better means of grace than not being part of it at all. So I think being there just like the preaching of God's word is a means of grace to those that are actively listening and partaking in the worship.

57:58

I do think that the I think there's something spiritually nourishing there that's taking place inside the believer.

58:03

I'll pull it up if you want to add on to that. Yeah, I would just say I do believe that in some way there's at the corporate gathering that there's a there's an intimacy of the of the of the corporate believers gathering together to share a meal together.

58:20

That's actually pointing that something yes, I think that's going to happen in the future at the marriage supper of the lamb.

58:28

And so I do think that when we meditate on those things, and I think you touched on that Andrew, is that when we remember these things, there's grace there.

58:38

So you're being nourished by this meal that you are participating with. And spiritually speaking, as we gather, the presence of the

58:51

Lord being present. And I do think that there's a nourishing and a edifying and a building up and not merely just a memorial and not that you were saying that either.

59:05

But yeah, it's a good question. Good question to talk about. What does the 1689 say? Brandon, did you find it?

59:11

Looking at it right now. Trying to make sure

59:17

I don't read the wrong section right here. This one, the outward elements in this ordinance properly set apart for the use ordained by Christ have such a relationship to Christ crucified that they're sometimes called truly though figuratively by the names of the things they represent.

59:38

That is the body and blood of Christ. However, in substance and nature, they remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.

59:47

So that's gone against the transubstantiation heresy that the

59:52

Catholics hold to. While you're looking at that,

01:00:00

I think for Andrew too, wine or grape juice? I did a one of my shorter podcasts on this.

01:00:11

The Andrew Rapport's rap report, the daily rap report, I should say, which was just a two minute one.

01:00:17

I dealt with this there. And the one issue I'll have is this, those who say we must use wine, real wine, because that's what they did in the first century.

01:00:26

And that is true. Then you must also have unleavened bread.

01:00:33

Good point. I agree with that 100%. If you're going to say, well, we use real wine because that's then use unleavened bread.

01:00:41

Now in our church, we use unleavened bread and grape juice, which is still, it's fruit of the vine.

01:00:47

It's just not fermented. So I think that's still fine. My concern with having, so let me put it this way.

01:00:58

I've been in some churches where they'll have like the little, you know, thumble size cup that either has real wine or grape juice and that's fine.

01:01:09

The issue where I really have an issue is the very first time I was in a church where they had real wine and they had wine glasses for the real wine and little thumbles of grape juice if you didn't want wine.

01:01:24

And I watched guys get up and I watched the pastor pour half a bottle of wine into a glass.

01:01:32

He filled this glass of wine and then says, do this in remembrance him and guzzles down a half bottle of wine.

01:01:42

That I think is an issue. That goes right against first Corinthians 11 with how they were getting drunk and all that.

01:01:50

Yeah, that's not good. Let me pull this up here.

01:01:55

Look at this before you read the confession. I'm alcoholic, I can't use wine. So I kind of,

01:02:01

Andrew, you had mentioned the Passover before and when it talks about the Passover, you were told to get a specific animal of a specific age.

01:02:14

Could, could, back then, could man have said, you know what? I'm allergic to that lamb right there.

01:02:22

I, it's really not good for my body. It gives me gas. I'm going to throw up all day. Let me go out and get a chicken instead.

01:02:31

Did man have a right and would you say that we can apply that principle today?

01:02:37

Okay, but were we commanded to have the alcohol content we have in the wine today?

01:02:45

Well, I mean, so let's, let's remember what was the purpose of the alcohol? The alcohol was to kill dysentery, right?

01:02:53

This is why there weren't the options that we have today. We know this is why

01:03:00

Timothy, you know, Paul says, drink a little wine for your stomach's sake because he was trying to keep his testimony such that he never drank any alcohol and he ended up being sick.

01:03:11

And so we have to remember the purpose of it. And so I, I think that first off that the wine, the alcohol content in the wine, in the first century, when they, at the

01:03:24

Lord, first Lord supper is not the same as today. So lesser alcohol, it was lesser alcohol.

01:03:32

And remember, you grew up drinking alcohol. Sure. Kids would have it because that's what you drank.

01:03:40

So there wasn't as much of an issue as we have in America. I really, you know,

01:03:45

I was just, I was actually just reading up on some of, you know, Thanksgiving, got together with a family and we're talking about one of my, one of my family members who is part of the

01:03:54

Jewish mob and with the speakeasies and all the prohibition. And actually before we started the show,

01:04:00

I was just reflecting as I was reading this article on the fact that I really think that when we try to outlaw alcohol in this country, it really did change the way people view alcohol.

01:04:14

And you ended up seeing that we have a problem where people, people are not taking it the same way as, as used to in times past.

01:04:25

And so now you have people, do I think alcohol and to Mr. Tracy, you know, he may disagree with me.

01:04:32

I think that the reason people declared it as a disease, I don't think alcoholism is a disease.

01:04:39

It was done that way. So by the, by CDC, so that people could take time off of work to get rehab.

01:04:49

Okay. It's, it's not a disease though. It's, it's a, it's a control issue.

01:04:56

Can people eventually control with, get more control? Yes. But I do know a church that where they were, they were praising themselves for drinking real alcohol because it's biblical and their people, you know, and they were saying, you take dominion over, over this in your life.

01:05:11

And they, they had a guy who they were, they were showing, Hey, look, this guy used to be, you know, in a drug rehab for alcohol, and now he's drinking wine and in church.

01:05:21

And then a few years later, he's back in an alcohol, you know, you know, rehab again, because he started off with the, with drinking at church and moved on to other things.

01:05:34

So I do think that we should not be telling people that you must drink alcohol.

01:05:40

I would have, I would have issue with that. Are you okay with both, Brayden? So just a quick thing.

01:05:47

Thank you, Troy. I got pulled up already. I'll read it here in a moment. There, there's a lot of stuff that I, and let's also be clear to the audience.

01:05:55

This is some secondary opinion stuff that we're talking about. And so like a lot of churches handle this differently.

01:06:01

I would not be a fan of using both. The reason I say is that we were supposed to be drinking from one cup.

01:06:07

And so then you're going to immediately be causing division in the body. Do you drink wine or do you drink the grape juice? And so I think that that, that's a, a gateway to having division or clicks or groups in the church.

01:06:20

And so I think we should all be drinking from one cup in your church. No, I don't, but I, it's one bottle though.

01:06:25

So that's another thing. A lot of, some churches do only drink from one cup, right? You guys, I'm sure you guys have been there and you're like, oh gosh,

01:06:32

I got, I don't know if I'm doing that. Right. And so then like, also we, we use at our, at this church here that I'm at right now, we use wine and unleavened bread.

01:06:41

So we use both of those elements as biblical as we possibly can make it without the option.

01:06:49

And, you know, I think, I think there is something to be said with, and like,

01:06:54

I, you know, there, just for every case, like you said, Andrew, I do think that I've, I've seen cases of the opposite where there are people that I've seen that are, were drunkards at one point and then they, they stopped and they were able to partake in a healthy manner.

01:07:08

I think you, like in first Corinthians 11, one of the rebukes that Paul is giving to them is that they were bringing alcohol and they were drinking, getting drunk at church and Paul doesn't tell them to abstain from drinking.

01:07:21

He says, no, you need to do this properly, do this in the remembrance and don't get drunk.

01:07:27

Right. And so, and I know he didn't have the option of saying, okay, he's grape juice because it doesn't have alcohol in it, but he didn't go to saying, just don't partake.

01:07:35

You see what I'm trying to say? It's a thing of, you know, and I don't know how many, like, it's kind of interesting. I've, I've never been in a church that has grape juice that had to make an announcement that it's grape juice, right?

01:07:49

So if there's no mention of it, because the reality is, you know, you get it, you know, growing up Jewish, you know, we, we

01:08:00

Passover, you had to have Manischewitz wine, that's, you know, it's the kosher wine for, but this, huh?

01:08:07

Mogan, David. Yeah, but like a Manischewitz wine and a, and grape juice, you're not telling the difference with, with one thumb ball filled.

01:08:15

And so I wonder if churches that did real wine, if they just never mentioned anything about it being real wine, whether it would actually be a big deal, like people probably wouldn't even notice.

01:08:28

And they would just assume they're having a great meal when we have new people at our church. We don't mention it being new wine or being wine.

01:08:34

We just, we, when we do communion, we say, this is, this is the wine. This is the cup that Christ instituted that we're to do until he comes again.

01:08:44

So what do you guys think about if somebody says, you know, if it's binding someone's conscience, if you're using the conscience argument for not indulging or not partaking in, or that's the reason why they partake in, or prefer grape juice over,

01:09:03

I don't want to bind that person's conscience. So as a church leadership might say, this is why we're not going to serve the wine.

01:09:10

From that same argument, though, what about the person who believes that they're worshiping wrongly if they're taking grape juice instead of what is descriptive in scripture by it actually being wine?

01:09:25

Again, if it's never mentioned, they won't know. I'll give a caveat because I actually know a church that has had that exact issue a hundred percent through and through,

01:09:38

Dear Brother in Christ is the pastor of it that I know. You know, I think, first of all, communion is prescriptive.

01:09:45

So right there, we can't, my mind,

01:09:51

I'm conscience that I feel like I need to go murder someone. You're going to be like, no, the

01:09:56

Bible says don't murder someone. So God tells us we need to be taking communion. So that's first of all.

01:10:02

So take communion. Second of all, if it's an alcohol issue, you're sitting underneath the pastors who are the ones that are responsible for your soul.

01:10:16

Looking at the 1689, let me just read the 1689 real fast. It says, worthy recipients who outwardly partake of the visible elements in this ordinance also by faith inwardly receive and feed on Christ crucified and all the benefits of his death.

01:10:29

They do so really and truly, yet not physically and bodily, but spiritually. The body and the blood of Christ are not present bodily or physically in the ordinance, but spiritually to the faith of believers, just as the elements themselves are present to their outward senses.

01:10:44

Verse their paragraph eight also then talks about if somebody tells it unjustly or unfit, they're drinking judgment.

01:10:51

That's where I think that you could say it's a grace because if they drink judgment when they do it unworthily, the opposite of that,

01:10:57

I think that it's nourishing to their soul. But in saying that, I would also say that that should be done and administered by the elders of the church who have direct oversight of your they're looking over your souls.

01:11:12

And so if you're saying I'm not going to take this because it's a binding of the conscience issue. Well, first of all, it's prescriptive.

01:11:18

That's not how you should work. Your pastors are the ones that are instituting this and are guarding the table and giving out the ordinances just as they would be giving baptism.

01:11:31

They're responsible in this thing. And so whether or not they choose grape juice or wine, I think if you're a believer, maybe don't take it for a week, but you need to get to the point where you can you can feel comfortable taking that conscience.

01:11:43

So let me give two things. One, I'll do this asking it as a question.

01:11:49

Why is it a big deal that it has alcohol content, right? It's the fruit of the grape, right?

01:11:57

That's what was used. Yes, in the first century, it had some alcohol content, not the level we have today, but it was it was a level to kill dysentery.

01:12:08

But what do you say real quick? And I don't mean, but it's a legitimate question here, because there are passages of scripture that talk about drinks and wine and it for a glad heart that it will give you.

01:12:20

So that wasn't for medical purposes in that instance. Well, the fact that it would it would say it would give you a glad heart doesn't mean that's that we should do it.

01:12:29

Like, you know, we'd have to look at the company just making the point. Yeah, it wasn't necessarily just for medical purposes.

01:12:37

But you see what we're doing there is we're saying that what he was saying was to drink the alcohol, not the fruit of the vine.

01:12:47

And I'm not very happy when I drink a bunch of grape juice. But is that what that verse you're saying is trying to hear?

01:12:56

Well, let me ask it as a question this way. Is that verse saying to find your happiness in a bottle? No, I don't know that there is.

01:13:03

So that's so we can't use. Yeah, but we can't use that verse that way. Then, you know, because there are other drinks that we could drink.

01:13:10

We drink coffee to get up in the morning too, because it helps us get up. No, that's only because you don't cold plunge.

01:13:17

If you cold plunge, you wouldn't need coffee, my brother. Here's the plug in right there.

01:13:24

The alert, trust me. For a full five minutes, by the way.

01:13:33

Yeah, yeah. I'm in there for a full five minutes. Wow. Yeah, I'm not doing it in February because first of all, my conscience tells me not with you.

01:13:42

Second of all, I don't know if you put any alcohol in that water or not. I can't have that on my skin, Andrew.

01:13:50

I remember, um, so my pat, my very first pastor was moving. I helped him move.

01:13:56

The people who bought the house from, they left him a bottle of champagne in the refrigerator as like a welcome, you know, as a congratulations celebration.

01:14:05

Well, we were in a rush to move and we just took his food and shoved that that bottle ended up going to the back of the refrigerator and he forgot about it.

01:14:14

Two years later, we're having a Bible study. He called, he called me up and, and he's like, hey, can you come down?

01:14:20

We had to go get a guy out of, out of jail. Um, the guy got arrested for chasing a train naked when, when he, when the pastor and I go to pick him up, he is, he is explaining to the pastor that he got drunk and the pastor was like, you know, you, you, you shouldn't be drunk.

01:14:45

He goes, well, you drink. Pastor was like, what do you, where do you get the idea that I drink? He said, well,

01:14:50

I saw the bottle of champagne in your refrigerator. And so what ended up happening was this guy saw the alcohol in the pastor's refrigerator, the pastor never even drank.

01:15:01

He ended up emptying it, putting it in a brown bag and taking it, not in anymore, leave it in his trash. He drove it to the dump to throw it away.

01:15:10

And it is a thing where in this case, you had someone who was looking for any excuse to, to give himself over to, to his sin.

01:15:20

Uh, someone in the chat asked the question about gluttony. Um, you know, can, can a glutton stop eating and, you know, well, a glutton has to, to master.

01:15:28

I'm a glutton. Okay. Uh, it's one of the, the sins that I've struggled with is, is gluttony.

01:15:35

Uh, I have to, I mean, I'm always going to be eating because I need to eat to survive, but it is a matter of self -control.

01:15:44

Different people are going to have different amounts of self control. And I, I would just,

01:15:50

I would argue this to say, um, this, this, uh,

01:15:56

Reverend Anthony Green, chasing a train naked sounds like Friday night here in Georgia.

01:16:02

It's the reason I'm not going down to Georgia on a Friday night now. But the thing is that I'm going to push back and say,

01:16:11

I think we, we cannot allow the weaker person to dictate to everybody else, how they have to live.

01:16:21

Okay. It, we have to remember that what the passage that Paul gives us with instruction on, on this is that we, as the stronger brother, we're willing to give up things for the weaker brother.

01:16:35

It's not the weaker brother binding our conscience going, you have to do this because I'm weaker. No, your, your weakness is not something that we have to submit to in the sense where you dictate to us.

01:16:47

And in a culture, like we live in now, where everyone feels they're entitled to everything, they think that, that they should bind the conscience of others.

01:16:56

So I, I'm, I'm not for binding, you know, for the weaker brothers, telling the mature believers how they have to behave.

01:17:02

I think the mature believers, you know, have the responsibility to do what they can to not cause a stumbling block for the weaker.

01:17:11

Again, I get back to the question. I just, I, you know, there's, there's, you know, what is it?

01:17:19

Yeah. You know, I don't think wine is about the alcohol as much as it is about the fruit of the grape.

01:17:28

So I, I don't see the issue with a grape juice. I don't see that being unbiblical in any way.

01:17:34

If you have a grape juice. Yeah, I think that people would look at it and just say, okay, what was described, this is the methodology and this is what, this is what the way

01:17:44

I, and I would agree. It's not, it's not prescriptive. Communion is having, but, but it's being descriptive as to what the elements were, but people will use that district, those the, let's push back,

01:18:01

Tom. Yeah. Right. So, so the, the alcohol content, it was like, you know, 2%,

01:18:10

I think, or three proof, whatever it's called. It compared to today where it's what? 15.

01:18:16

One, how would you, how would you measure it? And I think it'll, it'll go into a bigger conversation that, because you figure if the harvest of grapes was in a particular season, let's say in June and, and, and, and you're harvesting these grapes and you're actually making grape juice in July.

01:18:34

Um, by the time you get to Passover in March, it's not going to be grape juice.

01:18:42

Yeah. It's going to be pretty stout wine. I mean, you are going to have to water that down and I, and I'm, and I know they did, uh, pretty, pretty significantly.

01:18:51

Uh, but the question is, is how much? And then was it 20 to one? Was it 40 to one?

01:18:57

What, what was your starting point? So actually trying to find out what the actual percentage was is pretty hard to do.

01:19:04

So, but anyway, you just made my point because now you don't even know how it could have been so watered down that there wasn't much alcohol content.

01:19:13

So you just had grape juice. Very good point. They very well could have watered down 40 to one, but yeah, but, but the issue was in Corinthians, people were getting drunk.

01:19:24

So obviously you had enough to get them drunk. Also, since this, since this show is the wonderfully, uh,

01:19:30

AI generated show that we have, uh, so marvelously been going over so far, I asked

01:19:35

AI what the alcohol percentage was back in those days and said it was nine to 12%.

01:19:41

Oh, really? Yeah. That's what AI said. I don't know. I'm just letting you know this, but that's what my

01:19:46

AI just said. You do know that, that AI does have hallucinations, so. Well, because it's drinking the nine to 12 % alcohol.

01:19:55

It shouldn't have the watered down stuff. Yeah. Hey guys, I know this is cutting it short and everything, well, it's actually not cutting it short.

01:20:02

We've been an hour and 20 minutes. You guys want to wrap up with anything? Any wrap report, wrap report, wrap up?

01:20:11

Well, I say this, I mean, this is, we didn't get to promote the conference enough, but Open Air Theology Conference, go to openairtheologyconference .org.

01:20:20

Want to really encourage you guys listening, watching to consider finding a way to get out.

01:20:27

You'll hear great preaching. If you, if you go, well, I don't know any of these guys. I've had that as I've shared it.

01:20:33

People are like, I don't know anyone but you. Like we, I'm telling you, I mean, I know almost every one of the speakers personally.

01:20:42

Every one of them are great preachers. The, you know, and I'm going to trust the ones

01:20:49

I don't know because of the people organizing, but it is a conference that you want to get to just for the fellowship.

01:20:55

I mean, look, here's a, here's a perfect example. What you have seen here tonight, some disagreements here, obviously the two of them disagreeing with me or the two of us disagreeing with Brayden, right?

01:21:06

We, it always seems to be two on one, but yeah, or they're making fun of my small hands. You'll see plenty of that at the conference.

01:21:13

Oh yeah. That's every person that shakes your hand will do that. They just, they shake your hand and go, I'm sorry.

01:21:18

I didn't know that was a hand there. Sorry. I thought

01:21:24

I was just shaking your, your, you know, stump of your, your, your elbow there. So, so I mean, the, the, the fun of the conference really is getting into these theological discussions, opening the word, having the fellowship time that we're, we're, we're doing this, joking around with one another, having the, the, the, the, the good fellowship, the humor.

01:21:46

This is what is really good to, to do, you know?

01:21:53

And so that's, I really want to encourage you guys, if you have not been to an open air theology conference to get your tickets before they sell out, you saw the size of the building, tickets will sell out.

01:22:07

So, you know, last year's any consolation to this year, you know, I think people that went last year, loving it and looking forward to coming back.

01:22:15

So I would strongly suggest to get your tickets early and get the tickets and don't miss this conference is going to be a great time.

01:22:23

There's going to be a lot of fun. There's going to be a lot of good theology. I'm looking forward to the debate that we're having.

01:22:31

I'm also looking forward, you know, as I know, Tom is after the conference, getting out on the streets, hitting the streets and sharing the gospel.

01:22:39

So it's going to be a, I think personally for most people, if not all people that attend this conference, it will help you in your spiritual walk.

01:22:50

It will help in your maturity. And it's something that if you can pick a conference, there's plenty of big conferences people go to, and you're not going to get the same event, right?

01:23:02

I've organized conferences. When I started doing conferences, we purposely didn't have a green room and there's a meant certain speakers weren't going to be there.

01:23:11

But the nice thing is you're, you're sitting there and after someone gets done preaching, you can ask them questions about what they just,

01:23:17

Hey, I didn't understand this. I've had that happen where it's like, Hey, you mentioned this point, you know, can, can you, you know, elaborate more on it?

01:23:25

That's what you're going to get to do at a conference like the open air theology conference. So go get your tickets, go search, go just open air theology conference .org

01:23:34

or search open air theology. And, uh, and that will, yeah. And I see the apologetic dog.

01:23:41

He'll be there. What's up family. So he's going to be one of the speakers. Like, yeah, he is.

01:23:47

You know, I just, I do have to say this. I think this is a testament to this year's conference, um, topic, which is on sanctification.

01:23:54

Andrew attending the conference two years ago was essentially a heathen when he walked in those front doors and look how much,

01:24:01

I mean, that guy with that beard, look how holy he looks today. I think

01:24:14

I'm going to shave it at the conference. Maybe he'll say,

01:24:19

Oh dude, you should like, uh, Oh man. You like the highest bidder gets to shave it for you.

01:24:31

Yeah. The raffle of a Jeffrey rice Bible or shaving my beard.

01:24:38

There we go. Maybe it should be a raffle item. Who gets to shave? I'll take the

01:24:44

Bible. Oh, Troy, go.

01:24:50

You gotta put a little more at the end of the show. Right. Troy puts a zinger there.

01:24:55

He said, uh, donate your beard to break. That's messed up. Well, um, are we, are, are we ending it with final words?

01:25:05

Can I have my final words now? No, I'm going to go first. So no, in all honesty.

01:25:16

So, uh, you guys know, we, we go out on the streets and proclaim the gospel and I'm going to challenge you guys today that, uh, this week, make it a point to go, go share with somebody, go share the gospel with your neighbor, your friend, coworker, spend some time with them, you know, and magnify

01:25:34

Christ in your life. But, but tell them, tell them what the gospel is. Tell them about the personal work of Christ alone, that they might have eternal life.

01:25:42

You might be the instrument that God chooses to use, to open their eyes, to see their spiritual condition, that they need a substitute and to believe on Christ who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and have eternal life.

01:25:57

So make it a point to go out there and do that this week and, and God would be glorified in your, in your service.

01:26:05

I got to go after that. Thanks a lot, Tom. You're welcome. You kidding me?

01:26:12

Amen, brother. You know, I, I do just have to tell you, Andrew, thank you so much for coming on here, brother. We love you.

01:26:17

We're going to have you back on here. Um, undoubtedly, as long as you would like to come back, uh, we, we dearly love you, brother.

01:26:24

I will just let everybody know that's watching this again. We have a new YouTube channel that was just started here recently.

01:26:30

Go check out open air theology on YouTube. Please subscribe, keep an eye out for future shows. Um, as in coming weeks, every

01:26:37

Sunday up until the conference, we're really wanting to try to engage with our speakers that are going to be at this conference. And so we're going to have

01:26:43

Andrew again in the future, no doubt, but we'll, we'll try to get other speakers lined up to be able to join us. Um, open air theology conference .org

01:26:50

is where you get those show those tickets. I'm going to grace Bible church in Moore park, California.

01:26:56

I'm moving there this week. If you live in that area, please grace Bible church, Moore park,

01:27:02

California. It'd be a blessing to worship the Lord with you. Um, anyway, today's show was great.

01:27:07

Love you guys very much. So I think what we should do is a great fundraiser folks in the chat.

01:27:15

Let me know if you like this idea that if we raise over $5 ,000, both

01:27:22

Tom and Brayden cold plunge at the conference, I'll do it for a hundred.

01:27:37

I will give the a hundred dollars. Well, now we just need to bring the cold plunge. Would I have to do it for straight up five minutes?

01:27:50

Three. Okay. That's not that that's terrible though. Andrew, like if it was 10 seconds,

01:27:55

I might be on board with it. Three minutes though. That's a long time. You gotta get a good shiver going, man.

01:28:03

Oh my gosh, dude. Someone just posted donated a hundred dollars. Bring the plunge plunger, either that or I'm heating up the water in the tub.

01:28:17

Hey, thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to this conference in February. I hope everyone else is, uh,

01:28:22

I'd love to see all you there that are in the chat room in watching, listening.

01:28:28

So it'll be a great time. And, uh, I, I, you'll thoroughly enjoy it. Amen. Amen. Well, all right.