June 1, 2021 Show with Micah Wilder on “Passport to Heaven: The True Story of a Zealous Mormon Missionary Who Discovers the Jesus He Never Knew”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this first day of June 2021.

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I trust you all had a very refreshing and joyful and glorious and Christ -centered

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Memorial Day weekend and I hope that you took a part of that time to give honor to those brave heroes who have given life and limb for the freedoms that we take for granted every day in this nation.

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Today I'm so excited to have on the program Micah Wilder. He is a former

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Mormon missionary and son of a former professor at Brigham Young University who

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I've interviewed on this program before Linda Kay Wilder and I've also interviewed

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Micah's father as well. Micah is also the co -founder drummer bassist and guitarist for Adam's Road which is a

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Christian non -profit testimony and musical ministry based in Wintergarden, Florida comprised solely of former

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Mormons three of which are former Latter -day Saints and one was raised in the fundamentalist polygamist

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Mormon cult and they were all rescued by the true gospel of the true

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Jesus Christ of the true scriptures. Today we're going to be addressing Micah's new book hot off the press

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Passport to Heaven the true story of a zealous Mormon missionary who discovers the

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Jesus he never knew and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Micah Wilder.

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Chris it's an honor to be here. I appreciate this opportunity and I enjoyed meeting you face to face.

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I'm assuming that was about three years ago perhaps two in Franklin Tennessee at Grace Church at Franklin where my friend

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Bill Sasser is the pastor and you and your group Adam's Road provided the music for the

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Bunyan Conference named after John Bunyan that was held there and that was such a joy not only to meet you face to face but to meet all of your group's members and although I had spoken with your mom quite a number of times before that and your dad it was nice to meet your parents face to face for the first time there.

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Yeah yeah it's great to meet you in person. I'd heard your voice so many times on the radio and just an honor to be able to finally have this opportunity.

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I know we've kind of known each other and connected via email for several years now but finally able to see this become a reality.

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Yes I remember I think this may be your first time on the show but I remember

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Adam's Road was going to be passing through this area and we were going to have all of you right here in the studio but you

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I don't know if it was all the group but there was a great portion of the group stranded somewhere because the car either broke down or there was something that prevented providentially you folks from being on the show but I'm glad that you are on the show finally and am

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I corrected that this is the first time you're on the program? Yes that's correct. Okay great well

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I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they have questions of their own they'd like to ask you.

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are currently right now a Mormon but you have been studying the scriptures and you've been hearing the sermons of bible -believing evangelical

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Christians and you're starting to rethink your religion perhaps it's even a religion that you were raised in perhaps it's even a religion you are a leader in and you don't want to quite yet reveal your identity because you haven't completely thought these things through yet and the

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Lord has not yet done a miracle of of a heart transplant in your life where you have received a new heart to believe the true gospel of the true

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Christ well we would understand that you would remain anonymous at this time but if it's just a general question on Micah's testimony a general question regarding the bible regarding theology regarding a contrast between biblical

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Christianity and Mormonism please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence well uh it's interesting that uh every time we have a first -time guest on this program we have them give a summary of their testimony on how they came to Christ but in this case the whole interview will be on that because that is the that is the theme of your book passport to heaven and uh i'm assuming that you were raised uh from infancy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints were you not that's correct so my mother my father uh were actually born in Christian homes and when they were in their early 20s short after they were shortly after they got married uh two

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Mormon missionaries knocked on their door uh when they were graduate students at Ball State University in Muncie Indiana and came presented to them this this gospel of the

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Mormon church and they were very enamored uh by these young men and by this message and uh ultimately were baptized into the

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Mormon church and then they uh were very zealous and faithful and active in Mormonism from that point forward and they raised those children in a very active and devout

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Mormon home and uh are you i'm assuming that most of your memories of growing up as a

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Mormon were wonderful memories uh people who leave religions don't necessarily leave them because of some kind of horrible nightmarish experiences i was a

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Roman Catholic before coming to Christ and understanding his gospel and i don't have any nightmares of being raised in a

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Catholic i don't have any nightmares from going to a Catholic parochial school for eight years or being an altar boy or anything like that i enjoyed much of my

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Catholic upbringing but i realized that there was a different gospel at a certain point in my life so tell us something about your own upbringing yeah i think that's a really good point i think a lot of people end up leaving uh you know their their religious system because they become disenchanted with it that that wasn't the case with me i mean mine was a very clear and distinct uh drawing of God into a relationship with him um i had a very wonderful childhood in the

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Mormon church um i had good memories with my family uh with my my you know my religion um and with that whole community of Mormonism um it was very family centered very moral centered and it grounded me uh you know as a young man so i was never really seeking anything outside of it i i really believed that it offered me everything that i would ever need and and i really loved it with all of my heart you know i think it would be a good thing for you to explain the primary religious beliefs of Mormonism that contrast that are in fact the polar opposite of beliefs held by bible -believing evangelical

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Christians there are many within evangelicalism that are completely ignorant of Mormonism some might even be so naive or ignorant that they believe

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Mormonism is just another denomination of Christianity especially since that seems to be the public relations approach of Mormons these days in the 21st century it seems to be a radically different approach that i have even personally encountered with Mormon missionaries uh their their mission it seemed was not to let me know that i was in a false church and needed to be directed to the true church it was to let me know hey don't be afraid of Mormons we're just like you we're just another

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Christian group but um yeah tell us about these key distinctives that might even surprise some of our evangelical listeners yeah so that's actually a really astute observation um i think that the

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Mormon church has made a very concerted uh in the last you know 10 15 20 years to really enmesh themselves into evangelical

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Christianity and to appear you know as though they're part of you know this this greater worldwide body of Christ but they do in fact have very distinct doctrines from that of orthodox

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Christianity so i'll kind of speak without getting into too many very obscure doctrines i'll kind of talk about some of the things that were part of my childhood growing up and what i was taught uh the biggest thing was that the

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Mormon church we believed was the only true and living church upon the face of the earth now what that meant was we believed that the

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Mormon church was actually the physical institution and organization that Jesus himself established during his earthly ministry and after the death of Christ and the apostles the

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Mormon church teaches that there was apostasy from the truth meaning that the the authority that Jesus gave the apostles was removed from the earth and the truth was lost for centuries and then in the 1800s if you've heard of Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism he was called by God to be a prophet and to restore that original organization of Jesus Christ that was established so right there you have a very distinct teaching that there is actually a physical institutional organization that contains within it the exclusive authority to perform the necessary works and ordinances for eternal life so what are these works and ordinances so they are water baptism is the first one the second one would be receiving the holy ghost and then the third is joining and becoming a member of the

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Mormon church and from there you then have a lifetime of following these strict moral codes commandments and laws and ordinances that an individual must do in order to establish righteousness before God so we had to pay a ten percent tithing we had to stay active in our church duties we had to live certain moral and dietary codes we had to go to the temple the

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Mormon temple and perform certain ordinances within the temple get married and then ultimately live a life of faithfulness to the commandments that were given to us by the

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Mormon leaders so in that respect when we're talking about the distinct differences between orthodox evangelical

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Christianity and Mormonism that in Mormonism it is a works -based righteousness now most

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Mormons will deny that and they'll they'll say well we don't believe that we can earn our salvation and I would have said that as a young Mormon man as well however

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I didn't trust in the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross for my own salvation and what

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I mean by that is that I was trying to add to or contribute to what Jesus did so I never would have said that what

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Jesus that Jesus died unnecessarily or that I could get to heaven outside of God's grace but that I myself had to add my own works and my own righteousness and my own merits to that which

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Christ did and so in that way you have a works -based gospel which is in complete contradiction to the gospel as revealed in the word of God another distinct difference in doctrine of Mormonism is that they believe in modern -day prophets and apostles and what that means is that they believe that there is a man who sits at the head of the church the president of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints and that he is a prophet ordained by God with the same prophetic authority as the prophets in the

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Old Testament like Abraham and Moses and Noah and Isaiah and that he actually speaks the word of God to man and that God speaks through him to us to reveal revelation and scripture and in addition to the prophet there are also apostles okay they have 12 apostles that they believe hold the same apostolic authority as the apostles in the

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New Testament and that they too are the mouthpieces of God and so we actually call these men prophets seers and revelators and believe that they themselves could reveal scripture and reveal truth and new commandments to mankind so in that way you automatically are seeking extra biblical sources for truth and so we believe that these men spoke truth in addition to that which was revealed in scripture and probably and one of the other largest distinct differences in Mormonism is that we had extra biblical scripture so in addition to the

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King James Bible which was the translation we used we had three other books of scriptural canon the

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Book of Mormon the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Prize now all of these books we believe contain the word of God and in fact if you would have asked me as a

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Latter -day Saint which book was the highest and which book was the lowest I would have said that the Book of Mormon would have the highest authority and the

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Bible would have the lowest authority and the reason why I would have said that is because we were taught that the

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Bible had been mistranslated it had been corrupted and that it was you know missing many plain and precious truths of the gospel so we didn't believe the

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Bible to be the infallible word of God it was not the inerrant word of God it was in fact an imperfect corrupted document and so although we believed in the

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Bible and we pulled truth from the Bible it was not our exclusive source for the word of God and therefore we were susceptible to that deception because we were going to extra biblical sources so the last thing

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I'll mention is is probably the biggest difference in Mormon theology and biblical theology and that is the very nature of God himself so in Mormon theology it is taught that God himself was not always

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God and has not always been God but that he actually at one point was a man who progressed to become

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God and they also teach that we as mankind have the potential to become gods as well so although there is one father to us the father is one of many possibly millions of gods who have eternally progressed to become

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God by obedience to the laws and the eternal ordinances of Mormonism and so it's in complete contradiction to the nature of God as revealed in scripture in Isaiah 41, 42, 43 that there is only one

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God there is no other God beside me we know that God is from everlasting to everlasting and so within that nature of God he was a created being that was not eternal and then he himself actually created

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Jesus so Jesus the nature of Jesus is also not eternal in Mormon theology he was not always the logos the word of God that was with God he actually himself was created by God for the foundation of this world and so we have a very different viewpoint on the very nature of God and Jesus as revealed in the scriptures so I know that was a lot but those are kind of some of the to me the biggest distinct differences in Mormon theology and biblical theology.

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Yeah that last belief is without question the most heretical some might even call blasphemous of the of the

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Mormon teachings and and I'm probably going to butcher this but I remember a quote by Lorenzo Snow who was a very prominent

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Mormon and it was something like as as God once was we are now as God now is we shall become it or we may become is that something close to what

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Lorenzo Snow said? Yeah yeah I think I think he said exactly as man is

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God once was and as God is man may become. There you go.

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And so that's the idea of this eternal progression of godhood within Mormonism. Now there is a there is a defense

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I would say by Mormons that they are not truly polytheistic because they only worship one

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God. How do you how do you reply to Mormons that would insist upon that? Yeah so so you're right that's probably how a

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Mormon would respond is that although there may be many gods out somewhere in the universe to us on this planet right there is only one

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God and one creator and that is that is God the Father and but of course we know that there is no other God there is only one

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God that God is eternal in nature and he has always been eternal in nature and so I would simply go to the scriptures and point out the fact that that God did not become

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God. If God was once a man then he is not the eternal God as revealed in the word of God.

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Yes and I believe that is the the approach of Mormonism could also be referred to as henotheism, h -e -n -o -theism.

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Is that true where there there are multiple gods but there is a hierarchy of authority and power?

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Right, correct. And so going back to your testimony

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I'm assuming since your mother was a university professor that you were raised in Provo?

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So I actually originally was raised in the Midwest in Indiana and so I spent the first 15 years of my life there and then going into my freshman year of high school we moved to Utah when my mother got a job at BYU and so I spent about four years of my you know prime teenage years through high school in in the heart of Mormonism right there in Alpine, Utah.

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And so tell us about this pivotal occurrence, actually what led up to this pivotal occurrence in your life where you volunteered to become a

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Mormon missionary I believe in Florida and I understand that at least the first Mormon missionary

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I encountered as a born -again believer he was about I don't know 19, 20, 21 perhaps and he had flown up from California to Long Island, New York where I used to live and he had to pay his own way to get to New York he had to pay for his own apartment while living there and basically he was doing this because he wanted to share what he believed was the only true religion with others and this was before the days this was in the 1980s it was before the days where there was a full -blown ecumenism going on or a full -blown falsifying of the agenda of the

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Mormon church. As I said earlier the last Mormons I encountered right here in the streets of Carlisle, Pennsylvania within about the two -minute walk from where I'm sitting right now the last two occurrences

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I had or encounters I had with Mormon missionaries in the street were them telling me that hey you probably heard some crazy things about the

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Mormon church that they think they're the only true church but no we're just another Christian denomination like you man but my experience was not quite that ecumenical back in the 80s and this young Mormon missionary was actually a lot more honest and understanding it seemed of true

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Mormon theology although and we could get to this later he was shocked when

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I told him that it is a Mormon belief I believe originated by Brigham Young that Jesus Christ was conceived by a physical sexual union between God who tabernacled in the flesh and Mary and he swore that that was not true that I was lying or that I had heard a false teaching in fact before we even get into your story there was

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I correct in stating that that that was a teaching of Brigham Young it was a teaching of some of the early prophets of Mormonism that's correct and that's the difficult thing with Mormons is trying to identify what is actual doctrine right because you've had a lot of unique and very you know obscure doctrines taught by Mormon leaders over the years but then sometimes those doctrines are kind of dismissed by modern day prophets and so it's hard to actually determine what they consider doctrine so a lot of Mormons are actually very ignorant to their own teachings so so the missionary that had never heard that before he was probably you know genuine in believing that however it definitely was taught within now now since Brigham Young was a chief a key prophet six uh succeeding uh

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Joseph Smith unless you're a RDLS member who believed Joseph Smith's son was the true heir apparent of the uh

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Mormon church but uh the uh Brigham Young is is one of obviously even the the major uh university is named after him uh obviously obviously if he's a prophet there's a difference between me rejecting things by one of my my most beloved heroes of the

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Christian faith Charles Haddon Spurgeon there's a difference between me saying oh there's a there's an area where I disagree with uh

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Charles I love Charles believe in most of what he believes but that's an area I have to I have to part ways with him but when you're talking about a prophet uh

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon never claimed to be a prophet nobody views him as a prophet so right how do you get around there being uh that being a tertiary area of importance where it was coming from the lips of a prophet yeah

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I mean to be honest you can't get around it and that is part of the the challenge with engaging

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Mormons is so many of them are either ignorant to or they simply ignore uh doctrines that have spoke been spoken by their own prophets but as you mentioned

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I mean Brigham Young claimed to be the mouthpiece of God and he was a prophet and a seer and a revelator and he spoke

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God's word and God's will to mankind and you either believe that or you don't so like you said when we have disagreements within the body of Christ or we know that you know even

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Martin Luther and all the great things he did and said did and said some very foolish things as well but I'm not adhering to or following Martin Luther as a prophet nor did he ever claim to be one right and so that's the difference is that ultimately we go back to the word of God which has been written and established and then we test all things against the word but in the

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Mormon church they're actually going to man in order to establish truth and that it's a very dangerous road because that is how we are led away yeah in fact that even the contrast came up during my conversations in the 80s with this young Mormon missionary about racism because I had asked him how he reacted to the fact that his church is really rooted in racial bigotry uh white supremacy and uh he said well who are you to talk there are baptists in the

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Ku Klux Klan and I said yeah but there are baptists in hell or any of your prophets in hell you know

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I mean there's a big difference between a prophet and a founder of your church and some moron who happens to claim to be a baptist who's a white supremacist so obviously there is a there is a huge difference isn't there yeah absolutely all right we're going to our first station break right now and then when we come back we'll get into the heart of uh your confrontation uh your collision as it were you being in a collision course with a an evangelical christian minister while you were a missionary for the

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Mormon church in Florida and if anybody again has any questions of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA don't go away we're going to be right back after these messages hi i'm phil johnson host and executive director of grace to you the media ministry of john mccarthy i hope you plan to join me and chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio for the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october 2nd the theme this year is christ is supreme over all my friend chris arnson and i will be joined by several of our other friends including voddie balcom justin peters daryl bernard harrison virgil walker and james white more than 20 other speakers will be joining us and the lineup this year includes my pastor john mccarthur for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com chris arnson and i hope to see you september 30th through october 2nd at g3 2021 this is phil johnson reminding you that christ is supreme overall when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rich jensen of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor sule prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john sampson of king's church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck bolo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of eastport baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens jr of the church in friendship in hopley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's liyfc .org welcome back this is chris arnson if you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is micah wilder a former mormon missionary son of a former professor at brigham young university and co -founder drummer bassist and guitarist for adams road a christian non -profit testimony and musical ministry based in winter garden florida and we are addressing micah's book today passport to heaven the true story of a zealous mormon missionary who discovered that jesus he never knew so tell us about uh your experiences in florida as a missionary and how you encountered this evangelical so i arrived in florida in 2004 a very zealous and very devout mormon missionary and and i was kind of akin to solitarsis where i i had a deal that was even beyond my peers and my contemporaries and so i immediately upon arrival began going out trying to make converts believing that bringing people into mormonism was was saving them and bringing them to salvation and so uh i knocked on a lot of doors talked to a lot of people on the streets on the sidewalks uh encountered many uh different types of people um i did encounter uh several christians early on in my mission and i remember that uh i wasn't very impressed by the way that they engaged with us um and what i mean by that is that most of them were not very kind to us and and they weren't very loving and and in fact they would kind of tell us well you're in a cult and you're going to hell and we don't want to listen to your message and then they'd slam the door in our face and i remember that really made an impact on my life because i would walk away from those those homes and those people thinking to myself well if that's what a christian is i don't want anything to do with them and it only further kind of solidified my my testimony in mormonism and so about four months into my mission i'd become so zealous and uh and so confident in my ability to convert other people that i actually attempted to convert a baptist minister in winter garden florida and so uh my mormon companion and i arrived at this church it was called calvary baptist and uh we actually went to their sunday evening service and sat and listened through the service and i talk about this experience in the book and that was actually um a very impactful moment for me when i sat there and heard the gospel through uh this church service and through these hymns that were being sung and i was very moved by it and then at the end of the service uh we went and introduced ourselves to pastor his name is alan benton and uh and we said pastor benton we're missionaries from the mormon church and we'd like to sit down with you and share with you a message about the gospel and right here uh from the onset this is such a critical moment of my testimony and it's critical because pastor benton did not engage with me in the way that so many other quote -unquote christians did he was very loving he was very kind he was very gentle he was very compassionate and he was very respectful and and i cannot emphasize enough how important that was in in the seed that was planted in my heart was that this man displayed a genuine christ -like love that we are called to have as followers of jesus and i remember just being very taken aback by that and and very confused by it um but i continued on i pressed forward in my zeal because i believed that this man was in darkness and that we had the fullness of the gospel to deliver to him and so two days later we sat down with pastor benton in his office and we had a discussion about our religious beliefs and about all of the things that we believed were necessary for we talked about the church of jesus christ that was established during her earthly ministry and the authority and the restoration and all the things that were brought forward through joseph smith and that we represented the only true authority and church of christ on the earth now one of the things that that really stuck out to me about pastor benton as we were sharing our beliefs is that he was very respectful throughout this entire experience like he didn't interject he didn't uh you know condemn us he just listened very respectfully and and gave us an ear and i think that he did that because he knew that uh when our turn was over he was going to have something to share with us and we were going to have to reciprocate that respect and so at the end of of our part of the presentation uh we we posed the question to this pastor we said what do you think about what we shared with you right and and i thought well we've done a really great job and i felt like i was a really good missionary and i had communicated these things so clearly and and i figured well he's going to know that this is true and the very first thing that pastor benson said in response to us is he said i i appreciate your zeal i appreciate the dedication that you have to what you believe but what i need to tell you is that the gospel that you have just shared with me the message you have delivered is not the saving gospel that has been revealed in the bible and that was really probably the first time in my life that i had been challenged so directly and and and so you know just so so fervently to my face that the very foundation of my belief system was in fact not the gospel in the bible and that was a very difficult thing for me to hear at that time of my life um but it was a very necessary thing for me to hear now how long after that did the gospel take root in your heart when i had my first encounter with a mormon missionary in the 80s when i was a a brand new christian well at least a reasonably uh recent uh christian i was probably i probably would have been accurately described as a as being a cage stage calvinist i was probably uh a lot more rude than i needed to be with people that disagreed with my theological views uh but the mormon missionary in my living room on long island he was very angry at the end of our time together i don't think that i was really all that rude as as uh i mentioned that i probably was guilty of some of that but he was being confronted especially with brigham young's view of uh god tabernacling in the flesh and having a sexual union with mary to conceive jesus he was packing up the stuff he was very angry and he told me you know all you've done today is you've made me more determined to be the best mormon that i'll ever be and he was quite upset uh how was your or what was your reaction like when this pastor had uh given you uh presented to you the true gospel yeah so it was probably very comparable to that missionary that you engaged with and so after i heard so so after he initially told me that the gospel i believed in was not the same gospel he then proceeded to to communicate the truth the saving gospel in a very clear and a very succinct in a very powerful way and in a way that was directly through the word of god scriptures and the amazing thing about his experience is that he didn't kind of go the route that you did like he really just kept to the scriptures he kept the grace to the gospel of god's work in christ but it still offended me nonetheless and it still frustrated me and it angered me and i always tell people we shouldn't be deliberately offensive in the way that we present the gospel and we shouldn't engage in topics that we know are going to be deliberately offensive however the word of god will offend and if the word of god does offend then let it be and so pastor benson offended me but it wasn't because of his approach it was because i was offended by the word of god you know it's living and it's active and it's sharper than any two -edged sword and i was pierced by that sword and and it's amazing that i'm hearing the gospel message the love of god in christ and yet it's making me angry and it was making me angry because it contradicted the fundamental belief system that i had been raised in and that i was teaching as a missionary and and it really was a difficult experience for me to to hear that gospel message and so at the end of my meeting with pastor benson i think he could see that that i was very frustrated and even getting to the point of of you know having anger and i think he was trying to calm me down he said look young man you don't have to trust me you don't have to listen to what i'm telling you but what i would challenge you to do is to go to the source and find out the truth for yourself he said i challenge you go to the word of god go to the bible go to the new testament in particular and read it through the eyes of a child read it like a child and i promise you that if you approach god's word without preconceived notions you remove those religious lenses from your eyes and allow god through his word to show you truth your life will never be the same and god is going to open your eyes and so that was the very last but but the the lasting um challenge that he gave me and it was a profound invitation to simply go to the scriptures and allow god's word to to change my life praise god and by the way i don't want to give anybody a picture an exaggerated picture that i was a really nasty jerk in that confrontation the mormon missionary i never raised my voice or use ad hominem i never told him that he was a fool or i never told him that he was ignorant or anything like that in fact i told him to do his own homework when he left there and read the scriptures and i also told him to check up on birgham young's belief that i had mentioned to him that got him so upset uh i said check your own mormon documents about whether or not birgham young believes that jesus was conceived through a physical sexual union between god and mary and when i had called him back about three weeks later uh he we were both pleasant with each other but he said that he had not had the time to check up on what i said and he kind of rushed me off the phone so uh but i am uh so thrilled to hear that the lord used this servant of god uh now can you i would love to give him a plug here on the show what was this pastor's name and the church so it was pastor alan benson and he's no longer at that church he's actually um the vice president of discipleship at bond jones university now oh great and is serving there uh and making you know god is using him to make a huge impact in that community um so yeah alan ben great and i had the privilege of uh seeing uh in person the president of bob jones university at a reformed bible conference in manhattan which was very surprising to many people because bob jones doesn't have a history of being very friendly towards reform theology but i was very impressed with the current president of bju and uh i was very uh impressed by his message and uh it seemed very much in harmony with my own beliefs uh so uh very happy to hear about what's going on at bju these days yeah uh so you said like the mormon missionary i encountered for the first time that you were upset but tell me uh about approaching the bible like a child like you were instructed by pastor benson and when the the gospel finally took root in your heart yeah so when i initially took this challenge upon myself i i did not do it in the way the pastor benson instructed me in fact i very much did it with pride um because i i knew that i was right and and i was not a mormon who ever doubted my faith i i never questioned it i never even conceived that the things that i had been taught my entire life by my religious leaders you know could be untrue and so i i was really more than anything else i wanted to use the bible as a weapon against this pastor and really against the whole evangelical community by proving my own belief system through the bible and in particular the new testament and i remember kind of thinking to myself well although we have all of this extra biblical structure surely i can i can prove that the mormon church is what it claims to be using exclusively the new testament and so that was really my mindset was was was a prideful and arrogant heart uh and that's why i started reading the bible was to prove pastor benson wrong and so that very night actually i sat down i opened up my bible my king james bible to matthew chapter 1 and i began to read and i had no idea nor did i have any inkling that anything in my life was going to change and to be honest i didn't want anything in my life to change in that i wasn't looking for truth outside of mormonism and so i didn't think that reading the bible was going to teach me anything that i didn't already know and and i think that that is evidence to to how powerful god's love is right jesus said no one comes to me unless the father who sent me draws him and god began this this incredible process of drawing me to himself through his word and honestly i think it's a process in my entire life but it was kind of all culminating to this moment as a mormon missionary where i started to read the word of god and so i read the new testament all the way through for the first time in my life as a mormon missionary and i was so impacted by the power of its message that i wanted to go back and i wanted to read it again and here is the mercy of god here's the steadfast love of god is i wasn't seeking you know truth through the bible but yet the bible was pouring truth into my heart and so god was using his word inadvertently to me to begin to change my life and to open up my heart and my mind and my eyes to spiritual truth that i wasn't even aware that i needed and so i went back and i read the new testament again and then i did that again and i did that continually and so i read the new testament daily throughout the person the the um duration of my two -year mission and in those 18 to 20 months that i had left i read the new testament in total 12 times and each time i read the word of god god was showing me something new and he was washing me through the water of his word and he began to remove the scales and the blindness that had been on my eyes my entire life and he started to show me that there was something more and something greater than that which i had ever known in mormonism and so i started to see all these were taking root in my heart and reading ephesians chapter 2 but god being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead and our trespasses made us alive together with christ by grace you have been saved right and then on to you know eight nine for by grace you have been saved through faith it's not your own doing and so all of a sudden starting to see that salvation eternal life is not something that they can be earned not something that i can work for or be worthy of because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god and yet we are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in christ jesus and so i'm going through scripture after scripture and i get to titus chapter three that when the goodness and the loving kindness of god our savior appeared he saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness but according to his own mercy and i get the first john chapter four and so on and so on john chapter six and all of a sudden i'm seeing this picture that is so clearly and so beautifully presented in the word of god and that is that mankind cannot and will never be able to establish righteousness with god by our own merits and the holy law that was established on sioni through moses was evidence that we could never do that which was required by a holy and a just god and so this law actually exposed our sin but then pointed us to a greater hope that would be our salvation and of course we know that greater hope was jesus christ of nazareth who was born 2 000 years ago of a virgin and then he lived a sinless life and then offered his own life as a ransom for our sins as the propitiation for our sins by being our substitute and taking upon himself the wrath and punishment that we deserve and that by faith in what he did on our behalf we could be given the free gift of salvation and have the assurance of the forgiveness of our sins and that was the message of the gospel and it was the same gospel that pastor benson had shared with me and it was the same gospel that was so that i mocked for being so simple and yet it was good news to me in the word of god amen well we're going to we're going to pick up where you left off there we're going to our midway break right now please be patient with us folks it's a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the fcc to air their own public service announcements in the midway break while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials so send in your questions uh to michael wilder to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com we'll be right back don't go away hello dear ones my name is justin peters and my friend chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the united states we'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october the second on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers including john mccarthur phil johnson vody balcom joel beakey and james white for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's g the number three conference .com please join chris arnson and me september 30th through october the second at g3 2021 this is justin peters reminding you that christ is supreme over all we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family bhanu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

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that's l e e s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you the wokeness in the gospel conference is coming to denton bible church in denton texas june 11th register now by going online to wokeness and gospel dot org featuring speakers such as dr owen strand if you just buy this ideology the world's going to be made right no it's not only jesus christ makes the world right daryl harrison of the just thinking podcast sinners like you and me can be reconciled first and foremost to god and consequently to one another pastor tom buck of first baptist church in lindale texas like satan in the garden woke hermeneutics undermines the very authority of the word of god i don't say that line also hear from tommy nelson charles stolfos and rodney brown confronting the lies being impressed upon the culture today threatening even to divide the church and answering with the gospel of jesus christ the wokeness in the gospel conference coming to denton bible church june 11th and 12th register online at wokeness and gospel .org

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when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm anthony uvinio founder of the reformrookie .com

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and co -founder of new york apologetics and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor tim bushong syracuse baptist church in syracuse indiana and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm eli ayala founder of revealed apologetics and staff member with the historical bible society and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor josh miller of grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm joe bianchi president of calvi press publishing in greenville south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jake corn of switzerland community church in switzerland florida and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order getting a driver's license running a cash register flipping burgers passing sixth grade do you know what they all have in common they all require training assessments and certifications but do you know what requires no training at all becoming a parent my name is am brewster i'm the president of truth love parent and host of its award -winning podcast i've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what i've discovered is that the majority of christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes that's why truth love parent exists we serve god by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents god called and created them to be we produce free parenting resources trained church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness please visit us at truthloveparent .com

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so as host of iron sharpens iron radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio so anchored in truth ministries is the mission arm of grace life church of the shoals dictionaries in over 13 countries around the world as radio stations theological seminaries and various programs for unreachable what gary demar president of american vision had to say about iron sharpens iron radio recently good to be back chris i always enjoy our time you uh i have to tell you one of the better interviewers out there and i've been doing this for 30 more than 30 years wow that's some compliment how much do i owe you for that you don't have to owe me anything we're in good we're in good shape i'm glad you're sitting on the air so i don't have to brag about myself tell your friends and loved ones about iron sharpens iron radio airing live monday through friday 4 to 6 p .m

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that's historicalbiblesociety .org thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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has two titles that they have published by dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries that relate to our subject today we have letters to a mormon elder and also is the mormon my brother discerning the differences between mormonism and christianity these books are each 50 off right now as far as the pricing is concerned and you'll get an even bigger discount if you order them together that's letters to a mormon elder and is the mormon my brother discerning the differences between mormonism and christianity by dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries that's solid -ground -books .com

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frequently and purchase generously solid -ground -books .com before i return to michael wilder in our discussion of his book passport to heaven the true story of a zealous mormon missionary who discovers the jesus he never knew published by harvest house before we return to that discussion we just have a couple of very important announcements to make first of all if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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and put advertising in the subject line last but not least if you are without a bible believing theologically sound church wherever you live on the planet earth i may be able to help you find a church i have many lists of biblically faithful churches that span the globe and i've helped people in our audience in all parts of the planet earth find churches sometimes within a few minutes from where they live and they didn't even know that these churches existed or they didn't know these churches were biblically faithful so if that includes you if you need a church no matter where you live send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and put i need a church in the subject line oh and i forgot to mention folks please when you're giving to iron sharpens iron radio please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to iron sharpens iron radio please never do that in other words don't punish your own church financially by blessing iron sharpens iron radio financially and also please do not plunge your family into financial peril by giving to iron sharpens iron radio if you're really struggling to survive uh those two things are commands of scripture providing for your church and providing for your family providing for my radio show is not obviously a command of scripture but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love the show and you don't want to disappear you have extra money collecting interest you have extra money for recreational purposes and trivial purposes well please use some of that money to help us remain on the air if indeed you love the show go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now if you have a question for micah wilder send it to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa uh so we reached the point micah in your testimony where the gospel the true biblical gospel finally took root and uh you had experienced what we call what the scriptures call the new birth uh you were given a heart transplant by god himself he took away your heart of stone and gave you a heart of flesh and now you are a new creation in christ so tell us how you broke the news to your own family who were still in the church of jesus christ of latter -day saints yeah i like i love that description of getting a new heart right having a heart transplant and dying for my old self being crucified with christ raised to newness of life still a mormon missionary while i'm going through this process and trying to figure out how to come forward right to to my peers to my leaders to my family members about this change that's taking place in my life and of course god had a plan for all of this and his plan for me to come forward about my newfound faith was actually uh to share a public testimony in front of my mormon missionary peers and my leaders as a display of what i had learned throughout the course of my two -year mission trip and so that was god's uh way of answering my prayer was putting me in the situation where i then had to publicly witness before my my missionary peers what god had done in my life i shared my testimony that uh the grace of christ was sufficient for me that jesus alone was all that i needed and i didn't need anything or anyone else to be right with god and uh and that testimony ultimately led me to a confrontation with my mormon leader where i was challenged uh about my newfound faith and i shared with him what i had learned uh through reading the bible over the past two years witnessed to him that jesus alone was sufficient but his work on the cross was enough for me and that i had been born again and uh that actually led me to my mission being terminated three weeks early and i had to then go back to utah and face my family and my friends and those uh cultural and relational repercussions for my newfound faith in jesus so it was kind of a terrifying moment for me at 21 to realize that i was going to lose the only life i had ever known and loved i was going to have to um trust that what i had in christ was was greater than any loss that i was going to incur for the sake of the gospel and that's the hope that i found in the word of god that's the hope that i had in christ and that i still have in christ and that's that jesus is all sufficient to satisfy my every need that that he alone is enough and that whatever i lose and whatever i you know give up or walk away from for the sake of following jesus that there is always going to be a surpassing worth found in christ that i can never have in this world and i love john 635 where jesus says i am the bread of life whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst and so jesus satisfied me he fulfilled me in a way that mormonism never could my family never could any relationship never could and so i held on to that i went back to utah i told my mother my father my siblings why i had forsaken my faith i invited them and encouraged them to read the bible through the eyes of a child to approach the word of god and allow god through his word to show them truth and uh and told them that if they if they did that then god was going to show them that jesus was enough for them and that he was all sufficient and so my family um and i praise god that they were very open and very loving throughout this process i mean there was definitely uh tension and some of those familial relationships for a time but my family never fully rejected me i mean they never ostracized me i think they were more curious as to why i was willing to to give up mormonism and why i thought jesus alone was worth it and so that that little seed was planted in their hearts um and and each one of them began to investigate truth through the word of god and begin their own journey of coming to a saving faith in jesus and to this day uh my older brother matt and younger sister katie have been born again come to a saving faith in christ and my mother and my father although it took them a little bit more time have also come to a saving faith in christ and left the mormon church all to the praise and glory of god hallelujah and by the way uh after this program is over if you want to look up in our iron trumpets iron radio archive uh micah's mother lynn k wilder and her first name is spelled l -y -n -n lynn k wilder she has been on our program several times and you can hear those interviews that i conducted with her and also uh with um lynn's husband micah's dad uh and i'm sure you'll be blessed by those interviews as well and tell us how you came to form what is now known as adams road i want to air hopefully at least two songs by adams road before we go off the air today but tell us about how this group came to be made up entirely of former mormons as i said in the outset of the program one who is a former member of the fundamentalist polygamist cult within mormonism and the rest of you who were raised in the actual official or main denomination if you will within mormonism the church of jesus christ of latter -day saints so soon after returning from my mission um god just lit me on fire for the gospel like i knew that more than anything else in my life all i wanted to do was share the goodness of god that i had come to know in christ right and that's really how every christian should be i wanted to go out and i wanted to proclaim the gospel of jesus and so the same seeds that were planted in me and were planted in the lives of my loved ones one of them was one of my best friends who is a mormon missionary his name was joseph warren he accepted my challenge began reading the bible also came to saving faith and then he and my brother and two other gentlemen who were recently out of the mormon church at the time and come to faith in jesus formed adam's road and we all had a common background of music and we wanted to use that music as a vehicle to share the gospel and to communicate what god had done in our lives until we began adam's road in 2006 um so two of the members that originally formed adam's road are gone as you mentioned our fourth member now is lila labarin she's from the labarin community in northern mexico which is a polygamist community and she was rescued out of that about um eight years ago and she's been with us now for almost six years and so our purpose is that we go out and we proclaim the gospel through song through testimony we equip and encourage the church and we spend about four months out of each year traveling throughout north america and sharing our testimonies and giving away our music and just being an encouragement that there is power in the word of god power in the gospel message and that no person or situation is beyond the the reaches of god's grace to transform amen in fact i have interviewed a couple of other people on the old iron sharpens iron radio program broadcasting out of long island new york on wnyg and wgbb i interviewed two people from that same polygamist cult within mormonism in mexico that were a part or are a part of the labaron family both both a polygamist wife and a son of polygamist of a polygamist marriage but i'm going to play a song right now to to whet the appetites of our listeners on adam's road this song is called son of man do you have any background you'd like to give before i start playing it no i think the song speaks for itself you'll notice in the song and with all of our music we we we really just take the word of god and put it to music and so you'll notice there's a lot scriptures in there and uh and we just want to fill it with the word of god amen well here it is folks the son of man by adams road behold i'm standing here do you know i am at your door and i am knocking me i see you are wandering you are lost i call out to you i know your name i'll bring you out of darkness if you will call out to me you will be saved behold i'm standing here you know i am at your door and i am knocking and i am waiting for you if you open up i will rush in i will make my home and eat with you what are you waiting for i'm gonna stretch so rest from your words because of my great love hallelujah what a beautiful song that's son of man by adams wrote and uh you'll be hearing uh two more songs at least from their various albums that they have recorded over the years now i am going to start taking some of the questions from our listeners that have come in this first question i'm going to take happens to be from a mutual friend of mine and yours and also of your parents latane c scott uh dr latane has been a favorite guest of mine on my program since its inception in 2005 and i have also arranged interviews for her on different radio outlets before i had my own show she is also a former mormon for our listeners who are unfamiliar with latane c scott and she asks a great question a question that i would love to have heard back in the 1980s before i had my first encounter with the young mormon missionary on long island new york latane asks what is the most common mistake that christians make when approached by mormon missionaries that is a fantastic question so i'm going to address a couple things here number one um and i think this applies to mormons in general is that we make about what they believe and what i mean by that is that we interpret what they believe before we hear from them what they actually believe mormons can be anywhere on a wide spectrum of belief within even their own system so it's very important that we ask questions and we dialogue with them to understand what it is that they believe why they believe that so that we can then scripturally and lovingly address those specific beliefs so for example it's easy to just approach a mormon missionary and say dosa smith was a polygamist and he did all these things and and and here's all these bad things about mormonism and we're not really pulling out from that individual what it is they believe and why they believe and so that's one of the biggest mistakes that that we see um another one i would say is that we're not lovingly engaging with them we're approaching them with the mentality that trying to win an argument rather than plant a seed of the gospel in our hearts that we actually believe can come to fruition by the grace of god so when we see mormon missionaries we we need to see them as people who need truth and need love and need the gospel not people who need to be judged self -righteously not people who need to be condemned the people who need lovingly to hear the gospel of jesus christ amen and it's such a tragedy i don't know if you have heard this but my dear friend that i mentioned often on this show dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries who has committed quite a bit of his his apologetic work over the decades to mormonism to confronting mormonism exposing mormonism he had a regular annual presence with alpha omega ministries at various major mormon events both in utah and arizona and he finally withdrew from having these outdoor evangelistic efforts because unfortunately they eventually became overrun by people who were self -righteous they were not churchmen they were mavericks lone wolves roaming around who weren't even associated with any local church and their their major uh mission if you will was merely to mock harass and publicly condemn mormons as they were going in and out of these major events even burning effigies of joseph smith making a mockery of the uh sacred undergarments all that kind of thing and uh dr white did not want to be associated with that kind of juvenile and evil actually approach uh to uh i wouldn't even call it evangelism um confronting people uh with error who who possess error because it seems that actually uh a a loving approach a compassionate approach to reach the loss of the gospel had nothing to do with our itinerary if you follow what i'm saying yeah yeah yeah absolutely i mean that that is the that is the wrong way to approach anybody who is not saved in christ jesus we are called as the church to to love and that by this will all people know if you are my disciples if you have loved one to another and so we speak the truth and love we can be bold about the truth but we do it with compassion and because in our hearts we lovingly want them to know god's love in christ and and look i've been on that side of the fence i i've been a target before i've gotten in discussions with missionaries and and and quickly realized that my heart was not in the right place that i wasn't trying to to help them come to faith in jesus i was trying to prove to them how wrong they were or i was trying to you know um win an argument rather than genuinely want them to come to a saving faith jesus so remember the love that god had for you uh church when when when you were an unbeliever when you were an enemy to god when you were a sinner god demonstrated his love for you in sending christ jesus to die for your sin that is the love that the agape love that we are called to love one another with amen and let me give our dear friend dr latane c scott a plug for her own website it's latane .com

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l -a -t -a -y -n -e .com and she has written a book a classic apologetic work exposing the heresies of mormonism called the mormon mirage there is uh unfortunately another book that took that title by hank anagraph different book entirely so make sure that when you order a mormon mirage it's by dr latane c scott and you can find that at latane .com

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keep listening uh dr scott and keep spreading the word about iron trip design radio i also look forward to you coming back as a guest soon and often we have another listener who i've interviewed before a fascinating brother in christ who is also a former mormon uh he is steve cooley and he is the associate pastor of bethlehem bible church in west boylston massachusetts and uh so delighted to have heard and interviewed him on his own testimony of being delivered out of the cult of mormonism and uh he has a brother who left mormonism as well and i'll mention a story about that after you answer steve's questions i usually don't give people the liberty of asking three questions but since steve is a former mormon and his questions are so excellent i'll ask all of them uh he says uh i bought the book and i'm looking forward to reading it i have a grandson's birthday party to attend so i may miss a part of the answer to my questions i will listen on the archive program later if that's the case after sort this is the first question after sorting out who jesus is according to the bible did micah try to reconcile latter -day saint teaching with what he was reading in other words was his first thought the problem must be with me aka operator error yeah so my process was interesting because as i was learning truth through the bible i wasn't really seeing it as being contradictory to mormonism i didn't believe that it was leading me outside of the church it wasn't really until i had a very distinct awakening and and i dedicate a chapter in my book to this awakening that took place when i read the book of hebrews uh towards the end of my mission and i had read the book of times before but it was like i had a veil covering my eyes and and this one time it was like god just in that moment for the holy spirit chose to remove that veil entirely and what i discovered reading hebrews 7 through 10 was that jesus was the fulfillment of all of the elements of the old law that i was adhering to as a young mormon man i was putting my faith in the temple and the high priest and the priesthood and the prophets and yet i read and understood through the book of hebrews that jesus is the fulfillment of the old law that all of those aspects of the old law were just a type and a shadow of the reality to come and so i kind of tried to take the things that i was learning through the bible and keep my mormon faith until i came to that critical juncture and when i came to that juncture i realized that the mormon church at its core as very foundation was in fact not the true church of jesus but was in fact built on a man -made doctrine by joseph smith and at that point i no longer had any choice i had to turn and face jesus and recognize that he alone was the way to salvation and steve cooley's second question is while knowing the lds church is not the only true church and in fact is a false church as false as can be does he still cringe when people mock mormonism with tropes like holy underwear or the stories about polygamy yeah we already addressed that uh earlier uh but if you have any further comments to make yeah because it's not done in love and yes i do cringe not because i personally take offense to it but because i know that other people take offense to it and it's an unnecessary offense that actually becomes a stumbling block for us being able to preach the gospel so when we mock others for their faith and we mock others for their beliefs we actually remove ourselves from the opportunity that god gives us to speak the truth and love and and i saw that happen as a mormon i do not encourage it and and it is not the way that we need to approach people and so yes i understand that those things are untrue that they are anti -biblical but at the same time knowing that those things are wrong are not going to bring somebody to salvation the gospel is what's going to save because it is the power of god into salvation amen and uh micah actually will micah i'm sorry uh steve cooley is asking now the um basically the flip side of latane's question uh latane asked about mistakes uh to be avoided when being when you are approached by a mormon missionary and in a more positive sense steve is asking how does micah engage with mormon missionaries what specific approaches does he use so my approach to mormon missionaries is is of course you know be loving be gentle be compassionate um give them food give them water uh but when it comes to sharing the gospel is to ask questions um don't make assumptions about what they believe and keep the focus and the emphasis on the word of god on the gospel and on grace and so i really like the topics of sin and salvation sin being uh where what is your relationship with god and how are you separated from god and how are you then made reconciled to god right how are you saved what are the things that you must do in order to be right in in god's eyes and so going through and ultimately drawing out that they often don't know that they're forgiven they have an uncertainty as to whether or not they've done enough to appease god and so generally there is a sense of of fear as to i well i don't know if i've done enough i don't know if i'm good enough but i'm hoping that i'm good enough and so at that point that presents an opportunity to then bring up the gospel message and to share the the finished work of jesus christ on the cross that he did pay in full penalty and full measure the penalty of our sins and that by faith in him alone we can have the assurance of knowing that we're forgiven we can be clothed in the righteousness of christ that's been imputed towards us and we can in fact have eternal life and know that we have the guarantee of that eternal life now we don't have to wonder or follow these works or laws or ordinances in order to have that right standing with god and uh which i think that's a that's a great thing to to understand and know is to be able to communicate the gospel to be able to ask questions as you're doing so amen well thanks again steve for listening to this program and for submitting your questions i want to just plug his church because it's an excellent one bethlehem bible church of west boylston massachusetts the website is bbcchurch .org

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bbcchurch .org he also co -hosts a podcast no compromise radio that can be found at nocompromisedradio .com

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nocompromisedradio .com look forward to having you back on the program as well as your senior pastor steve uh so let's keep in touch about that uh we have grady a long -time listener of this show in ashborough north carolina also a very faithful financial supporter of this show greetings brothers i've listened to several ministries that target mormons for evangelism one thing that surprises me is that they say that most mormons when they come to realize that they've been lied to will turn to secularism was this true for your parents and you or did our heavenly father draw you to himself after the realization that mormon church was not telling the truth well obviously we heard the story of um our guest micah and his parents they pretty much fairly quickly came to embrace christ and his gospel uh but that is true though isn't it in fact it's true generally with people in false religions i have heard from apologists over and over again that very often uh when people realize that they've been lied to they don't want to be a part of any church or formal religion yeah yeah absolutely that's my observation in ministry is that there is an overwhelming majority of people that when they come to recognize the fallacy of mormonism that they are are disenchanted with religion and god altogether obviously that didn't happen with me and it didn't happen with me because it wasn't the learning of the church not being true that drew me away from mormonism it was the truth revealed in the word of god but i wasn't seeking anything outside of mormonism i was looking for it to be untrue and it wasn't the elements of mormonism being untrue that actually drew me away from it it was the truth that was revealed in the word of god uh in the bible alone which is why our ministry uh emphasizes the scripture right that when we're witnessing the gospel to mormons to jehovah's witnesses right really to anybody that we need to focus on the word of god and we need to get them into the word of god so that they don't drift away from from truth altogether and and go into secular humanism and and uh agnosticism and all these things that we see all too often thank you grady give us your full mailing address in ashborough north carolina and you will be getting a free copy of micah wilder's new book his autobiographical book passport to heaven the true story of a zealous mormon missionary who discovers the jesus he never knew compliments of harvest house publishing and also compliments of our friends at cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com

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who will be shipping that book out to you at no cost to you or to iron trip and zion radio and before we go to our final break i want to play another song and do you have any uh any uh description or explanation of tongues of fire that you'd like to give before i play this song uh no no just let her rip all right uh brothers and sisters ladies and gentlemen here's tongues of fire by adams road he who doesn't enter she pulled by the door but tries to climb it by another way he is a thief and a robber because as i've said before oh only through me you'll be saved you may be wondering how can we know the way this is eternal in the beginning who became grace and him to fulfill i am the truth i am the lie and no no one can come to go through my sacrifice tongues of fire don't go away we'll be right back with more of michael wilder after these messages from our sponsors back in town i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries my friend chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are headed down to atlanta georgia once again for the g3 conference this year's g3 will be held thursday september 30th through saturday october 2nd on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of god through preaching teaching and singing including john macarthur phil johnson conrad and bayway daryl bernard harrison and virgil walker for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com chris arnson and i hope to see you september 30th through october 2nd at g3 21.

01:47:19

this is james white reminding you that christ is supreme overall. when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of red mills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order the wokeness in the gospel conference is coming to denton bible church in denton texas june 11th and 12th register now by going online to wokeness and gospel .org

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featuring speakers such as dr owen if you just buy this ideology the world's going to be made right no it's not only jesus christ makes the world right daryl harrison of the just thinking podcast sinners like you and me can be reconciled first and foremost to god and consequently to one another pastor tom buck of first baptist church in lindale texas like satan in the garden woke hermeneutics undermines the very authority of the word of god i don't say that like also hear from tommy nelson charles stolfos and rodney brown confronting the lies being impressed upon the culture today threatening even to divide the church and answering with the gospel of jesus christ the wokeness in the gospel conference coming to denton bible church june 11th and 12th register online at wokeness and gospel .org

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we are back and micah we have a listener in lindenhurst long island new york cj who asks the question i have heard that the only people according to mormon theology who will actually be cast into eternal hell are apostate mormons mormons who have abandoned their religion is that true yes that is true um the definition of what uh constitutes an apostate is kind of up for debate but essentially it's those who have had a full knowledge of the truth and then rejected that truth and so somebody like my parents for example like me we went to the temple we performed the ordinances you know and did all those aspects of mormonism and then rejected it and now openly speak against it i would say that we could possibly qualify for for you know what they call outer darkness now uh i remember years ago before you were even born i'm sure when a notorious murderer gary gilmore was uh sentenced to death in utah he requested to be executed by firing squad i'm not sure if they still permit that in utah but i know that behind that idea of desiring the firing squad if you were a mormon who had backslidden committed a murder and wanted to be right with god before you died and left this earth had something to do with the that murder required your own blood being shed is am i making sense here is there i don't know if i have the whole truth to that but is that a part of how murderers must be made right with god in mormon theology is by the shedding of their own blood uh that's a that's a very sensitive topic and it stems from a doctrine from brigham young that was called uh blood atonement which is essentially that there are certain sins in which the blood of jesus christ is not sufficient to cover and therefore the blood of the individual must be shed in order to cover those sins murder being one of them i think that is very much an archaic mormon doctrine i don't know or believe that really any mormon today adhere to that particular doctrine most of them would would reject it or say that it's not part of their their canon now but it certainly was something that was taught in the 1800s by a mormon prophet correct correct but again those types of and i should clarify those types of doctrines and issues are not good talking points with latter -day saints uh whenever you bring up things like that it's immediately going to cause them to put up a wall and to put up barriers and it's going to really uh inhibit your ability to to present the gospel to them and so my encouragement is really not to find the obscure doctrines or history of mormonism but to really stick with the things that are part of you know their their daily defining faith and then to use that as a springboard to share the gospel right like unless you're actually dialoguing with a fundamentalist mormon who believes in polygamy to bring a polygamy to an average mormon who doesn't even believe or practice it today is wasting it wasting your time basically right um and as far as though uh the guest i'm sorry not the guest the listener uh cj's question uh i'm assuming then if only apostate mormons are going to hell everybody else is going to have some kind of eternal joy after departing this earth no matter who they are am i correct that's correct so so there are three levels of of heaven um in mormon theology three kingdoms of heaven and so each one uh you know in order to achieve each one there are certain requirements and prerequisites that an individual must follow so essentially the lowest kingdom of heaven which is called the telestial kingdom that's really going to be anybody outside of you know mormon apostate to abandon the faith i mean it can be murderers it can be thieves liars non -christians people that have even totally denied christ will receive some paradise some redemption the middle kingdom would be for christians or good people and then maybe the the bad mormons who did not you know faithfully follow the laws and ordinances of mormonism and then the highest kingdom of heaven the celestial kingdom would be reserved for the faithful and the worthy mormons who will who were temple worthy and continued faithful and mormonism throughout their lives well it has been such a joy being on the program with you micah i look forward to your return to the program uh not only uh you yourself alone but also as i've said to you before i'd love to have your entire band interviewed one by one looking forward to having your parents back on the program as well but i want to remind our listeners if you want more information about adams road ministry go to adamsroadministry .com

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adamsroadministry .com and if you want to find out more about passport to heaven the autobiography of michael wilder go to harvesthousepublishers .com

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harvesthousepublishers .com and i would urge you to purchase it from cvbbs .com however because they sponsor our program carmelin valley bible book service cvbbs .com