June 1, 2021 Show with Micah Wilder on “Passport to Heaven: The True Story of a Zealous Mormon Missionary Who Discovers the Jesus He Never Knew”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

first day of June 2021.

I trust you all had a very refreshing and joyful and

glorious and Christ -centered Memorial Day weekend, and I hope that you took a part of that

time to give honor to those brave heroes

who have given life and limb for the freedoms that we take for

granted every day in this nation.

Today, I'm so excited to have on the program Micah Wilder.

He is a former Mormon missionary and son of a former professor at Brigham Young

University, who I've interviewed on this program before, Linda K. Wilder, and I've also interviewed

Micah's father as well.

Micah is also the co -founder, drummer, bassist, and guitarist for Adam's Road, which is a Christian

non -profit testimony and musical ministry based in Winter Garden, Florida,

comprised solely of former Mormons, three of which are former Latter -day

Saints, and one was raised in the fundamentalist polygamist Mormon cult,

and they were all rescued by the true gospel of the true Jesus Christ of the true scriptures.

Today, we're going to be addressing Micah's new book, hot off the press, Passport to Heaven, the

true story of a zealous Mormon missionary who discovers the Jesus he never knew, and it's my honor

and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Micah Wilder.

Chris, it's an honor to be here.

I appreciate this opportunity.

And I enjoyed meeting you face -to -face.

Assuming that was about three years ago, perhaps two, in Franklin, Tennessee,

at Grace Church at Franklin, where my friend Bill Sasser is the pastor,

and you and your group, Adam's Road, provided the music

for the Bunyan Conference, named after John Bunyan, that was held there.

And that was such a joy, not only to meet you face -to -face, but to meet all of your group's members.

And although I had spoken with your mom quite a number of times before that, and your dad,

it was nice to meet your parents face -to -face for the first time there.

Yeah, yeah, it was great to meet you in person.

I'd heard your voice so many times on the radio, and I know we've kind

of known each other and connected via email for several years now, but

finally able to see this become a reality.

Yes, I remember.

I think this may be your first time on the show, but I remember Adam's Road was going to be passing

through this area, and we were going to have all of you right here in the studio.

But you, I don't know if it was all the group, but there was a great portion of the group stranded somewhere

because the car either broke down or there was something that happened that prevented providentially you

folks from being on the show.

But I'm glad that you are on the show finally.

And am I correct that this is the first time you're on the program?

Yes, that's correct.

Okay, great.

Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they have questions of their own they'd like to ask

you.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are currently right now a Mormon, but you have been

studying the scriptures and you've been hearing the sermons of Bible -believing evangelical Christians and you're starting to

rethink your religion.

Perhaps it's even a religion that you were raised in.

Perhaps it's even a religion you are a leader in.

And you don't want to quite yet reveal your identity because you haven't completely thought these things

through yet.

And the Lord has not yet done a miracle of a heart transplant

in your life where you have received a new heart to believe the true gospel of the true

Christ.

Well, we would understand that you would remain anonymous at this time, but if it's just a general

question on Micah's testimony, a general question regarding the Bible, regarding

theology, regarding a contrast between biblical Christianity and Mormonism, please give us at

least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, it's interesting that every time we have a first -time guest on this program, we

have them give a summary of their testimony on how they came to Christ.

But in this case, the whole interview will be on that because that is the theme of your book,

Passport to Heaven.

And I'm assuming that you were raised from infancy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints, were you not?

That's correct.

So my mother and my father were actually born in Christian homes and when they were in their early

20s, short after they were knocked on their door

when they were graduate students in Indiana, and came and presented to them

this gospel of the Mormon Church.

And they were very enamored by these young men and by this message and ultimately were

baptized into the Mormon Church.

And then they were very zealous and faithful and active in Mormonism from that point forward, and they raised those

children in a very active and devout Mormon home.

And I'm assuming that most of your memories of growing up as a

Mormon were wonderful memories.

People who leave religions don't necessarily leave them because of

some kind of horrible nightmarish experiences.

I was a Roman Catholic before coming to Christ and understanding his gospel,

and I don't have any nightmares of being raised a Catholic.

I don't have any nightmares from going to a Catholic parochial school for eight years

or being an altar boy or anything like that.

I enjoyed much of my Catholic upbringing, but I realized that there was a different gospel at a certain point in my

life.

So tell us something about your own upbringing.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

I think a lot of people end up leaving their religious system because they become disenchanted

with it.

That wasn't the case with me.

Mine was a very clear and distinct drawing of God into a relationship

with him.

I had a very wonderful childhood in the Mormon Church.

I had good memories with my family, with my religion, and with that

whole community of Mormonism.

It was very family -centered, very moral -centered, and it grounded me as a young man.

So I was never really seeking anything outside of it.

I really believed that it offered me everything that I would ever need,.

And I really loved it with all of my heart.

You know, I think it would be a good thing for you to explain the primary

religious beliefs of Mormonism that contrast, that are, in fact, the

polar opposite of beliefs held by Bible -believing evangelical Christians.

There are many within evangelicalism that are completely ignorant of Mormonism.

Some might even be so naive or ignorant that they believe Mormonism is

just another denomination of Christianity, especially since there seems to be the

public relations approach of Mormons these days in the 21st century.

It seems to be a radically different approach that I have even personally encountered with Mormon missionaries.

Their mission, it seemed, was not to let me know that I was in a false church and needed to be directed

to the true church.

It was to let me know, Hey, don't be afraid of Mormons.

We're just like you.

We're just another Christian group.

But tell us about these key distinctives that might even surprise

some of our evangelical listeners.

Yeah, so that's actually a really astute observation.

I think that the Mormon Church has made a very concerted effort in the last 10, 15, 20

years to really enmesh themselves into evangelical Christianity.

They're part of this greater worldwide body of Christ, but they do, in fact, have very

distinct doctrines from that of Orthodox Christianity.

So I'll kind of speak without getting into too many of the very obscure doctrines.

I'll kind of talk about some of the things that were part of my childhood growing up and what I was taught.

The biggest thing was that the Mormon Church, we believed, was the only true and living church upon the face of

the earth.

Now, what that meant was,.

We believed that the Mormon Church was actually the physical institution and organization

that Jesus himself established during his earthly ministry.

And after the death of Christ and the apostles, the Mormon Church teaches that there was apostasy from the

truth, meaning that the authority from the earth

and the truth was lost for seen hundreds.

If you've heard of Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, he was called by God to be a prophet and to

restore that origin.

So right there, you have a very distinct teaching that there is actually a physical within

it.

So they are water baptism.

Second one would be receiving and becoming a

member of a lifetime of

following commandments and laws and ordinances that an individual must

do.

The Mormon Temple,

Temple that we live a life of faith,

evangelical Christianity and Mormonism, that in Mormonism, it is a works -based

righteousness.

Now, most Mormons will deny that and they'll say, well, we don't believe that we can earn our salvation.

And I would have said that as a young Mormon man as well, however,

work on the cross for my own salvation.

And what I mean by that is that I was trying to add to or contribute to what Jesus did.

So I never would have said that Jesus died unnecessarily or that I could get to heaven

outside of God's grace, but that I myself had to add my own works and my

own righteousness and my own merits to that which Christ did.

And so in that way, you have played contradiction to

the gospel as revealed in the word of God.

In modern day prophets, they believe that there is a prophet.

There are also apostles in the New

Testament

believe that they've been

in addition

to that, which was revealed in scripture and probably and

what's the

translation we use for Mormon, the Doctrine and

Covenants and the Pearl of Great Pain, the word of God.

And in fact, if you would have asked me if it was the highest and which book was the lowest, I would have

said that the book of Mormon would have the highest authority and the Bible would have the lowest authority.

And the reason why I would have said that is because we were taught that the Bible,

that it was not

the inerrant

word of God.

It was, in fact, an imperfect, corrupted document.

And so although we believed in the Bible and we pulled truth from the Bible, it was not our

exclusive God.

And therefore we were successful.

The last thing I'll mention is probably the biggest difference in Mormon theology and

biblical theology, and that is the very nature of God himself.

So in Mormon theology, it has not

always been with a man who

progressed to kind, have the

potential to become God's as well.

So although there is one father to us,.

The father is one of many,.

Possibly millions of gods who have eternally progressed to

obedience to the ordinances of Mormonism.

Sure, if God is revealed in scripture in Isaiah 41, 42, 43, that there is only one God, there is no

other God beside me.

We know that God is from everlasting too.

It created a being that was not eternal.

And then he himself actually created

always the Logos, the Word.

So I know that was a

lot, but those are kind of some of the, to me, biblical...

Yeah, that last belief is without question the most

heretical, some might even call blasphemous, of the Mormon teachings.

And I'm probably going to butcher this, but I remember a quote by Lorenzo Snow,

who was a very prominent Mormon, and it was something like,

"'As God once was, we are now.

As God now is, we shall become, or we may become.'".

Is that something close to what Lorenzo Snow said?

Yeah, yeah, I think he said exactly, as man is, God once was,

and as God is, man may become.

There you go.

And so that's the idea of this eternal progression of godhood within Mormonism.

Now, there is a defense,

I would say, by Mormons

that they are not truly polytheistic because they

only worship one God.

How do you reply to Mormons that would insist upon that?

Yeah, so you're right.

That's probably how a Mormon.

Would respond, is that,.

Although there may be many gods.

Out somewhere in the universe, to us on this planet, right, there is only one God and one creator.

We know that there is no other God, there is only one God, that God is eternal in nature, and he has always been

eternal in nature.

And so I would simply go to the scriptures and point out the fact that God did not become God.

If God was once a man, then he is not the eternal God as revealed in the Bible.

Yes, and, uh, I believe that the approach of

Mormonism could also be referred to as henotheism, H -E -N -O

-theism.

Is that true?

There are multiple gods, but there is a hierarchy of authority and power?

Right, correct.

And so, going back to your testimony, I'm assuming since your mother was a Brigham Young University

professor, that you were raised in Provo?

So I actually originally was raised in the Midwest, in Indiana, and so

I lived there, and then going into my freshman year of high school, we moved to Utah when

my mother got a job at BYU.

And so I spent about four years of my, you know, prime teenage years through high school in the heart of

Mormonism, right there in Alpine, Utah.

And so tell us about this pivotal occurrence,

actually what led up to this pivotal occurrence in your life, where you volunteered

to become a Mormon missionary, I believe, in Florida.

And I understand that at least the first Mormon missionary I

encountered as a born -again believer, he was

about, I don't know, 1920, 21, perhaps.

And he had flown up from California to Long Island, New York, where I used to live.

And he had to pay his own way to get to New York.

He had to pay for his own apartment while living there.

And basically he was doing this because he wanted to share what he

believed was the only true religion with others.

And this was before the days, this was in the 1980s, it was before the days where there was

a full -blown ecumenism going on, or a full -blown falsifying of

the agenda of the Mormon Church.

As I said earlier, the last Mormons I encountered right here in the streets of Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

within about the two -minute walk from where I'm sitting right now, the last two occurrences I

had or encounters I had with Mormon missionaries in the street were them telling

me that, hey, you probably heard some crazy things about the Mormon Church that they think they're the

only true church, but no, we're just another Christian denomination like you, man.

But my experience was not quite that ecumenical back in the

80s.

And this young Mormon missionary was actually a lot more honest and understanding, it

seemed, of true Mormon theology, although, and we could get to this later, he

was shocked when I told him that it is a Mormon belief,

I believe originated by Brigham Young, that Jesus Christ was conceived

by a physical sexual union between God, who tabernacled in the flesh,

and Mary.

And he swore that that was not true, that I was lying, or that I had heard a false teaching.

In fact, before we even get into your story there, was I correct in

stating that, that that was a teaching of Brigham Young?

It was a teaching of some.

Of the early,.

And that's the difficult thing.

With Mormons,.

Is trying to identify what is actual doctrine, right?

Because you've had a lot of unique and very obscure doctrines

taught by Mormon leaders over the years, but then sometimes those doctrines by

modern day

are actually very ignorant to their own teachings.

So the missionary that had.

Never heard that before,.

He was probably, you know, genuine in believing that.

However, it definitely isn't.

Now, since Brigham Young was a chief, a key prophet,

succeeding Joseph Smith, unless you're a RDLS member who believed

Joseph Smith's son was the true heir apparent of the Mormon church,

but Brigham Young is one, obviously, even the major

university is named after him.

Obviously, if he's a prophet, there's a difference between me

rejecting things by one of my most beloved heroes of the Christian faith,

Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

There's a difference between me saying, oh, there's an area where I disagree with Charles.

I love Charles, believe in most of what he believes, but that's an area I have to part ways with him.

But when you're talking.

About a prophet, Charles Haddon Spurgeon never claimed to be a prophet.

Nobody views him as a prophet.

So how do you get around that being a tertiary

area of importance where it was coming from the lips of a prophet?

Yeah, I mean,.

To be honest,.

You can't get around it.

And that is part of the challenge with engaging.

Mormons is so many of them are either ignorant to or they simply ignore doctrines that have

spoken.

By their own prophets.

But as you mentioned, I mean, Brigham Young claimed to be the mouthpiece of God, and he was a prophet and a

seer and a revelator, and he spoke God's word and God's will to mankind.

And you either believe that or you don't.

So like you said, when we have disagreements within the body of Christ, or we know that, you know, even Martin Luther and all the great things he did and

said, did and said some very foolish things as well.

But I'm not adhering to or following Martin Luther as a prophet, nor did he ever claim to be one.

Right?

And so that's the difference is that ultimately we go back to the word established and then we

test all things.

Against the word.

But in the Mormon church, they're actually going to man in order to establish truth.

And it's a very dangerous road because that is how we are led away.

Yeah.

In fact, that even the contrast came up during my conversations

in the 80s with this young Mormon missionary about racism, because I had

asked him how he reacted to the fact that his church is really rooted in

racial bigotry, white supremacy.

And he said, who are you to talk?

There are Baptists in the Ku Klux Klan.

And I said, yeah, but there are Baptists in hell or any of your prophets in hell.

There's a big difference between a prophet and a founder of your church and some

moron who happens to claim to be a Baptist who's a white supremacist.

So obviously there is a huge difference, isn't there?

Yeah, absolutely.

All right.

We're going to our first station break right now.

And then when we come back, we'll get into the heart of your confrontation,

your collision, as it were, you being in a collision course with an evangelical Christian minister

while you are a missionary for the Mormon church in Florida.

And if anybody, again, has any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is Micah Wilder, a former Mormon

missionary, son of a former professor at Brigham Young University, and co -founder, drummer,

bassist, and guitarist for Adam's Road, a Christian nonprofit testimony and musical

ministry based in Winter Garden, Florida.

And we are addressing Micah's book today, Passport to Heaven, the true story of a zealous Mormon missionary who

discovered that Jesus, he never knew.

So tell us about your experiences in Florida as a missionary

and how you encountered this evangelical.

So I arrived in Florida in 2004, a very zealous and very devout Mormon missionary,

and I was kind of akin to Saul of Tarsus, where I had a zeal that was even beyond my

peers and my contemporaries.

And so I immediately, upon arrival, began going out, trying to make converts, believing that

bringing people into Mormonism was saving them and bringing them to salvation.

And so I knocked on a lot of doors, on the sidewalks, encountered

many different types of people.

I did encounter a lot in my mission, and I remember that

I wasn't very impressed by the way that they engaged with us.

And what I mean by that is that most of them were not very kind to us and they weren't very loving.

And in fact, they would kind of tell us, well, you're an occult and you're going to hell and we don't want to listen to your message.

And then they'd slam the door in our face.

And I remember that really made.

An impact on my life.

Because I would walk away.

From those homes because I don't want anything to

do with them.

And it only further kind of solidified my testimony in Mormonism.

About four months into my mission, and so

confident in my ability to convert other people that I actually,

my Mormon mission companion and I arrived and we

actually went to,

that was actually a moment for me when I sat there and heard the gospel through

this church service and through these hymns that were being sung and I was very moved by it.

And then at the end of the service,.

We went and introduced Alan Benson and we said, Pastor Benson,

we're missionaries from the Mormon church and we'd like to sit down with you and share with you a message about the gospel.

From the onset, this is such a critical moment of my testimony.

And it's critical because, Pastor, the way that so many other quote

unquote Christians

enough that this man

that we are called

by that and very confused by it.

It continued on.

I pressed forward in my zeal because I believed that this man was in darkness and that we had the fullness of the

gospel.

Two days later, we sat down with him

about all of the things that we believed were necessary for salvation history

and the affliction.

And all the things.

That were represented the only true authority and

church of Christ on the earth.

Sharing our beliefs is that he was very respectful throughout this entire experience.

Like he didn't interject.

He didn't, you know,.

Condemn us.

He knew that

when our turn was over, he was going to have something to share with us and we were going to have to

reciprocate.

We posed the question.

To this pastor.

We said, what do you think about what we shared with you?

Right.

And I thought,.

Well, we've done a really great job and I felt like I was a really good missionary and I had communicated these things so

clearly.

And I figured,.

Well, he's going to know that this is true.

And the very first thing that pastor Benson said in response,.

He said,.

I appreciate the dedication that you have to what you believe,

but what I need to tell you is that the gospel that you have just shared with me, the message you have

delivered is not the saving gospel that has been revealed.

In the Bible.

And that was really.

Probably the first time in my life that I had been challenged and

so faced.

The very foundation of my belief system was in fact in the Bible.

And that was a very difficult, very necessary.

Now, how long after that did the gospel take root in your heart?

When I had my first encounter with a Mormon missionary in the 80s, when I was a

brand new Christian, well, at least a reasonably recent Christian, I was

probably, I probably would have been accurately described as being a cage stage

Calvinist.

I was probably a lot more rude than I needed to be with people that disagreed

with my theological views.

But the Mormon missionary in my living room on Long Island, he was

very angry at the end of our time together.

I don't think that I was really all that rude as I mentioned that I

probably was guilty of some of that, but he was being confronted, especially with Brigham Young's

view of God tabernacling in the flesh and having a sexual

union with Mary to conceive Jesus.

He was packing up the stuff.

He was very angry.

And he told me, you know, all you've done today is you've made me more determined to be the best Mormon that I'll ever be.

And he was quite upset.

How was your, or what was your reaction like when this pastor had

given you, presented to you the true gospel?

Yeah, so it was probably very comparable to that missionary that you engaged with.

And so after I heard, so after he initially told me that the gospel I believed in was not

the same gospel, he then proceeded to communicate the true and the saving gospel in a very

clear and a very succinct and a very powerful way.

And in a way that was directly through the word of God, scriptures.

And the amazing thing about his experience is that he didn't kind of go the route that you did.

Like he really just kept to the scriptures.

He kept the grace to the gospel, to the truth of God's work in Christ.

But it still offended me nonetheless.

And it still frustrated me and it angered me.

And I always tell people we

present the gospel and we shouldn't engage in topics that we know are going to be deliberately offensive.

However, the word of God will offend.

And if the word of God does offend,.

Then let it be.

And so Pastor Benson offended me, but it wasn't because of his approach.

It was because I was offended by the word of God.

You know, it's living and it's active and it's sharper than any two -edged sword.

And I was pierced by that sword.

And it's amazing that I'm hearing the gospel message, the love of God in Christ, and yet it's making me

angry.

And it was making me angry because it contradicted the fundamental belief system that I had been raised

in and that I was teaching.

As a Mormon missionary.

And it really was a difficult experience for me to hear that at

the end of my meeting with Pastor Benson, that I was very

frustrated and even getting to the point of, you know, having anger.

And I think he was trying to calm me down.

He said, look, young man, you don't have to trust me.

You don't have to listen to what I'm telling you.

But what I would challenge you to do is to find

out in particular and read it through the eyes of a

child.

Read it like a child.

And I promise you that if you approach God's word without preconceived notions, you remove those religious lenses

from your eyes and allow God through his word.

Your life will never be the same and God is going to open your eyes.

And follow God's word.

Praise God.

And by the way, I don't want to give anybody a picture, an exaggerated picture, that I was a really

nasty jerk in that confrontation with a Mormon missionary.

I never raised my voice or used ad hominem.

I never told him that he was a fool or I never told him that he was ignorant or anything like

that.

In fact, I told him to do his own homework when he left there and read the scriptures.

And I also told him to check up on Brigham Young's belief that I had

mentioned to him that got him so upset.

I said, check your own Mormon documents about whether or not Brigham Young believes that Jesus was

conceived through a physical sexual union between God and Mary.

And when I had called him back about three weeks later, we

were both pleasant with each other, but he said that he had not had the time to check up on what I said and he kind of rushed me

off the phone.

But I am so thrilled to hear that the Lord used this servant of God.

Now, I would love to give him a plug here on the show.

What was this pastor's name in the church?

So it was Pastor Alan Benson and he's no longer at that church.

He's actually the vice president of discipleship at Bob Jones University now.

Oh, great.

And is serving there and God is using him to make a huge impact in that community.

So yeah, Alan Benson.

Great.

And I had the privilege of seeing in person the president of

Bob Jones University at a Reformed Bible conference in Manhattan, which was

very surprising to many people because Bob Jones doesn't have a history of being very friendly

towards Reformed theology.

But I was very impressed with the current president of

BJU.

And I was very impressed by his message and it seemed very much in

harmony with my own beliefs.

So very happy to hear about what's going on at BJU these days.

So you said, like the Mormon missionary I encountered for the first time, that you were upset, but

tell me about approaching the Bible like a child, like you were instructed by

Pastor Benson and when the gospel finally took root in your heart.

Yeah.

So when I had this challenge upon myself, I did not do

it in the way that Pastor Benson instructed me.

In fact, I very much did it with pride because I knew that I was

right and I was not a Mormon.

Who ever doubted my faith.

I never questioned it.

I never even conceived that the things that I had been taught my entire life by my religious

leaders, you know, could be untrue.

And so I was really Bible as a weapon,

again, against the whole evangelical community by proving my own belief system.

Through the Bible.

And in particular, the New Testament.

And I remember kind of thinking to myself,.

Well, although we have.

All of this extra biblical structure, surely I can prove that the Mormon church is what

it claims to be using exclusively the New Testament.

And so that was really.

My mindset,.

Was a prideful and arrogant heart.

And that's why I started reading the Bible.

Was to prove Pastor Benson wrong.

And so that very night,.

Actually, I sat down,.

I opened up my Bible,.

My King James Bible to Matthew chapter one, and I began to read and I had no idea, nor did I have

any inkling.

That anything in my life.

Was going to change.

And to be honest,.

I didn't want anything.

In my life to change in that I wasn't looking for truth outside of Mormonism.

And so I didn't think.

That reading the Bible.

Was going to teach me.

Anything that I didn't.

Already know.

And I think that that is evident to

me unless the fog began this incredible process.

In my entire life.

As a Mormon missionary where I started.

So I read the New Testament to go back

and I wanted

to read it.

I wasn't reading the Bible,.

But yet the Bible.

Was pouring truth into my heart.

And so God was using his word inadvertently to me to begin to change my life

and to open up my heart.

And my mind and my eyes.

To spiritual truth that I wasn't even awake.

And I read the New Testament again.

And then I did that again.

And I did, I continued.

I read, each

time I read the word of God, God was showing me something new and he was washing me through the

water of his blindness that had

been on my eyes my entire life.

And he started to show me that there was something more and something greater than that which I had ever known

in Mormonism.

And so I started to see all these scriptures that were taking root.

In my heart.

And because of the great love which he loved

us, even when we were dead and our trespasses.

Made us alive.

Together with Christ by grace, right?

And then on to, you know, 8 and 9, for by grace you have been saved through faith, it's not your own doing.

And so all of a sudden I'm starting to see that salvation, eternal life

is not worthy of because

it's defined by his grace.

Scripture after scripture,.

When the goodness.

And the loving kindness of God our Savior is done by us in righteousness,

we establish righteousness for our own merits.

And the whole law.

That was established was evidence that we were

required by

our

salvation.

And of course, we know that greater host.

Of Nazareth,.

Who was born 2 ,000 years ago of a virgin,.

His own life.

Is our substitute

that we desert.

On our behalf, we could be given the

forgiveness of our sins.

And that was the message of the gospel and it was the same gospel.

It was the same gospel that was so, that I mocked for being,.

And yet it was...

Well, we're going to, we're going to pick up where you left off there.

We're going to our midway break right now.

Please be patient with us, folks.

It's the longer the normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer

break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to air their own public service announcements

in the midway break while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So send in your questions to Micah Wilder, to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

Don't go away.

Hello,

dear ones.

My name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and

I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the United States.

We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday,

September 30th through Saturday, October the 2nd on the theme Christ is

supreme over all.

I'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers, including John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Vody

Balkam, Joel Beakey, and James White.

For details, visit g3conference .com.

That's G, the number three, conference .com.

Please join Chris Arnson and me September 30th through October the 2nd at G3

2021.

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

We

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the Shoals.

Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations,

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To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org.

Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris.

I always enjoy our time.

You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30,

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Wow, that's some compliment.

How much do I owe you for that?

You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good, we're in good shape.

I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said Give yourself unto reading.

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Before I return to Michael Wilder in our discussion of his book Passport to Heaven

The True Story of a Zealous Mormon Missionary Who Discovers the Jesus He Never Knew published by

Harvest House before we return to that discussion we just have a couple of very

important announcements to make.

First of all if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves please go to

ironsharpensironradio .com click support then click click to donate.

Now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion if you prefer snail mail there are some

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I could certainly use your advertising dollars to help this program keep broadcasting on the

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Last but not least if you are without a bible -believing theologically sound church

wherever you live on the planet earth I may be able to help you find a church.

I have many lists of biblically faithful churches that span the globe and I've helped people in our

audience in all parts of the planet earth find churches sometimes within a few minutes from where they live

and they didn't even know that these churches existed or they didn't know these churches were biblically faithful.

So if that includes you if you need a church no matter where you live send me an email to chrisarns at

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Oh and I forgot to mention folks please when you're giving to IronTrap and Zion Radio please never siphon money away from your

regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to

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In other words don't punish your own church financially by blessing IronTrap and Zion Radio financially.

And also please do not plunge your family into financial peril by

giving to IronTrap and Zion Radio if you're really struggling to survive those two things are

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Providing for my radio show is not obviously a command of scripture.

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love the show and

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If you have a question for Micah Wilder send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com ChrisArnson at gmail .com

and give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

So we reached the point Micah in your testimony where the gospel the true

biblical gospel finally took root and you had experienced

what the scriptures call the new birth.

You were given a heart transplant by God himself he took away your heart of

stone and gave you a heart of flesh.

And now you are a new creation in Christ.

So tell us how you broke the news to your own family who were still in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints.

Yeah I love that description dying for

my old self of life still a Mormon missionary while I'm going through

this process and trying to figure out how to my peers to my

leaders to my family members about this change that's taking place in my life.

And of course God had a plan for all of this.

And his plan for me to come forward about my newfound faith was actually testimony

in front of my Mormon missionary peers and my leaders of

what I had learned throughout the course of my two -year mission trip.

And so that was God's way of answering.

My prayer was putting me in the situation where I then had to put my

missionary peers what God had done in my life.

I shared my testimony that

Jesus alone was all that I needed and I didn't need anything or anyone else to be right with God.

And that testimony ultimately led me to a confrontation with my Mormon leader where

I was challenged about my newfound faith and I shared with him.

What I had learned.

Through reading the Bible over the past two years witnessed to him which

was enough for me and that I had been born again and that actually led me

to my mission being terminated three weeks early and I had to then go back to Utah

and face my family and my friends and those cultural and relational repercussions

for my newfound faith in Jesus.

So it was kind of a terrifying moment for me.

21 to really if I had ever known in love I was going

to have to

take of the gospel that I had in Christ and that I still

have to satisfy my every need that he alone is enough.

And that whatever I lose.

And whatever I you know give up or walk away from for the sake of following

surpassing works found in Christ that I can never have and I love John 6

35 where Jesus says.

I am the bread of life.

Whoever comes to me shall not hunger shall never thirst.

And so Jesus satisfied me.

He fulfilled me in a way that Mormon family never could any relationship

held on to that.

I went back to Utah.

I told my mother my father

encouraged them to allow God

through his way and

to show them that Jesus was enough for them and that he was all sufficient.

And so my family.

I praise God that they were very open and very loving throughout this process.

I mean there was definitely tension in some of those familial relationships for a time but my

family never fully rejected me.

I mean they never ostracized me.

I think they were to why I was willing to give up

Mormonism and why I sought Jesus alone so that little seed was planted in their

hearts and each one of them begin to investigate truth through the word of God and begin their own

journey of coming to a saving faith in Jesus.

And to this day.

My older brother Matt.

And younger born again come to a saving faith in Christ.

And my mother and my father.

Although it took them a little bit more time in Christ and left the

Mormon church all to the praise and glory of God.

Hallelujah.

And by the way after this program is over if you want to look up in our Iron Sharpens Iron radio

archive Micah's mother Lynn K. Wilder and her first name is

spelt L -Y -N -N Lynn K. Wilder.

She has been on our program several times and you can hear those interviews that I conducted

with her and also with Lynn's husband

Micah's dad and I'm sure you'll be blessed by those interviews as well.

And tell us how you came to form what is now known as Adam's Road.

I want to air hopefully at least two songs by Adam's Road before we go off the

air today.

But tell us about how this group came to be made up entirely of former Mormons as

I said in the outset of the program one who is a former member of

the fundamentalist polygamist cult within Mormonism.

And the rest of you who were raised in the actual official or main

denomination if you will within Mormonism the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints.

So soon after returning from my mission God just lit me on fire for the gospel.

I knew that more than anything else in my life all I wanted to do was share the goodness of God

that I had come to know in Christ.

And that's really how every Christian should be.

I wanted to go out and I wanted to proclaim the gospel of Jesus.

And so the same seeds that were planted in me were planted in the lives of my loved ones.

One of them was one of my best friends who is a Mormon missionary.

His name was Joseph Warren.

He accepted my challenge.

Began reading the Bible.

Also came to Saving Faith and then he and my brother and two other gentlemen who were

recently out of the Mormon Church at the time and come to faith in Jesus.

Formed Adam's Road.

And we all had a common background of music and we wanted to use that music as a

vehicle to share the gospel and to communicate what God had done in our lives.

And so we began Adam's Road in 2006.

So two of the members that originally formed Adam's Road are gone as you mentioned.

Our fourth member now is Lila LeBaron.

She's from the LeBaron community in northern Mexico which is a polygamist community and she was rescued

out of that about eight years ago and

so our purpose is that we go out and we proclaim the gospel through song through testimony we equip and

encourage the church and we spend about four months out of each year.

Traveling throughout North America.

And sharing our testimonies and giving away our music and just being an encouragement

situation is beyond the the reaches of God's grace.

Amen.

In fact I have interviewed a couple of other people on the old Iron Trip and Zion radio program

broadcasting out of Long Island New York.

On WNYG and WGBB I interviewed two people from that same

polygamist cult within Mormonism in Mexico that were

a part or are a part of the LeBaron family both a polygamist

wife and a son of a polygamist marriage.

But I'm going to play a song right now to whet the appetites of our listeners

on Adams Road.

This song is called Son of Man.

Do you have any background you'd like to give before I start playing it?

No I think the song speaks for itself.

You'll notice in the song and with all of our music we really just take the word of God and put it to music and so

you'll notice there's a lot of scriptures in there and we just want to fill it with the word of God.

Amen.

Well here it is folks.

The Son of Man by Adams Road.

Call out to me you will be saved.

That's Son of Man by Adams Road.

You'll be hearing hopefully two more songs at least from their various albums that

they have recorded over the years.

Now I am going to start taking some of the questions from our listeners that

have come in.

This first question I'm going to take happens to be from a mutual friend of

mine and yours Micah and also of your parents Latane C. Scott.

Dr. Latane has been a favorite guest of mine on my program

since its inception in 2005 and I have also arranged interviews

for her on different radio outlets before I had my own show.

She is also a former Mormon for our listeners who are unfamiliar with Latane C. Scott and she asks a great

question a question that I would love to have heard back in the 1980s before I had my first

encounter with the young Mormon missionary on Long Island, New York.

Latane asks.

What is the most common mistake that Christians make when approached by Mormon missionaries?

That is a fantastic question I'm going to address a couple.

I think this applies to Mormons in general is that we make briefings

and what I mean by that is that we interpret what they believe before we hear from them what they actually

believe.

Mormons can be anywhere on a wide spectrum even their own

system so it's very important that we ask questions and we dialogue with them to

understand what it is that they believe.

Why they believe that.

So that we can then scripturally and lovingly address those specific beliefs.

So for example it's easy to just approach a Mormon missionary and say Joseph Smith was a polygamist and he did all these

things.

And here's all these bad things about Mormonism.

And we're not really pulling out from that individual what it is they believe and why they believe.

So that's one of the biggest mistakes that we see.

Another one I would say lovingly engaging with them.

We're approaching them with the mentality of trying to win an argument rather than plant a

seed of the gospel in our hearts that we actually believe can come to fruition by the grace of

God.

So when we see Mormon missionaries we need to see them as people who need truth and need love

and need the gospel.

Not people who need to be judged self -righteously.

Not people who need to be condemned but people who need lovingly to hear the gospel of Jesus

Christ.

Amen.

And it's such a tragedy.

I don't know if you have heard this but my dear friend that I mention often on this

show Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries who has committed quite a

bit of his apologetic work over the decades to Mormonism

to confronting Mormonism and exposing Mormonism uh he had a

regular annual presence with Alpha and Omega Ministries at various major

Mormon events both in Utah and Arizona.

And he finally withdrew from having these outdoor evangelistic efforts

because unfortunately they eventually became overrun by

people who were self -righteous.

They were not churchmen they were mavericks lone wolves roaming around who weren't even

associated with any local church.

And their major mission if you will was

merely to mock, harass, and publicly condemn

Mormons as they were going in and out of these major events even burning

effigies of Joseph Smith making a mockery of

the sacred undergarments all that kind of thing.

And Dr. White did not want to be associated with that kind of juvenile

and evil actually approach to I wouldn't even call it

evangelism.

Um confronting people with error who possess error.

Because it seems that actually uh a a loving approach a compassionate

approach to reach the loss of the gospel had nothing to do with our itinerary.

If you follow what I'm saying.

Yeah yeah yeah absolutely.

I mean that that is the that is the wrong way to approach anybody who

is not saving Christ Jesus.

We are called to love and that by this will all

disciples if you have love one to another.

And so we speak the truth to love.

We can be bold about the truth but we do it with compassion and because in our hearts we lovingly

want them to know God's love in Christ.

And and look I've been on that side of the fence I I've been energized and

and and quickly my place.

But I wasn't trying to to help them come to faith in Jesus.

I was trying to prove to them how wrong they were.

I was trying to you know um win an argument rather than genuinely want them to come

to a saving faith in Jesus.

So remember the love that God had for you uh church.

When.

When when you were an unbeliever when you were an enemy to God.

When when you were a sinner in sending Christ Jesus to die for your

sin.

That is the love that's the agape love.

That we are called to love one another with.

And uh let me give our dear friend Dr. Latane C. Scott a plug for her own website.

It's latane .com l -a -t -a -y -n -e dot com and she has written

a book a classic apologetic work exposing the heresies of

Mormonism called the Mormon Mirage.

There is unfortunately another book that took that title by Hank Anagraff different book entirely

so make sure that when you order Mormon Mirage it's by Dr. Latane C. Scott and you

can find that at latane .com.

Keep listening Dr. Scott and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I also look forward to you coming back as a guest soon.

And often we have another listener who I've interviewed before

a fascinating brother in Christ who is also a former Mormon.

He is Steve Cooley and he is the associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church

in West Boylston, Massachusetts.

And so delighted to have heard and interviewed him on his own testimony of

being delivered out of the cult of Mormonism and he has a

brother who left Mormonism as well.

And I'll mention a story about that after you answer Steve's questions.

I usually don't give people the liberty of asking three questions but since Steve is a former Mormon and his

questions are so excellent I'll ask all of them he says.

I bought the book and I'm looking forward to reading it.

I have a grandson's birthday party to attend so I may miss a part of the answer to my

questions.

I will listen on the archive program later if that's the case.

This is the first question after sorting out who Jesus is according to the Bible.

Did Micah try to reconcile Latter -day Saint teaching with what he was

reading.

In other words was his first thought.

The problem must be with me aka operator error.

Yeah so my process was interesting because as I was learning truth through

the Bible I wasn't really seen to Mormonism.

I didn't believe that it was leading me outside of the church.

It wasn't really until I had an awakening and I dedicate a

chapter in my book to this awakening that took place when I read the book of Hebrews towards the end of my

mission.

And I had read the book of Hebrews several times before.

But it was like I had a veil covering my eyes and this one time it was like God just in that moment through the Holy

Spirit chose to remove that veil entirely.

And what I discovered reading Hebrews 7 through 10 was that Jesus was the fulfillment

of the old law that I was adhering to as a young Mormon man.

I was putting my faith in the temple in the high priest in the priesthood in the prophets.

And yet I read and understood through the book of Hebrews that Jesus is the law that all of

those aspects of the old law were to come.

And so I kind of tried to take the things that I was learning

and keep my Mormon faith until I came to that critical juncture.

And when I came to that juncture I realized that the Morey Foundation

built on a man -made doctrine by

Joseph Smith.

And at that point I no longer had any choice.

I had to turn and recognize that he alone was the way to salvation.

Steve Cooley's second question is while knowing the LDS church is not the only true

church and in fact is a false church as false as can be does he still cringe

when people mock Mormonism with tropes like holy underwear or the stories about polygamy?

Yeah we already addressed that earlier but if you have any further comments to make.

Yeah because it's not done in love.

And and yes I do cringe not because I personally take offense to it but because I know that other people take offense to

it.

And it's an unnecessary offense.

Building blocks for us.

So when we mock others for their faith and we mock others for their beliefs we actually remove ourselves from the

opportunity that God gives us to speak the truth and love.

And and I saw that happen as a Mormon I do not encourage it.

And and it is not the way that we need to approach people.

And so yes I understand that those things are untruthful but at the same

time knowing that those things are wrong are not going to bring somebody to salvation.

The gospel is...

Amen.

And uh Micah actually will.

Micah.

I'm sorry uh Steve Cooley is asking now the um basically the flip

side of Latane's question.

Uh Latane asked about mistakes to be avoided

when being when you are approached by a Mormon missionary.

And in a more positive sense Steve is asking how does Micah engage with

Mormon missionaries?

What specific approaches does he use?

So my approach to Mormon missionaries is is of course you know be loving be gentle be compassionate

give them food give them water but when it comes to sharing the gospel is

to don't make assumptions about what they believe and keep the

focus and the emphasis on the word of God on the gospel and on grace.

And so I really like the topics of sin and salvation sin where what is

your relationship with God and how are you separated from God and how are you then made reconciled to God right?

How are you saved?

What are the things that you must do in order to be right in in God's eyes?

And so going through those topics and ultimately drawing out that they often don't

they've done enough to appease God and so

generally there is a sense of fear as to well I don't know if I've done enough I don't know if I'm good enough

but I'm hoping presents an opportunity to

then bring up the gospel message and to share that

he did pay in full measure the penalty of our sins and that by faith in him alone we can

have the assurance of knowing that in the righteousness of Christ that's been

imputed towards us and we can in fact have eternal life and know that we have the guarantee of

that eternal life now we don't have to wonder or follow these works or laws or ordinances in order to have

that right standing with God.

And so I think that's a great thing to understand and know is to

be able to do so.

Amen.

Well thanks again Steve for listening to this program and for submitting your questions.

I want to just plug his church because it's an excellent one Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston,

Massachusetts.

The website is bbcchurch .org bbcchurch .org.

He also co -hosts a podcast No Compromise Radio that can be found at

nocompromiseradio .com.

Nocompromiseradio .com look forward to having you back on the program as well as your senior pastor

Steve.

So let's keep in touch about that.

Uh we have Grady a longtime listener of this show in Asheboro, North Carolina also a very

faithful financial supporter of this show.

Greetings brothers.

I've listened to several ministries that target Mormons for evangelism.

One thing that surprises me is that they say that most Mormons when they come to realize

that they've been lied to will turn to secularism.

Was this true for your parents?

And you.

Or did our heavenly father draw you to himself after the realization that Mormon church was not

telling the truth?

Well obviously we heard the story of our guest

Micah and his parents they pretty much fairly quickly came to embrace

Christ and his gospel.

But that is true though isn't it?

In fact it's true generally with people in false religions.

I have heard from apologists over and over again that very often when people

realize that they've been lied to they don't want to be a part of any church or formal religion.

Yeah yeah absolutely.

That's my observation in ministry is that there is an overwhelming majority of people that when they come

to recognize the fallacy of Mormonism that they are disenchanted with religion and God altogether.

Obviously that didn't happen with me.

And it didn't happen with me because it wasn't the learning of the truth

from Mormonism.

It was the truth revealed in the word of God.

But I wasn't seeking anything outside of Mormonism.

I was looking for it to be untrue.

And it wasn't the elements of Mormonism being untrue that actually drew me away from it.

It was the truth that was revealed in the word of God in the Bible alone.

Which is why our ministry emphasizes the scripture right that when we're witnessing the gospel to Mormons to

Jehovah's Witnesses right really to anybody that we need to focus on the word of God.

And we need to get them into the word of God so that all

together and go into secular humanism and all

these things that we see all too often.

Thank you Grady.

Give us your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina and you will be getting a free copy of Micah

Wilder's new book his autobiographical book Passport to Heaven the true story of a

zealous Mormon missionary who discovers the Jesus he never knew.

Compliments of Harvest House Publishing and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that book out to you at no cost.

To you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And before we go to our final break I want to play another song and do you have any

description or explanation of tongues of fire that you'd like to give before I play this song?

Uh no no just let her rip.

All right uh.

Brothers and sisters ladies and gentlemen here's tongues of fire.

By Adams Road.

Tongues

of fire.

Don't go away we'll be right back with more of Micah Wilder after these messages from our

sponsors.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

My friend Chris Arnson host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once

again for the G3 conference.

This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme

Christ is supreme over all.

I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and

singing including John MacArthur Phil Johnson Conrad M. Bayway Daryl Bernard Harrison and

Virgil Walker.

For details visit G3conference .com.

That's G3conference .com.

Chris Arnson and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G321.

This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard

Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Threatening even to divide the church and answering with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Wokeness and the Gospel Conference coming to Denton Bible Church June 11th and 12th.

Register online at wokenessandgospel .org.

We are back and Micah, we have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York CJ who

asks the question.

I have heard that the only people according to Mormon theology who will actually

be cast into eternal hell are apostate Mormons.

Mormons who have abandoned their religion.

Is that true?

Yes, that is true.

The definition of what constitutes an apostate is

and then rejected that truth.

And so somebody like my parents speak

against it

I would say that we could possibly qualify for.

Now, I remember years ago before you were even born, I'm sure.

And when a notorious murderer, Gary Gilmore

was sentenced to death in Utah He

requested to be executed by firing squad.

I'm not sure if they still permit that in Utah.

But I know that behind that idea of desiring the

firing squad.

If you were a Mormon who had backslidden, committed a murder

and wanted to be right with God before you died and left this

earth had something to do with that murder required your own blood being shed.

Am I making sense here?

I don't know if I have the whole truth to that.

Is that a part of how murderers must be made right with God in Mormon theology is by the

shedding of their own blood?

That's a very sensitive topic.

And it stems from a doctrine from Brigham Young that was called blood

atonement which is essentially that there are certain sins in which the blood of Jesus Christ is not

sufficient to cover and therefore the blood of the individual must be shed in order to cover those

sins.

I think that is very much an archaic Mormon doctrine.

I don't know or believe that really any Mormons today adhere to that particular doctrine.

Most of them would reject it or say that it's not part of their canon now.

But it certainly was something that was taught in the 1800s.

By a Mormon prophet.

But again, those types of...

And I should clarify, not good talking points with Latter -day Saints.

Whenever you bring up things like that it's immediately going to cause them to put up a wall and to put up barriers

and it's to present the gospel to them.

And so my encouragement is really not to find the obscure doctrines or history of

Mormonism but to really, you know, their daily defining

faith and then to use that as a springboard to share the gospel.

Right, like unless you're actually dialoguing with a fundamentalist Mormon who believes in polygamy to bring a

polygamy to an average Mormon who doesn't even believe or practice it today is

wasting your time, basically.

Right.

And as far as, though, the guest... I'm sorry, not the guest, the listener,.

CJ's question I'm assuming, then, if only

apostate Mormons are going to hell everybody else is going to have some kind of eternal

joy after departing this earth no matter who they are, am I correct?

That's correct.

So there are three levels of heaven in Mormonism.

And so each one, you know, in order to achieve each one there are certain requirements and prerequisites that

an individual must follow.

So essentially the lowest kingdom of heaven, which is called the telestial kingdom that's really going to be anybody outside

of faith.

I mean, it can be murderers, it can be thieves, liars, non -Christians.

People that have even totally denied Christ will receive some paradise, some redemption.

The middle kingdom would be for...

And then maybe the bad Mormons who did not, you

know, were temple worthy.

Well, it has been such a joy being on the

program with you, Micah.

I look forward to your return to the program.

Not only you yourself alone, but also, as I've said to you before I'd love to have your entire band

interviewed one by one.

Looking forward to having your parents back on the program as well.

But I want to remind our listeners If you want more information about Adams Road Ministry Go to

AdamsRoadMinistry .com AdamsRoadMinistry .com.

And if you want to find out more about Passport to Heaven The autobiography

of Micah Wilder Go to HarvestHousePublishers .com HarvestHousePublishers .com.

And I would urge you to purchase it from CVBBS .com, however Because they sponsor our program

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com.

Thank you so much, Micah.

And if you want to please hold on I'd like to give you a proper goodbye when I go off the air.

And I'd like to thank you for having me.

And I'd like to conclude the program with a song by Adams Road Ministry Immeasurable.

And I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.

You formed the earth, laid its cornerstone And you are

the depths of the oceans and seas And as high as

the heavens are above.

More than snow or as

crimson, now like water.