PSA: the Many Vital Issues (Part 1)

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Penal Substitutionary Atonement: Part 2

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Well greetings welcome to the dividing line dividing line that is delayed by one day

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It was seven minutes till three when everything stopped working on this computer and it like it went into slow motion and programs started crashing and I'm like And I just looking around looking around.

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I noticed it been feeling really warm And you know sometimes that happens, you know, you get a process hung or something like that I don't know, but finally

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I looked up 1 % batteries plugged in 1 % battery and This particular unit used to be my main unit

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But we normally do is when I get a new unit we put the one I've been using MacBook Pros run forever that's just the reality and so One goes here one goes on my desk over there and you retire the other one and there you go this one had a problem before with power and it was in the

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Jayco our RV and we were traveling and Eventually it died like it did yesterday just flatline

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Nothing happening and I'm like, oh great. Thankfully. I had a backup with me on that trip Left us sitting overnight unplugged plugged in the next morning.

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It charged up and worked fine till yesterday. I was like 18 months so, um

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Left it unplugged plugged it in this morning There it is.

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So There you go, that's so I were one day later than then we would have been and As normal I'm Getting ready for the program and something pops up on Twitter that's

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Not directly relevant to our topic today, but it is I do want to talk about before it scrolls away because There it is it has everything to do

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This book right here, which is only available since it came out Or 25 years ago now came out in 99 only available on Kindle now

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But Fascinatingly enough the movement that I document in this book for the definition of the fifth

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Merian dogma Continues alive and well with the same people to head of it a quarter century later and So 14 minutes ago

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Providence here 14 minutes ago Edward Penton interesting source of scholarly

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Information in Roman Catholicism Posted the following on X Mariologist Mark Miravalle says he believes the time is right

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For the Pope to proclaim the fifth Merian dogma because quote the transition between a third world war by piecemeal and a third world war may actively and formally

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Pronounced might be sooner than we think We are only going to get the peace listen to this

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We are only going to get the peace that was promised at Fatima Through the triumph of the

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Immaculate Heart of Mary but we're only going to get the triumph through this proclamation of the dogma and Quote now for a lot of Protestants who are not former

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Roman Catholics and for a lot of Protestants who are former a lot of this

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Fatima Immaculate Heart of Mary fifth Merian dogma stuff is rather mysterious

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And it's it's like it's it comes from another planet. We're really not sure what to think about it things like that but don't underestimate the dedication of millions of Roman Catholics to the

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Immaculate Heart of Mary Believe beyond a shadow of a doubt the visions of Fatima And the messages from Mary All That kind of stuff which by the way

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It's also relevant to the discussion that a lot of us are having of Integralism Roman Catholic integralism their form of Christian nationalism

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Believe you me No Roman Catholic Integralist system is going to be without a

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A vitally important Merian constituency which

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Interestingly enough seems to track with a

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Rise in Merian Interest amongst so -called

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Protestants and One of things we really desperately need to do in the not -too -distant future.

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Of course Have to be after this next trip In fact, that'd be a good time after this next trip, especially if we can work out a debate on the perpetual virginity of Mary For March of next year two different locations possible for that and I don't see any reason why we couldn't do one

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Merian debate in Florida and one Merian debate in Houston on the way back.

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I think that would that would be a good idea anyway we really need to be dealing with the perpetual

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Virginia Mary and the the number of Protestants who are playing around with this and need to realize

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If we're gonna you know that the main topic we're talking about today penal substitution atonement If you hold penal substitution atonement, you are in a theological minority and again, if you believe in Sola scriptura and tota scriptura, you're in a small theological minority, too

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I I hate to be the one to constantly remind you of that but we we have to be reminded of it's it's simple reality and There are

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Protestants in the past who have held to the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's not because of any compelling argumentation there

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There isn't any It is truly the power of tradition,

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I mean You know, they'll be to our Jerome You're just knocked

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Helvidius out of the park and it's been the truth ever since then that's baloney We don't even have Helvidius's writings

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We don't have what he wrote. We don't have his response to judge

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Jerome especially given the The unique character of some of his arguments that no one had used before him

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To judge Jerome as the Winner take all it's just it's absurd its face

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I don't know how anybody doesn't just crack up laughing when they say it, but That's how this type of stuff works.

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Anyway There are Protestants who believe in this and Again Luther believed in this and Zwingli believed in it again that that was not the issue of the

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Reformation That that was not part of the conflict it was

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Tradition and it was piety and it took a couple generations down the road before you started applying sola scriptura and tota scriptura to everything and Rome had not yet defined

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The later Marian dogmas that have been defined specifically the immaculate conception of Mary and the bodily assumption of Mary and now

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Miravalle at Steubenville, I'm not sure where he is. He may still be a student. I didn't look it up But he was when

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I wrote this book But again, that was quarter century ago You know the fifth

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Marian dogma Mary is co -redemptrix, co -mediatrix with Christ This stuff is

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Central to Marian piety Did I leave Don't think

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I did I think Stuff tends to migrate in here and then it just stays and eventually

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I move some stuff out of the way and it goes away, by the way, I brought the iPad in if you want to take a look at it sitting right there if you want to See if that's we can upgrade it.

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Anyway, um, I Didn't I don't think I have in here the glories of Mary Liguri's Amazingly blasphemous book, but He's a doctor the doctor the church 800 plus editions it's far more representative of Roman Catholic piety the name would like to admit

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But this is this this stuff cannot be set off to the side and and Roman Catholic integralism

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Will seek to bring Protestants into I mean remember

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Last year Calvin Robinson, remember the big brouhaha that developed about of all that When you know some guy tweets that the thief on the cross

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Was saved through the intercession of Mary and and Calvin Robinson's like yeah, it's great.

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We're all like, oh what and but that's that's the nature of this stuff and So it's it does seem to me that Miravalli and all

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Those people that have been I mean, they've turned in millions of signatures on petitions

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Requesting the definition now how many of those people sign more than once I'm sure there's been lots of petitions that have been turned in over the years, but still

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It's a it's an active movement to have this Dogma defined now, what's the chances that happening?

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You never know I mean I would put it fairly low mainly because The general consensus has been that it would be absolutely deadly to ecumenical talks between East and West but I Don't know.

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Um, I mean it's so It's light -years removed from anything that could be considered apostolic you can't not

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You know, it's it's like when you try to When you when you try to make arguments for the bodily assumption marriage in Scripture You can't do it and this is even farther down the road than that It's light -years away from anything the

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Apostles ever thought of dreamt of taught Delivered traditions over anything like that.

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It's just way up and So What's gonna come of it?

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I just thought it fascinating that this happened to you know, just pop up and I'm like, hey, there's

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Mark Miravalli once again doing this thing. So there you go

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Keep an eye on that. It's it's important. So now most of you probably saw Over the past few days a

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Explosion of Anti PSA rhetoric on social media and PSA is an acronym for Penal substitutionary atonement and I have lamented for Decades now the fact that when we talk about and I forgot to grab it.

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Oh, well, I knew I'd forget something When we talk about The atonement we end up talking about theories so Very popular in the early church was the ransom to Satan theory

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You know Jesus paid our debt to whom who collected the debt

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And then Big time really important is Irenaeus and the recapitulation theory

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That Jesus has to live the various ages of man's life and Then when he dies he redeems all those ages he's lived through and that's why

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Irenaeus thought that Jesus was more than 50 years old when he died because you have to have been to redeem people more than 50 and and then you get into the in the medieval period and there was you know

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Abelard and Anselm and and all this type of stuff and let's say you've got the governmental theory and the moral influence theory and the

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Christus Victor theory and I've lamented That's generally not the language we use in talking about You know the

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Trinity or the resurrection theories What do you mean resurrection theories? You've got the resurrection

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You've got theories from people who deny the resurrection But you don't have resurrection theories, but you have atonement theories and What that for good or bad communicates to people is

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The idea that well, I really don't know. This is it almost puts the atonement out into the realm of Certain forms of eschatology and End times speculations and stuff like that in people's minds, but beyond that What's really painfully obvious is the fact that in the preaching of the

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Evangelical Church Very rarely. Is there any instruction either in Bible studies

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Theology classes in the church, whatever on the history of The atonement and Why there's so many different viewpoints on it

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You know, I mean I did Five or no, I did 16 sermons on baptism at Apology a few years ago

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But that's not quite as unusual but when it comes to the atonement

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How how many times do you hear sermons that are literally going through the various perspectives and why we

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We have disagreements on the subject. So One of the things that I definitely saw in people responding is, you know, people can have a solid

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Understanding they they they recognize no, wait a minute Our hymnology is filled with PSA Before the throne of God above is a is a

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PSA Anthem My name was graven on his hands

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What's that even talking about? It's Personal atonement. It's giving of life.

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It's it's PSA. So as As popular as it is, it's almost due to the fact that it is popular that a lot of people

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When they see a denial of it, the only thing they can do is go. Well, that's stupid Saying that's stupid doesn't prove that it actually is stupid.

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So it's not an argument. It's just How we react to something we've never even

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Not only never even heard of before But we're not sure how to answer because we haven't heard of it before and so it's natural human response to Respond like that.

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So I saw a lot of that and Josh bars on put out a

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Josh has been making a name for himself on Twitter by Doing these threads, you know, he did a big huge thread on John MacArthur last month and Stuff like that and Bible translation stuff is really where he started this translation.

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This is its history. So on so forth So he did one on on PSA as well it's very useful, but the topic is extremely complicated and Very often requires

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Working through church history and a lot of more

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Fundamental foundational issues and So I Can't even cover all of that In one program or even a couple programs.

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Honestly, it would take a it would take me away from any type of preparation for the

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Dale Tuggy debate coming up and Stuff like that next month as I'm traveling back east

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So I can't do that right now But it is fascinating to note that what you have right now is a confluence of Very different theological perspectives all coming together to say the same thing and that is

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PSA is false. It's human tradition. It's absurd it's it violates the Trinity all the all the rest is kind of and What you get is you you get the what's that guy's name down in Austin?

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We we did something where You know, I was could be traveling through and we offered to debate and of course he wouldn't and you know, it's this ultra left -wing

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Church in Austin everything in Austin's ultra left -wing But you know anti PSA pro

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LGBTQ plus all that all that kind of deconstructed Progressivist drivel that you get and this guy's a former

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Dallas grads. That was one of the things that was interesting about him So you got those types of folks?

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chiming in about how bad PSA is and They're being joined by Eastern Orthodox So the

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Orthodox Eastern Orthodox They'll always say the same thing that their arguments are

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Necessarily limited by the fact That Eastern Orthodox theology at least as it has officially been defined as far as you can define anything officially within Eastern Orthodoxy the structure that exists is the traditions that existed in the 7th 8th 9th century, it's really 8th 9th 10th century and They really can't break out of that without ceasing to being

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Eastern Orthodox and so there is there was in the

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East at that point in time a A strong diminishment of Paul's theology of sin depravity fallenness

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And and hence the the concept of grace

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Efficacious grace that is so central to PSA Had been diminished within Eastern Orthodox and so Their primary arguments are you have to be an

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Aryan you have to be in a story and you have to be they it's all Christological stuff and we'll read some of their comments here in a second and Most evangelicals are like evangelicals like what?

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What Nestor Nestor Nestor who? I didn't know who Nestorius was or any of the arguments about whether Nestorius actually believe what

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Nestorianism is credited with and all this kind of stuff so it doesn't get anywhere, but That's the kind of stuff.

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That's what's going on and Then you've got just every guy who has 147 followers, you know

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Crawls out from underneath the rock and Has his own unique spin on things I mean, I've seen

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I've I've seen some stuff and I've just read read what people were saying. I was like What?

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It doesn't represent any historical position at all and They're just they just do their thing.

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So you've got those types of folks too. So it's been raging for a couple days and so I wanted to look at some of it and Respond to some of the stuff that's been said

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So Here here is an Eastern Orthodox Assertion, okay, and I'm not gonna use

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Jay Dyer anymore. He's that guy is just such a I Feel sorry for the

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Orthodox to be stuck with someone quite that unhinged And immature just simply childish.

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It's the only way to describe it. He's very very childish individual And only getting more childish.

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So I'm like he's like like he's regressing if that's possible to do I guess it is but a

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Fellow by the name of Ronald's Donald's Okay, now this this is not a this is not a big account only 122 followers and normally

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I wouldn't Refer to someone like this, but it it does do a good job in sort of summarizing

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What you're likely to hear from this type of stuff he had made a statement

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Well Rod Dreher well

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You know, you know how it is on X someone respond to someone to respond to something a bit so Matt Kennedy on August 10th

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Had posted Penal substitutionary atonement is the beating heart of the gospel.

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I Would agree Rod Dreher the rather well -known

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Rod Dreher Responded not so says

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Eastern Christianity. I Responded to Rod Dreher.

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Yes a major problem for the East traditions of men and this fellow responded that there were 21

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Responses to that particular statement. I'm sure I we could follow any one of them

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Down a Complete rabbit trail, but the guy says if we're talking about Jesus Christ as the true man

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From whom the tradition comes and absolutely the Eastern Orthodox faith is perfect and without error. Well that has to be the foundational assumption for all of Eastern Orthodoxy and that is that the traditions which had become prevalent in a particular part of The former

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Roman Empire that is in the East Go back to the Apostles now we know that with one of the most central elements of Eastern Orthodoxy iconography icon of Julia The claim of the second

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Nicene Councils, this is apostolic I Know there are even more books coming out.

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But man the ones that have come out recently the only Proper term

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I can use for them is desperate Desperation to read into anything in the early church some concept of icon of Julia and Then to read the plain statements of people saying no, no, no, no, no, we would never do that to read them out of the record as as irrelevant, so That's just a good example of where someone from the

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Eastern Orthodox perspective They've been told this is apostolic. Okay, so it's apostolic.

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I can't prove it in fact, the evidence is completely against it, but Hey We're gonna we are going to believe that This is what was taught by the

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Apostolic Church and this goes back to the Apostles That's what he's saying there.

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He says however penal substitution is a man -made tradition I've seen

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I've even read your book in the Trinity. So I expect a deeper understanding from you the Godhead is undivided and inseparable father son and Holy Spirit are one in essence and will

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To say it the father punished the son is to divide the Godhead which is contrary description

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The father does not act against the son, but rather in perfect unity with him Christ sacrifices voluntary and eternal love not punishment inflicted by one person the

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Trinity on another I hope That all of you can hear this man has no idea what penal substitution atonement is

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He's just contradicted it. I Have corrected that misapprehension because you know who says exactly what he just said the

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Muslims I Have to defend the voluntary self giving of the

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Sun against misunderstandings By Muslims all the time in debates

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Lost track of how many times in Ireland and England and South Africa and Australia United States where Muslims have expressed this

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I Can't believe you Christians believe that the father was attacking the

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Sun or has put this the father acts against the Sun and and This type of thing and I'm and I'm like, no you don't understand what we're saying

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We're saying that this was the the will of the triune

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God in eternity past This the the Sun gives his life voluntarily in obedience to the father and in perfect harmony and unity with the father for the salvation of Christ's people

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But it is an act of triune love But especially in the

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Muslim context This is vitally important. And I don't know how these other folks even

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Begin to do Islamic apologetics in light of the stuff they say But this is vitally important.

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I have said this is sermons in books for decades If when you look at the cross of Christ If all you see is the love of God, you're not seeing the whole picture

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You must see the wrath of God against sin Holy and pure wrath against sin for you to see the fullness of the love of God in the cross of Christ And you see there's where the problem lies

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Years ago many years ago, it's Funny how memory works and then stops working.

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Um, I remember what room I was in. I Remember it was a modular building

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There are no modular buildings in the campus of Grand Canyon University We're gonna share that there are no there are no single level buildings left on the campus of Grand Canyon University anymore

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Every single level building that I studied in when I was a student at Grand Canyon has been replaced by Multi -story buildings anyway

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Is in a modular building is Fuller Seminary was using it It's probably that one of the church history classes

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We were talking about CH Dodd, okay, CH Dodd British theologian

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End of the 1800s into the beginning of the 1900s and Dodd Very well known and very influential

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Dodd was one of the primary reasons why In British theology and British translations of the

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Bible You don't have the word propitiation. You have the term expiation propitiation means a wrath a sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God Expiation is a sacrifice that simply

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Restores relationship with God. There's no there's nothing in expiation That makes specific reference to God's wrath or as the

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British like to say wrath the wrath of God So he detested the idea of a wrathful

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God and That impulse

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Was Amplified after World War two after the

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Holocaust You get Major impact on New Testament theology, especially in Europe Germany, especially of course and the idea of a wrathful

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God Becomes extremely unpopular If you want to publish if you want to get ahead you can't go there and so The Penal part of penal substitution atonement

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Assumes a bunch of stuff that's just simply no longer a part of the theology of many traditions movements and churches

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Because it is so completely opposed to what mankind wants to hear

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We don't want to hear about the the wrath of God. We don't want to hear about his law So in a day, it's it and look

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Peel substitution atonement is reformed on It's a reformed doctor

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The Armenians the the original Armenians did not believe in PSA. There's plenty of Armenians who believe it today

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They just don't realize that that's a reformed doctrine and they don't realize that believing in it. They are making themselves completely incoherent

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I've ran into a bunch of them online Just last night the reformed were the ones who codified this over against the remonstrance the beginning of the

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Armenians synergistic the synergistic element of the Reformation and Against Rome Because this is where Whether you all like it or not.

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The reality is that synergistic Protestantism agrees with Rome on key fundamental issues

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Against the Reformers against Luther Luther Punish the will Erasmus you put your finger on The key the the hinge upon which it all turns deadness of man and sin

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Resultant necessity of the electing grace of God so People don't know this and so Armenians Will the original

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Armenians after Arminius anyways Arminius was much more reformed But couldn't stay that way

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Of his movement could not stay that way it's swung away from that stuff really fast historically speaking and They had they recognized that penal substitutionary atonement where the wrath of God against a sinner is

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Born by his substitute Christ in his place

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The only way for that to be a case is if there's a specific people a

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Specific people Who are unite with Christ in his death the idea which has become so popular since then of?

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some kind of hypothetical Non -propitiatory sacrifice because that's what

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That's what modern Armenian synergists believe They will say on the one hand

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Christ dies in behalf of all of humanity and all we have to do is accept the free gift but that changes the nature of Christ death it's it's no longer propitiatory in itself

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It can only become propitiatory with the addition of the act of the human will to Enable it so so what happens in time determines the nature of what the sacrifice was oh no, it's just the application, but but that's the point a

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Propitiatory sacrifice removes the wrath of God So the

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Armenian who tries to hold a PSA is saying it doesn't remove the wrath of God until Man does

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XYZ now you say all but you're doing the same thing because you think that we're under the wrath of God until until regeneration but the point is from the

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Reformed understanding and I think the biblical understanding The elect are united with Christ in his death now

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God regenerates them at a point in time is in their lives in accordance with his will and his purpose but the certainty of Their regeneration salvation is right there in front of us

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It's it's certain but the Armenians saying no, it's not certain. It's Provisional It's put out there

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But it's up up to us. And of course this this then raises all the questions about you know, does

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God know You know what's gonna happen here and all the rest that kind of stuff. And what about you know

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And turn the air down if you don't mind, um what about free will and commands actions determined What's the nature of God's knowledge of future events and Mullen ism and all the rest that kind of wacky stuff comes in but the point is

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PSA requires atonement to be propitiatory and Propitiation means it has to be personal which means the object of the propitiation has to be known to God So if I'm to be united with Christ In the effect of his sacrifice

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Then there's there's a theology. It has to exist behind that God can't be running around just trying to react a man and make things work out in the end

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That doesn't that doesn't work. So in American evangelicalism the

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Armenians Picked up on PSA and they like the idea of Christ died for you

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Not as you know, okay fundamentalists like the wrath part

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Hellfire and brimstone that that fits I suppose even though I would argue that in Unhealthy fundamentalism the actual role of the law as a revealer of God's holiness

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Oh Man, I you know, I was raised in it. So I I know there's a lot of law

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But it's not based upon actually studying the law It's what's popular at your point in time.

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Okay, and So, you know I've told the story of Hearing an entire sermon once my mom took me to somebody else's church one time before we moved and And Yeah, I Need need you to stop reading.

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Whatever is your reading out there and tune back into what we're going on here. Thank you. I Have to set up for what?

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Yeah, okay. Anyway, I was just trying to get his attention. She took me to a sermon And the entire sermon was on the evil of pantsuits

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Now I suppose you could I'm sure he did I'm sure the guy did quote

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From the Mosaic law that you're not to wear the clothing of the other gender

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I'm sure I'm sure he went there But it's extremely selective

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Okay in the fundamentalist perspective. So there isn't a

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Sound Theonomic understanding of law in in Fundamentalism and of course in the broader spectrum of American evangelicalism

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There is just massive antinomianism There is a there's a massive the law was just back then irrelevant now

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Old Testament sort of only Semi -canonical, you know, the the cool stories are great, but you know really can't learn much more than that that kind of stuff and So The penal aspect where the holiness of God is

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It in is in view It just isn't a part of much of that. So Our minions don't have that they came up with the governmental theory of atonement moral influence theory

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Christus Victor stuff. There's there's all these other quote -unquote theories Which in most instances have an element of truth to them

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Christus Victor Christ is Christ is victorious Over his enemies.

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Well, that's yeah Amen But that's certainly not all that's just a that's just a part and You know moral influence we

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Look at look at the the fantastic moral influence that the self -giving of Christ has had in The history of mankind in comparison to any other religious leader any other religious?

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Oh just okay That's true But it doesn't even get close

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To what the Apostles said the purpose of the atonement was or the mechanism of the atonement or anything else

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So All these theories normally if you if you give them an optimistic reading

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Will have an element of truth to them. You can go I agree with that. I agree with that But that doesn't get anywhere close

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To fulfilling the biblical teaching on what the nature of the atonement was and why it was necessary and so Modern evangelicals who are

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Arminians just don't know their history and So they don't know that by holding the PSA. They're literally holding to a belief

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That and I said to some people they didn't understand why I was saying this when you combine peel substitution atonement with A synergistic

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Non election based concept What is it led to in many

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Arminian? denominations over the years Universalism Why because Christ dies for everyone?

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Christ loves everyone equally Christ death provides forgiveness of sins and Therefore everyone's gonna get saved and you may have not run into a universalist recently, but they're all over the place and there are biblically literate universalists

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There are a number of texts of Scripture I've said many times the only two ways to interpret this particular text of Scripture not not in the whole testimony of the

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Word of God things like But the only way to do so is either in The Reformed understanding because we're talking about the elect or the universalist understand

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There isn't any way for the synergistic It's up to you freewill folks to even get in the conversation on numerous texts

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It's either the Calvinists or it's universalists. It's the only options. Yeah, and so most of us have never had those conversations and would struggle greatly in them and a lot of it again goes back to nature the atonement and the foundational doctrines that come to that so if you don't have a if you don't don't believe in soul scripture and total scripture and of course

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Eastern Orthodoxy Rejects these things Roman Catholicism rejects these things and that's why many of their objections are

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Based upon theological developments from hundreds and hundreds of years after the times apostles. They're not really biblical objections at all

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And and in fact when they do go to the scriptures It's very obvious that they are importing all sorts of external authorities and external traditions and things like that into their their conversation

45:43

That happens just all the time but within quote -unquote Protestantism, whatever that exactly is

45:50

You very easily can see that While PSA is popular on a certain level within America Still an actual

46:08

Commitment to what it means as a doctrine and that is that the wrath of God Must be

46:18

Propitiated God's law cannot simply remain broken very little of modern

46:25

American evangelicalism has a sufficiently high view of God's law to even Understand why we would say that then again takes you back to the the

46:35

Muslims I did a debate in October of 2013 in Erasmus South Africa at the

46:46

Agra Bakr Siddiq mosque It was first debate we did that was actually in the mosque

46:53

I stood where the imam led the the prayers I Was staying in front of the

46:58

Qibla I was debating Shabir Ali Something I've done many many times and Ergon Cantor never did once anyway and And The whole thing was how we have peace with God and one of the key elements of my presentation was in in Islamic theology a

47:25

Law can forgive any sin But he does so arbitrarily and so I told

47:35

I told about the Hadith that the man had killed 99 people and He inquired of a priest whether his forgiveness would be accepted by Allah the priest said no

47:47

So he killed the priest nice killed a hundred people and so he asks the people of a bit of ask some other people

47:53

I there's different versions of the story in the Hadith sources, it's in both

47:59

Bukhari and Muslim And They said go to such -and -such a city

48:06

Such such a village and They will tell you what is necessary for your repentance to be accepted

48:11

But as he was on his way The time his death came because 40 days after conception

48:17

God writes upon your forehead, but they are gonna die. That's it and So he drops dead in the middle of the road

48:26

Angel comes from paradise angel comes from hell argue over his soul You'd think angels himself, but from hell would have a

48:35

Slam dunk here, but the angel from heaven says well he was going to find out about repentance.

48:42

So Allah decrees that If he is one cubit closer to the village that he was going to than the one he was coming from That he

48:55

Will go to paradise and then in some versions of story Allah causes the earth to shrink

49:01

Between where the man died and where the village was so he's one cubit closer and he goes to paradise and I told that story

49:11

Because it's a well -known story You I'm sitting here thinking about what that night was like to have

49:23

Muslims seated on the floor in front of you as Close as riches through the even through the glass and they are

49:32

I was able to communicate to them

49:37

I was able to look them in the eye and Talk to them about what holiness is and sin and forgiveness and you know your own heart and all the stuff you've done can't take away that sin and it was it was truly amazing and I could tell they knew that story and That that story is so empty

50:04

There were a hundred people whose lives were taken by this man. He goes to paradise and They had to know in their own thinking not everybody he killed went to paradise.

50:16

There was no You can call Allah holy all you want but if you can end up in his presence simply based upon that You know and then

50:34

I was able to go but that's That's not how it works the the message of the

50:40

Christian faith is if You're gonna stand in the presence of a holy God. You have to be clothed in the righteousness of someone else and That's where I really started preaching to them.

50:49

You know your own heart You can't stand before God and pretend the purity of your intentions

50:57

You can't do it. You know, you know the the anger you had toward your fellow man this very day

51:03

I'm looking right at this guy They're not used to that that's that's as I how it normally goes and I said you need to have the righteousness of someone else and that righteousness must must

51:16

Answer to God's holiness, and I think it's one of the major major Drive a truck through it holes in Islamic theology so teary ology and specific but There are a lot of people within quote -unquote evangelicalism

51:40

That basically do the same thing They've taken the Muslim perspective in fact my mother had this because I'm not even good

51:48

Be able to I'm gonna have to come back to this Because there's so many

51:59

See see atonement Brings together so many basic foundational issues.

52:06

I think that's why people struggle with it Because they don't if they if they're missing something here They're missing up there you get up here and the whole thing is sort of wobbly wobbly.

52:16

I think that's what goes on But let me go back and see if I can find this here

52:28

All bookmarks there it is. Okay. I'm not gonna bother to put it on screen. Just just do the audio

52:36

This is from different church So This is impastor

52:47

Hannah Siegmund I'm assuming Mr. Siegmund is talking with her.

52:53

I could be wrong. Don't know can't tell but I just get that Feeling and of course, there's no pulpits and like that nice lighting.

53:01

We're sitting on bar stools in our jeans and stuff like that But listen, this is

53:11

Like less than two minutes so this quote -unquote pastor chick

53:19

Is Asked why did Jesus have to die? now by the way

53:26

What I should should have done what I should go do before the next program is

53:33

Go queue up when? Yasir Qadhi, dr. Yasir Qadhi asked me that question at His mosque in Memphis a number of years ago.

53:46

Why did a part of God have to die and let me explain to his gathered people the necessity of the death of Christ The sad thing is, you know, the

53:59

Muslims should get a united response on that But they don't

54:04

Roman Catholics gonna answer differently Eastern Orthodox gonna answer differently and Today, you've got stuff like this.

54:11

So you're ready with this. I hopefully got it all set back up here. Let's let's listen to this Speaking of Christian hardcore, why did

54:20

Jesus have to die? These questions are gonna get me in so much trouble on the internet y 'all short answer

54:27

He didn't Have to die that listen, okay, I don't know how

54:33

I can distill this into like something short and reasonable But the normal evangelical reason for why

54:40

Jesus had to die is that we were all horrible sinners and God can't look at us Jesus had to take the punishment for our sin what we deserved so that we could then have this relationship with God That is called substitute penal substitutionary atonement

54:55

And It's very pleasant Evangelicalism likes to die on this hill

55:00

Literally, it is their Golgotha like this is how it has been.

55:05

This is how it always has been This is what everyone believes and it's simply not true there are many other atonement theories and if you study any part of church history outside of Evangelicalism in the

55:17

United States, you will find them for example in Orthodox Eastern Orthodox churches

55:22

Jesus Saves us by coming not by dying like the fact that Jesus is here being born

55:30

It's showing us how to live in right relationship with God how to live in right relationship with each other

55:35

So on the one hand, I don't think Jesus actually had to die on the other hand. He was disrupting Politically and religiously things that were very important to people that they

55:45

I don't know how very dear like certain Groups in our country are holding very dear right now, and they tend to get a little murdery

55:53

When that happens, and so I do not think it I don't think it was avoidable Like what

55:59

Jesus was disrupting was going to get him killed Okay now it's interesting that she brought the

56:11

Orthodox in and Wasn't completely off on that In orthodoxy there is a

56:23

Super emphasis on Incarnation resulting in a diminishment of emphasis upon self -giving crucifixion atonement

56:37

If the West is at all uneven one direction they're uneven the other

56:44

By a great deal In general, I mean there are exceptions

56:50

I have a friend who frequently produces really cool

56:56

Accurate theological statements from Eastern Orthodox folks. So there are exceptions to the rule But in general the emphasis in orthodoxy is on incarnation

57:07

But even the presentation on What PSA is

57:15

Hopefully what you heard was there was there was no emphasis at all on The holiness of God Punishment of the necessary punishments and we're just all so terrible horrible.

57:28

Well, yeah, I Don't I don't get the feeling that she has much of a

57:37

Biblical concept of Man's deadness and sin or the holiness of God.

57:45

I think you're getting a whole lot more of the Jesus is my boyfriend girlfriend stuff coming from these guys than anything else and But that's that's what you get.

57:56

That's what you hear Coming from Sort of progressivist

58:05

Deconstructed Protestantism in the United States and So where'd that thing go

58:19

Anyway, so we've already covered a bunch of stuff here and really haven't gotten into the heart of the issue. Okay So I do want to I Do want to finish up Next time around.

58:32

Well, let's try to be consistent here and Continue this into the next program What? Oh, that is tomorrow, isn't it?

58:40

Yeah Forgot about that. So tomorrow we will can continue

58:47

And I've got an 11 o 'clock appointment. So and we're gonna have to do three again. I Know you're all going.

58:53

No, it's six Still amazes me that the only people in the

59:00

United States know the difference between standard time and daylight time are the only people United States they don't observe it. We have to know these things.

59:07

Anyways, I want to finish up Ronald Donald's statement and Really respond to it

59:15

Because you know, the Godhead is undivided inseparable father -son Holy Spirit all one in essence and will okay

59:21

Does that mean the father became incarnate? That mean we are the son.

59:27

Did the Holy Spirit become incarnate? Does that mean the father and the

59:33

Spirit send the son see once once you start doing this Um I'm gonna take simplicity to the point of absurdity.

59:42

You no longer could you no longer have three divine persons? You no longer have the drama of redemption You no longer have the son being sent by the father no longer have the father and the son saying the spirit

59:52

You don't have the spirit testifying things the son you the divine persons take different roles and You cannot make sense out of the

01:00:02

New Testament When you do this kind of stuff And so to say the father punished the son is to divide the

01:00:09

Godhead the son voluntarily Took that role to be the substitute for his people

01:00:20

Okay, the father didn't do that. The spirit didn't do that. The son did that that's what the New Testament teaches and You cannot make heads or tails out of the

01:00:29

New Testament If you do not allow those Distinctions which are right there in the text. Those are apostolic distinctions.

01:00:35

You got to be able to go there So I want to finish this point of that There were a couple other Orthodox ones and then there were some

01:00:42

Protestant ones Which were just sort of saying well, but I don't understand, you know

01:00:48

I mean Jesus isn't burning in hell and so he didn't really take the whole punishment which shows a misunderstanding of of Duration and kind versus necessity there was a guy that posted something like that I want to watch how to get that to and we should have a little more time since I won't be talking about Mary well,

01:01:09

I can't promise that since I wasn't planning on talking about Mary until 14 minutes

01:01:16

Before that thing showed up anyhow and then we've got some Other stuff that might pop up there too, but anyways, so we will just press on with this that'll be an introduction to To hopefully hopefully what we can finish tomorrow and when

01:01:35

I say finish You're probably already seeing and this is a broad topic.

01:01:40

There is a lot that comes into this and and that's why People struggle with it.

01:01:46

So yeah, that's that's what we'll do So Okay That will do it for today.

01:01:55

I'm just gonna I'm let's just help the computer keep shredding overnight Everything's all set up queued up.

01:02:02

Hey, this this unit's done a great job for us. It's it's been through a lot It can get this one can get a little moody

01:02:13

This is this our second one there most the newest one is Just fine so far

01:02:20

Knock on wood cross your fingers, whatever other things you want to do. So yeah, okay

01:02:27

Okay. Alright. Thanks for watching the program today. We'll be back at you tomorrow. Same time the same channel