May 4, 2026 Show with Rich Jensen, Anthony Uvenio, & Chris MacDowell on “30 Years of Proclaiming the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace on Long Island, NY”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you a very happy Monday on this fourth day of May, 2026.

May the fourth be with you. And I am thrilled to have three very dear friends on the program today to celebrate a very important anniversary of proclaiming the doctrines of sovereign grace on Long Island, the 30th anniversary, in fact, of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

And I have joining me today the three pastors of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, Pastor Rich Jensen, Pastor Christopher McDowell, and Pastor Anthony Eugenio.

And first of all, let me greet them one by one. Rich Jensen, it's a joy to have you back on the program.

Good afternoon. Always a pleasure to see you and be with you, Chris. And Pastor Chris McDowell, it's great to have you also joining me today.

Are you there, Chris? And Chris is frozen. Okay, and Pastor Anthony, are you there?

And Pastor Anthony is frozen. Can you guys hear me? Yes, I'm here. Okay. I thought you were frozen, actually.

Yeah. Yeah, I thought he was frozen. Well, I am Calvinist. Thank you for having me on,

I appreciate it. It's in the frozen chosen. Yes. Well, first of all,

Pastor Rich Jensen, tell us something about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

I was celebrating 30 years, and that's truly something.

I can honestly say that as I look back and see that it was 30 years ago that we planted this church, it's like a breath, a blink of an eye.

It's gone that quickly. Yes, and you are a confessional

Reform Baptist Church holding to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, correct?

That is correct. And I have known you even before you were pastoring and even before you planted

Hope Reform Baptist Church. In fact, I don't know if you remember, I was at your ordination examination, and I remember full well, my dispensationalist friend,

Ron Glass, giving you a hard time about your post -millennial position. But I can remember also you approaching

Conrad M. Bayway at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, where he was speaking for the first time in the

United States, his first American speaking engagement. And I remember you asking him to meet with you because you were just in the planning stages,

I believe, of Hope Reform Baptist Church. Tell us about how that even came about. Well, we had had a relationship with Grace Reform Baptist Church, where Conrad was speaking.

And I was invited by Mike Kadosh to bring the youth down. And it just so happened to coincide with me leaving the ministry that I was part of and the thoughts of planting a church.

And so when Mike introduced me to Conrad, we had a little chat, and we did meet with him later on in that weekend and discuss some of the pitfalls and some of the things we should look for as we plant a church.

And you're pretty much a rare church on Long Island. And from what

I understand, and I could be forgetting somebody, you're only one of two confessionally

Reformed Baptist churches on Long Island, am I right? As far as I know. I think there are some other churches that are considering the 1689 becoming confessional, but right now it's only us and Grace Reform Baptist, I think, that actually use the 1689 as our confession.

Yes, and I do know that a church in Woodhaven, New York, which is not exactly on Long Island, Nassau or Suffolk County, but they have not long ago,

I believe, embraced the 1689 as well, Grace Baptist Church. Yeah, they would be in Queens.

That's almost like another country. Right, even though technically Queens is on Long Island.

You don't cross a bridge to get there. And Chris McDowell, you were the second pastor to be appointed at Hope Reformed Baptist Church.

Tell us about when you started going there and how you became aware of the church and so on. We were actually on a theological journey, my wife and I.

And so we were looking for a church that was more on the same page as us in terms of vision for how the family should function in the church and minister and be ministered to.

And we were also, we'd come to the doctrines of grace and we were right on the pusp of full reform theology and coming to Hope helped to seal that and just get us firmly grounded.

So that was back in 2013 that we first arrived at Hope in the fall.

And it's just been a blessing ever since. Then how long after that did you become appointed as a pastor there?

A couple of months, I think it was. No. No. No. No. I hope they got to that little joke.

If not, it'll only be. We lost Rich right in the middle of a joke there.

For some reason, we're having difficulties today with the live streaming.

Okay. I don't know why. I see you freeze it sometimes, but I can hear you.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. So tell us about, again, since you were cut off there, really, how long was it before you became pastor?

2019, I was installed as an elder. So that was six years. We got there about, yeah, about six years.

2013, we started attending. We became members probably in 2014.

And then not long after that, Pastor Jensen started a mentoring group for men who were interested in teaching and preaching and possibly ministry in the future.

And so that's, we talked about mentoring the last time we were on the show. And that's what actually introduced me to the idea of possibly becoming an office bearer and actually teaching and preaching.

It wasn't something I had officially planned on and saw that I had some ability in it and was able to grow in that.

And that was all from Pastor Jensen starting that group. So in 2018,

I was installed as a deacon. And then the following year, they called me to the eldership.

And Anthony Uvinio, I'd known you years before you even became a member of Hope Reformed Baptist Church.

And I don't believe that you had committed to the doctrines of grace when I first became aware of you.

Tell us about your journey and how you eventually wound up as one of the elders. Yeah, so I came to faith in a kind of charismatic congregation and attended that church for 11 years.

And probably in the second or third year, I came to an understanding of Calvinism, embraced it, and was caged stage for a little while.

But they let me through it, they really did. And I'm grateful to them because they treat me with grace.

But as things progressed and I grew in those doctrines more and more, I wanted to be in a place that we could actually talk about election and predestination and those type of things.

So providentially, we were gonna homeschool my daughter and I heard a podcast about classical

Christian schooling. So I looked it up online and it was only two classical Christian schools on Long Island.

The first one I called was closed. And the second one I called was Grace Christian Academy where Pastor Rich Jensen happened to be the headmaster.

At the same point in time, good friends of my wife were attending Hope Reformed Baptist Church and praying that we would eventually go there.

So as we send our daughter to the school and Pastor Jensen graciously agreed to pick her up and drop her off almost every day, it was amazing to me.

I became familiar with Pastor Jensen. I started attending the men's breakfasts and then it started to be clear to me that it was time to leave the other church and go to Hope.

And I started attending there in 2015 and then it was 2020 that I was installed as an elder at the church and just have been blessed by Pastor Jensen and Pastor Chris and just the whole congregation.

It was a completely different paradigm than what I was used to. And Pastor Rich Jensen, I know that you, as I even hinted at before, having attended your ordination exam, you were a post -millennialist before you even founded

Hope Reformed Baptist Church. And you are amongst a very small minority of post -millennialists in the

Reformed Baptist movement. How easy or difficult is that for you to be such a tiny minority?

Well, firstly, being Reformed puts us already in a minority. That's right.

I haven't found any issues with that at all. In fact, most of the pastors that I have fellowshiped with are amillennial and it's never been an issue.

We have some good spirited discussions from time to time. But that only helps you to stand firmer in your convictions and to study, make sure that you have all your ducks in a row.

So, but I would say that I think from when I first came to post -millennialism and to where I see it now, there's a lot more people who are embracing post -millennialism.

Tell us about why the doctrines of sovereign grace are so important.

Why, even though you do have biblical fellowship at certain levels with not only pastors, but congregations that are not committed to these five points of Calvinism, you still nonetheless hold these teachings as very, very important.

And you believe that they do have a tremendous impact on every area of the

Christian life. Not only what we believe, but how we worship, how we evangelize, how we react to the different problems and sins of this world.

Tell us more about why the Reformed, in your name, Hope Reformed Baptist, is so important.

Well, yeah, because it establishes what your worldview is.

To have a truly biblical worldview, you have to understand the sovereignty of God, the security of your salvation.

You know, the total depravity of your soul. Why does God have to elect you?

Why does he have to choose you? Why can't you choose yourself? And you start laying it all out.

And it's only the Reformed Calvinistic understanding that gives you that whole worldview.

And that affects the way you worship, even. So it affects every aspect of your life, how you live your life, how you view.

How do you view tragedy? How do you view suffering? How do you view good times? How do you view money?

How about education? How about your home? That's all affected by your worldview. And right at the core of that is the doctrines of grace.

And Pastor Chris McDowell, you have already said that you are on a theological journey that eventually, by God's sovereign providence, landed you firmly in the

Reformed Baptist camp and eventually an elder of a Reformed Baptist church.

How has that impacted your own life, how you evangelize, how you teach the scriptures and so on?

Yeah, I mean, the church I was part of previously, where I actually came to the doctrines of grace,

I came through a discipleship group by the associate pastor. And so that was sort of the first theological domino to fall,

I guess to say. I started reexamining things that I had just grown up with, traditions

I had been handed that I took for granted as just, it's just true, and you don't need to examine it too hard.

And so coming to that understanding helped me to look with fresh eyes at the scriptures.

Also, I had been previously very involved in the youth ministry, and I came to have a different understanding of that for a number of reasons.

But I saw a tendency, even though the church I was part of was a good church, great people, they held the gospel out, they understood that to be central.

It was rather eclectic though. It was non -denominational, and you had everywhere from people who had a slightly charismatic bent to it to even somewhat fully reformed, all came together and worship.

But I found at times with how we approached the youth, where we would deny, you know, the secret friendly consumerist mindset.

And yet I felt we were doing that with our upcoming generation, constantly separating them out, constantly trying to put things on their level and trying to reach them and make the faith and the scripture as fun, you know, as possible.

And so we would give them their own music and their own games and all the snacks and all this stuff in a watered down version, not getting into some of the deeper things because it was sort of controversial.

You couldn't teach the whole council of God because you didn't know where everyone was. I found that to be problematic because you couldn't get to the meat and the substance of things.

And also it's one of those things where I feel like we're not fully trusting God in his sovereignty and the fact that it's the

Holy Spirit that has to regenerate that believer to make them a believer.

But if we're thinking that, well, it's somewhat dependent on us and how well we can approach them with it,

I think it compromises the message at times. And so having an understanding of the sovereignty of God in all things, including salvation, but as Pastor Jensen said, sufferings, you know, you have a sort of perspective as well as God angry at me, well, if I had done things differently, whatever, and there's just, it opens up a can of worms with so many theological problems and doubting on part of the believer if they're not grounded in the truth of God's word and his sovereignty.

And Pastor Anthony, you mean, you know, you not only were not fully reformed before coming to Hope Reformed Baptist Church and your understanding of theology, but you were also at one point, and perhaps still are, heavily involved in apologetics.

How has coming to fully embrace the Reformed faith impacted the apologetic realm?

Yeah, great question. So obviously I was coming in from an evidentialist point of view and seeking to give unbelievers more evidence for the existence of God, as if God didn't give them enough evidence already.

So I had embraced the doctrine of total depravity. And in listening to so many different presuppositionalists online and Pastor Jensen and Pastor Chris, it was just the application of total depravity to the person's mind, to recognize that there's no more evidence that we're gonna give them that God hasn't given them already that's gonna persuade them.

So our job is not necessarily, it's not that we shy away from the evidence, but we're speaking to dead men.

So our job is to shut the mouth of the unbeliever, to proclaim the gospel and pray that the

Spirit would give them eyes to see and ears to hear. The deadness of man in sin and his depravity is the key to the whole realm of apologetics.

You're not gonna convince somebody that God exists because they know God exists already. That's what the scripture says.

So that was a big shift in my understanding. And then to start listening to guys like Greg Bonson and now

Eli Ayala, who's also moved off of Long Island, but is a great presuppositionalist apologist, to see it from that perspective and to see the sovereignty of God in all things, in opening the eyes of the blind, it was just a paradigm shift for me and I'll never go back.

And obviously, the big thing that I see a lot of churches in evangelical

America talking about is the power of man, how man is powerful, how he can do this, how he can do that.

Whereas when I read the scriptures, all I'm hearing about is what man cannot do. Man cannot bear good fruit, man cannot come to Jesus, man cannot confess

Jesus as Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. So I keep hearing about this big human being that's able to do all these things.

And when I read the scripture, I see the exact opposite. The big one in this conversation is

God. And I looked up the word God and try, and try to see those two words in the same sentence, and God never tries at anything.

The only thing he tries is men's hearts, right? So God, you know what God does? Whatever he pleases in the heavens and the earth and beneath the earth, and none can stay his hand or say, what have you done?

The scripture presents a very big sovereign God and a very small, impotent man.

And it's our job to proclaim the gospel, the good news, that God can save you if you turn to him.

So seeing the sovereignty of God and the deadness of man and sin and his weakness and inability was just one of the things that sets us apart from all of the other churches that don't teach that.

Yeah, that concept of God trying to do things comes up a lot in social media when you are grappling with anti -Calvinists.

And it's amazing how they really, it doesn't seem that they have thought through that whole concept.

And I had to tell one of these anti -Calvinist individuals in social media, so your

God fails more often than he succeeds in accomplishing his will.

Because according to you, he is trying over and over again, constantly trying every day, every moment of the day to stop evil from happening, but he's failing.

Isn't that a monstrous diminishment of who

God is? And I'll let Pastor Rich Jensen pick up from there. Isn't that, it's really making

God less of a God than the false gods of the

Romans, Greeks, and the Nordics. Am I right? Yeah, you're absolutely right.

As soon as you start putting the onus on man, you're taking it away from God.

And that's exactly what we see. In fact, one of the, providentially, this has come up right at this point.

One of the reasons that we formed Hope Reformed Baptist Church and why we planted it was as I looked around,

I grew up in evangelical churches. And as I looked around, the message was doom and gloom.

Now remember, I mean, I'm 80 years old. I grew up, I'm a child of the 50s and the 60s.

And the main message coming out of evangelical pulpits was doom and gloom.

Pray that God's coming back, that Jesus is coming back soon because things are getting bad out here, you know?

And no sense in doing anything extra. Just save as many people as you can, you know?

And that's the way it would be presented. And then as you read the scriptures, that's not, just flip to the end.

We win, you know? And so that's how we got our name.

I said, what the world needs is hope. And in fact, we're celebrating our 30th and calling it 30 years of hope.

That's the message of scripture is hope. Yes, and one of the things that, and I say this as an amillennialist myself, but I -

We'll forgive you. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I have always, from my earliest days of salvation, had close friendships with post -millennialists.

And one of the things that amillennialists and premillennialists and pre -tribulationalists get baffled by is the post -millennial idea of eventually the earth being

Christianized and governed by biblical law and so on.

When they look at their television sets and their computer screens and their newspapers and magazines to a less degree these days, but they see how satanic, overtly satanic things are becoming in a more palpable way, in a more, it seems, increased way.

The fact that we are now in a country that marries men to men and women to women, that has legalized, at least in certain areas of this country, the sexual mutilation of children through surgical and pharmaceutical means under the guise of changing their gender.

And these things that horrify people, they can't imagine that a post -millennial hope can be true.

But what they fail to recognize, I know that post -millennials do not believe that it is just a steady, progressive, upward arrow where things never dip into the realm of darkness and just keep climbing into a higher level of holiness.

That's not what post -millennials believe, is it? No, it's not, not at all. We're called to a life of trouble.

And Jesus warned that. He said, look, don't be so quick to follow me. Count the cost.

Know what you're getting into, which flies in the face of modern evangelism. Come, you want your best life now, in that type of theology.

Christ says, come and follow me. Look, he met Paul on the road to Damascus, and what does he tell

Paul? You're in for it. You're gonna follow me, and you're gonna have a lot of trouble, no matter where you go.

So you're filled for a life of suffering. That's the evangelism. People ask me, you know, how can you read the newspaper and watch the

TV and still be post -millennial? Well, if that's all I'm reading, I'm not gonna be post -millennial.

I'm gonna be depressed. You know where I get my post -millennialism from?

I read the Bible. The Bible's a post -millennial book.

Mm -hmm, and when we return from our first commercial break, we're going to continue on this same thread, but we're also gonna have you men discuss highlights of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in the 30 years that you've been claiming the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Obviously, only Rich has been there for 30 years, since he planted the church, but also, and of course, we wouldn't want you to reveal details in people's names, but some of the trials that the church has experienced and how you achieve victory over some of these things.

And we're gonna be right back after these messages from the sponsors. If you have a question for any of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, just send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back right after these messages.

Hello, this is Brian Nye, president of Hearts for the Lost Ministry. Our sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite, and educate their flock in biblical evangelism.

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That's heartsforthelost .com. Now have a heart and go share your faith. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Welcome back, and I just want you to mark down on your calendars, folks, an interview that I will be having next week, on Tuesday of next week, with my pastor,

Simon O'Mahony, and Simon O'Mahony is no stranger to Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

He has been a visiting preacher there at least a number of years ago, and Simon is going to be speaking on why we use fermented wine at the

Lord's Supper and why we observe the Lord's Supper weekly. That's Tuesday, May 12th, so mark your calendars on that date, and we are going to be having a wonderful time discussing the

Lord's Supper, and I know that Hope Reform Baptist Church has that position of using fermented wine in the

Lord's Supper and observing it weekly as well. Care to comment, Pastor Rich Jansen? Yeah, we came to that conclusion from a study of the scriptures a number of years ago, and it's been a real blessing to know that we're following the

Lord's commands, even down to the smallest of the details. Well, before I go to any listener questions,

I'd like you to highlight some of the most memorable and glorious events that came about as pastor of Hope Reform Baptist Church, and then we could even go through some of the trials that the

Lord has given you victory over, and obviously you only, as far as the trials are concerned, just reveal any kind of information that you see fit for public consumption, but we'll start with you,

Pastor Rich, since you've obviously been there since the beginning at being the planter of this church. Well, we've just seen the

Lord's hand in so many ways. I don't have any numbers, but I think of how many times we've had baptisms, you know, five, six people at a time who have professed faith, you know, demonstrated it in their daily lives, and a desire to be obedient in the waters of baptism.

That's, when we have those baptisms, and we do our baptism Sunday morning during the worship service, and it's just such a blessing.

It's not only spiritually uplifting, but I mean, it's one of the most joyous times when you hear the testimonies of these, some young people and some not -so -young people who the

Lord has saved, and hearing the story of how they were saved, and, you know, how their desire is to follow

Christ. I would say, for me, that's one of the highlights of the 30 years.

And again, this 30 years, it's gone so fast.

I just, it's hard for me to believe that we're celebrating 30 years. Amen, and Pastor Chris, do you have any highlights that you care to mention?

Yeah, I mean, for us, when we first came to Hope, it was at a time where the church was pretty small.

You know, we'd have the Sunday school hour, then they'd have the worship service, and then they would have like a fellowship lunch, and then often after that, like an afternoon

Bible study. Because of being a church plant, people were coming from all over the place, and that's why they chose to do it that way as opposed to,

I think they initially had an evening service, and felt like this was a better way to do it. And at first, when we first got there, we were like, man, they're there all day.

And I was like, we're here all day. I think it's such a blessing. It's such an encouragement, because it's an opportunity to not just come and worship with the saints, but to really get to know one another, you know, breaking bread and have that time of fellowship.

So that was a blessing. But I know when we first got there, there were three rectangular tables, and the men were sort of at one, and the women were at another, and the children were at another, and it wasn't forced segregation.

That's sort of the way it fell out. But the men would all be around,

Bibles open, talking about the sermon, talking about sermons or podcasts that were theological, you know, that they listened to during the week.

And I just remember when my dad had gotten saved, you know, around the time I was born, he would tell me years later that this church that he went to at first, all they wanted to talk about was the scriptures.

All they wanted to talk about was the Lord. And he had never quite seen a church like that since then. And I was like,

I know exactly what you're talking about now, because that's what they're all about over here. And so that was such an encouragement, and that was such a time of growth, time of really getting to know some brothers in Christ and be encouraged in the faith and to go deeper.

The mentoring group was another example of that, a bunch of guys coming together to study.

That was a huge encouragement for me. We were also a homeschooling family that when we came to Hope, we found a lot of the families were homeschooling.

And part of the things they would pray for, one of the things that they would pray for over the pulpit on our

Wednesday night study was praying for the homeschooling families. And that still resonates with my wife in particular.

I remember her hearing that for the first time and feeling so encouraged, knowing that it's such a journey and it can be so difficult at times, and to know that they were being prayed for by the church was just, had a huge impact.

So yeah, some of the best friends I have have been here at Hope, and relationships have flourished.

Talking about the trials, there's been a couple that I can think of that I can't get into detail.

But seeing how biblical the church was, I remember, we pray for those who have been either excommunicated or have left and they're sort of under discipline and praying for their repentance.

And while I was there, we have had an excommunication. But before we had that, we had someone who had been excommunicated who came back and repented and joined the church again.

And that was such a blessing to see. This is what's meant to happen. The purpose of church discipline is not punitive in nature.

It's meant to show them your need is so great. You need, you're at a step of the body, which is a huge danger that you're at a step of Christ who's the head of the body.

And to see someone actually come back and repent and join and be embraced was such a blessing.

To see the biblical glorious result of that church discipline coming to fruition.

And it was sad to see another, to see an excommunication years later, but recognize this is what we must do for that soul and for the body in general, to know that sin is serious and we have to take it seriously.

So seeing that the church handled it biblically, which a lot of churches really shy away from discipline. They feel like it's not their place.

They feel like it's not loving. They just kind of set aside the scriptures when it comes to this important issue. And then another biblical thing that I didn't see,

I hadn't seen at any other church that I was part of was how Pastor Jensen came into the ministry where the church he was part of originally called him to that where normally it's, get the nominating committee, get the resumes, have them preach once or twice and meet and greet with the family over coffee and snacks or something.

Here is someone that they could see the qualifications that Timothy and Titus, the spouses, what his family should look like.

And they say, here's a guy who has giftings and has his family in order.

He should be our pastor. And coming into the ministry through that same biblical organic process and Pastor Anthony as well, well, that's a huge encouragement and helps me to think very, very intentionally about our future generations who are coming up and the opportunity to mentor other young men and encourage them in the faith, knowing that hopefully they'll be replacing us at some point in the future.

Men we know, men we've poured into like Paul did for Timothy and others.

And Anthony Uvino, any highlights in your years that you care to mention?

Sure, it was at Hope that I got to see my daughter be baptized by Pastor Jensen. So she came to faith, made a credible profession of faith.

And now she helps out with the communion and all different types of stuff, setting things up.

So she's there and stays every Sunday, as long as she possibly can and comes on Wednesday nights.

Then me being able to see my brother come to faith and I get the honor of baptizing him.

He was a tough nut to crack, but God doesn't try, he just does.

So he came to faith and he's walking with the Lord and has gone through several different difficult things.

And as always told me, this is for my good and for God's glory. So obviously he gets what we're teaching him.

And then finally, well, not finally, one of the last things is to see my son come to faith and me get to baptize him as well.

And again, he's starting to grow and ask more questions and seek out more theological positions.

And he serves at the church as well. So to see my family come to know the Lord and my mom and dad, we didn't baptize them in the church, but we baptized them in my pool in the backyard.

So we've done a lot of dunking, going right under the water after credible professions of faith, of course.

So to see that and see my family grow and my nephews come every once in a while, my sister -in -law comes, my brother -in -law comes every once in a while, just trying that God would move on their minds and hearts as well.

So those were several highlights. And then being called into ministry, like Pastor Chris said, by your peers, by the congregation is just tremendous honor, which carries with it a tremendous responsibility.

So to know that I was one of the men that they put forth as to be an elder is just an incredible honor.

And then to be ordained with my brother, Pastor Chris, on the same day and go through that whole process and to see how that worked and how it turned out is just a huge blessing.

I am tremendously blessed by ordering with Pastor Chris and Pastor Jensen.

I learned so much from these guys and it's just a blessing to be there. And going back to you,

Pastor Rich, one of the unique things about the Reformed faith is that we believe that no matter how dark a trial, a church or a family or an individual may have to go through, we know that this occurrence and this trial has been decreed and ordained before the foundation of the world by God himself.

I am sure, just like the testimony of every

Reformed person I've ever spoken with will affirm, is that that truth is one of the most magnificent things to cling to when you are oppressed by the church but the pain and the sorrow and the grief and the anxiety and the sadness of whatever trial you may be experiencing may be that God's gonna get you through it because he is the one that decreed it.

Would you confirm what I said and can you mention anything that stands out as far as the life of Hope Reformed Baptist Church where this made itself very evident, this truth that I just mentioned?

Yes, of course, because it's the very character of God and who he is, that he is sovereign, that everything stems from his decree and the promise that he gives us in that for those who are his, all things will work out for the good.

And if it wasn't for who God is, if you take away from the character of God, take away his attributes and as you were saying before, well,

God's trying his best, he couldn't make those promises. And also, 1

Corinthians 10, 13, there's no temptation that's overtaking you but such as is common to man.

But God is faithful and with the temptation will make the way of escape that you may be able to endure it.

Those promises such as those that gets you through the darkest of times.

Lord, you've got a reason why I'm in this misery, this dark period and I trust you and teach me while I'm in it but get me out.

And he doesn't have to try, he will bring you through it and cause all things to happen exactly as he wants them to happen.

And we just have to be ready, willing and able to learn from the experiences that he takes us through.

Now, was there anything specific in the life of hope that made you reach a point where you were wondering, should

I have planted this church? Are we gonna make it through this issue? And so on, where the

Lord really came through to seemingly rescue you out of a situation.

Yeah, there came a point when we, for a variety of reasons, the church and congregation had shrunk.

It was back when the real estate market had hit an all -time high back in the 90s,

I think it was. And we had people leaving Long Island. We lost 13 families from the church, not for any reason where they didn't disagree with doctrine or practice or anything, but just moved off Long Island.

Yeah, we had the same when I was at Christian Foreign Baptist Church. Of course, they were leaving because I was there, but no, there was a massive exodus to North Carolina and Georgia and other places down South, especially.

Yeah, and then couple that with, we did have a couple of issues. Right at that time, we had an excommunication and some people didn't like the idea that we were having an excommunication.

And I have to be honest, I think I prayed at that time, Lord, why now? And of course, the answer is because I said so.

But what happened in that time, we wound up having a prayer meeting, a regular

Wednesday evening prayer meeting. And the funds in the checking account were getting extremely low.

We probably had enough money that if no more money came in, maybe a month's worth of bills could be paid.

And we had to seriously consider, could we keep the doors open? And so at that prayer meeting, which was small because the church was much smaller at that point, we just laid it on the line.

Lord, it's up to you. We are going to keep this going. You called us to plant this church.

I knew that. That was not even a question. And as long as we can continue to do it, we'll do it.

We didn't set about any fundraising, any drives to no thermometers.

We need X amount of dollars. Just pray, Lord, it's up to you. From that point, all of a sudden, we never failed to meet our budget.

The Lord has blessed us financially. And at the same time, was bringing people in that we had no idea where they were even coming from.

And it just made it clear to us that God was behind the work and that it was meant to continue.

So if that answers your question. Several of you, in fact, there's only several of you, there's three of you there.

I think you all brought up church discipline. This is something that really stands out as a hallmark of Reformed Baptist church life.

Because in my experience, having been saved in the 80s and working in Christian media and meeting pastors and people in general from such a wide spectrum of theological thought within the evangelical realm, there are hardly any churches that are actually conducting church discipline.

And if they are, it's usually because something is so extremely scandalous that were they not to do something, it would be an embarrassment to their congregation.

But Pastor Rich, you were asked by my pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church to be one of those that was counseling and observing me when

I was under church discipline. And I thank God for you for that. As I've mentioned a number of times on this show,

I had backslidden about 13 years and 15 years ago into scandalous levels of habitual drunkenness and eventually went to a addiction recovery ministry in Boone, North Carolina, whose praises

I will never stop singing, Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina. But this is something that is, like you were just saying before, there were people in the church that were upset that somebody was being excommunicated.

Well, thank God I did not reach that point because I was listening and obeying the counsel and instructions of my pastors.

So I did not reach the point of excommunication. But this is supposed to be discipline and excommunication not only first and foremost to honor, obey and glorify

God, and secondly, to protect the flock, but it's also meant as an act of love to the one being disciplined.

I mean, if I wasn't disciplined, I think that I would likely died from the level of alcohol

I was consuming. So is this not something that is so overlooked by many

Christians and even many pastors about this being an act of love? And of course, what we can't forget, that Reformed Baptists have an earned reputation in our midst, not that every pastor in church did this, but there has been abuse of authoritarianism and harsh discipline that exceeded the discipline you see in Scripture.

But at the same time, this is an act of love, is it not, Pastor Rich, and we'll have the other two brethren comment as well.

Absolutely, and in one such circumstance, I wound up having a conversation with a pastor who had accepted somebody that had left our church under excommunication, and I just made him aware of the divisive nature of what the conduct was, et cetera, and I told him that he was under discipline, and he says, well, we would never, never do something like that.

We're a loving congregation. Wow. And I just looked at him, I said, so you're more loving than Jesus?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Because it was Jesus who said to do this. And I think he had to get another phone call at that point.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, and he says that because it didn't happen in his congregation, whatever it was, because if something happened with enough severity that it was threatening to do harm, or was doing harm to him and his flock, they would have conducted church discipline and excommunication if it was warranted.

Anything to say about this, Pastor Chris? I mean, it was one of the

Reformers who identified the three marks of a true church is the pure gospel being taught, pure doctrine, the sacraments being issued, and church discipline being exercised.

If you're gonna have a true church, you have to have those things. Again, as Pastor Johnson mentioned, are you more loving than Christ?

Matthew 18, the very words of Jesus, not that the rest of scripture aren't also the words of Jesus, but he tells us.

Now, right after giving the parable of the lost sheep, this idea we have to pursue that one who goes astray, then this idea is reconciliation and restoration.

He outweighs what this one is to look like. And even in the opening chapters of Revelation, here

Jesus in his glory is calling them to hold the body accountable, to deal with false teachers, to deal with those who are in sin.

Again, it's consistent throughout the scriptures that this needs to be done for all those reasons.

It's to honor and glorify our God and Savior, our King. It's to protect the body and purify the church.

And again, it is for the soul of that wayward one. And so to neglect it does great harm to all of us.

We bring reproach on the name of Christ, and how many times do we see this in those people who have big platforms, celebrities, pastors or preachers who are scandalized and then trying to return, rush back into ministry because they're just, they're not expendable apparently, and there's no humility there.

And the church is boxed for it. How many churches, how many souls are collateral damage as pastor mentioned?

So many times if church just one does have exercise, you lose people who they don't get it, they don't agree with it, and they go away.

I'm grateful that the excommunication that I was around for not too long ago, we didn't lose anyone over it.

It was done biblically, it was done with everyone's knowledge and understanding, public reproof that people were praying and reaching out for this person, and we lost no one from it.

But if you have a situation where you're not exercising church discipline, you're encouraging the flock in the wrong way.

That sin is not that serious, and that Jesus sort of accepts you just that way, and there's no call to repentance, we lose the

Lordship that we speak of. And when we come back from our midway break, we'll have

Anthony Uvino chime in on that same issue. And we'll get to a couple of listener questions that are waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

If you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.

I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show. But today

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Before we go to some of our listener questions, Pastor Anthony, we were gonna have you give your comments on the importance of church discipline.

Is that the goal of church discipline is restoration, to restore the person back to the body of Christ and bring harmony and peace between the two parties or between the person and the congregation?

In today's social media age, the quick response when somebody disagrees with you is to just hit a button, block them and move away.

It's so much easier to separate than it is to draw together. But the scripture tells us to strive for the spirit of unity and the bond of peace.

The church of Jesus Christ above all entities on the earth should learn how to lovingly forgive one another and move towards that goal of restoration.

It's again, so important because even in the body, when you break a bone and the bone heals, the bone heals stronger than when it broke, right?

So the wound that has healed in the body ends up bringing people closer together and it's a testimony to the strength of, not the strength, but the obedience to God's word that makes us whole.

So it's so important to strive for that peace because the rest of the world is seeking to cut and run.

And I think it also has to deal with your understanding of what the word love means.

Love does not rejoice in wrongdoing. Love doesn't mean that you let people do whatever they want if it makes them feel good.

So we have to call sin what it is when it happens and we have to call the person to repentance and back to common fellowship with everyone else.

Think about the way the school system and the society 20, 30, 40 years ago started talking about how you can't spank your children.

And if you spank your children, you're like a barbarian. Meanwhile, spanking your children is biblical when it's done correctly.

And it lets them know that there's a sting and a penalty for sin. Well, all these kids who weren't spanked are now growing up and are part of churches.

And of course you can't have church discipline because that'd be like spanking somebody, right? Again, not understanding the true goal of discipline is restoration and healing in the body of Christ.

And when that happens, it's beautiful. You see two people who were at odds with one another now in communion with one another and celebrating

God in the midst of it. So it's indispensable for the health of the church. All right, we've got

Lenny in Rocky Point, Long Island who has a question. And Lenny says, how do you respond to the often repeated charge that Reformed Baptist is an oxymoron and there is no such thing?

Let's start with Pastor Rich. I'm sure you've heard that, Pastor Rich. Oh yeah, yeah.

I always try to respond in love, understanding where they're coming from, understanding that we believe that the

Reformed Baptist position is the one that is truly Reformed, that the

Pato Baptist understanding of Reformed and the covenant doesn't go far enough.

And of course, then there's, you know, the idea that you can't find anywhere in the scripture any explicit reference to Pato Baptism.

And whereas on the other hand, Pato Baptism is all over the pages of it. It's just in black and white even.

So any comments, Chris? Temple Reformando, right?

That was the claim, always Reforming, but then they stopped. So, you know, again,

I think, and this is, we have so much appreciation for our Pato Baptist brethren.

I think that needs to be mentioned at the outset. People joke about the 1689 as being like, you know, copying off the

Westminster like in high school or something, copying off their tests and getting some of the answers wrong.

And no, we corrected those answers. But if you understand, because we have brethren who we love dearly who are consider themselves new covenant and they don't hold to the 1689, they don't have the same view of the 10 commandments that we do in the, you know, the -

And unfortunately, Chris has frozen. The fourth commandment sat. And they say, well, we like the first Lenten Baptist confession of faith as opposed to the second.

But I would, you know, remind them, you know, lovingly, racially, teasingly, that the framers of the first Lenten Baptist confession wouldn't agree with them and their understanding.

The first Lenten Baptist confession of faith was trying to show their agreement with the

Pato Baptist at the time using the best Pato Baptist confessions, 39 articles, the Irish confession of faith, and trying to say, we agree with you on so much.

And they were sort of distinguishing themselves from the Anabaptists, which they put as their introductory remarks, distinguishing themselves from the

Anabaptists in both confessions is what they were trying to do because they agree with them on Creole baptism, but they agree with their

Pato Baptist brethren on pretty much everything else. And they were trying to show how lockstep they were with their brothers in Christ, but they disagreed with them on the issue of who's a proper candidate for baptism and who's in the covenant and also on ecclesiologic church government.

And so that's why the first Lenten Baptist is framed the way it's framed. And then the 69 is framed very similar to the

Westminster and also with influence from the Savoy, the Congregationalists who were Pato Baptists, but had a different ecclesiology that was more similar to the

Baptists. So we agree on so much, but what we have found, and again, love our

Pato Baptist brethren. I've had people who have been Reformed Baptists and moved into the Pato Baptist camp. I sent my daughter to a

Pato Baptist college and community. And so we've had much study and much discussion on these issues and really just doesn't hold up to the weight of scripture.

And so we would encourage them to continue looking at it. I think it's one of those traditions that carried over from the

Romanist days. And one of the signs of that is you'll have Pato Baptists argue for Pato Baptism using different reasoning.

Pato Baptists don't all agree why they're baptizing their children, which means they're not getting it from scripture. They're trying to piece it together themselves and put a framework together.

So yeah, we don't worry too much about people say, oh, you're not really Reformed. Okay, we'll hold the title anyway and we're okay with it.

I think I just found a debate candidate for my friend,

Keith Klosky, who's a First London Confession guy.

And Anthony, do you have anything to add to that? My two brothers covered that well.

However, the same way I never saw the words God and try in the same sentence,

I've never saw the words be baptized and then repent. It's always repent and be baptized.

And if you reverse the order of those things, you may have a baptized baby who doesn't repent.

If you're not calling them to faith and repentance, isn't faith the entrance into the new covenant?

Again, our Pato Baptist brothers would disagree. The entrance into the covenant is through baptism and then a profession of faith, but you're not really in the new covenant with Jesus as your intercessor and the forgiveness of sins.

So it's repent and be baptized. I'm happy to follow the scripture's order. Yeah, one of the -

If I can just interject. Sure, go ahead. One final word. When you hold up the two positions next to each other, the

Pato Baptist position just doesn't hold water. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

The odd thing about this, and I have very close, extremely close,

Pato Baptist brothers who are friends of mine, and one of which I know you all know, he absolutely refuses to call us

Reformed Baptists and he always calls us Calvinistic Baptists. The odd thing about that is you're taking a general term like Reformed, where there is legitimate reasons to have under that umbrella people with differences of different variety, and you're replacing it with the name of a specific individual who is a

Pato Baptist. So it makes less sense to call us

Calvinistic Baptists than call us Reformed Baptists. I mean, it's just very odd, very odd.

We have Tommy in Wolcott, Connecticut, and Tommy says, the biggest challenge to Calvinists that I always hear from those that oppose that system is that we make

God the author of evil. How can we biblically explain, how can we biblically explain that God does decree evil things, including the death of his own son through the execution on Calvary, without saying that he is the author of evil?

And Pastor Rich, we'll start with you. Well, that's the age -old question, you know.

God, we use the analogy of first and second causes.

God decrees what's going to happen, but at the same time, it's the free actions of the created beings that actually perform the evil.

I think that's the simplest bottom line. Yeah, so the misconception that Armenians and even many

Calvinists have, sometimes Calvinists, perhaps those that are still young in the faith and relatively unlearned, they will seem to perpetuate the idea that man doesn't have a will.

And that's not true. We believe that he freely and enthusiastically chooses to sin.

He enjoys it. The issue is what humans willingly come to Christ, and how, and why.

And we believe that it's because their selfish hearts of stone have been removed and replaced with hearts of flesh, and then they willingly come to Christ, enthusiastically come to Christ.

Do you other two men have anything to add to that about the charge against us that we're the ones that make

God the author of evil because he decrees all things that happen? I agree with the pastor.

The 16 and nine chapter three talks about God's decree, talks about, as Pastor Jensen mentioned, first and second causes, and offers scripture to demonstrate that.

The scriptures plainly say that, yeah, God, he doesn't actually tempt men to sin.

In him, there is no darkness. And so that's the end of the story.

His decreeing things and man's doing thing of his own free will, that will is tied to his nature, but he's still the one doing it.

God is not forcing him to do it. And the totality of the scriptures bear that out. Isn't it odd that they would balk at the fact that God permits evil, and had he not permitted evil, none of us would be here.

That's number one. Number two, like R .C. Sproul says, it's radical corrupt, total depravity is radical corruption.

In other words, it stems from our root. It's rooted in our heart.

So I like to say that we have a free will, we just don't have a good will. So we are gonna freely choose out of the depravity of our own hearts.

We're gonna choose that which is self -centered. We're gonna choose that which is against God. And even if we did choose something on the surface that looked like it was going in a godly direction, the next moment we'll change our minds.

I am not counting my salvation on my love for God. I'm counting on his love for me.

That's the only thing that doesn't fluctuate. That's the only thing that doesn't change because God is immutable where man is mutable.

We're fickle. We're gonna be tossed to and fro like the ocean up and down on mood swings.

That's not God. Now, since God is restraining the evil of all men, including the reprobate, otherwise, if he was not restraining evil on this planet, not only would we not be safe walking outside the door of our home, we wouldn't even be safe in our own home if God was not restraining evil.

So therefore, there are, by God's common grace, and I know that my

Protestant Reform folks don't like that understanding, but because of the fact that God does have common grace even upon the reprobate, they are making good choices on occasion in their lives.

They just can't savingly choose Christ if they are still unregenerate because those who are in the flesh cannot please

God, as our scripture teaches, and therefore, you can't even believe savingly without being regenerate because you're in the flesh and that pleases

God to believe savingly. Am I making sense? Sure.

Yeah. I think mankind has the capacity to choose evil, but the moral inability.

In other words, again, they're broke. Say again? Do you mean to choose good? The moral inability is the moral inability to choose good.

Right, right. You said immoral. I'm sorry. No, he has the desire.

He has the capacity. So we have the capacity to choose to do good, but the moral inability.

Again, that's what restrains us. That's why Jesus says, he whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

You have to be set free and changed on the inside in order to follow him diligently.

Yeah, the accusations seem to come to a standstill in social media when anti -Calvinists are hurling ugly insults at Calvinists for believing that God decrees evil.

They seem to come to an abrupt halt when you say, so the betrayal and execution of Jesus Christ was something that happened by happenstance?

God was just sitting back and hoping that Judas would betray

Christ and hoping that Pontius Pilate would release Christ and all that.

I'm sorry. Would condemn Christ and that the Roman soldiers would nail him to that tree.

Obviously this didn't happen by happenstance. This was something that was ordained every detail and they don't have an answer for that obviously because they knew, they know

I should say, that that had to happen. Let's see here.

We've got Lloyd in, let's see, where was

I? Oh, Point Lookout, New York. Lloyd in Point Lookout, New York says, can you men honestly say things that you are disappointed over in regard to the

Reformed movement at large? Pastor Rich, can you say anything that comes to mind where you know that the

Reformed folks in the church at large could do better because, we know better in essence because of our theologically being more biblically accurate and you still see trends towards unbiblical thinking and behavior amongst the

Reformed folks? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter if you're a

Reformed Baptist, you still have enough of the old man left in you that you have a propensity to sin.

And if you look at, you just look at some of the disputes between Reformed Baptists, you know, high profile people, where neither party looked very

Christian in how they're dealing with their brother who is also a

Reformed Baptist. That's gonna happen anytime you have a group of people, there's gonna be differences of opinion and they're not always gonna be handled right.

And I would say from my perspective, and I'm somewhat of a latecomer into Reformed Baptists anyway

I know it's over 30 years now, but still that's still somewhat of a latecomer.

But hearing about and seeing firsthand at some of the disputes that took place and then were aired publicly, it's been disappointing.

In fact, my brother, Pastor Anthony, I love what he says, we hold to the doctrines of grace, we should never be outgraced by anybody else.

And unfortunately, I think sometimes in the Reformed Baptist movement, egos get in the way and there's harsh talk and there could be a lot more grace.

That's just off the top of my head. Yeah, Chris, do you have anything to add?

Yeah, I don't know how much of it is something Reformed Baptists have in a monopoly on as far as failing to live up to the standard we should.

But I mean, we're Reformed Baptists and we say we hold these doctrines and our understanding of that is it's...

Our understanding is it's the most biblical position and that's why we hold it. Obviously, if we thought we were wrong, we would change it.

But the more light you have, the more responsibility you have. My concern is sometimes you have people who are

Reformed, whether they are the Reformed Reformed or Reformed Baptist, whatever they are, by tradition rather than conviction.

There's many people in Reformed churches of every stripe that don't actually know the doctrines that they are sitting under the teaching of and doing a well enough job of studying themselves, owning it themselves, passing it on to their children themselves.

And so that's always a concern. I think that's concerning every church. And as pastor mentioned, how we interact with each other.

I'm not involved in social media like I used to be when I was younger, but it's very disappointing to see people who

I would say are solid as far as like we hold the same doctrinal positions or very, very close, not exhibiting the grace that's supposed to transform us.

And it's very, very unfortunate to see that division on display for the world.

I mean, there's going to be disagreements, but there is Godly ways to handle those disagreements. And boy, we need more grace in doing that.

But I think just on a more molecular level, I remember one brother pointing out to me that as Reformed Baptist, because we have a different view of the covenant and who's in it, we're not as unified as a body.

I think, unfortunately, I repeat about this, brethren are just as guilty of that themselves at times, not being as unified as they should.

But the point is still taken, here in America anyway,

I think we're so used to viewing ourselves as individuals and pursuing our own goals and dreams and whatnot that we don't think enough about that we are the body of Christ and we are the church militant.

And we have this calling as the covenant people of Christ to be advancing His kingdom.

And for that to be our top priority that everything else sort of falls into place under, what does

Christ say? Seek first the kingdom and His righteousness and all of these things will be added to you. I think we need to do more in terms of understanding why we're here and living for the purposes of glorifying

Christ and recognizing our need for one another in that. I feel too many people can be complacent, they're just comfortable with, they see their brothers and sisters once a week for a brief time and they're content with that.

And I think we shouldn't be that content with that lack of community that I think we all have.

And when we come back, we'll have Anthony Eugenio chime in with his thoughts on the same question and don't go away.

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Pastor's Luncheon. And Anthony Uvinio, what gets under your skin the most about the

Reformed movement in general? I think it was Martin Luther who said, don't measure your own holiness by someone else's sin.

Right. You know, we easily point out the areas in other people's doctrine or practices and things that they do that are wrong, but that doesn't make us holy.

You can't build a reputation on what you're going to do. Right. So you have to act charitably.

You have to obey God yourself. So just the simple, not the simple, just the simple way that people point out other people's sins, thinking that that makes them better than someone else is just wrong.

It's arrogant, actually. So again, if it is a true brother in Christ and they're out of line in their behavior or they're out of line in their doctrine, it's up to us to gently go to that brother or sister and talk to them and draw closer to them rather than pull away.

So again, it's easy to point out obvious sins and obvious false teaching, but that doesn't make you better than someone else.

That doesn't make you holy. So basically, pride and arrogance exists far too often amongst

Reformed people. And we, amongst all Christians, are the ones that have, at the very basis of our theology, that man is to be humbled to the very dust of the ground, knowing that we can't do anything apart from the kindness and grace and mercy of God, and that he is exalted above everything in the universe and heaven and earth.

And yet we still have this arrogant notion on occasion that we are innately better than other people.

Well, before we run out of time, Pastor Rich, I'd like you to summarize why people should pay a visit at the

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island. It's a place where you can glorify

God. There's true biblical worship going on, and it's a place of love, and the truth is put forth.

I always like to remind the congregation of the, I think it was Vance Havner who said, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

Amen. And Chris McDowell? Yeah, what he said. It's been a blessing for us.

My joy has been to see a church that I felt has been so biblical in its function, and I'm indebted to, first and foremost,

Christ, but I'm really indebted to Pastor Jensen for seeking to faithfully follow the scriptures and to lead the church.

I think God has used him, and so it's been a blessing for us.

We've seen our girls get married and get engaged, get baptized, and there's been so many blessings.

And so the fellowship truly is beautiful. It's a joy to know that I don't have to go home and correct what was said over the pandemic or Sunday school or something like that.

You know, that there's just unity in the truth that's being presented on the scriptures.

And the scriptures are central. You know, we don't go for the pop culture stuff, whatever the newest fad is, whatever the hot book is.

It's always back to the Word, back to the Word, back to the Word. And if that's what you're looking for, that's what you're gonna find.

And Pastor Anthony Vigna? Well, you know, if you're a fan of Brad Pitt or Pastors, it doesn't ring a bell.

So, you know, I mean, that's the biggest attraction for a lot of people. So I'll leave it to what my other brothers just said.

You can't add to that. And I just wanna personally thank all three of you and everybody in that congregation that I've come to know and love over the decades.

I always consider Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island my home away from home.

And it's always a joy to visit you. I'm looking forward with bated breath to be with you on Saturday, May 30th for the 30th anniversary celebration of Hope Reformed Baptist Church.

I can't wait for that. I wanna thank you so much for your financial support of Iron Trip and Zion Radio and your prayers and your encouragement.

They mean more to me than I have the capability of expressing in the human language.

Before I go, I just wanted to read a passage of scripture for all of those who think it's evil and wicked for Christians to believe that God decrees evil things that occur, since that was a major question earlier.

When we go to 2 Samuel 12, and we go to starting at verse 10, and what is happening is

Nathan the prophet is revealing to David what an evil man he is regarding his adultery and murder of Uriah the

Hittite and so on. He says, now therefore the sword shall never depart, and this is

God speaking through Nathan. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the

Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the Lord, behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household.

I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

Indeed, you did it secretly, but I will do these things before all

Israel and under the sun. So I think that there you have it, very clearly spelled out.

But brothers, I wanna thank you again for being such wonderful guests. Look forward to your return to the show.

Don't forget folks, the website for Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coral Moon Island is hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.