Holiness and the Presence of Jesus — Zac Poonen

Meeting the Lord in the New Covenant

In the Old Testament, they could not meet with the Lord. They could only hear his message through his servant. In the Old Testament, they could not meet with the Lord. They could only hear his message through his servant.

This is one of the big differences in the New Covenant. This is one of the big differences in the New Covenant. I find many believers are happy that they have heard a message. Maybe a very stirring message.

And there are many preachers and pastors who can preach stirring messages. And there are many preachers and pastors who can preach stirring messages. That is not a spiritual gift always. There are politicians who can speak in such a powerful way that for two hours people are held captive listening to them.

There are politicians who can speak in such a powerful way that for two hours people are held captive listening to them. But in the New Covenant, the purpose of our coming together is to meet with the Lord, not just to hear a message.

But in the New Covenant, the purpose of our coming together is to meet with the Lord, not just to hear a message. See 1 Corinthians 14, it speaks about the whole church assembling together in verse 23.

See 1 Corinthians 14, it speaks about the whole church assembling together in verse 23. Verse 23, the whole church is assembling together. And if everybody speaks in tongues, they will not say the Lord is in your midst, they will say you are mad.

And if everybody speaks in tongues, they will not say the Lord is in your midst, they will say you are mad. Today there are many churches where they come together, they all speak in tongues. Today there are many churches where they come together, they all speak in tongues.

But what do those believers say? But what do those believers say? They say the Lord is here. They say the Lord is here. No, that's not what the Bible says. The Bible says they are mad. The Bible says they are mad.

You recognize that. You recognize that. That's why we don't do that. That's why we don't do that. But, when you come together, if people prophesy, verse 24,. But, when you come together, if people prophesy, verse 24, prophesy in the New Testament does not mean predicting the future.

Prophesy in the New Testament does not mean predicting the future. That was Old Testament prophecy. That was Old Testament prophecy. In the New Testament, prophecy is described here in verse 3 as speaking to edify, exhort and console.

In the New Testament, prophecy is described here in verse 3 as speaking to edify, exhort and console. Even today, there are millions of believers who will not accept the biblical definition of prophecy in that verse,.

But believe what some preacher tells them, some pastor tells them. But believe what some preacher tells them, some pastor tells them. If you don't believe me, go to any Pentecostal man and ask him what he understands by prophecy.

If you don't believe me, go to any Pentecostal man and ask him what he understands by prophecy. They will never quote verse 3 here. They will never quote verse 3 here. Their entire understanding of prophecy is Old Covenant.

Their entire understanding of prophecy is Old Covenant. Therefore, they are deceived. Therefore, they are deceived. But here is the Holy Spirit's definition of prophecy in the New Covenant. But here is the Holy Spirit's definition of prophecy in the New Covenant.

Testing Teaching by Scripture

I grew up in the Orthodox Church. I grew up in the Orthodox Church. And I had not read the Bible when I was born again. And I had not read the Bible when I was born again. After I was born again, in six months, I read through the whole Bible.

And then I studied it intensely for the next seven years. And then I studied it intensely for the next seven years. And I made one decision then. That I don't care which church, Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal, anything, teaches something.

If it is not in the Word of God, I will not accept it. If it is not in the Word of God, I will not accept it. I want to tell you, after 57 years of being a believer, that decision has saved my life. I want to tell you, after 57 years of being a believer, that decision has saved my life.

Romans 3 .3 says, Let all God be true and every man a liar. Romans 3 .3 says, Let all God be true and every man a liar. That has been my position. That has been my position. Romans 3 .4. Romans 3 .4 Let God be true and everybody else is a liar.

Let God be true and everybody else is a liar. I don't know how many of you sitting here take that position. I don't know how many of you sitting here take that position. God's Word is true, everything else is false.

God's Word is true, everything else is false. I don't care which preacher preaches it. I don't care which preacher preaches it. I don't care which man with whatever gift says it, if it's not in the Word of God, I don't accept it.

I don't care which man with whatever gift says it, if it's not in the Word of God, I don't accept it. We need more people like the Berean Christians who would not accept even what Paul said, till they checked in the scriptures.

We need more people like the Berean Christians who would not accept even what Paul said, till they checked in the scriptures. You read that in Acts 17. You read that in Acts 17. They heard Paul speak.

They heard Paul speak. And then they went and checked the scriptures during the next week. And then they went and checked the scriptures during the next week. Because they didn't have a Bible like this those days.

Because they didn't have a Bible like this those days. They had only a scrolled parchment in the synagogue of the Bible. They had only a scrolled parchment in the synagogue of the Bible. So if they wanted to check those 39 books in the Bible, they had to go to the synagogue and check.

So if they wanted to check those 39 books in the Bible, they had to go to the synagogue and check. So they would say, after Paul's sermon, Praise the Lord, thank you for your sermon. So they would say, after Paul's sermon, Praise the Lord, thank you for your sermon.

That is what protected them. That is what protected them. And if you take that attitude, it will protect you, otherwise you will be thoroughly deceived. And if you take that attitude, it will protect you, otherwise you will be thoroughly deceived.

Even if I say something, check with the word of God. Even if I say something, check with the word of God. Paul said in Galatians 1, even if an angel comes and says something, don't believe it if it's not in God's word.

Paul said in Galatians 1, even if an angel comes and says something, don't believe it if it's not in God's word. Even if the angel curses you, don't believe it if it's not in God's word. How many of you have that attitude?

The only way is if you study the scriptures carefully. So here it says, if people prophesy in a church, that means they speak God's word to challenge and comfort and build up. Then what will happen? Verse 25, secrets of people's hearts are made manifest.

That means you will discover secret sins in your life that you never knew before. That means you will discover secret sins in your life that you never knew before. You will realize your wrong attitudes.

People around you don't know what God is saying to you, but your wrong attitudes will manifest in your heart. When you hear God's word in your heart, what will you say? You will not say, that was a good message.

You will say in verse 25, God is certainly here. So, in the new covenant we don't meet a message, we meet with God. That is a real new testament meeting. If everybody speaks in tongues, they are mad. That's what the Holy Spirit who gave the gift of tongues is saying.

That's what the Holy Spirit who gave the gift of tongues is saying. But if the word of God is preached, and people meet with God, that's how it must be in every meeting of ours. We go away saying, I met with Jesus.

From Bible Study to Seeing Jesus

See Luke chapter 24. We read about a time when, after the resurrection, the two disciples, I think they were husband and wife, walking towards Emmaus. Because they were living in the same house. It must have been a husband and wife walking back home.

And Jesus walked with them. And the whole distance, it says in verse 13, was 7 miles or about 11 kilometers. So, that must have taken them 3 hours. To walk from Jerusalem to Emmaus. Jesus walked with them.

But they did not see him. They did not know who he was. They saw a man, but they didn't know it was Jesus. And what did Jesus speak to them for 3 hours? Verse 27. From Moses and the prophets. That means from Genesis to Malachi.

So, Jesus took a 3 hour Bible study through the Bible from Genesis to Malachi. That must have been a wonderful Bible study. And every book, it speaks concerning Jesus. Verse 27. And they said afterwards, that when we heard him, verse 32, our hearts were burning within us as he explained the scriptures to us.

That's wonderful to hear the word of God in such a way that our hearts burn within us when we hear the scriptures. That is the mark of Jesus speaking. When Jesus speaks, our hearts burn within us. And anyone who preaches must have that longing.

That has been my longing for many many years. I said, Lord, I want you to speak through me so that people's hearts will burn when they hear the word of God. But that's not enough. Their hearts burned, but they didn't see Jesus.

And so, the Lord wanted to lead them further. He went into their home. Then verse 31, the eyes were opened and they saw him. So, that's where the Bible study must end. That our hearts burned, ultimately we have met with Jesus himself.

That is how a New Testament church meeting must be. That's been my longing. Every church meeting, Lord, people's hearts must burn when they hear the word of God, and they go away having met with Jesus.

Their eyes were opened to see Jesus. No, that doesn't depend entirely on the preacher. It depends on the person. See, these two people had a great longing. When Jesus was going away, they said, no, stay back.

We read in the 28th verse that Jesus showed them the way forward. When he showed them the way forward, they said, stop, park with us. They urged him to park with them. Jesus said, no, I'll go. Again, he said, I'll go.

No, don't go, park with us. I will not let you go unless you bless me. And it is such people who meet with Jesus. And only people who have such a longing to meet with Jesus in this conference will meet with him.

Only people who have such a longing to meet with Jesus in this conference will meet with him. Others will say, it was a blessed conference. Our hearts were burning. Or I learned something new. It all depends on you.

Do you want to meet with Jesus? I'm not interested in learning something new from the Bible. I'm interested in meeting with Jesus when I read the Bible. A lot of people study the Bible to learn something new so that they can preach and get some honor.

When I was young, I was like that. When I was a child, I spoke like a child. When I've grown up, I put away childish things. I spoke like a child. I want to show you an Old Testament example. Exodus 33.

Moses Chooses God's Presence over the Promised Land

You know in chapter 32 we read, they made the golden calf and started worshipping it and God was very angry with them. And he wanted to destroy those 20 lakhs of people there. The 20 lakh Israelites, he wanted to destroy all of them.

And Moses pleaded with them and pleaded with God and God said, I will not. And then God said. Chapter 33 verse 1. Okay, you can go now. Go into the land that I promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will not come with you.

I will send an angel, verse 2. I will not come with you. I'm tired of your sinning attitude. I'm holy and I cannot come with all of you. But I will send an angel, I will not forsake you, I will send an angel.

And you will still, with that angel, you will still drive out, verse 2, the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. And you will still possess that land, verse 3, still you will possess the land flowing with milk and honey.

In verse 3, it is said, you will still possess that land. But I will not come with you. They could have said, that's fine. We will defeat all the enemies. We will get this land flowing with milk and honey.

That's all we want. That's how many believers are. Lord, you blessed us. You will even give us victory over sin. Wonderful, what more do we want? You give us revelation on your word. Bless us in so many ways.

Are you happy? All the Israelites would have been happy. But Moses said, verse 15, Lord, I am not interested in all this. If your presence is not coming with us, I don't even want to move from here. If your presence is not coming with us, I don't even want to move from here.

I don't want a land flowing with milk and honey. I will live in this desert all my life. Your presence is more important to me than defeating the enemies and land flowing with milk and honey. Your presence is more important to me than defeating the enemies and land flowing with milk and honey.

That is the type of man who meets with God. If you are like that, you will meet with God. Not just in the conference, but all the time. Not just in the conference, but all the time. Your greatest longing must be to have the presence of Jesus with you.

I have often said this, I am not interested in going to heaven. I don't think I have ever been interested in going to heaven. I want to be with Jesus. Location is not important. Location is not important.

If I go to my house and my wife is not there, the place is empty. What is important to me, the house or the person? What is important to me in heaven? I am not interested in mansions or crowns. I say you can have all of that.

I say Lord, I want to be with you. I say Lord, I am ready to go to hell if you are there. To me the fire and worms don't disturb me. The presence of Jesus will make heaven for me. And this is why I already have a foretaste of heaven now.

And this is why I already have a foretaste of heaven now. I want, particularly you young people, I wish you would long to have the presence of Jesus with you always. I wish you would long to have the presence of Jesus with you always.

Then when you read the scriptures, your hearts will burn of course. But more than that, the presence of Christ will be there. But more than that, the presence of Christ will be there. See one of the results of that.

See Psalm 16. Psalm 16 verse 11. The last part. In thy presence is fullness of joy. There are many people who read that word which says, Rejoice in the Lord always. Rejoice in the Lord always. Always means 24 hours every day.

And many people say, is that possible? In thy presence there is fullness of joy. If you long for the presence of the Lord as most important in your life, it is possible. If you long for the presence of the Lord as most important in your life, there will be fullness of joy with you.

Lord, I never want to lose your presence. Do you know that the slightest sin can make you lose the presence of the Lord? Like this electric wire, if it is cut, power is gone. Like this electric wire, if it is cut, power is gone.

It is like a big gap, just a slight cut and it is over. It is like a big gap, just a slight cut and it is over. Sin is like that. The reason I want to be completely free from sin is because I want the presence of the Lord all the time.

I am not satisfied with defeating the Canaanites, the Hittites and the Amorites. I am not satisfied with defeating the Canaanites, the Hittites and the Amorites. I am not even interested in a land flowing with milk and honey.

I say, Lord, if you don't go with us, I would rather stay in the wilderness. I say, Lord, if you don't go with us, I would rather stay in the wilderness. That is what made Moses the man of God that he was.

That is what made Moses the man of God that he was. I find so many believers are not like that today. They are interested in the gifts of the Spirit, experiences, seeing angels, visions and all that. They are interested in the gifts of the Spirit, experiences, seeing angels, visions and all that.

No, to me, it is the presence of Jesus which is most important. No, to me, it is the presence of Jesus which is most important. When I have made that my priority, When I have made that my priority, I have discovered that I can rejoice in the Lord for 24 hours.

I have discovered that I can rejoice in the Lord for 24 hours. I think of that sometimes when I am sick. I think of that sometimes when I am sick. When you are sick, you can't sleep, you have fever and cold and all that.

And I ask myself, Lord, can I rejoice in you right now? Sure, because the Lord hasn't changed. My physical condition may change, but the Lord hasn't changed. So, I refuse to rejoice in my physical condition, I rejoice in the Lord.

I rejoice in the Lord. You know, in the western lands, when people are married in a wedding, their vows are like this. It's not exactly like that, how we do it in our vows in our church. They say, in sickness and in health, I will be true to you.

Husband and wife will say to each other, in poverty and in wealth, I will be true to you. Now, even though we don't say that in our vows, we mean that also. So, that's how we can say to the Lord. This is also a marriage we have with Jesus.

Sickness and health make no difference. Poverty and wealth make no difference. When a couple love each other, these things are unimportant. That is how our relationship with Jesus must be. I wish every one of you, my dear brothers and sisters, will live in such a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Genuine Holiness Begins in the Heart

So, I want to share a few things concerning genuine holiness. Genuine holiness is having the presence of the Lord with us all the time. But you can't have that unless you long for that more than everything else.

Genuine holiness is not just overcoming anger or overcoming dirty thoughts. Or, I don't watch pornography anymore. Or, I have no jealousy, no bitterness. No, it's the presence of Jesus with me all the time.

If you don't have that, that's not genuine holiness. Because these external things, you know, some of those things even people who practice yoga can get it. There was a brother who came to our church from Hinduism who said, I overcame anger before I came to the church.

I practiced yoga and I overcame anger. But where did he overcome it? In the tongue. Anger was still in his heart. Yoga does not cleanse your heart. Yoga keeps the snakes all locked up inside, but no snake is allowed to come outside through the tongue.

To other people it looks like victory, this chap never loses his temper. Don't be deceived by that. If you have locked up all the snakes inside, don't think you have got victory. It's good that you don't let the snakes come outside and bite others.

But seek the Lord to cleanse your heart. Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will be satisfied. See, hunger and thirst for righteousness is not controlling my tongue.

That is second best. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness is that there will be no snake inside my heart. There is no anger in my heart towards this person, not just that I control my tongue. I say that because some of you may be deceived about victory over sin, that I control my tongue, I have got victory.

Then you are a good Buddhist, not a disciple of Jesus. A disciple of Jesus, his heart is free from anger. Ecclesiastes, it says, anger dwells in the heart of a fool. And if the anger is there and he controls his tongue, that is not genuine holiness.

That's why Jesus said, avoiding adultery on the outside is not holiness. It's being delivered from it inside, that is holiness. So this is very important to understand. What is the difference between Jesus and the Pharisees?

The Pharisees' Correct Doctrine and External Cleanliness

What is the difference between Jesus and the Pharisees? The holiness that the Pharisees had was false holiness. Jesus had the true holiness. What are the two certificates that Jesus gave to the Pharisees?

Good certificates. We think that Jesus only condemned the Pharisees for everything. Among all the things that he condemned them for, he appreciated two good things. Matthew 23. This chapter is full of the things he pointed out were wrong in the Pharisees.

Jesus pointed out the mistakes of the Pharisees in Matthew 23. But in the middle of that, Jesus said two things. Jesus said that their advice was 100 correct. If we look at two or three, it is like that.

He told his disciples. The scribes and Pharisees are sitting in the chair of Moses. Everything, everything that they tell you to do, do. Everything. Don't do according to the actions, but what they tell you to do is 100 correct.

Don't do according to their actions, but what they tell you to do is 100 correct. What did he say? Your advice is 100 correct. That is the first certificate that Jesus gave. Their advice is 100 correct.

Their doctrine is 100 right. Jesus will never say like this. Whatever the Catholics tell you to do, do. They tell you to pray to Mary, pray to Mary. He will never say verse 3. All that they tell you to do, do.

He will not say all that the CSI people tell you to do, do. If they baptize infants, it's okay. It's a very strong statement. Everything they tell you to do, do. All that the Pentecostals tell you to do, do.

All that the Pentecostals tell you to do, do. Speak in tongues without any interpretation in public. That is madness. We saw that already. Jesus will not say that's okay. So, which group can Jesus say all that they tell you to do, do?

Which group can Jesus say all that they tell you to do, do? Only those who are taking the scripture exactly and obeying it exactly. If everyone speaks in tongues in public, that is madness. The Bible says that.

Have you ever heard any preacher say that? The brethren in the assembly may say that. But we read it in the same chapter. Don't separate what is spoken in tongues. The brethren won't agree on that. Many Christian believers will take the words they like and avoid the words they don't like.

The Pentecostals will take the words they don't like and avoid the words they don't like. But if everyone speaks in tongues, they will throw away the words they don't like. What about you? I hope you take every word of scripture.

Otherwise, let me tell you, the tests are more difficult than you. Jesus Christ said all that they tell you to do, do. I want the Lord to say that about me and my teaching. I say, Lord, can you tell people to do everything that I teach them?

Everything. Then I'm okay. But, I can still be a Pharisee. But, I can still be a Pharisee. Because that is not enough. Here's a second certificate. Pharisees. Verse 25. In the middle of that verse, you Pharisees, you clean the outside of the cup.

Inside is all dirty. That means the external life is absolutely clean. Now, if the Lord said to you, your external life is absolutely clean, is that a good certificate or not? You don't smoke, you don't drink, you don't gamble, you don't go to the movies.

You don't commit adultery. Externally, your life is clean. I think that's a very good certificate. I don't think the Lord can give that certificate to many Christians. Your external life is absolutely clean.

Not what people can see. But also the other parts of your external life which only the Lord can see. My external life. So, what are the two things the Pharisees had which were good? Their doctrine was absolutely right.

They did not add or subtract from the scriptures. And their external life was absolutely clean. So, if you have these two qualities, you can still be a Pharisee. And that is not genuine holiness. Do you recognize that?

I have a fear that many people in our CFC churches glory in these two things. We follow the scriptures exactly. We have a balanced understanding of everything in the scriptures. It may be true, good. Secondly, we say our external testimony is very good.

Secondly, you say our external testimony is very good. Nobody complains that we cheat others or borrow and don't return money. Nobody complains that we take people to court or create problems for others.

We don't go around speaking evil of others. Our external life is clean. Our doctrine is right. With these two things, have some of you gloried that I am a holy person? These are essential. My doctrine must be right.

My external life must be clean. But there is one more thing that I need which will deliver me from Pharisees. That is our inside of the cup must be clean. Like I said, not deliverance from anger in the tongue, but deliverance from anger in the heart.

So among all of us sitting here, if your doctrine is right, and your external life is clean, please say to yourself, I might still be a Pharisee. Let me examine myself and see whether my inner life is also clean.

The Holy Spirit's Power for Inner Transformation

It's very easy to be deceived. You know when God filled me again with the Holy Spirit 41 years ago, before that I had a period of a double life. From the time I was born again, for 16 years, my external life was clean.

My doctrines were right. Nobody could say anything against my external life all those years. In relation to money or women or anything. And nobody could point out a wrong doctrine. I studied the scripture carefully.

But my inner life inside of my cup was dirty. I never knew in those days that still made me a Pharisee. But I was so fed up of my defeated life. I said, Lord, I am preaching but my inner life inside of the cup is dirty.

And I discovered I could preach powerfully with a dirty cup, inside of the cup dirty. And I got so fed up with it, this is 1974, 42 years ago. I said, Lord, I am going to give up preaching. Because I don't want to be a hypocrite.

I'll go and take a secular job and sit in the back of a church and be a good Christian. I'll go and take a secular job and sit in the back of a church and be a good Christian. But I will not preach what is not true in my life.

Unless you do one thing for me. You got to fill me with the Holy Spirit. I had already experienced a fullness of the Spirit before. But I had gone back. And I said, Lord, you got to fill me again. And lead me higher than I am being so far.

And I said, Lord, I ask you for only one thing. Only one thing. I don't want anything in the world. I don't want money, I don't want honor. I don't even want a ministry. Only one thing. That my inner life will correspond with what I am speaking.

That my inner life will be as clean as my outer life. That I can invite anyone to come inside my thoughts or into my heart and see what my inner life is like. Invite anyone to come to my home and see how I behave there.

Or talk to my wife or anything. Or invite anyone to come and see my finances and see how I handle money. In other words, I want to be like transparent glass where you can see right through. Most people are not like transparent glass.

They are like this frosted glass where you can't see very clearly inside. That's not a true Christian. I am a true Christian. It must be a plain glass with nothing inside that I am ashamed of. I said, if you do that for me, Lord, I will continue to preach.

Otherwise, I am quitting. I was desperate. I would fast and pray and really seek God for the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I am very sad to see that hunger and thirst for the fullness of the Holy Spirit is not there in many of us.

The church was born not through a lot of preaching but through the baptism in the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost, it was not some new teaching that planted the church but the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

When I go back 41 years ago to when CFC Bangalore started, it was through two of us brothers baptized in the Holy Spirit the church was born. Many of the teachings of overcoming sin and the new covenant life came afterwards.

That did not come first. The first was the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Today I find many people in our churches, they understand about new covenant. They understand about victory over sin. They understand about building the body of Christ.

Understanding is clear. But the anointing of the Holy Spirit is missing. It is like a polished lamp without oil. There is no light in the lamp. It is like a building completed. Light fittings are all there but electricity power has not been connected yet.

That is exactly how many believers in our churches are. Washing machine is there. Dishwasher is there. Computer is there. Television set is there. All the electronic gadgets are there. Unlike other denominations where some of these gadgets are missing.

But what is the advantage? There is no power here, there is no power there. What is the advantage if there is no power? Sometimes we look at other churches and say, you don't have that tool, we have it.

That is what they say. Like an electronic tool, like an instruction, like an electronic tool. Your computer is an old computer. We have got the latest washing machine. What is the use of all that? If there is no electric power, there is no difference between this church and any other church which has no gadgets, no doctrines.

Valuing Jesus' Presence Above Gifts and Doctrines

When the Lord said to Moses, Jesus will go with you. To me, in the New Testament, that is the constant fullness of the Holy Spirit. Because it is the Spirit of God that brings the presence of Jesus to us.

If I am filled with the Holy Spirit, Jesus is with me and I am aware of it. It is not just that I have gifts. Gifts are an extra. Like Paul said, I thank God I speak in tongues. And I thank God he has given me a gift to preach the word.

But if the presence of Jesus is not there, I don't value these things. I will give up these things any day to have the presence of Jesus. Lord, I am willing to give up speaking in tongues. I am willing to give up my preaching gift.

I am even willing to give up health and money and everything. I don't want to lose the presence of Jesus. Do you long for the presence of Jesus like that? Then you will have him. That is what Moses said.

Lord, I am not interested in just defeating the Canaanites, the Hittites and the Amorites. I am not interested in a land flowing with milk and honey. I am not even interested in seeing an angel. You know, today there are many people who say, I was praying and I saw an angel.

And they testify about that. Somebody else testifies they saw two angels. I am not saying I saw two angels. We don't know because the devil comes like an angel of light also. So, maybe two devils they saw.

I am not excited by these things. The presence of Jesus. Not even my heart burning like those disciples on the road to Emmaus. But to see our eyes opened and to see Jesus. When we get to heaven, I am not going to find out whether all my doctrines were right.

I will be longing to see Jesus when I get there. I am not going to go and find out Lord, this thing I preached, was it correct or not? And then some people glory and how many people they brought to Christ.

I have no interest in that. The presence of Jesus, value that more than anything else. See one Old Testament man who had this New Testament attitude. Psalm 73. His name was Asaf. Have you heard of him?