Are UFO’s and aliens a part of the occult?

And we're back with Dr. Mark Clark. Dr. Mark Clark, thank you so much for coming back. You've got a very long title, but basically you're in national security for 30 years and you keep coming back onto the podcast to talk about first Daniel and then Daniel politics.

And now we're going to talk about that teaser that you dropped in episode one. I'm sorry, our first episode together when we talked about UFOs. Why are we talking about UFOs.

On a Christian podcast, Dr. Clark? Well, that's a good question. Um, I mean, so at least 50 of 70 of Gen Z and millennials believe alien life exists. I mean, if you look at population surveys, so it's widespread, that belief, many, yeah, many scientists, um, are hoping there's life out there.

Um, they're actually, you know, if you look at NASA, a lot of the scientists are spending money on search for extraterrestrial life. So it's, it's a relevant topic, um, but it's even more relevant if you think, and some people do, that we're being visited by these alien life forms.

UFOs, UAPs, and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life

Yeah. In our first episode,.

You said, what'd you say? We're being visited, but they're not friendly, which has given.

Me nightmares. Well, when we get to the resolution of this, and if so, when we get to the resolution, I would say the vast majority of things that we're going to talk about today are so far naturally occurring phenomena that are misidentified, but I'll, I'll explain what I mean by that.

Um, but there is this residual, uh, element of UFO phenomena and we call our project, the R-UFO hypothesis, residual UFO, um, unidentified flying objects. Now let me just change topic real quickly. Today we talk about in terms of what they call UAPs, U-A-P, and it means it's, the term has changed over time because of some things we'll talk about, unidentified.

Anomalous phenomena. Okay. Meaning? That's not just like a politically correct way of.

Saying UFO. That's like a very specific version. Well, I think there's, if there's politics for it, it's because part of the effort to kind of understand what's going on is twofold. One, a lot of citations or sightings of these things have occurred around military bases, particularly in US Navy pilots, but not exclusively.

Um, it's, it's occurred worldwide since about 1945. So, but, but there is a stigma attached to that term UFO. If you say, Oh, I've seen UFOs, people have one of two reactions. One, Oh, tell me about it.

I believe in them. You know, I've seen them. I know them. Or like, what are you, a knucklehead? You know, what's going on here? So, so they want to de-stigmatize it. So the political side is yes, it's, it's, it's less a hot, a trigger warning, trigger button.

Right? So that's one part of it. The other part, which is I think more serious is that the anomalous part is it occurs across domains. It occurs underwater. Sometimes can cross out of water. Yes. It can occur in space and everything else.

So that's why they call it anomalous. And what they mean by anomalous, meaning it doesn't seem to conform to the laws of physics. I see. So, so unidentified anomalous phenomena, phenomena that occurs that's kind of odd, different, but it's beyond just airspace.

And the reason why this is important, the real first modern wave of UFO sightings began in 1947 with a pilot by the name of Keith Kenneth Arnold. He was flying near Mount Rainier 19, I think July. And he saw seven or nine disc shaped objects that flew faster than he could faster than jets could.

And they weren't yet developed. And that began the modern wave. And then later, of course, Roswell, you know, area 51 and yeah, everything else flew. So,.

Creation, General Revelation, and the Christian Worldview

So there's this... Before we get too deep into it, because I know you've got a lot to say about this. I want to wrap it back to why we're entertaining this topic as a whole. And I think it's because we kind of, we get very earth centric and we skip over the fact that, you know, God created the heavens and the earth.

And I think that we get really limited to the heavens are the clouds that I see right now. But somehow like our brains kind of stop there. We're like, anything beyond the stratosphere is free game when it comes to religion or beliefs or physics or laws.

But I think it is important to really open our Christian minds to these ideas of, you know, for in him, all things were created. I'm reading Colossians 116, things in heaven and on earth visible and invisible, which to me has always been chalked up to like demons and spirits and ghosts.

But maybe that means like physics and gravity, you know, that light in some, in some sense of the word and black holes and, you know, pressure, whatever it might be, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.

So yeah, maybe thrones, but all things have been created through him and for him. So I, uh, I'm interested to hear, you know, for you, who's such an expert on this topic, because you've spent 30 years of your life discussing this from a national security perspective and then, you know, becoming a man of faith and studying Daniel on the word, how these things might overlap and correlate and how, you know, Christianity really does reach the ends of the universe.

Cause we've, we talked a lot with Hugh Ross on the development of the Big Bang and if God created the Big Bang, why is Christianity just on earth? You know what I mean?

Yeah. So that, that's actually a great entree because I would say that although I'm an expert on the national security phenomena side, I'm not an expert on physics and astronomy. So that really is up to Hugh.

And in fact, I will just mention if for anyone interested, we wrote coauthored a book with Kenneth Samples, Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and I wrote a book called Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men.

Um, it was published in 2002 and we wanted to offer a rational Christian perspective on, uh, extraterrestrials and UFO phenomena. And, uh, and there's How did that even start? Like who, who started that book?

Well, that was, you know, I'm not sure who in the ministry, reasons to believe ministry started the idea, but actually it may have been my wife. Come to think of it. Um, now that I think of it, cause she's the one that said, this will be a great book, it'll be a great book.

So we actually collaborated over the period of like a year and a half or two to produce it. Um, the, the name though, wasn't our name. It was the publisher wanted something sexy. And so that kind of happens a lot.

We don't have control over some things. Um, but, but the idea behind that was to try to look at all the evidence that we had at that time from a physics perspective, from Hugh's ministry perspective. He's had extensive experience dealing with people who were involved in the occult and witchcraft.

Um, Oh, I didn't know that. Oh yeah. He, he's, he was a minister of evangelism and he would go door to door in he'd go to witches covens and talk to them. And so he had a lot of experience on a personal ministry side.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

An astrophysicist in witch covens. You never know my bingo card.

No, you just don't think of it that way. Right. But that was his job was to do. And he did a lot of door to door. He said, look, or one of his co-ministry partners said, if you really want to get serious about evangelism, and he was at Caltech at the time, you need to go out and see what people actually think.

Not what you think other scientists think. What do real people think? So it was really good advice for him. So Hugh gives the physics side of it, the constraints of the laws of physics, why travel time travel is not possible and why inner planetary or intergalactic travel is unheard of impossible.

I mean, anyway, I don't want to go over what he did, but he does a lot of stuff on that. And then Kenneth samples is a philosopher, theologian, and he did a lot of research on the occult. So his parts was to explore some of the cultic and occultic ideology behind the UFO craze.

And there is some, not all of it, but some of it. Have you ever heard the Arantia book? Supposedly this was a book. It was supposed to be the, biblical encyclopedia galactica, the knowledge of the universe given to a person through a steady stream of information.

But what's interesting, yeah, the Arantia, U-R-A-N-T-I-A. That was like a cult? Well, some people think it's true that he got this messenger message from intergalactic aliens. The problem is at least fully a third of it, if not more, is dedicated to denying the divinity of Jesus Christ, which I find very interesting.

And half of it denies the laws of physics. Oh, so what's left? Mythology. Yeah. So it's out there. And the other tie-in that we'll have towards the end of this, I hope we'll get to it, is that as Christians, we may know people that have either an unhealthy interest in it or have seen UFO phenomena.

And how can we talk to or people who, so we have what we call an apologetic, a reason for the hope that's in us. How do we help a person that's willing to learn, because you can't force anyone to learn anything, but how is a person who might have genuine questions, how can we respond with gentleness and respect to them in this process and give them information?

Yeah, we kind of keep finding.

Areas where it's very unique to bring Christianity into it. I'm not going to talk about faith in government, but that's what our whole last episode was about. And now this, when I'm talking about conspiracy theories, how do you talk about Jesus too?

Yeah, that's true. Well,.

What I like about that is if we keep it grounded, grounded in facts and the facts of the Bible and facts of life, you know, we believe, we Christians, we in the ministry of reasons believe that there's really two large books of God's word, the Bible, 66 books of written word, which is special revelation.

And then general revelation that is the laws of physics, the physical constraints of the universe. And those two will always agree. They will not disagree.

Interesting. So you don't think it's conflicting to be a Christian with the Bible and then a.

Scientist with physics? Not at all. No, actually complimentary. It absolutely compliments. Yeah. Okay. So, and that's a conversation you could have with Hugh or some of the other scientists that reasons to believe some point.

How does it compliment? The whole scientific revolution in the US or in the West, I should say, began with Christians. Isaac Newton and others were all Christian. They all had a worldview that was informed.

And the basic idea is that if we have the mind to reason, we can infer cause and effect from a God that gave us the image of God, the Imago Dei, then we can, then the two are not going to be incompatible.

They're going to be cause and effect. Romans talks about it. What's known about God is evident in nature, such that people can draw, infer reasonable conclusions about the nature of God's power, divine characteristics.

Paul talks about that. But you need special revelation to get into more specifics. You know, who is the Redeemer? Why did he come? If you look at the book of Job, Job intimates there's a Redeemer, but he had no book of the Bible to refer to.

So he was learning and growing in his process of talking with his friends through his suffering. He was learning about God and about the Redeemer that would come and pull him out to testify on his.

Behalf. Right, right, right. That's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah. You don't think about the people that you're reading about in the Bible are also kind of doing it for the first time. They don't have any guidance other than, you know, their previous beliefs, but really just experiencing God and figuring it out at the same time.

Because I can't imagine that anything they believed prior, like a Babylonian belief, is going to really educate them with a brand new God,.

Essentially. Right. Yeah, exactly. Wow. I didn't think about that. That's okay. Well, that's a topic for Job down the road. I mean, if you look at all the interactions between Job and particularly his three friends, you know, they don't learn.

Their understanding of God is kind of like a modern prosperity gospel. If you do this, you will prosper. If you're not prospering, you've sinned. And Job's saying, no, I have never sinned. But in that way, he gets to a point where he starts saying, hey, there's a Redeemer.

Someone will justify me. So he's still learning. And it could have been by visions. We don't know. So there's this learning that Job does, his three friends.

Don't. So anyway, that's the topic for another time, too. No, no, we're covering Job soon with Dr. Walton, I believe. John Walton is coming back on, and he's within the network.

So this is very timely. Wow. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I guess, yeah, absolutely. So I would say that, you know, a lot of the research we did for the 2002 book, Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men, still hold.

Nothing we have seen contradicts any of our main findings from that book. In fact, they affirm our hypotheses even more so. But I'll let you start. You can ask questions. I don't know if that's a good start or where you want to go from here.

Yeah, I mean, I'm so.

UFO Evidence, Military Reports, and the Limits of Physics

Not educated on this at all. So I think like a really good transition for this would be, I mean, I think it's interesting to know that A, God created the heavens and the earth, and that's the entry point for me in Christianity.

The fact that it might be related to the occult is a stretch that you got to take me on that journey, because I would not understand how you got there at all. To me, it's just another evolved life form that we have yet to discover, the same way we maybe haven't found a species of a rainforest.

And kind of, you know, the spiritual and physical beings are, are these spiritual beings, sorry, are these physical beings, you know, is this something that's attacking us and pulling us away from God?

Is this something that is causing our country tangible danger? And like I said, you're the expert here. I don't know that much. But I did see that David Grush testimony where he was under oath talking about how we do have biologicals that we can reference.

I mean, this is just me speaking as like a general population person. Guide me on this. How can I navigate something we literally cannot fathom? And how does that impact me either physically or.

Spiritually? I guess. Yeah. Okay. So that's loaded question. There's multiple parts to it. So we can pull it apart here a little bit. David Grush's testimony was interesting. It made the headlines, everyone looked at it.

But he made some claims that just were not supported by him. His basic claim was that we've had a program to reverse engineer alien craft for since the 1930s, actually. That's a widespread conspiracy that's on the internet.

It's a lot of people, a number of people hold, I would say a lot, but a number of people hold it. He worked for the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which is the major agency of the Air Force that manages all of our classified spacecraft and satellites.

And he even said in testimony, he was not read into the program, but someone told him that we had this program. Okay. But that's not a fact. That's a rumor. That's secondhand. There's a lot of aloofness in that testimony.

And then he said, there are people who were harmed by alien life. And they said, well, who? And he goes, well, I can't really get into that. It's classified. So here he is, a guy with the classified, he's classified.

He's not allowed to talk about what he's talking about. And he's saying, yes, I have proof, but I can't give it to you because it's classified. It was complete contradiction. So his testimony was at best second, third head evidence.

Now, what's interesting, the new office that's handling all the investigations, this is part of the Department of Defense, it's called the AAR, oh, I'm throwing out acronyms, but I'll try to explain them.

The anomalous, all domain, anomalous resolution office, AAR. What do you mean by all domain? That's because going across from under the water to surface, to aerial, to possibly near space. So wherever we see anomalous phenomena, whichever domain, they are responsible for reporting it, tracking it, trying to understand it, and explaining resolutions to it.

They interviewed a lot of people. Now, they were specifically asked in a testimony this guy gave, the new head of it, Sean Fitzpatrick was the head until I think November, he stepped aside and a new fellow, I can't remember his name, took over.

He testified recently. They said, well, did you interview David Grush? And he said, we're not going to report who we interviewed because we're trying to protect confidentiality. The whole point is to allow people to report, to come and talk to us, to go through the port.

They have a secure portal now. They have ways that you can communicate anonymously, but you have to be willing to be subjected to not cross-examination, but follow-up questions. Because for obvious reasons to really investigate like a crime or anything else, you need to cross-check everything.

So I don't know if David Grush actually did that. He clearly testified in Congress publicly because he wrote an op-ed piece about it, which would have violated his classified standing, but I don't know where that's led.

I don't know if he reported. I don't think he went up the chain of command. There's reporting procedures. What I like about what the Department of Defense's AARO is doing is you can go to their website and look this stuff up.

You just type in Department of Defense AARO, and you'll find they have a website and they talk about their mission, their tasks, their imagery they've captured, the resolutions they found, the reports, and it's done through a technique of intelligence analysis, whether they have a resolution or not.

All of those images fall within the 1 of proven phenomena that you're referencing?

It's over 90%. Yeah, certainly over 90 so far, because this is modern. Just to give a little history, the Air Force was assigned back in 49, 50, and through the 60s through a program, Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book to evaluate incoming UFO reports.

They kept finding the same thing we're seeing today, which is they would go and resolve it. Out of over 12 ,000 cases, they had only 700 they could not explain, but they could explain the other 11 ,000 plus.

In other words, it was either a sensor malfunction, misidentification. Well, this is happening again with the AARO, and you can tell they're trying to be super transparent because of lack of trust.

Hold on, hold on. My brain. Okay, sorry. My Celsius hasn't kicked in yet. You're saying that they have looked at 11 ,000 scenarios of a flying object, and 11 ,000 are majority. They could explain as like a light refraction or a drone or a plane, but 700 could not explain.

Could not be explained. Defied physics, an object they've never seen.

Well, it may have appeared to defy physics. Let me give you an example. In 2014 to 15, this has gotten all the attention and news. This and a political report in 2017, I'm giving you a lot here, but feel free to pick it apart.

A couple of Navy pilots were doing training and they observed what they observed to be was something that's traveling faster than the speed of life. It jumped from 20 ,000 feet to 80 ,000 and back down.

Beyond the laws of physics. They also tracked on radar and they had a sensor for it, and it's called the GOFAST sensor. You could look that one up. It's out there. NASA has actually analyzed it and showed how the actual object was only traveling 40 miles an hour.

It was a probably a bag or a balloon at 14 ,000 feet that was following the prevailing winds. And this is what NASA is really good about. They can point out what the sensor looked like it saw versus what it actually saw.

So they resolved that. And we have much more advanced technologies now. Well, part of the problem for things that are unresolved is our military aircraft are not designed to look for UAPs. They're designed to look for enemy targets.

Right. So when you see something that's behaving oddly, or, you know, there's even good videos on this ARO site that show looks like a ball, just, I mean, cruising through space. They can't resolve it, but it doesn't behave anomalous phenomena.

It's not disobeying the laws of physics. So whatever it was, there's no resolution to it, but it's not anomalous. It's not disobeying the laws of physics. And that's, that's the big claim with a UFO, UAPs.

The big claim is this is alien technology. It can defy the laws of physics. Otherwise they couldn't get here from interstellar spaces. So we need to see extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. And so far, none have been proven to be alien yet.

None. None. None. What? So they're just unexplained, but they're not proven is what you're saying. Correct. Yeah. I mean, the scientific methodology. So a lot of UFO enthusiasts study it with varying degrees of rigor.

And what I mean by that is the most natural thing we do is if we, if we want to believe something, we will look for and find it. Right. It's what we call a hypothesis confirming bias. Science is advanced by trying to disconfirm things.

So for example, NASA's mission is to disprove the idea that this phenomenon behaves naturally or by technology. So it's called the null hypothesis. So it's why we can go to moon and come back. Why we can travel distances across the galaxy.

I mean, without that kind of rigor, we, you know, we just jump and then fall out, you know, land on the second, down 20 feet below from gravity. Right. So good science develops, trying to avoid our cognitive biases are our preferences by trying to develop null hypotheses.

Don't worry about that term. It's just, they try to disprove one thing. And like Sherlock Holmes, when everything else is ruled, I got Sherlock Holmes's quote here somewhere. It's great. And it's, it's his kind of way of thinking.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever else remains, however, improbable.

Must be the truth. I'm still stuck on. It hasn't been proven because I know that in, again, this is like me hearing things. So, you know, it is what it is, but like David Grush, I think he, or at least he went on Joe Rogan and they were talking about it.

And it was like certain levels of radiation were only existing in these one areas where like a UAP was being monitored or observed. So is that like circumstances of mass radiation or lack of gravity or just something that can't be explained, but they still happen.

So I guess in your like classification of nothing's been proven, still weird stuff has happened though. Like that doesn't rule out that.

No, no. In fact, I would say that you could expect, I mean, one of the characteristics of UFO in our book, and still today, you have, we haven't seen this yet, but I bet we will, is that UFOs leave no artifacts, meaning physical objects, but they can have a physical effect.

So UFOs don't leave any artifacts. So like. So supposedly they crash landed a saucer, but there's no wreckage to pick up. Right. It's claimed that we have wreckage or holding it area 51 and all that. But if you look at all, no, not yet.

No, no. What do you think? Advanced military, uh, you know, drone warfare, uh, electronic warfare. We've been doing this for years. The SR 71 Blackbird, the, uh, stealth fighter, the B2 bomber, they were all tested Nellis air force range.

Uh, and I've driven out, not there, not intentionally, but near the area. And I can tell you, I've seen some pretty funny things. So, uh, cruise missiles,.

What do you mean funny? Like aircraft wise, or like you said, floating while you were in your.

Car, like to find funny. Okay. So I'll give you two examples. Um, one time at we go, I go hunting with a bunch of my friends at a place called Kelso Valley. It's near China lake. So you have, um, Edwards air base Palmdale where Lockheed Martin skunk works is Eric Edwards, air force China lake.

And then further inland is area 51. And one night, because I'd written the book, my buddy's called, Hey, Mark, Mark, come out here and look at this. And we're watching this giant, giant, I mean, it looked like four to six story tall elevator shaft.

You couldn't see it because it was dark, but you could see the lights, um, flying around and you can hear it as making this large circle around our area. And it was followed by four to six fighter jets for protection.

It was an elevator shaft. Well, no, I'm saying just the lights of it look like an elevator. That's the only kind of recognizable thing. In other words, I couldn't recognize it. It was too big for a regular aircraft, but it was being followed by fighter jets.

And at one point it broke up into three distinct things and kept flying around and then came back and joined together. I couldn't explain it. They're all saying, Hey, is this one of your I said, I have no idea.

Um, so it could just be like very advanced, very advanced technology. Yeah. The other one was happened in 2016. We're going to my wife's cousin's house for Thanksgiving and we're driving towards Laguna beach.

I don't know if you know, Southern California, it's sort of Southwest and out in the sky, you would come up over the hill and we're going into Orange County and out in the sky there looked like there's laser beam, a blue light, but it was only, you know, like this big, but I didn't, couldn't tell you can't tell distances as dark out.

And I'm looking at, I'm thinking, Oh my, we're going to get a bunch of UFO reports. And sure enough, that's what the FAA recommends. If you see something weird in the sky, call local police, turn on the news.

And we're hearing all these reports going off about UFOs. And I said, no, no, no, no. And then all of a sudden it burst to a big giant blue scattered ball. And it's like, no, we live close to Vandenberg air force base, but that's North of us.

So we tend to see when rockets go off from Vandenberg, either SpaceX or missile launches. But this was, this was in a different area. So I had no explanation. Turns out the Navy was testing at submarine launched ballistic missiles from San Clemente Island.

So again, just because you see something, it's interesting, but it may not be accurate. And so those are two examples. I've seen others, but those are the two examples that stand out the most. One, I still can't explain, except that my friend did say he did read reports that we are finding ways to build aircraft that can disassemble and reassemble a flight.

I've never seen that. So I can't prove,.

Say that that's accurate. So I don't know. So you feel like you've seen one?

I've seen advanced military technology being tested. I'm convinced of that. I've seen cruise missiles flying overhead at 600 feet just above us. You know, a cruise missile that comes in from the ocean towards China Lake.

Yeah. I've, we've seen a lot of things. This is California.

Yeah. Right. Right. So you're saying that like there probably isn't aliens out there. Cause I feel like, you know, in the grandiosity of our God, why stop at earth? I don't think it's too far fetched to think that there's other creation out there, especially when we like expand his creation to be on earth.

Why would only life be here? But you're just saying we haven't seen proof of it or like, how do we, what is the, you know, the non governmental weapon warfare what's left? What, what are we left with here that we need to consider?

Let me address your first point. Okay. Cause there could be alien life, but the constraints of physics do not allow for interstellar travel. Hugh Ross has found research that they've shown you couldn't even fit a termite in a, in a device to fly at interstellar speeds.

It just wouldn't survive. But so there's a whole bunch of that. And there's a whole bunch of research going into techno signatures, trying to find signs of alien life. And on many occasions, what they thought would be a sign of alien life turns out to be a pulsar or a, or a star that has a broken up like rings like Jupiter or Saturn rings broken up around that makes the pulses oscillate, looks like a technological signature.

So they're actually pursuing techno signatures, but we, so the constraints of physics are such that that alien life that could exist, hasn't made it here. 10 astronomer or six astronomers that we talk about in our book who had over 10 years of observation each said, if there is travel, it's through an interdimensional hypothesis, meaning it has to do something other than the laws of physics would allow for.

And these are folks that had a lot of observation time and they paid attention to the UFO phenomenon insofar as they were required to. So this is that the biblical book and the laws of physics complimenting each other.

Complement each other. Right. So let's go back. Who, who are, who, who are these aliens? Well, or let's put it this way again, if 99 plus percent can be proven to be physical objects that are just misidentified, miscalibrated, misunderstood, but if 99 is identified, so instead of UAP, it's now IP, identified phenomena.

There is still this small residual that is unidentified and likely remain. It could just.

Be that we haven't figured out how to identify it. So the technology is just more open-minded,.

I want to say. Yeah. I mean, well, they're having to figure out, so this is the problem, NASA and both point out all of our equipment's designed to detect things that we know, not things we don't know.

Right. So we have to figure out ways to get around that. And that's what all good science does is eventually tries to say, okay, we don't know what this is. Can we develop new technology or new ways of doing technology that it can help us identify this?

So this Gremlin device is supposed to be a mobile platform that they're testing in Texas to known UAS or UAP sites. And what they're finding so far is a lot of bat and birds in the sky. But they want to test it and prove the technology and then provide it because if it's a threat, if it's a military threat that some people have claimed, and that's why the Senate's funding AARO and NASA's involvement, if it's a real threat, we want to be able to identify it.

But so far, we haven't been able to. And it's, I don't want to give you the technology, but it's multispectral. So supposedly a lot of these UAPs behave in ways they can accelerate without any visible means of propulsion.

They can hover without effects on the ground. So how is this possible? Well, that's why they're trying to get this new technology. But let me go back to that earlier comment I made. While they don't leave artifacts, these UFOs so far, they do leave physical effects.

Now, this is interesting because people that have gone out and investigated have found where supposedly a cross-saucer hovered in a certain area, not UAPs yet, but a cross-saucer landed on the ground by a farm.

They could actually witness the ground deform by the presence of some kind of electromagnetic radiation. What you talked about, this, that signature that Grush and others had talked about. Let me go back to a comment we talked about last time we were on.

I gave you that example of, no, no, remember that I challenged you and you felt the effects in your body. That's my mind using my voice to cause a spiritual or physical effect on your body. The demonic realm, the angelic realm, then the physical real, but non-physical realm.

Okay. So the dominions, powers, principalities, thrones that you quoted earlier from Ephesians, they are created angelic beings or celestial beings, some of whom are loyal to God and some of whom are hostile to God.

They can have a physical effect. If you look at any of the prophets in the Old Testament, Ezekiel, Elijah, Elisha, they saw phenomenal stuff and they were credible witnesses to incredible phenomena. Daniel himself met certain celestial beings that when he saw it, it caused his friends to faint.

He fainted and had to be revived. So celestial beings, which are a different plane of existence, they're real, but non-physical, they can affect us. They can have spiritual effects on us, either for good or for ill.

So this is where we talk about the R-UFO hypothesis. What we have observed is that, and you particularly see it with two groups of people who are most heavily involved in the belief in UFOs, the group called contactees, people who believe they've been contacted by alien life, or abductees, those who believe they've been taken up and probed.

Well, what's really, and this is where Ken Samples' work comes in handy, he points out that almost all of them demonstrate a long-lasting spiritual, psychological, physical harm from their exposure to it, and almost harm, physical harm, and almost all of them are into the occult or into cultic beliefs.

Yes. Before, so they were kind of already.

In that realm. And they're still in it, yeah. Is there any, like, I was just sitting in my bed and an alien contacted me and I suddenly went from Presbyterian to Satanic? Or it's like you were in.

It, you were inviting it into your soul. Well, there's, we call it open doors to the occult, meaning you don't even have to be actively involved, meaning you could have done tarot cards when you're a kid, or done a levitation or a seance, or read horoscopes.

I haven't, but that is like.

So beginner level entry. It is. Oh gosh. So it's, so in Deuteronomy talks about it, whenever you.

Seek power outside the source of divine power, God, you are committing an act of rebellion, and it's it's punishable. It's a sin that's being punished. So what you do is by doing that, we see it in the Old Testament where Saul, King Saul, tried to open himself up to a medium.

These things are not benign. They are malign. And we see this with our UFO hypothesis. Some people have open doors to the occult, and need to be encouraged to repent of that, to give it up. Now, even people who are innocent that don't have open, you know, that don't personally have an open door to the occult, like they didn't participate in any of that, can be affected by it, by location.

And Hugh gives a really good example. He, when he was in Sirimadri, he was, like I said, the minister of evangelism, was asked to go to this house, and they had a poltergeist going on. And these were really good Christians.