Are UFO’s and aliens a part of the occult?

Biblically Speaking

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And we're back with Dr. Mark Clark, Dr. Mark Clark, thank you so much for coming back. You've got a very long title, but basically you're a national security for 30 years.

00:09

And you keep coming back onto the podcast to talk about first Daniel and then Daniel politics.

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And now we're going to talk about that teaser that you dropped in episode one. I'm sorry, our first episode together, when we talked about UFOs, why are we talking about UFOs on a

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Christian podcast, Dr. Clark? Well that's a good question. I mean, so at least 50 % of, 70 % of Gen Z and millennials believe alien life exists.

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I mean, if you look at population surveys, so it's widespread that belief, many scientists are hoping there's life out there.

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They're actually, you know, if you look at NASA, a lot of the scientists are spending money on search for extraterrestrial life.

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So it's, it's a relevant topic, but it's even more relevant if you think, and some people do, that we're being visited by these alien life forms.

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Yeah. In our first episode, you said, what'd you say? We're being visited, but they're not friendly, which has given me nightmares.

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Well, when we get to the resolution of this and if, so when we get to the resolution,

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I would say the vast majority of things that we're going to talk about today are so far naturally occurring phenomena that are misidentified, but I'll, I'll explain what

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I mean by that. But there is this residual element of UFO phenomena and we call our project the

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R -UFO hypothesis, residual UFO, unidentified flying objects.

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Now let me just change topic real quickly. Today we talk about in terms of what they call

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UAPs, U -A -P, and it means it's, the term has changed over time because of some things we'll talk about, unidentified anomalous phenomena.

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Meaning? That's not just like a politically correct way of saying UFO. That's like a very specific version. Well, I think there's, if there's politics for it, it's because part of the effort to kind of understand what's going on is twofold.

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One, a lot of citations or sightings of these things have occurred around military bases, particularly in U .S.

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Navy pilots, but not exclusively. It's occurred worldwide since about 1945.

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So, but, but there's a stigma attached to that term UFO. If you say, oh,

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I've seen UFOs, people have one of two reactions. One, oh, tell me about it. I believe in them.

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You know, I've seen them. I know them. Or like, what are you, a knucklehead? You know, what's going on here?

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So, so they want to de -stigmatize it. So the political side is, yes, it's, it's, it's less a hot, a trigger warning, trigger button.

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Right? So that's one part of it. The other part, which is I think more serious, is that the anomalous part is it occurs across domains.

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It occurs underwater, sometimes can cross out of water. Yes. It can occur, it can occur in space and everything else.

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So that's why they call it anomalous. And what they mean by anomalous, meaning it doesn't seem to conform to the laws of physics.

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I see. I see. So, so unidentified anomalous phenomena, phenomena that occurs that's kind of odd, different, but it's beyond just airspace.

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And the reason why this is important, the real first modern wave of UFO sightings began in 1947 with a pilot by the name of Keith Kenneth Arnold.

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He was flying near Mount Rainier, 1940, I think July. And he saw seven or nine disc -shaped objects that flew faster than he could, faster than jets could, and they weren't yet developed.

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And that began the modern wave. And then later, of course, Roswell, you know, Area 51 and everything else flew.

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So, so there's this... Before we get too deep into it, because I know you've got a lot to say about this, I want to wrap it back to why we're entertaining this topic as a whole.

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And I think it's because we kind of, we get very earth -centric and we skip over the fact that, you know,

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God created the heavens and the earth. And I think that we get really limited to the heavens are the clouds that I see right now.

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But somehow, like our brains kind of stop there where like anything beyond the stratosphere is free game when it comes to religion or beliefs or physics or laws.

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But I think it is important to really open our Christian minds to these ideas of, you know, for in him, all things were created.

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I'm reading Colossians 116, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, which to me has always been chalked up to like demons and spirits and ghosts.

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But maybe that means like physics and gravity, you know, that light in some, in some sense of the word and black holes and, you know, pressure, whatever it might be, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.

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So yeah, maybe thrones, but all things have been created through him and for him. So I, I'm interested to hear, you know, for you, who's such an expert on this topic, because you've spent 30 years of your life discussing this from a national security perspective.

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And then, you know, becoming a man of faith and studying Daniel and the word, how these things might overlap and correlate and how, you know,

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Christianity really does reach the ends of the universe, because we've, we talked a lot with Hugh Ross on the development of the

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Big Bang. And if God created the Big Bang, why is Christianity just on earth? You know what I mean? Yeah.

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So that, that's actually a great entree, because I would say that although I'm an expert on the national security phenomena side,

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I'm not an expert on physics and astronomy. So that really is up to Hugh. And in fact,

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I will just mention, if for anyone interested, we wrote, co -authored a book with Kenneth Samples, Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and I wrote a book called

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Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men. It was published in 2002. And we wanted to offer a rational

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Christian perspective on extraterrestrials and UFO phenomena.

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And there's a - How did that even start? Like who, who started that book? Well, that was, you know,

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I'm not sure who in the ministry, Reasons to Believe Ministry started the idea, but actually, it may have been my wife, come to think of it.

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Now that I think of it, because she's the one that said, this will be a great book, it'll be a great book. So we actually collaborated over a period of like a year and a half or two to produce it.

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The name, though, wasn't our name. It was the publisher wanted something sexy. So that kind of happens a lot.

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We don't have control over some things. But, but the idea behind that was to try to look at all the evidence that we had at that time, from a physics perspective, from Hugh's ministry perspective.

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He's had extensive experience dealing with people who were involved in the occult and witchcraft.

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Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. He's he was a minister of evangelism. And he would go door to door in Sirimadri.

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He'd go to witches covens and talk to them. And so he had a lot of experience on a personal ministry side.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. An astrophysicist in witch covens. You never know my bingo card.

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No, you just don't think of it that way. Right. But that was his job was to do. And he did a lot of door to door.

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He said, look, one of his co -ministry partners said, if you really want to get serious about evangelism, and he was at Caltech at the time, you need to go out and see what people actually think, not what you think other scientists think.

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What do real people think? That's a good advice. So it was really good advice for him. So Hugh gives the physics side of it, the constraints of the laws of physics.

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Why travel, time travel is not possible. And why interplanetary or intergalactic travel is unheard of, impossible.

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I mean, anyway, I don't want to go over what he did, but he does a lot of stuff on that.

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And then Kenneth Samples is a philosopher, theologian, and he did a lot of research on the occult.

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So his parts was to explore some of the cultic and occultic ideology behind the

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UFO craze. And there is some, not all of it, but some of it. Have you ever heard of the

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Orantia book? Supposedly this was a book. It was supposed to be the biblical

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Encyclopedia Galactica, the knowledge of the universe given to a person through a steady stream of information.

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But what's interesting, yeah, the Orantia, U -R -A -N -T -I -A, but what's... That was like a cult?

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Well, some people think it's true that he got this messenger message from intergalactic aliens.

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The problem is at least fully a third of it, if not more, is dedicated to denying the divinity of Jesus Christ, which

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I find very interesting. And half of it denies the laws of physics. Oh, so what's left?

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Mythology. So it's out there. And the other tie in that we'll have towards the end of this,

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I hope we'll get to it, is that as Christians, we may know people that have either an unhealthy interest in it or have seen

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UFO phenomena. And how can we talk to them? Or people who... So we have what we call an apologetic, a reason for the hope that's in us.

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How do we help a person that's willing to learn, because you can't force anyone to learn anything, but how is a person who might have genuine questions, how can we respond with gentleness and respect to them in this process and give them information?

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Yeah, we kind of keep finding areas where it's very unique to bring Christianity into it.

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Like, I'm not going to talk about faith in government, but that's what our whole last episode was about.

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And now this, when I'm talking about conspiracy theories, how do you talk about Jesus, too?

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Yeah, that's true. Well, what I like about that is if we keep it grounded, grounded in facts and the facts of the

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Bible and the facts of life, you know, we believe, we Christians, we in the Ministry of Reasons, believe there's really two large books of God's word.

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The Bible, 66 books of written word, which is special revelation, and then general revelation, that is the laws of physics, the physical constraints of the universe.

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And those two will always agree. They will not disagree. Interesting. So you don't think it's conflicting to be a

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Christian with the Bible and then a scientist with physics? Not at all. No, actually, it absolutely complements.

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Yeah, yeah. Oh, OK. So so and that's a conversation you could have with Hugh or some of the other scientists that reasons to believe some point.

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How does it complement the whole scientific revolution in the US or in the West, I should say, began with Christians.

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Isaac Newton and others were all Christian. They all had a worldview that was informed. And the basic idea is that if we have the mind to reason, we can infer cause and effect from a

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God that gave us the image of God, the imago Dei, then we can then the two are not going to be incompatible.

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They're going to be cause and effect. Romans talks about it. The what's what's known about God is evident in nature such that people can draw, infer reasonable conclusions about the nature of God's power, divine characteristics.

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Paul talks about that. But you need special revelation to get into more specifics.

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You know, who is the redeemer? Why did he come? If you look at the book of Job, Job intimates there's a redeemer, but he had no book of the

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Bible to refer to. So he was learning and growing in his process of talking with his friends through his suffering.

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He was learning about God and about the redeemer that would come and pull them out to testify on his behalf.

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Right, right, right. That's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah, you don't think about the people that you're reading about in the

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Bible are also kind of doing it for the first time. They don't have any guidance other than, you know, their previous beliefs, but really just experiencing

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God and figuring it out at the same time, because I can't imagine that anything they believed prior, like a

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Babylonian belief, is going to really educate them with a brand new God, essentially. Right.

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Yeah, exactly. Wow. I didn't think about that. That's OK. Well, that's a topic for Job down the road.

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I mean, if you look at all the interactions between Job and particularly his three friends, you know, they don't learn.

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Their understanding of God is kind of like a modern prosperity gospel.

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If you do this, you will prosper. If you're not prospering, you've sinned. And Job's saying, no,

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I have never sinned. And so but in that way, he gets to a point where he starts saying, hey, there's a redeemer.

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Someone will justify me. So he's still learning. And it could have been like visions.

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We don't know. So there's this learning that Job does. His three friends don't. So anyway, that's the topic for another time, too.

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No, no, we're covering Job soon with Dr. Walton, I believe.

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John Walton is coming back on and he's within the network. So this is very timely. Wow. OK, OK, OK.

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So I guess. Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that, you know, a lot of the research we did for the 2002 book

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Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men still hold. If nothing we have seen contradicts any of our main findings from that book.

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In fact, they affirm our hypotheses even more so. So but but I'll let you start.

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You can ask questions. I don't know if that it's a good start or where you want to go from here. Yeah, I mean, am

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I I'm so not educated on this at all. So I think like a really good transition for this would be.

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I mean, I think it's interesting to know that, A, God created the heavens and the earth.

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And that's the entry point for me in Christianity. The fact that it might be related to the occult is a stretch that you got to take me on that journey, because I would not understand how you got there at all to me.

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It's just another evolved life form that we have yet to discover the same way we maybe haven't found a species of a rainforest.

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And kind of, you know, the spiritual and physical beings are are these spiritual beings?

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Sorry, are these physical beings? You know, is this something that's attacking us and pulling us away from God?

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Is this something that is causing our country tangible danger? And like I said, you're the expert here.

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I don't know that much, but I did see that David Grush testimony where he was under oath talking about how we do have biologicals that we can reference.

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I mean, this is just me speaking as like a general population person. Yeah. Guide me on this.

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How can I navigate something we literally cannot fathom? And how does that impact me either physically or spiritually,

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I guess? Yeah. OK, so that's a loaded question. There's multiple parts to it.

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So we can pull it apart here a little bit. David Grush's testimony was interesting. It made the headlines.

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Everyone looked at it. But he made some claims that just were not supported by him. His basic claim was that we've had a program to reverse engineer alien craft for since the 1930s, actually.

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That's a widespread conspiracy that's on the Internet. It's a lot of people. A number of people hold,

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I would say a lot, but a number of people hold it. He worked for the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which is the major agency of the

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Air Force that manages all of our classified spacecraft and satellites.

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And he even said in testimony he was not read into the program, but someone told him that we had this program.

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OK, but that's not a fact. That's a rumor. That's secondhand. There's a lot of aloofness in that testimony.

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And then he said there are people who were harmed by alien life. And and they said, well, who?

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And he goes, well, I can't really get into that. It's classified. So here he is, a guy with the classified.

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You know, he's classified. He's not allowed to talk about what he's talking about. And he's saying, yes, I have proof, but I can't give it to you because it's classified.

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Yeah, it was complete contradiction. So his testimony was at best second, third head evidence.

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Now, what's interesting, the new office that's handling all the investigations, this is part of the

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Department of Defense. It's called the AAR. Oh, I'm throwing out acronyms, but I'll try to explain them.

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The anomalous all domain anomalous resolution office. AAR all domain.

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That's because going across from under the water to surface, to aerial, to possibly near space.

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So wherever we see anomalous phenomena, whichever domain, they are responsible for reporting it, tracking it, trying to understand it and explaining resolutions to it.

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They interviewed a lot of people. Now, they were specifically asked in a testimony this guy gave.

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The new head of it, Sean Fitzpatrick, was the head until I think November. He stepped aside of a new fellow.

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I can't remember his name took over. He he testified recently. They said, well, did you interview

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David Grush? And he said, I we're not going to report who we interviewed because we're trying to protect confidentiality.

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The whole point is to allow people to report, to come and talk to us, to to go through the port. They have a secure portal now.

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They have ways that you can communicate anonymously. But you have to be willing to be subjected to not cross examination, follow up questions, because for obvious reasons to really investigate like a crime or anything else, you need to cross check everything.

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Yeah. So I don't know if David Grush actually did that. He clearly testified in Congress publicly because he wrote an op ed piece about it, which would have violated his classified standing.

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But I don't know where that's led. I don't know if he reported. I don't think he went up the chain of command. There's reporting procedures.

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What I like about what the Department of Defense's AARO is doing is you can go to their website and look this stuff up.

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You just type in Department of Defense AARO and you'll find they have a website and they talk about their mission, their tasks, their the imagery they've captured, the resolutions they found, the reports.

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And it's done through a technique of intelligence analysis, whether they have a resolution or not.

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And all of those images fall within the one percent of proven phenomena. Oh, that you're referencing.

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It's over 90 percent. Yeah, certainly over 90 percent so far, because this is modern. Just to give a little history.

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The Air Force was assigned back in 49, 50 and through the 60s through a program

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Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book to evaluate incoming

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UFO reports. And they kept finding the same thing we're seeing today, which is they would go and resolve it out of over 12 ,000 cases.

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They had only 700. They could not explain, but they could explain the other 11 plus thousand. In other words, it was either a sensor malfunction, misidentification.

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Well, this is happening again with the AARO. And you can tell they're trying to be a super transparent because of lack of trust.

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Hold on. Hold on. My brain. OK, sorry. My Celsius hasn't kicked in yet. OK. You're saying that they have looked at 11 ,000 scenarios of a flying object and 11 ,000 are majority.

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They could explain as like a light refraction or a drone or a plane.

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But 700 could not explain. Could not be explained. And like defied physics, an object they've never seen.

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Well, it may have it may have appeared to defy physics. Let me give you an example. In 2014 to 15, this is this has gotten all the attention of news.

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This and a political report in 2017. I'm giving you a lot here, but feel free to pick it apart. A couple of Navy pilots were doing training and they observed what they observed to be was something that's traveling faster than the speed of life.

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It jumped from 20 ,000 feet to 80 ,000 and back down beyond the laws of physics.

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They also tracked on radar and they had sensor forward. And it's called the go fast sensor.

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You could look that one up. It's it's out there. NASA has actually analyzed it and showed how the actual object was only traveling 40 miles an hour.

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It was a probably a bag or a balloon at 14 ,000 feet that was following the prevailing winds.

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And this is what NASA is really good about. They can point out what the sensor looked like.

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It saw versus what it actually saw. So they resolved that. And we have much more advanced technologies now.

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Well, part of the problem for things that are unresolved is our military aircraft are not designed to look for UAPs.

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They're designed to look for enemy targets. Right. So when you see something that's behaving oddly or, you know, there's even good videos on this

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ARO site that show looks like a ball just, I mean, cruising through space, they can't resolve it.

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But it doesn't behave a nominalist phenomena. It's not disobeying the laws of physics. So whatever it was, there's no resolution to it, but it's not anomalous.

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It's not disobeying the laws of physics. And that's that's the big claim with a UFO UAPs.

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The big claim is this is alien technology. It can defy the laws of physics. Otherwise, they couldn't get here from interstellar spaces.

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So we need to see extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. And so far, none have been proven to be alien yet.

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None. None. None. Huh? So they're just unexplained, but they're not proven.

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That's what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, the scientific methodology. So a lot of UFO enthusiasts study it with varying degrees of rigor.

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And what I mean by that is. The most natural thing we do is if we. If we want to believe something, we will look for and find it.

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Right. It's what we call a hypothesis confirming bias. Science is advanced by trying to disconfirm things.

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So, for example, NASA's mission is to disprove the idea that this phenomenon behaves naturally or by technology.

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So it's called a null hypothesis. So it's why we can go to moon and come back, why we can travel distances across the galaxy.

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I mean, without that kind of rigor, we, you know, we just jump and then fall out, you know, land on the second down 20 feet below from gravity.

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Right. So good science develops. Try to avoid our cognitive biases, our our preferences by trying to develop null hypotheses.

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Don't worry about that term. It's just they try to disprove one thing. And like Sherlock Holmes, when everything else is ruled.

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I got Sherlock Holmes's quote here somewhere. It's great. And it's his kind of way of thinking. Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever else remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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I'm still stuck on. It hasn't been proven because I know that in again, this is like me hearing things.

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So, you know, it is what it is. But like David Grush, I think he or at least he went on Joe Rogan and they were talking about it.

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And it was like certain levels of radiation were only existing in these one areas where like a

24:02

UAP was being monitored or observed. So is that like circumstances of mass radiation or a lack of gravity or just something that can't be explained, but they still happen?

24:16

So I guess in your like classification of nothing's been proven, still weird stuff has happened, though, like that doesn't rule out that.

24:25

No, no. In fact, I would say that you could expect. I mean, one of the characteristics of UFO in our book and still today, you have we haven't seen this yet, but I bet we will, is that UFOs leave no artifacts, meaning physical objects, but they can have a physical effect.

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So UFOs don't leave any artifacts. So supposedly they crash landed a saucer, but there's no wreckage to pick up.

24:53

Right. It's claimed that we have wreckage or holding an area 51 and all that, but if you look at all.

24:59

No, no, not yet. No, no. What do you think's the area 51? Advanced military drone warfare, electronic warfare.

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We've been doing this for years. The SR -71 Blackbird, the stealth fighter, the

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B -2 bomber, they were all tested Nellis Air Force Range. And I've driven out, not there, not intentionally, but near the area.

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And I can tell you, I've seen some pretty funny things. So cruise missiles. What do you mean funny?

25:28

Like aircraft wise? Or like you said, floating while you were in your car, like to find funny. OK, so I'll give you two examples.

25:36

One time at we go, I go hunting with a bunch of my friends at a place called Kelso Valley. It's near China Lake.

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So you have Edwards Air Base, Palmdale, where Lockheed Martin Skunk Works is.

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Edwards Air Force Base, China Lake, and then further inland is Area 51. And one night, because I had written the book, my buddies called,

25:56

Hey, Mark, Mark, come out here, look at this. And we're watching this giant, giant. I mean, it looked like four to six story tall elevator shaft.

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You couldn't see it because it was dark, but you could see the lights flying around.

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And you could hear it as making this large circle around our area. And it was followed by four to six fighter jets for protection.

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It was an elevator shaft? Well, no, I'm saying just the lights of it look like an elevator. That's the only kind of recognizable thing.

26:24

In other words, I couldn't recognize it. It was too big for a regular aircraft, but it was being followed by fighter jets.

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And at one point it broke up into three distinct things and kept flying around and then came back and joined together.

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I couldn't explain it. They're all saying, Hey, is this one of your UFO? I said, I have no idea. So it could just be like very advanced, very advanced technology.

26:49

Yeah. The other one was happened in 2016. We're going to my wife's cousin's house for Thanksgiving and we're driving towards Laguna Beach.

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I don't know if you know Southern California. It's sort of southwest and out in the sky. You come up over the hill and we're going into Orange County and out in the sky.

27:06

They look like there's laser beam, a blue light. But it was only, you know, like this big.

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But I couldn't tell. You can't tell distances. It's dark out. And I'm looking at I'm thinking, oh, my, we're going to get a bunch of UFO reports.

27:19

And sure enough, that's what the FAA recommends. If you see something weird in the sky, call local police, turn on the news.

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And we're hearing all these reports going off about UFOs. And I said, no, no, no, no. And then all of a sudden it burst to a big, giant blue scattered ball.

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And it's like, no, we live close to Vandenberg Air Force Base, but that's north of us. So we tend to see when rockets go off from Vandenberg, either

27:42

SpaceX or missile launches. But this was this was in a different area.

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So I had no explanation. Turns out the Navy was testing its submarine launch ballistic missiles from San Clemente Island.

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So, again, just because you see something, it's interesting, but it may not be accurate.

28:00

And so those are two examples. I've seen others. But those are the two examples that stand out the most.

28:05

One, I still can't explain, except that my friend did say he did read reports that we are finding ways to build aircraft that can disassemble and reassemble a flight.

28:16

I don't I've never seen that, so I can't prove say that that's accurate. So I don't know story.

28:21

So you you feel like you've seen one? I've seen advanced military technology being tested. Yeah, I'm convinced of that.

28:28

I've seen cruise missiles flying overhead at 600 feet just above us. You know, a cruise missile that comes in from the ocean towards China Lake.

28:36

Yeah, we've seen a lot of things. This is California. Yeah, right, right. So you're saying that like there probably isn't aliens out there because I feel like, you know, in the grandiosity of our

28:46

God, why stop at Earth? I don't think it's too far fetched to think that there's other creation out there, especially when we like expand his creation to be on Earth.

28:54

Why would only life be here? But you're just saying we haven't seen proof of it or like how do we what is the you know, the non governmental weapon warfare?

29:05

What's left? What are we left with here that we need to consider? Let me address your first point, OK, because there could be alien life, but the constraints of physics do not allow for interstellar travel.

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Hugh Ross has found research that they've shown. You couldn't even fit a termite in a device to fly at interstellar speeds.

29:26

It just wouldn't survive. But so there's a whole bunch of that. And there's a whole bunch of research going into techno signatures, trying to find signs of alien life.

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And on many occasions, what they thought would be a sign of alien life turns out to be a pulsar or or a star that has a broken up like rings like Jupiter or Saturn rings broken up around it that makes the pulses oscillate, looks like a technological signature.

29:55

So they're actually pursuing techno signatures. But we so the constraints of physics are such that that alien life that could exist hasn't made it here.

30:06

Ten astronomer or six astronomers that we talk about in our book who had over 10 years of observation each said if there is travel, it's through an interdimensional hypothesis, meaning it has to do something other than the laws of physics would allow for.

30:21

And these are folks that had a lot of observation time and they paid attention to the UFO phenomenon insofar as they were required to.

30:28

So this is that the biblical book and the laws of physics complement each other, complement each other. Right. So let's go back.

30:34

Who who are who who are these aliens? Well, or let's put it this way again, if ninety nine plus percent can be proven to be physical objects that are just misidentified, miscalibrated, misunderstood, but if ninety nine percent is identified.

30:53

So instead of UAP, it's now IP identified phenomena. There is still this small residual that is unidentified and likely remain.

31:04

It could just be that we haven't figured out how to identify it. So the technology is just more open minded,

31:10

I want to say. Yeah, I mean, well, they're having to figure out. So this is the problem. NASA and AR both point out all of our equipment is designed to detect things that we know, not things we don't know.

31:23

Right. So we have to figure out ways to get around that. And that's what all good science does is eventually tries to say,

31:28

OK, we don't know what this is. Can we develop new technology or new ways of doing technology that can help us identify this?

31:35

So this Gremlin device is supposed to be a mobile platform that they're testing in Texas to known

31:41

UAS or UAP sites. And what they're finding so far is a lot of bat and birds in the sky.

31:47

So but but they want to test to improve the technology and then provide it, because if it's a threat, if it's a military threat that some people have claimed and that's why the

31:58

Senate's funding ARO and NASA's involvement, if it's a real threat, we want to be able to identify it.

32:05

But so far, we haven't been able to. And it's I don't want to give you the technology, but it's multispectral.

32:10

So supposedly, a lot of these UAPs behave in ways they can accelerate without any visible means of propulsion.

32:17

They can hover without effects on the ground. So how is this possible? Well, that's why they're trying to get this new technology.

32:25

But let me go back to that earlier comment I made. While they don't leave artifacts, these

32:30

UFOs so far, they do leave physical effects. Now, this is interesting because people that have gone on investigative found were supposedly across saucer hovered in a certain area, not

32:43

UAPs yet, but a crash saucer landed on the ground by a farm. They could actually witness the ground to form by the presence of some kind of electromagnetic radiation.

32:53

What you talked about this, that signature that Groucho and others have talked about. Let me let me go back to a comment we we talked about last time we were on.

33:03

I gave you that example of no, no. Remember that I challenge you and you felt the effects in your body.

33:10

That's my mind using my voice to cause a spiritual or physical effect on your body.

33:18

The demonic realm, the angelic realm, the physical, real but nonphysical realm.

33:24

So the dominions, powers, principalities, thrones that you quoted earlier from Ephesians, they are created angelic beings or celestial beings, some of whom are loyal to God and some of whom are hostile to God.

33:37

They can have a physical effect. If you look at any of the prophets in the Old Testament, Ezekiel, Elijah, Elisha, they saw phenomenal stuff and they were credible witnesses to incredible phenomena.

33:49

Daniel himself met certain celestial beings that when he saw it, it caused his friends to faint.

33:55

He fainted and had to be revived. So celestial beings, which are a different plane of existence, they're real, but nonphysical.

34:03

They can affect us. They can have spiritual effects on us, either for good or for ill. So this is where we talk about the

34:10

RUFO hypothesis. What we have observed is that, and you particularly see it with two groups of people.

34:17

Who are most heavily involved in the belief in UFOs, the group called contactees, people who believe they've been contacted by alien life, or abductees, those who believe they've been taken up and probed or whatever, sorry.

34:32

Let's get into it. Well, what's really, and this is where Ken Sample's work comes in handy.

34:39

He points out that almost all of them demonstrate a long lasting spiritual, psychological, physical harm from their exposure to it and almost harm, physical harm.

34:51

And almost all of them are into the occult or into cultic beliefs. Before, so they were kind of already in that.

34:59

And they're still in it. Yeah. Is there any, like, I was just sitting in my bed and an alien contacted me and I suddenly went from Presbyterian to Satanic, like, or it's like you were in it.

35:12

You were inviting it into your soul. Well, there's, we call it open doors to the occult, meaning you don't even have to be actively involved, meaning you could have done tarot cards when you're a kid or done a levitation or a seance or read horoscopes.

35:28

I haven't, but that is like so beginner level entry. It is.

35:34

Oh gosh. So it's, so in Deuteronomy talks about it, whenever you seek power outside the source of divine power,

35:41

God, you are committing an act of rebellion and it's, it's punishable. It's a sin that's being punished.

35:47

So what you do is by doing that, we see it in the old Testament where Saul, King Saul tried to open himself up to a medium.

35:54

Um, these things are not benign. They are malign. And we see this with our, our

36:00

UFO hypothesis. Some people have open doors to the occult and need to be encouraged to repent of that, to give it up.

36:08

Now, even people who are innocent that don't have open, you know, that, that don't personally have an open door to the occult, like they, they didn't participate in any that can be affected by it, by location.

36:19

Uh, and Hugh gives a really good example. He, when he was in Syrah Madre, he was, like I said, the minister of evangelism was asked to go to this house and they had a poltergeist going on and these were really good

36:29

Christians. And it's supposed to be like, uh, the expression of a spirit moving around, knocking things down, affecting the house or the location.

36:39

You never saw the movie poltergeist? It's like 45 years. Okay. Absolutely. I saw that years ago.

36:45

So never saw the exorcist. Absolutely not. I don't want that in my head. Yeah. Good for you. Well, so it's interesting.

36:52

Poltergeist, uh, in this case, he talked to the couple. Do you have any, you know, do you have any of these things?

36:57

No, we never did this. We never did that. Do you have any kind of unknown sins that are not unknown?

37:02

Do you have any known sins? Do you guys have any of this? He was talking about like, do you have tarot cards? Did you participate? Yeah. Any, any of that.

37:08

And they said, no. When they said, well, let's just search the house. They had bought this house. They searched the house and the attic. They found some satanic ritual stuff.

37:15

Yeah. So the physical object itself was, and if you think in the old

37:21

Testament, why did, why did the Jews, why did the Israelites have to burn down all the idols on the hills?

37:27

Because that's where demons stayed. They were attached to physical objects. Oh my God. Yeah.

37:33

That's crazy. So it wasn't them. It wasn't their sin that caused it, but it was the presence of these objects that allowed for this open door to happen.

37:43

I, yeah. Oh my gosh. Obviously everything you're saying, I'm just like reflecting my own life.

37:48

But it's like, if you, you could be Christian girl, Christian boy, live with somebody who does do tarot cards.

37:55

And you're like, well, I'm good. That's them. This is me, but no, you're in the same house as them.

38:00

Well, and you might, you need to at least be responsible to encourage them to not participate in that.

38:09

Because, you know, if you're, if you're saying, well, you know, you hear this, you know, well, it's your life.

38:15

This is mine. We do our own thing. Well, Christianity, we think in terms of community, right. You know, I'm not judging you.

38:20

I'm saying this could be dangerous. You might want to pay attention to that. I've known people that have been affected by it.

38:27

Adverse. I actually have a friend who's a Christian woman who, when she heard my first explanation, this one time she goes,

38:32

Oh, I remember I participated in a levitation. It scared the bejeebers out of her.

38:37

This is when she was a kid and she immediately went and repented and never had any experience ever since. But she remembers that to this day.

38:43

And she physically saw someone's body rising off the bed. I know.

38:49

So anyway, so yeah, so I think there are, there is the possibility of this.

38:55

I think it's super remote. I don't think everyone's involved in it. But again, I brought up that stat earlier on, you know, about 50 to 70 % of millennials in Gen Z believe life's out there.

39:07

That's okay. But more people of that generation now read their horoscope than read the

39:12

Bible. So they're not going to be equipped to kind of, they might be exposed to the occult in different ways.

39:19

And I, you know, I remember during the election of 2016, there was witches covens that were trying to put a hex on the then president.

39:27

You remember that? Yeah. You know, so, I mean, it's not, it's not unreal. There's people who are engaged in the dark arts.

39:33

And I mean, if you look, even the Harry Potter series, it's benign, but, you know, there's a lot of that, you know, kind of like, oh, this is tantalizing.

39:41

This is interesting. It's exciting, but it could be dangerous too. I had the mom that didn't let us,

39:46

I had the mom that was like, no Harry Potter, but absolutely Lord of the Rings. That's a good mom, actually.

39:55

That's so funny. That is okay. So to refer back to the people that were contacted or abducted, they were already occult adjacent, if not occult within.

40:08

Correct. Or affiliated with and participating in the occult or occultics, cults. But it wasn't like, oh,

40:13

I'm a scientist and like, I'm trying to catch the, you know, I'm doing observations. It's like, I'm also practicing these other things that are.

40:20

Well, it's interesting. Hugh Ross, again, I'll bring him up because when, when it was still the Soviet union, he went to the

40:26

Ukrainian Academy of sciences and he talked about. Uh, extra or super dimensions dimensions beyond our universe, because everyone, every physicist and astronomer knows there are super dimensions of space time.

40:40

Uh, and we don't need to go into it because I would let Hugh talk for an hour on it alone. But, but essentially the universe is created in a very first nanoseconds.

40:52

Expanded faster than the speed of light. And the only way it could have done it is if it had multiple space dimensions.

40:58

So it had nine space dimensions plus dimension of time, half a dimension, because it only goes forward.

41:04

So there has to be at least 10 or 11 dimensions of space time to allow for this to happen.

41:10

So he was talking about it to them and they were like, oh, we're starting to see things in math about 14 to 15 dimensions, but it's behaving weirdly.

41:18

And Hugh said, or you have open doors to the occult because they weren't allowed to believe in Christianity. Right. And they started in Ukraine, in Ukraine, in Soviet Russia, they were atheists officially.

41:28

And when he told them about it, they said, oh my, we're swearing off this. And, and the weird stuff stopped happening.

41:36

What was the weird stuff? We'd have to ask him, I don't understand mathematics to understand how you can look at four dimensions.

41:43

So I don't know if I could explain 13, 12, 15 dimensions. Wow. Okay.

41:51

So do you have more information on what's happened, you know, to these people that have been abducted and contacted, how it has affected them spiritually?

42:02

Cause that kind of like that thread of, you know, there's no artifact of like a scar on their body, but spiritually they are heavily.

42:11

Psychologically and physically. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so, but that's where we get our inference that, that some of this could be by having open doors to the cult.

42:20

Clearly the abductees and contactees do. And there are a number of people who have said they've seen

42:26

UFOs that we know have open doors to the cult or horoscopes. So this is our hypothesis and we want it to be a falsifiable one, meaning let's find a way to test it in such a way that we can disprove it.

42:39

Um, because then, you know, that that's good science, right? It's, it's integrating a

42:45

Bible worldview, biblical worldview, along with the fit, the facts of nature. Um, and, and the science is going on and not trying to contradict either one.

42:54

Yeah, we call it a, they are UFO hypothesis because we've seen this behavior with certainly contactees and abductees and some people we know and have read biographies of who believe there's

43:06

UFO. Yeah. Yeah. And just to bring it back to biblically speaking, there's a lot of quotes that I think, you know, one of our first episodes was about, you know, demonic presence, and I think that it was like,

43:21

Oh, on earth, yeah, you got bad energy and you've got demons and they're all interacting with you, but I think this does open up to a brand new element of interdimensional and, you know, inter spatial that I think that we just,

43:36

Hey, none of us go to Mars, so it's not really an issue, but if we are, you know, we can't limit ourselves just to the demons of this earth.

43:42

And I, I, I feel like one of the questions going into this podcast where, you know, are aliens affecting us physically or are they affecting us spiritually or is it just one big conspiracy, but based off what you've said so far, it's just, it makes me rethink some of these verses of, um, you know,

44:03

I think second Thessalonians, you, you sent this to me second Thessalonians two, nine through 10 and Matthew 24, 24, remember that such beings can perform convincing and deceptive miracle signs and wonders.

44:16

That's the verse, not air quotes as it's fake, but, um, so I don't, are you, is it a stretch to say that they're being deceptive beings and coming to earth and being something that we don't perceive as what they truly are?

44:33

Yes. Um, because if you also look at the, go back for the modern era of UFOs, go to world war two, a number of pilots saw what they call foo fighters.

44:44

And these were these phantom aircraft that were following them around doing maneuvers, but they weren't real. They're cited over Europe, over Asia, uh, by multiple cultures of different people in different cultures have seen them.

44:55

You go back into the 19th century, uh, airships called dirigibles before a patent was actually on them.

45:02

Um, there was site sightings of dirigibles, um, these, these airships that didn't exist in technology yet.

45:09

They were always just at the beginning stages of our technological understanding, or just slightly ahead, which is interesting about you apps,

45:17

UFOs, you apps, they exhibit the same thing. They're not light years ahead of us. They're just a little beyond what we can understand just a little.

45:26

And it's almost as if it's a tease, a temptation to get us to focus away from the eternal truth of God, to these little mysteries that never get anywhere, never advanced civilization, never help anyone.

45:39

Um, and I think the fascination, particularly today with you, if you look just the history of UFOs, there was like three, now we're in a fourth phase.

45:46

The first phase was they're benevolent creatures. They're here to help us because we're going to destroy ourselves.

45:52

The second phase was, no, they're cultic beings. They're, you know, they're all this third phase, so on.

45:59

Now we're into this military phase. They're a military threat. They're, they're kind of just beyond the limits of our technology or we're reverse engineering them.

46:07

I would just say on that, none of the equipment, none of the technology that you see, the B1, uh,

46:12

B2, I'm sorry, a bomber or the F -117 stealth fighter or the F -35. They're all, uh, not evolution, revolutionary products.

46:22

They're evolutionary. We knew in world war II that metal aircraft could be detected by radar. So we thought about building aircraft with wood to avoid radar.

46:31

So we built them in strange shapes, but they're not strong enough. So we had to build them with metal, right? So, but the, the flying wing concept comes from the late forties, early fifties.

46:41

This, these ideas have been around. They just weren't, we didn't have the technological resources to build them in such a way that they would be, uh, effective in combat.

46:51

Okay. So do you, do you feel like those foo fighters or those didgeridoos?

46:57

I'm sorry. Whatever you just said. Dirigibles. That's Australian. Those dirigibles.

47:04

Um, do you feel like they're masquerades as an angel of light? Uh, well, yeah, they're certainly masquerades.

47:11

I don't know what they're intended to do. I mean, it's same thing with this UF phenomena. Again, who, who gets exposed?

47:16

Who's, who's observing them? What, what benefit did they offer? They don't offer any benefit that I'm aware of.

47:22

Uh, if anything, people to get, seem to get frenetic and frantic and follow this stuff. And I know people that are deeply involved in this idea that UFO is real, that, you know, the government's still covering things up, um, that, that, you know, we've got crash saucers, that everything's reverse engineered, and that just displays a lack of understanding of science, how it works or a lack of good reasoning.

47:43

It's reasoning to your best, uh, hypothesis confirming bias, rather than the scientific ways to try to disprove your bias first.

47:52

Yeah. I mean, just to defend those people, cause like, I feel like I'm one of them. Um, you know, you, you, you don't think that you're worshiping anything.

48:00

You think that you're simply observing something that you don't understand. Uh, like the same way we observe sharks.

48:05

I don't think that I'm worshiping a shark by, you know, wanting to spend time with it or learn more about it.

48:11

And so it's probably a lot of people are approaching it like, well, I need to learn more about this thing that I can't see, but I can't understand, but other people have seen, and I think that this conversation is really bringing to light that, like, you don't know what you're messing with, that it could be something that actually can't just like crash in your front yard or ruin your lawn.

48:28

It can crash in your soul and like really, really disrupt it. And, you know, abduct that.

48:35

Yeah. Well, I like that because one of the things I will tell you is that I'm encouraged by what AARO and NASA, if you go to their websites, type in NASA, AUP or UAP and AAR, UAP, you can look at NASA, UAP .com

48:49

or NASA .com. Yeah. Just put NASA, you know, put it in search, Google search, and it will pop up.

48:55

And they'll talk about their methodology, what they're trying to do. And you'll get a really, it's encouraging to me in one sense and discouraging in the other, and I'll tell you what

49:03

I mean by that. It's encouraging in that they're going to apply some rigorous science to this. So maybe instead of anecdotally dismissing, like the project blue book,

49:14

I mean, they tried to do the best they could. This is not trying to make it on a scientific basis. And they're trying to look at it like big data.

49:20

How do you look for anomalies? How do you look for the needle in the haystack when you don't know what the needle should look like?

49:27

So now you have to go back and characterize the haystack. So, you know, what looks different, anomalous, right?

49:32

And so they're really working on resolving that and where they can resolve and NASA's helping. And what's good about NASA's participation in it is that they're open source, they're civilian and everything they do is public.

49:44

The military obviously has one thing going against it. For example, I mean, if it's a technological thing that we have going, we can't let our enemies, our adversaries know what that technological characteristic is.

49:58

So so there is this sense in which we have to classify things on the military side. But NASA, NASA doesn't have to.

50:05

Oh, so yeah. And FAA is like NASA's helping FAA try to standardize their reporting so we can get and then if they develop this crowdsourcing platform, we are going to have some really good research done in the future that maybe will help bring better resolution to this.

50:21

Maybe it's zero percent that's actually anomalous phenomena. Maybe it's zero. But we don't know yet until we know.

50:29

Right. But what's but the discouraging part is this. We have so many problems in this country.

50:34

Why are we spending so much money on chasing after, I think in some respects, phantoms by NASA and this and FAA?

50:43

Great. If they can do it in a way that doesn't take away from their main missions, which is to defend us, to explore the universe.

50:51

I mean, why NASA wants to do it makes sense. They are they're the ones that lead the innovation and effort on exploring the unknowns out there in space.

50:59

So in one sense, it makes sense for NASA to do it. But AARO is the lead agency.

51:05

They are the one responsible. And it makes sense. They have to be the one because there are classified programs that only they, with those clearances, could actually go and investigate.

51:15

Interesting. OK, yeah, this is a lot to chew on. This is really eye opening, but again, like pretty low priority and like the list of things to worry about.

51:25

But it is interesting that this could be another avenue of a disruption of the soul and, you know, really impeding your relationship with God.

51:33

And it's something that you should be wary of, especially if you're spending a lot of time and energy researching it. But just kind of as we wrap up,

51:40

I feel like I want to circle back and kind of end with, you know, what we should be talking to as to our friends, you know, who who might be into the occult, the new age, the, you know, the the manifestation and the crystals and, you know, worshiping these things that aren't

51:57

God and giving power to them and idolizing them as like a source of power and a source of truth. You know, what is the apologetic?

52:04

How do we support them as Christians? How do we love them as Christians when like that's what they believe? But, you know, you don't want to be too intense when you're like,

52:11

I'm worried about your soul. Yeah, well, I like I love that approach. I there's a couple of things.

52:18

The first thing, obviously, you know, as I said before, no bad can come from good prayer or nothing bad can come from good prayer.

52:25

So if you have a friend that's involved, I would absolutely say pray for them and pray for the you know, they always say, you know, in walking with someone in a journey with someone, they have to trust you.

52:35

They have to respect you. They have to be curious and they want to ask you questions. So First Peter 315 is a good approach.

52:41

Always be prepared to give a defense for the hope that's in you. So you should work on that yet with gentleness and respect.

52:47

So I think that's the first approach. The second is get equipped. Our book Lights in the

52:52

Sky and Little Green Men 2002. I don't make a dime off of it now. I got an upfront fee one time years ago.

52:58

I get no royalties and no dividends. So don't worry about that. I'm not doing it for myself. We will actually write a new version of that, a much better,

53:06

I think, more because of everything else. It's got to be new material. But that book has a really good section on how you can help someone who's genuinely willing to step back from the cult.

53:17

And I would say you can see it. We have it in the book. Examine their life for open doors to the cult.

53:22

Terra cars, seances, levitate, any of these things. If you have that, repent of it.

53:27

Repent on it's seeking God's power apart from God and confess to God that it's a sin.

53:36

Demonstrate repentance by ridding yourself of anything that's a cultic or cultish, meaning getting rid of the tarot cards, burn them, throw them away.

53:44

I actually met a guy. One of the trails up here was burning a book, something like your rantia book was burning it and then putting it because he thought the demons that were attached to it were going to bury it in a river up by us.

53:54

That's a different story. Well, yeah, turn your life over to the control of Jesus Christ. If you really want power, that's divine.

54:01

The only person that can offer that is Jesus Christ. He is he is he's God's you know, he's

54:07

God's son. He's the one that came to die on our behalf to redeem us from our situation and acknowledge that his will is supreme and dedicate your life to following God's purposes.

54:17

Those are the steps. And we talk about it more in the book. Like I said, I gave you some other tips and things that, you know, your audience could look at if they're interested in following up on.

54:27

So how's that for an answer and a close? No, that that was a great closing. I'll definitely link the book in the show notes for this in case anybody wants to read it.

54:35

But what's like the timeline on the new book? Is that right around the corner? Is that a couple of years from now?

54:41

It's probably going to be a couple of years. They're kind of backlogged. And I still you know, they've said something to me in November and we still haven't had a meeting on it yet.

54:49

So that means. Yeah. Anyway, I also want to mention, if you're interested, there are some resources I have on my.

54:55

Can I stop here? No, go ahead. Of course. Yeah. My subset page, Mark T. Clark dot sub stack dot com.

55:03

I have three or four things on UFOs. I have a few other resources there. I'm finishing my book on Daniel, the politics of Daniel.

55:09

And I'm looking for a publisher right now. So there'll be more resources coming in in the near future.

55:16

That's awesome. And we have some of our we have we have I have our previous two videos on this.

55:22

Yep, yep. I'm on your sub stack. I'll definitely link it in the show notes below so people can keep reading and reference some of the older stuff that we've done together.

55:30

But this is a it's one of those things about Christianity that like the deeper you go in, the more you realize how all encompassing

55:39

God is. God's love, you know, demons, sorry, Satan's deterrence.

55:44

You know, it's just as kind of far reaching that we need to constantly be on the lookout for spiritual warfare.

55:50

I think that's one of the scariest things that I've realized in this, you know, seeking of the podcast and learning about God is like, yes,

55:57

I'm learning about Jesus, learning about the word. But like biblically speaking, the devil's everywhere, absolutely everywhere.

56:04

But I would say, remember, Jesus said the gates of hell cannot withstand this church. Greater, I mean, well, in other words, the kingdom we want to spread is going to knock over all the domains that Satan holds in the world, the kingdom is spreading.

56:17

And we're part of that. And it's also said greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world. And by that, they meant the spiritual powers.

56:24

There's no reason to be afraid if you're a believer in Jesus Christ and you follow Christ and submit your life to his control.

56:30

No reason to be fearful. Yeah. Yes. If you've submitted and you are living a life with God, then you are absolutely protective.

56:37

But I'm saying more so if you're not, you are really under attack. Can be. Yeah, absolutely.

56:44

These hours always fly by with you, Dr. Clark, so thank you so much. Thank you, Cassian.

56:49

I really appreciate spending time with you. You're fun. Thank you. We'll have a great rest of your day and hopefully see you again soon. OK. Talk soon.