February 29, 2016 Show with John R. Lott, Jr. on “More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime & Gun Control Laws” PLUS Dr. Ron Gleason on “God & Guns: The Christian Right & Duty to Protect Self & Family”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth

Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron Wishing you all a happy Monday on this final day of February February 29th 2016

I'm very excited about today's interview Because a lot of my listeners are excited about it.

They're the ones that told me you've got to get John R. Lott jr. On your program

John R. Lott jr. Wrote more guns less crime Understanding crime and gun control laws and he is going to be our first guest today.

In fact one of the pastors That strongly urged me to get John on the program with is a pastor in Oregon Who I interviewed not long after in fact the day after that Horrible shooting that took place in Oregon not long ago and unfortunately the media and the liberals and even some so -called

Republicans and Neoconservatives all begin to shout about The gun ownership being the problem behind these things.

Well our guest today Certainly does not believe that John R.

Lott jr. Is the author of five books including eight. Oh eight.

Oh, this is an outdated bio Including our predatory commitments credible who should the courts believe and that is also published by University of Chicago Press as our book today more guns less crime that we're discussing is also published by and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron

John R. Lott jr Good and I would like to also

Introduce you to our co -host today Reverend buzz Taylor who's been lately a frequent co -host of nine sharpens iron

It's great to have you on the program today buzz good to be back Let me just quickly describe the book on its initial publication in 1998

John R Lots more guns less crime drew both lavish praise and heated criticism more than a decade later

It continues to play a key role in ongoing arguments over gun control laws despite all the attacks by gun control advocates

No one has ever been able to refute lots simple startling conclusion that more guns mean less crime

Relying on the most rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever conducted on crime statistics

Statistics and right to carry laws the book directly challenges common perceptions about the relationship of guns crime and violence

For this third edition lot draws on an additional 10 years of data Including including provocative analysis of the effects of gun bans in Chicago in Washington DC that brings the book fully up -to -date and further bolsters its central connection

And I'd like to just read a quick blurb from jaw John O McGuinness of the

National Review by providing strong empirical evidence that yet another liberal policy is a cause of The very evil it purports to cure he

John R a lot jr. has permanently changed the terms of debate on gun control a model of the meticulous application of economics and Statistics to law and policy and that was as I said

John O McGuinness National Review Well, first of all

John, how do you go about? researching Where you have come to the conclusion that more guns is equivalent to less crime

How do you go about doing the research on something like that? In the third edition

I have data For cities all the cities in the United States By year over the period and also at the state level you try to account for Many different types of gun control laws.

There was 13 different types of ones that we looked at arrest rates conviction rates prison sentence links

Demographics income poverty measures lots of different things that may affect crime rates and to try to see what happens

For example more people have concealed handgun permits what happens to crime rates

And what you find is that just as people can deter criminals with higher arrest rates or higher conviction rates by the police

The fact that would be victims might be able to defend themselves can also deter criminals

And how do you address the victims and the benefits from protection? For those criminals who do attack the fact that Victim has a gun turns out to be this by far the safest course of action.

There's something called the National Crime Victimization Survey, which has been around for about 40 years and What it does is surveys about a hundred thousand people each year of which about five thousand or so of victims of violent crime and What type of crime did the criminal try to commit how did you respond with criminal arms or not armed where did it take place?

For the different types of responses the victim took And then they look at Whether serious injury occurred to the victim or somebody that you were with was killed or injured

And so you can break it down Finally to see what's the safest course of action for people to take and what you find consistently

Primarily for people who are relatively weaker physically women the elderly Every gun is by far the safest course of action

Women, for example who behave passively are about 2 .4 times more likely

To end up being seriously injured than a woman who has a gun Yeah, it is ironic that liberals who tend to be feminists

Are so much in favor in the vast numbers of gun very strict gun control laws

I mean some obviously would wish to ban all private gun ownership and yet women are probably going to be among the greatest victims of gun crime

At least those that are The most vulnerable people in our society who benefit the most from having the option to be able to go and protect themselves yes, and now obviously whenever one of these horrific crimes is headlining in the news about a school or a convenience store or fast -food restaurant or a post office or whatever the situation is where you have

Numerous people shot by crazed gunmen. They always talk about how private gun ownership and soft

Gun control laws are what gives rise to these things now are these?

Acts these horrific crimes that we all hear about to your knowledge committed by people who are owning legal guns and who who are you know purchased guns through Normal circumstances and legal legal means

And What's clear is how these killers time after time

Take that into consideration These killers these mass public shooters in the

United States They're trying to commit suicide, but they want to do so in a way that's going to get them attention

They know that the more people that they can kill or injured The more attention that they're going to be able to get so for example

You know just one example you look at the new town killer He had collected data on mass public shootings over a few decade period of time had collected the number of people killed or injured in each attack and Gone back and found the amount of news coverage on each of those packs

And then he had grafted out showing that the attacks That had gotten the most people killed had had gotten the most news attention according to police

You wanted to go and kill more people than were killed in the Norway attack Which up until the

Paris attack held the record for the most people killed? or injured in a mass public shooting in Europe or the

United States and And You know because you want to get more worldwide attention than even the

Norway killer had received It's chilling to go through and read the diaries or listen to other documents of these individuals leave

About how explicit they are about trying to go to some place where nobody's going to be able to stop them for a while because they know

That the more that if they go to a place where victims are defenseless they're going to be able to go and kill more people and they know and How chilling it is to hear them say that they can go to a place where people can't defend themselves

And they can kill more people. They'll get more media attention because that's their goal They they want to commit suicide, but they want to do so in a way that will get them attention

Let me give our email address If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence

If you live outside of the USA now does your data that you? That you are addressing in Your book is that is that only data that reflects upon the

United States? Or do you go into Europe and so on with these statistics? Of a good day from around the world let me know give you one example that is

Every single time it guns have been banned any place in the world not just in Washington DC in Chicago You see murder rates go up after the ban

In Washington DC in Chicago the claim is well Unless you ban guns over the entire country criminals will still get guns from Maryland or Virginia or from the rest of Illinois And the problem is that may explain why crime rates didn't fall as much as gun control

We're predicting when these laws were passed But it surely doesn't explain why they increase so much after the dance went to a place because presumably

People could go and get those guns from those other places to begin with But the thing is when you look around the world

Even in entire nations even in island nations, which you think would be the ideal experiment

There's no neighbor for them to go and boy readily defined easily dispensable borders and yet when you see in each of those cases where guns are banned you see large increases in murder rates that occur right after the bands go into effect and You know, you think at least one time out of randomness you'd see murder rates go down but there hasn't been the case they go up every single time and You know,

I think there's a simple explanation for that and that is when you ban guns, it's the most law -abiding

Good citizens who obey the laws and when you disarm the law -abiding good citizens

Criminals you may actually make it relatively easier for the criminals to go into their crimes

And we do have a listener in Great Neck, Long Island, New York Robert Who asks is it true that you

John used to be an imbecile? I mean liberal when it comes to gun control laws

Well, I was pretty much in the middle of the debate I Surely didn't believe what

I believe now Was probably as affected by everybody else as anybody else by the media coverage.

I mean when you constantly Hear about bad things that happen with guns and never hear about the benefits

It has a real impact on people's perceptions about the costs and benefits of guns

Even though I've been chief economist at the US Sentencing Commission and did a lot of research on crime generally

I've never really been interested in the issue of guns. I just kind of backed into it and You know surprised to see the large net benefits that people have look

There's one thing anybody who reads my research knows and I find police are extremely important stopping crime

I think police are the single most important factor in stopping crime One thing is clear is that the police themselves understand the limits to what they can do they realize

That even though they are important they virtually always arrive on the crime scene after the crimes occurred

Yeah, and that raises the question. What should people do when they're having to confront a criminal by themselves police realize

Their own lives how important guns are to them It's hard to find any other group of the population that's as supportive of private gun ownership as police officers

You know when you talk about mass public shootings If you look at police one, which is the largest private organization of police officers in the country with about four hundred fifty thousand members

You know, you can find their surveys on our website at crime research org

You find that 80 % of the police think they're getting rid of these so -called gun -free zones allowing people to build a

Their permanent concealed handguns with will make a big difference in terms of stopping

We do have another listener in Newville, Pennsylvania Susan who asks do you believe that an

American citizen should be able to purchase any type of weapon and how would that affect the local police protection that you mentioned where the citizens of a given community may be more powerfully armed than the local police well,

I Don't think the citizens are more powerfully armed

You know, I think that the things like assault weapons for example

People seem to think that there's something different than they actually are if you look at an assault weapon

At least the way it's defined in the media Is basically a semi -automatic

Rifle that functions identically to a semi -automatic hunting rifle

There's the same bullets with the same rapid as you doing the same damage. In fact, you know guns like the 15

Those are similar to small caliber hunting rifles

You know, they're basically Too small caliber to even be legally able to use to hunt deer in many states

You know, they're more likely to wound rather than kill the deer But you know if you want to go and ban all semi -automatic weapons

You know at least let's talk about that, but at least but to try to go and ban some semi -automatic rifles based on how they look and how they function

You know, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me So, I mean if she wants to be specific about the types of guns or whatever that she thinks should be banned

I'm happy to talk to her Well, let me just ask you a question if you could give me a list as brief as you want to give or as lengthy as You want to give what weapons do you believe should be banned if any?

So Are you saying then that you do believe that there is a limit in your opinion as to what guns

An American citizen should be legally able to own I do empirical work.

I look at what guns people can own Now I don't have data on what they might possibly be able to own

And at least in the range of guns that people can legally own Which are, you can see rules changing on semi -automatic weapons

I don't see any evidence that any changes in the types of semi -automatic weapons that people are able to own

Has any bad impact on crime rates Yeah, well

I was actually asking about your personal opinion on that, what you thought I don't have personal opinions on this type of stuff

I just try to look to see what the data shows on them I see Now what is the most typical weapon that is used in committing deadly crime

In the United States It would basically be a handgun, a semi -automatic handgun

A pistol And what areas in the

United States are the freest and loosest when it comes to gun control laws

Well, I suppose you have a lot of the western states, a lot of the south

You know, basically as far as gun control goes The strict gun control states are basically

California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland You know, those states around there,

D .C. obviously That's where you see by far the strictest gun control

Most of the rest of the country Is relatively remote and there's variations that you see

So for example, there's ten states now

That you can carry concealed handguns without a permit It's basically

Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming, Arkansas, Mississippi, Maine, Vermont And then there's two states where you can carry in virtually all the states without a permit

That's Idaho and Montana, like 99 .4 % of the states

In those two states you can carry without a permit So I mean that's just one example

But you know, there you have states from the west to the south to the north And why is it that this seems to be

I mean it seems to be as even the book cover has described it as A very simple and almost like a no -brainer conclusion that you've drawn

Yeah, if more people have guns in a certain area People are going to be more afraid to commit a crime in that area

Because they don't want to get killed themselves But why is this such, it seems such a secret Or something that is not even addressed when

Republicans and so -called conservatives are standing behind podiums

Talking about gun rights I mean you have lots of people,

Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio Some others like that,

Carlos Hinojena Others, Ben Carson, I think have done a good job of explaining the reasoning

That's involved here I mean when I go into a debate sometimes

One of the simple questions I ask is If, God forbid, somebody was stalking you or threatening you or your family

Would you feel safer putting a sign in front of your house That says you're open to gun free sale?

And I never run into anybody that I'm debating

That would say that That's in part, they don't say that Because they know it's not going to be credible with the audience

They realize that if they say that Sure, I'll put a sign like that They'd lose credibility, it's the even the strictest gun control proposal

They'd argue that and have a simple reason for that That is, if you were to actually put a sign like that In front of your home

They realize it would be a bad thing for criminals That they would view that It's not up to them,

I'm not allowed to bring my gun in So I won't attack They'll think to themselves This is an easy target

This is where I'm going to go after And that's what you see Time after time Whether it be You know, just last month

There was almost an attack at one of the largest churches in Detroit ISIS sympathizer

His father, fortunately Had realized that there was something wrong with his son And he contacted the

FBI And the FBI put a walker on him And found

That he was trying to attack one of the largest churches One of the reasons that he gave

Was that he said There are a lot of people there They'll get a lot of coverage And nobody up there is allowed to have a gun

So it would be very easy to go and attack people And kill them Without them being able to stop them

From doing the attack So you see this time after time You look at last year The Tarzan shooting

Or when the diary came out last year From the Batman movie theater Similar types of things came out

The first target Was a Tarzan shooter Was supposed to be Tarzan college He looked into it

Realized that the security that they had there He decided to go after the church Where he knew that there would be nobody there

To go and stop them In the Batman movie theater In the diary that he put out

His first target Was going to be at a airport He found that there would be

Too much security there And they would kill him Before he was able to go And kill his victims When he was picking movie theaters

There were 7 movie theaters That were within a 20 minute drive Of his apartment

Only one of those movie theaters Posted signs He didn't go to a movie theater

That was closest to his home He didn't go to one that advertised itself Prominently Instead of the largest auditorium

In the state of Colorado Instead he went to the only one Where he knew that Victims weren't able to protect themselves

He went through cases from the previous year Like The St.

Barbara shooting Or The New Brunswick attack Where again

These killers understood That they wanted to try to go and find Venues where People wouldn't be able to stop them

From doing their task And by the way I want to let our listeners That wrote in with questions

Robert in Great Neck, New York Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania You're getting free copies of this book

More Guns Less Crime Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws Compliments of University of Chicago Press We do have

An anonymous listener In Alabama Who says that He asked a pastor he knows

If he packed a gun And the pastor said absolutely And when he said

Asked the pastor If someone began Shooting From the outside of Your congregation an intruder came in And began shooting

In your church what would you do And the pastor said I'd duck And the anonymous listener said

Why would you do that Because I don't want to be hit by the crossfire Of everybody else in the church Shooting the criminal

But I'd like You to Just one comment If you go to our website

Crimeresearch .org You'll find We have dozens of cases Of mass shootings

That have been stopped By citizens With criminally concealed handguns One of the concerns

That's often voiced Is well why would you accidentally shoot a bystander The thing is People look through these cases

And there's not one single case Where a bystander has been accidentally shot By a permit holder

The other concern that's raised Is well when a police arrive on the scene Don't they go and accidentally

Shoot the permit holder And that's never occurred either So while those types of concerns

Are possible I would just say It's not something that we actually observe Happening And I know that You also have a blog site

That is John Arlott Yeah crimeresearch .org For the crime prevention research center

That can go and find A lot of stuff that we've been talking about And a lot more At the website of crimeresearch .org

Crimeresearch .org Do you still have JohnArlott .blogspot .com Yeah I would just go

Crimeresearch .org Crimeresearch .org And for our New York listeners And we have many of them

The New York City Jinto Is having a debate Featuring our guest

John Arlott On this very issue Can you say anything about the individual

You'll be debating at this event Can't remember Okay that's alright For more details

If you'd like to attend that event Go to nycjunto .org That's nycjun

As in Nancy T as in Thomas O Dot org Forward slash upcoming dash

Speakers nycjunto .org forward slash Upcoming dash speakers I want to thank you so much

Mr. Lott for being on the program And I hope that you return to our program In the near future Well thank you very much for having me on I appreciate it

Have a great day Thank you very much And when we come back from our break

We're going to have another guest To continue the thread of this broadcast This theme

Dr. Ron Gleason of Grace Presbyterian Church In Yorba Linda, California So we're going to be talking about God and guns

A Christian's right and duty To protect self and family So we hope you don't go away

And we still have some more books to give away By Dr. John Or Mr. John R.

Lott More guns, less crime So we have a limited number

So I would advise you Email us as soon as you can With your questions If you care to receive a book

And this book offer is only available For our United States listeners But we'll be right back with Dr.

Ron Gleason And more on the same subject After these messages Paul wrote to the church at Galatia For am

I now seeking the approval of man Or of God Or am I trying to please man If I were still trying to please man

I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a

Reformed Baptist Church And we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset To be much more concerned with how God views What we say and what we do

Than how men view these things That's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the apostles priority

It must not be ours either We believe by God's grace That we are called to demonstrate Love and compassion to our fellow man

And to be vessels of Christ's mercy To a lost and hurting community around us And to build up the body of Christ In truth and love

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts Or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 That's 508 -528 -5750

Or go to our website To email us, listen to past sermons Worship songs or watch our

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Grace Presbyterian Church In Yorba Linda California Yorba Linda is a conservative

Presbyterian Church We make use of The ordinary means of grace

That is the preaching of the word The proper administration of the sacraments Prayer and Christian fellowship

We are, I guess For lack of a better phrase We are traditional

Conservative and our worship Reflects that we adhere To what we call the regulative

Principle which means that We strive to worship Only in the way that God has prescribed

In his word so we don't Have any track lighting Although I'm trying to get a fog machine

Out I really would like to have one of those So it's just very

Straight forward preaching the word I preach through books of the bible And for those who are interested

They can find all of the My sermons and the sermons Of my assistant pastor at One word here

GracePresbyterian .net That's GracePresbyterian .net And just to give you a little bit

More information about our guest Dr. Ron Gleason Is married with six children

After graduating from the Citadel Military College Of South Carolina He served three years in the army

As a tank platoon leader Soon thereafter He completed a

Masters of Divinity Degree at Gordon Conwell Seminary And a

Doctor's Degree At the Free University of Amsterdam He then pastored churches in Holland and Canada Worked with Ligonier Ministries in Toronto And after moving to California In 1994

Completed his PhD from Westminster Seminary In Philadelphia And we have had the current

President of that seminary Peter Lilbeck On our program

In the not so distant past And you've also written a book That we hope to get you back on the air

Next week in fact Next Monday on the 7th of March On the death penalty

Tell us something about that book that you've written Well that was a book One of the projects that I have in mind

My work in Holland was In the area of Christian ethics And my PhD at Westminster In Philadelphia Was in systematic and historical

Theology And as a pastor of basically 35 years

In three foreign countries Holland and Canada And Southern California Which is the most foreign country

I've been in I had this

Teen burning desire To put into the hands of The man and the woman in the pew

Simple ethical commentaries On issues that are Prevalent in our

Day and age I have written some workbooks On homosexuality

Basically called What homosexuals What homosexuals do A parent speaks out

And I wrote that as a wrestling coach And as a parent And as a pastor

And the death penalty book came about Because a number of people were questioning

Whether it was right For Christians to be In favor of the death penalty

And so what I decided To do was to write the book And to provide as much

Biblical material As I could To try to convince people that Indeed Because of Texts such as Genesis 9

And the whole idea Of man being created in the image Of God That when a person

Takes another person's life intentionally There are words In the Hebrew language that Speak about murder and that really

Is the correct translation Of the signal commandment You shall not murder Not you shall not kill

Because what I say In the book and Lord willing We'll talk more about this

This coming Monday Is that all murder Involves the killing

Of a person But not all killing Is in fact murder

In other words there are Legitimate means by which So for example law enforcement

Or our military Personnel or even a private Citizen can protect

Him or herself And not be guilty of Murder And the title of that book again?

It's called The Death Penalty on Trial The Death Penalty on Trial And we're going to be

God willing Discussing that for two hours This coming Monday March 7th

From 4 -6pm Eastern And now let me Have the privilege

Of introducing you Ron to my co -host A fellow

PCA Well put Presbyterian Brother in Christ who is

A member of a PCA congregation Locally here in Carlisle Let me introduce you to the

Reverend Buzz Taylor Hello good to meet you Buzz great to meet you brother And I have been seriously looking forward to This subject today

It really strikes a nerve It's one I've been interested in for years And Buzz is a

Proud gun owner Yes I am a gun owner And Buzz has had

Quite a journey theologically From Fundamentalist Baptist to Charismatic To Pentecostal to Church of God Finley Ohio To now theologically

Reformed And Presbyterian Took me a long time to arrive Unfortunately he leaped over Reformed Baptist Which I am particularly a

Reformed Baptist But I forgive him For that I'm sure the forgiveness is mutual

Now you're Actually writing a book On the subject that we are discussing

It's not in print yet but you're in the process of writing it Correct? That is correct I'm looking at the manuscript right now

Including the bibliography It's about 280 pages May I just give you

Kind of an outline of what the book Oh yeah definitely I was asked by A number of good friends of mine

At various times And at various locations If I would be willing to do

Something like this And it's been a bit of a consternation To me that more of my

Conservative Presbyterian and Reformed Friends and ethicists

Have not been willing to touch this And I don't think There's any shame involved in this

In fact as I began the Study I found it not only To be fascinating for myself

But I found that there were a number of Law professors, many of them Non -believing as far as I know

That were willing To help me with this and were fascinated By the idea that a pastor

Would even consider this So Boz you and I are in a unique Yes So I began

By just asking Why is this necessary And one of the reasons why I think it's necessary Is that For so many it seems

That pacifism Is the default Setting for Christians That I've even talked

With fellow PCA pastors Who have explained to me That if they heard something

That went bump in the night And they found that there was someone In their house and they had done harm

To their children they wouldn't do anything Except call 911 and pray And I Found that difficult to swallow

For myself, I think it's a bit ivory Tower, I think in reality When the

Event presents itself to Us that all of the ivory tower Stuff just falls away

And then You begin to, the whole idea Of the will to live and to the

Will to protect your wife And your family, that kicks in And I think it kicks in with a vengeance

At least I hope it would And so I decided to write What I consider to be

In the very first place A common sense Commentary On guns and Gun ownership

And at the same time because I'm a Christian Ethicist I take of the nine chapters in the book

Two lengthy chapters Are devoted to what does the bible Say about this

So I asked the question how do we get where we are And then I looked at some of the things That probably

John talked about In the previous section Where we had the gun control act of 1968

And there were People on that committee which I thought was Fascinating when I began to study it It was

Orrin Hatch and Bob Dole Ted Kennedy, Arlen Specter And Joe Biden The gun control act came out

In 1968 And just to show the efficiency Of our government they

Finally published their report In 1982 But here's what they said

I thought it was fascinating In February of 1982 that committee Said this, the conclusion is thus

Inescapable that the History, concept And wording of the second amendment

To the constitution of the United States As well as its Interpretation by every

Major commentator In the first half of the Century after its ratification

Indicates that what Is protected is an Individual right of a

Private citizen to own And carry firearms In a peaceful manner

So that we have I think devolved From that point So I go from There to chapter 2 where I was helped by a man

And I don't know if he still teaches At George Mason University And So His name is

Nelson Lund and he was Very helpful and he helped me to Take the 27 words that we

Find in the second amendment And to parse them in a Way that he was

Convinced it was An individual right and moreover That it guaranteed The first amendment, the second amendment

Is the guarantee of the first amendment So then I went into chapter 3 where I talk about Law enforcement, state

Constitutions Even some of the law enforcement officials That have really gone

PC And there are others who haven't I think it's

Of the sheriff David Clark Up in Wisconsin Who has just done wonderful work

In favor of Individual citizens being Able to keep and bear arms

Then I did in chapter 4 a brief history Of English and United States History on guns

And that was a fascinating Chapter 2 and I remember that As I did that there was a statement by Ben Franklin who said

Make yourselves sheep and the Wolves will eat you, which I thought was a very Constitutional statement

And then in chapter 5 I Asked the question, because that's a hotly Debated issue, is what exactly

Was the understanding of the word Militia by the English In history and by The founding fathers.

That's obviously a Primary point because of the fact that The second amendment regards That And it became very

Clear to me, increasingly clear As I went along that The term militia was

Individual citizens And depending upon who you read That individual citizen that Constitutes the militia ranged

In age from 14 to A little over 60 And then the chapters 6 and 7

Were kind of an extended Discourse on what Scripture actually teaches

And then in chapter 6 Or 8 rather I make the point that conventional wisdom

As we have it today isn't It's not really conventional It's not really wisdom And then finally

I conclude With the whole idea Of looking at the nations of Israel Switzerland And Japan Because each of those respective countries

Has some unique gun laws And then I added An appendix And it ended up being

A kind of a back and forth I had With a fellow PCA pastor Who's out in your area

And He was one of the ones who said That he would never, never ever

Do anything to prevent Somebody from Harming his family

He would just call 911 and I tried to Explain to him that if that's The case, depending upon where you are

But I have in my congregation I have two SWAT people And they have told me

That their best response time Is probably 15 minutes So that means that all that Law enforcement is going to do is

Clean up the mess and take a report Right And by the way I'll give our email address

For those of you who'd like to join us on the air With a question It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N At gmail .com And please give us your first name

City and state and country of residence If you're outside of the USA I do have a listener

In Garden City, Long Island, New York Brian Who says or asks

Are Christians ever allowed to defend Themselves or someone else From physical attack

If yes, does scripture prohibit What tool we use

To defend ourselves or others With Great question Thanks for sending that in I think that strikes at the heart

Of the issue I am convinced That the 6th commandment

Is the decommandment That allows Christians To protect themselves

I look at that From the basic understanding Of the 6th commandment

In the Old Testament As well as in the creeds And confessions of the

Christian church That we are to Avoid doing harm to ourselves And others and that we are to Defend ourselves and our property

And our loved ones Does it Prohibit? No It doesn't

When Cain slew Abel In Genesis I don't know what kind of object

He used I don't know if he strangled his brother I don't know if he hit him with a rock

Or with a stick Or whatever he did But whatever it was God did not

Prohibit those implements Immediately after Cain slew Abel So he said

We are banning all rocks Nobody can carry rocks anymore So I really believe that But to make it very concrete

And again we come down to the Practical aspect of it If we are dealing with Something that goes bump in the night

In our house If you are not Very very very good

At hand to hand combat I wouldn't recommend it because typically What I have found in situations

Like that both in the military And in civilian life Is that in those

Kinds of very Intense situations Your gross motor activity

Drops to almost zero And Your fine motor is even

Less if possible So what happens is You get this adrenaline rush

And to go out And to try to do hand to hand Combat in the dark with Somebody that you don't know whether they are

Armed or not Or whether they are much Bigger than you or much more competent At hand to hand combat

I wouldn't advise Certain non lethal Approaches such as Pepper spray

Pepper spray can be effective Only if you are In very close proximity

To your assailant Only if there is no wind Blowing because if the wind is

Blowing towards you and you spray The person you are attempting To assail you

That spray is going to come right back in your face And you are going to be the one blinded And gagging for the moment

So in general What I would say if there is something that goes Bump in the night in your house

You know your house better than the Intruder knows your house And probably my weapon of choice

Would be a handgun And by the way Brian you are getting a free copy

Of John Arlott Junior's book More Guns Less Crime Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws Enjoy that Brian It's a great book

Yes and that's one of the reasons I feel Confident to give it away during your interview

Even though you didn't write the book Is because I know that you highly recommend the book And perhaps

We'll have In fact I know that Your publisher for the death penalty book

Said they are shipping out books to give away Next week for our listeners Oh excellent

So our listeners should mark that down on their calendars Buzz, Reverend Buzz Yes of course

The subject of the Second Amendment has already been brought up And just to give you some idea

The extent that People will go at to Eliminate it

And I wish I had the documentation on this I lost it years ago But back in the 80's

I believe it was Early 80's A school kid had dropped his history book

In a snow bank out in front of my house I took advantage of that and brought it in And I was looking in the appendix

And they had a really nice Color picture of the Bill of Rights You know fancy printing and all that And in the

Bill of Rights They had split the First Amendment In half and used the second half

As the Second Amendment And there was no Second Amendment Of the right to keep and bear arms

So I mean here I'm thinking we've got a generation now That is never even going to learn

That they ever had the right to keep and bear arms Right But I was doing volunteer wrestling coaching

I used to take The wrestlers and ask them To let me see their history books

And the last one I looked at Buzz There was A paragraph on George Washington And seven pages on Marilyn Monroe Wow I mean

But this is Basically what we're discussing here Is indoctrination And textbooks

That lie To the American people That's a serious offense as far as I'm concerned

When you take something Like you just described Where you take the First Amendment You break it into two

And eliminate the second That's deceit Oh definitely yes Like the late

D. James Kennedy said We're all entitled to our own opinion We're not entitled to the wrong facts

Well exactly When I talk to people Who are opposed to gun ownership

My response My rejoinder to them is The Second Amendment Doesn't say that you must

Go out and buy a gun It simply says As a law abiding citizen

If you are so inclined You may keep and bear arms And so it gives you that For any and all

Who say to me I don't want a gun I say that's fine As far as I know we're still living in a free country

And that's your choice You do not have to buy a gun But what is I think most detrimental

Is when you have people who Say I don't want a gun And therefore you should not have one

I am really of the Opinion That if one of these people

Was in a situation And there was a bad guy With a gun They would want a good guy with a gun

We do have another Listener Another Brian This one not from New York But this one from Gardners Pennsylvania Brian writes in How did this country go

From pastors in the pulpit All but demanding Whoops I just lost

Brian's Email here I'm sorry about that All but demanding Gun ownership

All but demanding the men in their congregation To take up arms at the time of the American Revolution To an almost sweeping anti -gun

Stance today I guess Brian's Question is

Assuming that most pastors Are anti -gun I don't know if that's correct or not I'm sure most liberal pastors are

But if you could comment on that Sure I mean the short answer Obviously is that There's a history

Involved in the 17th century Early 17th century in the

State of Virginia It was actually Against the law

Not to bring Your gun to church And here's a

Little known trivia fact If a Virginian Failed to bring his gun to church

He was fined Seven pounds of tobacco By the way

When our co -host Buzz was a pastor he was very Thankful that law was not in place

Anymore Yeah exactly So I think what has happened

I mentioned Earlier the gun control act That started in the 1968 so if we begin to think

About those halcyon days In the 1960s and early 1970s where this country

Was literally standing on His head and there was so Much going on and The movement to the left

Was obvious and precipitous And again to Come back to Buzz's point

Earlier the whole notion Of the deception In many of the books that our school

Children are using I believe that it's safe to Say now that much of what

Passes for public education Is indoctrination it really Matters little what the ethical

Subject is it's going to be Way left of center And then when you

Begin to I'm Concerned about Christians In public schools because I know that that can be very very detrimental

And depending upon the stats That you read at any given time There is something like A 50 up to A 75 percent attrition

Rate of Christians not Coming out of high school intact And That's unacceptable

Attrition and if you're on the battlefield And you've lost 50 percent You're in deep weeds

And then those That other percentage That survives then goes where?

To secular universities Where the attack Is intensified And the tenured professors by And large are very liberal

And the net result is That these Strong Christian kids come

Out of university after having Gone through the middle of high school And university and it's a

Miracle it's only by divine intervention That they're able to keep their faith Intact so what happens

Is with regards to the Guns in school basically every Authority figure that They come in contact with Are they're telling them this is

Bad and of course by the time You go away to university I realize That by my sophomore year at the

Citadel I reached my apogee of knowledge I had just Do everything I needed to know and I Became convinced that my parents

Didn't know anything And I questioned almost everything They had taught me when

I was Growing up and so you have These tenured professors who have written Books and they have the jackets with the

Nice little patches on the elbows And all of that and they come In they sound very profound

And people get Swayed and they get swayed very very Easily plus Again to Brian's point what

Happens if you pay any Attention to the newscast and anything Else virtually

Everybody you're going to hear or see Is going to make some Some reference to how

Bad guns are every time There's a shooting whether it's Virginia Tech or whether It's Columbine matters

Little that there's always Going to be A big hoot and cry

First thing you're going to hear is we need more Gun laws we need more gun laws And I think it's important to keep in mind

For all of us that if Every law we have On the books right now and Every law that any

Legislator could conceive Will never stop The problem of evil and sin

Well if you just look at what Happened in Evangelicalism Since we were talking about bringing guns

To church we have Come to a place in Evangelicalism Where you're not even allowed

To disagree with your opponent Without repercussions how much less to shoot An assailant Well exactly

That is indicative don't you think Of just how far we have

Devolved If I see a campus A college campus for example

That wants to have a Conservative speaker come and speak And that conservative speaker

Gets shouted down Or is not Able to speak I don't think that's tolerant

At all and I think Tolerance ends Basically when

One side or the other gets The 51st percentile By the way

Brian in Gardners Pennsylvania You too are getting a free copy Of more guns less crime

By our first guest John Arlott Who was on previously Thanks to the generosity of the

University of Chicago Press We have to go to a break right now If you'd like to join us on the air With a question of your own

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N At gmail .com I think we have a couple more books left

And these are only Available for our United States listeners I'm sorry but our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service C -V -B -B -S dot com

Who ship out these free giveaways for us Cannot be stuck with an enormous

Overseas and Canadian shipping bill At the end of each month Because we give away a lot of books On Iron Sharpens Iron So I hope that you who are in Canada And overseas can forgive us for that But we still want to hear from you

With your questions if you have them And the email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

Don't go away we're going to be right back With Dr. Ron Gleason On God and Guns Like a topical reference bible

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Thriving story Welcome back

If you just tuned in Our guest right now Is Dr. Ron Gleason Pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church In Yorba Linda, California We are discussing

God and guns The Christian's right and duty To protect self and family

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N a lot of misconceptions in his time.

When we find, if they refrain, you have heard it said, but I say to you as Jesus is giving the true interpretation of the law of God, he's putting it into a context where he's talking also about the spiritual interpretation of the law, because in the days of the

Lord Jesus, it had come down to the point where the Jews at that time thought as long as I'm keeping the letter of the law and I'm good to go, and he's talking more about the whole spirit of that, and so by the time he gets through this section in chapter 5, he's giving us an interpretation.

It does involve literal striking of somebody in the face, but there is a spiritual dimension to this that he's trying to get across to his disciples.

And we have to take our very last break, so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, send in an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We do have a couple of listeners already waiting to have their questions answered, but if you have anything on your mind that you'd like to join them with asking on the air, please write that as soon as you can, at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away, we're going to be right back with Dr. Ron Gleeson and our topic of discussion,

God and Guns, the Right and Duty of Christians to Defend Self and Family.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

This is Chris Lorenzen, and by the way, Dr. Gleason, that was the ministry that I was just mentioning to you before,

Solid Ground Christian Books. We hope that they get in contact with you and arrange something with you. That'd be great. And we are discussing

God and Guns, the Christian Right and Duty to Defend Self and Family with Dr.

Ron Gleason. The first half hour of the program we had on John R.

Lott, Jr. to discuss his book, More Guns, Less Crime. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrislorenzen at gmail .com,

chrislorenzen at gmail .com. And one of the things that I have personally seen from our brethren in the

UK and other places in the world who are theologically identical to us, a number of them think that we here in the

States are gun crazy. We are fanatics with guns.

We are preoccupied with this. We have this image of reckless cowboy wannabes and that this type of machismo being equated with Christianity is really deplorable and so on.

What do you have to say to that kind of a thing that I've heard in response to similar programs that I've had, not necessarily on this exact issue, but those that involve gun control laws and so on, if you could.

Sure. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I just think they're still bitter about losing the war.

That's why they lost. That's why they lost. No, actually it isn't, because in my historical section, as I mentioned earlier,

I do talk about the whole idea of the English and the

U .S. history on guns. Now, what has happened in England and other places in Europe as well is that they have been effectively disarmed, and unfortunately there are pastors who have played along with this, who have played into the hands of the government.

Here's my thesis I write about in the book quite a bit. An armed society is a polite society.

I believe that part and parcel of our problem and the problem of the

Brits who would complain about us having guns is the fact that we've watched too many

Westerns. In the Westerns, we get this idea that it was indeed the

Wild West, so that therefore if we give guns now to law -abiding citizens who pay their taxes, they're going to be riding down the freeway one day, and somebody's going to ride by, cut them off, and give them the universal sign of peace and prosperity, and so they're going to take out their .357

and blow them away. That simply doesn't happen. It isn't reality.

Whenever we see these mass shootings and everything else, I know that people are longing for the person doing that to be a conservative theologically or politically, or to be a life member of the

NRA or gun owners of America, but it doesn't happen that way. Florida, the state of Florida, was a classic test case.

In the early 1980s, Florida passed what is called a shall issue law.

That means that if the person who applied for a concealed carry permit had not been a felon, had not been in a mental institution or anything like that, they were required to, they had to take

I think a course, a two or three day course, to make sure they could actually hit a target, and they were given the ability to carry their weapons.

What everyone predicted in the media was that there would be this enormous gun raid.

There were going to be shootings in the streets. The streets of Florida were going to be blowing with blood, and the exact opposite occurred.

They saw a precipitous drop in rape, assaults, burglaries, and everything else.

It's interesting that in comparing Britain to the United States, most of the invasions of privacy in British homes take place within the home, because the assailants know the

Brits are not armed. Most that happen in the United States take place outside the home, because the assailants know that maybe these people have guns in their home, but when they're outside, the government has effectively disarmed the

American law -abiding taxpayer. Those assaults take place outside the home.

I think it's an interesting comparison when you look at what's going on. In Britain now, there was one man who finally did,

I guess he managed to hide a shotgun that was supposed to be confiscated. He protected himself.

He'd been burglarized a number of times, and he's in prison for protecting his home and his family.

I think it's also interesting that in terms of the greatest dictators that we think of,

Mao, Mao Tse -Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hussein, what's the first thing they did?

They disarmed the citizens. When you look at the Bible, you see what did the Philistines do with the

Israelites? Disarm them. What did the Egyptians do with the Israelites? They disarmed them. So they had no way to protect themselves and to defend themselves.

So they were the sheep that were going to be eaten by the wolves. Is it true that the local

Bobby on the streets of England is not even carrying a gun, the local policeman? I think they're rethinking that one because of some of the attacks that they have had recently.

But yes, that is true. They don't carry firearms.

Again, I think they're rethinking that position in light of current events. Now some would say that would be a sign or an evidence that guns are not necessary to deter crime because they would say that the crime rate here in the major cities of the

United States is much greater than that occurs in England. How do you comment on that?

John Lott's book is, I think, very, very helpful on that because it deals with the whole idea of statistics.

And within the context of statistics, when, for example, and I deal with this in the manuscript, you have a number of people who will say that guns in the hands of young people, you see this huge spike in terms of violence.

Now what they don't tell you is that guns in the hands of young people, according to these statistical analyses, involve gangs.

Well yeah, if you have gangs out on the streets shooting each other, doing drive -by shootings and doing all of the things they have to do to get initiated into the gang, go out and murder some random person, yeah, then you're going to see a spike in the death by guns.

But the statistics, and that's just one of the many places where John Lott's book is so helpful because John breaks that down so well and shows that that's just not the case.

And I'm going to probably be politically incorrect here, but I'm going to go ahead and say it anyway because it's common sense, it's truth, and it needs to be said.

Unfortunately, unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of gun violence in the

United States is in the cities where they have the most stringent gun laws.

So, for example, Detroit, Chicago, New York, all of the big cities where there are gun controls on top of gun controls, you have this.

And by and large, not totally, but by and large, it is black -on -black crime.

And it's usually about drugs or turf or both. And that's, unfortunately,

I take no joy in saying that. That just happens to be the cold hard fact. I remember going years ago, many years ago, to a fundraiser for Alan Keyes when he was running for president.

And I remember he had a great answer to a question from the audience when somebody said, why are you so opposed to gun control laws?

He quoted Lord Acton from the 19th century. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Unless we're talking about God. Excuse me? Unless we're talking about God. Yes, right.

And the fact of the matter is, it's always a dangerous thing to have a minority of people who are in leadership, who are in power in any given country, to have all the guns.

I mean, when you think about it, it makes absolute perfect sense. Well, it does. And when you stop and think about all the people today,

I mean, we're in this election cycle right now. The people today that are out campaigning and are campaigning against the

Second Amendment, and there are many who have said that they will do away with guns.

Both of our senators out here in California want to do away with guns. They make a big point about the assault weapons and all of this.

But all of those people are surrounded by people with guns. Yes. So it's not as if they don't want people to have guns.

They just don't want some people to have guns, and they want to be the ones who determine who has them and who does not have them.

Their families are protected. But when it comes down to our families, the best we have is hand -to -hand combat, and you better be really good at it.

Because I've heard the old adage, it's not wise to take a knife to a gunfight. It's usually not too wise to take a hand to a gunfight.

We have another listener in White Plains, New York, Bob, who says, do you know if there is any correlation to the strict ban on guns in England and the rise of extreme fundamentalist

Islam in England, where they realize there will be less of a serious threat to them using strength and power there?

Yeah, well, that makes psychological sense, doesn't it? If someone believes that the most you can muster against them will be a kitchen knife, and they have an

AK -47, those are great odds. I had one radio interview a while back.

We have a requirement here in California that for a handgun or for a rifle, the most rounds you're able to have is ten.

Nine in the magazine, one in the chamber. And a woman called in and she asked, well, why would anybody need more than ten rounds?

And I said, well, that's a great question. So here's the scenario. You hear something that goes bump in the night.

Your husband's out of town. You get up and you call 911. And I tried to explain to her, the best way to go to the top of the list in a 911 call is to call 911 and to say,

I'm locked in my room, and this is my address. I'm in my bedroom.

Here's where the bedroom is located. There's somebody in my house. I am armed. And if they try to break down the door and come through the door,

I am going to shoot them. You will go to the top of the list immediately. But the other part of it is, so I said to this woman, okay, you've got ten rounds.

You hear something goes bump in the night. You walk out with your gun in your hand, and there are two 200 -pound men in your living room.

They are not law -abiding citizens. They are criminals by definition, which means they don't obey the law.

Each of them has a handgun containing at least 30 rounds. Do you like those odds?

And I think those are the things it kind of boils down to. I don't like the notion, and I don't think,

I'm convinced that our founding fathers, had they had had the opportunity to fire more than one round in very quick succession, is that they would not have put a limit on, well, you can only have ten rounds.

And again, it's just putting the law -abiding citizen at a decided disadvantage.

If a criminal has a magazine with 100 rounds and you've got ten,

I don't like that, because you've got to stop and you've got to reload if you survive that long.

There are liberals, and perhaps not even people that are consistently liberal.

They may even be conservative on other areas. Even the

Amish and the Mennonite communities are very conservative, and even sometimes bordering on or exceeding the lines of cultic when it comes to strict moral codes and so on.

But they will be people who are pacifist.

But going back to my point, though, there are people who say that we, who are very much in favor of loosening gun control laws, and in favor of law -abiding citizens owning guns, that when we use the whole militia concept from the

Second Amendment, and we use the idea that we can never allow any government to be in control of all of the firearms, that we are being ridiculous in thinking that our government is going to become like Nazi Germany did, or something like that, and that we as citizens are going to overthrow such a government, that this is just a ridiculous science fiction, evil fantasy of the future that will never happen, and that we're fear -mongering and that kind of a thing.

How do you respond to that? Yeah, I think that that's a really sound argument. The only drawback is that the history of the world militates against that.

That Nazi Germany never, in its wildest imagination, the people that lived there thought they would become

Nazi Germany. And the same thing is true of the history of the world. The history of the world has been one of oppression and slavery for those who are willing to take the time to investigate it.

That's why when we have these nations, what was the former Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, they were called that because that was the word for slaves.

And the same thing would be true of biblical history. When you look at what was going on in biblical history, there's a history of slavery, and there's a history of oppression.

And rather than trying to take a rose -colored look at these things, I tried, as a Christian pastor, to take the notion of sin and depravity very seriously.

Sometimes sin and depravity is blatant and open, and other times it's hidden, it's camouflaged, it's oblique.

But it's there, it's always roiling under the surface, and sometimes it roils in a manner that is frightening.

And so I try to be a realist when it comes to this. I have, I own guns.

It is my concerted prayer every day that I would never have to use that gun to take a human life.

I think that would just be very, very hard to do. However, I also believe that it's important for us, and for the

Amish, of course, who have this long history of pacifism, to sit down and to deal with the reality of what would happen if somebody came to assault you and your family.

How does that scenario play out? Are you just going to call 911? Are you just going to pray about it?

Or are you going to do something that is more proactive and try to protect your family?

For me, it's going to be the latter. I've thought this through as a Christian. I see no biblical prohibition whatsoever to defending myself and to defend my family.

If I can get away from a situation like that, if I could run away, even if I had a firearm and not have to fire a shot,

I'd do it. I would try to avoid that as much as I could. But if it came right down to it,

I would do it. And organizations like Gun Owners of America and the

NRA have published so many statistics that point us to, and it depends on who you read, but somewhere in the neighborhood of two to three million times a year, law -abiding citizens simply brandish a gun.

They never fire a shot. And what happens is the assailants turn and run.

I found in the military that the hardest thing to teach a soldier was to run towards the gunfire.

It is counterintuitive. And so if you watch any of these episodes of Pops or any of these other shows at night, you see these armed thugs come into a store or wherever else, and the other person has a gun and starts shooting.

I don't care how heavily armed they are. They duck and cover and they run. So the reason they do that is because they are thugs.

And they are preying on what they consider to be the innocent, the unarmed.

And if I'm convinced that it is a deterrent, that if someone thinks for one moment, if I walk into a bank and I'm going to rob the bank, and there are 15 people in there and maybe 10 of those people are armed and could fire back, they'll think twice about it.

They may still go ahead and do it. But they may walk out, if they are able to walk out, they're going to be heavier when they're carried out because they're going to have lead poisoning.

And CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island wants to know, have you ever heard of Stephen P.

Halbrook's book, Gun Control in the Third Reich, Disarming the Jews and quote -unquote enemies of the state?

I have not read that book by Stephen, but I have a number of his books, and I highly recommend his book.

He has one called The Founders' Second Amendment, The Origins of the Right to Bear Arms.

I have that quoted in my book. Then he has another book that's called That Every Man Be Armed, The Evolution of a

Constitutional Right. Halbrook is a very, very knowledgeable writer, and I think he's...

Gary Kleck is another one that I depend on quite a bit. David Koppel is also very, very good.

And there's a woman named Joyce Malcolm who has a book called Guns and Violence and To Keep and Bear Arms.

She's a Brit, and she was very helpful to me in my research as I was dealing with the background in England of gun rights.

We have an anonymous listener who wants to know if you can recommend a gun that is best for a slightly built woman.

A slightly... Yes. So anonymous, here is my tip of the day.

If you are slightly built, you don't want a handgun, for example, that has a great deal of recoil.

That will be scary. So I would consider a 9mm, or I guess it's okay to give some...

I would say a Beretta, and I give that one because that's what my wife has. She has a

Beretta 9. And the other one would probably be a Smith &

Wesson, a small Smith & Wesson .38. So those are both, and they will feel good in your hand.

There will be less recoil because they're somewhat heavy. And her second question is, can I have Reverend Buzz's address?

While we're on the subject of are you familiar, I have to ask you this because I was just in preparation for the program today.

I listened to it again. Are you familiar with the, I believe it was in 1991, the

Bonson -Atwood debate over gun control? Yes, I am. It took place out here in Southern Cal, in Irvine, near where I am right now.

Yes, yes. I thought that was just tremendous. Well, I was honored and privileged to have known

Greg. I was actually at the hospital the day he died. Pastors don't often get visits, so I tried to be a pastor to the pastors at times.

And it's just amazing when I listened to, he was debating a liberal

Presbyterian minister, and in the course of that debate, the Presbyterian minister was just fabricating things.

I'm not trying to ascribe false motives to the Presbyterian minister, but he probably got those off of some off -the -wall website.

Oh, yeah. And he was citing, I think he cited that one month out here, something like 13 ,000 people had been killed.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was just amazing. But that's the kind of disinformation. For whatever

I think about the anti -gun movement, they have done their indoctrination fairly well because they have promoted so much disinformation.

There's so much fear -mongering that goes on that it's not even remotely funny. I don't know if you guys remember a very, very funny episode of All in the

Family in the 1970s where Archie Bunker is invited onto a local news program to give a response from a listener.

And one of the things he was talking about was how to stop hijacking of airplanes.

And his first comment was, well, I would end the hijacking tomorrow.

First, you've got to arm all your passengers. And I remember the audience erupting with a roarious laughter.

And although I don't think it would be a good idea to actually give firearms to passengers that are getting on a plane, but what do you think?

Are there any places where you think it's inappropriate for people to legally carry on guns with them?

Is there any place that... Well, I would probably, in the case of airlines, when you arm a whole bunch of people and there's something going on in an airplane in particular, if everybody does not have frangible ammunition, but even if they do, the danger of crossfire is imminent.

And so if you could replay the 9 -11 scenario when the hijackers were on the plane, while they're taxiing out, you've got to go through that whole rigmarole of listening to the safety instructions.

And to have the cabin attendants say words to this effect. We welcome aboard our sky marshals and all of our law enforcement personnel on the plane who are all armed.

We also want to remind you that the captain and the co -captain are former

Air Force and they are also armed. So just sit back, ladies and gentlemen, enjoy your flight.

I think there would have been a very different scenario that would have played itself out.

For the rest, though, the predators will prey on areas where they're convinced that people who do have concealed carry permits are not allowed to carry.

Post office, certain workplaces. I know that a lot of workplaces, the people are just afraid of guns and there's no need to be afraid of a law -abiding citizen with a gun.

And schools and things of that nature. I am one of these people who's all in favor of training teachers to be armed and to carry in the classroom, especially in this day and age.

Sure. In the transportation industry, they do not allow guns. Yeah. I mean, and churches.

You stop and think about what Buzz does and what I do. How many times have we read about someone walking in and just walking up and shooting the pastor, walking in and shooting the congregants?

Well, I don't know if you heard the story that an anonymous listener from Alabama emailed, but he said that he asked a pastor friend if he'd pack a gun and the pastor said yes.

And he said, if an intruder came into your congregation and began shooting people, what would you do?

He said, I would duck behind the pulpit. And he goes, why on earth would you do that? And he goes, because I don't want to get hit by the crossfire.

Everybody in my congregation is packing. Well, that really does raise a very good and interesting point.

I think that every congregation ought to have something in place to deal with an active shooter.

Obviously, if you have law enforcement personnel in your congregation, you know, there are only two nations in the world that allow law enforcement personnel to carry off -duty,

Israel and the United States. So if you had something like that, it would behoove the pastor and the leadership in the church to sit down and have a very workable plan where the people would be protected.

I think the hardest thing that would happen if somebody came in and started shooting, and it doesn't matter how much you practice it, people are going to panic.

And we're out of time. And if you could give your website one more time for our listeners. It's one word, gracepresbyterian .net.

Gracepresbyterian .net. Thank you so much, Dr. Ron Grayson. Thank you, Chris. Thanks, Buzz. And I look forward to having you back on the program,

God willing, next Monday, March 7th. Looking forward to it. I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to receiving your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.