Jay Dyer Implodes on the Playground; Yes, Joe, Bishop and Elder are the Same Office

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:28

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line we're back in the big studio we were here on Tuesday we did a program on Ignatius and the recensions and all sorts of fun stuff like that and That brought some interesting people out on social media as we sort of expected that it might and So this morning

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I had a really well, it's a continuing experience. Actually, I guess I I Wanted to get information

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About Jay Dyer Jay Dyer We've mentioned before we respond to stuff. We've played some of his attacks on soul scripture refuted those

01:13

We've talked about the fact that he's you know, he was Orthodox then became Roman Catholic then became Orthodox before that He was a

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Protestant and he's been all over the place And I think at some point in the not too distant past I had mentioned that it seemed to me

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That I was seeing stuff online that he was into a lot of really Odd stuff and it's not like that wouldn't be the first person remember

01:36

Art Sippo It's just that who could forget

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I Did a debate with a Roman Catholic apologist many of Art Sippo back in Toledo, Ohio Early on it was one of the earliest debates that I did.

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I think it was 91 as I recall correctly and You know, not only did he turn out to be completely imbalanced just He he'd leave

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I'm pretty sure I still have one of those teeny tiny micro cassette tapes in a desk drawer someplace

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That we had in an answering machine at our office, which I think was at Rich's house at the time

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Where he would just go on and on and just It was

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Wow, and then later I found out that he actually also wrote these weird pulp fiction type

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Slasher novel things and stuff like that and you know

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When Jimmy Akin isn't running around his cowboy hat, he's doing weird sci -fi stuff

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And you know, do your pets understand what you're saying? Do they communicate with aliens? Stuff like this

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You're running some really interesting people in this way in this line of business. I never thought about doing all that kind of weird stuff um

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So the weird stuff I do is I used to you know, climb Mount Evans on a bike that's pretty weird, but it's not really the same kind of weird

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Anyhow About two years ago

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I was sent a PowerPoint presentation from I think it was the

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Orthodox Church in the United States seemed like a Major organization representing

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Eastern Orthodoxy in the US and One of the the slides

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Was talking about sources of converts and what they identified as Things that got them thinking about and looking at Orthodoxy and the number one thing was

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Jay Dyer So I was like wow, that's That's fascinating.

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It's very very interesting and and There's interest in these things right now as I've said many times.

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I think part of it is Due to Francis and Francis turning a lot of people off to Roman Catholicism Who would be thinking about converting

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Because look he if you if you accept Francis's perspectives There's really no reason for you to convert honestly, why would you so there's that and So This morning.

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I started looking for information about way where Jay Dyer lives. Why because I'm gonna

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Spy him out. No because I'm like, you know,

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I think it'd be really useful if we did a Debate on the subject of Nicaea to the

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Seventh Ecumenical Council 787 called by the Empress Irene Because you do not have an

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Eastern Orthodox theology or ecclesiology without that council It's central

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Icons are central to Eastern Orthodox worship and Nicaea too is in between two councils the area and then

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Frankfurt that condemned the position and I see it too obviously the area couldn't do that because it was before then but the idea of the veneration of icons and and things like that and So, you know in that time period

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The status of Nicaea to as an ecumenical council because the area claimed to be ecumenical as well

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Was in dispute and it took quite some time before at least for the

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East and the West This became a generally settled question

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But I've said it and I'll say it again. Nicaea too is indefensible biblically and historically

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It's indefensible any meaningful standard of History would show you that the

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Apostles did not paint icons I know Thomas Aquinas thought that Luke did but he didn't

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They didn't paint icons. They didn't venerate icons. They didn't kiss icons and they didn't anathematize

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Everybody who didn't which is what Nicaea to did but Nicaea to claimed that they did they claimed

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This is from the time of the Apostles. This has been the universal faith the church and it's just you know

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Biggest most full documentation on the council right here Richard Price's book.

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He himself says a Fair historian would have to say that the iconoclasts

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Were historically right and the council was historically wrong That's the way it is.

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So it's it's indefensible historically and biblically The abuse of texts of Scripture and the uses of forgeries and things like I mean, it's just indefensible and so I'm like, uh,

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I Wonder if we could set up and I've been thinking about this for quite some time but I'm like it might be might be time to You know because I have to plan things well ahead for two reasons.

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First of all The way I travel now Requires me to make plans well ahead so that you know,

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I And I'm not just talking about the fact that debates and stuff that I've been doing

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You know six months to prepare to debate Bart Ehrman and four months

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Robert Price and and things like that but it takes time to get venues and Get advertising out and and then

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I have to tie this stuff in so I'm doing that worldview conference in Nashville with Eli Ayala and Jason Lyle Well It took

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Jason Lyle's manager lady. He's very good at this stuff Fair amount of work to tie all that stuff together because when you're driving you've got to You know figure out okay

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I'm gonna get here then get there then get there then get there and Well, I have enough time to travel from here to here and you know, there it does add some complications along those lines and So you have to have enough time for preparation

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You have to have enough time to find a venue find people that are interested in the topic that you're doing and things like that And so I'm like, well, you know

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Thinking down the rest of the year there. There's sort of as a time slot toward the end of the year maybe That something could be could be worked in but probably early next year and It's just it's just respectful to try to get this stuff

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Scheduled out as as best you can, you know, sometimes you can't always do it the the two debates we just did were put together pretty fast

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You know to sort of fill an empty slot there that Weather -wise, I'm not sure

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I'm gonna be trying to fill that that time period next year. Whoo. That was pretty crazy anyway so I Got on Twitter this morning

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X, whatever you want to call it and I just sort of generally said Does anybody you know,

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I started looking for Jay Dyer and Nothing was coming up and so I just put in Jay Dyer orthodoxy and started searching messages and eventually

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I found The reason that I couldn't find his stuff is he had me blocked. I Don't remember us having any

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Exchanges in the past. I mean we have like I said reviewed stuff that he's said on solo scripture and things like that but I Was preemptively blocked.

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Well, okay fine. So I Find I click on you know someone there's a message and I can click on something and I and this is what comes up and I'm not sure where rich went but This is this is what comes up and I'll just be honest.

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Okay, you know says Jay Dyer pop culture theology and geopolitical analysis but There's a lot of weird stuff in in that graphic, you know, his face is green and there's space aliens and Space creatures and it sort of looks like there is one

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Orthodox guy back there, I guess but you know Hollywood and Jays analysis calm and yeah, it just I don't know looks

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Really weird to me very strange and then the description author comedian

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Comedian That was a new one on me, I mean, I think some of his arguments can solo scripture or comical

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Maybe he's just expanded out from that. I don't know but host of the Alex Jones show

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No, I don't. I don't watch Alex Jones. I don't I don't know writer for Sam Hyde show never heard of it

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Tucker is special No idea CHO cube Chuck.

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I don't Sorry TV show Hollywood decoded

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Ma in philosophy and literature all but thesis I guess is what he's saying there

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And I'm like Is this the same guy is this actually

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Jay Dyer Or is this a Spoof or I mean because that background doesn't look overly serious to me

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It could be a spoof account. I don't know. So I threw it out there and Said is this

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The Orthodox apologist Jay Dyer guy Because I'd like to get in touch with him.

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I'd like to find out where he lives and if he'd be willing if he'd be interested in doing a debate on the

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Second Council of Nicaea and I Commented to somebody else later. I commented that I'd also be willing to do two

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Debates and so, you know one night would be I'd be in on the defensive and the other night he'd be defending

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Nicaea, too And so I threw that out there and immediately, you know, you start getting all sorts of interesting

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Rejoinders and of course I had to basically say since I'm blocked I'm sure some of the his followers who are already commenting

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Would will let him know and Put it out there and You know went about my business with other things that I've got

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I've got going on What ended up happening is shortly after all that I Get a response from him and His response is you have a gay lisp and wear

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Cosby sweaters Gay is spelled GAE You have a gay lisp and and wear

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Cosby sweaters and then down below I asked this Metro -sexual pastor to debate essence energy and the philio philio quay

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ADS for years and now he wants an in -person RV debate Whatever that is in a year on a wholly different topic, lol

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And then and then I should have left this up here, sorry about that Look, let me let me show you some of the stuff here then on his current

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Thing here First of all, he reposted something from 2020 the first father lists the

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Canaanite Testaments have as Have today was st. Athanasius. So 300 plus years of no

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Canon. I mean, it's just so simplistically silly By the way, his old has a can is not the

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Protestant can and it's out there on the Catholic in Ergo soul scooter isn't true It's just This is so bad that you just just go

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Wow and so, of course, he's doing the Lee McDonald thing, but then he has a

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Debate Calvinism that's gone. So maybe my my uh, here we go calling all

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Cosby sweater Calvinist slash Muslims same difference same difference

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Evangelicals Protestants Roman Catholics atheists pagans Gnostics Hebrew roots Mormons, etc. Open debate in 15 minutes.

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Come smash me and So yeah, and then and he said he also sent something to me try to contain your embarrassing gay lisp when you enunciate, please

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And then I won't read all of this which you can see it for yourself Stop whining and beep boomer you ditch it out, but can't take it hop on this space now responding to me.

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So I Want to I want to start off with an apology because at some point Today, I said something about people

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Behaving like It was the sixth grade playground. I Want to apologize to all sixth graders.

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I meant the third grade Playground because that's where Jay Dyer is. He's on the third grade playground.

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This is not an adult male Okay, this is not anyone that should be taken seriously by anybody on anything.

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I Mean you put together this kind of language and behavior with the stuff in his bio

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And yeah, he's a comedian about everything That's just the only thing you should do when

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Jay Dyer starts talking is laugh because that's what he's attempting to do is make you laugh so I'm just I'm thinking back to that Orthodox PowerPoint presentation and I'm going um

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Hey, could I? Could I say something to the leaders to the people who actual have actual positions in the

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Orthodox Church in the United States? You need to understand something. You may be happy that Jay Dyer I'm just waiting for the

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Rich is rich is playing with the cameras now and he's making them move around and things like that And it's

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I guess now he's going to try to try to send her it up now I guess is what's happening. So let me up.

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Let me say to the the leadership of the Orthodox Church United States You may be enjoying the

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Conversion influx That you recognize Jay Dyer has helped you with I mean he's helped you with a social media presence and stuff like that but you need to understand who you've got here and you need to understand that You've got a comedian and We learned a long time ago what you win them with is what you win them, too and These converts to come through a

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Jay Dyer type person will not be with you very long Because they're just looking for the new cool thing and when you're no longer the cool thing

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They're gonna leave they're gonna go someplace else They will not be long -term because it's not the the essence of your theology

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It's the coolness of the dude and this this is the kind of coolness. That's the third grade coolness

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Not actual coolness, but third grade behavior So Just a little warning to you.

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I wouldn't be making your budgets out based upon these folks continuing in your fellowship

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Because I think they're gonna go on their way To Whatever it is gets exciting the next time around.

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Maybe it's some space alien cult or something. I don't know but Wow, so there you go this guy all he wants to do is

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Have and this is the kind of debating that I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever because it'll have no value

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After a very short period of time It's the come on and let's have a screaming match at each other's stuff and that's what gets very unserious young people all excited but it doesn't last long and Yeah, I got no interest in that but he has no interest in really debating

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I've never seen him and I asked other people Have you ever seen

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Jay Dyer do a formal moderated public debate where he actually had to answer direct questions

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Where you had a moderator you had equal time you couldn't talk over each other all the time and we actually had to you know, look at the other person and and See an audience in front of you and that kind of stuff and nobody could name anything.

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I've never seen anything Maybe there are some out there. I'm not saying there aren't I've just never seen it vast majority of his stuff he's

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Not unlike some other people I could name Just you know, I'm just gonna put my phone over here like this and it's gonna shoot right up my nostrils

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But I don't care because I'm gonna do a two and a half hour thing because everybody likes to hear me talk And maybe

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I'll put a bunch of cool books behind me. Well, you know, it is fun to have cool books behind you I've done stuff in my library before and that's pretty cool

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But I use it as a background and I didn't use it as just a you know, I actually use those books That's why they're there

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So Evidently Jay Dyer has no interest in actual debating

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And if Nicaea 2 is all that cool You would think he'd want to defend it.

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He'd want to take on all comers And in a full length not just a you know,

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I'd say three hours minimum Debate would would would really be the minimum for something like because there's just so much information

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There's so many directions you have to go go to you have to you know, what was Empress Irene's role

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How many people at the council were afraid to have their eyes put out before they were thrown into jail? Well, we'll probably we'll do some stuff on this in the future now

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But That's what happened to her son She was very pro icon

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Everybody at that council knew what the Empress wanted done Okay, it was it was a rubber -stamp party it was politically motivated

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So and that explains just the Rampant abuse of Scripture and the the use of argumentation that is just Jehovah's Witness level that really is

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Jehovah's Witness level stuff. So There you go. It's been an interesting interesting day for me

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In light of that kind of stuff and the weirdness going on there so anyway

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That is interesting for another reason and that is

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I didn't Get around to this I wanted to mention this and and someone pulled it up a

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Article appeared in crisis magazine .com of Just very recently and for some reason my program here says sinking temporarily paused, but I've been up but uh, oh

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I I've sort of lost We're having net problems or my computers having their problems. Anyway This has to do with the

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Pew research came out just recently and Fundamentally it says only 19 % of Americans self -identify as Catholic down from 24 % in 2007

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That this is a 20 % decrease and But he says actually the numbers get worse for Catholics the more you look into them

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This was the big number now according to Pew for every 100 people that became

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Protestant and look It's been pointed out many many times before Protestant is not a useful term historically it it had to do with the minority objecting against the majority in the

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Holy Roman Empire and the Diet of Spire and all the rest of that stuff and most people even know that they think it's

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Protestants, people are Protestants It had nothing to do that anyway But it's just it's so vague it's just not

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Catholic not Orthodox So it it doesn't tell you about Belief in any way, so it's pretty useless but for every 100 people that became

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Protestant and I I would assume that the vast majority of those were becoming evangelical

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Protestants because the mainline denominations are dying a thousand deaths 180 people left that's almost it's almost two to one

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Now again, that's not helpful Because the mainline denominations are dying so people are fleeing the

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ELCA PCUSA United Church of Christ ELCA did

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I mention them? I don't know Episcopalian etc. etc. The the leftist

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Quote -unquote Protestant dominations are dying. So how much of that 180 is them

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No one's joining them. They don't even have natural growth anymore They're just gonna go the way of the dodo bird pretty soon

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So but it's still two to one almost two to one 100 join 180 leave and I would think the 100 they're joining are joining evangelical churches and 150 those leaving are are leaving mainline denominational churches, so it's

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Hard hard to say but but that's not the main thing For Roman Catholicism For every 100 people who join the

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Catholic Church 840 leave In the

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US that's a that's a seven hundred and forty person gap

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That's massive that is absolutely positively massive and he digs into the numbers and it's it's

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He says only 29 % of self -identifying Catholics attend

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Mass weekly So only 29 % of the 19 % of Americans who identify as Catholic actually fulfill the

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Sunday obligation He says I think it's even worse the Pew survey didn't doesn't ask about going to confession

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But based on other surveys I've seen over the years the total number of self -identifying Catholics who go to confession at least once a year

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Is around 10 % that look folks if you take that theology seriously if you really believe in the

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Mass You really believe that priest is a priest if you take the theology seriously and only 10 %

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Are going to confession in a year He says let's be optimistic and say it's actually around 20 % and that all those

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Catholics also go to Mass weekly That's still you know, the numbers are tiny tiny and going down For their own

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Catholic Church and I mentioned earlier, I think one of the reasons for the interest in the

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Eastern Orthodox stuff is that right now most people look at Rome and they They know enough about Francis to know that if they're looking for the church standing in the mists of time

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He's much more like party -hardy Francis. He's more with it. He's got the with it modern vibe and Not really all that concerned about ancient tradition and things like that And so I think that's part of what's going on there, but these numbers are huge now

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I had some conversation with somebody and a guy commented

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And he said well actually we have all these people are they're becoming priests and all this but it's talking about very small little groups

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And I you know, I get that there are very strongly dedicated Little groups out there some of which are not all that Orthodox in comparison to what

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Rome allegedly teaches But you know if you watch the coming home network all the time

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You'd you'd think that there is just this, you know We're down to the last ten Protestants and they're just about to you know

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Start the classes so they could become Catholics on Easter And that's that's that's not how it's working one for every 100 to join 840 leave and You know that's in the

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US in Nations like Italy, but you think let's get the Catholic country the secular country

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I've only been there once and I was stunned even then

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At the number of boarded up Roman Catholic churches Or Catholic churches that have been turned into nightclubs

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Catholic Church has been turned into Restaurants Catholic churches that were becoming mosques

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And in formerly Protestant nations that's happening with the mosques to secularism kills everything

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But You know, there's a lot of rumors running around that the Vatican is basically bankrupt

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You know, they're gonna have to put a big old ladder up there and chisel some of the gold off that Matthew 16 promise in the couple a couple of of the of st

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Peter's and sell it off to try to make the the budget balance or something like that They can't just they can't do what the

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United States does just print a bunch of worthless money Which is what we're doing these days anyways, so fascinating stuff important stuff

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Next I'm gonna be I'm gonna I'm gonna try to be brief here because I want to get into the text.

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I want to I'm gonna throw There's a accordance I want to address a deep biblical topic

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Um Unfortunately, I can't bring this up because the Internet's no longer working for me So yeah, let's

30:27

I'm gonna skip it. I'll I'll address it when the Internet's working for me again next time and We'll look at the

30:35

Michael Spangler stuff to see Provide some guy response.

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I I'll just I'll just say a A Article came up an article dropped recently

30:53

That Was titled some long line true manliness

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Okay, everything just died We still here

31:13

Mmm Doesn't look like it my screens are flashing and well, that's the third time.

31:25

It's gone blank and then come back. So I Don't know what's going on there, but I managed to connect to my phone.

31:35

Anyways, that's nice We've got a storm blowing in folks a big big windstorm with rain and stuff like that and Yeah water falls down out of the sky once in a while it's it we've been told it's really necessary and helpful but it's blowing in right now, so I think

31:55

I think it may have just hit and We've had electrical difficulties in the past.

32:01

Are we still streaming rich? Well rich just left so I have no idea.

32:07

What's what's going on? Are we still streaming rich? Oh Yes, oh so something did go.

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Oh, yeah. Well you heard the big bang, right? No Okay, all right, well we will we will press on and I'll pretend like we're still talking to people

32:36

It's hard to do but I'll do my best Anyways, there is a Michael Spangler put out an article called true manliness and Christian anti -semitism and You know, some of the titles are anti -semitism is not evil

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Anti -semitism is Christian He jumps into all sorts of anti -semitism in church history anti -semitism is manly

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And that's because the Jews are the sworn enemies of Christ and that the one thing just completely missing for this article something called the gospel and understanding of the gospel and understanding of of how salvation takes place and the fact that Everyone outside of Christ is the enemy of Christ who is not in submission to him whether it's

33:31

Jews or anybody else and This is what's really vile and disgusting about this stuff is a you're putting a religious veneer on top of this kind of Ethnic animus and you're using religious.

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Oh, I don't care whether somebody's Jewish or not It's just so you know, they killed Jesus and therefore

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Well, they didn't Well be upon us and our children and you know all this kind of stuff but What's really sad is how many people in?

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What we would normally identify as solid Christian churches aren't able to identify How this stuff is wrong and and not recognize that All of us

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Outside of Christ our enemies of Christ Kingdom none of these guys have

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Paul's Desire for the salvation of the Jews in Romans 9 they don't it's just obvious But here's here's here's the thing

34:43

Where is the pushback? from the very people that last year we were going, you know, it

34:51

Seems like you guys are getting really soft on this thing. It sort of looks like I mean you're talking about you know the

34:58

Jews as you know as prisoners of war at Auschwitz and that they weren't prisoners for and and You seem to be

35:08

Playing footsie. Oh and in this article, we stand with stone choir. We stand with Cory Mahler man a tomorrow by the way

35:18

Chris Rosenthal is going to be the pirate Christian radio did did the interview with Cory Mahler?

35:25

I'm looking forward to it. I'm It's supposed to come out tomorrow evening So I may have to wait till Saturday to actually get to sitting and listen to it while I'm peddling away or something like that but That's gonna be fast thing.

35:39

But you know spangling these guys Opening the door to cooperation with The stone choir cult and stuff like that Where are the other voices?

35:53

You can't be quiet You're either gonna come out. Oh, you're gonna make us go through a struggle session

36:00

Hey, this guy's saying it. Are you gonna respond or you're gonna remain silent back?

36:06

It's really the question whether you're gonna Do the do the right thing there

36:11

I we will we will see we will we will see We may go through that whole article at some point and take a look at it

36:20

You're back full blast We just lost a few things along along the way. So Yes, so if you miss something it'll be in the recording and it'll mainly just be me asking rich what you missed

36:35

Because as I mentioned storm coming into Phoenix right now and All of our electronic stuff in Phoenix sort of gets used to just the same old same old every day

36:45

You start blowing stuff around and have water falling out of the sky and everything starts getting weird Okay, I wanted you know, and I might be able to do it now

36:58

Because it's It's working let me let me just let me just press on it and say because before the program started

37:05

I could not Bring this file up. I Couldn't bring up YouTube. I couldn't nothing was working right at all

37:13

So I just asked it to do it. And again, it's still It's still going. Nope, not gonna do it

37:19

The only way I'm gonna get to do this is if I totally reset the computer and I'm not gonna do that in the middle of the program so I won't get to play it for you, but I if I recall correctly it

37:29

Was 40 minutes Into the debate. I think it's right around 40 minutes into the debate.

37:40

We I Was cross -examining I just started cross -examining

37:47

Joe Hashemeyer, this is in the debate on the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice and I pointed out that the terms

38:03

Episcopal and Presbyterian plural Elder and Bishop refer to the same office in the

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New Testament. He said no, they don't no. No, I I I dispute them and so I'm not sure if most people understood why that's relevant

38:30

The Roman Catholic position is the the presbyterian That that developed into the priesthood now, there's a perfectly good word for priest in Greek It's never used of an office in the

38:44

New Testament You either have the priesthood of all believers a kingdom of kings and priests unto

38:52

God who offer sacrifice of praise But the term priest is not an office in the

39:00

New Testament Anywhere in the New Testament No one would dispute that I can't can't believe anybody would dispute that But Joe Hashemeyer is like no

39:11

Episcopal and Presbyterian Do not refer the same office and I'm like, but they're used interchangeably.

39:17

No, I dispute them. Okay So I want to look at This particular subject

39:27

Using the text of Scripture and show this is something I think People need to be able to see because I Remember I was in seminary.

39:38

I Was about halfway through seminary when I came Smack dab up against the wall of the fact that in the

39:49

New Testament see I was raised in fundamentalist Baptist churches and in fundamentalist

39:56

Baptist churches the church is run by the deacon board and they hire a pastor and they can fire a pastor and that pastor lives in the constant fear of Being kicked out the back door because he doesn't do what the deacons want to do on every single little thing.

40:15

It's just It's part of reality of life in those contexts and I remember in seminary

40:25

Working through acts and it's like wait a minute The Apostles in Acts chapter 14

40:34

They strengthened the churches by appointing presbyter

40:40

Roy elders in the churches not a pastor not a deacon board and You know,

40:50

I I had never ever ever thought about About Ecclesiology form the church you assume what you've been raised with right pretty much everybody does and That's when

41:05

I realized but in the New Testament the local churches have multiple elders

41:13

They don't have a pastor and Then a deacon board the deacons actually run the church

41:24

The Apostles strengthened the church by appointing elders plural in the church.

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I Remember that happened and I don't think it was this text. I think it was the axe text, but this is an axe to This is a good example.

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It will give you a couple examples where without question without dispute The Apostles that the inspired text treats those two terms

41:51

Episcopal plural presbyter Roy plural Bishops overseers elders.

41:57

It's the same office. There's no question about it and If it gets differentiated later on that is well that is either a departure from Apostolic teaching or if you

42:17

Start with the assumption that The church has the authority to develop apostolic teaching and to change it and alter it over time

42:28

Then that's you know what the Roman Catholics gonna say is that well Yeah, we don't necessarily have evidence of this within the

42:36

New Testament But over the first hundred years by the time you get the Cyprian you've got priests it's you know, and it was the presbytery that that developed into that and So it's not a problem for them that you can go yeah, but you do you do realize that this means that There's no we know what the

42:59

Qualifications are for deacons the deacons are not a high position in the Roman Catholic hierarchy we want we know what the qualifications of a deacon are but we don't know what the qualifications for a priest are or Or an archbishop or a

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Pope or anything else, nope don't need to because we're the church and so we can just Do whatever we want

43:24

So we have here on the screen Acts 2017 now from Miletus.

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He sent to Ephesus. This is Paul and Called to him the elders of the church so you can see yeah, you can see that on that screen

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You can see in the Greek over there Presbyterus and so he called the presbyteros teis ecclesios the elders the presbyters of the church so Remember Paul has spent many years in Ephesus.

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This is a very dear church to him It was very important in his plans for the evangelism of Asia Minor and So he's called them to him.

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So who are they these the the the presbytero Why didn't he call the bishops

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Because if they're two different offices If if if the assertion is that the

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Apostles distinguished, why did he only call the lower? Office because that's what it's going to become over time

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Why does he only call the presbyters? He doesn't call the Episcopal? Well, the answer is going to become fairly clear as we look at it and when they came to him he starts talking to him about serving with them and Declaring to you

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Everything is profitable publicly teaching house to house So many testifies about Jews and Greeks about repents toward God faith or Jesus Christ and now he's on his way

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Jerusalem Holy Spirit testifies change and afflictions Await me. I don't

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Consider my life any dear to myself. I want to testify solemnly the gospel grace of God and now behold

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I tell I know all of you among whom I went about preaching the kingdom will no longer see my face

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Therefore I testify to you this day I'm innocent of the blood of all where I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God now believe you me the sermons that you can do out of this section are amazing one of my fun overseas traveling memories

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Was I opened this text up in? Switzerland to the students

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At the TMAI school there I was there. I taught

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Hebrews for them as well and but there was a it was a chapel service and I got to open this text and it it is it's rich and it is deep.

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It really really is But please note verse 28, who's this all addressed to who did these were the

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Presbyteroi, he's the presbyters the Church of Ephesus. They're the ones he's called They've come

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Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you what

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What are you waving at rich I'm trying I'm trying to teach people from the

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Greek over here and You're waving at me from behind cameras. Okay, folks. You just don't understand what

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I have to go through you just Yeah, you don't I'm not sure if you folks are slipping him some 20s behind the you know, something that just stood

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You know, I don't know. I don't know but he wants to he wants to be

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Anonymous back there But you know when you're going like this So anyway

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Among which the Holy Spirit has made you what? Episcopal well, it's not in the nominative, but Made you elders bishops overseers

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To shepherd the Church of God would you purchase with his own blood? I? Know that after my departure savage wolves are coming among you not sparing the flock among and from among your own selves

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Men will arise speaking perverse things draw with the disciples after them these are the leaders of the church at Ephesus and To Luke And to the

47:43

Apostle Paul There is no difference between a presbyter and Episcopal none

47:54

You can call them overseers you can call them bishops whatever English term you want to use but Clearly Episcopal and presbyteros are

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Interchangeable in this text you cannot escape that You can't go well

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Some of the bishops came along They hadn't been invited but but they came along.

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No It's the same group being referred to by two different terms that are used interchangeably with one another

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There isn't any question about this and This term overseer, you know normally in Acts for example in the

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Acts 13 Council It's the Apostles and the presbyters No Episcopal There were no bishops

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No Presbyter Bishop same office

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Same office. That's the only way to read it and Nobody that would read this without later developments clouding their thinking whatever comes a conclusion

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That there is a distinction between these You just wouldn't get there they're being used absolutely

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Interchangeably now, let's see here if I have Yeah Now we know as I said that there are requirements their qualifications in Scripture so in first Timothy 3 1 it is a trustworthy saying if any man aspires to the office of Episcopate an overseer a

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Bishop he desires a good work. So this is an office in the early church and so an

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Episcopal Must be above reproach

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Husband of one wife temperate sensible respectable hospitable able to teach not addicted wine or pugnacious

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But consider it peaceful freedom love money, you know the whole listing of qualifications

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That are presented here in first Timothy chapter 3 well first Timothy 3 isn't the only place where we have this

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Come on oh, I'm sorry In Titus 1 5

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So Titus chapter 1 first Timothy 3 are the two places where we have the two offices of the church mentioned to us and The qualifications so we have no qualifications ever given

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Anywhere else now think about that Paul's writing to Titus and He he wants him, you know for this reason

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I left you in Crete that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders pres butyrus in Every city as I directed you.

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Well, that's what Paul had done in Acts of 18. That's how he was strengthening the church All right, so this is what he's what he's doing we have the pres butyrus

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There's beauty boy in the nominative The elders and here is if any man is beyond reproach husband to one wife.

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Oh That's what we had in first Timothy 3 Right Let's let's go back here a second wasn't that in first Timothy 3

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Yeah, but that's Episcopal oh It's the same thing

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Yes, it is. There is any question. I mean if if the apostolic content of The New Testament is relevant.

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It's the exact same office and the exact same qualifications so he's appointing pres butyrus and Then you drop down to verse 7 it says so namely if any man's beyond reproach the husband wife having faithful children who are not accused dissipation or rebellious for the what

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Episcopal overseer must be beyond reproach as God Stewart not self -willed not quick -tempered not addicted one

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Exact same qualifications as first in the chapter 3 and in Titus complete interchangeability of the terms so if you want to know what the

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Apostles taught About those two terms. It's one off It's one office and remember in Acts 20

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That these elders these presbyters these Episcopal were to shepherd the flock of God What turn do we get from Shepherd pastor

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Pastor Elder Bishop Overseer all the same thing all the same office

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No, no difference between them at all so if the apostles can do this

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What do you say? about later tradition

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That confuses these offices and in fact Develops one not not not the

53:52

Episcopate But Instead the presbyterous which of course where you get presbytery

54:06

If you can't say they're the same thing now you're gonna have to distinguish them and then the presbyters basically disappear and become priests and and Heshemeyer's argument was well, but they do things that only priests can do that there is the classic example of Anachronistic Liturgical eisegesis you create an office that you experience now and Then you read the

54:42

New Testament in light of your current experience and say well But they are doing things that there are priests do now that must mean they were priests or you've developed stuff that the early church had no concept of and in the process have opened the door to just a

55:00

Tremendous amount of error tremendous amount of error So Most of the time in Acts when you see the

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Apostles with the elders of the church. It's presbytery. It's not Episcopal But when they're discussing it, it's very plain that historically meeting with the

55:22

Ephesian elders writing to Titus writing to Timothy interchangeable office completely interchangeable off now

55:31

I've spent 15 minutes on that and I didn't have 15 minutes

55:39

To try to work through all that If you were to do a debate,

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I don't even know how someone would would debate the idea that These two terms actually refer to two different offices in the

55:52

New Testament You'd have to do the Newman and had to slap Newman on it which is the development hypothesis and you just you just give to the church the ability to develop these things and That's how it worked but if you want what the

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If you want to have it the way that the Apostles Believed the

56:17

New Testament should be organized Then you've got to recognize that these are the these are the offices

56:24

So there you go. I hope that that is useful to you and helpful to you you may have never yeah,

56:34

I think I think a lot of when sound reformed churches preach through the pastoral epistles when they preach through If they do a series on ecclesiology, which they should

56:56

But it's not all that popular to do and let's be honest very often even in good churches the pressure is

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To meet felt needs Okay, people say well I want this and I want this emphasis and I think we've got too much of that and none of them

57:23

The result of that is very often Important topics such as ecclesiology just get ignored because It's not so much that they're super controversial as It is they're just not super exciting

57:41

But you can see they're foundational they're vitally important, I mean when I think back at some of the stuff that my dad experienced

57:50

Because he was always in a On an unbiblical

57:58

Ecclesiology, I mean he got kept getting kicked out of churches by deacons that he had led to the Lord. I Mean, it's horrific, but it happened all the time

58:07

And I saw it happen. Just think of the church splits I've told you that time.

58:12

I went to visit the Andersonville prison with David King and We drive through these little cities and You know, you'd you'd drive back past first Baptist Church.

58:24

You turn the corner Here's the second Baptist Church and in middle of towns third Baptist Church, you start leaving town there's fourth

58:29

Baptist Church and man you get out in the countryside and there's a seventh Baptist Church and and You know, they all split over just really stupid teeny tiny things

58:41

I'm not saying having a plurality of elders solves all that but man it really You know, the deacons aren't supposed to be running the church

58:50

They're really not Those qualifications are given are for those who are to be the ones preaching and teaching and and we do see distinctions

59:01

There are there are some who do most of the teaching there are others that do ruling so there are distinctions

59:06

But it's not amongst it's not between the deacons and the elders. It's amongst the elders. There is a recognition There are some they're given certain

59:14

Capacities and abilities that others don't have and There are certain basic level requirements that everyone should fulfill but there's there's obviously

59:26

Some people can do this really well and somebody can do that really well and you know double honor to this person who does that and so but these aren't different offices and Once we stop following the

59:37

Apostles at that point We get into some major major major major problems and think about how many

59:45

Situations you have seen Just over the past couple years where you've got this guy at the top and He he may have an elder board.

59:57

He may have elders but he's picked them all and They're just yes men.

01:00:03

And so he does whatever he wants and he can always say well, hey, you know the elders approved of it You need when the elders are in unity

01:00:15

That's a beautiful thing but there's a difference between unity and lockstep and One things

01:00:23

I really appreciate about where I am right now is the elders don't agree on everything and so we have to have discussions and It's good to hear another perspective especially when you have so much respect

01:00:36

When you know this other person man, you know many hours they invested in that situation there in that situation there

01:00:42

They so live so self -sacrificially and stuff like that Then you listen more clearly and it can really help you to see things that you

01:00:50

Otherwise would just automatically go into a defensive mode and I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that It's helpful

01:00:58

It really really is it's it doesn't solve every problem You know, that's we live in a fallen world but having a plurality of elders if and one of the big developments in when when people start reforming and They they want to bring their church under The full rulership of Christ from his word

01:01:24

Trying to develop that eldership is a real challenge And I just can't tell you how many you know, especially southern

01:01:31

Baptist churches that You know, they start fighting out about the 1689 the 1689

01:01:37

Linden Baptist Confession plurality of elders But man the resistance from the the old troops in the church can end up resulting in church splits and Just all sorts of really messy stuff and you sort of have to warn folks

01:01:56

This is probably coming be prepared. It's gonna be a long process, but it's neat to hear We just had our first elder, you know, we're going to the plurality of elders and I just had our first elder

01:02:07

Installed and it's it's such a blessing and it's great to see that stuff. It really it really really is I've seen that many many times over the over the years and so it's it's exciting to see so so there there you have the biblical evidence of the fact that Episcopal and presbyteros in the

01:02:26

New Testament referred to the same office the only way around that is to assume that the

01:02:32

New Testament does not give you a consistent inspired understanding of any terms

01:02:38

That Paul contradicts Luke or contradicts Peter or you know all sorts of stuff like that That's really the only way around it.

01:02:46

If if you take the entire New Testament testimony It's really unquestionable it it really really is so there you go okay,

01:02:55

I don't hear thunderous rain yet, so that's that's helpful, but Apologize for the little group there in the middle, but all the screens went off the everything started beeping and everything else so You know you have stuff like that happening.

01:03:11

So there you go Let's see. Today is Thursday. So unless something wild and crazy and zany happens that Requires us to do a program.

01:03:22

We Lord willing. We'll see you next week. I think Didn't you say I'm probably picking up the unit next week?

01:03:29

Ish oh, that's yeah make it to pick it up next week not to start prepping or anything like that, but next trips coming up Man did we put on the website we put the first one on the website.

01:03:47

We don't have the second one yet, I think anyway, April 4th Don't by the way do not assume

01:03:58

If you want to travel and like stay the night and then go home there's a problem the April 4th debate in Livingston on the

01:04:05

King James translation I Discovered while trying to make my RV Reservations I discovered that There is a big concert in town the same weekend and All the hotels are filled up.

01:04:24

The RV parks are filled up I'm gonna stay in 45 minutes away 45 miles away.

01:04:30

I forgot which one it was. I'm gonna be staying in Baton Rouge There's just nothing available out in Livingston So keep that in mind if you're coming the traffic may be ugly because I think the concert same night as the debate

01:04:43

Or at least one of the concerts is Leonard's Leonard Skinner is going to be part of it and someone told me they're all dead anyways

01:04:52

Much You know, I all those old bands are still going there

01:04:57

They're either, you know chugging Geritol or they've been replaced by, you know, third -generation grandchildren or something.

01:05:04

I don't know But Joe Biden's new thing maybe maybe it is nobody'd come to a

01:05:09

Joe Biden concert now, it's not gonna happen Anyway, so that April 4th one just just be aware of that that you know, if you have major Travel arrangements keep be aware of that the hope the the restaurants are going to be full

01:05:24

Yeah, just just keep that in mind and then in Calhoun The next week on the 10th.

01:05:31

I'm unaware of any major Entertainment events getting in the way of the

01:05:36

Romans 9 debate. So Probably shouldn't have any any difficulties with with that one

01:05:44

Yeah, we need to get some stuff up on that. So aka Richardson, so So yeah,

01:05:51

I've talked about on Twitter, but I don't I haven't seen any graphics or things like that to post yet, but I'm sure they'll be coming along soon enough.