April 14, 2017 Show with Jerry Bergman on “How Darwinism Corrodes Morality”

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We are supposed to be interviewing Jerry Bergman today, Dr. Jerry Bergman, who is an author, including the book that we are supposed to be addressing today, How Darwinism Corrodes Morality, but we have not yet heard from Dr. Bergman for some reason, so I'm going to go to an early station break, and if you could be patient while we try to locate Dr. Bergman, that would be very much appreciated, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question about Darwinian evolution and how Darwinianism, or should I say Darwinism, corrodes morality, you can email us at chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, that's chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and give us a question, and please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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That's chefexclusive .com. Welcome back and I believe we do have Dr. Jerry Bergman on the air. Dr. Jerry Bergman has nine degrees including seven graduate degrees, has studied for his past college work in biology, chemistry, psychology, and evaluation and research.

A prolific writer and teacher of biology, chemistry, and biochemistry at Northwest State in Archbold, Ohio, and he's discussing his book, How Darwinism Corrodes Morality, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Jerry Bergman.

Thank you very much. It's great to be here. And sorry for the confusion. I don't know what has happened with the miscommunication, but I'm glad that we were having God smile upon us today and he worked things out.

Okay, that's good. Yes. Well, first of all, before I even get into the subject of Darwinism and the book, I want to get some background from you. I want to hear about how you were raised, what kind of religious background you were from, if any, and how our sovereign Lord eventually, through his providence, drew you to himself and saved you.

Yeah, the.

Important thing in my life was, partially my background, of course, my father was an atheist, and my mother was, well, she switched back and forth to several different faiths, but developed Alzheimer's relatively early, and so the main thing that I'm an atheist as well as my dad, and that was a lot to do with the influence of education.

I was a science major for many of my degrees, and when you study science, basically the background of science is Darwinism, and I naively accepted that, and as time went on, though, I began to question it more and more and realize that there are big problems with Darwinism, and when you realize that, you realize that if Darwinism doesn't explain how we got here, then what does?

You really only have two choices. Either we were made by God, intelligent designer, or we were made by time, chance, unforeseen occurrence, in other words, contagious, so when I remove one possibility, there was really only one basic one left, and that was, indeed, we have a designer, and then my feeling was I had an obligation to find out who that designer is, and, of course, I explored different traditions, and the main one that I explored, as others have as well, by the way, there are many people who have gone around the same path that I did, and I explored the evidence in, of course, so many, many ways that, indeed, is the Word of God, and, indeed, the Word of God leads me into Christianity, and, basically, it's like watering over, going to the end of the dam, and, finally, they all being born again, so you make that commitment, you make that jump, and, indeed, I did that, but as a result of, in my case, and many cases, a lot of study, research, and reading, I did not have a Pauline on the road to Damascus, from people I know, I find most people don't.

They, basically, because they do talk about the importance of the evidence and the importance of being able to defend the faith that is within us, and, therefore, I stress, since my conversion, apologetics, that, indeed, apologetics, understanding the evidence for Christianity, is the key way most of us become convinced of, indeed, the reality of Christ and His sacrifice for us, and the basic Christian message.

Well, praise God for that testimony.

It's refreshing to hear that science actually led you to believe in a Creator, and, eventually, the Lord used that to bring you to your knees and cry out to Jesus Christ for your eternal life, and the reason why I'm saying how refreshing that is, is, obviously, we have heard stories about many, many folks, perhaps, especially young people, who, in either high school or college, may begin their entrance into school as Bible believers because of their upbringing.

They may even be Old Earth, I'm sorry, they may even be Young Earth creationists, and they leave school being Darwinians. They totally abandon what they were raised with, because they believe that Darwinism is the only intellectual, sophisticated, scientific, and true explanation for the origins of the Earth, and it's absolutely amazing to me how this has become, the origin of the species has become, basically, the Bible of so many scientists, when Darwin himself wasn't really an accomplished scientist,.

Was he? Well, no, he wasn't. In fact, his only degree was in theology, and he did a lot of experiments, but he did experiments on things like worms and insects that are consumed by plants, the fly trap, for example, and so he did some experiments, but none of his experiments really helped support his basic idea of Darwinism, and we call it Darwinism today, but he wasn't the one who totally originated the theory.

He basically was the one who was able to convince the scientific world, or much the scientific world, that indeed his idea of the view of Darwinism is, Darwin recognized correctly that there's a great deal of variety in the natural world, and then he said, well, some of that variety produces an animal, and that superior animal is more likely to survive and propagate and propagate its kind.

Those inferior animals are able to propagate their kind. The whole problem with that is not natural selection. The whole problem is what they call, not survival of the fittest, but the arrival of the fittest, and Darwin was not able to explain that, and today we have the same problem.

We're trying to explain scientists. They're trying to explain, I'm trying to explain the arrival of the fittest. What they've come up with that explains it, or at least they think it does, is mutations, and the whole problem with mutations is the vast majority are either near-neutral in the long run.

The vast majority of mutations are not beneficial. The solution is not going nice in the area I teach, for example, in medicine. We know that the accumulation of mutations is going up with each generation.

Back in my biochemistry, a hundred more mutations than his or her parents, each generation, and that leads up to what they call mutational meltdown, and never going to get us to evolution. It's not going to see that, indeed, the evidence is not that we're getting better and better with each generation.

We're de-evolving, which, interestingly, of course, the scriptures talk about Adam and Eve being perfect, and since then, sin entered into the world, and as a result, the mutational load is increasing in each generation,.

And that's exactly what we see in science. Now, was Darwin a theistic evolutionist, or was he, did he become an atheist? What was his, what were his views of God and so on?

Well, his views on God changed a little bit. When he was younger, of course, he went to seminary and became a, wanted to become a priest, I should say, a minister in the Anglican church, and he, when pressed on this, he wavered back and forth.

A problem is, when he was alive, his wife was a devout Christian, his family was very involved in the church, his neighbors, his friends, many were very involved in the church, and therefore had, at least outward, a show of Christianity, and so he was, he was a good politician.

One might, you know, condemn him for his ideas, but on the other hand, he was a good politician, and he recognized, you don't want to call yourself an atheist. He once said that he never was a full atheist, but when you read his ideas, he, for example, said that, well, maybe God intervened to create man.

He couldn't accept that. He intervened in the creation of man. Well, Darwin was, and Darwin basically said, there's no way I can accept God as having a vision of life, and belief-wise, I guess you'd have to say he was an atheist, but he wouldn't label himself that way.

He would probably label himself an agnostic, but in many ways, I think he was, you know, trying to please the public. He was trying to be a good politician. As we know now from politicians, they tend to say what they need to get elected, and then when they get elected, they do what they want to say.

The same thing is true with, he said what he needed to, I should say, to sell books, and he indeed sold, but there's always been holdouts. There's always been scientists then and today that recognize you'll never get, you look at humans, what they believe were the results of billions.

When you put it that way, it doesn't make sense, and the way Darwin put it, but then he was a good politician, knew what to say to sell his ideas, and he really thought he was selling his ideas. When he convinced somebody, he called them converts.

He says, well, we'll keep working on so-and-so, and when they finally accept the Darwinian worldview, he'd say, well, we've got a convert now in proselytizing, and that's one reason we call his theory Darwinism instead of Lamarckianism.

Now, if you could, this may seem like a silly question because of the way that evolution and Darwinism has really infiltrated society globally from our youngest years of childhood, but if you could, just to prevent anybody from having any kind of a caricature of what Darwinian evolution really means, if you could give us a summary of what Darwin actually meant by evolution, and what is the theory that is predominantly held today by.

Scientists who are Darwinian? Well, the theory is best described by a cliché, and that is evolution is from the matter, which they teach. From the goo to you by way of the zoo, and that's really what they, that's basically it.

And that basically that we can trace, although they have no evidence of this, that they believe that man basically has ancestors that are traced all the way back to pond scum, as the old saying goes. Is that actually true, what they believe?

That's the goo, and they recognize, many scientists today, that that's just not viable, that there's no way, given the conditions on the earth, there's no... So now a more and more common theory is basically that we evolve from life, which came from outer space.

In fact, Neil deGrasse Tyson, who did the film Cosmos, which is a tremendously successful film, had a... And of course, that begs the question, well, how do you get to the stars? I mean, if we can't explain the origin of life on the earth, how are you going to explain the origin somewhere else, some other planet, some unknown XYZ planet somewhere out near other stars?

Origin of life and spontaneously origin, then it spontaneously originated somewhere else. But why do we think that somewhere else is commensurate with the origin of life? Well, we don't. So possibility of life, and we can speculate it there as well.

And we know that the planets we've discovered, the only one and no other planet we know of is hospitable to life. The planets are either too large, too small, too close to the sun, too far away, or we don't understand the conditions that are there to determine whether or not they're hospitable to life.

And I don't think they're going to find any planets that are, but, you know, scientists are spending money looking. And to me, that just moves the problem somewhere else. It doesn't solve it. But they realize they've got a conundrum.

How do you get from organic matter, from molecules? How do you get that to the cell? The cell, as we know, of course, the most complex machine in the universe. And as such, how are you going to get from a bunch of, and they admit, we have no idea.

Well, the nation that we have.

Darwinism, Intelligent Design, and the Origin of Life

Now, the thing that is fascinating about this, fascinating and disturbing, is that you have those who claim to be the true intelligentsia of science, the true elite, the true scientists, are those who claim Darwinianism as their theory for the origins of life.

And yet, there is no scientific evidence to back up what they say. And the observable science, when you have experiments that can be reproduced and so on, all of that seems to point towards creationism and the fact that there is intelligent design.

It seems very bizarre. It is, to me, it's very reflective of ancient Roman Catholicism, where you had the Roman Catholic Church severely punishing individuals for believing in things that they discovered through science.

And because it violated a Catholic teaching that was not even biblical, or it was not even the result of accurate biblical exegesis, they were really superstitions or myths that the Catholic Church believed.

And they would censor or punish people who disagreed with them. And of course, we have Copernicus and Galileo and people like that, that were rebuked by Rome and censored and so on for their beliefs. And today, it seems you have a reversal of things where you have the scientific world acting like a religious totalitarian entity, where it doesn't matter if you can prove us wrong, you better not say what you believe, or we will ruin your career, we will get you fired, we will prevent you from being hired, you'll be a laughingstock in the scientific community for believing what you believe, even though we can never, in any stretch of the imagination, prove what we believe.

Yeah, that reminds me of my book I wrote not too long ago, I just published actually a few months ago, called Silencing the Darwin Skeptics. And I show indeed that that's exactly what's happening. And I've been interested very much in eugenics, and an example of that is I went with him, and in studying that, in fact, my book, How Darwinism Corrodes Morality, which of course, Masterbook's New Leaf Press published, one thing I stressed in there, indeed, is the fact that indeed, Darwinism has affected our morals, our moral values.

In fact, the other book, The Darwin Effect, which I also carry this through, Darwinism Corrodes Morality.

Joshua Press.

Joshua Press, right. And those two books, I stress the importance of really dominated science, and there were very, very few scientists that opposed eugenics. And I wonder how in the world could so many people accept an idea which we recognize today as just ludicrous, the idea that certain groups, blacks, Jews, and so on, that they're inferior, we see that today as just irresponsible.

We had adopted that idea 50, 60, 70 years ago, and so we had them to accept it. Now, some did reject it, but didn't speak out about it. In fact, one of the main ones that spoke out about it was an American called Franz Boas, and he was Jewish himself, and he taught at Columbia University.

And he ended up in trouble because he questioned the orthodox view of eugenics today among Darwinists, that they accept a world view as well. Well, how could they accept 50 years ago the idea that Slavic, and as one scientist said, they're human weeds, and we have to eliminate them.

Well, we have the same social environment which pressures back then. Today, another worldview was eugenics. And I think in time, many are beginning to recognize that indeed, even in his day, in the 60s and 50s, how ludicrous Darwinism was.

And he effectively, he didn't talk about the fossil record, but he talked about the moral effects on society, and the pressure that scientists exerted against other scientists, as well as those in society, to accept this idea that indeed, from the good, I never really appreciate, I document indeed, that he recognized the core of the matter.

And that is the Nazi-like totalitarianism, which, of course,.

Darwinism, Eugenics, and Nazi Totalitarianism

Well, I'm going to take some of our listener questions right now. And first, we're going to start with Charlie Liebert, who is from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And Charlie Liebert is a name that many of my Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners will recognize, because Charlie, quite often, is my co-host here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

And Charlie happens to be founder of a ministry called sixdaycreation .com. And he has a question for you. In my discussions with non-Christians, many say that Germany was Christian at the time of Hitler.

I know they were humanistic, but how do you counter that statement, simply? And he says, I lost three great uncles with 13 children in the Holocaust. That's interesting, Charlie. I want to hear more about that, because I know that you're a Christian, so it's interesting that you lost ancestors in the Holocaust, nonetheless.

But if you could comment. Yeah, people very often will blur the distinction between nominal, mainline Christianity and the genuine Bible-believing.

Regenerate faith. Yeah, on my book, Hitler in the Darwinian Worldview, I cover a chapter on that, but there's been a lot written on it. And we know Christianity teaches things like love your enemy, love your brother.

It's how you basically love your brother, then you love Christ. And, you know, there are many, many scriptures. Many then, as is true today, so many were a good example of, indeed, what happens when we only have what they call veneer Christianity.

And many Christians are veneer Christians. They have a covering which is Christian, but Korah was Christian. We Nazi movement, primarily those, there were more Christians who spoke up. It's often been documented that, indeed, we wouldn't have said, no, we cannot allow this.

We cannot accept this to happen. But a lot of this, the average person didn't know about many of these things, at least until later on in the war. And so the government really tried hard to keep it quiet until later on.

They got to a point where they couldn't. But, indeed, that's one reason I wrote the book, A Nazi Worldview, was, indeed, I see the same thing to some degree happening today. Surveys have shown that a younger generation of millennials, now 51 percent, do not call themselves Christians, but 51 percent call themselves nuns, which means they're no religion, but many are atheists or agnostics.

And so we see the same if you follow a specialist to talk about what happened at the University of California, Berkeley, you can see that in so many ways our society is moving away from Christianity. We had, I understand, a war in Afghanistan.

He said, you can be sent to Afghanistan. And I said, well, you're lucky, they couldn't, because the number of people dying in Chicago is worse than Afghanistan. And he chuckled, and he said, yeah, that's true, I know.

And that's how Darwinism grew, won by Joshua Press, which, by the way, all my books are available on Amazon and most any bookstore here. And you can also get them through one of my sponsors. I have to throw that in there,.

Obviously, CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com. They carry books by Jerry Bergman as well. And well, thank you, Charlie Liebert.

And we hope that you recover rapidly from surgery. That is one of the reasons Charlie is not in the studio with me today. And of course, many of you know that my other co-host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, is normally in the studio with me, and he is returning to his full-time career after a vacation that he was on.

So we hope that Buzz can return quickly as our co-host as well. Charlie, you are getting a free copy of this book that we are discussing, How Darwinism Corrodes Morality. And that is compliments of Joshua Press and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who I just mentioned, who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to us.

So thank you very much for contributing to today's program. By the way, I keep screwing up the pronunciation. Are both acceptable pronunciations? Is it Darwinism and Darwinianism? Are they both.

Acceptable, or am I just an idiot? Yeah, no, Darwinism is the common term, but Darwinianism, I guess that would be better. You see them both. Well, you've already touched on this,.

But we'll read Daniel's question from Bakersfield, California. Daniel from Bakersfield, California says,. My question for Dr. Jerry Berkman is, Would you say that the popularity of Darwinian evolution has led to the low view of human life we have in our culture today?

In my opinion, there seems to be a correlation between the full acceptance of Darwinian evolution and abortion and assisted suicide. Yes, certainly with abortion, there is. In fact,.

I have a chapter on that in the book on how Darwinism corrodes morality. And I show, indeed, that the arguments they used when the abortion case was before the Supreme Court, when they argued in the genetics department, you're not removing or killing a human, you're killing a fish.

According to Heckel's idea of Darwinism, you're basically not human, you're a fish. And they call that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. They used to claim that, indeed, at that stage, we have gill slits.

Well, we don't have gill slits, we don't have gills at that stage. And fortunately, my biology textbook we use correctly calls them pharyngeal slits, pharyngeal cliffs. That idea was totally wrong for many years and now supports his ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny theory, dishonest pictures idea of ontogeny.

Ontogeny, basically, what that means is that when we are really, really young in the womb, we basically are, then we evolve into reptiles, and we evolve into mammals, and then primates, and then humans.

So we go through our ridiculous textbooks for many, many years. And indeed, the animals that Heckel used in his drawings to find out to prove, indeed, that he was, we do not go through these various, as I go to develop as an adult human, went through that fish stage.

And the idea that they had for over 100 years is simply wrong. I think today, if the case were to go before the Supreme Court, I do not think that they would rule that they would recognize, indeed, that at month one, two, three, four, and five, we are human, fully human.

We're not fish evolution, and therefore the major argument they use.

Well, I guess now we know the basis for the classic Don Knotts movie, The Incredible Mr. Limpet. When he became a fish, if you recall, I don't know if you ever saw that movie in the 60s, Dr. Bergman, but that was a childhood classic of a scientist who became a fish.

But anyway, I digress. Thank you, Daniel in Bakersfield, California. You also have won a free copy of the book we are discussing, How Darwinianism Corrodes Morality by Jerry Bridges. I'm sorry, Jerry Bridges, the dear Jerry Bridges, our late brother in Christ, who's now in glory.

I have interviewed him while he was still with us, and your name just looked a lot like his. Jerry Bergman, and that is compliments of Joshua Press, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that out to you.

Please make sure that we have your full mailing address, if you could email that to us so we can get that out to you as soon as possible. Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we also have a listener all the way in Slovenia, Joe, who says, Please ask Dr. Bergman to explain to us how the Darwinian evolutionist gets around or explains the absence of transitional species in the fossil record.

It seems to me, as others have pointed out, that if Darwinian evolution were true, we would expect to see lots of transitional species in the fossil record. But if I understand correctly, they are absent.

What does the fact of their absence tell us about the willingness of the unregenerate to believe and propagate social policies based on a theory that is devoid of the key piece of evidence that would substantiate its claims?

Thank you for your invaluable work, and also the key piece of evidence that would demonstrate that it's science at all. But anyway, Dr. Bergman, if you could respond to Joe from Slovenia. Yeah, that's a very.

Good question, and Darwin himself asked that, and he said, Why are there not innumerable numbers of transitional fossils? And he said there weren't. He recognized there weren't. And the response today from scientists is, Well, we just got to keep digging.

We just got to keep looking. We'll find them. They're out there, but we have to keep looking. But some recognize that we've been looking for 150 years, and we haven't found what they're expecting at all.

We have found some which appear to be transitional, but if we look at them more carefully, we find out that they're not. But they recognize that's a huge problem, and so their response is that one of the latest responses is that what happened is during the transition from one animal type to another is in the fossil record.

So therefore, it's not there because evolution occurred so fast. In between, when you evolve into another kind of animal, it didn't leave very many because we evolved so. And that, of course, is a question which tries to explain lack of information.

And, you know, you can come up with all kinds of reasons for lack of information, but... And they believe it so strongly that they have to come up with some explanation, and that's the one that they came up with.

Primarily Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldridge came up with that explanation. And it's not universally accepted because many scientists recognize that what you need is clear evidence of transitional forms, and it's just not there.

The transitional forms just are not there, and what they're expecting... Fish and other animals, for example, are between dinosaurs and other animals, and what they find is the first dinosaur is a dinosaur.

They're finding they're simply not there. We evolved from another planet, and then we came to the Earth as, you know, in some spaceship or some rocket ship, which is called the Superman, or we came to the Earth as a result of being carried on a meteor.

It's hard to give up a theory you believed all your life, and it's a science belief. So, you know, they're trying to maintain their belief. Same thing with eugenics. They tried to maintain their belief even though evidence just wasn't there.

They, for example, got a bunch of skeletons from Jews, and they took the flesh off, and they wanted to display these in the museum in Berlin, and they were trying to find evidence that these, what they called a race then, was inferior, and they couldn't find any.

They just couldn't find any evidence that indeed these people were the way. Well, we got the wrong. We can indeed deflesh these, and we can indeed show that they're inferior. So, you don't find evidence.

They just keep what they did then, and now, of course, we recognize how appallingly foolish that is, that they just couldn't. You've got to take off your evolution glasses and look at the world the way it is, and when they look at the world, they can't see the world the way it is, and no wonder they just can't see the evidence right in front of them, which, of course, we're talking about now.

I don't want to sound overly.

Sensationalistic here, but when Joe asks about, you know, the willingness of the unregenerate to propagate social policies based on theories devoid of any evidence, you wonder how much of this is due to demonic influence.

Now, I am a non-charismatic, thoroughgoing, five-point Calvinist. I am not one who is prone to sensationalism, because I know that the liberals like to laugh at things like that, but do you think that that is really a very obvious element of this whole thing, because it seems that it has reached the level of insanity that the scientific world has bought things as gospel that you cannot detract from, or you will lose your reputation and livelihood?

That's true. That's a very good point,.

And you certainly wonder if that's the case, but by and large, I think the case is that they're surrounded by this worldview, and they accept it because that's what's in their environment.

And you think it's also, like, one of the things I just said, is that they may lose their jobs if.

They start to question these things. Yeah, that's a big factor in many people, and when you get to know people on a personal level, you find that many scientists have major doubts about Darwinism, but they're not going to voice these publicly because they know it could cause them problems, and so, you know, as they say, when you're drinking coffee after work and talking about these things, you realize that a lot of people have big problems.

A lot of scientists have big problems. I'm not going to talk about this to other people because I know they're not going to be receptive, and it may jeopardize my career. You know, stay in the closet, and that's what we call it.

Stay in the closet until later on the closet becomes more open and more accepting,.