TiL- Historic Premillennialism v Postmill

Postmillennialism Versus Historic Premillennialism

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. Tonight we are going to be discussing post-millennial ism versus historic pre-millennial ism. We hope you will stick around. Welcome back to the truth and love podcast.

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Let us know that you're watching but the comment lines are open. Dan. How you doing? Good, man. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I'm I'm glad to glad to be here and glad the Lord is Allowing us to get together tonight tonight Dan and I have two special guests.

We're gonna be talking about post-millennial ism versus and I know that that word there's a little tricky. Because we're not going to be debating and we're not going to be teaming up tonight. We're going to have a discussion Hopefully learning from one another What we believe where we stand on these two Eschatological Ideas Historic pre-millennial ism and post-millennial ism and we have two special guests with us tonight.

Guest Introductions and the Difference Between Dispensational and Historic Premillennialism

Anthony since you somehow switch places I'm gonna let you go first. We've got Anthony Jemison with us tonight. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yes, my name is Anthony Jemison. I Am 28 years old. Currently working as a logistics planner for a trucking company. I Am called to preach and I'm planning on planning a church in Winston-Salem at some point in time Whenever God deems to be so.

I currently go to a Presbyterian Church as a Reformed Baptist and I'm the historic pre-mill in this.

Discussion.

It'll be fun Jeremy. Introduce yourself my friend.

My name is Jeremy Hall Originally from Ohio. I live down near Myrtle Beach pastor of small church in Conway, South Carolina and down downtown Conway Faith Reformed Baptist Church. Our wife three kids actually my oldest daughter.

Is due to have a baby here in the next month or so, so I'll be a grandfather. And I hold to the post mill view and held to it for a few years now. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm some expert at it or anything.

I just Hope to for probably seven or eight years now. So.

Fantastic. I know I would claim to be in the same boat not an expert still learning. I got a lot to learn and I'm looking forward to the discussion tonight. Um. Before we jump into the main course and get to it.

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I'm excited about it the difference between regular Regular pre-meal and historic pre-meal. I like the way they put that. It's probably the way I would say it too because we're most familiar. It's the one that most people are familiar with.

I think they're talking about Dispensational pre-millennial ism and historic pre-millennial ism. So, um. Why don't we start there. And then we'll go on to our next question so Anthony. But why don't you just get us started?

What would you say some of the the major differences are between? Dispensational or regular pre-millennial ism and historical pre-millennial pre-millennial ism.

For one thing.

That.

Regular dispensational ism is known for is being in pre trip or pre Tribulational rapture and also. They're very much known for how the the ethnic Israel is going to be involved with.

The.

Millennium to come and things of that nature. One difference is that historic pre-mails?

We believe that.

The tribulation is going to be. Or the rapture is going to be at the second advent. And that's how we define it as as the second advent or the second coming of Christ. So it's going to be one event instead of two separate events, so it's going to happen at the same time.

Christ ascends we go up. You know and we get our glorified bodies. The other thing is that we're covenantal. We're a covenantal people. We don't believe that scripture. It's split up into dispensations, but rather it is split up into the covenant.

So that would be something that we all would agree here upon is the covenantal aspect. And just to give like an overview.

So.

Dispensationalism didn't come about till about Darby. Darby around about 1800 is the first like ever recorded record we give. Anything being said of pre-trib and.

Premillennialism.

The first record we get of historic pre-millennialism is 30 AD and that is dating way back to Polycart who was an apostle John Clement the first of Rome who was an apostle of or not possible a disciple Clement of Rome who was a disciple of Paul and Then we also have a Arrhenius who came later, and then you know it just trails off until about 300 or so and then these guys.

That's one of the major differences also we believe kind of the same thing except for The age of prophecy doesn't end it continues so like in Dispensationalism it would end at the pre-trib rapture and then you know you would have.

The.

Establishment of the temple and You know everything involved with that whereas Everything that is involved with Israel is what we're grafted into as New Covenant people so it's nothing surrounding really ethnic Israel.

And there are two people actually two different versions of this. There are historic pre-millennials who still believe that. There's stuff regarding ethnic Israel, and there are ones like me who? Believe that everything involved with Ethnic Israel has already been fulfilled in Christ.

And then you know the ones who believe are the ones who received the promises that were given to them in the Old Testament.

Gotcha. So let me make this clarification and correct me if I'm wrong, and I think all the different Views of eschatology would probably agree with this, but correct me if I'm wrong. So when you say that Historic pre-millennialism goes back to and you said 30 AD.

You're not. You're not necessarily saying that say polycarp or clement used the terminology Historic pre-millennialism pre-millennialism. You're saying that they taught that concept or view right.

Right, okay, right. It wasn't it wasn't coined a phrase until like later on. In fact it didn't come back about until George Eldon lied in about 20s or 40s 1920 or 1940. Brought it back about at fuller theological University in California.

Yeah, and I think also where John MacArthur went. So I.

Think we all have to do that in all of our eschatological views is when we're trying to figure out the history of it. That that those terms weren't necessarily used way back then. But we have to see who's teaching that that type of concept or that or that idea and that.

And sometimes even those people claim the same person sometimes like Who is it. But Spurgeon is. I've heard him. I've heard people claim he holds two different eschatological views. Some claim him for their view and some claim it for another view so it just depends on.

That's a good thing that the church throughout time It's been forming these which I think it's a good thing like Well, I call myself post mill is historic pre mill. It's a good thing that we have these labels and these that we can.

We can we form these doctrines from the scriptures and be able to identify Ourselves with that where they weren't there before.

Yeah.

So the some of these first questions that I'm throwing out at you guys Comes from like we I think we discussed a little bit before I'm more familiar with and as a post mill I'm combating what I grew up with the dispensational or regular premillennial views so, you know, I've been combating that in in my traditions and with What a lot of people hold to so I'm combating that trying to answer those questions.

And so I'm less familiar with Historical premillennialism, so Historical premill. What happens in the in the pre of the premill? So so what are you what are you looking for to happen? Anthony or anybody else can chime me and what are you looking for to happen in the pre?

The Tribulation, the Rapture, and the Second Advent in Historic Premillennialism

Yeah, as you stated earlier talking about dispensational They're looking for the rapture to happen. Premill and pre trip. What is a historic premill looking for? What's what's pre mean?

Okay, so whenever I wrote this down. What jets us kind of into.

The.

Tribulation period is the great apostasy of the church so that's where like us and Dispensationals kind of agree. They kind of took that and they agreed upon it. Where it differs is where the rapture happens and.

So whenever we're going through the tribulation. And I've come to the understanding recently that when we look at like the Old Testament where like the Israelites or the Hebrews were kept under captivity and in Egypt under Pharaoh and God spilled out his wrath upon Pharaoh and the firstborn and stuff.

When we look at that, it's a type and shadow of something. It has to because it's not there for any no reason at all.

So.

When we do when we look at that, we're like, okay. So what is this? We're shadowing. Well, we still believe in the seven-year tribulation now some Historic pre-mills may differ. There's kind of different flavors sometimes too with any eschatology and One thing that I found very encouraging especially in my study is That God will preserve his own During the pouring out of his wrath upon the ungodly which is an Encouragement, you know because the idea of having to go through the tribulation is You know really daunting.

Because you imagine like the stuff that they have to go through and you know the Sun being seven times hotter and so on and so forth and It's just like God is going to preserve his people. He always has he always will.

We're grafted into that You know from the olive branch.

So.

After like right at the end of the tribulation Christ is gonna this Christ is going to be coming into the clouds and this is where.

We.

We all three are all for agree that there is no secret rapture that it is very visible and So Christ will be visibly coming down and will be raptured out. So we are Waiting for where the apostasy of the church Janice into the tribulation period and then we're waiting on Christ to come into clouds and the sand and us to be raptured out.

Okay, let me make it clear or ask a clarification on terms. So when you say we also believe in the rapture, but it's going to happen at the end. Is the word rapture and in your estimate resurrection, would you use that interchangeably.

You could.

I.

Would agree to that. I would agree to that. Especially since the idea of flesh and blood entering into the gates of heaven. It scripture says, you know fresh and flesh and blood shall not enter into the gates of heaven.

So whenever We look at You know stuff like the left-behind series where like full bodies are disappearing and things of that nature it's not gonna happen that way we're just gonna drop dead and That's it, you know and we're with you know in the presence of our Lord and You know and watching him descend and you know going against Antichrist.

And that's that kind of sparks the.

Millennium.

You know into that.

So you've already brought up some terms that we as post mill would Disagree with as far as the the timing of those people and events. Absolutely jump in so.

Are you saying the rapture happens when you say the end? Do you mean it like I would use the term consummation like at the very end or is it there's going to be a rapture.

And then.

Seven year.

Tribulation. No, there's gonna be a seven-year tribulation and at the end of the seven year. Okay, the rapture is gonna happen. So that's why I thought you were saying but.

Okay, and then and then the Millennial Kingdom.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I.

Maybe I wouldn't need some clarification myself there because I was thinking you were saying that it was the Reservoir the rapture happened at the end of the Millennium, but I'm hearing you now. I got you.

Got you.

So you're going through the tribulation then your rapture then the Millennium.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, then would you say it's at the rapture that it takes place before the Millennium? It's a. I think you'd agree that a catching up with what The terms is typically used were caught up into the air with him.

And then you believe we come back to earth and.

Rain, yes on earth.

Okay, I agree. We rain on her.

Hopefully we hopefully we'll get to those definitions. And hopefully we can clarify some what each each view what we mean by those things. Dan have you seen anyone? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

One thing I want to clarify to I'm something that was attributed to George Ellington lad and. Something that's a misconception about historic females is that we don't believe that Christ is ruling in the reigning right now.

We attribute to the idea of the here and not yet. Which means that Christ is ruling and reigning now in the spiritual and then he's going to come and rule and reign in the physical.

I think Amos would probably somewhat hold to that too. Dan in your studies.

Are there any similarities between these views that you've come across. Which views of the historical pre meal post meal view?

Um, I mean, yeah, no, um, there's there's similarities in that Believe that the Millennial Kingdom will Take place I guess. Really what one of the biggest differences is where Christ will be ruling from during that time.

Um.

The post millennial believes that Christ will be reigning from heaven during that time and will return to the earth at the consummation. Whereas a historical pre millennial person believes that while Christ may be reigning now His what was properly called the Millennial Kingdom will take place with him reigning from the earth If I'm not mistaken from Jerusalem specifically.

So for a thousand years to.

Right.

Generally, I've heard some that don't hold to a literal 1 ,000 years, but I would say most probably do I Don't want to speak for everybody though.

Yeah.

Post mill camp. Well, I'm sure us. We could talk and have some differences in our views, too.

Yeah, yeah it it.

The.

I'm sure that there's probably gonna mean be more differences depending on which Interpretational method you take when you come to scripture. So if if you come to say Daniel revelation and prophecy with a futurist idea you're going to run in one vein whereas even if you hold to say a historical pre-millennial view and you Understand maybe a more idealist approach to interpreting certain passages or books or even even a partial preterist understanding It's gonna change Flavor the way that you understand how those events fold.

So I.

Mean really you're talking about eight if you want to look at it like that if you can compare pre-millennial sort of pre-millennial ism and Post-millennialism we're really talking about like six or seven.

Different views when you factor in the different types of interpretational methods.

Yeah.

So I'm sure there's similarities all across the board. But there's also gonna be a lot of differences. I.

Don't want to put anybody on the spot. So if you want to take this question. Jump right in there. Why take us. Why take us to put us back? Does the Bible say why?

Um.

It's a good question and.

Honestly, I.

Mean, it's the whole question of Why there's a millennium? Like why is there a thousand-year reign and then Satan be released at the end of time. We really don't know and It's one of those in time things that We're really gonna have to find out when it happens.

But we are promised that we will rule and reign in Christ with Christ in the millennia. So that's one promise or one thing that was promised to us.

For the record. I also as a post mill guy, I believe that at the consummation We're gonna be caught up and then come back.

Sure. Yeah, I was gonna say too that may be another part of an agreement with that we can have is that we will be caught up in the resurrection or rapture or whatever terminology you want to use and then.

Yeah, we just I believe it comes at the consummation where you would believe it comes before the millennial reign.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm glad we could have some agreement there. Yeah, I think a little bit. I think every view.

Would.

Maybe besides a full-on preterist view. Would have to struggle with that question there.

So, let's see, um, we talked about some similarities talked about some differences. We talked about the Great Tribulation. We're jumping right in there and all these questions. What is the Great Tribulation or when does it happen in both views?

The Great Tribulation and the Timing of Matthew 24

You kind of talked about that Anthony Jeremy the the Great Tribulation in the post mill view. Let's hear from the post mill perspective.

Well, this is kind of a question that I think. Even as post mill for the most part I think we might have agreement but there might be some that don't agree totally on this and that's okay. I think this falls more into the the preterist or partial preterist Part of it, but I believe that the Great Tribulation actually happened between 67 and 70 AD.

I.

Believe when Christ said this generation Shall not pass to all these things are fulfilled. It was that current generation that he was speaking to.

There.

Which he actually used the same language he used that language in Matthew 24. But he also used the same language in Matthew 23 at the very end of it right before he leaves the temple and then he his disciples point right back to the temple and say Let me I'll pull it right up.

It says in Jesus went out and departed from the temple and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. So they just leaves the temple. He departs from the temple just like he did in Ezekiel chapter 10 when God departed from the temple the first temple and then he destroyed it.

Jesus departs from the temple here in Matthew 24 and His disciples Came to him privately Saying tell us when shall these things be because he says there shall not be one stone left upon another at the tip pointing to the temple that was actually there at that time that he just left and They say what shall?

Be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world and then Jesus proceeds to answer that to the next By 20 20-something verses and Then says well 30 verses and then says in verse 34 barely, I say to you this generation shall not pass to all these things be fulfilled and Historically, and I actually I went through this chapter for our church and our teaching on eschatology.

Historically, we can see that these things happened Just as Jesus said they would so when Jesus said this generation shall not pass To all these things be fulfilled. He meant that and it happened then and I believe actually the book of Revelation is A warning as well for the Christians to get out of Jerusalem because it was about to be destroyed and John even says in The book of Revelation the first chapter without going into time references Which are but he says I John who am also your brother and companion in tribulation.

So.

He was there in the tribulation so I believe that's happened between 67 and 70 AD. And oftentimes when we see the language of the the end in scripture, that's talking about that the end of that.

That Judaic.

System and it ended and Completely ended in 70 AD because there's no more temple. There's no more sacrifice. There's no more. There's no more place of worship. And the gospel goes forth into all the ends of the earth now.

So to answer the question simply, I believe the Great Tribulation happened between 67 and 70 AD.

So if anybody I think that's another area of agreement if anybody wants to go study the Great Tribulation. You reference those verses Matthew 24 1 through The first 30 30 verses or 24 verses something like that.

How however you divide it up if you were one of those that divides it up and so We go to the same place to study the Great Tribulation. You reference Matthew 24 34 as a time indicator. Historic pre meal.

We're we're saying that it's yet to come it's happening in the future. So so Anthony as a historic pre meal. One, why do you look to the future? What do you what do you see in there that that's telling you this is yet to come.

Well, it's not just.

Scripturally but also historically. It's the big part of historic premillennialism and The mere fact that the disciples of these apostles believe this. Simply alluded to a.

Premillennial kingdom and.

I mean, this isn't like like a generation removed away from You know the Apostle John. This is his direct.

Disciple who.

Learned underneath him during this time. While he was in exile, you know and everything and Polycarp learns a lot from John and. One of those things that he took with him was the historic premillennialist or I'm gonna change it a little bit but covenantal premillennial view is originally what it's called.

Um.

So that kind of It kind of solidifies it for me like that that's the nail in the coffin for me at least. Also, whenever we look at Revelation chapters 19 through 22 Like we see all this in order of how things are going to happen and It makes for an interesting case because When we look at scripture chronologically We see all these things displayed through the things in order.

So like we looked at Genesis as the end rather than the beginning We'd have a really different view of Christianity as we do now. So we have to whenever we go through the book of Revelation We go through it chronologically from chapter 1 on.

We're looking at a succession of events that happen.

I'm glad you use that term you kind of gives a hint at. What was convincing you of the historic premill. Because I did see the post that you made and you said. You know while you were studying recently Something something helped you to really seal this view for you.

And I got to thinking well it's it's really a good thing that we're not debating tonight because That would be a tall order for for Jeremy Dana myself to try to convince you and and get you away if you've become so convinced of the historic premill view.

Yes, you go ahead.

No Demas served right along Paul and In second to second Timothy 410 for Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world within that first generation. We had the Gnostics. We had Paul warning the elders at Ephesus that wolves were going to be coming in.

They're already among you.

So.

Just for me and It's you brought this up earlier, which is fine. And I thought you were about to ask me. Well, do you know of any early? Disciples that held to post mill and for me, it's like well the scriptures.

Like I gotta I gotta prove my position from the scriptures not because a certain guy Holds to it. I Mean Athanasius held to post mill that doesn't make me a post mill guy. The the fact that polycarp Who I like I like polycarp by the way is one of the best martyr stories that you can you can share but Just the fact that he would hold to a position doesn't make me Want to hold to that position?

Because the heresy was already running rampant Within the church. The book of Galatians is a fine example of that that Paul was Amazed that they are so soon removed from the gospel so that I think we when we come to any of our positions and I I I Talk a lot on this with friends and brothers and sisters and I say we need to drive all of our theology.

He needs to be text driven. Not just because somebody that we likes believes it and I'm not accusing you of that or anything I'm just saying that if you come come to me and ask me Why I believe in post mill I mean which I hopefully I'll show you that it's all text driven.

It's not. It's not because of Rob believes it or Dan or Bonson or anybody else is because I believe Isaiah believed it. I believe the psalmist believed it.

So.

I just wanted to to mention that because Polycarp's good to probably learn from but I wouldn't say just because he was the disciple of John.

That.

Everything he believed was right. Yeah, I think.

Yeah, I'll let you go next. I just want to throw this in real quick. I totally 100 agree, you know with what Jeremy said, but I Kind of kind of supporting where where Anthony's come from, too. I have heard as far as a suggestion or recommendation, you know to to believers who are studying the scriptures.

If you come up with a with a thought or an idea that's Not heard of from what we call the old day guys the old old theologians or church history then You're probably wrong because you know, you're coming up with this.

You are wrong. So so you have you have both views we you know, we want to have.

Historical.

Support. We don't want to come up with wild hair harebrained ideas from scripture well you know, so we want to study them and use them and. But then I also agree with you Jeremy that we get our theology from scripture 100

Yeah, and we can all every I think every Tradition if you want to call it that can point to guys that held to it not just eschatology. I mean we could we could talk any Doctrine of the faith and I guarantee we could find somebody that held to it.

Yeah.

So what we're gonna say anything.

Well, yeah, the one thing I was gonna say too and you've had touched on it Rob was that.

And.

Another guy I was watching a video on it last night. He'd done a great job. I think it's Michael Schultz that done it. Um. But he done a great job of explain it and he was just like look it's not that.

And I'm not saying you're accusing me of doing so but I want to clarify for the viewers. Also It's not that we don't hold the soul script to where absolutely we believe that this is the authority the final authority Supreme Authority, which all things are subjugated to but at the same time that's pastor Joel Levin says it does not mean that outside things are not a authority and We have to look to tradition and things of that nature.

So whenever we get our baseline for our theology, it's like if You disagree with any part of the Apostles Creed. You're automatically a heretic. Automatically the Nicene Creed the Athanasian Creed by default heretic.

Like there is no ifs or buts about it because the early church fathers put that there in response to what was going on at the time and It says, you know Solomon saying Ecclesiastes nothing is new under the Sun.

It all repeats.

So.

We're now in a process of repeating with like you said earlier the Gnostics and the Unitarians and modalists and Aryans that are coming out, you know, so whenever we come to scripture one of the parts of Interpreting text in our hermeneutics is the historical part.

And it's just like well, what did they historically?

Do.

But also whether they historically believe.

Yeah, and I think I think all of us could present guys that believe that this doctrinal versus this doctrine and sound guys to like guys. I would recommend like I'd recommend polycart, but If he held a historical pre-mill, I wouldn't recommend that part of it.

Just like I recommend John MacArthur to anybody but I I would say stay away from his His dispensationalism, actually, I just bought my wife a MacArthur study Bible and I told her just don't read Revelation.

We're Daniel or Matthew 24.

But uh, I mean one of the things to to remember and I'm trying to get through to Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics. It's not not every early church father agreed. They were very polarized. Some agreed on this saying some agree on the other things and It's just like, you know, it's like we are now, you know, even in this.

In this life see. We all have something our little nuances that we disagree on. Yeah.

Let's go ahead and talk about a lot of those. Go ahead.

That's why scriptures our final authority. Yeah.

That's that's our aim is to give you what he is telling us. Absolutely Dan I'll let you start us off with this one. Let's let's go to a place where we differ and I think this is one of the the places where we can talk about the the bigger difference bit differences between historical pre-mill and post-millennial ism is the The idea of the resurrection and or some people won't call it the the rapture.

And we'll just look at the historic pre-mill versus post-mill views When it comes to the resurrection. And and we can go ahead and flip to Revelation 20. That's where the big controversy controversy comes from.

There's other verses that talk about the That the resurrection and I've got a put a lot of them on our list there but I think this is where the big controversy between the two groups comes from is Revelation 20, so Dan if you want if you want to give us the the post mill view Revelation 20 is it verse 2.

The First Resurrection, Regeneration, and the General Resurrection

The resurrection verse 5. Verse 5.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection so. You have revelations seem to be talking about a first resurrection and there may be a second resurrection.

I've heard people talk about a general resurrection. So From a post-mill perspective. What do we believe about? The the resurrection slash. Rapture if you want to use that terminology.