Pastor Talks with an Atheistic-Satanist & Transgender Man

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00:00

Errol, do you have a problem with stardust in a cosmically indifferent universe hurting other stardust?

00:08

Don't you have a Scientologist to harass? Notice that you don't have a response.

00:14

You don't have a response. When you change the subject, when you change the subject, it demonstrates that you don't have any intellectual position to argue from.

00:25

What religion do you not harass? What's that? What religion do you not harass? Harass?

00:30

You mean, who do I not tell the gospels here? Nobody. I've been to Ireland preaching the gospel,

00:39

I've been to Australia, New Zealand, all over Canada, North America, everywhere.

00:44

You don't like Catholics? Who do you like? We love Catholics and we preach the gospel to Catholics. No, you really don't like Catholics.

00:50

No, we do. We care for them. Let me ask you, let me ask you.

00:56

Let me ask you, in terms of loving other people and truth, if you believe that somebody is an error, right?

01:08

If you love them, what do you do about it? If you love somebody and you love the truth and you see somebody who's not in the truth, what does love demand of you?

01:22

If somebody is lost and you believe they're an error, what does love do? I don't even know how to answer that question because that's a stupid question.

01:32

Okay. No, it is. And that's the problem. Do you love truth? Do you love truth? You're saying that if I love this man who's not a

01:41

Satanist and he will not become a Satanist, what should

01:46

I do with him because he's not a Satanist? If somebody is an error, if somebody is an error, and what is love demand of you if somebody is an error?

01:58

I still love you. Okay, true, but what does love do? What does it do? Love lets me live my own life.

02:05

So would you say that to the child molester? Would you let them live their own life? I would say that to any Christian child molester.

02:11

Let me ask you a question. If there was a child molester, somebody is molesting children, unrepentant, they do it and they love it.

02:19

Do you challenge them? You mean like a priest? Sure, like a priest. Do you challenge them? Yes, you do.

02:25

Okay, good. So love actually does the hard work of confronting evil. Love has nothing to do with the person committing the crime.

02:33

Love has something to do with the person being molested. The victim. Yes. Fantastic.

02:38

So love demands of you to speak out against something that's wrong, correct? Exactly. Well, Jesus says he is the way and the truth.

02:46

Now you're going to twist this into saying, I believe something here is wrong. No, no. I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about me. Okay. You challenged the fact that we go out and we try to love and witness to people of different religions because we care for them.

02:59

Did you see that we were at the same church the week before you? No, I didn't see it.

03:05

What do you mean? No, we were at the same Hollywood Boulevard thing last week. Oh, were you in Hollywood this week?

03:10

You were there this week? It was the same guy in the same security outfit. Oh, the security guy, right?

03:16

Wasn't he intense? And he's like... He was intense, wasn't he? It's like, what are you going to do? I know. Did he give you like the hard look he gave to us?

03:22

Yeah, it's like, really? You know what's interesting is that when we were there, they, you know, they were stopping everybody.

03:29

Well, you know that. You were there. Yeah. But when... The personality tests and all that. Yeah, yeah. When he walked up to us and he...

03:35

Which takes four hours. It does take four hours? That's what some of the locals told me. Wow. That's intense. I was going to take it back, but four hours is a lot.

03:42

I know. Who does? He shoves the guy out of the way. We were just talking. And he shoves the guy out of the way.

03:48

And the guy just obeyed. He was like... The security guy? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Just shoves him out of the way. The guy just obeyed.

03:53

They got a lot of money. But... So he starts recording me, which is fine. He starts recording me, but then he texts somebody.

03:59

He's fat. I know. So he starts texting somebody. And then he just gives me this really hard look.

04:04

So we were like, all right, you know, God bless you guys. And we walked away. What are you going to do, kid? So we start looking behind us, and there's this dude that comes around the corner, and he's following us for like a block and a half.

04:14

We saw that, too. Yeah. And so we finally stopped and turned around, and the guy saw that we were looking at him.

04:19

He was just pretending like he didn't... You know, he's like this. And he turns around the other way. We were being followed. We were being followed for like a block and a half, two blocks.

04:28

It was intense. Yeah. I mean... It was weird. Yeah. And you were at that same Scientology building?

04:33

Yeah, we were there. I think you posted the video a couple days ago. Yeah. We were there a week before that on Wednesday.

04:41

Okay. What were you guys doing out there? I had a rally, and I gave a speech for human rights, civil rights, things like that.

04:48

Okay. You know, can I ask you a question about that? Of course you can.

04:53

You have an obvious dedication to what you believe is the truth, and you want to...

05:00

You care about other human beings, and you don't want to see injustice, and you don't want to see oppression of any sort, right?

05:07

Of course. Okay. So I admire that about you. Don't trap me. I'm not trapping you. I mean that sincerely. It shows,

05:12

I think, the image of God in you. You care about other human beings. You know better than that. But I think it does. No, it doesn't.

05:17

Now, from my position, I have a reason to look at what you do and say, that makes sense to me. But... And I don't know exactly what you believe, but I would assume you're an atheist?

05:27

I'm an atheist humanist. Okay. Humanist. You're part of the satanic temple? I'm a non -theistic satanist. Satanist, right.

05:32

Okay. So you're an atheist, and I just want to ask you, okay, not in any kind of mean -spirited way, but how do you make sense of the desire for justice that you have, the care for other human beings, when you believe fundamentally that all of our ancestors were fish, were evolved from highly evolved societies of bacteria, that there's no justice ahead of any of us, it's only sky above us, that we live in a universe that doesn't care.

06:01

How do you justify it as an atheist? I don't believe that those two things correlate to each other.

06:07

I don't believe that my belief that we came from the Big Bang Theory, and then we evolved into this and everything else.

06:15

My belief, and actually it began with my civil rights issues, my humanist issues, was when

06:24

I became transgender, and I went from one side of the street to the other side of the world.

06:30

I gave up the greatest privilege in the world, being a white male, and I became the most marginalized person in the world.

06:39

And when I saw what was pushed upon me, that made me really, really, really cognizant of what other marginalized minorities believe.

06:53

Because when I was a white male, which we're not going to argue that, you're not going to argue that.

07:01

That you're a white male? When I was, don't try to twist it, I'm trying to explain this to you, okay?

07:07

I'm listening. I was assigned male at birth. People believed I was a white male. I had the most privilege in the world, but when

07:15

I lost that, when I followed my true belief, my true faith, if you may, and followed the path that I was supposed to be on,

07:26

I saw how other minorities were treated. And I was one of those.

07:32

I still am one of those. Then it hurt you. It opened my eyes. No, I understand that.

07:38

No, Jocelyn, I'm going to ask you. So I hear all that. No, I understand your plight and how you feel.

07:43

This guy's going to twist it so badly. No, no, no. No. Um, I wouldn't allow him. So with what you say, you still haven't given me an answer from an atheist perspective as to how any of that means anything.

07:57

All of our ancestors came from bacteria. That has nothing to do with it. It has everything. It has everything to do with it.

08:04

No, no, no, no, no, no. You are of all pond scum. No, that has nothing to do with it. You asked me the question.

08:10

That's not an answer. About why do I believe what I believe. Right, no, I'm asking for justification. It has nothing to do with pond scum.

08:16

I'm asking for a justification. Theoretic physicists right in here at Arizona State University, they can argue over the both of our heads.

08:24

They wouldn't be able to answer this either. I'm asking you for moral justification for your concern for other human beings.

08:31

What is your moral justification for saying the Bible is true? All you have is a book.

08:36

No, no, no, no, no. I would say the Bible says that if you reject him, I'm answering, I'm answering, of course.

08:43

The Bible says that if you reject God, if you reject his word, you reject who he is and what he says about you, you become a fool.

08:50

One example of becoming a fool is you will live in God's world denying his existence, believing that you came from pond scum and then crying out for justice, which is foolishness.

09:02

Listen, descendants of bacteria have no moral obligation to other descendants of bacteria.

09:08

Now but you do care. You do care. And that's the image of God that you can't shake loose.

09:14

You can't get rid of it. You desire justice. You attribute value and dignity to all these human beings around you,

09:21

Jocelyn. And I admire that about you, but your world, you can't justify it. You have no reason, no basis.

09:28

See, from your perspective, Jocelyn, if I said, I'll bite down, I'll bite. I'll accept,

09:34

Jocelyn, what you say about the world. There is no God. I'll believe Dawkins. All there is is blind and pitiless indifference.

09:40

There is no good. There is no evil. Then if I adopt that position, Jocelyn, I wouldn't be out here doing what you're doing.

09:46

So can you quote me an explanation that does not involve the Bible? Something that explains our world that does not involve your book and the

09:57

Bible. Well, that's impossible in God's world. Can I show you how it doesn't work? Just hear this, and I want to hear what you have to say.

10:04

Imagine for a second you said to me, Jeff, I believe in reason, right? I believe in reason.

10:10

I believe it has to be logical. That's the fundamental basis of all questions and truth is reason, rationality, right?

10:18

And what if I said to you, Jocelyn, okay, that's your starting point. That's your standard. And what if I said to you, okay, can you give me a reason for believing reason is the foundation for everything without using your reason?

10:30

Do you see how that doesn't work? You see, listen, all ultimates are just that, Jocelyn, ultimates.

10:36

And if God is the ultimate, then he is the foundation for everything. He's the principium, the source of all knowledge and all truth.

10:43

You're doing the very same thing I'm doing with reason, right? But I'm doing it with God. And with God, I can have reason and science and morality, but you can't justify and appeal to reason because in your worldview, what is reason,

10:56

Jocelyn? What is reason? So what is your reason for believing in God? If you reject him, if you reject

11:03

God, you become a fool. What scientific proof do you have? Well, I'll give you this. You can't have science without...

11:08

Scientific proof. I'll give it to you right now. Ready? Don't lie. Well, why would you demand that of me when your ancestors were fish?

11:15

Is lying a moral failure? My ancestors were Germans, but anyway. Very good.

11:20

That was a good one. Okay, but I'm talking a little farther back, okay? But why would you... Watch this.

11:25

Just think about that, Jocelyn, for a second. And I want to get back to the science thing. But when you said, don't lie, you just expected me to hold to some absolute moral standard.

11:34

You're preaching the Bible. No, no, no. I'm talking about what you said. You said, don't lie. But from your perspective, if I use your worldview, why not lie?

11:42

So both of us think that each of us are lying. No, no, no, no. Even though we hold that sincerely in our hearts.

11:47

I didn't accuse you. I didn't accuse you of that just now. No, both of us, but we both believe it because you believe as an atheist that I don't...

11:55

I'm lying. No, no, no, no. I'm lying to God. I'm lying to God. No, on this point, Jocelyn, I think you're not hearing me.

12:00

On this point, I'm talking about you accused me. You said, don't lie. And you acted like, Jocelyn, like that matters.

12:06

But you're an atheist. There's no God. Truth matters. No, it doesn't. Not as an atheist. Truth matters. I'm going to take your atheism.

12:13

Ready? My ancestors came here through unguided, unpurposed processes.

12:18

I am the descendant of cosmic accidents. There is no justice ahead of me. I'll take

12:24

Dawkins. There is no good. There is no evil. I have no obligation with that not to lie to you.

12:30

Okay? That's your worldview. No, it's not. But you see, if you take my worldview... No, my worldview has morals.

12:36

How? You're... You're... You're a bipedal protoplasm in a cosmos that doesn't care.

12:43

Okay. I'm going to grasp my head around that one. It's crazy, right? Do you see the foolishness?

12:48

No, I still care. I care about... I know you do because, Jocelyn, you're in the image of God. I know right and wrong. No. God has nothing to do with it.

12:53

You're in the image of God. God has nothing to do with it. Listen. You have to decide. Do I want value and dignity? Do I want morals?

12:59

I already have that. Ready? Do I want to have a basis for it? Or do I want to abandon all of that and embrace my satanic atheism?

13:06

Make a decision, Jocelyn. Not theistic. Okay. Satanism. Okay. Satanism. Okay. It's not theistic.

13:14

Jocelyn. I cannot believe in Jesus Christ. Jocelyn. Because it was so... Your rejection of him leads you to foolishness.

13:20

There were so many gods before him that shared the same resurrection story. Humanity is... The same birth from a virgin story.

13:25

Humanity is no question idolatrous and pagan. But Jocelyn, I just want to say this to your respect.

13:31

But it's all being plagiarized. Because listen. Listen. Listen, Jocelyn. Let me encourage you. Because this is all being recorded,

13:37

I want to honestly encourage you not to say something that would demonstrate that you haven't even done your homework. When you try to compare this...

13:43

Meaning what? When you try to compare the story of Jesus with other pagan myths... To Osiris? With other pagan myths, you demonstrate...

13:50

Ready? It's the same story. That you haven't done your homework. Yes, I have. Okay, ready? So, you think stories in history like a god who was created by other gods, who dies and comes to life in the underworld, that that's a resurrection story?

14:04

I don't know what that story is. That's one of the stories that you're referring to. Do you think that it's a virgin birth if a woman gives birth to an elephant?

14:13

That that compares to the story of Jesus? It's unparalleled, Jocelyn. Wouldn't it be better than the story of Jesus? Well, I think,

14:20

Jocelyn, with your atheism, you've embraced foolishness. And without Jesus, you have no basis, and you've already granted it, for morality, for science, for reason.

14:32

You have no basis. My problem, Mr. Durbin, is I've seen so much hatred towards me in the church my entire life.

14:40

And listen... How can I embrace Christianity when

14:45

I've seen so much hatred towards me? Even as a child. I mean, come on.

14:51

How do you hate a child? Only Christians can hate a child. Listen, I want to say this to you, and I'm not using this as a debate point at all.

15:01

I apologize for every person who's ever abused you and mistreated you.

15:07

Okay? And I want to say that those Christians, if they abused you and mistreated you, they were acting inconsistently with what

15:17

Jesus himself says. They're only demonstrating that there are sinners just like you who need the grace of God and need forgiveness.

15:24

But atheists have never abused me. But have you noticed this? Have you noticed this?

15:30

You're charging and indicting Christians for moral failures, right? Yes, I am. That you cannot justify apart from Jesus.

15:39

Do you see that? You have to borrow from Jesus. I don't understand that question. Okay, think about it for a moment now. You're an atheist who believes that we are evolved pond scum, and you're indicting

15:48

Christians. Nice quote. It's true. They'll get that. It's true. And you're indicting Christians who have a basis for morality, who have absolute standards of truth and morality.

15:56

You're indicting them for being unloving and unkind to you. But with your atheism, you have no moral complaint.

16:02

I wasn't an atheist then. I'm saying now. I wasn't then. No, listen. I wanted to believe in God then.

16:08

Then let me share this with you. And they destroyed that in me. Let me share this with you. They destroyed that. Let me share this with you.

16:16

Those Christians who sinned against you. They didn't sin. Okay. They spoke their true mind.

16:21

Okay. And if they abused you, they were sinning against... They never abused me. I thought you said they did.

16:27

No, they... Unkind. Unkind. They were unloving. Yeah, they never abused me. Not like a priest abusing someone.

16:32

No, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. I don't want to twist it like that. I mean being a... I want to be truthful in this whole thing.

16:39

It's going to go viral. Because you're in the image of God. No, I'm not. Because you have to have truth. Because you have to have justice.

16:45

Am I in the image of God? Yes, you are. No, I'm not. Yes, you are. God says about you... Your friends have already said that.

16:51

You are in the image... They never would say that about you. They've already said it. They would never say you're not in the image of God. They've already said

16:56

I'm a sinner. Let me... Yes, I'm in the image of God and I'm a sinner. Don't give me that.

17:02

I was born a sinner. Please. I am a sinner. That's the ultimate guilt trip. You're born and then you're a sinner.

17:07

Why is that a problem? There's no God. There's no good. There's no evil. Are you telling me a baby is born in sin?

17:13

We're all born to the same parents. We're all born fallen sinful human beings. Now, here's the thing. Why is it a problem?

17:19

Why is it a problem to believe that we're born in sin? Is that a moral failure? You're an atheist. Stick to your atheism.

17:26

You're acting like it matters that we tell things that are true. We're not born in sin and you know that. No, I do know that we are because God has spoken.

17:33

We're born in sin for something that happened allegedly 4 ,000 years ago. Jocelyn, can

17:38

I say this to you? How does my birth can I say this to you? How has it been affected by somebody 4 ,000 years ago that ate an apple?

17:47

Come on, that's silly. It wasn't an apple. Okay, what was it? Nobody knows.

17:52

What did the serpent give up? Nobody knows. God made a command to them. He would bless them and he said, don't do this.

17:57

It could have been anything. Everybody was born in sin. God could have said don't pick up sticks, don't turn that direction, don't give somebody a mean stare.

18:04

The point was as God said, I'm the creator. I created all things. I created you to be an intimate relationship with me and one another and here's what

18:10

I'm saying, don't do. Don't do this. And they said, no, I'll choose for myself. I'm going to do it. And they rebelled.

18:16

Now watch, you say, you just said, we're not sinners, we're not born in sin and yet you identified for me how all these people have sinned against you and hurt you in your life.

18:28

And Jocelyn, can I say this to you? They didn't hurt me. They discouraged me from Christianity. Is that a problem? Yes. Why is it a problem?

18:35

If you want to save me, that's a problem. Is it a moral failure? It's a moral failure on Christians. And why does that matter?

18:41

Are there absolute standards? I'm an atheist, it doesn't matter. Are there absolute standards? I know it doesn't, thank you. You just granted it. But I got a question.

18:47

So you mentioned the man picking up sticks. So the man picking up sticks on Sunday that was condemned to death, do you agree with that?

18:56

Yeah. He wasn't just randomly picking up sticks. He defied God to his face. And he picked up some sticks.

19:03

And that is what he did. He was defying God to his face. Now watch.

19:09

I have a world view that can make sense of that. But your world view says that all of us were just protoplasm in a cosmically indifferent universe and yet here you are.

19:16

what I believe. You told me you're an atheist. Do you believe in the Big Bang? Huh? Do you believe in Darwinian evolution?

19:21

I don't know what I believe. Okay. But I don't know that Christianity I don't know that the Bible is Jocelyn. I don't believe the

19:28

Bible is real. Jocelyn. I cannot believe that. Let me tell you my love for you. If the Bible is real show me evidence of the flood.

19:33

I'll give you Well that's all over. That's all over. I don't think that's a problem for you. I don't think that's a problem for you.

19:39

Jocelyn, I don't think your problem is evidence Show me the archaeological I don't think your problem is evidence for the flood.

19:44

In over 200 cultures around the world that have the flood story and narrative in their story the

19:50

Hopi Indians who tell the same story I don't think your problem is evidence for the flood with all the different levels of sediment all over the world that we can examine animals found at higher levels up here that shouldn't be there that obviously was the result of a catastrophic flood.

20:04

Where's your proof of that? Your problem is that to talk about evidence at all because you have no justification for logic no justification for science

20:16

I'm agnostic in all things Ok, great I will believe what is proven to me

20:21

Great, let me do this then when you talk about proof proof requires logic granted absolute standards of logic granted universal granted unchanging granted necessary granted

20:35

It requires a universe where there's induction the future will be like the past it requires integrity

20:42

I don't know about that Ok, well you said science all science is based on induction I'm not a scientist that's fine all science is based on induction

20:49

I don't know about the future that's fine I'll just throw it out so you don't have to answer it just so you have it all science is based upon induction that the future will be like the past that the world is uniform ok and all proof requires integrity that I not lie to you while I tell you something right now all those things

21:07

I don't think you would thank you to the best of your knowledge all of those things require a justification now

21:13

I can justify all those things with the God that's revealed himself in the Bible so for example that's not justification take this for example ready that's not scientific proof two people ready

21:22

I'm saying that laws of logic are universal they are necessary and unchanging and I believe that they are immaterial right you're an atheist now you tell me why you believe as an atheist people must hold to laws of logic you're assuming that atheists believe in laws of logic

21:45

I know that's going to come across badly so you say you don't I believe in logic

21:51

I believe in reason I believe in my own moral code my own moral code is probably more absolute than your well we're talking about logic we'll get to that in a minute but logic laws of logic you said prove it in order to prove anything you need logic now

22:05

I'm asking you as an atheist are I said are laws of logic universal you said yes are they necessary yes you've been doing this for ten years you're very good at twisting these words

22:16

I just want to talk to you not twisting anything as an atheist you're trying to catch me and catch me too for those idiots no

22:22

I'm asking you just to give me an answer why must I hold to the laws of logic with atheism

22:27

I know how I do as a Christian why must you hold to the laws of logic with Christianity ok great I'll answer that laws of logic are they made of matter let me ask you that are they material can we hold on to them to the best of my knowledge no you can't smell a law of logic you can't taste one you can't grab one laws of logic are abstract entities they're universal unchanging entities they're immaterial they're not made of matter now in your universe in an atheistic universe all we have is matter and motion there are no immaterial entities but in my worldview there's not just the material realm there's the immaterial and there's

23:02

God who is spirit who is unchanging who cannot lie that is to say

23:10

God can't engage in logical contradiction our thinking is to be a reflection of his thinking in his light we see light

23:16

God demands of us that we're consistent and God even says this Jocelyn come let us reason together says the

23:22

Lord I have a basis as a Christian to demand laws of logic but listen Jocelyn you're an atheist laws of logic can't exist in your worldview so describe to me

23:33

Christianity and logic I just did no you did not I don't think you were listening I was listening can

23:38

I ask you this and I don't mean this to be abusive have you been drinking this morning not at all what's that not at all

23:44

I can smell a little bit of it that might be part of the problem as to why a lot of this isn't catching I don't mean that to be abusive to you but I mean that in sincerity

23:51

I don't think you just heard what I said to you I gave you the Christian justification no you're saying Christians can claim logic but atheists can't

23:58

I just gave you a justification how is that I gave you a justification now what is your justification for immaterial universal abstract entities like laws of logic you're a pro at this let me ask you this

24:10

I'll ask you in a simpler way can I touch logic no no thank you good ok is logic necessary in Iceland and in Arizona it depends on what you're doing with it is it is it unchanging are laws of logic unchanging

24:28

I think logic changes you think it changes yeah it changes yeah so right now if I was to just start speaking to you in gibberish right if you said

24:39

Jeff prove God to me and I started saying and apples and Planned Parenthood ground red and rock haha

24:49

I proved God to you I would think would you accept it I would think you were speaking in tongues would you very good but would you accept it as logical no because logic doesn't change

24:58

Jocelyn and you know that how do you know it doesn't change well cause you're reasoning right now well I would say first of all the character of God but you're reasoning right now demonstrating you can't keep going back to that well

25:08

I have a basis for laws of logic and you've demonstrated you don't I have demonstrated that I do no you don't listen

25:15

Jocelyn why must I as a bag of biological stuff hold to laws of logic why

25:23

I don't even know what that question means that's the problem that's the problem Jocelyn but Jocelyn that's just a silly little question to trap people like me

25:31

Jocelyn come here you know that question I'm not trapping you I'm not trapping you no you're demanding of us that we use laws of logic that we use science but Jocelyn listen you don't have any basis you don't have any basis to hold to it you don't yes

25:47

I do Jocelyn you haven't given any reason yes I do Jocelyn I care for you I love you listen I know that this

25:55

I know you out me on your Facebook pages and everything else Jocelyn we only we only care for you is it true what's gonna happen if something happens to me because some idiot sees a

26:06

Facebook page of you and comes after me no because he dislikes me Jocelyn I would despise something like that it's happened listen listen look from my heart do

26:17

I believe that what you are doing is sinful and rebellious yes yes but listen listen

26:22

Jocelyn please let me finish just let me finish the one part no no no you just made it what I'm doing no I'm not doing anything

26:28

I'm living my life I know I know the way my life was supposed to be I just want you to hear listen you can disagree but do

26:34

I believe it yes but do I hate you do I have any lack of love for you then why do you oppose me no because I love you no and I love

26:42

God no that doesn't work listen listen God said when you oppose someone you dislike them God said it's not because you love them

26:49

God said love him love our neighbors we're going back to this guy again it is out of my love for him and you that I am standing here right now pleading with you turn from your sin to Christ Jocelyn listen

26:59

I have no sin one more thing one more thing there are people here you have to hear this you don't we're not saying to you

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Jocelyn you need to turn from your transgenderism and become a straight person and then you'll be saved we're saying listen it's more than just your sexuality it's for me more than my sexuality

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I am in my past sexually broken and sinful and rebellious it's not just my sexuality that's distorted it's the way that I love

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God and love everyone it's my sin my pride my fallenness it's not Jocelyn we're not saying Jocelyn become a straight person

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God will then love you we're saying Jocelyn you've got nothing you've got nothing to offer him you are broken and fallen and you need

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Jesus I don't want to offer him anything you need to be forgiven and cleansed how can you offer something to someone you don't believe in well

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I mean come on listen if somebody said that's like me offering something to the Easter Bunny Jocelyn if somebody said

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I don't believe in laws of logic therefore they don't exist we're going back to this again I'm asking you about it this is your stone cold argument which

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I'm not familiar with and that's fine it's one aspect if someone told you forget me for a moment ok if someone told you hey

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Jocelyn I don't believe in laws of logic therefore they don't exist therefore I don't have to appeal to them what would you say to that person you're going to twist that around I won't twist it

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I'm asking you I want to know your what would you say to them I'm going to say that doesn't exist but you're going to twist that around to saying logic only exists no no no you're missing me by god no no you're missing me it's totally different if you're an atheist you don't believe it it's a different subject if somebody said to you

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Jocelyn I don't believe in laws of logic I don't think I have to hold to them therefore they don't exist

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I think you'd be like you're telling tales out of the school yard you're crazy you have to hold a lot of care if you believe in logic it's the truth it's necessary it's like there's a shirt that says gravity it's not just a good idea it's the law right you can say

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I don't believe in gravity all you want but it's holding you down while you're talking and you can say all day that you don't believe he's there you can say all day that you despise his justice and his love but it doesn't change the fact no no no god but it doesn't change the fact that Jocelyn he's there and you know him you know him in your heart and so is god and you know him in your heart of hearts everything you do testifies watch watch this everything

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I do testifies to the fact that you know him yes that you know the true god like for example all of your desire for justice and love and truth and integrity that doesn't come from your atheism

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Jocelyn that comes from the image of god that is all over you you haven't been able to shake it loose and you never will so my desire for marriage equality for homosexuals comes from the image of god no your desire no no no that comes from god right no you see image bearers of god that you believe you believe are being oppressed but watch watch in your world view

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Jocelyn that you've embraced I go after everybody that's oppressed and I like there's some value and dignity like there's some value and dignity in descendants of fish have you ever been oppressed oh yes but watch

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I have a basis you're a white male I have a basis to call it oppression and injustice no you do not because I have the word of god

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I believe that human beings in the image of god you have not seen hatred they have value you have not seen violence there's nothing wrong with violence on people there's nothing wrong with violence there's nothing wrong with violence on whom in your world view ok so who is it ok to do violent times

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I didn't say it's ok in my world view it's wrong you just said there's nothing wrong with violence in your world view no you're twisting my world view no

30:36

I'm standing in your world view I don't understand your world view you don't understand my world view are you an atheist yes great do you believe that we evolved are you going to ask me if I'm a libertarian no no no come on we'll get to that tomorrow we'll go to bad max

30:50

I mean do you believe do you believe we evolved yes to get here do you believe that we are

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African apes yes I have no idea what we came from ok but the point is you believe that we came here

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I do not know the answer I'm sorry it's ok no no no I'm not asking you to give me the specifics you don't know the answer either you're just claiming to know the answer no

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I do know with certainty God created me and he created you and that explains why you ascribe so much dignity how is the earth so much older than what the bible says it is that has to do with your presuppositions that has to do with the way the earth is round woo stupid flat earthers um anyway my point and I think you haven't caught it yet and I hope you do

31:34

Jocelyn if anything from today you know I'm not if anything from today I hope you at least catch what I'm saying to you you're gonna walk away from here today and you're gonna act like there's something more to these human beings than protoplasm you won't be able to shake them loose

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Jocelyn and I want you to know just if anything else you hear is that Jesus is God who came in the flesh to rescue rebels like me and you and he will forgive and he will give grace to all who come to him for life he died and rose again

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Jocelyn you gotta turn to him for life and forgiveness it's not because you're a sinner like me no

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I'm not you need him Jocelyn you're broken and you know it Jocelyn you're broken and you know it

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Jocelyn what would lead a person who is truly happy who truly has peace what would lead them to come here on a

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Saturday morning and to come here and to be drinking obviously to be drinking a

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Saturday morning how can you be truly at peace and full of joy if this is the life that you've chosen how could you truly have it and you're here a

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Saturday morning warring against us who are trying to defend the lives of babies while you come here drinking

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Jocelyn you're not full of happiness and peace you're torn up inside I know you are because your religion has attacked me

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I explain that those Christians if they hurt you has attacked me how so can you explain everything your religion does

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I'm gonna attack them back can you explain how Christians have attacked you they go after everything that is transgender they want to revoke my rights can

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I ask you this and I just wanna know your answer to this I'm gonna try to see a basis because you're an atheist and I don't know what you say is an absolute truth or moral position you cannot confuse what

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I say as a not truth you sound like Jeff Sessions saying an atheist can't tell the truth no no no

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I believe that atheists can tell the truth but they don't have any basis to say why they would a

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Christian tells the truth and that's not a problem that's not a problem you're an atheist you're an atheist there's no

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God right there's no meaning there's no purpose there's no value but yet you see you can't shake it there was again there was the image of God you can't shake it loose you can't shake it loose what is the image of God well you're a reflection of God himself

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God created us in his likeness to be like him in his world to enjoy him and each other right delight in God right now

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I wanted to say your God I want to ask you is a list of negative rights Jocelyn let me and you know it no no no he's a list of positives love he's a list of negative rights your neighbor love your neighbor well let me ask you you don't have a problem with like a negative right let me ask you this is it okay for men to kidnap little boys or girls and to rape them and dismember them is it allowed in your world view is it okay for priests to sexually molest children no it is a wicked sin and those priests deserve to die and both of them are no amen but I have a basis to complain don't amen me every priest that molested a child deserves the death penalty what about every

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Christian every Christian every professing Christian who molested a child deserves the death penalty now that we got that out of the way by the way the reason

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I can say that is because this Bible it demands that of people who rape or molest now let me ask you but your

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Bible also tells people from your position that you own the women and the children that you invade well hold on you don't have any problem with any of that you're a bag of photo problems no

34:58

I have a problem with that go ahead girl thanks a lot okay let's get a satanic sticker on it now now so I want to ask you

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I have a basis to complain about the molester right I have an absolute standard but what's your basis to complain about the man who kidnaps or rapes a small child is that condemned in your world view yes it is why that's a bag of protoplasm because when your rights infringe upon another person's rights you lose your rights who created that standard you a man just like a man created your standard what man whatever man why does that obligate me because some bag of stardust made noise so some man created your standard no

35:43

God spoke yes through men he was inspired God spoke yes through men and revealed himself but your position is that all of us are descendants of fish and you're saying that some descendants of fish said you ought not to hurt

35:55

I'm not an evolutionist you're an atheist I'm not an evolutionist I thought you said you were no

36:02

I'm not an evolutionist so how did we get here I'm an atheist just because I don't believe doesn't mean

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I can explain it so you're a Christian you can't explain it I can absolutely with certainty no you can't

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God has revealed himself and he spoken to us believable well I've already demonstrated to you that your position collapses because you have no justification for all these appeals to science logic and morality you're literally living by faith

36:26

Jocelyn is this the same speech you gave the Mormons no they have a different world view no they have a different world view than you totally different world views now all of these appeals you make all you say ultimately

36:36

Jocelyn is well I believe by faith I accept it by faith no I don't believe in faith no you do no you already said you do you said

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I don't know but that's what I believe I may have said that you may be twisting my words you can watch this again you'll see

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I know what I believe oh I'm sure it'll be up so great example is that you have no complaint against the child molester by the way

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I'm not a spokesman well that's alright I mean I think that this conversation

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Jocelyn demonstrates something that we can have a loving respectful caring conversation with each other outside of an abortion mill when your religion stops attacking me

37:17

Jocelyn maybe we can this is what I wanted to get to stop attacking my rights well I'll say this one last thing okay

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I wanted to see how you felt your religion stops attacking my rights then maybe we can agree on something what if what if the child molester said that to you you just condemned you're comparing me to a child molester no no no you didn't hear that no

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I didn't Jocelyn Jocelyn I didn't say it you said you'd have integrity

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I didn't say that I said you condemned the child molester right yes it does what if they said to you what if they said to you that you condemned the child molester rightly you condemned them now what if they said to you

37:59

Jocelyn um stop infringing on my rights you would say what are you crazy

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I'm not infringing on your rights when your rights intrude on another person's rights they are null and void so let's get let's get to this just like the greatest example right now and this isn't going to happen but let's say you pushed your hand out to touch me and your rights ended at the point your hand touched me because they affected me that is the way that's explained no

38:30

I but no but I have a basis to say all of that you don't you're an atheist let's get back to this why still haven't answered why does your religion attack transgender people

38:40

I've just tried to explain no you did not you just tried to explain you did not you were talking about child molesters ok let me change it then

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I'll change the scenario you were talking about child molesters let me change the scenario ok let's say that there's a man who is married with 8 children and you find out sounds like a mormon he does you find out you find out that his wife finds out that for the last 10 years he has been cheating on her with hookers he has been sleeping around and she finds out she has an

39:12

STD would you morally condemn that man for his behavior what does that have to do with transgender

39:18

I'm answering would you condemn him would you say that's not right if he made a covenant with whatever and he made a promise to this woman promises matter promises matter then yes not in your atheism

39:33

I would condemn him but but no no you're not answering the question you keep avoiding it I'm getting to it why does your religion hate transgender people

39:39

I'm getting to it I do not hate you why do you oppose us at every step the scriptures command us to love you and anybody that falls short of that tell us why you hate us

39:52

I don't hate you I just said I don't and the bible commands us to love you can I I'm trying to answer

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I'm trying to answer can you give me can you give me 20 seconds to get the answer out you're going into child molesters that are

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Mormons ready 20 seconds let me finish the thought I demonstrated to you that you do condemn people for behavior sexual behavior that is not morally right you condemn the adulterer but the bible tells us more than just adultery is fallen and sinful and disharmonious it tells us a number of things and listen homosexuality is one of those things so is adultery so is heterosexual sin before marriage it's not just it's not just homosexual sin it's heterosexual sin and one of those things that displays fallenness is when men the bible says men go to be with men and women to women because it is disharmonious and against nature now watch

40:51

I've already demonstrated to you that you do condemn people for sexually broken behavior the christian says we're not talking about sex we're talking about gender the christian says we're talking about gender fantastic it's different then let me give you the gender the bible says that God created us male and female then how did he create intersex people we live in a fallen world and there are obviously instances of brokenness and we have to come alongside and love people who are sexually broken and anyway but watch so where does it start where does it stop well let me just demonstrate to you you said that you were a white male

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I was defined white male at birth and I know this is getting intensely personal if you don't want to answer so you don't have to of course bring it but tell me where I need to stop because I don't want to be offensive or abusive you've already been offensive but I care for you telling the truth isn't offensive or abusive were you born with male parts for the most part yes okay and if we were to do a biological examination of your

42:00

DNA your makeup would it be male or female I have no idea never done it okay well let's assume that if we did a scientific test you're already assuming and we're going this way and that way well

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I'm saying the scriptures define for us gender roles we don't care what the scriptures say I know you don't but I'm saying now if I leap into your position and I say okay scientifically now what parts were you born with and what are you genetically

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I'd be willing to bet you're a white male what brain were you born with it's already been proven that at 12 weeks no you're already saying at 12 weeks the person is a human being so at 12 weeks the brain is formed and then at 18 weeks the body's genetic starts to be formed if there is a hormonal imbalance no no that's not true

42:46

Jocelyn that is true it's not true you cannot contradict what universities have said Jocelyn your religion does not say that you just said that it's like 18 weeks when the genetics start forming it's at the moment of conception that all the biological components of a human being get into play this goes into birth control no

43:06

I'm talking about the science the science of what takes place at the moment of conception

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I'm wrong that's why they're still trying to find it because it doesn't exist so what about intersex people so you asked me the question about the bible you asked me the question about the bible when you say intersex what do you mean they're born with both parts yes there is a small number of human beings you're standing really close to one right now that are born that are born that are disfigured when they're born they're born with parts of them that are broken so what are they supposed to do we have to come alongside people just like that and love them and take time ok so what we don't do is start hacking away at body parts no your world view is saying we're gonna look at what the body shows but we don't care what is inside the brain you don't

43:57

I mean you don't care what's inside the brain these people are gonna kill themselves what just happened what would you say to the person that came to you and said

44:05

Jocelyn I'm struggling right now and you said well tell me why you're struggling how can I help you and they said I feel like my legs aren't supposed to be there like I look

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I wake up every day and I'm horrified over the fact that I have that is a stupid analogy no there are people that have this body dysphoria they have a problem with their body parts and they say my arms doesn't belong to my body at this point would you advise them to cut it off at this point is over because you're going to legs and that's stupid that doesn't involve the brain

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I think it shows a self refutation because the brain the brain ok

44:40

Jocelyn I love you Jocelyn whenever you want to talk we'll talk again ok can we do this yes thank you