Trip Report and Debate Review

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:29

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line, a road trip dividing line. I am hmm

00:36

Not quite a third of the way maybe across the great nation of Texas because I'm going a long ways

00:45

Started off in Shreveport this morning Just across the border into Texas.

00:51

Wow roads improve a lot. I Still think

00:56

Louisiana needs to start a Benevolence fund for those of us who have to drive through, Louisiana We will we will donate out of the charity of our hearts to try to Fix those roads.

01:08

But anyway We are I'm not I I used to tell people where I was and Then I thought better of it, but I'm in an

01:18

RV park. There's a It's a hint for you. There are a few of them in Texas. Trust me.

01:23

I'm in an RV park On the I will tell you I'm on the west side. I've already passed

01:29

Dallas and Fort Worth. So I'm Heading heading across the 20 don't go on the southern route the same way.

01:36

I came out basically and So Well, no, it's not

01:42

I mean I didn't come across the 20, but I'll eventually have to drive through El Paso Yeah, that is a pain.

01:49

Let me tell you it doesn't matter what time of day it is getting through El Paso is Ugly narrow lanes construction.

01:55

I think it'll always be that way. But Anyways, love it out here Love being in the

02:01

RV that you all have provided to us and this thing keeps falling down And I don't know why but I am going to I'm gonna tape this thing up.

02:10

That's what I'm gonna do I'm just gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna get back there and I'm gonna It will never move again

02:17

But yes, we are on our I pulled into this slot and There's nobody in the row that I'm in there might be now.

02:25

I can't see over there, but so I was getting set up and Here comes this big fifth wheel and it they've got a big dually and They're about two feet longer than I am and This is a big unit

02:43

So this is really big unit and as they're going by me. I'm sort of looking at him and the whole the bottom side of an

02:51

RV is Fabric basically stapled up with Insulation and stuff like that so they can remove it they can get the stuff and then put it back up and The whole bottom of this thing is almost dragging on the ground.

03:08

I mean I can see insulation I can see wood I mean, this isn't good. I'm just sort of like as they're driving by and I wasn't sure where they were going

03:18

Because I was on the other side of the RV and I saw him pull in over here and I stopped man I better make sure

03:24

I mean they've got it. No, you know, but I go walking over there and Guy sees me coming and he what can

03:33

I do for you? and I said, I'm sure I'm telling you what you already know, but And then

03:39

I point and he backs away from the front of you. Oh great, he said no,

03:44

I didn't know and So I talked with he and his wife and You know, she said he spent the last two days underneath that thing working on the brakes and it was sort of that Oh getting so tired of this type thing and I get it.

03:59

You know, we've had things happen with this one But you you sort of get over it eventually

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But it was just sort of a it's a community thing. You know, I mean we're all

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I'd want them to do that for me and As I said to them I said well, we're all fighting the same battles, you know

04:18

Do you have what you need? You know, I've got my staple gun. He's got These things start off nice and light and then you collect every kind of tool and gizmo on the planet over the years and they weigh ten tons heavier by the time you get done because of all the repairing you have to do

04:40

Just just how it works it is how it works and you may go I'll just stay at a hotel believe you me

04:46

Well, it's time to go to bed tonight. I'm gonna lay down on my own bed on my own pillow And I'm gonna have eaten my own food and I'm gonna sleep so much better So much better.

04:56

So I thank all of you that make it possible the travel fund the day of men org. That's how we do this and You know every time we get back we we've got stuff we got to fix

05:07

It's not that the this isn't a great unit. It is it's that you I Don't care how well you build it you drag it over these roads long enough and stuff shakes loose and You know

05:23

This is a fantastic year. I mean, I just I was telling actually I was telling

05:28

John Cooper today. I'll skill it Somehow I had not filled him in on how we had gotten this unit.

05:36

I Sent him a picture while I was driving of this unit and He what was his

05:44

I am going to read you John Cooper's response When yeah,

05:50

I says that meet big red his response was holy smokes with five exclamation

06:01

Pastor Trey Fisher There at the parish Parish Church the

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Redeemer in Calhoun I Pulled into his yard with this thing and he's like that's a house

06:14

And I said, yeah, it is and he's got a big diesel pusher. So I said, yeah, she's a house and I'm so thankful for You know,

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I I may sleep better in here than I do at home I might it's true

06:30

There's no toys about but anyway You know, let me just mention I'm not sure if we're gonna try to grab the audio just what but What one of the great things about traveling like this being out on the road?

06:47

are the pastors you get to me and A couple years ago.

06:54

I met skip rainbow and his guys when I first came to Shreveport I was now that was before I knew about the bypass around Shreveport I Went through the middle of Shreveport and let me tell you something they are working on it

07:12

But the roads that I went over Oh good The the roads that I went over that first time

07:21

Not passable. I'm sorry. They were I was doing 25 miles per hour in a freeway. It was so bad anyway

07:28

Evidently, I stayed at a park close out toward Fillmore Houghton area and I'd forgotten that anyways, we got together in a

07:35

Mexican restaurant and with his guys and we were just talking theology and talking life and you know living the

07:42

Christian life and and things like that and you you just get to You know

07:49

Trey Fisher and his elders We've got a real good connection with them and apologia

07:56

My fellow pastor Luke Who has a heart as big as Luke is and Luke the bear is a big boy

08:02

I mean, I I look up to Luke literally And I Keep hitting the microphone because I'm doing what

08:12

Rich told me to do. I'm wearing the microphone I don't know if he's gonna be happy about that. I've got the lights up.

08:18

I've done everything Rich has asked me to do I really really have Um, but I keep end up hitting the thing so that'll probably end up making interesting noises anyways

08:28

You know Brian Gunter down in Livingston and Skip Rainbolt and Trey Fisher and all these pastors that I have been ministering with preaching at their churches and And They've shown trust to have me in because you've got to trust the people that you put in front of your folks you really do

08:53

It's just so encouraging to me to see these faithful pastors in rural areas smaller areas smaller churches, you know,

09:03

Brian's doing so much with the young people in his church and and You know, he had me come over there at 6 3 in the morning the day.

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I'm doing a debate To meet with like 15 teenagers at a restaurant, you know for like 20 minutes and That's just how much he is concerned about them he wants to invest in them and it's encouraging to me but it's also encouraging it should be encouraging to you you support this ministry and You hear these folks talking about how much

09:35

Alpha Omega has meant to them over the years and I Spoke on the rise of anti -semitism in the church at Skip's Church on Saturday night and then the

09:52

Sunday morning sermon we're gonna try to post as well where I talked about psychedelics chapter 2 and God if you refusing to love the truth

10:02

God causes you to Believe a lie, and I'm tying that with what's going on in Colorado right now and You know,

10:11

I was talking again another great pastor up in Colorado a church that I ministered at last year and He's telling me today

10:20

The local the small local churches are coming out and they're fighting this insanity if you don't know

10:25

Colorado pushing the most radical insane evil demonic Bill To in essence make it impossible to be a

10:35

Christian parent in Colorado I mean, this is Colorado's way saying we hate you. God Christians get out of here.

10:41

We want nothing but Debauchery in in our in our state. They've been saying that for a long time, but now they're they're coming right out with it

10:50

He said it's the small churches that are standing up. The mega churches aren't doing anything and You know why they've got a big building to pay for they've got a budget that's the problem and so anyway

11:08

Just getting to hear Saturday night at Fillmore Baptist Church fella came up to me with his sons after the service and Lo and behold the guy ministers to Muslims in Istanbul, I'm not gonna mention any names

11:29

But he he's written some books and I'm looking through the books. They look really good and My work my book

11:40

Whatever Christian he's about to come on, you know, it was part of what encourages part of what?

11:47

Gives him You know information and foundation and encourages him to do the things he's doing

11:55

We'll just we'll just never know in this life Where This program especially ends up going it's and we had no idea

12:08

I'm look I remember that office in the garage at Rich's house

12:14

When we didn't have enough money to pay the radio bill and so we were this real audio stuff seems to work let's try that, you know, and we didn't have some grand global vision of of Christian webcasting and all the rest that stuff.

12:30

We were just just trying to be faithful what we had at the time and It is astonishing what the

12:36

Lord has done. It really Really is and I'd say despite us not because of us but in spite of us

12:44

What he's done is just Absolutely amazing. It really is So yeah

12:51

Exciting stuff we were in that garage for 13 years rich says Yep, and it's now a garage again, that's that's the that's almost a sad part to me is

13:03

Is that it's a garage again? That place where my library was and we did the dividing that was that was where I was when we did the first radio free

13:13

Geneva in response to Rogers Adrian Rogers, I Man, did that?

13:21

Get a response. Yeah That was With something else

13:26

Yes. Yes, it's and I it was one of the bedrooms of that house is where I wrote the

13:32

King James only controversy. Oh Yeah, yeah Yeah, you know you try to be faithful and little and then you get to do other stuff

13:43

I guess and When when people look at me right now they go, oh, yeah There's almost nobody in that congregation there and you're in an

13:53

RV in an RV park, man You're hooking up a sewer house and I go. Yep. I sure am

13:59

I love it. I Love it and I'm gonna keep doing it and You know and not just because Let's say the pendulum swings back the other direction and Freedom flies out the window and the only way you're gonna be able to get around is in one of these things and all these folks

14:24

Jetting around the day are gonna be calling me. I would go. Okay, you said you'd help us out Give us a class.

14:32

What have you learned? Because Yeah, I'm I'm over 65 ,000 miles now pulling one of these these beasties and So, yeah

14:46

Enjoying it. So what happened last week? I'm probably get together with Jeremiah nor tear.

14:53

I think tomorrow evening if I can again it all depends One of the things you're on the road

14:59

I'm out here in the middle of nowhere. There are two horses Literally I can throw a rock and and hit the horses.

15:06

I'm not gonna do that. I like horses, but they're right over there There's a there's there's livestock over there

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Trees all around. I'm in the middle of nowhere and I have 5g ultra wide four or five bars maximum bars

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Don't even know how that works. Oh, never mind. I just found the 5g tower right over there.

15:29

That's why okay so, uh, I Don't know what

15:35

I'll have tomorrow so I don't know that I'll necessarily be able to do this, but Jeremiah and I're gonna try to get together and do a debate review

15:45

Because Jeremiah Moderated the debate with a K Richardson and I didn't

15:52

I was gonna show this I wonder if I I Think I can

15:58

Yeah, there we go. Let's stop that Let me see here

16:07

I Wasn't playing on showing you anything. So I didn't you know sort of Do all this stuff real nicely

16:19

But I knew you'd do that it keeps defaulting back to not

16:31

Mirroring The way it's supposed to mirror and I I don't know how to stop it from doing that But I do give me just a second here.

16:39

This is this is live. You know how this is So that should be mirroring and I don't know why it keeps going back to mirror from built -in display

16:59

It's got to make sure to do that before the program starts next time anyway, I'm not sure why it defaults back but check this out so here is a program with Layton flowers

17:15

Aka Richardson and Warren McGrew Can God survive trillions of freewill decisions

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Romans 9 debate review? Obviously I was far too nice to mr.

17:31

Richardson and I really did try to try to he was very sensitive about his

17:36

Church of Christ affiliation being made a big part of anything and If I'd wanted you to derail that debate and get off into stuff

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I could have but I didn't I wanted to say focus on Romans 9 and especially in its context

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So the reality is he's the one going off. He's the one who went off into weird stuff and It just seems that none of these folks understand if you read open theists

18:06

If you read I Still need to fix that rich.

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I'm so teeny -tiny down there and You need to you need to send me written instructions on because it's not gonna it's not gonna stick

18:23

Obviously, it doesn't stick. I don't know why but anyway if you read people who really defend

18:33

Creaturely libertarian freedom, by the way that came up. He asked me did Adam have libertarian freedom? I said yes, and then immediately said, you know,

18:40

I mean that within the creaturely realm. It's under the decree of God I'm just saying he didn't have a fall in nature and man.

18:46

Everyone's gone nuts and they're ignoring everything else. I said about it It's almost as bad as the Ignatius thing in the

18:52

Heshmeyer debate, you know Rather than dealing with what the debate was actually about but can

18:58

God survive trillions of free will decisions? and so if you read open theists, you know that any

19:05

Violation of human free will is repugnant to them and They they just the idea that it would happen over and over and over again.

19:15

Now Richardson did not give us any kind of Coherent explanation. All I kept saying is well

19:20

God has a way to get it done. Well, that's nice That that's that's cool. But what do you mean?

19:25

He has a way to get how can you call it libertarian free? well, if it is subject to the decree of God in the sense that They are rebel sinners cannot do as pleasing to God and God is going to accomplish

19:42

His purpose at the time he wishes to accomplish purpose so you can't have Options a

19:47

B C and D and you've heard those who you've listened. I've debated people who said yeah Paul could have said no and Then God would have gone with somebody else and then if they had said no he would have gone to somebody else and over and over Again, that's that's the consistent view

20:03

But all I was trying to say In the debate, by the way, I did an entire hour -long program before I did this.

20:10

Um, someone else's webcast. Um, all I was trying to say was

20:16

If you affirm that for example the timing of the crucifixion That Herod Pontius Pilate Sosa were to be involved with it that Judas was to be the son of perdition

20:28

The number of quote -unquote free will decisions that would have to be completely controlled by God is

20:36

Immense now, maybe they're trying to be Molinus, but I don't think they are and You know

20:43

Molinus them then depends on the ungrounded Unfounded concept of middle knowledge.

20:50

So they're just being inconsistent. They're this way being they're just admitting. Yes. God will accomplish his decree

20:56

But he will mysteriously do it somehow Without violating anyone's libertarian free will which is not under his decree or something

21:04

I don't know. But hey if you're if you're hanging out with McGrew and And and Layton I should have obviously been significantly more

21:16

Direct, but we'll get to that in a second. Did it did it to do and there we go.

21:22

And So let's talk about the debates that's why we did the Louisiana loop and Let's let's talk about about the debates.

21:32

Let's talk about the debate. Is the King James version the best English translation?

21:39

I Really like a Doug Levesque, he's a very nice guy nice wife

21:47

The people that were associated with him are nice people It was not an aggressive or nasty debate in any way shape or form which

21:58

Let's be honest most King James only debates end up there and When we were approached to do this by representative of the

22:09

King James Bible Research Council One of the things that was emphasized to us was we're not rockmanites.

22:18

We're not rippling rights We don't believe in double inspiration so the

22:24

Bible is inspired originally and then it was re -inspired in 16 between 1604 and 1611 You know, so we're not we're not into any of that stuff and I'm like Okay, that that's that sounds great.

22:40

That's uh, that's good But Then I went and got

22:48

Presentations I went to the website and I listened to a couple of Presentations that Doug Levesque had given and a few years ago.

22:55

There was they did a big conference and he did one on Themes or I forget exactly what what what it was

23:07

But you know, he described he said I see these two manuscripts and he's talking about Sinaiticus and Vaticanus As soon as anyone does that I know that they are way way behind in textual critical study

23:22

Because you know, what's gotten hurt may have you know over emphasized? Signing at Sinaiticus and Vaticanus But we've had the papyri discovered since then that verified many of the unique readings in in those two you know like John 118 but not gonna stay off and There's just been so much since then

23:43

CBGM now and and this kind of stuff that You know, but but he said

23:49

I see these two manuscripts and and just a few others along with it and they're burning in the flames of hell and Lucifer is standing up out of them burning in the flames of hell and then over here we have the

24:03

Byzantine texts and there's the beautiful angel and it and I'm just I'm just going oh

24:11

Okay And you know even in his opening statement he talked about heretics corrupted texts

24:19

You know, and I'm I'm sitting here going. Okay. Well Look Ruckman wouldn't be this nice.

24:25

That's obvious But what's the real difference? Here what when it comes down to the the nitty -gritty?

24:34

What's the real difference? and I had been told

24:40

That a representative of their organization had debated Dr. Ward Last year and in the debate.

24:47

It said yes, the King James Should be edited Which is what

24:53

Bergen said and any Any honest person promoting the majority text the

25:03

Byzantine text Even an honest person presenting the TR Will Say yeah the

25:12

King James at you know acts 530 Could be edited.

25:18

It can be made clear. It can be rendered more clearly This guy said that it could be edited and he got fired

25:26

No longer associated with the organization, that's what I was told And I'm like, hmm.

25:32

Okay, I I wonder how this is really gonna go And The his opening statement

25:46

Didn't even touch the text and and by the way in the preceding things he had done He said we've already won the textual battle.

25:52

It's been over forever and you know, just dismissively just like oh, that's that you know, and So, you know

26:01

I get up and I present numerous examples of Of Textual and translational issues where modern translations like the

26:14

LSB are superior to the King James and That that the

26:19

King James translators themselves would have agreed the response

26:26

Isn't a response and I even said in my second rebuttal. I said I've you noticed

26:31

Only one side of us only one side has quoted a single Bible verse so far And so when he gets up, well, here's lots of Bible verses and he just starts

26:41

Quoting Bible verse he doesn't say why it's relevant. He doesn't say how this is Has anything to do with what

26:48

I've said or what he said? He did a bunch of stuff about get grip tie It stands written

26:56

That had nothing to do it may have spoken inspiration nothing to do with a 17th century

27:02

English translation of the Bible It was really Troubling and they'll be getting to cross -examination and As is often the case in debates, that's where the wheels fell off Because I would

27:25

I pressed I pressed a text that is not in the

27:30

King James only convert There are a lot of problems

27:36

With the text of Revelation in the Texas Receptus, and so you can only include so many

27:42

Um, but I should have included this But Revelation 21 24

27:51

We have the manuscript we have that single manuscript and I Remember, you know for years.

27:59

I was in error I said it was a Latin manuscript and had to extract the Greek from it No, it's a

28:04

Greek manuscript and I had to extract Greek from it It's a 28 17

28:10

I think 28 14, I think is the Paul one and it is a commentary on the

28:19

Revelation by Andreas of Caesarea and What they had to do is had to extract the biblical text from the commentary, which it because if you look at the page, it's just All sort of mishmash together and this resulted in a number of errors

28:39

Transcriptional errors and things like that, but in Revelation 21 24 What happened there is part of Andreas of Caesarea's commentary

28:53

Was mistakenly copied as if it was a part of the Greek text of Revelation which means that No, no

29:04

Christian Until 1516 when the Rasmus's first edition the

29:09

Greek New Testament had ever seen the reading of Revelation 21 24 because it contains the words of Andreas of Caesarea which were written about 600 years after the birth of Christ and I I thought

29:28

Someone's alarms going off out there You hear all sorts of things in our reports. Um, but uh

29:34

I thought if anything would cause someone to go, you know, but one thing that we will agree on is

29:46

That we want only what was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God and so Andreas of Caesarea was and I didn't bring this up.

29:58

I should have was really into allegorical interpretation, which

30:04

Doug's not gonna like he was anti chiliastic, which means or some people's like chiliastic

30:12

Against the concept of a millennium, which I also doubt he would like So, I don't think he'd really be a big fan of Andreas of Caesarea's theology and biblical interpretation

30:26

But no matter what You just have to go. Yep That wasn't there for 1 ,500 year well, okay, let's say 1 ,400 years if you want to make

30:37

Revelation written late that wasn't there no Christian had ever seen it and It comes from an uninspired human author 600 years after the birth of Christ we don't want that in our

30:50

Bible We've you've we've got to be able to agree on something like that. Just got to Nope Nope He wouldn't nope, he wouldn't go there

31:06

And I don't know if it was when I pressed him on that one or the Ephesians 3 9 1 which is a translational issue

31:12

Whom they slew and hung on a tree as if they killed Jesus and then hung him on a tree

31:18

But at some point during the cross -examination Doug just sort of stalled

31:25

There was dead air and Everybody in the room could feel it

31:32

And he sort of put his head down a little bit and then he looked up and he sort of had a little Grin on his face and he said

31:39

I Can see how you'd come to that conclusion or how you'd think that way or something like that.

31:45

He didn't have answers For the facts he didn't you know,

31:51

I showed him acts 530 now, this is it this is fascinating Before that debate

32:00

Um, someone had linked me to an article that Jeff riddle the

32:07

Jeff riddle is a tear only guy teaches for IRB s and Jeff riddle had posted a

32:19

Defense of the King James rendering of acts 530 Which only proves

32:27

Mark Ward is right? TR only us our King James only us Scratch him and they'll bleed the

32:34

King James It's just a it's just an extra layer. They're they're not really tear only as their

32:39

King James only It was it was I was stunned and actually I think

32:46

Yeah. All right. Here we go This is playing off of YouTube, so hopefully it won't crash us or anything here but let's listen to just a little bit of the

33:00

Cross -examination here from the From the debate

33:09

For the next 15 minutes, dr. White will be asking questions of dr. Levett.

33:14

So let me restate some things The debaters do need an opportunity to frame their questions, but we need to do it concisely

33:20

But it's not it's not wrong for a debater to frame their question But if if we have very long questions,

33:26

I am going to interrupt if we can't set a question in less than a minute That's probably too long. So dr.

33:31

White you will have 15 minutes to question. Dr. Levett again, dr. White you own the time and audience, it's not inappropriate to interrupt if the questioner feels that he needs to re -ask his question or you know to get an answer so These gentlemen are doing very well.

33:45

This is how debates happen. So dr. White 15 minutes in Revelation 21 24 the phrase tone sozo men own is

33:54

Found in the textus receptus and is translated of them which are saved in the

33:59

King James Version of the Bible We possess the manuscript from which this was derived number 28 14

34:07

Which was Andreas accessory as commentary on Revelation We now know that that phrase was

34:14

Andreas's Commentary it is not found in any Greek manuscript. It's ever been found and Yet it's in the

34:21

King James Version of the Bible Does the King James need to be edited at that point to remove?

34:27

Andreas accessory is commentary from the scripture. I Would never change the

34:33

King James Bible. I Don't necessarily use the word Perfect.

34:39

I use the word 99 % pure most exact without provable error

34:48

I Don't think that we might not in the future discover some New Greek manuscripts that we can then analyze or audit at that time.

34:59

I Don't think I think that the devil and man's failure is going to continue as as I'm trying to show today

35:05

There's two streams of thought one that is cavalier and the the picking at the minutiae

35:11

I think this is a picking of minutiae. There were 56 translators that knew Greek better than me for sure and That would have considered that that Argued with each other there was different schools of thought amongst themselves

35:25

And they would have not let each other had let's any side you have do you have any evidence whatsoever that the

35:31

King James translators? were aware that The printed text from which they were translating were based upon a single manuscript from Andreas assess

35:41

Aria And that his words had been inadvertently and mistakenly Inserted into the text you have any evidence they ever discussed it.

35:49

I Don't have any evidence that they discussed it There's a lot of things that they would have discussed that would not have that would not have shown up anywhere

35:55

Okay, so we we come back to the end and I really think this is a fundamental issue

36:01

Because it is we have the manuscript It's available online.

36:07

Anybody can go look at if they want to there is no manuscript prior to Erasmus prior to 1516 that contains the reading that's in the

36:19

King James version of the Bible How how can you look at that data and go but it's still perfect I didn't say it was perfect.

36:33

I said there was no there was no provable error You're saying that we can't see what they said about it or what they known about it

36:40

But that doesn't mean that there's provable error. I can't I can't produce their conversation, but neither can you but okay?

36:46

They weren't using manuscripts. They were using printed texts that did not give them the background information

36:53

The background information is known to us today This phrase is not in any

36:59

Byzantine Can you show me this phrase in any Byzantine manuscript produced in the history of the Christian Church?

37:05

I cannot okay I I cannot do that. Obviously today. I don't have the you know breaks

37:12

Greek expertise or a bunch of Greek texts here But I do know that 56 guys That were from different schools of thought set up over seven years and in massive

37:23

Redefining of each other's mistakes or Translations would not have let each other

37:32

Fail in one respect or get past something by in one respect and so so you're saying they were already a hundred years removed from Erasmus so they couldn't necessarily talk to him, but they also had

37:44

Stephanus they also had Beza they they also had others that they they talked to about so and it's kind of a it's kind of A moot point to ask me if I can produce that Because well you are making an assertion.

37:57

Yeah that they would have known about this There is no evidence that they knew about this. Can you show us?

38:03

That the majority text or the Byzantine text which you have referenced more than once Contained the reading that is in the

38:11

King James Bible and if the majority and Byzantine texts are unanimous in correcting the reading in the

38:19

King James Will you actually subject the Byzantine and majority?

38:25

Traditions to the translation in English of the King James Version of the Bible. I think updates and edits done tried

38:34

The King James Bible Research Council takes all comers and Every time we've said no, I'll give you this.

38:40

I think we can do another 21st century audit. I think that would be fair but I think if we're going to do another 21st century audit of say the

38:50

Byzantine text or the King James Bible or The way that they come together and analyze and percentages.

38:55

We need to do the same thing with some something on your side of the table where it comes to Modern English texts and Okay, you can watch the whole thing.

39:06

I'll try to remember to link to it when I write up the blog article for for this this program, but there there was

39:20

The the King James is perfect Because it doesn't matter how clear the evidence is.

39:28

I Don't know what he thinks an audit would be he may get in trouble for that I think that sounds like an editing, but I don't but The King James is perfect in text and the

39:40

King James is perfect in translation And in fact, if I recall correctly at one point

39:46

I asked him if the I did ask him if the LSB's rendering of Acts 530 whom whom they murdered

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Whom they murdered by hanging on a tree something along those lines is that demonic and Because it's different the

40:05

King James. He said yes, it's divine So, how do you avoid?

40:11

Second inspiration ism you can't if you're saying the text is perfect despite the clear errors and The translation is perfect despite the clear errors.

40:23

Then that means it was inspired between 1604 and 1611 And he can sit there and say well, they're all these great scholars and I asked him

40:32

Has knowledge of the Greek language did it end in 1611 to the translators claim that it ended in 1611?

40:39

You'd have to believe that to hold this position I Think it was really clear

40:47

And that's and because it was more Irenic, I mean at least during the cross -ex at least when

40:53

I was asking questions I wasn't being mean I wasn't being aggressive, but I was very pointed and dogged

41:01

And everybody sees that that's I do cross -examination. That's what I did so That's why

41:09

I think it's gonna be really really useful for a long time for anybody who's hearing this stuff

41:15

To go. Oh, wow They don't really have answers to these these issues and he tried to make the argument

41:23

Well, I've had people use your book against the Bible and I'm like, okay. Yeah people misuse all sorts of things

41:30

Because my books not against the Bible. It's against King James only ism. But what does it say at the beginning of my book?

41:36

Just a few pages in its fabric all correctly is in the original edition. It's on a left -hand page

41:43

It's sort of typeset in larger larger font The King James Bible alone

41:50

Equals the Word of God alone that's King James only ism and You can reject recommend you can reject rippling er, you can say we're different than da

42:03

Wade or whoever It doesn't matter if that's your starting point.

42:10

You're not only a King James only us But you're gonna spin in circles for your entire life

42:16

Because you have assumed the conclusion of your argument and you're going to assume it from the start and that Means there is no rational defense of your position there.

42:26

There just isn't you can't you can't go there You can't can't accomplish it. So I think that'll be very very useful to folks

42:35

You know, no, he's he's not nearly a rich said he sounded a bit like Sam Gip to me

42:42

And by the way, I can tell you now I'm not gonna ruin the surprise, but I've seen some pictures while the cats away the mouse mice's

42:50

Mises have been playing and I am thinking

42:57

That rich is getting ready. I'm thinking we may have a second Program, you know apologia has all sorts of programs got apology radio and sheologians and cultish and and You know how many coming out of apology in studios all sorts of stuff like that So maybe pretty soon.

43:17

There's gonna be two coming from the dividing line including the rich pierce show because the the the background from where he sits has been completely filled in and the walls no longer just a white plain old wall and and I have a feeling that there are some lights

43:36

Probably that have all sudden appeared that and we got lots of extra lights lots and lots of extra lights and So I just I just got this feeling that you might be hearing a little bit more from from rich Pierce now

43:54

I you know, I never run what I'm gonna say by rich and I'm not gonna ask him to run everything by me

44:02

So we may not agree on everything You know the guys, you know

44:09

Summer enjoy don't run their scripts past anybody at apologia before they do a program so Could be interesting could be interesting.

44:19

So yeah, well, we'll see what's going to come of that but We'll see when we get home

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I get home on Thursday, and I'm not sure Whether that's gonna be a program or on Friday or just just what cuz

44:33

Reform cons the weekend after that you can still get your tickets. You can still come to Tucson still be with us as we really delve into some important topics this not this week, but the week week after this and Looking forward to seeing lots of folks there that I haven't seen for a while.

44:53

All right, so Only have 15 minutes left here

44:59

That was Friday or was that Saturday night? Yeah.

45:07

Thanks. Um Friday or Saturday night. I forget which one was so Thursday this past past Thursday In Calhoun, Louisiana, I Had a horrible time driving from Livingston box.

45:25

I was in Baton Rouge up to Calhoun It's just Louisiana, that's the roads

45:34

I Tried to take a shortcut. Well both

45:39

Google and Garmin told me to and I foolishly Did so ended up on a two -lane road

45:46

They tap a fatal accident Ahead of me sat there forever in a day

45:53

Took hours and hours and hours longer than it should have but anyway, I eventually get there and I Have I said that Mr.

46:07

Richardson and I he knows but my position is I Listened to two debates that he did on Romans 9 both

46:14

Matt slick and one with a turret and fan then these were all done online, of course and I focused primarily on the turrets and fan one because after the opening presentations of The Matt slick one started getting snippy and You can't really tell as much from that kind of thing and I wanted to try to avoid that Of course the same time we even said this during the debate turrets and fan is just too nice He speaks too slowly and is too nice and and things like that So he knew

46:51

I wasn't gonna be that nice as turrets and fan was But obviously turrets and fan and I are coming from pretty much the exact same spot when it comes to Romans 9 and so we pretty much knew where things were gonna go and So I had listened to his presentation and what he does is he reads

47:16

He reads out of the text He keeps saying there's nothing that affirms

47:21

Calvinism nothing that firms cut so he he reads it in a very surface level way but he also doesn't give you a

47:31

Consistent Exegesis of the text that is supportive of his position. He really tries his best to keep his full

47:41

Lord position as Minimally expressed as possible You know, he's

47:49

Church of Christ and Given some of the things he said about you know, every person when they're born as libertarian free will

47:57

It sounds like he's pretty much a Pelagian When he says things like well, you're justified by faith.

48:04

I Wanted to dig into this, but I felt like it would Destroy the debate. I I felt

48:10

I'm just let's put it back up here. Sorry. I felt Once I made the connection

48:17

Between the language of the Golden Chain and especially calling a

48:24

Colossal is used in the Golden Chain those whom he predestined he called

48:32

Those whom he called he justified now he struggled Because it's very plain that for Paul All those for known are predestined all and and he even said for known means for loved

48:48

I agree But that's loved before we came into existence that it has if it's loved then it's personal it's not just some general thing predestined called

49:02

Justified glorified now, he believes you can be justified and not glorified. And so he believes you can be called but not justified

49:10

But that destroys the Golden Chain and that's not Paul's point It's whoever those whom he did this he did this those whom he did this he did this it's the language is very straightforward and Then I made the connection to the calling in Romans 9 those whom he called

49:33

Not from among Jews only but from Gentiles as well. So Paul's the one using the same terminology

49:40

Paul's the one making the connection and His whole argument is oh, this isn't soteriological here in Romans 9

49:47

But I started in Romans 8 and he admitted. Yes. This is soteriological He doesn't deal with the consistency of the text, but he agrees is soteriological.

49:57

So if I can Put a nail down here in Romans 8 and here it is in Romans 9

50:04

These are now connected his position collapses, it's it's done and I didn't want to risk

50:16

Obscuring that by Getting off into the weeds. He kept saying well, you know if you want to talk about Romans 8 look

50:24

Romans 8 is like You know four sentences Separated from Romans 9 something like that getting a where you are in Romans 8, so it's not a matter of This is the context the context is soteriological this is what prompts the question the

50:43

Jewish question in Romans 9 and He's continuing that it's there's there's a consistency there that his position does not possess partly because he is so afraid of The reformed understanding that he wants to read all of that out empty that out of the text you can't do it

51:03

The the vessels prepared for destruction the vessels of mercy prepared for glory

51:10

Whom he called what? Those to me called he justified those who me justified to glorify

51:19

You have to tear Paul apart To Accomplish what you want to do here and So I had a choice to make

51:29

I could have pressed him on baptism I could have forced him to you know, because when he when he talks about even justified by faith, he means by the faith and That's how you kick the door open to bring in obedience baptism stuff like that I could have gone there a lot of people would have but I Wanted someone to be able to look at that debate and Go, hey, wait a minute

51:59

This side because the debate with flowers didn't get into any of that because he didn't get in there that he wasn't

52:06

He didn't he didn't touch the text hardly at all He wanted to debate

52:12

Told total inability and that kind of stuff and And What we've learned from two debates of latent flowers is that's all he's ever gonna debate it doesn't matter what the text is

52:23

We could we could take what was it second Chronicles? What is a 2316?

52:29

I keep forgetting the number I used to have it right right the you know To a power bar for the causeway and to it the power bar

52:37

We could we could debate that text and latent flowers would turn into a discussion of total gravity

52:43

He really would so we didn't get into the intimate textual connection between Romans 8 and Romans 9

52:57

And stuff like that in that debate. So I wanted this one to be one where that would be gotten into and gotten into deeply enough to answer some of the questions and to refute some of the

53:13

Shallow ways that people have of trying to get around what Romans 9 is actually seeking to say and so I Really thought that in the in the cross -examination

53:29

Not only did that become clear again, but when we did start getting off of it, it was more him than me

53:37

Raising those particular issues And And I was one that kept saying well, no, we don't have to jump off into that What I'm trying to say is here in Romans 9

53:51

Here's the connection here. Here's the textual connection here you know and He wants to go to the end of Romans chapter 9 say see there's there's where faith is.

54:00

Well, you know if Faith was the determining issue You'd think

54:06

Paul would have mentioned it in the key texts but but faith is always coming after what

54:13

God has done and Faith is man's response to what God has done

54:19

But in the golden chain those whom he calls That's the effectual call

54:25

He justifies. How are we justified by faith not by the faith? but by faith the act of faith

54:33

So he's already established that in Romans 3 and 4 that's not a question But in Romans 8, this is what

54:40

God does and what God does Results in man's response to God and It's not well

54:51

God tries but man's response determines whether God will be successful. No those whom he calls

55:00

Spirit of God comes raises to spiritual life and grants you the gifts of faith and repentance and You're going to believe you're now made you've been renewed in the image of him who created you and So you are going to believe

55:20

There's where faith comes in but the result what God is it? And that's why Romans 8 can be God does this

55:25

God does this God does this God does this God does this and he? succeeds because he's God I that's just that's the glorious truth of This text of Scripture and I didn't want that to get end up getting all

55:48

Covered over in other stuff and So I didn't choose to go those directions now

55:54

I'm not gonna listen to what Layton flowers or or Warren McGrew have to say it's irrelevant to me

56:00

Really really really is I had been told that the comment section on the

56:07

YouTube feed was nuts I Was told that Sam Shimon got involved with one of them.

56:15

I may be bold. I don't know and that McGrew had been involved and You know that that that in and of itself is more than enough to turn the comments off not even not even bother

56:32

That that's one of the cesspool areas of of YouTube So anyways,

56:39

I thought the debate was really useful and and so I'm looking forward to Two more debates in the future.

56:48

We're at 197 and I Would love to find somebody up in Colorado.

56:54

I would love to find somebody up in Colorado to defend what the legislature is doing

57:00

I really really would I That's the next trip is at the end of June Let's let's man.

57:09

Let's make it happen Saints in Colorado. Do you do you know somebody up there? Who's actually?

57:15

you know Promoting this type of stuff and calls himself a Christian and I'll take anybody let's do it.

57:22

Let's make it happen. I Would love to take that topic on When I'm up there in Colorado in July into early

57:32

August that would be Absolutely. I was just a schnitz. I'll fight one other thing before we wrap up here only have a minute or two, but right now

57:46

There is a food fight absolute foul -mouthed food fight going on in social media

57:56

And I'm just sitting back popping the popcorn

58:01

I'll be honest with you normally I'd be oh, this is sad that the look When Sam Schumann and Jay Dyer go at it

58:10

When Sam Schumann is calling Jay Dyer gay liar, and that's the nicest thing. He's saying you wouldn't believe the other stuff

58:17

He was I mean Wow Just vile vile vile vile stuff and You know, we saw what

58:25

Jay Dyer said to me and his immaturity and his willingness to tell you know Call me a metrosexual and that I have a lisp and gay list, but I'll so he deserves absolutely no

58:40

Quarter here He's just gonna get what he what he gives to others but to see

58:47

Sam Schumann going after Orthodox guys and Catholic guys and I'm just I'm just sitting back going

58:57

Should I have warned them and then I go no No Did I see it coming?

59:04

Yes, of course. I did a Sam Schumann will never submit to anyone other than Sam Schumann That doesn't work.

59:11

Well when you got a Pope That doesn't work. Well when you've got an infallible church with all sorts of different, you know multiple heads on the infallible jerk

59:20

And that doesn't that does not work well at all and so the the nuclear exchange is going on right now

59:30

Completely predictable but astonishing anyways, because it just tells you a lot about the level of stuff that gets thrown around on the internet, it's

59:44

It's pretty well, so anyways once again Sincere thanks to all of you who make this possible for me to be here in this wonderful Studio, which happens to be the couch in the back of the

59:58

RV with our really cool backgrounds and lights and camera and everything else that we put in here that you made available to us through your support and This is how by the way, this is how

01:00:14

I'm going to reform con next week to Taking the RV down there So I can sleep better than I would in a hotel

01:00:23

That's just that's just all there is to and that's better for my health too. There's no No, no two ways about that and the old ticker doing it's really weird ticker stuff these days.

01:00:32

So anyways, but if you want to support us at Travel fund at a omen org or just at a omen org we we very much appreciate it and Want to keep doing these debates and discussing these issues and giving you

01:00:50

Solid biblical reasons for the hope that is within you and who knows what will be coming in the future

01:00:57

From the rich cave. I don't know what it's gonna get called. I don't I have no idea but Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be great it's gonna be cool

01:01:06

I think he probably wishes I went away more often Yes, I just go away and when you come back maybe all your books will be gone and I'll be in charge of everything so That's possibility too.

01:01:19

You never know Thing stranger things have happened. They really have so anyway, um,

01:01:25

I'm gonna I don't know when we're gonna get back together. I'll Try Wednesday You know, we'll just have to see well, we'll let you know and and we'll just have to see and We'll go from there.