#74 Popular Verses—Explained the Way They Were Meant to Be Understood + Dr. Jeannine Brown

I don't mean this egregiously, but it's almost like a tarot reading of, like, what does God have for me today?

The Bible was not written to us, but it can be written for us. So how do

I decipher between, like, okay, these are the characteristics of God that are being revealed to me versus God's personal message for me?

It's not just the Bible, it's me and the Bible, and I have to reckon with me in that mix.

Eisegesis versus exegesis, in simple terms, Dr. Brown, what do these mean? If you're going to be guided by something,

I think you want to take it more seriously. Hello, hello.

Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the

Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding

God easier. These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion.

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Thank you so much for listening. Now, let's get to the show. Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. I'm your host,

Cassian Bellino. I have a question for you that you'll probably, if you're listening to this podcast, will answer the question yes, is do you have, like, a

Bible verse tattooed on your body? Or maybe, like, I don't know, your favorite coffee mug has, you know, your confirmation verse, like mine,

Jeremiah 29 11. And then you looked into it because now you're studying your Bible more thoroughly, and it actually means something completely different.

Or maybe this is news to you, and it might actually mean something different than what you were previously knowing.

You know, maybe, oh my gosh, it's a shocker. God doesn't have a promised plan for your life. That's a different meaning there.

What if the way that we read the Bible actually says more about us, our culture, our assumptions, than it does about God?

Today, we're going to understand how we are reading the word and how we should read the word, the way that he intended us to.

And don't worry, we have an expert here that's going to hold our hands as we understand what we've been taught in church, the common understandings that we all hold.

And now, what's the more correct way to move forward in those? I have Dr. Jeanine Brown. I'm so excited to have you on the show today.

Thank you so much. Just a little bit about your credibility and your ability to speak on this topic so that we can trust everything you tell us that we're going forward in truth.

You are a professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary. You've taught there for 25 years, and you have a

PhD in New Testament from Luther Seminary, and your scholarship is Greek, hermeneutics, biblical interpretation.

You've also authored a few things, a couple commentaries, like Scripture as Communication, the Gospel as Stories.

I've never been more excited about this topic as a whole. I mean, we were talking about this before we jumped on. Like, this is what

I wanted this podcast to be about, was I've been in church my whole life, and I thought

I got it. But there's so many contextual and contextual timeline and just surrounding background that I need to properly understand the word.

And I'm so excited you're here to provide it. Welcome to the show. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me on. So how did you, like, of all the things you could study in the

Bible, why exegesis versus eisegesis? Yeah, so the topic, the broad topic that I often say

I study is hermeneutics, which is this long term, which means interpretation. How do we understand the task of interpretation?

How do we interpret kind of all the questions that swirl around that? I love that area of study.

I think it really came out of my own seminary training. I studied at Bethel Seminary, just like I teach now at Bethel Seminary.

It's my alma mater. And a key course for me was that course, that foundational biblical studies course that you walk into and suddenly made aware not just of the various authors of Scripture that God used and inspired,

Matthew, Paul, Jeremiah, but also my own background that comes into play.

I was asked to become more aware of who I am as I interpret. And that was a gift to me. And so I keep on giving that gift to my students, whether they want it at the beginning of the class or not.

When I teach hermeneutics, we really walk through a process of let's study the Bible really carefully, really closely, using really good tools.

And then let's also study ourselves. Let's think about how much we add or shape what we're reading.

If we become more aware of that, we're only going to help this whole project of studying the Bible more faithfully, more carefully, more thoroughly.

That's amazing. I wish that more churches had that aspect to it, because I think that there's almost this expectation when you walk in church that they give a verse and they're like, felt good, right?

And you're like, what felt good? What's going on? And you, as like this Christian, feel this pressure to be like,

I don't understand it because no one's explained it to me. Yeah. And you just, even though you say that, that here's a verse, you know, we take, we've been told, we've been shown that we can just take any verse and understand on its own terms when it's part of a larger thing, right?

So what really jazzes me is studying whole books at a time, reading fulls.

Now, Jeremiah, that's a really long project, right? But, you know, and Matthew, but, you know, I had my students last night in class reading

Habakkuk, three chapters, and they started the class by just reading through. I gave them a, you know, kind of a hard copy, two page, stuffed it all one page, two pages, and we read through it.

And then at the end of the night, we all read through it again. So this idea of listening to scripture in its context, like you said, so important.

When you put it in context, like, for example, within your classes, is the approach to put it in context within original translation or within historical context, or like, how do you put it in context correctly?

Yeah, you know, I grew up thinking, and this is not a bad impulse,

I just want to say that from the start, but thinking that, you know, that I read the text and it's directly for me. You know, and so the original context, you know, when

Paul's reading to the Corinthians. That's what's taught. And I think we want to, rightly so, think and believe that scripture is meaningful to us.

And it is, I completely believe that. I have not moved away from that one inch. But how

I understand that to be the case, I now understand that to be sort of a more thoughtful process of thinking about how the

Bible was not written to us, but it can be written for us. You know, that is an often said little prepositional change, right?

Two, not four. So not two, but four in the end, yes. But that means I need to pay attention to the original audience for whom it was written, to whom it was written, so that we can hear kind of the whole message in that original context and then take that and say, well, what does that do for me?

Or what does that say to me? What is God speaking here for me? And I find that has been a really transformative piece for my own

Bible. So if you want to say devotional reading, this has really become something where I need to kind of grapple with the whole in that first context.

That doesn't mean I always have to be doing deep Bible study every time I come to the Bible when I want to read.

But I want to read more than just a verse. Very rarely will I get a Bible to read a verse. I will usually read a whole psalm or a whole book or, you know, part of a larger book, right?

You know, if you're reading math, you might read the first four chapters and then read five through seven. And then kind of keep on moving.

But I encourage people to read more than less. And I make my students do papers on bigger sections of scripture.

Because I think there's something valuable about hearing that whole. And I think that helps solve a lot of conundrums.

Like, I don't know what this means. Well, back up. Move forward. Go, oh, well, it's a lot clearer in context, right?

We would never do this with a novel that we're reading. We'd never say, hey, I'm going to read. I'm going to start with chapter three, paragraph five in my novel.

What is that going to do for me? I'm not going to know what's going on. I'm going to be lost. So we read from beginning to end.

And we might read our favorite book a number of times. Coming back to scripture, keep on reading. But don't necessarily stop after a couple verses.

That's kind of my first advice to anybody reading the Bible. That's amazing.

And I love the way that you explain that. I think maybe some people that I talk to or DM me, they're like,

I just started reading the Bible. Where should I start? And I feel like as a Christian, like the

Sunday school Christian is what I like to call them, that kind of that person that goes on Sundays, maybe went to Bible study camp, but never really went further in their study.

They think, I'm going to open the Bible, and that's the message that God has for me today. And then you have maybe

Jesus Calling, and you have those daily devotionals. It's almost like you're, I don't mean this egregiously, but it's almost like a tarot reading of like, what does

God have for me today? Okay, I opened to this page. So this is what he has for me. And kind of what we said, it's written to us, not for us.

For that early Christian, that's like, well, I'm just trying to connect with God. So how do

I decipher between like, okay, these are the characteristics of God that are being revealed to me versus God's personal message for me.

Yeah. And I think that it's really helpful to frame, I mean, Christian theologians through the years. This is

God's revelation. So God is revealing, and God reveals who

God is, and also who we are to be. There are certainly ethical messages throughout scripture.

But both of those things, if we think about not just me personally, but for the church, for Christians in our day, for Christians of all time, what is

God revealing that's really important? What was so important that all these different books, all these different kinds of writing narrative, and there are letters, and there's kind of history, and there's all sorts of things, poems.

What did God want to reveal? So I think asking that question of what do we learn about the true

God from reading this amazing compilation of books? It's not just one book. It's 66 different books that are written to different initial audiences, but have been brought together because they are scripture for us.

They are to guide us. And I think any time you say this book is to guide me, not just I'm interested in it, it's a fun topic,

I'm going to read about it, but if it's going to guide me, then I want to take it very seriously.

Right? If we're going to take something as a guide, like if we get in, we have a new car, and there are a few things we haven't read the manual yet, and so every time

I get in the car, I have to adjust my seat. This could do it automatically for me. These new cars are quite amazing.

But in any kind of manual you're reading, you want to actually know what it's saying, right? Or like a recipe for making dinner, you want to follow it really closely.

You don't want to just say, oh, I think I hear this in the recipe today, and I'll try that. And then you have a fire on the stove and whatever it is.

So if you're going to be guided by something, I think you want to take it more seriously.

So you're going to say, okay, who is it written to first, and how would I kind of listen to that message as it comes to me today?

So kind of like use it as almost a blueprint or like a recipe or a manual to then how we approach

God personally off the pages. Yeah, and I don't think the Bible is sort of a manual about God.

I mean, that's kind of a crass way to think about this amazing book, right, full of wonderful literary moments and powerful theological truths.

But there is a sense if we're going to be guided by it, it's something we should not just say, I'll do my own version of study.

You know what I mean? And we'll all find our kind of our ways of reading and studying. But I think we kind of know when to go, well, that didn't really get me any closer to what

Paul was talking about. And I really want to know what Paul was talking about, because I believe God inspired Paul. And what

Paul says is what God inspired, that these aren't two separate things. Like I can hear from God apart from Paul. That's not my hermeneutic.

That's not how I understand. Different people have different views on all these things. But if I'm going to hear from the human authors that God inspired, that's going to get me closer to what

God was meaning, God intending through revealing things to them that they wrote down.

This book of words, that's so amazing. The Bible is this book that says things. And these were people that were inspired to say them.

So I want to know what Paul meant, right? Because I think that gets me to what God meant. Yeah. So, yeah,

I mean, those are big hermeneutical questions, but that's the stuff I love to study. And I find it very practical.

So I don't mind if we get practical soon in our conversation. We are definitely going to get into it.

But before we do, I think there's like a little bit of ground rules in understanding what we're about to do, that there's a difference between how

I go into church on Sundays, understand it, and how you understand verses. And that's eisegesis versus exegesis.

And if you follow me on Instagram, I would do like about, like I was posting all about it.

And people were like, what are these words? So in simple terms, Dr. Brown, what do these mean?

Yeah. And they're based on Greek terms. Eise, so sort of exegesis, which is what people do when they study the

Bible kind of, if you go to a seminary or Bible college, you'll take a course on exegetical method or exegesis.

And that means to draw out. So what it means to learn and what it was written, what was intended in the writing of a biblical book.

So to draw out the meaning is the kind of simple way of thinking about it. Eisegesis is about importing in meaning, you know, and we do that sometimes we're like, oh,

I think it means this. And nobody else in the world has thought that. I always think that's a scary thought. When you've thought something nobody else has ever discovered in the

Bible. I'm like, well, double check that thought. So exegesis is kind of important. And people, I don't do that intentionally.

I don't intentionally import meaning into the text. I don't want to do that. I don't think anybody really does, but it's tricky because we bring ourselves to the reading process.

It's not just the Bible. It's me and the Bible. And I have to reckon with me in that mix.

So like I like to say, I just do exegesis. I know sometimes I'm not reading correctly and I'm bringing in maybe a cultural assumption, a personal assumption, that's flavoring and coloring what the output is, you know, kind of whether a sermon or a teaching or even just my own devotional reading.

So even though we can say, I want to do exegesis, drawing out instead of eisegesis, putting in what wasn't there, what wasn't meant, it's a little more complicated because we have to, we can't always see what we bring.

So one of the things that I really invite people to do is to become more aware of what you're bringing as much as you can.

And you can do that by reading with other people. And somebody goes, I think it means this. And you go, oh, I've never thought of that.

Well, wrestle with that, right? Wrestle with, oh, am I bringing something here that I wasn't aware of?

I also say we can't, we're not aware of our assumptions. So we have to kind of pry them away from our, if we're close to the chest on what we believe, pry it away a little bit so we can kind of, oh, oh, that's what

I think it means. But maybe that's some of me mixed with the text. So it's a lifelong process for me.

And I think for anybody I've met to figure out what it means to read more faithfully, because I want to do that.

And it's not that I was feeling like I wanted to be unfaithful before. And it's not like I'm, you know, have completely unfaithfully reading the text all the time.

It's just that the desire to do that pushes me to say, what am I bringing? How can

I just set it aside? It can't be a clean slate, but if you reckon with it, if you think about it and wonder about it and go, oh.

So can I give you an example? Of course. So Matthew 18, the disciples come to Jesus and they say, who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

I always think you can tell if a question is a good one because the person doesn't answer it directly if it's not a very good question.

So the disciples ask the question and Jesus doesn't answer their question. He says, he calls a child in their midst.

And he says, unless you become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hmm. That's not what they asked, right? They asked who's greatest. They weren't worried about entry. They're following the 12, they're following them.

So he answers a different question. And then he says this, therefore, whoever humbles themselves, like this child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Okay. Stop there. Humble, humble yourself, child. We are going to bring what we think about children into that.

Okay. What is it about a child? I've heard many sermons on this topic and I've heard all sorts of things about children and what we should emulate.

And it might be that in our cultural context where we really do value children deeply, and we like to emulate their qualities, they're innocent.

They're dependent. They're vulnerable. You know, we could list them off, right? By the way, humble wouldn't be one of those things

I list about children. I have four grandbabies and none of them are humble. The goal of their parents are that they would be humble by the time they leave the house at 18.

In other words, they are self -centered. This is their developmental stage. I don't, I'm not offended by them. I don't reprimand them for being where they are developmentally, but we do try to work to help them see another person's perspective to say,

I'm not the most important person in the room. I was just with my granddaughter. She thought she was the most important person in the room.

And that's okay. And I'm happy to be the grandma who says, sure, but her parents are trying to get her to be less self -centered, more humble.

So what do we do with this verse? We bring a lot of stuff. So we think that children are innocent.

In the first century Greco -Roman world, children were not the epitome of ethical ideal.

And they were often considered to be less than trustworthy because they didn't have the full measure of logos rationality.

So they're not rational. So they, you don't really trust their perspective. You have a very different view of children in the ancient world, in the modern world.

So when we read this, we go, Oh, be humble like a child. And we mean have this internal quality of deferring to the other.

I just think you haven't been around children enough, you know, but, so that's why a lot of the sermons go sideways. Cause you have to do something different.

Be innocent like a child. Well, that's a great thing. Sure. But I don't think that's what Jesus said. I love the NIV translation here.

I'm on the NIV translation team. So this one's good for us. It happened before I was on the team. It doesn't matter.

But anyway, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is greatest in the kingdom because in the ancient world, children have little or no status.

They'll have status upon adulthood, depending on their family status, wealth, all these kinds of things, but they are not people with status.

So they're an example of somebody who, by their very position in society isn't great.

So Jesus does this lovely thing. Who gets to be greatest? Well, first, you know, unless you become like a child, you'll not enter the kingdom.

And then he says, and if you want to have the highest position, take the lowest position.

Well, that makes no sense. Oh, exactly. That that's the conundrum or the paradox of the kingdom that you, you know, go low and then

God will exalt you. Right. We hear those themes all the way across scripture generally, not just the

New Testament. So I love that passage because we do, we bring in these views of children and I like that we value children.

I like that we care for them and we, you know, don't make them work in factories for 12 hours. You know, these things that happened in the last 150 years that have been good for children.

We but we can't, we've got to say, okay, but in the ancient world, was that the way they viewed children?

How did they view children? Absolutely. And I think what I love is that you brought in translations that I would not have received on the surface level of if I read that verse it's okay.

You have to become like children. Okay. So I have to be immature. You need me to be silly in church.

Yeah. So you can start to spin off these responsibilities. Yeah, of course. And now that the original word is lowly that makes, and that back then children had no status.

Like I love my, I would go to war for my nephew. I would not call him lowly, but that does make sense in this context of humble ourselves in that way.

So it's like that translation. Right. Yeah. Because humble can be an internal quality and it can be an external state.

So it can be either of those. And this was why translations might differ here. I just think the NIV nails it because I think that's what

Jesus is talking about. Having studied a lot of commentators on Matthew who do highlight that kind of lowly positional piece.

So can, so this is why, why translation is so fascinating because you know, you can see in two different translations, two different interpretive possibilities, which is why

I always encourage people to use two translations when they're working. When they wouldn't really want to study the Bible used to do translations because they'll show you differences that then you go,

Oh, I think it's this one. Why do you think it's that one? Is it that that's when you're used to that's the lens you bring.

That's your point of reference. Okay. But if you're using two different translations, how do you know which one to go with?

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Thank you so much. Now back to the show. Yeah, that's a great question. So I will say two translations and then have a study

Bible, a commentary that's accessible that is trying to get at the, that author's meaning.

So what we call an exegetical commentary. So it does exegesis. And there are a lot of those out there.

Most of the people in my field of new Testament studies, you know, when they write commentaries that are meant to be exegetical and they might also have some really nice devotional or application reflection points to them as well, but they're trying to do first exegetical work to offer to people that kind of talk about anybody worth their salt on a contested passage.

We'll talk about both sides and give you reasons for this or that, and then tell you where they go, you know, which one they go with.

So commentaries are very helpful when they can show you. So you go to a comp, you go to two translations, you see different things.

You go to a commentary on that verse and they hopefully will tell you what are the issues there.

What do you use for commentary? Do you use like a software or a book? Like I use logos.

Yeah. Yeah. And you can get quite a few, and I would suggest buying some commentaries that are not just public domain.

So, you know, 300 years old, 200 years old, you know, they'll give you a lot of freebies. Matthew Henry, you know, lived a long time ago.

Everybody uses commentary because it's free. Buy a commentary. If you're studying a book, you're studying a book like Matthew or Philippians, buy a commentary.

That's it. Like I love like the Tyndale commentary series is short, but it's exegetical.

It has a little theology section too. So it kind of gives you a little bit of everything. Let's see, what are some of the other ones that I would recommend off the top of my head?

You know, I wrote the Matthew commentary and the teach the texts series, teach the text. And that's a nice accessible commentary series, not just in Matthew, any of the books that are out there.

Yeah. And then the story of God commentary series does a nice job of having an exegetical part.

And then, you know, how does this fit in the story of God's overarching story and how should we think about our own devotional life in relationship to the passage?

So story of God series is nice. Tyndale commentary series teach the text, but there are a number more, but I think purchase a commentary.

When I first commentary I ever, I was given back in my college days was on Philippians and that became a, such a well -loved letter that I actually wrote the commentary on Philippians in that series.

40 years later or so. Oh, after I read it, it was written a little before that. It was so fun.

Tyndale series, Philippians and Ralph Martin, I had his little commentary and I scoured through that thing because I was doing a

Bible study for other college students on Philippians. And it was just this treasure.

And I still have that one. And I got to be, I got to be asked to do the Philippian common Philippines on the

Tyndale series. And it was published in 2022 and, but I was working at a 2020. So basically 40 years after I used it,

I was writing an updated version. Although, you know, his is still so wonderful. So it's not like a replacement.

It's just like, Oh, wonderful. So, and I, when I do the study for that, I'm doing things like, well, there are two different ways scholars go here.

I'm going to show some of, I'm going to show both and I'm going to say what I think, you know, and I can't cover every possible issue, but I cover, you know, the major ones and that's what commentaries offer.

They can be a little intimidating at first, but just go to the verse you're wondering about, read what they say, see if that illuminates something.

Well, speaking of Philippians, I want to do something that I wish every

Bible study I ever went to did. And now that I have you, I'm going to do it. It's okay. Here's the verse. Here's how

I understand it. How should I understand it? Cause that's what I thought Bible study was going to be. But now you've kind of outlined what proper

Bible study should have two translations and a commentary. That's amazing. I'm definitely going to implement that if I host one, but let's,

I have a couple of verses. I'm going to go through them. I would love for you to exegetically help me interpret them.

First one is Philippians four 13. I'm sure we all have this. I'm sure people have tattooed on them.

I'm sure it's like, I think it's in my mother's house right now in her kitchen. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

That to me sounds like, um, as long as God's on my side, I'm going to win the race. Um, as long as God's on my side,

I'm going to be successful. I'm going to heal. I can do all things that it is unlimited.

The things that are available to me, if God is on my side, is that not correct? Running my own podcast.

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Take a breath, slow down and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. I mean, it sure sounds like it.

If it's taken out of context, it's like anything, right? Nothing denied to me. And it's such a fascinating context.

It's at the very end of Philippians, as you know, chapter four. It's the last chapter of the book. And it starts, that section is chapter four, 10 through 20.

And it's all about Paul's commending, in a sense, doesn't really thank them explicitly, but commending the

Philippians for their financial gift to him, the way they supported him. Early in the letter, we heard about this guy,

Paphroditus, long name, who had come to Paul and brought their gift, and then is returning to the

Philippian church with the letter. So there's kind of this exchange back and forth. And what we've heard just in those two verses, three verses right before, verse 13, is

Paul's mentioning the gift and then saying, but I didn't need it in a sense, which is kind of the way they said thank you in the ancient world, just to let you know that this is not

Paul being disgruntled or not thankful. Good context. How are we supposed to know that?

Because if he says sort of, thank you, I needed it, then they might be bound to send more.

There's kind of this reciprocity thing that's just a little tricky in the ancient world, just like it is today. I love this.

But it functions differently today. The way we do reciprocity is different, but we still have it, right? It's like when they say no three times.

They're like, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, exactly. We don't need it. We don't say yes until the third time.

That's exactly. But so he just talked about that. So he said, thank you in a sense. And then he says, but I didn't need it because I've learned to be content in all situations.

When I have a little, when I have a lot, which I love that, because in my context, a lot of people have a lot.

And it's like, you have to learn contentment when you have a lot, because it's not just a, it's not just a no brainer. You have to figure out how to be content in both.

God can help with that. And that's the line, right? I can do all things.

I can do all what I've just said, content and want content with plenty. That's what he's talking about.

It rains it in and guides us to say, if you're struggling with contentment, which I think most people who are rich and poor struggle with contentment.

I think just people struggle with contentment. Then you have God's resources on your side to help you be content, not to give you everything you need, but to be content.

I can do all things through the one who gives me strength. Whoa. And again,

I like the NIV because they're very aware that this was a coffee mug verse and they translate it.

I can do all this. Now there's not a, that's called the demonstrative pronoun. It's there's not one in the

Greek, but it points back. And that's what they wanted to do. They wanted to say this first could be taken out of context so I can do all this.

And then the reader has to say, what is this? And then they go back. It's a gift from the NIV to you at that moment, especially because we're so used to saying, well, anything, anything, no, no, no context, context.

He's saying, I can, I can do either of these really hard things be content with,

I have with a lot or with a little, I can do both of those things through Christ who gives me strength. Contentment is not an easy thing.

Contentment is, I never even thought this reverse would be about contentment. Yeah. Yeah. And so read the context.

I mean, read the whole chapter, read the whole letter. It's only four, four chapters. It's a wonderful, quick read, but even like knowing, yeah.

I didn't know that that was a custom back then to say I didn't even need this because you're right today. You wouldn't never say that.

I'd be like, Oh, thanks for the present. I didn't need it though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To know that that was like the way that people said, thank you.

Isn't totally. And a commentary we'll talk. I talk about that in my commentary. Commentaries we'll talk about historical context issues that are important, not every single thing, but if it's important for understanding the passage, they will bring it up.

And remember Paul's in prison. We know find that out in chapter one. So he's talking from a place very different from what

I'm doing. Yep. Chapter one, we hear he's in chains. And so he's likely sitting next to a guard or two in shackles, either leg or arm shackles.

I mean, so those are some of the things that a commentary will explain to, just to give you a feel for prison. Because we think about a prison a certain way and it's going to be different in the first century world.

And there were different ways to be imprisoned. It could be under house arrest, like Paul is in acts, but, but that's not likely what's going on here.

So yeah. And it just enriches it. You know what I mean? It doesn't like, just,

I, I sometimes I think I would hear students complain, you know, about this, this, if we, if we're studying just the past, like what, what did

Paul mean for the Philippians in that context? Won't it just sort of be, you know, some obsolete and, and, and stay in the past and not really grab us.

And I've just never found that to be the case. It's when I really start to understand what Paul was saying is hidden in his context that it kind of just hits me like, am

I content or am I discontent? Have I drawn on Christ's power for contentment? Have I learned to live with a little or a lot, or, you know, have

I really reflected on this important topic that I don't think I hear preached much about, you know, contentment and yet very important topic.

I think whatever situation we're in, you know, it matters how we respond to these things.

It really also reshapes, like, even if you did have this, this is one of those good verses that like, even if you have a tattoo on your body or on your coffee mug, it's still so much more valuable when you put it exegetically.

Yeah. Still a great one for tattooing. I think, if you can learn to be content, you're far ahead of me, right?

Yeah. I mean, you know, the way we're not content with how we look or what we have, or, you know, you just think of all of the ways,

I think you can apply it to any of those because it's about contentment and we've learned to be discontent as part of our, you know, consumer marketing kind of culture that we're in.

And it probably has already always been around that kind of sense of not content with who we are.

Yeah. Not content with God. Let's go to another one because I want to get as many out of you as I can.

I have covered this a couple of times, but I'm curious if you have different interpretations. Jeremiah 29, 11, this is my confirmation verse.

So I feel very personally drawn to it. And this has always been one where like, like just the other day, like, my friend said, she's like,

God has amazing plans for your life cast. Like my friend used that in a moment of encouragement, you know, and Jeremiah 29, 11 for,

I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Of course, when I'm at my lowest and someone says, well, remember God has a plan for you and that plan is not to harm you.

That plan to save you hope it's like, Oh yeah, you're right. You're back on track because I'm a child of God. I'm guaranteed goodness.

Right. Can't forget that promise. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,

I'm no Old Testament scholar, but I've heard this one as well. And I've also heard, you know, the antidote for it, you know, the, the sense of, but this is a communal context.

This is, I mean, the head of chapter 29 for me in the

NIV says a letter to the exiles. This is Jeremiah writing to those who are in Babylon in exile.

And it's, it's to, you know, Judah. I mean, it's to the people of God in exile.

And he has just said in the verse before, and I have to read it in my small print.

There we go. This is what the Lord says when 70 years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place.

For I know the plans I have for you. The plans are directly connected to the restoration from exile, which is a amazing and wonderful promise that God has made ahead of time.

And now it does fulfill. We know that they come back to the land. You're not everyone, but many of them.

And then the temple is restored and all sorts of wonderful things begin to happen. It's a communal promise to Israel.

Does that mean we can't say there's anything there for us? No, I think it was written to Israel from Jeremiah.

It wasn't, it was, it can be written for us. If we, again, take that context really seriously and say, okay, so what does it mean to apply it more corporately than personally?

What might be, what is, what are God's intentions for his people, for the church?

And it doesn't mean there's a direct, I mean, it's not an exile. I mean, we don't want to try to do this kind of matchy matchy thing where it's like, okay, we're in exile somehow we have to put ourselves in.

No, no, no, that's not what's going on. I mean, how do we think about how God works with the people of God?

There's this powerful hope and restoration that God has already brought. We know that in Christ, you know, we have to think about the timeline.

You know, we're past the time of Jeremiah. We're no longer just Israel. Israel and Gentiles now part of the larger thing that is a church.

God still has plans for God's people, right? And there are restorative plans, but there's also this corporate.

So I think about the flourishing kind of that we hear there. And I think we all want to flourish, right? We want personally to flourish and corporately as a church to flourish.

But what would that look like? What does, how does the New Testament shape our understanding of how the church flourishes, even in the midst of suffering or lack or, you know, so it just kind of starts me thinking about the themes that I'm hearing and then try to put them in the context that I'm in post -New

Testament. And one of the verses that I, but I want to go back to just so really quick, verse 7, because if we think about just about the people of God flourishing, that God is intent on that.

Restoration is the final word for all believers. But verse 7 says this about their time in Babylon.

They're to, you know, marry, they're to plant gardens or, you know, just live in Babylon.

You're going to be there for a while. Live. But he also says, also seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which

I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for that city, for it. Because if it prospers, you too will prosper.

Wow. So it's not just that God is for the flourishing of the church. God is for the flourishing of the whole of humanity.

So how will we be a part of that? It just, it kind of ups the ante in terms of our corporate responsibility as a church and also the promise that God will help us flourish, will be the one who brings flourishing to us.

Okay. So if I'm not in exile, but maybe I lost my job, maybe going through a breakup, going through a divorce, going through the very intense things.

How do I look at that verse and say, well, how do I know God has a plan for me? Because I'm not in exile. I'm not, you know, like how do, what do we today take out of that?

Yeah. I think to say, we know God is for us. God desires our own, our personal and communal restoration and flourishing.

Those are just really built into the passage. There are themes that we can go. Yes. Even though we're in a different context, that's what it doesn't mean.

I'm promised any particular thing like this plan ABC, you know, all these steps, but that, that flourishing is if I am in Christ and clinging to Christ, flourishing will be the final product.

And we can trust that God wants that even in the day to day, how that looks for any particular person, you know, we struggle.

We struggle with grief and loss and, you know, all the things that are still getting in the way of God's final flourishing plan.

But God has said he, he will wrap that up. That will be the end result.

We will be finally people who have Shalom flourishing. So I hear in these old

Testament context, really those kind of Hebrew Bible themes of Shalom and Mishpat justice.

And, you know, just the, the way it will be in the end, that kind of final, other people call it utopia.

We call it what the new heavens and the new earth. Right. So, so I sort of the long game on this one for me, probably to say, yeah,

God has plans for his people. And in the end, all will be made.

Right. I can hear you that bigger vista here. This is one taste of it. It's on a bigger map across the whole of the cosmos.

That's amazing. Okay. I, you kind of mentioned in times a little bit, so I'm going to go into one of the verses that you sent

Luke 10, 18. This is something that I feel like is like prime to take out of context.

And like for any new believer, myself included, somebody that has been citing the word, but you know, you read this and you're like, what is he?

Jesus replied. I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Yes. So that's not so much end times, but beginning times.

Is that where Satan came from? Yes. If I want to understand where Satan came from, he fell from heaven.

Yeah. Right. And that, that I grew up, this was like one of the verses you went to, because there's not much, you know, we don't have much in Genesis other than a serpent.

Right. I mean, we don't have a lot of development of that persona, much in the old

Testament at all. And so some people go to Isaiah, some will go to them chronicles or places you can go to get a little pieces maybe, but those pieces are also, at least in Isaiah talking about a particular

King, King of Tyre, I think, you know, so it's like, is that about Satan or not?

You know, they're just, there's a lot of question marks because we don't have much on it. So it's like, people will run here and go, Oh, I saw

Satan fall like lightning. Jesus is referring to somehow his preexistence scene of this way back in the beginning.

And this is the fall of the angels, fallen angels. Yeah. Yeah. Which I can, we have very little in the

Bible to help us figure that out. Right. Where does evil come from? This comes in chapter 10 of Luke.

Only in Luke do we hear that are not only are the 12 sent out a mission, that happens earlier in chapter nine, but in 72 are sent out a mission, a larger group, likely men and women, especially because we've heard about the women in chapter eight who are also with Jesus in his travels, men with Jesus, women with Jesus.

So they come back and they report, this is the verse right before the 72 returned with joy and said, because they'd been told that they could, you know, do all, the miracles

Jesus was doing and to preach the gospel, doing kind of what Jesus has been doing. And they say,

Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name. In other words, are you able to cast out demons? And Jesus replies,

I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy.

Nothing will harm you in context. It feels like he's just talking about that. In other words, as he was, as he's hearing the report, he's saying yes.

And in that, in that activity that you're doing, Satan is losing power.

He is not, he is no longer the unrightful claimant of this world.

You know, the, the one who thinks that he's in control, but he is not. And I think that fits Jesus ministry across all of the gospels.

So it's not so much like an image of this is the origin story for evil. It's more like in their ministry, he saw, you know, he sees this decline and fall as he, you know, as he, as the

King arrives, I also, I also, what his name is John Timber says about Mark's gospel.

When Jesus arrives in Mark, it's not a visit, it's an invasion. It's just wow.

So that's what it feels like here. It's like the invasion is happening and the ground troops are out there and it's

Satan who is falling, you know? So in context that fits a lot better now there's no people debate whether there's any kind of signaling back.

I think it just fits perfectly here to say, this is the, the, this is

Jesus's ministry and his message going out in power. Okay.

Now I want to do one more, but I'm going to let you choose mostly because you know, what's behind the curtain here.

I'm, I just know the verse and you tell me what, which one has the biggest reveal of like, Oh, this is the one we can get wrong.

And it's all Matthew versus either Matthew 10 34, do not suppose that I've come to bring peace to the earth.

I did, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword little violent, Matthew 10 23, when you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.

Truly. I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the son of man comes or Matthew 16 27 for the son of man is going to come in his father's glory with his angels.

And then he will reward each person according to what they've done. Which one do we get the most wrong?

Yes. Oh, well, you know, okay. Do I want to get into end times eschatology as they say,

Oh my goodness. Um, but I think it will. Okay. This is what we'll do.

10 23. Okay. Which will help us with a number of other places across Matthew as well. Um, so the 10 23 was, uh, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the son of man comes.

The son of man comes. We hear that. And we just think that's shorthand for Jesus's second coming. Right. Which clearly the new

Testament talks about Matthew himself. We'll talk about it really clearly in chapter 24 36 and all the way to the end of chapter 25.

So that's certainly a reality. We look ahead to, I don't think that's what he's talking about here.

I don't think this is about the coming of the son of man in terms of his final return.

We've just heard in chapter 10, one through 23, the appointing of the 12 to go out in mission similar to the 72, but now here's the 12 here.

Um, and they're to go out in pairs and there's going to be some, um, pressing back persecution from Jews and Gentiles, non -believing

Jews. There were plenty of believing Jews, right. But, um, and then Gentiles, so they're going to have, it's not going to be an easy thing.

That's what we hear so far, kind of how they're to do it and God will prepare them to say what they need to say all that good stuff.

Um, and then he says, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the son of man comes.

This is a little allusion, which is a short little quote, kind of just a few words from Daniel seven, verse 13.

And actually Daniel seven, 13 and 14, which I'll read to you. Um, I'll read you 13 is alluded to, or even quoted a number of times across Matthew and it's always language of son of man coming.

And sometimes it's on the clouds of heaven. And sometimes it's about, um, this son of man being set up, uh, in the throne room of God with authority.

So if any of those pieces can show up at a number of places in Matthew, um, but the coming of the son of man is

Erichomai and then that's a Greek in son of man. So Daniel seven, 13 says this in my vision at night, this is a vision that Daniel has had.

I looked and, um, there before me was one like a son of man.

It's likely where, um, Matthew, Jesus himself speaks about himself throughout

Matthew. He draws that language son of man. Ezekiel uses the language too, but it's probably Daniel. That's the kind of at the heart of what he's doing.

So one like a son of man coming Erichomai with the clouds of heaven.

He approached the ancient of days and was led into his presence and was given authority and glory and sovereign power and his worship.

He has everlasting dominion. It's this powerful enthronement moment in Daniel, this one, like a son of man.

And which way is he coming? Cassian, I'm going to ask you the question you have to answer. Which way is he coming in Daniel?

Is he coming down or up? Which way? Coming down. Well, in, in son of man, into the throne room going up in Daniel.

Yeah. Yes. So I think that's what's going on in these different places.

And Matthew, we're here, the son of man coming. He's alluding to Daniel. He's saying he's being enthroned when the son of man is enthroned.

So before, and when does that happen? Well, it happens at his resurrection. It happens at his second coming.

And we could even say his enthronement or his vindication he's vindicated happens.

For example, when the temple falls because he's predicted it, his vindication becomes a kind of a theme in Matthew.

Dick France, RT France commentator has pointed this out. I find it so terribly helpful. So it's not my idea alone, so I keep on borrowing it.

So the idea of the coming is an upward thing, by the way, when we get to chapter 24, when you start hearing about the second coming, it's a different word for coming.

It's a very technical term in Greek. It's parousia. And whenever it's used of Jesus in the new

Testament, it means his return this way coming. I know we're talking, you know, up and down and in a world, we know everything is not kind of fully up and down, you know, like outer space, whatever.

But in terms of ancient conceptions of things, the coming of Jesus will be his parousia.

This coming is his vindication. Listen, then what Matthew says, Jesus says at his trial with the high priest, he says, the high priest said to Jesus, I charge you under oath by the living

God. Tell us if you are the Messiah, the son of God, Jesus replied, you have said so.

But I say to all of you from now on, you will see the son of man sitting on the right at the right hand of the mighty one and coming on the clouds of heaven.

That's a really clear allusion to Daniel. And it means they will see him vindicated. They will see him sitting in the place where God sits, not coming this way, coming this way.

It means it's a, it's a, basically it's a way to say, you will see me vindicated. God will show that I am truly the

Messiah. It says a lot about who Jesus is in Matthew. I know it's a mind bender.

Yeah. It's my mind is bent. So I'm trying to like, go back like at the poor people reading this verse, that's a harder route to go at like end up down what you just said.

I understand when we got there, but if you're just reading Matthew 10, 23 in church, when you're persecuted in one place, flee to another, truly

I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the son of man comes. It's hard to say. And that's when

Jesus has vindicated him. He's enthroned. Because we don't know Daniel like the first readers knew

Daniel. And that's part of it is that the really important verse set of verses within Jewish thinking, and it is a, this picture of enthronement, um, and whether Jewish faithful Jewish people read that as a single person or as the, you know, the small group of the elect kind of the, you know, the, the anyway, however, they read it, really

Christians read it as Jesus. Jesus is the son of man who is now enthroned is vindicated at his resurrection at his, um, second coming all it all.

Yeah. All of those things, but it's, it's not one, one horizon is kind of multiple horizons, which is a lot of the way eschatology or the end time stuff works in the

Bible. You see multiple horizons. Well, that happened back then, but it's going to happen. It happened in Jesus's time and it's going to happen again.

You know, you kind of see these kind of multiple layers. So that's why I didn't want to get into eschatology because that's hard stuff.

But I would say, um, so my commentary on, um, the

Matthew and the teach the text series, we'll talk about each of those places and do a description of that. I mean,

I'm certainly happy to share a little piece of it as well. If there's a way I can say, you know, share some with your readers.

And anyway, maybe the, not the one we wanted to end with, how about I can do all thing, all this through Christ who gives me strength.

No, I will absolutely link all of your work. And just because we are wrapping up, I want to know, like, if you could give

Christians two to three habits, they're listening, they understand that they are, there's a couple of things they've done wrong so far, just because they're lacking some context or background or translation.

What could you say that they could do immediately to improve how they read the Bible? First thing is to read larger sections of the

Bible. Don't presume that a single verse is enough for a day. It's not that it's harmful, but a verse a day isn't necessarily the way to read.

Just jump in and read and pick a shorter book to start with. If you want to, you know, pick Philippians or the book of Ruth, or, or start reading

Matthew and read a number of verses, you know, I'm sorry, chapters going by. My granddaughter is crying over here.

Yeah. And then, so reading larger sections, whole books, read in two different translations and, you know, read one translation.

Just get yourself going in your favorite translation. That's fine. But then when you run into something that you're puzzled by, or you wonder about, and you think, or you think

I really want to study this more, go to another translation as well. Or read through Philippians one translation, read through it in another, you know, kind of think about making it a more regular practice to use two translations.

And so reading whole books, as much as you can move in that direction, reading a couple of different translations.

And then when you're confused about something, don't be afraid to use a commentary find an accessible commentary of some kind.

I've given you a few ideas, but that those are just so helpful. I go to commentaries all the time. Cause I need,

I like if I'm on Jeremiah, you know, I don't say Jeremiah regularly, so I need to go to a commentary. And I kind of know the series that's going to help me a little bit.

Cause I've gotten used to that, but just get your feet wet and try it out and, you know, see what they're selling on Logos and, you know, seeing what you can incorporate into your library there.

So I think those are three practices I would say. And then, I'm sorry, I was going to say one thing, which is just always be aware that we're bringing our own selves to the text.

That can be a strength. That can be a hindrance if we're just oblivious to what we bring. So more awareness around who's in the room with us.

When we interpret, I always like to say, you're never in the room by yourself. There's also, you know, like I have my parents with me.

I have my church tradition, even though I thought I grew up in a tradition that had no tradition. You know, I was aware of the traditionalist stream of Christianity, because we didn't talk about it much.

But who's in the room with you? Think about those things as well, so that you're not simply saying,

I know this is what it means. It's obviously clear. And then whoever doesn't agree with me is ridiculous.

We don't want to have that kind of posture. I think knowing that we bring our own lenses to the text helps us to be more humble in conversation with people who disagree with us.

Sounds a good thing. I love that. I love that. And for people that want to connect with you, they want to know more about your work.

They want to buy some of your commentaries or attend some of your classes. How can they do that? Go to Bethel University and Bethel Seminary.

If you want to check out, send me an email. If you want to hear more about seminary, we also have something called Seminary for Everyone.

That's just little month long courses. We're about to start one. That's a seminary sampler to get to know our leadership and our formation faculty.

And then we have Karen Swallow Prior coming next June for a course. We're really excited about, we do a

October, January, and June, month long class, not for credit, but for learning.

So go to our Seminary for Everyone page as well. Amazing. Well, I am so glad that I got to chat with you.

I feel like there's a lot we left on the table. So you're more than welcome to come back so we can continue the conversation if you're willing. I would love to come.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time. This was very valuable. Thank you so much. It was great to be here.