Christian and the Occult — Bill McLeod

Giving No Place to the Devil

I would like to take a verse from Ephesians chapter 4, a well-known verse, neither give place to the devil. Don't give any place, any room, for the devil. Which means, of course, that Christians may do this, for the Spirit of God would not have led Paul to bring this warning to Christian people.

It is possible for believers to give room in their life to Satan in various ways. Now I realize that there is a great difference of opinion between Christians in regard to some aspects and areas of the occult.

I have 50 books on the subject in my library and I wonder how they keep from fighting. You know, one book says that Christians cannot be possessed by demons and the next book says that they can. And somehow they seem to repose on the shelf in harmony.

I don't claim to be an expert on the occult. Maybe you do. I'm still learning and I'm willing to learn also. But I would say to you, as Paul said to King Agrippa, I beseech you to hear me patiently. Don't form a bad opinion because of something I say which disagrees with what you believe.

But if you could hear me patiently to the end, I would appreciate that very, very much. Beginning then, do not give place to the devil. Some people ask the question, why bother? One preacher said to me, Well, Billy said, really, I don't think there's any problem of this kind today, whatever.

And so he said, I don't know why even bother. He said, really, frankly, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I think it's sort of a waste of time. And so we talked about this a while. One of America's best known counselors, he's written several good books on the subject and they are good books.

In one of his books declares that it is not possible for Christians today to really be bothered by demons at all in any way. And we've corresponded about this. But he feels very strongly that Christians cannot.

And I wish I could talk with him personally, not that I feel I could persuade him, but I would certainly like to get his insight on certain Bible statements. For example, Ephesians chapter 6, where it distinctly declares that we Christians wrestle with wicked spirits in heavenly places.

Now that's got nothing to do with demon possession, but it does mean that we are being opposed by these powers. And so for him to say that demons have nothing whatever to do with Christians today, in my opinion, is simply not true.

A lapel mic? Think that'll be better? All right. I'm sorry. All right. In 1 Corinthians chapter 10, verse 20, Paul discusses the possibility of Christians having fellowship with demons. The word is devils in the King James Version.

We should be aware of the fact that in the New Testament there's only one devil, but there are many demons. And Paul discusses the possibility. He says, brethren, I would not that you should have fellowship with demons.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot be partakers of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? And again, I would say this.

If it's not possible for Christians to have fellowship with fallen angels, with demons, then why do we have this kind of a warning in the word of God? We may have fellowship with demons by partaking in occult practices.

Well, things like Ouija boards, exposing ourselves to horoscopes, having our palm read, going to a fortune teller, and so on. There's about 150 areas of the occult today. There were eight back in Deuteronomy chapter 18, but the 150 today are nothing more than variations of the original eight.

But any time I get involved in the occult, I'm guilty, whether I sense it or see it or know it or not, I'm guilty of having fellowship with fallen angels that hate God, that hate Christ, that hate everything holy, that hate the word of God, and that hate Christians.

So, we have this thought in Ephesians chapter 5, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. That word reprove in the Greek language, it carries with it the thought of reproving in the sense of exposing.

Exposing. So we are not to have fellowship with fallen angels. Rather, we are to expose them, reprove them, rebuke them. In 2 Corinthians chapter 4, we have a well-known verse. It says, we have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty.

I think the marginal reading says shame. The Spanish Bible says we have renounced the occult. That's the word they use. We Christians have renounced the occult. If we haven't, we should. And we should make doubly sure that we have no part in anything of this kind.

Make doubly sure that Satan has no part in me. Christ said the prince of this world comes and has nothing in me. Let's make sure that the prince of this world has nothing in us. Of course, it raises the question I get it asked.

Whether Christians Can Be Demonized

I have this question asked me everywhere I go. Can Christians have demons? Or can Christians be possessed by demons? Perhaps I should point out at this moment that the Greek word possessed in the New Testament, all it means is demonize.

Without telling us to what extent or in what ways. Demonize. Under the influence and power and control of a demon or demons, but to what extent or in what ways, we're not really told. We very rarely see what I would call total possession such as the demonic of Gadara.

It says of him, and always day and night he was in the mountains and in the tombs crying and cutting himself with stones. Now that's total possession. Completely under the power, under the control of demon spirits.

Now what I see in my work is not that. It's people who can operate normally most of the time and then there are times when they cannot. And they're obviously under the control of some other power. Can Christians be possessed by a demon?

I think we'd have to clarify our terms. I prefer to use the word invaded. Although it's interesting to observe that a man as astute as Professor Merrill Unger, some of his textbooks on this subject are used in seminaries and Bible schools.

And in the first several books he wrote, he said unequivocally, no Christian could be possessed by demons. But a couple of years ago, he wrote a book entitled, What Demons Can Do to Sinning Saints. Now when the Moody Press had the manuscript, they sent it to me because they'd heard I had some experience in the area, I suppose, and asked for my comments on it.

And I was very surprised because I'd read his earlier books. I was very surprised to discover that in this book, he says he's had to totally reverse his opinion and he believes now that Christians can be possessed.

But again, I'd like to talk with him as to the meaning of the word. Possess. Does he mean total possession? With that I could not agree. But I do believe that Christians can be crippled, they can be hurt spiritually, and sometimes even physically.

Take the case of that woman in Luke chapter 13. The account tells us that she was bowed together for 18 years. She was bound by Satan. And it says she had a spirit of infirmity and was bound for 18 years.

And Jesus Christ set her free. But the point I want to make is this, that from what is said in that chapter, she was a true believer. Because Christ said, Ought not this woman being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound, lo, these 18 years be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day.

She was a daughter of Abraham. And by that, I don't think Jesus Christ meant she was a Jew. Because in the 19th chapter of the same Gospel of Luke, we read about Zacchaeus. And after Zacchaeus said, Lord, behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

Christ said, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham. Now salvation doesn't come to a house because you are a Jew. It comes when you become a genuine, a true child of God.

So then we read in Galatians chapter 3, the last verse, And if you be Christ, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. So I take it from that she was a true believer, and she had a spirit of infirmity from Satan, and she was bound physically for 18 years, and Jesus Christ set her free.

So while I do not believe that Christians can be totally possessed, I believe they may be invaded physically, spiritually in different ways, by these evil powers. Neither give place to the devil. Let's move on from there.

Avoiding Extremes in Demonology

We come next to the danger of extremes. You know, back in the days when Christ was on earth, there were just a few hundred Sadducees and several thousand, maybe six or seven thousand Pharisees. The Sadducees believed too little, and the Pharisees believed too much.

The Sadducees said there was no resurrection, neither of angel nor of spirit, and the Pharisees confessed both. So the Sadducees believed too little, and the Pharisees believed too much. So you have the two opposite extremes, and you have that today, when it comes to the area of the occult.

We've indicated some people feel there's nothing in this area at all today. Demons can't afflict or hurt God's people, so forget about it. And then you have at the opposite extreme, you have people, and there are many of them, who they see demons in everything, and almost in everybody.

I mean, if there's a squeak in the car wheel, that's a demon trying to take the wheel off. If a cricket should happen to chirp in the fireplace, it's a demon. If there's a noise in the wall which may be due to the frost in the wintertime, that's a demon.

And so some people see demons in everything, and demons almost in everybody. I read a book a while ago written by a Christian, and this person said, all Christians have demons, and if you have one, you probably have 50.

And once a month you have to get together with other Christians and have what she called a flushing out session. So you appoint one member of the group, and he takes over, and he commands the demons to come to the service, and if you get a queasy feeling in your stomach, that's a demon coming up, burp him out, and breathe in the Holy Ghost.

That's the kind of instruction that some people are giving, and some people are taking this. Personally, I think that's nonsense. For one thing, you don't burp demons out. Of 35 cases in the New Testament where demons were expelled, it was always done by somebody else.

Not by the person themselves. Which is not to say that it's not possible for a person to expel demons from themselves, but just to say it's highly unlikely and improbable because we simply don't have anything like this in the New Testament.

And so we have these extremes basically and mainly because people are not willing to be guided by what the New Testament says. Here are some other extremes. I look on them as being extremes. And remember, I ask you to be patient with me, there are those who teach that you cannot cast demons out unless, first of all, you get their name.

You have to know what their name is because if you command a demon to go and you don't do it by name, then he isn't going to listen. What would you do with a legion? Let's say 3 ,000 to 4 ,000 or 5 ,000 demons in one person.

Are you going to wait to get a list of all their names? Jesus never. Again, of the 35 cases in the New Testament where demons were cast out, in only one case was this question asked. What is your name?

And that was a question Jesus asked and He didn't have to ask it because He knew who they were. And the answer was, Our name is legion for we are many. So they didn't really give their names. And He simply said, Go!

And they went, all of them. Now, if you were to allot 5 minutes to every demon and try and cast out 6 ,000 demons, do you know how long it would take you? If you worked 16 hours a day, it would take you about 40 days.

Obviously an impossible thing. You don't have this in the New Testament. Why do we have it in our practice today? Then we have the idea that in order to expel demons from a person, you have to start with the buck private at the bottom and you throw him out.

Then you move up to the corporal and you throw him out. Then you move up to the sergeant. Then you move up to the captain. Then you move up to the major. Then you go up to the colonel. And finally you get the CO at the top.

But they're telling us in much of this literature that you can't do it any other way. Well, it sounds like a neat parcel. But the problem is you do not find this in the Word of God. And I think we could be saved from a lot of grief and problems and save ourselves a lot of unnecessary time if we would simply go by what the Bible says and not allow our imagination or anybody else's imagination to run away with us.

Because one of the things that Satan wants to do is get people involved in this area and get them involved unbiblically, and then he can burn up weeks of their time. And I've seen it happen. I think of a godly pastor, a man who hardly a week went by that he didn't win souls to Christ.

I respect him highly. But he got involved in something like this and for three weeks he had no time for soul winning. And he had a long list of names of demons they'd supposedly cast out of this person, only to find later on that it was all a put-on by her own confession.

It was a put-on. And Satan had tied him up for three solid weeks,.

Doing nothing. Now, let's be sure if we're working in this area.

That we're working biblically. The outline is quite clear and simple. Paul said we are not ignorant of Satan's devices, but we are if we don't know our Bible well. And we are if we're not willing to really apply this word in the language of one of the Psalms, Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right, and I hate every false way.

Anything that does not agree with the word of God, I hate that, and I will not knowingly apply it or use it in Christian work. All right? The danger of extremes. Then there's a problem of recognizing real demon invasion.

Recognizing Genuine Demonic Invasion

How can I recognize this? How can I be sure that a person has a demon? That's not easy, because you may be up against nothing more or less than the demon itself. Do you remember what Jesus Christ said?

It's a very peculiar statement. I've never read anything on it, but Christ said, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you has a demon? Now, is that what He said? No, that's not what He said. He said one of you is a demon.

Judas Iscariot. Was Judas Iscariot actually a fallen angel? No, I don't believe he was. But he had all the characteristics of a demon. So Christ said, One of you is a demon. And so there's what we might call then the demon of self.

I asked somebody one time, I said, Could you tell me, Could you just give me a description of how evil you feel a demon would be? And they struggled with that and really couldn't give me an answer, so I said, Well, I'll attempt one, and you tell me what you think of it.

Desperately wicked. Oh, they said, Yes, that's good. I said, Isn't it interesting in Jeremiah 17, God said that about the human heart. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Desperately wicked.

And sometimes people replicate nothing more or less than the demon of self. When we think, it's a demon from Satan. Let me give you an example. A pastor, a Christian worker, came for counseling. He told my song leader, Now, he said, I'm sure I've got demons.

I said, Why? Well, he was having such a struggle in the area of a pure heart to think right. He couldn't do it. And he said, I'm reading salacious literature. I watch the dirtiest programs on TV I can find.

He said, My wife doesn't know a thing about it. But he said, You know, it's only a matter of time until it erupts like a volcano and I'm gone. He said, I'll lose my family. I'll lose my ministry. I'll dishonor my God.

He said, I must have demons. Well, we checked it out. There was no sign of demon activity that we could discover. So I said, My brother, you're going to have to face up to something that says in the book of James, Every man is tempted when he's drawn away of his own lust, the demon of self, and enticed.

And he accepted that. And we went to prayer with him. I wish you could have seen it. It's one of those things I sometimes wish I had on tape, on a film. He prayed with such intensity I thought his body would break in two.

His body was just snapping back and forth like this as he called upon God. And oh, he wept before God. And he begged God to forgive him and set him free. And suddenly, in the middle of his prayer, he laughed right out loud.

And you could just about hear the chains go clunk on the floor. He was free and he knew it. And then through his tears of joy, he said, Oh God, thank you for giving me the gift of repentance. I was never able to repent until just now.

I hated it, but I couldn't repent of it. Thank you, God. Then the next night, he gave his testimony. He didn't refer to his problem directly, just sort of obliquely, he said. I had a very serious problem in my life.

And last night, Jesus set me free. And I want to sing my testimony. We were in a church seating a thousand. There were not a thousand there that night, but there was a good crowd. And you'll never guess the song he sang.

Oh, happy day that fixed my choice on thee, my Savior and my God. Well, may this glowing heart rejoice and tell its raptures all abroad. Happy day, happy day, when Jesus washed my sins away. What a message.

That whole church was melted to tears. I was weeping. Everybody was weeping. It was just as if God had lowered an angel on a golden cord out of heaven. It was one of those rare things that happens sometimes in this kind of work.

And finally he got to that place. Now rest my long divided heart fixed on this blissful center. Rest, nor ever from my Lord depart. With him of every good possessed. And he broke down and couldn't sing anymore.

Oh, I wouldn't have missed that for anything. But he never had a demon. It was an uncrucified self. So we have to be careful in diagnosing. And many times someone comes and says, I think I have demons.

So then we figure they have demons because they think they have. Or because somebody else says, well, we think they have demons. We pursue that. Why do you think this? On what do you base your conclusion?

That's one problem. Then I intimated already that it may be what I call a put on. Here's what happened in Denver, Colorado some years ago. I had a crusade with about 40 or 50 churches. We went for five weeks.

And the last Sunday morning they brought a man to me after the morning service. And they said, this man's got demons. Pray with him. Well, this was way back. I'd had very little experience then. And what I'd planned to do was to fast all Sunday, all Sunday afternoon to pray to ready myself for that final concluding rally Sunday night.

And the devil knew that. So what happened? As soon as this fellow walked into the room he fell on the floor frothing at the mouth it seemed. Voices began calling out of him in different languages. And so we thought, well, it's got to be demons.

So we did things then that I would not do now. But we began by asking, demon, give us your name. And he gave us a name. So we commanded that demon to go to the pit. And his body vibrated up and down on the floor like this.

And it roared and roared and his head went back and his head was snapping. And all of a sudden he was limp. So we thought the demon's gone. And people listened on until five o 'clock in the afternoon.

And then you know what happened? He got to his seat and said, well, I deceived you. And he walked out the door. I looked at my song and I said, I said, hey. I said, the devil just took us for a ride. We learned something.

We'll not get trapped this way again. You see, the devil has many, many ways of working. We had a case. This girl, people working with her claimed they'd cast many demons out. As a matter of fact, they had a list which they showed me of all these demons.

And they wanted me to help them because they weren't making any progress. There were always more. They never seemed to get to the bottom. When I talked to that girl, the first thing I said was this. I said, if this is a put-on, you'll be in trouble.

And she went into hysterics. Oh, she cried and wept all over the place that I didn't think she had demons. I said, I didn't say you didn't have demons. I said, if this is a put-on, you'll be in trouble.

And I remember one day they were working with her and her pastor said, Bill, look into her eyes. Look at the demon looking out of her eyes. I looked into her eyes. All I could see was a pair of gray eyes.

I couldn't see a demon. Maybe I was dull. Anyway, I had a song leader with me and he had some experience in this area because his wife had been demon-possessed at one time. And he said to me one day, he said, Bill, I think this whole thing is phony-blowing.

And I said, so do I. But how can we persuade these people? It was about impossible. So here's what happened. My song leader, unknown to me, we were not staying in the same house, he prayed one night and he said, Lord, if this is a put-on, strike her blind the way you struck Elements the Sorcerer blind in Acts chapter 13.

Now, I didn't know he prayed this way. And I prayed on Tuesday. I said, Lord, if this is a put-on, bring it to a head at the latest by 12 o 'clock on Thursday. And 11 o 'clock Thursday morning, that girl went totally blind.

She couldn't see a thing. And she was crying all over the place. How long will I be blind? What's happening? And at this point, I didn't know how my song leader had prayed. But I knew how I'd prayed. And then we got together.

And when I told her, I said, hey, I said, you know, this gal is blind. He said, what? And he told me how he'd prayed. So I told him how I'd prayed. So then we got together with her pastor. Then he accepted it.

Then we talked to the girl. We read the story in Acts 13. We said, now look, sister, this is what's happened. She cried, she cried. This was in the morning, maybe 12 o 'clock or so, and I had to go for a meeting in a high school.

She never broke till 3 o 'clock in the afternoon. Then she broke and confessed. The whole thing was a put on. It was all done to get attention for no other reason than this. Remember, now, this had been going on for almost four weeks.

She'd burned up all kinds of people's times, but she was doing it to get attention. What happened? After she confessed, in a half an hour, her eyesight came back. I've had six or seven cases like this now.

So I never rush in and assume it's a demon case. I realize Satan may be trying to get me occupied with something that will burn up a lot of time and cripple me. So we have to be very careful. Now, of course, there may be other problems.

It may be due to senility. It may be due to the fact the person has a chemical imbalance in their body. I remember counseling once with a lady. She and her husband, both Christians. She couldn't get out of the house because she said if she started to walk down the sidewalk, the sidewalk opened up like this and she saw she was going to fall and be swallowed up.

Well, a lot of people figure that's demon activity. No, it wasn't. She had a chemical imbalance in her body and when that was corrected, all of this ended and from that point on she was perfectly normal.

It may be due to a drug reaction and I know what that's like because I had a very serious drug reaction a few years ago. I thought it was going completely out of my mind. The doctors had given me chloroquine and later on when I talked with a specialist back here in Saskatoon, he got the book down and said well, let's see what the book says about reactions.

And I had them all, every one of them. I felt like ramming my head into a wall. If I'd had a hammer, I'd have been beating myself on the head with the hammer. I couldn't look at anything or anybody for longer than four seconds before my mind was just whirling in circles and I was in a deep, long, black tunnel.

I couldn't even pray. It was impossible to even pray and I thought I'm going completely berserk which I think I would have done but for the grace of God. And he came to me with a verse. I will trust and not be afraid.

Did I tell you I held on to that verse? God is so good. But you see, people can have other problems that look like demon problems. I'm just trying to clear the decks. I'll be lecturing again tonight and we'll deal more specifically then with how to counsel and what to do and so on when you come up against a real demon problem.

But I am trying to clear the decks at this particular point. We'll say this much. As far as recognizing demon invasion, you have the phenomena of what's been called this inner resistance. It's a resistance to holy things.

People get to the point when they really are invaded by demons where they do not find Bible reading profitable. They don't want it. The phenomena of resistance it's called. They can't listen for very long to preaching about Jesus Christ.

I remember one lady, she said, I can't listen to more than two gospel songs and I have to get out. My mind just goes completely in a whirl. And I hate it. She was a Christian. And then there'll be less and less desire to be found in the house of God.

And of course corresponding to less and less interest in the things of God all around the circuit. That is very frequently, not always, but very frequently a sign of a genuine demonic invasion. Then, when people have blasphemous thoughts against God constantly, it is not always, but very frequently a sign of a demonic invasion.

When people discover they can't pray. I remember once counseling with a man. He was involved in a boys work in an evangelical church in eastern Canada. And he said, I don't know what's wrong, but he said, I have blasphemous thoughts against God all the time.

Matter of fact, I blaspheme God at times. I commit adultery all the time. I know it's wrong and I hate it, but I do it anyway. I lie all the time. And I can't pray. And I can't read the Bible. We knew instinctively what the problem was.

So he went to prayer. But he couldn't pray. And I was trying to lead him to renounce the areas. Well, actually, you'll be shocked by this. He was only involved in one area of the occult. And that was reading horoscopes.

That's all he'd ever done. But he couldn't pray. And when we tried to get him to pray to help him, he knelt there and he ground his teeth. That's all he could do. So I said to my partner, I said, listen, let's just believe God to break the power of demons in this man's life.

And so we believed the Lord and we commanded these demons to loosen their hold on this man because he was a genuine child of God as far as I could see. And then he was able to follow me in a sentence prayer.

My dear Heavenly Father, I ask you to forgive me for being involved in the occult. I know it's wrong. Please forgive me. And so on we prayed. And we got to that place. I now renounce the devil and all his works, including the horoscopes.

And that's all as far as he needed us to pray. He cried out at that moment. He said, oh, my soul is flowing out to God. And he began to pray. You should have heard him. Oh, how he prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed as free as a bird.

And that was Sunday morning after the morning service. And Sunday evening he gave his testimony. When he came down the aisle to give his testimony, I never even recognized the man. He was so totally transformed.

But there's no doubt at all that he was genuinely invaded by demon powers. All right, are there things that may be there? Sometimes people have pains in their bodies, pains that have no physical root.

They go to a doctor. They talk about their pains. The doctors can't find any physical reason for it, but the pains are there. We dealt with a woman like this one time in Selkirk, Manitoba. I discovered she was involved in the occult.

And I don't remember now how many areas it was, but I remember it was several and we dealt with them. And she later on gave her testimony and said that from that night all those strange pains that she'd had for 10 or 12 years, they ended.

She didn't have any more. It was all gone. You'll remember in the New Testament that demons could afflict people in many ways. We know that's the case in Luke chapter 13, bowed together for 18 years. There are other cases where demons, they struck people dumb or deaf.

We've had sessions where the person was not able to see. They could not hear. They could not speak temporarily until the power of these things was broken. But when people have pains that have no physical cause, it may be because of a demonic invasion.

And that needs to be checked out. And we'll be talking about this checking out matter a little later on. And then, there's something I must say. And that is, no matter how you get involved in the occult, there is always, always a hidden price tag on your involvement.

The Hidden Cost of Occult Involvement

People come and say to me, you said something about the Ouija board and somebody got in real trouble because they used the Ouija board. I use the Ouija board all the time. I don't have any problems. What they're telling me is this, they don't have them but someone else in the family has them because either you'll have them or somebody in your immediate family will have the problems.

It isn't necessarily the person who does it that will suffer in this way. The devil has a different price tag. If he had the same price tag on every form of involvement, we Christians would soon read the thing and we wouldn't get involved.

But there's always a hidden price tag on involvement in the occult. Let me illustrate. I lectured on this one time in a church in eastern Canada and the minute I finished, a lady jumped to her feet at the back and she was crying and she said, now I know, now I know.

I said, what do you know? She told us what happened. They had a beautiful family, wonderful relationship between the various members of the family. Then all of a sudden seemingly she said overnight, my husband became an alcoholic, useless, no good, wouldn't work, couldn't work.

One of her sons committed suicide. One of her sons had been sent up for five years in a penitentiary. Her daughter had disappeared, had been gone for two years. They hadn't had any word from her for two years.

And she said, I never knew until tonight. But all that started the night that I brought a Ouija board into our home. Now it hadn't hurt her, but every member of her family had been hurt by it. There is definitely a price tag on involvement and we need to know that.

So then when people come for counseling you check these various areas out. I have a list of about 150 occult areas. I have the people read the list and then tell me what areas they may have been involved in.

And then we take it from there. Now if a person is a Christian and goes into the occult deliberately in a state of rebellion against God, it's always a much worse involvement a deeper invasion, much more difficult for such people to get out.

But where people are Christians and they get innocently sucked into this vortex, it's much easier for them to get out. We've noticed that again and again. We had a case in Winnipeg. I was in a crusade there back in 71, 72 December and January.

And a fellow came marching up to the front of this church one night. The guy making obscene gestures with his fingers. He had a big red sash tied around him. And one of our helpers went down to talk with him and he squared off for a fist fight.