The Spiritual Abuse of Ravi Zacharias

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18 plus terms and conditions apply. See website for details. One, two, three. Welcome to the Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Housekeeping, Health Update, and Book Giveaway

Well welcome to another edition of the Wrap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport. This is a podcast put together by Striving for Eternity. Just check out everything we do at strivingforeternity .org.

We are on the Christian podcast community. If you want to see the 39 other podcasts that are currently out there, you can go to christianpodcastcommunity .org. I'm joined by my friend in sunny Florida because I can see the sun on his face.

Yeah, it's probably warmer there than here. You have no snow outside.

It's Mr. Bud. Greetings. Yes, wonderful day. I'm looking out the window, blue skies, a very frigid 52 degrees. So yeah, I will survive, perseverance.

You know, just tell me one thing. What's the temperature? 5 -2. 5 -2. 52 degrees.

That's actually cold for you, huh? Oh, this is, yeah. I'll have a parka. I got to run down to the church later and yeah, so.

Well my son is in Texas where it was 7 degrees. They're not used to that there. Yeah.

I feel for those folks. I mean, I really do, and there's some tragic things happening, but.

But it is warmer here than Texas, which is strange, but I have snow outside. I got like two foot of snow, so. When is summer? Well, it may be tomorrow. I think it's looking good. I'm usually wishing for spring around September.

Around, yeah, yeah. So let's, before we get started with today's show, and like I said online, I think, and if you want to find me online, I'm on both Parler and on Gab at Andrew Rappaport. That's where you can find me, so go follow me there.

You can find out what goes on, but I did share that we're going to be talking about Ravi Zacharias today. And I think, Bud, that the way that you and I are looking to approach it, I think this is going to be a little different than the way I've seen everyone else approaching it.

Everyone else seems to want to focus on whether or not Ravi Zacharias is in hell right now. Maybe we'll address that because that seems to be the common question, but that's not where we want to go on this show.

So before that, though, we do have some housekeeping to do because we have a book giveaway. We had on the previous, well, the previous previous, because I kind of, last previous was a really short episode.

I guess I should give an update on that, huh? Okay, let me give an update. So I'll do housekeeping before the housekeeping. Does that sound fair, Bud? You've already lost me, so go ahead. I'll nod in agreement.

Yeah, I am doing, health-wise, I am doing better. My blood pressure has come down to normal, but I've also been running about three to seven miles a day. I've been doing two runs a day, lifting, so that helped with bringing down the weight as well, since I've been seriously watching my diet, no sodium at all, actually very little of anything, except for the fact, Bud, I don't know if you saw this on Apologetics Live, we had our 100th anniversary.

Congratulations. Yes, thank you. We had 100 episodes, and yeah, Mr. Matt Slick decided to do something to make it memorable, and I wasn't really happy with him about this, but for 10 years, Matt Slick has been attempting to buy, well, even to buy himself a meal.

He failed whenever we were together, but he attempted, he would always attempt to buy me a meal, and he would fail at every, I mean, every attempt. This is over, like, 10 years, you know, of trying hard.

He tried many different things and failed at all of them. In the middle of the show, about 40 minutes into the show, my doorbell rang, and I explained to the woman, there's no one named Matthew here, you got the wrong address, and shut the door and said, you know, I'm on a call, and ran back, doorbell rang again, and I see, I could see Matt in the camera on a phone, you know, he's got his phone to his ear, and he's on mute, and my doorbell rings again, and I hear her talking to none other than Matt Slick, and he's like, just put him on the phone.

He's saying, this has been a long battle, I've been trying to buy him a meal, and he doesn't let me, just leave, like, you gotta leave it there, and there's Matt doing a door dash. He door dashed me with a lot of sushi.

So he successfully, after 10 years, he won, he actually got one meal off of, like, I probably have, like, dozens and dozens on him, but yes. So it was hilarious, because he knew that, he knew what was going on, no one else in the show knew what was going on until I came back with a bag, and he's, he interrupted Jason Lyle to boast, proudly boast, that he got me, and that whether his, my wife accepted the bag from the door dash person or not, he bought me a meal, and since my wife doesn't eat sushi, and he knows that, I was stuck, Matt won, I admit it, so, yeah.

But other than that, I've been eating very, very little, that's probably the only sodium that I had in two weeks. Been doing much better, people have been telling me they can hear, just, I've removed some of the stress in my life, there's some things that, not ready to share yet, but things that I've let go of, and that have really reduced the stress, which was the indicator, or the factor, I want to say it's the stressor, but that's kind of, the stress being the stressor.

I'm glad to hear that, because, actually, I'm back, and, so, obviously, I wasn't one of the things you eliminated to address your stress issues, because we'd have to cut the broadcast, and I'd need to go repent if I thought that that might have remotely been.

That you were the stressor, no, no, actually, I think the stressor is, the stressor is that I'm going to be back in your area, and your pastor hasn't asked me to speak yet, maybe it's because I didn't let him know I'm back in your area, I'll have to talk to him about that.

Remind me, he says, I know he's listening, he's listening to know, because he wants to know if the title of this is going to be Ravi Zacharias is in Hell, right, he wanted that as the title, isn't that what he wanted?

Yeah, I think so. Maybe that, but different. Yeah, he wanted anything but that, right? Yeah. So, on the, two episodes ago, we had Ray Rhodes, a friend of mine, who had written the book, You're Still Heaven, which is a love story about Susie Spurgeon.

My plan was to announce, you know, it's a love story, I wanted to announce it on the episode that dropped on Valentine's Day, but God had other plans, so, but let me give the reviews, to enter, to get one of the three that were given away, all you had to do was write a review.

However, there was a second thing. You had to email me so that I know who you are, and your address, so that we could send it to you. So, two of the people, I have no idea who you are, but, Dollbasket, I don't know who Dollbasket is, so, Dollbasket, please, if you're hearing this, email me your address at info at strivingforeternity .org, info at strivingforeternity .org, so that you can get your, you know, your copy of the book.

And I didn't say you had to give me a five-star review, but we're glad that you gave us a five-star review. So, five stars, thank you, a thank you review. I am so grateful for Striving for Eternity podcast and for all your hard work that you do, Andrew, to make sure truth is being shared.

Thank you for taking the time to rest and re-evaluate your work so that you will improve your health. God bless all your hard work, and pray that he gives you wisdom and strength. So we thank you for that, and I guess the wisdom was making sure Bud was back, so it's good.

That was wise. The second person who I do not know who they are, so again, email me your address. For Purple Puppet Master, Purple Puppet Master, we need your address, email it to info at strivingforeternity .org, five-star review, factual, faithful, fun, that was their heading.

Andrew never fails to show, sorry, Andrew never fails to share biblical and gospel truth effectively and entertainingly. The rap report has encouraged, inspired, and challenged me at times, filling me with laughter and riddling me with conviction.

In a world full of fluff, it is refreshing to become, quote, wrapped up, unquote, in the solid theology of this podcast. There's a little pun in there too, wow. The last review in this one is, they actually left a review, I mentioned this on my Apologetics Live, and so they left the review there on Apologetics Live, so we're going to count it, but Deadpool Wilson, who has given reviews on the rap report, so maybe that's why this person did it on this one, because I don't think he could do two, but I now know who Deadpool Wilson is, I'm guessing, because the person said they sent the review, they just didn't say their name, so I'm assuming it's the same, since this was the newest review on Apologetics Live, my other show, which I mentioned earlier.

Five-star review, spot-on podcast, I just came across this podcast and have to say it is spot-on. I do have two questions, and so they have some questions for us regarding when Justin was on with Paula White and Kenneth Copeland, and so I'm going to save those questions for Apologetics Live, so you'll have to listen there to get those questions.

But they were very appreciative of the podcast there. So, those are the three reviews that get a copy of yours till heaven. I don't know, bud, if this episode is going to be one that will be referred to as entertaining as much, unfortunately, so let me start with Scripture.

Philippians 3 and the Proper Response to Ravi Zacharias

We're going to be talking today about Ravi Zacharias. There has been a lot of different and mixed, I'm trying to think how best to say this, mixed responses that we've seen with people responding to Ravi Zacharias.

I want to start with Scripture, and then I'm going to quote a friend of mine, but I want to start with this. As we think about Ravi, there have been a lot of different responses that I have seen, a lot of different, a lot of, well, I've seen gloating, let me just put it right out there.

I've seen people who are glad they didn't like Ravi's ministry, they didn't like his style, whatever it is. There's a lot of people that seem like they're happy to report what's going on. Some of it is just discernment bloggers who just love any dirt they can find on anyone, and so I think they're just happy that they have someone that they can expose.

And so to that, I want to address first, because I want us to understand how we should be addressing this. Let me take this from Philippians chapter 3, and I'm going to start in verse 17, and we're going to just talk through this a little bit before we get into the issue.

Brethren, join me in following my example. Now let me just stop there, we're going to kind of chalk talk the Scriptures here, give you a little commentary, but what is Paul saying? He wants to provide an example.

Well, that's an example to you and I as well. So when it comes to the Ravi Zacharias situation, I think this is going to apply. Brethren, join me in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

So in other words, follow Paul and others who have the lifestyle, the pattern that is that of Christ. So Paul's making a distinction here between the groups of people, those who follow Christ, and those who do not.

Those whose destruction, whose end is destruction, whose God is their appetite, whose glory is their shame, who set their mind on earthly things. I'm going to make the case throughout this episode that that is Ravi Zacharias.

We're going to see, if you haven't seen the issues dealing with Ravi, then this will be an eye-opening thing for you. But we are going to see throughout that his appetite, that his God was his appetite.

That his glory now, even in his death, is his shame. His mind was set on earthly things. And so yes, Paul would say that his end is destruction. But there's a key thing I want you to notice in verse 18.

Do not miss this. Because many who say they do discernment, they miss this essential when it comes to discernment. How does Paul say this? For many walk with whom I've told you, and now tell you, even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.

This episode brings us absolutely no joy to have to do. And any discernment blogger that finds joy or rejoices in doing an episode about the issues going on with Ravi Zacharias, shame on you. Repent. Because that's, you fit into verse 19 then.

If your appetite is that you love to rejoice in destroying other Christians, whether Ravi was one or not. Or you love to, those that profess to be Christians. If you rejoice in exposing others and you're not weeping over them, I'll let the cat out of the bag.

You never start with your conclusion, but I will. I find it hard to believe that Ravi Zacharias was a Christian. I will explain that throughout. If Ravi Zacharias, if I'm right, and there wasn't fruit in his life, if he is in hell, that should grieve us, not cause us to rejoice.

We should be weeping. And I'll tell you right now, I have not been enjoying the prep for this show. This has been very grieving to have to deal with.

No, there's a whole population of people affected by him and his ministry that we should be praying for, that have been victimized, that have been abused spiritually and physically. It's just a path of destruction as a result of what I've read through all of this resource material.

It's sad. It's sad. It's sad for those people, but it's sad because it's also a reflection from the world on looking at the church, and this tarnishes the name of Christ, and it tarnishes his church.

It's sad. It is. And we've seen, unfortunately, many people who have been trying to, they've said good things about Ravi, and then when this has come out, they've reevaluated him. But I saw this with someone I know personally, and he made it public, so I'm going to read what he said publicly.

And this is from Ray Comfort, and he put this with a video. He said this, speaking of Ravi, his fall was painful because his name was synonymous with integrity. He was the gentleman's gentleman, the proud mountain of intellectualism to which we pointed as evidence that Christianity isn't just for the fool on a hill.

Yet at the same time, his eloquence concerned me. I often express that concern in self-deprecation, in its self-deprecating way, by saying that I listened to him in awe, but would come away not having a clue what he had just said.

I even addressed my concern in Fear and Trembling in one of my books.". No, that is true. That is Ray. I mean, if you know Ray Comfort, if he's uncomfortable, he does it in a self-deprecating way. That's how he tends to express himself.

He really cares about people, and he's just, he's a very gracious man. And I think that he hit on something, though. It was Ravi's eloquence, his appearance of integrity that makes this so shocking to so many people.

For those that don't know, it has been exposed, and I know that when I mentioned this several months ago on social media, many people were very upset with me for daring to believe that Ravi Zacharias could have engaged in sexual activity outside of the marriage, sexual abuse with many women.

And so that has now been confirmed. And you say, well, that's just some lawyer that's saying it. Well, the lawyers have over 200 images that came from Ravi Zacharias's devices of women that he would ask them to send him naked pictures of themselves, and he would send them naked pictures of himself.

And so you end up seeing that there is physical evidence. There are text messages and emails, and all that is now known, okay? But this is an issue, and if you look at the title of this episode, I'm titling this, and I'm saying that this is the spiritual abuse of Ravi Zacharias.

And why is it spiritual abuse? This is a thing that I think for many people, it's hard for them to understand. That someone who they looked up to, someone that they valued his intellect, he definitely was an intelligent person.

However, there was also some spiritual abuse that went on. Was there physical and sexual abuse? Yes. We will address on Apologetics Live this Thursday night, Dr. Silvestro, Justin, and I, maybe Bud will stay up late and pop in.

We'll see. Gotta do special things to get him to pop in. A 100th anniversary episode wasn't enough for Bud. He only comes in for the really special stuff.

But I do need to get Matt my address in case he wants to send dinner or something. In case he doesn't, yes.

Yeah, there were many people offering to Matt their addresses during the live show. But here's the thing. On Thursday, what I'm going to address with them, I want to address some of the grooming that went on, some of the failure of the board of directors of RZIM, some of the ways that he was able to get away with what he did, and ways of identifying it.

I want to deal with some of that as well here. But what I want to start with in this is to focus on one thing to start, and that is not on the sexual nature of his sin, but go back earlier. Earlier, we end up having something that we see started early on in his ministry.

Very early on, his ministry started with falsehoods, and it was exposed. But because he had built a reputation, because he was so intellectual and eloquent, people didn't want to criticize him. I think because of those three things, his platform, his eloquence, his intellectualism.

One of the things he started doing was saying that he had a doctorate from a university, and that he taught at that university. This is many years ago that I saw an atheist arguing this. I saw the argument that was made on his website to explain it, and it seemed reasonable until.

And this goes back, I want to say, I think it was like 2013, 14 even, that I remember getting involved in this and seeing it. And I think that's when the university itself put out a statement saying he never attended a class there.

He was never employed and never attended a class there. And so, that's the thing. And for those Patreons who are watching, I'll share. Bud, you made it easy for me to get a degree. Oh, Andrew, yeah, man.

You know, there you go. You wrote one up there, and here's one you sent me. It's Universal Life Church Seminary, and you wrote my name on it, Dr. Devinney. That's easy to do, huh? Yeah, yeah. I like the one that you have there in your office there better.

You overwrote your name here and scribbled mine in. But it actually, unfortunately, is easy to do that. I knew of a church in New Jersey where they were trying to give credentials to their pastor, and they were creating a fake doctorate for him.

That's a problem, and this is where it starts. You think that's a problem? It is, and it starts here, though, Bud. It starts with small things. I remember reading a book that was trying to address the Enron situation, if you remember that, just several years ago, where the guy embezzled all this money from the company.

It's interesting because he had said he learned it from Bill Clinton, the president. But I guess that wasn't interesting. He learned the technique of how he embezzled from the company from what he learned from what Bill Clinton was doing with the economy.

I guess if you run a corporation, it's bad. If you are president of the country, it's okay if you're a Democrat. Here's the thing that you end up seeing, though. This book explained that no one wakes up and says, I'm going to embezzle from the company.

It always starts in smaller things. It starts with cheating on SATs to get better scores so you get into a better university, cheating your way through university so you get that degree so that you can claim that you got a degree from a good university with a high GPA.

All the little cheating and then it's the little bit of stealing until you get to embezzling large amounts of money. Well, Ravi Zacharias started by lying about his credentials. The only degree that we know of that he actually earned that we could find is a bachelor's degree, a four-year bachelor's degree.

The other degrees he had that he claimed were honorary degrees and not earned. Now, if you have an honorary doctorate, can you claim that you're a doctor? Well, yes, you can. So there's some atheists who say that he shouldn't be called doctor.

Now, I know that many of those places, I think, are now removing those doctorates because a lot of them gave it to him for integrity and, well, they're realizing he lacked some of that. But I want to start off by saying that this starts off with small things.

But the thing I want to focus in on, I want to get to some of the issues that happened with Ravi. We're going to have a lot of links in the show notes here for you to look at so you can check for yourself, including one of the things I want you to look at is the report of independent investigation into sexual misconduct of Ravi Zacharias.

I encourage you to look at that. The other thing we're going to focus on is the statement put out by Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. They were responding to this. There's an article, they put out, the board of directors there have an open letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the investigation of Ravi Zacharias.

I'll also be referring to an article that was in Christianity Today. Ravi Zacharias hid hundreds of pictures of women, abuse during massages, and a rape allegation. And so we want to deal with some of that today.

Now, I will admit there's a lot here in this independent investigation, Bud, you know we talked about this. There's a lot in here we cannot discuss as Christians. It literally is just too inappropriate.

Yeah. It seems that he had back issues and needed massaging. Some people would say that having a massage, a man having a massage by a woman, is inappropriate. Okay, I would say that that is a gray area.

That's an area where there could be the look of impropriety. We look at men like Jeffrey Epstein and what he was doing. These people who say they need a massage every day or several times a day, I think that becomes just an indicator that maybe there's something wrong going on.

There are, as I've tried to do some asking of questions and things, it seems that within the arena, I guess, of massages, there are people who go get a massage fully naked and those who are at least wearing something.

And obviously for massages, they have to work on massaging. Most people have at least their shirt off and shorts. So what you see with Robbie is he went completely naked. Why is that an issue? From what I have been told, I don't have first-hand experience with this, but from what I'm told, that is an indicator to some massage therapists that you want more than just a massage.

So can a Christian get a massage? Well, I would say yes, but make sure you at least have shorts or something else on. So, but it seemed that Robbie did more than just that. He would, while being massaged, he would pull the cover off.

At least that's what the report said, that the massage therapist would cover the person and he would pull it off so that they could see everything. They would cover it back up. He would be being completely uncovered, touching himself in areas and exposing himself to women.

He would be touching them, things like that. He would do other things that I cannot describe on the show, all in front of women that are not his wife. Now, I talked to one of my friends and he had said that what he thinks the way they would explain this away was that this is just part of Indian culture.

Indian culture would have multiple wives, and we're going to get to that in a quote that is from this, these articles. There are some massage therapists that said that this, it was a normal massage, but not unfortunately all of them.

Now, there's some things we're going to get to with how these people ended up here in America, because some of them were not from America. But, Bud, you had a quote that you thought interesting in this article with the fact of his international travel.

Now, Ravi Zacharias Ministries, part of the integrity that people saw with them is that they had strict policies that he had put in place. And as one of these articles said, because he put them in place, he also knew the ways around them.

But could you read those two paragraphs that you had that you thought was of interest with the way he traveled?

Yeah, because it was not merely, I'm going to leave the office and go down to a massage parlor that I own. This revealed that when he would travel, he had a personal masseuse travel with him. So, this comes from the Miller and Martin Independent Investigation, which was done at the request of the RZM Ministries.

But here it is, quote, Mr. Zacharias spent much of the year on the road and typically had at least one male RZM staff member travel with him. These travel assistants provided the appearance of accountability.

So, Mr. Zacharias could say he did not travel alone and was never alone with a woman. Indeed, all of the travel assistants we interviewed said that they never observed anything improper. Most of them were aware, however, that Mr. Zacharias had a massage therapist who was often with him to provide treatments during his travels.

Several RZM staff reported to us that they were concerned about Mr. Zacharias traveling with a personal masseuse, not because they feared actual impropriety, but because they feared the appearance of impropriety.

A high-level RZM staff member expressed concerns to Mr. Zacharias about it and encouraged him to stop traveling with her. In response, Mr. Zacharias grew angry and barely spoke to the staff member for a long period of time.

He was effectively, quote, sent to Siberia, unquote, as another staff member recalled. Their relationship never fully recovered.

Now, there's several things I find of interest here. First off, so he's traveling with another male companion so that it looks like he's not traveling alone, things like that, but yet he has a female masseuse.

The report also mentioned the fact that even when he didn't travel with a female masseuse, that he would get massages at the hotel room in his room, obviously alone. So the fact that he traveled with a male doesn't mean he didn't make other opportunities available, that he would be alone with a female masseuse.

Now, there's another thing in that that I also want to pick up because this is part of where you go down this road. Ravi Zacharias traveled most of the year, and right there's the problem. You know, this was a change we made at Striving for Eternity.

I used to be out on the road 48 to 50 weeks a year traveling, speaking at churches. I had no, no, no accountability in a local church. Why? Because I wasn't part of one. Oh yeah, I showed up for Resurrection Sunday and Christmas, the two days no one has you come and speak at their church.

And that was really, that was about it. Every other week, I was out at someone else's church. So did I really get to know the people? No, I had the accountability of my board of directors, but not the accountability that's necessary.

And so we made a decision very early on, I think it was the second year of ministry, that we made a change. As I got to know other people who do what I do, traveling and speaking, and I saw them and realized they had no church accountability.

And I watched their life and I'd see these guys, people you know, people whose names you would know, people like Ravi Zacharias, who you see failure because their pride got the best of them because they don't have anyone in their church telling them no.

They have no one on their board telling them no. As you saw in this quote, you have someone that says no and he's put to Siberia. So this is the thing that's necessary. We ended up making a decision as Striving Fraternity, I am to be in my local church half of the year, whether it's two weekends out of a month or what, it doesn't matter.

But I am not allowed to travel for more than half the year. And that's why sometimes we have to say no to people, even though like, well, I don't see it on your calendar, you're free. That is, but we filled up because my board of directors, and it was by my request, put a requirement that restricts me and every speaker at Striving Fraternity to speak no more than half of a year.

And it can't be six months on and six months off. But still the point being, we have to be part of a local church. One of the other things we did at Striving Fraternity is you actually can't get on the board of Striving Fraternity without displaying a willingness to correct even me.

We do not want anyone on the board that's not willing to correct anyone else if they see something that is concerning. That's two things we did early on. Obviously, Ravi Zacharias did not. He puts up the appearance of integrity without the real measures to make sure it's in place.

In fact, we at Striving Fraternity, and we'll address this in more detail on Thursday, but we had a young lady who worked for us and would travel to the different events with us so that she would be there to run the book table and things like that.

She's out of New York, I'm out of New Jersey. We would fly out of New York. And so a lot of times we thought at first, most convenient, book the tickets together so we're on the same flights, easier for people to pick us up.

We changed that. We not only, we wouldn't fly on the same flights, we actually, the board decided, no, don't even land at the same time. So we're not even taking off or landing. So we're not in the airport alone even together.

So that was a policy that ended up changing as well. Why? Just to protect from even a possibility. Now, granted, the young woman was, you know, more like a daughter, not quite old enough to be her father, but close enough.

And so, but the issue is, this is where Ravi falls short. He allowed for opportunities by bringing these women with him. It looks like there's integrity, but what you see is he actually, he made a way to feed his appetite.

He made a way, he made the desires of his heart. He's satisfied. Now, here's what I want to get to, but actually I should let you, anything else you want to address with any of that?

No, no. I mean, I think you've, you've made the point. You can have the appearance of integrity, but in this case from the report, it shows that even when he was confronted and we don't know the, you know, the tone of that confrontation, but he grew angry.

I mean, that's what the report says. Well, that doesn't speak to integrity. That speaks to deceit and concealment. We don't like our sin confronted, but that's the point of discipline in the church because you want to uncover your sin.

You want to repent of sin and you want to pursue holiness and righteousness. If you've created an environment in which that can't happen, what's your motive?

Spiritual Abuse, Image Management, and Control

Well, and so that's part of the spiritual abuse that I want to get to, and I was going to get to it later, but you brought it up now. So let's talk about it because here's the thing that you end up seeing.

I want this to be broader than just Ravi Zacharias. There are many people, I've talked to many people throughout a week who are in churches where there's spiritual abuse. One of the indicators of spiritual abuse is when you go to a pastor or somebody and you correct them, you try to correct them, especially if you bring scripture, and they get angry.

They start to do damage control. They start to attack you and your character. That is the evidence of someone that is doing spiritual abuse. That's an evidence of pride in someone when they have to protect themselves, protect their reputation, protect their image, and you're going to see that in the next quote I'm going to give you, how Ravi did that.

But there's many who do this where their reputation, their image is far more important than your correction. That's not biblical. Paul in Acts commended the Bereans for checking what he said against scripture.

He said that's something to be commended, not something to be abused. One of the things you see as far as the spiritual abuse of Ravi Zacharias here is that when corrected, he didn't receive it. There seems to be reports from people who worked at the ministry that said that they were warned not to go against the Zacharias family.

I think, Bud, you may have, I don't know if you have that quote ready. Yeah, I'm flipping through it. While you get there, I'll set it up. Just let me know when you get there. So what you see is you'll see in this basically the environment that they will set up so that nobody can hurt the platform.

Now, notice what this is all going to be about. It's not about God and His glory. It is about the platform they're building, the money they're bringing in, ultimately. They're going to say it's about the souls, but if you really cared about people's souls, you would not be having a ministry where you're using it to satisfy your own appetites and desires.

One of the things that we ended up seeing through this report is that Ravi Zacharias opened two spas, massage parlors, and in those massage parlors, we ended up seeing that he would bring in people from other countries.

He would find these masseuses in Bangladesh or wherever that he went to other countries. He'd bring them over to America, and they would work in a massage parlor. Now, he opened a massage parlor that was run by his own daughter, Naomi.