The Flesh and the Spirit — Dennis Kinlaw

Abraham’s Two Sons and the Two Covenants

Chapter 4 of Paul's Galatian Letter, reading from verse 22,. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves. This is Hagar. Now, Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children. Break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains, because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.

Now you brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time, the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say?

Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son. Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Prayer for Understanding God’s Word

Let's bow our heads again for a moment of prayer. Lord Jesus, we thank you for giving to us your Word. We know that apart from yourself, you've never given us a more priceless treasure, and we want to understand it.

But to understand it, we need your Spirit to help us. And we would like to ask you tonight to give him to us to quicken our minds and hearts to where we can understand your ways and think your thoughts.

And we will give you praise through Christ our Lord. Amen. I'm going to have to teach a course at Asbury Theological Seminary this fall, filling in for someone else in Old Testament theology. And as a result of that, I've been trying to get myself ready to do something that I haven't done for about 11 years, and the whole field has changed in that time.

So I've gone back and began working my way back through a portion of the Old Testament. One of the things that I've done has been to try to work my way back through the book of Genesis. And as I have, I've found it extremely interesting.

I don't know how many times I've been through Genesis before because I'm 71 years of age and I started reading the thing seriously when I was 13, so you can figure. But it's interesting to me the things that I see now as I read it I've never seen before.

Now some of the things I will say to you are old hat to you too, but just let me go through. Isn't it interesting that this is a seed plot for the whole Bible? And at that time, what you get in that book is basically the story of certain people.

You get the story of Adam and Eve, you get the story of Noah, you get the story of Abraham, you get the story of Isaac, you get the story of Jacob, and you get the story of Joseph, and that's all there is to the book of Genesis.

Genesis Before the Institutions of Biblical Religion

Now what is more significant to me is that in that period of human history there was no church. And the people who lived in that day had no Bible. And the people who lived in that day had no church ritual or liturgy.

And they had no hymn book. They'd never been to communion, didn't know anything about baptism. They were a people without any of the things that mark religion for you and me in the sense of biblical Christianity.

Well let me tell you the astounding, one of the more astounding things to me is they didn't even know the Ten Commandments. Because they hadn't been spoken yet. There was no moral spiritual law as we know it.

And there's no discussion in the book of Genesis about sin. Now we know that the world was evil and so the judgment came, but there's no discussion of what the sins were particularly. And in the life of Abraham, who is the model for us all, there's no discussion of the sins from which he was saved.

But let me really blow your mind. In the book of Genesis there's no discussion of life after death. Can you feature presenting the gospel without talking about the eternal consequences of sin? But what catches me the most is that Abraham in the New Testament is the model for justification by faith.

And we use that reformed language and biblical language to describe becoming a Christian. And he's the example for us all. Paul in Romans and Galatians, the writer of the book of Hebrews, James, none of these guys pick up the later.

They don't pick up Peter as an example or one of the apostles. They don't even pick up John the Baptist, nor Isaiah, nor David, nor even Moses. But the model for us all is Abraham. Goes all the way back to the first.

Abraham’s Walk With God

Now, what is it that's most significant in Abraham's life? The main thing is we're told he walked with God. You remember he lived in Ur of the Chaldees and God came to him and said, I want you to go on a long journey with me.

And he said, Lord, where are we going? And the Lord said, that's my problem, not yours. And Abraham said, I'd be a lot more comfortable if you'd tell me where we were going and what it was going to be like.

And the Lord said, no, I'm not going to tell you why we're going or where we're going or what you're going to find. All I'm going to tell you is whom you're going with. Now, I wish I knew how to preach that right, because, you know, that's the essence of the Christian.

That's the essence of Christianity. More than anything else, the essence of it is you get him and you walk with him. And Abraham is picked out as the model for us all. But do you know there is a story in Abraham's life that I've always regretted being there?

It's really a miserable story. You remember how God came to Abraham and said, you're going to have a son. Out of that son will come a family. Out of that family will come a nation. In that nation there will be kings.

You will have royalty and your descendants. And to that nation I will give a piece of real estate. I'll give a land that will be yours, the promised land. And through your seed, your descendants, I will give a blessing to all the peoples of the earth.

Now, that promise was given to Abraham. And so Abraham began to walk with him in the hope that that promise would be fulfilled. Now, he was 75 when God said to him, you're going to have a son. And Sarah was 65.

And I'm sure Abraham and Sarah had some interesting conversations about that. And I can hear them saying, how's he going to pull this? I hope Abraham or Sarah, one looked at the other and said, well, he's the one that put the woman's reproductive system together.

He's the one that turns the clock on when a woman can and turns it off when she can't. And I guess he can turn on one where it's never worked. And so anyway, they believed and they left their home, their country.

They left their social position, their securities, and they went out with the Lord to walk with him. And ten years passed. Can you imagine the breakfast table conversations and the suppertime and bedtime conversations between Abraham and Sarah?

And Sarah would get antsy one day and another day it would be Abraham. And Sarah would say, I'm 70, no baby. Abraham would say, yeah, I'm 75 with no child. I'm 85 with no child. And you can imagine their discussion.

Abe said, did I hear him right? Sarah said, that's my question. Did you hear him right? Did we make a mistake in understanding? And then one day they began a discussion. And Sarah said, you know, I think we're going to have to help him out because nothing's happened and it's been a whole decade.

I'm 85, they've been 85, she's 75. And so Sarah says, I've got a slave girl named Hagar. Maybe God meant to give you a son through somebody else and we'll help him out. She says, you take Hagar and sleep with her and let's see if we can help God fulfill his promise that way.

And so the first great man and the model for us all slept with his wife's slave girl and she got pregnant. And when she got pregnant, she was elated. And it wasn't long until she began saying, you know, I can do something my mistress can't do.

That woman may be married to him, but I'm the one that's going to give him a son. And she began to think more highly of herself. And as she did, she began to feel negatively and contemptuously against Sarah.

Hagar, Ishmael, and the Failure of Human Effort

Now this is a story that I wish all of that up to now about Hagar, I wish it weren't in there. But wait, Sarah goes to Abraham and said, she's contemptuous of me and I think something has to be done about it.

And he said, well, what would you suggest? She said, I'd suggest you boot her out. And so Abe said, okay, boot her out. And so the father of the faithful, in collaboration with his wife, booted out the woman who was going to give the father of the faithful a child.

And so she was excluded from the camp. There's a horrible scene where they're away and they don't have food and the baby is crying, of course. And the mother knows the baby's going to die, knows she could die.

And so she lays the baby under one bush and goes as far away as she can get to get the sound of the crying out of her ears, which you can still see. And there she is. And the father of the faithful was a part of that miserable scene.

And then you'll remember God came and said, Hagar, I will take care of you and take care of your son. Now, you know, I've often wondered why that story was included. Wouldn't Genesis be nicer if you didn't have that?

So I got to thinking about why it was there. I read this thing in Galatians and I decided it may be one of the most significant, one of the most valuable chapters in the book of Genesis. One of the things that's astounding to me is that the passages I used to like to skip over, now I find extremely interesting.

So if you've got any passages in the Bible that bore you, just wait a while. Sooner or later they'll come alive and you'll know why they're there. This is one that just recently, for the first time, came alive for me.

Now, let me tell you why I think it's there. It suddenly dawned on me not too long ago that everything that God promised Abraham, he got through Hagar except a Savior. I'd never thought of that. Through Hagar, the slave girl, he got a son named Ishmael.

And you know what Ishmael means? Ishmael means the Lord has, God has heard. Ishma, Yishma, is he heard? And the L part is the name of God, the word for God. God has heard. So he was named as if he were an answer to prayer.

So he got a son. That son had 12 sons. We don't know how many daughters, but the family lines were predominantly through the sons, so he had 12 sons. So he got a family through that son. He got nations through that son, among whom there were kings.

And you know who owns most of the real estate in the Middle East today? It isn't the sons of Isaac. Do you know Abraham got everything that God promised him through Hagar except for Jesus? And God said, this is not the one.

It is in the next chapter that God comes to Abraham and says, Sarah is the one that's going to have the child through whom the blessing and the salvation is going to come. Now let me see if I can make plain what has become very impressive to me.

The Flesh and the Spirit in Romans and Galatians

I think there, probably better than anywhere else in the Scripture, you have a clear illustration of the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. Do you know how oftentimes in the New Testament you have a contrast between the flesh and the Spirit?

Read the book of Romans. You'll find it through, but especially in chapter 8. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Now the older translations say, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now you'll find that line is not in the more modern translation. But it doesn't matter whether it's in the more modern translations or not. You read the rest of that chapter and the next 10 verses, the next 12, 14 verses, you know what they are?

A contrast between the flesh and the Spirit. So whoever put that there was giving you a summation of what the most of chapter 8 of the book of Romans is about. There are two ways you can live. One, you can live in the flesh, and the other one is you can live in the Spirit.

Now you get that passage in chapter 4 of Galatians that I read about Hagar and Sarah. But if you turn to the 5th chapter and start with verse 16, you will find that Paul is saying in the Galatian letter, there are two ways you can live.

One is you can live in the flesh, and the other is that you can live in the Spirit. And if you live in the flesh, you'll die. And if you live in the Spirit, you'll live. And you get that horrible list of everything from adultery to all sorts of evils down to dissension and strife and jealousy and envy and drunkenness and orgies and all that list.

They are the fruit. They are the works of the flesh. And then you get the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, all of that. And you get the two contrasted.

Now, I think the Hagar story is there at the beginning of the Bible to get laid down the principle that is developed very fully later in the Scripture, there are two ways I can live. One is I can live in the flesh, and the other is that I can live in the Spirit.

The one is what I can do, and the other is what God can do and only God can do. Now, you may not have noticed it. I wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't been looking at it a good bit. But in the Galatian passage, when he talks about the two women, Hagar and Sarah, and the two covenants, Sinai and the current Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem, and Sinai and Calvary, when he talks about the two covenants, he says that Ishmael is the son according to the ordinary way.

And the ordinary way, that's the way every child comes. But Isaac is called the child of promise. So you get a contrast between the ordinary way and the child of promise. And do you know, I now think I know why Abraham had to wait 25 years to get him.

I think God's just letting him know, you can't do it. You know, if the promise had come when he was 75 and when he was 76, she delivered, Abraham would have said, no problem. One of the things I found in the Old Testament is that one of the most common themes in the Old Testament is that we're supposed to wait.

And that's the thing I hate to do the most. You know, I want God to tell me today and have it done before night. But the Old Testament, one of the greatest themes is wait. I've wondered what the value is.

You know what I think it is? It's to let me know very clearly what I can do and what I can't do. What he can do and what no way you and I can do it. You see, one of the themes of the Old Testament is, and you will never appreciate the richness of the New Testament if you do not see it clearly in the Old Testament, there is no salvation except in God.

There is nothing any human being ever does that has any saving significance. If there is anything that ever occurs that has saving significance, it's when he comes on the scene. You see, it's the child of promise.

You and I can't do it. So we have to wait for him. And then when he does it, we say, this is what we've been looking for. But when you and I say, we better help him out. And always beware the person in Christian circles who say, we've got to do something.

Watch it. Because when we begin to do it, you can count on it. It will be sterile as sin. So I think the story is given there to give us the contrast between the flesh and the spirit to let us know there are certain things we can do.

We can produce the Ishmael. But only God can produce the line that has a saving power within it. And so Sarah was sterile, barren. And it's interesting that Rebecca was. And it's interesting that Mary was a virgin.

And those things go together. The Savior comes by divine activity and not by human activity. Now he needs humans to accomplish it, which brings us to this. What's wrong with the flesh? You read the New Testament and it says the flesh is the way of death and it gives you all of these horrible things that are the works of the flesh.

But do you know that biblically the concept of the flesh is that it's good? Because who made it? God made it. God made Hagar. God made her reproductive system. God gave them Ishmael. Do you know that the flesh is good?

Because God made it. But what's being said is that something good when it is separated from God, something good when it is separated from God and from his control becomes a substitute for the real thing.

And if it's a substitute, it is a wrong way. It is a dead end street. It is a way to destruction instead of a way to life. Now the place where it began to come home to me is, do you know the expression that we use?

And you know I even hesitate to use it because I sort of cringe when I use it. Do you know what we talk about when we said one person has a carnal knowledge of another? It's a very distasteful concept, isn't it?

Because instantly you think of something wrong. You think of something that is a violation of something sacred. And it is a violation of somebody's personhood, carnal knowledge. That word carnal speaks of something degraded and something that we recoil from.

But do you know the same C-A-R-N that you've got in carnal, which is a Latin word for flesh, is the word that is in the term that we use when we speak about Christ, the incarnate Son of God. The C-A-R-N in the incarnate Son of God or in the incarnation is the same Latin word as you've got in the C-A-R-N of carnal knowledge.

One is degraded and the other is our salvation. Now it's interesting that God couldn't save from heaven. If he could, you wouldn't have needed Bethlehem. And it's interesting that God couldn't save in God.

God had to get into the flesh to save us because the Savior's got marks in his body, and when we meet him, he'll have a body. So you've got to recognize that when God made the flesh, he made it good. But you see, when it gets separated from God, do you know what the potential is?

There is nothing in hell itself that isn't potentially in you or me when we're separated from God. There is nothing in hell that is not potentially in me if you let me get separated from God and live away from him long enough.

Now, I think that's the kind of thing that God is trying to get pointed out, the foundations laid for in the 16th chapter of the book of Genesis, which is the fifth chapter in the story of Abraham. You know, it begins in 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or wait a minute, that's the 12, 13, 14, 15, yeah, it's the fifth chapter in the Abraham story.

Bang, he's trying to get it clear that when we are without God, when we get separated, you get Adam and Eve out of the garden and the next thing you get is Cain and Abel. Okay, so there it is to let us see the flesh cannot give us what we need.

If we're saved, it's going to have to come from him. Now, let me mention four characteristics of the flesh. The first one is, we've already mentioned it, it's sterile. It's the ordinary way. It's not the way of promise and it cannot produce salvation.

The Sterility of the Flesh and Justification by Faith

Now, you know, that's hard for us to learn because we keep trying to think we can do it. You read the life of Martin Luther and until that moment of illumination came when he saw that we were to be justified by faith, he was as religious as anybody in the world.

He was doing everything the church told him to do, but there was no new life in him. And one day he realized the just are to live by faith, not by human works. And he looked up and said, if I'm ever saved, you're going to have to do it.

And a transformation took place. Now, Methodists, you Presbyterians will forgive me for a minute, but Methodists especially ought to understand that, but we don't. We don't. You read the life of Wesley and you'll remember that he was 35 years of age.

He'd grown up in one of the most devout homes that England ever had. His mother was one of the godliest women that ever lived. He had the training in the church and he had the best education at Oxford you could get.

He was ordained in the Anglican clergy and he had been a missionary. And he was 35 years of age and he had come to the end of himself. And so one night he went to, of all things, for an Anglican established church.

He went to a disestablished, you know, he went to one of these groups that the Anglicans looked down their nose at. And it's interesting, God usually has to do that kind of thing with us. And so he went to this Moravian meeting, you know, and somebody was reading Luther's Preface to the Book of Romans.

And he said,. Suddenly I felt my heart strangely warmed and felt that God, for Christ's sake, had forgiven me my sins, not because of anything I had done, but because of what Christ did for me. You see, the ordinary way is what we can do.

The way of promise is what he can do. He felt that God, for Christ's sake, not because of what I had done, had forgiven me of my sins, even mine, and I had been set free from the law of sin and of death.

And the interesting thing is, he not only tells you what year it was, 1738, he not only tells you what month it was, it was in May, and he not only tells you what day it was, it was the 24th, the funny thing is, he tells you what time of day.

It was about a quarter before nine. It was about 25 minutes from now. At about a quarter before nine. You know, I expect when Sarah was 90 years of age and when she got pregnant, she knew it. Now, you know, we can't produce it.

Only he can produce it. I grew up in a Methodist church. My mother and father were devout. I don't ever remember a day that I didn't see my father reading the Bible. He was a lawyer. When I was in high school, I'd come in earlier than I would have otherwise because he'd get up in the middle of the night, and what'd he do?

Read the Bible. And if I came in too late, he was sitting there reading the Bible. That was enough to make me uncomfortable. So I'd come in earlier before he got up. Last night of his life, last time my mother heard his voice, he was quoting Scripture to himself.

I grew up in that kind of home. I remember when I was 12, my mother and father, who wanted me to find Christ, took me to a Baptist church, to a Baptist revival, and I went forward. I can remember going home that night, looking out the back window of a Model A Ford, feeling glad that I had done that.

But do you know two weeks later, I wasn't a bit different than I'd been two weeks before? And then six months later, I found myself in a Bible class in a camp, and a lady looked at me and said to me, they called her Mother Clark.

Dennis, do you know Christ? I said, oh, no. If it had been my mother, I'd have lied to her. If it had been my Sunday school teacher or my pastor, I'd have lied to them. But I was away from home. Goodness of God.

She was a stranger, but I'd heard her teach three days, and something inside me said she's real and said you can trust her. I said, oh, no. She said, wouldn't you like to be? I said, well, of course. You know, I don't remember a thing she said in her prayer.

I don't remember a thing I prayed. But, you know, when we got up off our knees, I was regenerated. And the significant thing was not something I did. It was something he did. I tried it all. I was baptized, took communion, did it all, you know.

But he did it. The flesh, there is a sterility in it. Now, don't kick it because it just can't do it. The salvation is in God. It's not in us. Now, the second thing is that the flesh, if you do not have it touched by the Spirit, becomes enslaving because it won't let you break out.

The Flesh as Enslavement

Let me give you a story, an illustration I've never forgotten. We, Elsie and I, had a pastor for 22 years named David Seamans. David Seamans, one of the greatest preachers I ever heard. I don't ever remember really being bored in a Sunday service in 22 years.

And I'm not the kind that you entertain easily. My mind can wander. You know, I'm the kind that can count every board in the ceiling and every light and all the rest of that stuff. I do not ever remember a boring Sunday with David Seamans.

But in 1970, the revival broke out at Asbury. David and I had been in college together with Dee Snider and Mark when we were at Asbury. And the Spirit came on Tuesday morning. Hughes Auditorium was full of people for the next eight days.

On Saturday night, I'd gone home for a few minutes and had come back to Hughes and the place was jammed. And I looked for a seat and the only place I could find a seat was down on the second row from the front on the left.

And when I got there, I saw the empty seats. And when I got down there, there was David on about the third seat and the first two seats were empty. So I walked in and we sat down side of him. I sat next to David.

I don't know how long we'd been sitting there. Hour? Hour and a half? When suddenly David reached over and grabbed my right arm and began to squeeze it. And I turned and looked at him and his face was red as a beet.

And his eyes were full. And he said, Dennis, I've got to tell somebody. And so we had a little conference right there while everything was going on. He said it was at supper tonight. I was sitting at one end of the table and Helen was sitting at the other.

And my son was sitting on one side, Steve, and my daughter on the other. He said we were about halfway through the meal when Helen looked up and said, I have something I need to say. She said, you know, when we had to come home from India, there were missionaries in India, Methodist missionaries.

When we had to come home from India, we came home in the spring. They had a son who had a club foot. It was going to have to be a whole succession of surgeries. And so they came home in late April or May.

And they came to June. And so they had to have some way to support them. So they agreed to take a Methodist pastorate. And they were assigned to Wilmore. Now, I don't know what you think about Wilmore, but Helen Siemens grew up in Wilmore.

Her father was pastor of Wilmore Methodist Church. And right next door to the parsonage was one of the crankiest old crones you ever met. And there were some other people in town that were not always there.

And Helen Siemens grew up with a deep animosity toward Wilmore. And so now she's a grown woman, returned missionary, and their assignment is Wilmore. So the revival breaks. And she's sitting at her dinner table with her son and daughter and her husband.

And she looks over at her husband and says, Now, David, you know that when we came home from India and when we were assigned to Wilmore, I hated every thought of it. I hated everything about this town.

I hated the town. I hated the church. I hated the college. I hated the seminary. I hated everything here. And she said, Here we were assigned. And she said, We got here. And it didn't get any better. She said, I knew it was wrong to have that kind of attitude.

And she said, I tried to change my attitude. But she said, it didn't work. She said, I went forward in a service to pray about it. That didn't work. She said, I found a sign that said, Expect a Miracle.

And I put it on my desk at the theological seminary where she was the secretary to the dean. And she said, I kept looking at that, Expect a Miracle. But she said, You know, it never came. And she said, Thursday, I was in Hughes Auditorium and a girl came up to me and she said, Mrs. Seamans, I've looked everywhere for your husband.

I cannot find him. I need somebody who will counsel me and pray with me. Will you pray with me? And she said, I didn't want to pray with her. I wasn't in condition to pray with anybody. And she said, I looked desperately around.

I couldn't find you. But she said, I was trapped. And I found myself listening to this girl as she poured out her pain and her guilt and her agony when she said, Suddenly, I saw you, David. And she said, I said to the girl, Hold it just a minute.

And I went running and I got you and brought you. And she said, You sat down and you started dealing with the girl. And then you began to pray. And you got her into the kingdom. And she said, David, while you were getting her in, I got in.

And I want you to know that for the first time, I'm on your team. He shook all over. He said, Dennis, I had to tell somebody. And do you know there was a radical change in her and him and some of the rest of us in that kind of circumstance?

But what fascinated me was she was a preacher's daughter, graduate of Asbury College. She was a Methodist missionary in India. She was a pastor's wife. She didn't want to be that way. But there was no way out until God did something she couldn't do.

And you say, Why did God let her live in that thing so long? Do you know, I think, why he let her live? Until she could learn that she couldn't do it. Because if there's any notion inside me that I can do it, there's no chance of it ever occurring.

I've got to come to the place where I know that what I need, I cannot produce. So there's a bondage in it. And you get trapped in that bondage. Now, there's also a hostility. You remember in the Hagar story, Ishmael story, how Ishmael and Isaac were in conflict with each other?

And do you know the flesh lusts against the spirit and the two are contrary to each other? And they will fight, fight, fight. And you will find it in the church. I remember the president of Asbury College, Dr. Morrison, telling a story when I was young, I never forgot.

The Flesh’s Hostility Toward the Spirit

He was pastor of the First Methodist Church in the capital city of Kentucky in Frankfurt. And it was a society church. He was a very prominent young rising preacher, gifted orator, brilliant speaker. And one day, but he had a great love for the gospel and he preached a very direct, straightforward gospel sermon.

And he said, I noticed the face of the most influential man in the church and said, by the look on his face, I knew I'd have a visitor the next morning. And so he said, at eight o 'clock I was in my study and at eight o 'clock there was a rap on the door.

And I said, come in. And he said, my man came in, just like I expected. And he said, he sat down and said, now, Brother Morrison, we're so glad to have you as a pastor in Frankfurt. And you're such a gifted speaker.

And we're so grateful to have a person of your gifts and so forth. And he bragged on him a little. But he said, now, about that sermon yesterday. And he said, you could feel the animosity inside him because the flesh had been touched.

And the flesh lost against the spirit. That's the reason the only way out is through repentance and death to the flesh, crucifixion. Because it will fight, fight, fight. Who was it that crucified Jesus?

It wasn't the Roman government. It was the chosen people. It was the elect nation. It was the predestined people. The elect nation that did it. It was the temple itself that did it. It was the high priest who had the final word.

Now, there's the hostility there. You'll remember the Roman governor said, let me give you Barabbas. And the church, the fleshly church said, we want Jesus and we want to crucify him. There is no compromise between the two.

And there is no way the two ultimately can live together. Okay. Now, the fourth thing I want to say is that the problem in it is that they're so much alike. Did you know the flesh can simulate almost everything the spirit can do?

The Flesh’s Deceptive Imitation of Spiritual Life

No outsider could have told the difference between what Ishmael looked like and what Isaac looked like, but the hope of the world was in one and it wasn't in the other. And in that day, the best people in the world, you know, they looked at the temple and that was a symbol for God.