Babies Are Still Murdered Here (FILM)

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:17

The first movie we did with you, we didn't really introduce you.

00:23

We just played your second film. Well, you know the story behind that, right? No. Well, two days before you release it,

00:31

I don't even know that I'm in a documentary. And so what had happened was,

00:40

Bobby McCreary, I think it was, he gave me a compliment, you know.

00:46

And it was like out of left field, and I was like, well, Bobby, I appreciate the compliment, but in reference to what?

00:54

He goes, you don't know? I go, know what? He goes, you're in a documentary. And I go, is that right?

01:03

And I had no clue. And that was right after that, both you and John Speed contacted.

01:08

Oh yeah, by the way, we took your servant and we used it as the framework for this documentary.

01:21

And honestly, brother, the fruit that's come from that has just been amazing, just amazing.

02:09

So why don't you start off by telling me kind of what's happened since Babies Are Murdered here.

02:16

So, okay, so all the way back to five years. After the movie happened and everything, just start there.

02:22

The most shocking thing about the release of Babies Are Murdered here when we released it was the fact that the pro -life community wouldn't touch it.

02:31

We released what we thought was an excellent documentary, and we really couldn't get anybody to share it.

02:39

And it was a fight from the beginning to get it out there. Why do you think that is?

02:46

Well, the pro -life movement didn't want it because we were talking about abortion being murder.

02:52

And we were calling it sin. And we were saying that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that you need to bring to bear with the abortive mom.

03:02

And the pro -life movement didn't want us to call it murder. They didn't want us to call it sin.

03:07

And they told us that we shouldn't talk about religion when we're out in front of the clinics. We just didn't know any better but believed that the gospel could actually change people's lives.

03:18

It turns out we were right. It's absolutely fine right there.

03:44

Sure, I'm the director of American Victims of Abortion for the

03:51

National Eye to Life Committee. And that is one of our several outreach programs. It was developed in the early 1980s by women like myself who have been through an abortion experience alongside of sometimes the fathers of aborted children.

04:04

And we are really a public, if you will, public witness to what we know about the experience of abortion from the inside.

04:13

The pro -life movement has a lot of women who are active in it who have had abortions.

04:20

And they very much argue that the mother who got the abortion is also a victim.

04:28

Hey ladies, I'm Jeff. What's your name? Hi, I'm Jensen. Jensen. Bree. And Simone. Alright, great to meet you guys.

04:34

So why are you guys here? I'm more of like it being a woman's choice. I think the choice to have sex is both men and women.

04:42

The choice to carry a child kind of more falls on the woman because the man can totally just leave at any point.

04:49

And if we're going to make abortions illegal and have single women now raising children that maybe they never even wanted to have by themselves or maybe it's hard for them to have that child because of mental illnesses or being raped or something like that.

05:02

So for me it's more of a choice rather than a political viewing and wanting to murder babies, obviously.

05:08

So you mentioned that if a child has to be raised by a single mother or it's disabled that we should be able to kill it.

05:16

We're so advanced in technology and science that we know ahead of time before the baby is even born what conditions they could possibly have.

05:22

So to be able to prevent that ahead of time, especially if you're a low -income family, you're not going to be able to take care of that baby if they come out with any kind of birth defects.

05:28

And there's no government assistance either to help that parent take care of it. So again, but foundationally what you're saying is that if it's disabled and we discover it's disabled then we should kill the disabled children.

05:38

I'm sorry, I meant mental health in the mother, in the parents. People who are just not suitable to be having kids and don't want to have kids for that.

05:47

Okay, I'm going to answer that. Thank you for clarifying that. But it sounds like that's what you were saying. If we discover in the womb through technology that they're going to be disabled or something's wrong, we should be able to kill that child.

05:56

I would say, so it's the thing. I don't think there's no programs to help this parent or these parents out when the baby's born.

06:02

So it's like you're kind of leaving this parent up to like, you have to keep it until it's born and then you've got to figure it out yourself. We're going to be in control of your body until it's born.

06:08

And then once you have it, that's all you. And I think that's kind of an unfair view. I do actually agree with you that we need to make sure that we're caring for women, for mothers and fathers, for children.

06:17

We actually need to. I think we're required and love would require that sort of a thing. But I think foundationally, we're not really talking about that in terms of the abortion discussion because what we're talking about is the argument is if something's wrong with the child in the womb we should be able to kill it.

06:30

And we're saying that if it's raised in poverty, we should be able to kill it. I don't think, so I think that's an extreme way to put it, but I guess like The choice to carry a child, raising children, have that child before the baby's even born.

06:47

We'll take care of that baby. To be having kids and don't want to have kids. We live in a society now where the boy has cried wolf so many times or the boy or the woman has cried victim, victim, victim so many times that nobody can discern any longer what real victimhood is.

07:17

Which is a whole other reason why we need to return to biblical standards so that we can actually have objective categories, standards of law that don't change from 1 o 'clock to 3 o 'clock in the afternoon or from the 15th century to the 21st century.

07:40

Truth and right and wrong don't change with the clock. In my experience,

07:46

I mean my abortion was in the early 80s and I did finally, I had to go to 4 different abortion providers, each one in their turn.

07:52

Planned Parenthood was the place where quite literally they told me that I was not, I was just not thinking clearly. I wasn't capable of thinking clearly because I was pregnant and that I probably ought to just do what my baby's father wanted us to do.

08:04

So my boyfriend, who's not the enemy in this situation because I truly believe a lot of young men are in our generation, the last two generations have been encouraged to think that the manly thing to do in these situations is to A, either step up and say look

08:18

I'll pay for an abortion or B, say whatever you want honey, it's your decision. So you think women are, you can look at him when he answers, but you think women are not necessarily murderers but more victims of this process?

08:34

No one in the pro -life movement has no legitimate, fully recognized and organized pro -life organization, pro -life person that I know, or no right thinking pro -life person has ever intimidated me with the thought of women who have had abortions being murderers.

08:52

I see what you're saying, is murder okay in the womb? And I'm like, I see what you're saying and I don't want to say yes, but I don't want to make that decision.

08:59

But in these circumstances you think we should be able to kill humans in the womb? I think so, yeah. You do?

09:05

Yeah, I think that's what we're here for and that's our choice and that's a choice that we're allowed to make.

09:10

For now. For now. It's like no one's responsible for abortion except the abortion doctors.

09:17

Right, and sometimes not even the abortion doctors. I know what it's like to feel incredibly betrayed by them.

09:24

That's what I saw in her. It depends upon whether it's a private, for -profit practice versus a doctor who volunteers their time at Planned Parenthood.

09:37

We create these separate categories, false categories, to evade personal culpability for personal decision -making.

09:51

The law has always recognized that women are often in a position of enormous pressure from family, from a spouse, from a lover or boyfriend, from an employer.

10:04

Sometimes there's a great fear that you will lose your job if you are pregnant. This is 2017 and yet we routinely still hear about women feeling that in the workplace they will not be able to maintain their position or continue into a different position if they have a child.

10:22

Muhammad is not going to end abortion. Buddha's not going to end abortion. Joseph Smith is not going to end abortion.

10:29

And I hate to say it, but Mary's not going to end abortion. I can't say, I mean,

10:34

I did have some anti -Catholic beliefs and I can't say they came from my parents.

10:40

They came from the church where I grew up, but it was very subtle. So the pastor might say,

10:48

Well, we know that you can't work your way into heaven unlike some religions.

10:56

And, you know, everybody in the congregation is saying, Oh, Catholic, they're talking about Catholics. I just want to walk up to them and say,

11:02

I have the answer for everything on your list that ails you. It's the

11:07

Catholic Church. One of the things about the

11:13

Catholic Church is that it operates largely by tradition rather than by theology.

11:20

And so you can create a culture that cherishes life, large families, all of that, without really having a strong foundation for that theologically so that a skeptical generation can come along and wash away centuries of tradition in a moment.

11:43

So I think that Roman Catholics are very good at creating this culture, but they're very, very poor in establishing that culture on a firm foundation because they don't have the theology for it.

11:59

And as a result, they can have short bursts of public policy victories, but they're not sustainable.

12:10

What makes the victories sustainable inevitably will be the transformation of people's hearts by the power of the gospel.

12:20

That's what changes cultures. What we need is reformation. I can't even barely get out of bed anymore.

13:02

Ladies, my name is

13:08

John. I come down here every day to offer help and help to the ladies that find themselves behind these doors.

13:15

All these people have come here today, not by chance. God has sent us all here today to help you.

13:22

Honestly, I've been able to see over 2 ,000 girls choose life over the last nine years.

13:30

That's not counting the turnaways that didn't talk to us. And God has never let one of them down, not one.

13:41

About helping you out, this place, this is the worst abortion clinic in the country.

13:51

This is a real doctor's office with real lady doctors, real lady nurses. Everything's free.

13:58

If she is pregnant, they'll give her a free ultrasound. They get her free medical help, get her financial help.

14:04

And I'll give you my business card. My church will help you guys with whatever else it is that you need.

14:12

But, yeah, this place, man. Yeah, get her out of here.

14:18

Get her out of here. Well, I appreciate you, sir. I don't see men here very often. Oh, man, no way.

14:27

They're leaving. I'm serious. When I tell you that we can help you, that our church can help you with all the things that you could need,

14:37

I don't want you to think you're alone. You're not alone. I've never seen God let anybody down that put their trust in Him and got out of here.

14:46

Can I pray for you? What's your name? *** Dear Lord Jesus, I lift up *** to you.

14:53

Lord, I thank you that today we get to see a man. It's so rare. And, Lord, I just ask that you would be with him, that you would strengthen his resolve, that you would help him to be the kind of lady or husband that his lady needs.

15:08

And, Lord, I just ask that you would continue to put your hand of blessing on their life and that they would not be proud and that they would call me for anything they need.

15:18

In Jesus' name, amen. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I hope we end up being long friends.

15:25

Honestly. You too. What happened?

15:34

They're out of here. All through the Scriptures it is made plain that the fallenness of man and the love of death go hand in hand.

15:50

There is a way that seems right to a man, the writer of Proverbs says, but its end is the way of death.

15:57

Over and over again, the contrast in the Scriptures is between fallen man, irreligious man, foolish man, and the ways of light and life.

16:13

So what this means is that the pro -life message is really only coherent, consistent, and effective when it is part and parcel of a gospel message.

16:30

The focus on the pro -life movement among young people has never been religiously based, and this is where the media really do lie.

16:36

This is not religion. This is raw, basic, uncontrovertible science.

16:42

What they're doing is they're telling people that basically if you're against abortion, you're forcing your religion on other people.

16:49

When you listen to media coverage from mainstream media networks, it's typically that pro -lifers are driven by religious zeal, that it's a bunch of people who go to church, and that's where they learn the

16:58

Psalms, and then because they've read the Psalms, they decide that babies are worthy of protection. I think that it's really important to point out that it's actually the other way around.

17:07

It is pro -lifers that want a separation of church and state. When it comes to using religion and telling the gospel and stuff as the primary foundation for ending abortion, do you guys want to keep...

17:26

Who's saying that? Oh, no, no, I'm saying, like, you guys don't say that. National Right to Life does not consider itself to be any kind of religious or faith -based organization.

17:38

Now, I would say probably 99 % of our people, our activists, are people of faith, but we realize we are fighting in a secular world that doesn't care.

17:54

You know, a lot of people don't read the Bible. They don't know that God created human life, that He is the creator of life.

18:01

So we do try to work on a scientific basis, human rights basis.

18:07

Certainly faith comes into a lot of what we do, but that's not necessarily the basis for our arguments.

18:14

It's not unusual to run into people who, of all stripes in the pro -life movement, particularly through National Right to Life, it's one of the most inclusive and broad -spectrum organizations to exist in the history of the

18:28

United States because it recognizes that this question is actually the ultimate human rights question.

18:33

We are not a sectarian organization. We do not generally address this issue, whether it's abortion or euthanasia or assisted suicide or any of the spectrum issues that deal with life questions.

18:44

We don't generally address it from a religious perspective because in the same room at National Right to Life, one might have a

18:51

Christian, a Jew, an agnostic, an atheist, a Catholic.

18:56

You will have a variety of people because as a human rights issue, as the elemental human rights issue of all time, everyone should be engaged in this conversation.

19:07

Everyone should be able to identify with a comprehension that these actions end innocent human lives.

19:14

So as an argument towards justice, ultimate perfect justice, we have to stand focused on this argument from the scientific perspective because that is a unifier.

19:27

And that has proven to be one of the reasons why what we do at National Right to Life is so successful because anybody from anywhere can say,

19:35

I get that. I can comprehend that. Now let's talk about what comes next. Throughout the scriptures, you can see that God has always brought about the greatest transformation to glorify himself through the smallest numbers.

19:50

And the pro -life movement has had the mindset over the last 40 years that we need the largest numbers.

19:57

We need this ecumenicalism. We need to sort of approach this with neutrality. We need to minimize the

20:03

Christian language. Not be explicit. Take a backdoor approach. Why? Because we need the largest amount of people to come alongside us together.

20:14

So let's change the narrative. Let's change the message. Let's not use explicitly

20:19

Christian terminology. Why? Because we need to be this huge army. And there was actually an example in scripture where God tells somebody, your army is too big.

20:30

God wants to glorify himself through the truth. And he does it at times with only 11 very confused disciples.

20:39

There are also many who see this, not from a religious perspective, but simply a scientific perspective.

20:45

Maybe even a moral conviction against killing innocent life. And so the pro -life movement is big.

20:50

We welcome everyone who acknowledges this pre -born life as innocent and worthy of society's protection to join us.

20:58

When pro -lifers try to approach this from any other foundation than the word of God and scripture and how

21:05

God calls us to fight this and even define our terms and our categories when we come to this issue, you end up excluding the exclusivity of the gospel from the way that you fight because you have to satisfy and keep happy all of these different worldviews and people that are involved in this fight in your effort, in the pro -life movement's effort to bring all these different groups in to try to link arms with them and fight alongside them against this juggernaut of abortion, it ends up softening and weakening like the weapons of our warfare.

21:51

So you went to make a movie and church would break out. Yeah, well, that's the funny thing. We had Catholics, Evangelicals, we had priests, pastors from all over the country, rabbis.

22:00

I mean, it was an amazing thing. The one thing that everybody from every denomination understood, we even had atheists praying,

22:07

I don't know how that works, but is that this is an issue that crosses those lines.

22:14

When the pro -life movement by and large, like as a collective unit in the sense of even bringing into the fold secular pro -life groups that don't even believe in God, that don't have any basis for value or dignity of human life or worth or anything like that, when we bring these types of groups together, we're really just spinning our wheels.

22:43

This fight only makes sense. It only has meaning if we have the

22:49

Bible at our feet defining what a human being is, why it's wrong to take their life, why it's wrong to actually commit abortion, how does

22:59

God define it, and what's the statute or precept or penalty that needs to be brought in in order to bring justice for when that violation of His law happens, and then ultimately what the solution is.

23:13

You can't have that when you're bringing all of these different groups together and just trying to have a seat at the table for each one of them.

23:25

Theologically, the pro -life movement is comprised of Roman Catholics that differ from us on the gospel to begin with.

23:36

They just want us all to be at peace, and they want big numbers to end it, and what it really takes isn't big numbers.

23:43

What it really takes is people being faithful, local churches deciding that they're going to do something rather than just vote, rather than just go to a

23:52

March for Life, rather than give $5 to a pro -life lobbyist. The one person where this hit and resonated in his soul was

24:04

Pastor Jeff Durbin. So as time went on, we just started saving children, preaching the gospel at the abortion clinic, and then on Apology Air Radio, we would just mention it.

24:16

We would do our show, and we'd mention, oh, by the way, we saved a baby this Saturday, or, you know, this happened, we held this baby, or whatever the case was, we were just talking about it on the radio show.

24:25

So what started to happen is Christians across the country in God's providence and honestly organically just started hearing it, pastors were hearing it, and they started just with their churches going out and saving children and preaching the gospel.

24:39

So this movement began organically out of all of those events, and we saw that there was a moment in Oklahoma where they had an opportunity to criminalize abortion.

24:53

And we had friends that were there, people that were there, and we heard that one of the people that was stopping a bill that would criminalize abortion in Oklahoma with a predominantly pro -life legislature, one of the people responsible for stopping it was

25:06

Tony Lounger. He was the vice president of National Right to Life, one of the largest pro -life organizations on the planet, actually.

25:14

So he was at the legislature that day, and we got a message through to him and asked him if he'd be on the program with us to talk about what was happening in Oklahoma.

25:22

He agreed. And so we had him on the program, and I was talking to Tony Lounger for a little while, and I wanted to let him tell his story.

25:32

I wanted him to explain from the national pro -life movement perspective what was their methodology, what was their foundation, and what you can hear in that interview, and it's available for the world to listen to, is

25:45

Tony Lounger, again, the vice president of one of the largest pro -life organizations on the planet, talking very candidly about the fact that they want to take a backdoor approach in the pro -life issue.

25:58

They don't want to make it about Jesus and repentance and the gospel. They want to not use words like murder, those sorts of things.

26:06

And so what you can hear in that interview is one of these leaders of the pro -life movement essentially saying, this is not a

26:12

Christian movement. It's not Christian. Because again, I'm fairly new to this fight.

26:19

I mean, I've obviously been pro -life since I've been a believer. It's interesting for me to kind of understand how you guys operate and how you guys think we should go about doing this more effectively.

26:29

So two questions I think people would want to know is number one, and it's a tough one, and so I'd love to hear how you feel about this, are women who have abortions murderers?

26:44

We do not believe that a woman who has an abortion should be prosecuted.

26:50

Well, that helps a lot, Tony. So we would say the abortionist is a, we would say that's murder. We want to have him prosecuted for murder, but the woman, not so much.

26:59

We don't want to go that route. Right. We don't believe that the woman should be prosecuted.

27:07

Okay. So, okay. And I, you know, maybe it's a fine point, but we would not say the abortionist ought to be prosecuted for murder.

27:16

We would say the abortionist ought to be prosecuted for killing the unborn child or for homicide.

27:23

But murder is a, murder is a technical term that depends on lots of circumstances.

27:31

It was Tony Lowinger. That day is the day where I was interviewing him. You and Luke were like, that's it.

27:40

Do you remember that? I was in here talking to Tony Lowinger, and we heard him saying backdoor approach, like don't use

27:47

God's word. And that's when you guys, we all said we have to do it. EndAbortionNow came out of that.

27:57

EndAbortionNow .com was a website where we would have local churches governed by pastors coordinating together with a very focused, consistent message on the word of God, on the gospel, preaching the gospel in the context of abortion.

28:14

We launched EndAbortionNow .com and we sent off to so many churches. At this point,

28:19

I forget how many. We sent off to all these churches, their own kits. We provided training and resources for free, no cost whatsoever to the church.

28:28

And our plan was threefold. We knew we needed to do three things. One, we needed to mobilize

28:34

Christian churches around the world, but specifically for us, across the United States. We needed to equip them with the right message, the message of the gospel.

28:43

So we knew it couldn't just be Apologia Church. It had to be local churches across the country.

28:51

And in order to do that, we had to provide a platform that would actually communicate through media across the world.

28:58

We knew it had to be, of course, us, but it also had to be other churches doing the same thing. So we needed to actually bring the message of the gospel, a consistent

29:08

Christian approach and response to abortion. In the area of abortion, we had to do it through media.

29:13

And the third platform we knew that needed to take place was the legislature.

29:22

Presently, we're seeing a spate of new pro -life bills. Some of them are great. Some of them are not so great.

29:31

All of them have subjective elements to them that make them weak and easy to evade.

29:41

And so one of the things that I believe, as someone who believes in the abolition of abortion, is that what we've got to do is we've got to win the culture.

29:53

We've got to win the hearts. We don't just win the best laws. So laws that actually prohibit abortion or laws like informed consent, where the mother is told more information, more accurate information about the baby, how the abortion would be performed, what kind of help the state or community will provide to her, stuff that makes a woman go,

30:14

Oh, wow, that's what I'm looking for. I wanted help. I didn't know my baby has a heartbeat. My baby is three months old.

30:20

My baby already has a heartbeat and brainwaves. Nobody told me that. The Ohio governor signing today what critics condemn as the most restrictive abortion law in the country.

30:31

Well, Georgia has passed one of the most restrictive abortion policies in the country. State lawmakers narrowly passed a measure

30:37

Friday that would outlaw most abortions once a heartbeat can be detected in the embryo.

30:42

State after state passing new restrictive laws. Next up is Louisiana. The question is who gets to determine what is life?

30:50

Is an ultrasound going to determine it? You know, they want to reinforce the suppression of truth of the mothers who want to kill their babies.

30:57

Because, you see, if the person is God, it doesn't matter what you prove. They're just going to think of different reasons why

31:03

I can kill this baby. You know, and that's what's happening now. And the mask is finally being pulled off of the abortion movement.

31:09

You have governors arguing that a baby could be killed after birth. In this particular example, if a mother is in labor,

31:17

I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable.

31:25

The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. There are people advocating for the killing of babies after they've been born.

31:34

And you're going to pull out an ultrasound machine and prove to this guy that he's killing a baby? Are you kidding me? My name is

31:40

Sarah Cleveland. I'm a registered diagnostic medical sonographer, otherwise known as an ultrasound tech.

31:45

I've been registered for 15 years. I specialize in a couple different areas, one of them being

31:51

OBGYN. I've been involved in anti -abortion work for many years. As someone who has operated an ultrasound machine for a number of years,

31:59

I can guarantee you the machine only takes pictures where I tell it to, where the operator tells it to.

32:05

It is 100 % operator dependent. I can choose not to see a heartbeat, even if there is one.

32:11

I can choose to show the mother. I can choose not to document it. I can choose to take a picture of the pregnancy without showing a heartbeat, even if there is one.

32:19

The machine takes the pictures where I tell it, and it can be easily manipulated. Today we had a young mom come in.

32:26

So this is a big baby, right? So we're talking 16 1⁄2 weeks. And we did a scan of her, and I started off just doing a normal scan like I would, just showing her the profile, showing her the baby, the baby's arms and legs were moving around, the ankles were crossed.

32:43

Okay, so we see details here. We see the baby's face. There's two hands right there.

32:50

Okay. You see the baby moving. I'm not moving at all. This is the baby moving. Look at the jaw moving.

32:57

See the mouth moving, open and shut? Watch that mouth. Just like a newborn baby, except in the womb.

33:03

See the legs at the top, the ankles are crossed. All these details, everything is there.

33:09

There's the umbilical cord. You see that little rope -looking thing right there? You see it pulsating?

33:14

That's the umbilical cord attached to the mother and baby. So we can get beautiful pictures like that.

33:20

I showed her the baby on the screen. I printed out pictures for her, and everything was great, and she enjoyed watching the ultrasound.

33:33

So this would be a great picture to give home, to take home for her mom, for her baby. You see the brain structures even in the brain there.

33:48

And then the next part of the ultrasound I did, on that very same baby, not moving any of the buttons on the screen,

33:54

I could just move the angle of the probe or the transducer to an angle where I lose the baby on the screen.

34:03

So I'm purposely taking a bad picture. You really can't tell anything, right? You can't see the profile. You can't really see anything.

34:10

This is mostly at the bottom of the screen. That's mostly bowel. The settings aren't quite right. I should drop the depth down.

34:15

I should zoom in a little bit more, clean up the image. But they're not going to care at an abortion facility. At the very, very top is a very, very small sliver of the placenta.

34:23

And in the top right of the screen is a cross -section of the baby's thigh.

34:31

But yet I fulfilled that pro -life law and done the ultrasound, showing the mom her baby. But again, it's impersonal.

34:37

It's not the whole baby. It's not the whole picture. But to her, it looks like nothing. To her, it doesn't really look like anything.

34:43

So here's the torso and the baby's face. You can see an arm moving. And then just in that same spot, move it.

34:49

So it's only just a little bit of the baby in the picture, but it doesn't look like the baby because it's a cross -section of an area of the body and mostly fluid.

34:58

It's mostly actually just bowel and air of the mom at the bottom. That's not even part of the pregnancy, but it's at the very top.

35:05

But it's fulfilling pro -life laws because if they say, if a mom asks to see the ultrasound before her abortion, I'm doing an ultrasound before the abortion, right?

35:13

If she asks to see the screen, I'll say, okay, no big deal. See how you can't really see anything? Like, yeah,

35:18

I don't really see anything. Say, that's all we're doing. We're just removing that. So the problem with the heartbeat bill is it's ultimately trusting someone who is in the business of killing babies to tell the truth using an ultrasound to detect a heartbeat.

35:31

There can't be any charges against an abortionist because they're fulfilling. They're not even breaking the law.

35:37

Babies with beating hearts are able to be seen as early as six weeks, but the abortion facility is not going to take the effort or take the time or do the ultrasound accurately to find that heartbeat that early on.

35:50

They're in the business of killing babies. They're not in the business of finding heartbeats, of being honest, and saving that baby's life.

35:58

So these pro -life pieces of legislation, these ultrasound bills, and even the heartbeat bills, how it's advertised it's going to save 90 % to 95 % of babies with beating hearts, absolutely a lie.

36:09

It's not true. We're trusting murderers to tell the truth. I urge you to do the right thing and make this not a regulation bill, but instead a full abolitionist bill to end human abortion in Ohio.

36:39

Thank you. Ms. Cleveland, thank you for your testimony, and I commend you for taking the time to read the text of the bill and giving us the appropriate lines for your thoughts.

36:52

So thank you very much for that. There was something in the paper,

37:11

I don't know how long ago, about they were going to try to limit, and I believe it was in Ohio, the abortions to win the heartbeats.

37:19

The heartbeats between 18 and 21 days, I believe. Yes. Why happened that?

37:24

Before the ink would be dry in Governor Kasich's name, assuming he would sign it, which I don't think he will, there will be a permanent injunction in the federal district court in southwest

37:32

Ohio by liberal pro -abortion judge Susan Millatt, saying this law is unconstitutional.

37:38

Mike, your group doesn't support the heartbeat bill. Seems like a pro -life bill. Why don't you support this one in particular?

37:44

What we've said at Ohio Right to Life is we have to be strategic in what laws we pass in all 50 states, because our federal court system is very vicious to us.

37:52

We have to be careful, because why would we invite a hostile court to make a decision that could set us back 40, 50 years

37:58

We have to engage in the incremental approach one step at a time. There's another bill that you do support.

38:04

It's called the 20 -week abortion ban. Do you think that bill will withstand challenges in the courts?

38:10

We do, and here's why. 12 other states have passed the fetal pain 20 -week ban. We are following breaking news out of Columbus today where Governor John Kasich has signed a 20 -week abortion ban while vetoing the heartbeat bill.

38:22

That heartbeat bill, which cleared the Republican -led legislator ban most abortions as early as six weeks into a pregnancy, and would have been among the strictest abortion bills in the country.

38:34

Every other organization that I name supports this bill. The only organization that doesn't support it is

38:42

National Right to Life. The Ohio governor signing today what critics condemn as the most restrictive abortion law in the country, and what supporters celebrate as a victory.

39:03

Mike, your group doesn't support the heartbeat bill. Look, divine intervention is

39:40

God's decision. Not ours. He will do it in his time, when he believes the time is right.

39:49

Absent divine intervention, we have to use our human reason, our human powers, to figure out what is the best course.

40:00

And so for 46 years, again, we've exchanged God's truth for political strategies, and it's been a sinking sand strategy.

40:12

And that's why, with all of our efforts, spending millions and millions and millions of dollars and countless man hours trying to chip away at Roe vs.

40:27

Wade with all our pro -life incremental bills, but the fact of the matter remains, when we pursue that kind of strategy, we inadvertently strengthen the bloody tyranny of Roe vs.

40:43

Wade, because we're actually giving credence to that lawless, iniquitous decree.

40:50

And so we've got to abandon the old Roe paradigm, and we've got to come up with a new political strategy, because the fact of the matter is we need

41:03

God's aid and help to deliver our nation from this evil.

41:09

And so, my friend, how can we do that when we publicly deny the lordship of Jesus Christ, where we ignore

41:18

His holy commandment and place man's commandment over and above His commandment?

41:26

My friend, that's called idolatry. And I want you to know, God is never going to bless idolatry.

41:33

And at the same time, we sort of dilute

41:40

His truth. And what's the problem with that? Well, God's truth is the only liberating force that He has given men to set us free from the demonic strongholds of the enemy who has come to kill, steal, and to destroy.

41:59

And so, brothers and sisters, we really... The Bible talks about broken cisterns that can't hold water.

42:09

And that is much of the political strategy of the church and the pro -life movement.

42:16

We have broken cisterns that can't hold water. And as somebody once said, what's the definition of insanity?

42:24

You do the same things over and over and over again and expecting different results.

42:30

Well, the fact of the matter is, with all of our political gains and all our religious gains addressing this issue, babies are still dying under our watch.

42:44

And so, we must understand the God of heaven doesn't want us to regulate baby murder.

42:50

He wants us to end it in His name. This is not our first rodeo,

43:42

Tony. For the church of Jesus Christ, who ended human sacrifice in history?

43:48

Who ended slavery? You can walk into the senator's office and say, this is what previously what it meant to be pro -life.

43:56

But now, there's a paradigm shift taking place. And this is the definition of being pro -life now.

44:03

Courts cannot make law. Roe versus Wade is legal fiction. Abortion is murder.

44:09

And we're calling for the complete abolishment of abortion. What do you think, Tony, would be set in motion if men like you took a principle stand and stood on the self -evident truth?

44:21

What do you think would be set in motion here? So, on a bill like Senate Bill 13, you're actually fighting two fronts.

44:32

You have your radical, far -left, liberal groups who, I mean, they're advocating for partial birth abortion and after -birth abortion.

44:40

But you're also, right now in Oklahoma, fighting the pro -life groups. When I interacted with Tony Lounger as a freshman legislator, my first thing that I did was

44:51

I offered up the Dismemberment Abortion Act of Oklahoma in 2015, I think it was. And he came, he had concerns about the legislation.

44:58

Said it was a little bit too aggressive and he was scared that it was going to be struck down in the courts. And it struck me really odd that here, you think, as somebody who's, you know,

45:08

I think the vice chair or the vice president of National Right to Life and the chairman of Oklahomans for Life, he should be excited that a freshman legislator wants to attack those issues.

45:17

And so he kind of taught, he's like, well, let's do this other legislation that's a little softer. And it really didn't sit well with me.

45:24

I was like, are we not trying to end abortion as a state? Are your organizations not trying to end abortion?

45:30

And it was, I mean, it was only a few meetings that I had with Tony Lounger that I quickly understood his goal is not to end abortion.

45:37

And it never has been. And that's why all of the people who've been deceived into donating money and getting behind him, that's why they're so confused on why we're still, you know, performing abortions.

45:48

And since then, he doesn't really speak to me a whole lot. He's actively opposed abolition language that I've had.

45:55

He's at the Capitol, passing out letters, talking to legislators, trying to get them to not hear this bill because he's just terrified it's going to undo everything that he's done.

46:06

The reality of our human condition and the society in which we live and the system of government that the

46:12

Founding Fathers gave us, if we decide that instead of saving some lives or saving those that we're able to save, we will pass a law that says, in effect, we'll save all the unborn children, and then that law is immediately enjoined.

46:32

It never goes into effect. But is that blood on the dial? Yeah, but see, then you're entering the realms of outcome.

46:40

In other words, you're making decisions on what you think would be the outcome.

46:45

So for 42 years, we've been told we can't do anything about abortion because of the Roe v. Wade ruling in 1972 and 1973.

46:54

But we got that completely wrong, completely wrong, because that Roe v. Wade ruling was the thing that was unconstitutional.

47:01

So in the state of Oklahoma, as I'm talking to my fellow senators, I say, listen, we can either, as a state, uphold the

47:07

Constitution, which we swore to do, which protects life, or we cannot uphold it and uphold an unconstitutional

47:15

Supreme Court ruling and allow the slaughter of innocent children. It's one or the other. And we've been looking at it completely wrong, because the argument 90 % of the time when you're talking about abortion issues that always goes back to, well, we can't really do anything because of Roe v.

47:30

Wade. That's incorrect. That is absolutely incorrect. And a good thing to think about is the Supreme Court once ruled that slaves were private property and had no rights.

47:40

So at that time, would we be the kind of Christians and citizens that would have just stood by and be like, well, sorry, we're just going to let slavery continue to go because the

47:49

Supreme Court said so? There was a lot of people that did that. There was also abolitionists that said, no, the

47:54

Supreme Court can't say that because that's unconstitutional. But for some reason, that question about Roe v. Wade always keeps coming up.

48:01

And they have to understand that Roe v. Wade was unconstitutional. And if you abide by Roe v.

48:06

Wade as a state, you are violating the Constitution of the United States of America. Do you think this is the year that we're going to end it?

48:24

Are we going to end abortion this year? I'm hopeful, but I know that it's...

48:29

because I've been in the movement for 46 years, even before that. I know it'll take a lot more time.

48:36

No, I do not. I wish it would be, but no, I do not. Do you think that this is the year that we're going to end abortion?

48:41

I hope so, but probably not. Hopefully. But I think it's going to take some changes in our government to do so.

48:51

What kind of changes do you think? I think we need one or more Supreme Court justices replaced.

48:57

So I'm hopeful that the Supreme Court will do something to renounce its original decisions.

49:03

But I know that we have many more years of work. Were you aware that in 1973, when

49:10

Roe v. Wade was brought in, that it was a Republican majority nominated

49:15

Supreme Court? Actually, I was not. Are you aware that the Supreme Court in 1973 that passed

49:22

Roe was a Republican majority on this? I knew that. You knew that? They were anti -lifers.

49:27

I put my faith in pro -life President Trump. He's going to put pro -lifers in the Supreme Court, as he has, and there'll be at least one more coming.

49:40

Where the pro -life industry has led us down, like Pied Pipers, they've led us down just this primrose path that we're never going to get off of without massive repentance, is there's ample evidence that their strategy fails.

49:54

You know, if you take exactly what they tell you, that we're going to, you know, we need to work and get a

50:00

Republican President, a Republican Senate, get some pro -life judges, and then we're going to overturn

50:08

Roe and turn it back over to the states, and then, you know, 30 or 40 years in the future, we'll get rid of abortion. Well, that's been tried.

50:16

1992, Planned Parenthood versus Casey, it was the perfect test case.

50:24

We had eight Republican -appointed Supreme Court justices. Those were appointed because the religious right started in the late 70s, early 80s, elected

50:34

Ronald Reagan, elected George Bush, fought for these judges, and they upheld Roe.

50:40

It's a failed strategy, and it's actually just terrifying, because,

50:48

I mean, ultimately, if we don't repent, who knows what's going to happen.

50:55

Truth is, abortion will not end in America because of laws.

51:01

Abortion is going to end in America when we awaken to the reality of the claims of Christ.

51:10

I believe what God is looking for is His people to come in agreement with the nature of this

51:19

Holocaust. A few years ago,

51:24

I was on a panel, and we were talking about abortion and the way that we approach abortion and people being upset with showing dismembered babies, the aftermath of abortion, and the gentleman who was with me on the panel brought up the

51:48

Emmett Till case. Emmett Till, murdered in Mississippi, come down from Chicago, and he got open casket, beaten, skull -crushed, shot in the face, and they had an open casket, and it horrified people.

52:09

But for a lot of people, that's what it took for them to see the ugliness of racism, the ugliness of Jim Crow, the ugliness of it.

52:20

And it's a shocking thing for my kids to see, but it's important.

52:26

Pictures of the Holocaust, you know? Pictures of Auschwitz and things. I went to Dachau with my oldest son, and there's images there, and there's an eeriness there.

52:39

And people don't understand. Even American soldiers, battle -hardened soldiers, when they liberated some of these camps, they were undone.

52:51

You know what I'm saying? And so I do think it's important for people to understand the gruesome nature of abortion and the dismembering of a baby inside the womb.

53:04

I'm spending time with my second grandbaby, who's now a week old.

53:10

This little, beady baby. And we are dismembering little, beady babies like him.

53:22

And the only difference is the location. Unthinkable, unspeakable things are being done.

53:32

And overwhelmingly, to little, beady babies who look like him. Overwhelmingly and disproportionately to little, beady babies who look like my grandbaby who was sleeping on my chest the other day, just a few days old.

53:45

And it's gruesome, and it's unthinkable. This is not a healthcare issue that can be resolved by legal technicalities.

53:55

We can't get on the field of battle using

54:00

Satan's cunning schemes and think we're going to beat him at his own game.

54:06

That's a fool's errand. What God is looking for is men and women of faith who will stand foursquare on the self -evident truth and declare that Jesus Christ is

54:21

Lord, that abortion violates his holy commandment, thou shall not murder, and just act like that's true.

54:33

All the power in Alderney now in the hands of Democrats, moving for quick passage of an abortion rights bill.

54:40

We're saying here in New York, women's lives matter. On January 22nd,

54:46

New York State passed the Reproductive Health Act. Provisions in the bill include dropping most restrictions on abortions after 24 weeks, allowing midwives and nurse practitioners to perform abortions, and ending criminal charges for harming children in the womb.

55:02

And that night after they passed the health act, I couldn't sleep. All I could think about was babies dying.

55:09

And so what we did, I prayed about it. I prayed and said, God, what would you have me do here?

55:15

And I thought, well, I could shut the bookstore down for a month and then not pay any sales tax for a month, but I can't do that because I got to make a living.

55:24

And so finally I just said, well, we could just shut it down for the day and hang a sign up on the door and say, we're closing the store for the day and today we're not paying any sales tax to the state of New York.

55:35

We'll pay sales tax when we reopen, but when we do it, we'll be doing it under duress. And that's what we decided to do.

55:43

And we took a picture of the sign on the front door and I sent it over to Marcus and next thing

55:50

I know, we're going viral on the internet. John Speed, owner of John Speed Books, is here to share more of his story.

56:11

Abortion has always been murder, whether it's after 20 some weeks or whether it's at conception.

56:17

Either way, it's murder, and it's something that people need to repent of, place their faith in Christ, and they can be given forgiveness.

56:24

We have him on now. This is John Speed. He's the bookstore owner. I can't believe you're on.

56:31

Thank you so much for calling in. John Speed closed his bookstore in protest of the signing of this bill.

56:37

He is a pastor at Christ the King Baptist Church, I assume in Syracuse also.

56:43

He joins us now. How are you? I'm well. Thanks for having me on the show. Good job for closing down your store.

56:50

I know it was only for a day, but taking a stand against what New York has just done.

56:56

And the phone calls started pouring in, the orders started pouring in, and the private messages and emails from all over the world, people calling us, crying in tears, thanking us because we did something.

57:14

We did something tangible that people could wrap their mind around, and it resonated across the world that somebody was actually taking a stand.

57:24

Do you think you did anything special? No, I don't think I did anything special. I certainly didn't expect it to blow up into some big thing.

57:33

I just prayed and I did what I thought was the right thing to do. I think about the things that in 1991 would have been considered unthinkable, you know, drag queen story hour, shout your abortion, women getting up and bragging, having birthday cakes for killing their children, you know, wide acceptance of homosexual marriage, wide acceptance of men in women's bathrooms.

58:04

All these things that are commonplace today would have been unthinkable 30, 20 years ago.

58:11

And so the question then becomes is, if we do not do what's necessary, if these lesser magistrates don't stand up, what is unthinkable in their counties?

58:22

What is unthinkable in their cities that will be commonplace for their children and grandchildren in 20 years?

58:28

And they're going to have to give an account for. So I do think it requires courage, but it also requires faith, and it also requires fearing the

58:41

Lord more than you fear men. One of the problems with the way American Christians think about politics and the way

58:48

Americans in general think about politics is we have completely reversed that age -old adage of all politics is local.

58:58

We believe that the presidency is the only thing that matters. And so we don't even know who our local representatives are.

59:07

We don't care. It's who's going to be the president, right? Part of that is a manifestation of statism, right?

59:15

But I think one thing we have to do is go back to the old adage of all politics is local and speak to local political issues.

59:25

Who the president is is much less consequential than who my sheriff is. Right? Yeah.

59:31

Because if you get a bad federal government and bad federal legislation, let's say just kind of worst -case scenario and stuff just falls apart, do you know what's going to matter?

59:44

If I have a sheriff who's willing to say no, not in my county. Well, good afternoon.

59:50

My name is Reverend Zach Morgan, and I'm with Apologia Church. There are six things that the

59:56

Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him. Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood.

01:00:02

Our God commands us not to murder. Killing of an innocent baby in the womb is murder in the eyes of God.

01:00:09

So the powerful thing about how Pastor Zach Morgan went and approached the legislature was that it wasn't so much about expecting that at that moment the legislature was going to say, oh yes, we see, we're going to immediately criminalize abortion.

01:00:23

This is a mustard seed being planted, and it's more about the gospel being proclaimed in the public square and to the authorities than it is about expecting that at this very moment we're going to have an end to abortion.

01:00:39

That's not how the gospel works. You all play a very crucial role in the governance of our city and presently have a delegated position of authority by God.

01:00:48

You must wake up. You must come to your senses. You must act on behalf of the most oppressed people group on this earth.

01:00:56

Your primary duty is to protect our city's inhabitants. Look what God commands you in his word.

01:01:02

Rescue those who are being taken away to death. Hold back those who are stumbling towards the slaughter.

01:01:09

That's our duty. We have to act according to this most important priority now.

01:01:16

So Pastor Zach Morgan went to the Phoenix City Council to preach the gospel. That led to a long string of Christian churches and ministers of the gospel, pastors across the

01:01:29

United States of America going and doing the same thing. My name is Marcus Pittman. I am a member of Apologia Church.

01:01:35

My name is Michael Hendrickson. Hi, my name is Mikey. I strive to love Jesus each and every day. My name is

01:01:41

Harold King. My name is Crystal Marshall. My name is Taryn Conover. My name is Reese Morgan.

01:01:46

My name is Sarah Cleveland. Make the city of Phoenix a sanctuary city for pre -born children.

01:01:54

Norman resident Shane Dodson addressing city council urging them to stand against abortion. You gotta start somewhere and we're starting locally.

01:02:02

As he spoke, two council members, Kate Bierman and Alex Scott, turned their chairs around. Council member

01:02:07

Scott, who actually represents Dodson's ward, says his words were hateful towards women. I'm here tonight to talk to you about the atrocity that has been occurring in Hagerstown for many years, currently at 160

01:02:19

West Washington Street. That atrocity, as you may well know, is abortion, the murder of unborn humans.

01:02:26

Mr. Mayor, I move to adjourn. Under Robert's rules, that's a precedent motion. It is. We need to get a second.

01:02:34

Second. In the original concept of the division of labor between church and state, the idea was this, that the church is established by God.

01:02:46

It's created by God, it's ordained by God, it's instituted by God, and it's regulated by God.

01:02:54

And yet at the same time, the state as an institution is ordained by God, created by God, instituted by God, regulated by God, and is supremely and ultimately accountable to God.

01:03:16

In simple terms, ladies and gentlemen, that means that in the original concept of this distinction of church and state, the state recognized that the state was not autonomous, that the state was not a law unto itself, but that the state itself is under God.

01:03:39

And to be under God means to be accountable to His authority.

01:03:46

You don't just rebel. You don't have a peasant's revolt and start burning down the castle. Instead, you have your lower magistrates interpose themselves between the people that they are charged to protect and the upper magistrates who seek to oppress them.

01:04:04

That principle is one of the key principles of Reformation.

01:04:11

And it's part of the reason why I really strongly believe that the pro -life cause is best served at the local level rather than simply at the national level.

01:04:22

I don't want us to stop influencing Congress and the

01:04:27

Supreme Court, but we're not going to win the battle there if we don't win the battle at home first.

01:04:35

And I have to just confess something. I'm only human, and this is hard.

01:04:42

Ministry is hard. Faithful ministry is very hard. You will be reviled.

01:04:49

You will be lied about. You are going to be attacked. If you are faithful, you're not going to get it any different than Jesus or the apostles got it.

01:04:59

You are going to be stepped on, and it hurts, and it's very, very hard.

01:05:05

And there are times where this becomes overwhelming, and you have to just go to God in prayer, and you have to just depend upon Him.

01:05:19

There's times where you look across the landscape and you wonder, where are all the faithful people?

01:05:25

And obviously, you want to work on yourself constantly to be faithful, but you look across the landscape at times as you preach the truth, and you wonder, where are all the faithful people?

01:05:35

And John Barros, when I talked to him on Saturday, was one of those guys that just reignited within me the passion to fight, to continue.

01:05:46

God has amazing, glorious, faithful people that are there that always remind you about Christ, who

01:05:56

He is, His faithfulness, His love. John Barros, for me, is a man that keeps fire underneath me.

01:06:05

He is a faithful man of God, a humble man of God that reminds me of who

01:06:11

Jesus is. When I tell you I'm tired, I'm not talking about like I worked hard all day and go home and go to bed like in construction.

01:06:20

This is bone -wearing, man. This is demons where I can literally feel them around me.

01:06:28

Sometimes when I'm preaching, I can feel like the letters of the words just come out and just drop down onto the sidewalk.

01:06:35

It's like awfulness attacking at every angle you can.

01:06:41

I want this over, Marcus. Let's get it over. Abort it.

01:06:48

There you go. You know what? Y 'all are hypocrites. Christians are hypocrites. Why are Christians hypocrites?

01:06:55

You're here to slaughter your sons and daughters. Go kill one of them.

01:07:02

Let this one live a while. Oh, my goodness.

01:07:08

There's a spirit of nonsense going on here today. Did you look them up, man? What do you like best?

01:07:15

What do you like best? What do you like? You're going to do nothing. Cowards. Cowards.

01:07:22

Cowards do nothing. Nothing. Ever. Oh, my goodness.

01:07:32

Look at this guy. Boy, that poor lady that belongs to him. Ladies, look this place up.

01:07:41

It's a house of demons. Can't you tell? I believe that there's different demons that come on different days.

01:07:47

It's like the most bizarre thing. And then, you know, you'll have a day like yesterday. Wasn't that beautiful?

01:07:53

And then today, everybody in here is flipping you off, cussing you out, even the people walking down the street.

01:08:00

Must be something to come for an abortion and get a civics lesson. We will.

01:08:07

We got a card right here you can go to. We got a place right here.

01:08:12

We'll do it. Get it. She wants it. You have no idea what we can do for you.

01:08:18

Really. Look, I know you don't want it. Come here, miss. Come here.

01:08:23

Let me pray for you. We can help you with them, too. Okay, let me ask you to do one thing this morning.

01:08:29

I'll just ask you. Of course, you can say no. Probably will. But if you just give this a day.

01:08:35

Go see those lady doctors on that green card. It's ten minutes from here over on Colonial. Everything is free.

01:08:42

They'll give you a 3D ultrasound. They'll give you free medical help, free financial help. And like I said, our church will step in and help you with whatever else it is that you need beyond that.

01:08:57

We can help you with that. Let me warn you about something.

01:09:06

God tells us that he hates the hands that shed innocent blood. Your baby's innocent. Listen, these are hard truths, but I want to tell you something.

01:09:16

Everything changes today for you. If you go through with this or if you choose life, everything's going to change.

01:09:22

You're at a crossroad right now. Yeah. Well, then you know the pain.

01:09:28

But do you know, I know a lady that came here begged me to never leave recently that said that the worst day in her life in the year is

01:09:35

Mother's Day. This is the worst day of my life right now. I don't want to do this. Why don't you come sit on the wall?

01:09:41

It's a magical wall. It's a magical wall. Oh, you're so awesome.

01:09:47

That's not us. That's God touching your heart. When I'm afflicted, when you're afflicted, when pain intrudes into your life and the threat of death comes, the first thing that we ask is, why?

01:10:12

Why me? Why has this happened? How could God allow these things to take place?

01:10:19

The why questions are the questions about purpose. The why questions are the questions about meaning.

01:10:25

We're not asking how. We're not asking when. We're not asking what. We're asking why.

01:10:30

And I think there's a reason why we ask the question. It's one thing to experience pain, but it's another thing to anticipate that my suffering and my pain is worthless.

01:10:47

Why don't you tell me who Jeremiah was? The apple of my eye.

01:11:05

In my personal life, the resurrection is everything to me. If there's no resurrection, I am to be pitied.

01:11:11

There's no point of hope or even the will to fight against the things that ail me. Without the resurrection, there's no atonement for evil, and we're still dead in our sins.

01:11:19

There's no reason for prayer, worship, or fasting. We'd be worshiping a dead God, and therefore life has lost all meaning and purpose.

01:11:27

I mean, he was, you know, he was a guy, he was a boy, quirky.

01:11:34

He had his issues, but Marcus, I just didn't love him as a son.

01:11:43

I really liked him as the young man, but he was becoming such a blessing.

01:11:59

We had a goal to go to state, but we didn't really buy into the program that he was in. We had the same game plan as last year, but we just didn't fully buy into the program.

01:12:08

We were young, but I think this year we really came together as a team more. He started to take his faith a little bit more serious, and instead of kind of like dragging him into the battle, he had this desire to participate more and more, and then we had a young man who got saved, and he wanted me to baptize him.

01:12:28

So I said, sure. I baptized this young man, he made his profession of faith, and I just,

01:12:34

I just opened it up, said basically the ward is fine, come on down if you've never been baptized. And in the midst of that, one of the young men that came was my son,

01:12:48

Jeremy. And I had the privilege as a dad to baptize him.

01:12:54

And all I can tell you, it wasn't just a baptism of water, it was literally a baptism of fire.

01:13:03

And it filled his soul, and he, from that moment on until he drew his last breath, he just set his face like flint to storm the gates of hell.

01:13:18

He was so focused on loving, serving, and obeying his Lord. I mean,

01:13:24

I just literally saw an incredible transformation of our son.

01:13:30

What began to happen is we, my wife and I would wake up in the middle of the night, and our son would just be pounding the floor, and he was in excruciating pain.

01:13:50

And we would hold him, and pray for him. And we're thinking like, really, what are we dealing with here?

01:13:57

This doesn't seem like it's a normal sports injury. And so, before we knew it, we were called into the doctor's office, and the doctor sat us down, and he says,

01:14:11

I gotta tell you something that I hate to have to tell any parent. Your son has an aggressive form of bone cancer.

01:14:29

And, you know, of course, it just took the wind right out of our bodies.

01:14:36

It was hard to hear. And, you know, so we took that news.

01:14:43

We went home. Obviously, we ran to the Lord. We held our son to Him, and called the family together, called for the elders of the church to anoint him with oil, and pray, and trust

01:15:02

God that He would see us through. We literally, we went to two countries and six different hospitals in the attempts to save our son's life.

01:15:19

And it was through that great adventure some phenomenal things took place.

01:15:30

We're praying for you, brother. Let's see what this looks like. It probably won't look much different.

01:15:37

That was on his heart. We did not ask him to do that. He came to us after Caleb did his, and he said he wants to cut his hair like Jeremiah.

01:15:46

I am going bald for Jeremiah. So what began to happen was we became aware of this foundation called

01:15:57

Make -A -Wish Foundation. It started in San Diego at Rady's Hospital.

01:16:03

They approached him saying, listen, you know, there's this Make -A -Wish. Ask anything.

01:16:10

You can go anywhere in the world. You can meet anybody who you would like to meet, a celebrity, a sports figure.

01:16:17

You know, just make the wish. And he really wasn't in the condition then to kind of follow through.

01:16:25

We went to MD Anderson in Houston and Make -A -Wish followed us there. And so they were kind of, you know, they knew that time was short of the essence.

01:16:35

Make your wish, Jeremiah. And I was so amazed at the maturity of my son.

01:16:46

He began to really think about what wish, what would be his wish. And as he asked questions, he found out there was such a thing as called a legacy wish that he could leave something behind that would benefit others.

01:17:04

So when they were asking him and pushing him to make the wish, he said, well, this is my wish.

01:17:11

I'd like to meet with Governor Greg Abbott from my home state, and I want to have a conversation with him.

01:17:19

And I want him to do his duty as a civil magistrate to end the

01:17:25

Holocaust in the state of Texas and abolish abortion. And I just, for the life of me,

01:17:37

I was just so blown away that in light of the pain and the suffering his son was going through and that he could ask for anything, that he would ask something so selfless that would not benefit him but would benefit others.

01:17:56

And then lo and behold, we get a call from the governor's office. He's going to talk to our son.

01:18:03

First off, I want to say thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to talk to me.

01:18:09

Back when I was in MD Anderson, I was asked by Make -A -Wish to make my wish. They talked about a legacy wish which the kids could leave behind after they passed.

01:18:20

And that really intrigued me. So for my wish, I wanted to talk with you and discuss the bill of abolition.

01:18:27

A recent poll showed that 68 % of Texans want abortion abolished. So, sir, you would be representing the demand of Texans if you pass this bill.

01:18:36

In conclusion, we just want you to treat abortion like an act of murder and should be punished by law.

01:18:46

And that's just for my wish. I just wanted to say it to you. And I know that you're a

01:18:54

Christian and you're pro -life. And I know it must be difficult standing against a whole federal beast that kind of forces abortion upon us.

01:19:06

But I think that we could rally with Texas and we could end abortion here and now. Because that would, at least for me, make my wish complete before I pass.

01:19:19

Your wish is on the Republican Party platform to mission. And that's what we're going to be pursuing this next

01:19:28

Wednesday session. And that is to outlaw abortion altogether in the state of Texas.

01:19:34

Yes. And so your wish is granted. What's it mean to you to see your son do something like that?

01:19:51

Marcus, I called it a painful gift. You know, you're just a human being.

01:20:00

You're a father. You know, got feet of clay. You love your son.

01:20:06

You're proud of him. And, you know, you don't want him to go.

01:20:15

You want him to stay. You want to continue to have a relationship with him.

01:20:20

And he had so much potential, Marcus. My gosh. He was handsome. He was strong.

01:20:26

He was witty. He was smart. He was like the full package deal. You know, so much potential.

01:20:32

And you want to see him, you know, realize that potential. But I truly believe with all my heart this was

01:20:41

God's call upon his life. This was a cross he was called to bear.

01:20:51

And he did it faithfully to the end of his life. If you follow his story, you'll see at like every stage of the struggle and the battle for his life, he would always put his thumbs up and he had this incredible smile that just lit up the world.

01:21:10

And literally five minutes before he died, five minutes, he did it again.

01:21:26

He just put his thumbs up and just cracked his smile. I thought, man, this kid.

01:21:34

Was it worth it? Always, brother. You know, we serve a

01:21:41

God that takes the good, the bad, and the ugly.

01:21:49

And somehow it serves his purposes. And I know we're just human beings.

01:21:59

We see in a mirror dimly. But I truly believe the day will come when we are in the presence of our

01:22:07

God, we'll look back and we'll just have one word. Perfect. Perfect.

01:22:14

All things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose.

01:22:22

Will abortion be ended in this country? It's not an if, brother. It's a when.

01:22:31

Did you see Jeremiah's eyes? Did you see the hope in his face? The idea that a sitting governor would use his lawful authority to protect the preborn, that a legislature would rally to the defense against the tyranny of the

01:22:48

Supreme Court and the entire federal judiciary. That, rather than go with hat in hand to the judiciary, has been done countless times before and quibble for some scraps from the tyrant's table for the preborn.

01:23:02

Rather than that, they would interpose on their behalf. The promise was made, and now

01:23:09

Jeremiah is gone. He's gone to be with our

01:23:14

Lord. And now we wait to see the response of Governor Abbott and the

01:23:20

Texas legislature. It would have been the first bill that made it to committee that would end abortion in any state since Roe v.

01:23:36

Wade. There were more than 300 people there testifying. It went until about 3 in the morning.

01:23:44

Over 300 people testifying in favor of the bill and only 4 or 5 that testified against it.

01:23:50

Before the hearings even commenced, the chairman of the committee, Representative Jeff Leach from Plano, Texas, had said publicly in the media that he was not going to allow this bill to reach the floor.

01:24:07

Despite being pro -life, he said that he will not support legislation that subjects women who have abortions to criminal liability.

01:24:15

He said the bill will not be advanced. I left there thinking, I think we might have made a difference here.

01:24:21

It seemed like God showed up in the room. People were sharing the gospel in their testimonies.

01:24:27

People were presenting a biblical approach to handling this issue of abortion. And it was almost like a revival meeting.

01:24:35

If you say that those who murder humans outside of the womb deserve a life sentence or the death penalty, but you hedge on the issue of providing equal justice for life inside of the womb, you revealed something about what you really believe about the pro -life issue.

01:24:50

You are called God's minister, and your duty is to punish the evildoer, as God has defined evil, and protect those who are good in God's sight, as God has defined good.

01:25:06

So I ask you to make sure this bill sees the light of day. Do your duty.

01:25:14

That is your job. And trust God for the results. In Jesus' name.

01:25:19

Before you get out of my bed, I just want to say on behalf of the committee, thank you for your testimony.

01:25:24

Jeremiah was a hero. He was a hero. And you should be, and I know you are, very proud.

01:25:32

And thank you for being here today. God bless you, sir. Thank you so much. It would criminalize abortion and potentially allow women who have one to be charged with capital murder.

01:25:44

That's a crime in Texas that can carry the death penalty. No mainstream pro -life group in this country has ever endorsed penalizing women.

01:25:52

What about women who have an abortion? Should they be charged with murder? No. We need to talk about who's really to blame, and that's the abortionist.

01:26:01

So if anything, we would say that this abortion doctor knows what they're doing, and they knew that.

01:26:06

So that's what we're seeing happening in the states. How do we overcome the objection that women who, let's say like the other day there was a lady and she stabbed her baby like nine times, newborn baby, and she was charged with murder, but a person, a woman who has an abortion is not charged with murder.

01:26:21

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And it's a logical inconsistency, what you're saying. Okay. Yeah, it is. You're right.

01:26:26

Yeah, totally. God has spoken on this issue. And if someone kills their baby, and you decide you're going to make abortion illegal, what are you going to charge them with if they commit the crime?

01:26:43

Jaywalking? What are you going to charge, running a stop sign? They've killed a human life.

01:26:51

They've murdered it. They've paid a hitman to do it. This isn't about compassion for the women.

01:26:59

This is about keeping votes in place and keeping money in place. And if there's no repentance within the

01:27:06

Republican Party, and no repentance within the pro -life movement, my prayer is the thing either reforms or dies.

01:27:14

We don't need the pro -life movement if that's what they're bringing us. I'm encouraging you,

01:27:29

I'm inviting you to join me in voting yes, in giving a voice to the voiceless.

01:27:37

It's a good vote. It's a great vote. And it's a great bill. The people who actually worked, in many ways, hardest to block this bill in Texas were the conservative, pro -life, and Christian organizations in the state of Texas.

01:28:00

Popular pro -life talking heads like Abby Johnson was against, is against these kinds of bills.

01:28:09

You had Christian organizations that actually weren't in support of this.

01:28:14

And why? Because we've thought for so long in terms of neutrality and incrementalism that we've lost sight of what the ultimate goal really is.

01:28:27

And I think if you consider this as a Christian, letting go of our traditions, even pro -life traditions, as grateful to God as we are for all of the pro -life victories that have saved children,

01:28:40

I think we have to ask the question, can I remove these blinders and these traditions to actually stand on the word of God and be consistent?

01:28:50

What's the message of the scriptures? Those are image bearers of God. God demands justice.

01:28:57

God calls His people to turn from evil, to cease from doing evil, learn to do good, to seek justice, to actually protect the fatherless, to hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

01:29:14

The Christian message is to call it what it is, sin. To call people to turn from sin to Christ.

01:29:21

To plead with the world to come and receive forgiveness and salvation and to demand that the injustice of the murder of children stop once and for all.

01:29:31

We're learning that people just don't want a new voice that could come along and potentially pull support away from what they're doing.

01:29:42

If you can prove, like we're trying to prove, that the local church can go to their city councils and the local church can go to the state legislatures and petition them biblically, it totally flies in the face of their narrative.

01:30:00

And if we start having some success at that with sanctuary cities taking place, then look out.

01:30:08

They're going to do everything that they can do to stop us. We take the

01:30:13

Bible seriously when it says that we should pray for kings and those in authority. That doesn't just mean to pray for the president. One of the things that we established at GFBC is that we had a weekly prayer group and we prayed for a local, a state, and a national person each week.

01:30:31

And it was always, you know, a third of the year judicial, a third of the year legislative, a third of the year executive.

01:30:38

And we would pray for these people and then when we prayed for them, we would write a letter to them and all of the people who were at church that day would sign the letter.

01:30:47

And we would send the letter to them saying that we were praying for them. It was amazing how many people wrote us back.

01:30:54

And it was amazing how many wrote us back and said, as you're praying for me, pray for this.

01:31:00

And it was amazing that some people actually visited us. People who just wanted to say to us in person,

01:31:08

I was moved by that. The only time I hear from Christians, I'm a Christian and the only time

01:31:13

I hear from Christians is when they want to jump on me for, you know, some this, some that, some the other. I was moved by that.

01:31:20

And that just really sort of, that kind of rocked me, you know. So I think that there has to be layers to this.

01:31:28

We don't just preach sermons about issues, right? We need to address issues as they come up.

01:31:37

When we're dealing with the text, don't avoid the issues. We need to be informed. Absolutely we do.

01:31:43

But we also need to be engaged and establish relationships with the people who are representing us to the degree that we can and encourage people in our churches to be involved.

01:31:54

We had, in one election, three precinct judges from our church.

01:32:00

Two hundred members at our church. Three precinct judges. You know?

01:32:06

Twenty years ago, you published the book Abortion, a Rational Look at an

01:32:11

Emotional Issue. And we're here to talk about the re -release of that book with Reformation Trust, 20 years after the fact.

01:32:18

Tell me about your thought process in titling that book. Well, when I, I did choose the title myself.

01:32:25

I wanted to acknowledge up front that so much of the debate about the question of abortion is generated by heat rather than light.

01:32:36

By more emotions than by intelligent discourse. And also

01:32:42

I was trying to give the idea that this book was not going to be simply a religious diatribe.

01:32:50

Okay. But rather that the discussion and the arguments that would be set forth would come not only from the

01:32:57

Bible, but also from natural law and from the court of reason itself.

01:33:04

And so that was kind of what was in my mind for choosing that title. In the book,

01:33:11

I mentioned somewhat naively my conviction 20 years ago that if we could persuade people that this was a human life that we were taking, that the debate would be over and it would be a very short time until Roe v.

01:33:28

Wade would be repealed. And to my utter astonishment, that has not been the case.

01:33:35

More and more and more people clearly agree. Yes, this is a human being.

01:33:41

It's an unborn human being, but it's an unwanted unborn human being. And they have no problems with continuing the process, even though they are ready to admit that what they're doing is destroying the life of an unborn human person, living human person.

01:34:03

I really can't imagine society sinking much lower than that.

01:34:10

And it just amazes me that it's tolerated. But it is tolerated.

01:34:17

And it's tolerated every day. People have lost the capacity to blush over this issue.

01:34:25

This is not just evil. This is a monstrous evil. And I've been a theologian.

01:34:32

I've spent my whole life studying theology and teaching theology. And I can tell you if I know anything at all about God, I know that God hates abortion.

01:34:46

And I know that he will not tolerate this forever. Well, I had followed

01:34:54

R .C. Sproul, of course, for many, many years. He was an absolute hero.

01:35:04

I mean, he could take great theological truths and boil them down to where a knucklehead like me could understand them.

01:35:12

I can't even believe it. I miss him so bad. But the thing is that R .C. was building a church here.

01:35:18

And it wasn't just him and I. It was the church and I. They encouraged me, sponsored me, helped me.

01:35:26

You know, even on his last Renewing Your Mind episode, he was talking about how

01:35:33

God had blessed St. Andrews and how God had blessed Reformation Bible College right over here and how he had blessed

01:35:40

Ligonier Ministries right here. And then at the end of all that, he said, but, you know, every morning,

01:35:47

Vessa and I get out of bed, and we hit our knees, and we begin to pray for John Barrows in front of that God -awful pit down there in Orlando.

01:35:57

I follow on Facebook. I follow John Barrows' ministry every day where he preaches at an abortion clinic in downtown

01:36:08

Orlando and constantly there are students that go down there and work and volunteer.

01:36:18

Literally thousands of lives are being saved because of that outreach.

01:36:25

You know, when you have that kind of a, somebody that loved you that much and somebody that was just behind you that much, it's hard.

01:36:35

But, you know, the things he taught me live on. He still lives on. He lives on right in my head.

01:36:41

I mean, in a lot of ways, it's not like he's gone because he's been a part of me.

01:36:48

R .C. Sproul was one of the great champions of the last generation, and it's difficult for me to speak of him in any other way but in terms of adulation because he was my mentor and he was my friend.

01:37:06

I can't imagine anybody doing a better job than what we heard from George today.

01:37:12

I was very excited to hear that. He was incredibly courageous, and when he came to a biblical conviction about anything, he was willing to stick his neck out and take a bold public stand on that.

01:37:31

So when he tackled the issue of abortion, it naturally caught everyone's attention.

01:37:38

Men like John MacArthur, who was always incredibly faithful to the scriptures, was, with R .C.'s

01:37:50

example, emboldened to speak more broadly and publicly about the issue of life.

01:37:59

In other words, R .C. did what leaders do. He led. He led the way. And by leading the way, particularly with his book, which was published more than 25 years ago, he was able to make a huge difference.

01:38:15

I think about R .C. almost every day. I think about the kind of impact that he would be having today on the discussion about marriage and gender and human sexuality.

01:38:31

And I believe that what he would say to all of us is, it's your job now.

01:38:39

It's time for you to take up the mantle. It's time for you to go and identify the next generation of leaders.

01:38:48

It's time. You can be a part of this.

01:39:35

We want to encourage you to actually be a part of this movement to bring the truth, to bring the gospel to the culture all around us, to do it faithfully, to love the people around us, and to love

01:39:46

God, and to love these little babies. And the way to do it is to go to endabortionnow .com. When you go there, you get all the free training, you get all the free resources, and you join hundreds of churches, local churches, across the

01:39:58

United States and really around the world who are bringing the truth to the culture all around them.

01:40:04

You can do it by going to endabortionnow .com. At the point of conception,

01:40:15

DNA is in their strands. But we kill them anyway, trade our children for our plans.

01:40:20

It's sad to see these dads who refuse to be a man. We'll kill their own son, what was done to son of man.

01:40:27

I'm mad at the womb, but I'm feeling like a hypocrite. In my past, I was militant.

01:40:32

Apart from God, I'd kill my kid. We're living in his world, a righteous God rightly judging us.

01:40:37

Suppressed and rejected in a self -inflicted genocide. I search inside the scriptures for the answers to the reason why.

01:40:44

The wickedness within our hearts, the root of where the sin lies. Die to self, lose your life, follow

01:40:49

Christ as sacrifice. Shorts from pain, eternal gain, count the cost, he paid the price. He did it all, what can a dead man do to hear the call?

01:40:58

Abort his mission, keep on wishing. Fisherman, a man is God. I'm not a murderer. I know

01:41:03

I'm not a murderer. I'm against abortion. I don't think you're a murderer. Let's stop calling her a murderer because she's not.

01:41:09

She's not. Are you with Infowars? And that's victim -blaming. And you're telling me to tone down my language? It's victim -blaming, sir.

01:41:15

Oh Lord, we need you now. Please hear us cry it out.

01:41:22

So many babies being murdered that we're losing count.

01:41:29

Sixty million murdered in our country, that's a scary count. Wombs become a death camp, trash can a burial.

01:41:35

American Holocaust, more than all the soldiers lost in every single war.

01:41:40

It's an era marked in gore. The innocent defenseless, babies being torn limb from limb.

01:41:47

And you're angry about our gospel call? We aren't loving, well you never even went at all.

01:41:53

What is love? The God above gave his life to rescue us. Now we must surrender trust, speak in truth and act in love.

01:42:00

Silence is a sign that we fear a man instead of God. Oddly enough, we keep adding on commandments.

01:42:06

Thou shalt be kind, tolerant and not offensive. In other words, defenseless. Smile wide and wish them well, say

01:42:13

God bless them. So they'll think as well as they head to hell. I fell into deception early on in my

01:42:19

Christian walk. Perception of evangelism was live it out and never talk. Our nation is killed.