August 22, 2019 Show with Brent Ward on “The Sign Gifts: God’s Original Purpose for Them in the Apostolic Era”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Introduction to Brent Ward and IRBS Theological Seminary

Good afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 22nd day of August 2019.

Any of our listeners who listened to the program yesterday? Know that Brent Ward who was our guest yesterday is returning. As our guest today a two-day in a row interview with Brent Ward. And we are changing the subject however today we are going to be discussing the sign gifts God's original purpose for them in the apostolic era and.

Just to let you know a little bit more about Brent Ward. He is a former charismatic raised in the word of faith movement. He's a former army 82nd Airborne paratrooper and a Gulf War veteran and currently director of development at IRB s theological seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second day for another interview Brent Ward. So glad to be here Chris. Thank you, and if you could once again for our listeners who missed yesterday.

Tell them about IRB s theological seminary and and also what you do as director of development.

Absolutely. So I RBS theological seminary is based out of Mansfield Texel seminary founded on confessional reform Baptist distinctives. We were established training men for the work of spreading the gospel.

What we do is we offer several different programs. A master divinity is a hundred and ten hour program designed to be completed in residence in three years. Then we have a masters of arts and religion.

That's a 70 to 72 hour program. That one's designed to be completed in two years. That one's not intended really to serve as preparation for gospel ministry. And then for those have that are currently pastors or in the ministry.

And they really just can't that amount of time to get one. We do have a certain reform Baptist studies. They want to know a little bit more. Get a little bit more in-depth. Reform Baptist designed to supplement their minister or administrator is what I do.

I'm the director of development and based on profit setting money, but I believe that I'm looking more than just raising funds. The ideal is to find structure until I got a my pleasure and anybody who wants to look up their website.

It is IRB s seminary org IRB s Seminary org and my guests. My guest signal or phone connection broke up a little bit when he was giving his email address. It's giving at IRB s seminary org giving g IV ing IRB s seminary org.

You had Began the program yesterday since you were a first-time guest as. You gave your testimony your summary of your salvation testimony, which is a tradition that we have here in our interprets on radio and.

Since this is a completely different subject today that heavily involves your testimony I would like you to repeat some of the crucial details that involve you're being raised in the word of faith Pentecostal movement.

Absolutely. It's a great way to kind of start up in the charismatic movement in base and basically. If I if I can just speak to that. Okay, the belief in faith of like EW Kenyon. Sure in character of attributes of that.

He was all you know, not just word of faith, but the prosperity gospel. I just want to challenge you not because I love you and I want you to know that we feel. It's not based upon any covenant. You know, I was nervous older uh one that uh, and I would say even as I really is easy Word way and you you know Looking at these things and maybe ask it in regards to the true nature of I think about Uh issues like uh the church when she gathers together corporately.

Because I you know, I've been I need to be moved and say it this way. I'm and and ordinary means of. Are you there brother?

Yeah, I think I did. I cut out on you. I apologize. Uh, yeah, you just sounded like you dropped something I don't know.

Okay. Well in in addition, you know, I I think that once again, you know. Coming back to the ordinary means of grace sitting under god's word sit prayer the measurement of uh, you know, um. Individual before major issues that directly affect us depending on how we view.

Yes, absolutely.

And one thing I wanted to make clear. Uh, you were talking about our discussion being on second tier issues but isn't there a huge difference between addressing the charismatic or pentecostal movement as a second tier issue.

And discussing the word of faith movement as a second tier issue. That seems to be uh cutting too close to uh. Softening the seriousness of the heresy involved.

No, I think that that's a very good point and uh, and I don't mean to lump them together. I think that. And you are correct as far as your last statement.

There's a difference obviously between a true christian who is Somehow caught up in a word of faith church or movement. He may be genuinely regenerate, but he hasn't really come to understand the depth of the heresies.

They believe and teach. And then the person obviously will eventually be drawn out. So what. What i'm basically saying by that. Is do you think it? Could be rightfully said That not every single person who's a member of a word of faith church or who has some word of faith televangelists as their heroes is automatically Unregenerate damned reprobate, etc, etc.

There could be some true believers within them. That just haven't it hasn't dawned on them yet. The seriousness of the errors being taught.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I I believe that I would use the word illumine that you know. There needs to be uh, maybe further maturity some some continued illumination. Of uh of god's perfect revelation if you will um in terms of the scripture.

And uh, and I but I do believe that uh that they will be uh brought or taken out if you will. As they begin to mature and understand what they are in. And that could be said of any cult. Uh or false movement is kindness love and mercy.

And one within these movements I just don't think. And one thing I i'd like to remind our listeners about.

You are a living example. My friend. John sampson Of who's the pastor of king's church in peoria, arizona is a living example costy hinn who is a uh. He is the or a nephew of the notorious heretic benny hinn Raised in the word of faith movement and came out of it.

He is a living example that uh, there are The elect among even the most crazy and heretical and blasphemous of religious cults uh, and I think that sometimes Perhaps even especially uh, if we are reformed in our Theology or perhaps more fundamentalist uh we may immediately discount Someone that we meet who is a word of faith a believer and even a pastor As beyond hope and we don't even bother giving the gospel to them.

We don't even bother Evangelizing them. We don't even bother treating them in love and compassion And bother taking the time to reach them with the truth because we just think there's no hope for that person.

We I mean not saying all of us do but I think that Many of us in fact, I think that I on occasion have that in my head when i'm speaking to somebody Who is that far off in heresy, but it's uh, obvious that all of the men that I had listed including you uh were Drawn out of that by the mercy and grace of god.

Kindness and I think being mindful of that that Um, we are to be kind and loving and basically against somebody who isn't going to work and i'm not trying to win. I don't think that that is a good way to love our cures.

One thing I wanted to have you.

Clarify I because I don't think that you mentioned it in some of your description of the key heresies of the word of faith movement. But is it not true. And it may not be universally true amongst all who wear that name word of faith.

But is it not uh very often true that word of faith leaders. Believe that jesus christ actually became a demonic figure on the cross. And that he suffered uh the torment of demons in hell after dying.

And that he became a born-again man, in fact the very first born-again man, I think kenneth copeland phrased it that way in hell.

Yeah, I don't know. It may be an over is not my god.

And i'm going to give our email address for any of our listeners who want to join us with a question of their own. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state.

And your country of residence if you live outside of the usa uh, and uh, please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you're Asking about for instance, you might be in the word of faith movement yourself right now.

You don't want to identify yourself. I understand that you might be a pastor in the word of faith movement and you're starting to Have your own doubts as I already listed a number of people who were pastors In the word of faith movement who were delivered by christ, whatever the case may be.

I understand if it's a personal and private matter like that that you would want to remain anonymous possibly but If it's not a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name. Your city and state and your country of residence.

In fact, what i'm going to do Is i'm going to take our first break right now. And uh Keep in mind, uh that uh, you might have family friends and loved ones that Are in the word of faith movement and you want them to listen to this show.

Well, why don't you during this break call them up or email them or text them? And tell them to tune in at ironsharpensironradio .com. And then uh, they can just click live stream it and they'll be able to hear it along with you.

And I hope that you do that and don't go away. We're gonna we're gonna be right back after these messages with more brent ward and our discussion on the The gifts the signed gifts and the hello.

My name is james renahan and i'm the president of irvs theological seminary in mansfield, texas. The word of god says if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve jesus christ in pastoral ministry?

20 years ago the institute of reformed baptist studies at west minster seminary, california was born. For those two decades these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in reformed baptist churches.

It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses. Leading to the master of divinity degree. This is irbs theological seminary.

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And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune god in all things. Irbs theological seminary is dedicated by god's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve jesus christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider irbs theological seminary? You'll find more information at irbs seminary .org. That's irbs seminary .org. Two s's in the middle.

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The Nature of the Word of Faith Movement and Its Heresies

Welcome back. This is chris arnson. Our guest today is brent ward. He is director of development at irbs theological seminary in mansfield, texas. And today we are discussing the theme. The sign gifts and god's original purpose for them.

In the apostolic era. And if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. C-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And please give us your first name.

At least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And by the way a reminder folks, even if you have sent in questions before please always give your city and state or country of residence when you send in an email because I don't remember these things infallibly.

And we like to give our listeners an idea of the broad scope of places from which our listeners reside and Where these questions are coming from. So please always remember to send in. Your city and state of residence in your country of residence no matter how many times you've sent in emails to me.

Unless of course you're remaining anonymous and uh brent, uh. Unless you want to say anything else about the specific word of faith movement, which is an extreme and damnable heresy uh. Or which contains extreme and damnable heresies uh, let me know when you'd like to transition now into the actual sign gifts, which are believed to be uh perpetual uh, even in the 21st century.

And some of our brothers and sisters and friends who believe in this are not obviously uh in that very seriously heretical and blasphemous category.

So I guess I would like to uh, just major concern that I have is this idea of guaranteed physical healing. Um and guaranteed prosperity, you know that this is a major tenet. I am guaranteed Physical healing on this side of heaven.

It's a eschatology. I think uh, it is not guaranteed in scripture to be not the case. Oh, it doesn't turn out. You can quickly that.

Yes, and unfortunately, especially the uh idea of an obedient christian.

Always.

Being guaranteed health. And being delivered or healed from illness and disability, etc. Unfortunately that one aspect of the word of faith movement exists far too often amongst Other mainstream charismatic and pentecostals and it's not in every congregation.

I'm not trying to broad brush. But what whereas you might have many charismatic churches not teaching That every christian will be wealthy the the idea of healing seems to be more prominent even amongst uh, the more orthodox Charismatic and pentecostals.

Would I be right in saying that?

You are right, uh, absolutely. And and what was said to me is how it affects individual people's faith. Have been diagnosed with a malady or a major, uh, their toll is because that we're just broken. And we you know, if anything man, they need to be able to latch on and depend upon christ.

Yes when I was a.

Man in my 20s uh doing some searching, uh I was not yet regenerate, but I was investigating different religions and cults And denominations and so on. Uh, one of the churches that I started attending regularly That I believe that the lord used greatly to eventually Bring me to a saving faith in christ, which I which I think that that point actually happened, I believe when I was Attending a reformed baptist church where I eventually was baptized and where I where I joined but before that there was a pentecostal church that I was regularly attending at least for Six to eight months, I believe.

And the the pastor would teach that if you are not healed you have Unconfessed sin or your faith is not strong enough. And the thing that was baffling to me about that is that the man had a deformed hand.

So, uh, I just could never understand for the life of me that he could not see the contradiction and the Oxymoronic teaching of that while he had a very noticeable disability and uh, but anyway um It is it is indeed said and I have heard horror stories as well from people who have been Uh ostracized and become outcasts in their charismatic and pentecostal churches because They had come down with a disease and were told that their faith was not strong enough where they had unconfessed sin now once again There are thousands of congregations.

I'm sure that are not like that. I know Charismatic pastors who are even five-point calvinists uh, my friend my dear friend al stein of the neighborhood assembly of god in Belmore long island new york who went home to be with the lord A couple of years ago after a tragic automobile accident.

Uh, he uh was a very sound man in many aspects. He was just not a cessationist. But he had become a five-point calvinist before he left this planet and my friend jim capo who is still with us. A pastor of the massapequa church of god is a five-point calvinist and would never tell anybody In his church of god congregation, that's a church of god cleveland, tennessee denomination, um Pentecostal he would not even categorize himself as pentecostal anymore.

But he would never tell anybody in his uh In his assembly that so we have to make sure that we're not broad brushing everybody.

Tongues, Prophecy, and the Purpose of Sign Gifts

Yeah, I don't want to make an overstatement. Uh, I I will say this, you know, and it could be an extreme to a you don't even have to take all right.

Uh, I have a listener that I think. Has three questions that are really excellent questions to help guide our conversation. We have casey in canapolis, north carolina. His first question is based on scripture.

How does your definition of tongues and prophecy differ? From the definition given by a continuationist scholar.

That is a great question, so thank you casey, uh for for asking that question. I believe that what we have to see is that uh. No matter where you are at in the position that tongues are going to cease.

Um.

And so. It is interesting, you know as we as we come to scripture and we can we can look at that in terms of first corinthians. I know uh in verse eight is love never ends. We know in part we prophesy in part but when the perfect comes the part of scripture tells us.

But and whether I you know, I I used to be on the other side and uh, and so then we have to ask.

Is.

What was the intention? What was the intention of god for the uh. For the gift of tongues. And has that uh been met has that uh been accomplished and so. Um, I want to. I do want to get that a little bit of that in a fuller view.

But before I do that if it's all right, chris, uh, you said he had several questions. So I don't want to get ahead of myself. Maybe we could. I'll come back to that a little bit more fuller.

Um. What's his other question? Okay. Let me go back to his questions. Uh was looking at another question that had just come in. Let's see here we have casey's second question if new testament prophecy is always supposed to be scripture quality revelation Why and how did non-apostolic christians operate in this gift?

And why were their revelations? not recorded down in the canon of scripture, so obviously those just general christians that were uh living and Practicing their faith. They weren't apostolic. They or they they were not apostles.

I should say they Right, they didn't contribute to the god-breathed words of the inerrant scripture Uh that later became a part of the canon. So tell us about that.

Elijah and elisha were never written down. Um, I believe that that our prophets that we know that the army is. About the redemption clearly in his purpose that he didn't. Okay.

And his third question is and this is something that i've heard from many pentecostals over the years. But I really haven't had much specific Documented historic proof of it, but he asks What do you do with the many testimonies of those in the early church some of the reformers?

Many puritans many of those in the first great awakening and even an event in the life of charles spurgeon on the continuation Of the miraculous and appearances of the gifts of the spirit like words of knowledge and prophecy.

It is a good question. I you know, I I stroke experiences. Of one i'm not being be altered um, and the validity that I do know and that is uh, it has been given to us and uh. If we were to do um. You know john smith and you know his golden tablets.

Well, was that valid? You know what to to give uh, god's saying what was his intended purpose in cards to one thing that.

Uh casey may be referring to That I have even heard Reformed and cessationist pastors bring up in sermons or lectures. Was During the execution of john huss in the 15th century. Uh, he is recorded to have said now we will cook the goose.

Yes replied huss, but there will be there will come An eagle in a hundred years that you will not reach. And that is taken by many to be a prophecy of martin luther's Uh coming on the scene arriving on the scene a century later in the 16th century, uh when he nailed his 95 theses to the church door at wittenberg, etc.

I mean, what do you make of things like that? So the validity of calling that prophecy? And I don't know if you would call it prophecy as defined by script. Well, thank you very much casey.

Uh, and uh, keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word about the program. In north carolina and beyond we're going to our midway break right now. It's a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us this midway break.

So that they can air their own commercials and public service announcements. Uh from the lake city florida area to localize this program To that part of the country that is an fcc regulation that radio stations localize their programming.

So while they are airing their own public service announcements, and we are airing our own globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently Patronize them.

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So please Write down the information they provide patronize them as much as possible. And also use this time to send in a question to brent ward about the sign gifts and their original purpose of god in the apostolic era.

Send that uh those emails I should say to chris arnson at gmail .com. Chris arnson at gmail .com. Please as always give us your first name uh and your city and state of residence and your country of residence and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

So don't go away. God willing we're going to be back momentarily. After these words of our sponsors and more of our discussion. With brent ward. We're hoping that you are enjoying this program and being blessed.

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James white of alpha and omega ministries and the dividing line. Webcast here. Although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues Some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen.

And the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island, new york. I've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions.

Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught Discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ.

I also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for their recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co-elder pastor christopher mcdowell. For more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li dot net.

That's hope reformed li dot net or call six three one six nine six five seven one one. That's six three one six nine six five seven one one. Tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron.

Radio. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb.

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