August 22, 2019 Show with Brent Ward on “The Sign Gifts: God’s Original Purpose for Them in the Apostolic Era”

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August 23, 2019

August 22, 2019 BRENT WARD, former charismatic raised in the Word of Faith movement, former Army 82nd Airborne Paratrooper & a Gulf War veteran, & currently Director of Development @ IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, who will address: “The SIGN GIFTS: GOD’s ORIGINAL PURPOSE For Them in The APOSTOLIC ERA”

00:05: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:19: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 22nd day of August 2019.
01:29: Any of our listeners who listened to the program yesterday know that Brent Ward, who was our guest yesterday, is returning as our guest today.
01:39: A two -day -in -a -row interview with Brent Ward, and we are changing the subject, however.
01:47: Today we are going to be discussing the sign gifts, God's original purpose for them in the apostolic era.
01:54: And just to let you know a little bit more about Brent Ward, he is a former charismatic, raised in the
02:00: Word of Faith movement. He is a former Army 82nd Airborne paratrooper, and a
02:06: Gulf War veteran, and currently Director of Development at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
02:14: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second day for another interview, Brent Ward.
02:20: So glad to be here, Chris. Thank you. And if you could, once again, for our listeners who missed yesterday, tell them about IRBS Theological Seminary, and also what you do as Director of Development.
02:33: Absolutely. So IRBS Theological Seminary is based out of Mansfield, Texas. We are a full residential seminary founded on Confessional Reformed Baptist distinctives.
02:46: We were established primarily in training men for the work of spreading the
02:51: Gospel around the world. What we do is we offer several different programs.
02:57: Master of Divinity is a 110 -hour program designed to be completed in residence in three years.
03:05: Then we have Masters of Arts in Religion. That's a 72 -hour program.
03:11: That one's designed to be completed in two years also in residence.
03:16: And this degree, that one's not intended really to serve as preparation for Gospel ministry. And then for those that are currently pastors or in the ministry and they really just can't really establish that amount of time to get one, we do have a certificate program,
03:34: Certificate in Reformed Baptist Studies. They want to know a little bit more, get a little bit more in -depth in regards to Reformed Baptist distinctives as a 16 -hour program designed to supplement their ministral studies that they already have.
03:54: We're really excited to be able to offer those. You can contact me personally at giving at irsseminary .org
04:03: if you have any questions, or our administrator is Matt Stoll. In terms of what
04:10: I do, I'm the Director of Development, and basically that's a fancy term here in the nonprofit sector of raising money.
04:20: But I believe that I'm looking more than just raising funds. The idea is to find strategic partners that believe in what we are doing in the advancement of the
04:30: Gospel and seeing how we can fit to serve one another in that regard.
04:38: I'm sorry, I was just going to say, I feel like I got the best job on campus, because I get to talk to a lot of wonderful individuals that believe in what we're doing.
04:48: I appreciate your participation in pushing us further,
04:54: Chris. Thank you. My pleasure, and anybody who wants to look up their website, it is irbsseminary .org
05:02: irbsseminary .org and my guest's signal, or phone connection broke up a little bit when he was giving his email address.
05:12: It's giving at irbsseminary .org giving, G -I -V -I -N -G irbsseminary .org.
05:22: You had began the program yesterday, since you were a first -time guest, as you gave your testimony, a summary of your salvation testimony, which is a tradition that we have here on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.
05:38: Since this is a completely different subject today that heavily involves your testimony,
05:44: I would like you to repeat some of the crucial details that involve your being raised in the Word of Faith Pentecostal movement.
05:52: Absolutely. It's a great way to kind of start off. I was brought up in the
05:59: Charismatic movement, in particular the stream Word of Faith, and basically, if I can just speak to that, okay, the
06:08: Word of Faith isn't faith in Christ. This is a movement that places faith in faith.
06:16: In other words, your words have the power to accomplish certain things, and I'm not going to get really into the history of that, but basically it really comes out of new thought.
06:33: When you start thinking of E .W. Kinyon and what had taken place with him and how he adopted it from a non -Christian perspective, and then you've got other
06:46: Word of Faith men that basically took from E .W. Kinyon and developed a theology around it, it affects a lot of different aspects in terms of it affects the nature and character of God in a non -typical way.
07:07: It describes the attributes of the Father as having actual physical parts.
07:15: It affects in regards to redemption, that Christ actually went to Gehenna, went to Hell itself, and faced torment, that he was also not...let's
07:32: just say he was inferior to God the Father, and so there's a lot of implications there that are heretical and one of major concern.
07:43: And so I was brought up with that, and I think that not just Word of Faith, but the prosperity gospel and the charismatic movement as a whole,
07:53: I think the concern that I would have, and if you are charismatic I just want to challenge you, because I love you and I want you to know that, that we don't look at the nature or character or work of God based upon how we feel.
08:10: It's not based upon an experience, it's based upon what
08:15: God has communicated and revealed about himself in Scripture, and what we must believe about him and what he has accomplished for us, and placing our faith in the work of the
08:31: Lord Jesus Christ, and not our faith in faith, if I could say it that way.
08:38: We do not have the power to create in that manner. I cannot speak anything into existence.
08:45: I'm not able to speak my own healing, and I don't believe that we see that in Scripture.
08:54: And so any time you have a focal point or a teaching that demotes the power of Christ and promotes the power of man, that should be really a big flag.
09:09: And so that being said, coming out of that as I, here
09:15: I was, just prior to actually entering as a student at a charismatic
09:20: Bible college, I was cutting my teeth on some Reformed theology, and I was reading
09:28: Calvin and Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, a contemporary,
09:34: John MacArthur, and I started coming across a couple books that, you know, I was nervous, but I read them anyway.
09:41: And a couple that I think that at least got me thinking about some of these things, honestly.
09:49: John MacArthur has one, Chris, you're probably familiar with this older, Charismatic Chaos. But I would say that the one that really influenced me was
10:01: O. Palmer Robertson's The Final Word, was just a really wonderful, wonderful book, a biblical response to the case for tongues and prophecy.
10:13: And so these are some books that challenged me, and ultimately drove me to the
10:19: Scripture, and I would say even as I, in my sanctification, my walk as I'm growing with the
10:27: Lord and going to the Scripture, the more that you turn to Scripture, what you'll find is that it truly is the final authority, that it does give us everything for life and for godliness.
10:40: And what I found is that any kind of movement that takes me away, or tries to move me away from that, or from Scripture that is, affects or stunts our
10:55: Christian growth and maturity. And so during that time as I'm wrestling through that, it was a long thing.
11:05: I mean, I was agonizing over this, and so I understand that it's not easy when you've been brought up a certain way, and you're coming to a realization that, man, what
11:18: I have been believing all my life, or at least been brought up in all my life, is wrong.
11:24: It's error. And in the case of the Word of Faith movement, it is heresy. And so I know that to come to terms with that is very difficult, but I believe that the
11:35: Lord is kind, and the Lord is gracious. And if you come and approach the
11:41: Scriptures with integrity and truly study and start looking at these things, and maybe asking some very probing questions in regards to the true nature of those revelatory gifts in terms of its practice and why they served and do those things still apply today,
12:05: I think that's at least a good launching point, a good starting point. And so I do believe that it is a second -tier issue, and I mentioned that yesterday, but I do believe that it's crucial.
12:18: I think it's important in terms of a second -tier issue, because it affects what you and I believe about God and really the role of the
12:26: Church. And in Christian mind, I'm just going to continue just in terms of I think about issues like the intention of the
12:35: Church when she gathers together corporately, because I've been in those services.
12:43: I've been in a lot of those services where it's about us intuiting God. I've got to feel something.
12:50: I need to be moved. And honestly, if I could say it this way, and I know it's a strong word, even manipulated in terms of, you know, getting liver shivers, you know, getting the goosebumps, if you will, and somehow or another this is the measurement of spirituality or the measurement of maturity on a worship service, and it doesn't promote the glory of God.
13:16: It diminishes it, because it makes it man -centered. It doesn't make it about my need for Christ, my need to believe in what
13:25: He has accomplished, and who I am as a sinner. My need to live in light of Him in repentant faith and be encouraged in the
13:36: Gospel. So I think that that is diminished when a lot of these services are gathering corporately, as opposed to sitting under the ordinary means of grace.
13:49: The preached word is a powerful thing. Are you there, brother?
14:00: Yeah, did I cut out on you? I apologize. Yeah, you just sounded like you dropped something.
14:06: Okay, well, in addition, I think that once again this position, where you're at, it affects our
14:17: Christian growth, right? Our maturity. What are we looking for?
14:23: And coming back to the ordinary means of grace, sitting under God's Word, sitting and participating in the
14:29: Lord's Supper, the Lord's Table, and all that that means in regards to what
14:35: Christ has done for the sinner. In terms of even viewing baptism as a means of grace, and in corporate prayer, these things are things that should be focused, or at least be the focal point of the church as she gathers, and not necessarily laser lights, a smoke machine, and ooey -gooey goosebumps.
15:00: That's not a measurement of a good church. That's not the measurement of the church at all.
15:07: And so I think that us looking at these issues and how it affects different places within the church and what we believe about God is vital.
15:19: I believe that, you know, what I have seen is in regards to the role of Scripture in the life of a believer.
15:27: I have known people to travel hundreds of miles to go listen to what they thought was a prophet, and that they would go and do that, they would go and listen to that individual before they would crack open the
15:42: Bible and actually read what God has clearly communicated about Himself and what
15:50: He requires of us in terms of belief and faith. And so I think these are all major issues that directly affect us depending on how we view the revelatory gifts, if that makes sense.
16:05: Yes, absolutely. And one thing I wanted to make clear, you were talking about our discussion being on second tier issues, but isn't there a huge difference between addressing the
16:19: Charismatic or Pentecostal movement as a second tier issue and discussing the Word of Faith movement as a second tier issue?
16:25: That seems to be cutting too close to softening the seriousness of the heresy involved.
16:34: No, I think that that's a very good point, and I don't mean to lump them together.
16:39: I think that, and you are correct, we'll be clear that when
16:44: I'm talking about a second tier issue, I'm talking about our view of the revelatory gifts.
16:51: I am not referencing in regards to the Word of Faith. To hold to the tenets of the
16:57: Word of Faith movement is to hold to heresy. And those are damnable.
17:03: You cannot hold to what those men hold to and find salvation.
17:09: And it's not that you can't be saved out of those things, it's just you can't hold to the tenets that these men teach and practice.
17:21: That can't be. And so I'm glad that you brought that clarity up, Chris. And as far as your last statement, there's a difference, obviously, between a true
17:35: Christian who is somehow caught up in a Word of Faith church or movement.
17:42: He may be genuinely regenerate, but he hasn't really come to understand the depth of the heresies they believe and teach.
17:50: And then the person, obviously, will eventually be drawn out. So what I'm basically saying by that is, do you think it could be rightfully said that not every single person who's a member of a
18:02: Word of Faith church, or who has some Word of Faith televangelist as their heroes, is automatically unregenerate, damned, reprobate, etc.,
18:13: etc.? There could be some true believers within them that just haven't it hasn't dawned on them yet the seriousness of the errors being taught.
18:22: I agree with that wholeheartedly. I believe that I would use the word illumine. There needs to be maybe further maturity, some continued illumination of God's perfect revelation, if you will, in terms of the
18:37: Scripture. But I do believe that they will be brought or taken out, if you will, as they begin to mature and understand what they are in.
18:50: And that could be said of any cult or false movement outside of Christianity.
18:56: You know, God could certainly show His kindness, love, and mercy and regenerate the heart of someone within these movements.
19:06: I just don't think that they would stay in it for the long haul. And one thing
19:12: I'd like to remind our listeners about, you are a living example. My friend
19:17: John Sampson, who is the pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, is a living example.
19:23: Kosti Hinn, who is the, or a nephew of the notorious heretic
19:31: Benny Hinn, raised in the Word of Faith movement and came out of it, he is a living example that there are the elect among even the most crazy and heretical and blasphemous of religious cults.
19:47: And I think that sometimes, perhaps even especially, if we are
19:53: Reformed in our theology, or perhaps more fundamentalist, we may immediately discount someone that we meet who is a
20:05: Word of Faith believer and even a pastor as beyond hope. And we don't even bother giving the
20:12: Gospel to them. We don't even bother evangelizing them. We don't even bother treating them in love and compassion and bother taking the time to reach them with the truth.
20:24: Because we just think there's no hope for that person. Not saying all of us do, but I think that many of us, in fact,
20:30: I think that I, on occasion, have that in my head when I'm speaking to somebody who is that far off in heresy.
20:37: But it's obvious that all of the men that I have listed, including you, were drawn out of that by the mercy and grace of God.
20:49: Absolutely. It is the Lord's kindness. And I think being mindful of that, that we are to be kind and loving, and at the same time be bearers of truth in a kind way.
21:02: I don't think me coming militaristically against somebody isn't going to work, and I'm not trying to win a debate on Facebook.
21:14: I don't think that that is a good way to love our charismatic or even Word of Faith friends.
21:22: I believe that taking great care and being very clear in our communication, taking them to the
21:29: Scriptures, and compelling them to reason with us with the
21:35: Scriptures, as opposed to maybe, say, an experience that they have had. Because an experience is not a true measurement of truth.
21:45: One thing I wanted to have you clarify, because I don't think that you mentioned it in some of your description of the key heresies of the
21:55: Word of Faith movement, but is it not true, and it may not be universally true amongst all who wear that name,
22:01: Word of Faith, but is it not very often true that Word of Faith leaders believe that Jesus Christ actually became a demonic figure on the cross, and that he suffered the torment of demons in hell after dying, and that he became a born -again man, in fact, the very first born -again man
22:26: I think Kenneth Copeland phrased it that way, in hell? Yeah, I don't know.
22:32: It may be an overstatement. I'm not sure, and obviously can't speak to it in terms of what all of them believe that, but I would say that for quite a few of them, that is a major tenet.
22:44: We're not talking about... Well, let me say it this way. When you understand the immutability of God, I mean, the unchangeableness of God, then you'll begin to understand that there is no way that Christ could become a demoniac.
23:07: He was, even on the cross, he was the spotless
23:14: Lamb of God. He never changed his character. Our sin that was passed to him was imputed to him the same way that his righteousness has been imputed to us.
23:28: And when his words on the cross, it is finished, it is truly finished.
23:33: He faced zero time in Gihanna. He did not face any time facing torment in hell.
23:41: He was not in any way tormented by the demons. Hell has been created by God in reserve for Satan and demons and fallen humanity.
23:53: The devil has no authority there whatsoever. Great. And I'm going to give our email address for any of our listeners who want to join us with a question of their own.
24:03: chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the
24:15: USA. And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you're asking about.
24:25: For instance, you might be in the Word of Faith movement yourself right now. You don't want to identify yourself.
24:30: I understand that. You might be a pastor in the Word of Faith movement and you're starting to have your own doubts, as I already listed a number of people who were pastors in the
24:41: Word of Faith movement who were delivered by Christ. Whatever the case may be, I understand if it's a personal and private matter like that that you would want to remain anonymous possibly, but if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.
24:58: In fact, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take our first break right now and keep in mind that you might have family, friends, and loved ones that are in the
25:14: Word of Faith movement and you want them to listen to this show. Well, why don't you during this break call them up, or email them, or text them, and tell them to tune in at ironsharpensironradio .com
25:27: and then they can just click live stream it and they'll be able to hear it along with you.
25:33: And I hope that you do that and don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Brent Ward and our discussion on the gifts, the signed gifts, and the...
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