#64 What Most Christians Miss About the Transfiguration + Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer

Have you ever skimmed through the transfiguration when you're reading your Bible? This isn't just a weird story.

That is a preview of the kingdom of God coming with power. It seems like the whole

Bible summarized in just a single event. If we didn't have the transfiguration and the story of Jesus, we'd be missing something really important.

We'd be missing the climax of the story of Jesus' self -revelation.

What are we yet to see? What is it preparing us for? Hello, hello.

Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the

Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding

God easier. These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion.

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Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello, and welcome to Biblically Speaking.

My name is Cassian Blino, and I'm your host. I wanna start off with a question is, have you ever skimmed through the

Transfiguration when you're reading your Bible? Anything about that kind of confuse you, pop up? Maybe it's that strange moment, for those that haven't skimmed it, where Jesus shines like the sun, two dead prophets show up, and then

God speaks again, which if you didn't know, that's the second time of the one of two options that he does speak with in the

Bible. Why is this in the Bible? What does it mean? What is the greater purpose other than dead people showing up and Jesus's face shining?

I mean, all of those are amazing, but is there something deeper here that we're just not picking up when we read it?

I mean, the Bible's amazing, but nothing's not included because there's not a certain purpose.

So I just wanna spend some time today with an amazing guest, Dr. Kevin Van Hooser, who is one of the most respected voices in biblical theology today.

You have degrees in Westminster, Cambridge. You spent decades teaching at Wheaton Trinity and the

University of Edinburgh, and you're known for bridging scripture, doctrine, and culture in ways that are intellectually rich and grounded.

You don't ask just what the Bible's saying, but how we're meant to live it. Welcome to the show, Dr. Van Hooser.

I'm so excited to have you here to talk about the transfiguration. Thank you, and I'm glad to be here. I love the name of your show,

Biblically Speaking. In a sense, that's a way of talking about theology, biblically speaking about God and all things in relation to God.

Thank you. This whole thing is a gift from God, so any creative applause goes to him.

It does not come from me. Okay, how did we get here? How did you come to learn so much about the transfiguration?

What about this specific topic drew you in? Well, it came in the process of working on a book on biblical interpretation.

And it struck me that this event, unusual as it is, as you've already noted, is relevant in a way that maybe will become clearer as we continue our conversation about it.

I love when little excerpts that we think are like, oh, that was a one -off. It was so interesting and cool. It actually unlocks a huge portion of the

Bible. So I'm excited to see how that exactly does it today. It's not included in the book of John, but what happened on that mountain?

Because there's a bit of a difference between the three of them, and it's a depiction of it.

But what is the transfiguration in simple terms? Yeah, so the transfiguration is an

English word that translates a Greek word metamorpho. And we get our

English word metamorphosis from it. So we're dealing here not with the miracle of Jesus, but some kind of metamorphosis of Jesus.

And why is it in the gospel? Well, it happens on a mountain, and that's significant because anybody who's read through the

Bible knows that a lot of significant things happen on mountaintops.

Mountaintops are the traditional place where God makes himself known. And I think it's in our gospels because, well, it happened to some of the evangelists, the people who wrote the gospels.

And I think they realized it was a crucial event worth recording. So that's why it's there.

We haven't yet said what it means, but I think that's why it's there. It happened and people saw it and they wanted to pass on the news.

And they did so only after Jesus' death, though. That's also interesting. They didn't talk about this until after Jesus died?

Yeah, they kept it quiet. They say that in the gospel accounts, yeah.

In fact, in one gospel, Jesus tells them not to talk about it until he's risen from the dead.

Is that, why do you think that is? Do you think that was just something along the lines of, if you start telling people, then they'll know I'm the

Messiah and then my crucifixion will come too early? It's not that the crucifixion will come too early. I think that people will misunderstand what his particular mission as Messiah was.

And again, we're gonna get into that when we talk about where this comes in on the gospel story.

Okay, so including it in the gospels at all is really just kind of setting the groundwork for the crucifixion then?

Well, it does that, it does that, but it does a lot more. I mean, it's a crucial part of Jesus' story.

It's been neglected. People don't always understand why it's there. But I hope that during the course of this conversation, everybody's going to see just how central an event this is.

Absolutely, I want to just, for the readers that don't understand what the transfiguration is, but they're hooked in,

I'm gonna read one of the excerpts. Do you have a preference on which one you wanna read? Use Matthew, it's the first one.

Okay, so this is Matthew 17. After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, the brother of James, and led them up to a high mountain by themselves.

This is the NIV version. There he was transfigured before them, his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, Lord, is it good for us to be here?

If you wish, I will put up three shelters, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I love it, I love how proactive he is.

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, this is my son, whom I love, with all

I am well -pleased, listen to him. When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them.

Get up, he said, and don't be afraid. When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. As they were coming down the mountain,

Jesus instructed them, don't tell anyone what you've seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to be hiking down that mountain after that.

I'd be like, it would just be silence. It would just be awe and silence and just wonder and so many questions.

But you know, cameo from Elijah and Moses, what do you think of that? Is that possible within this realm for dead people to suddenly show up?

I mean, these are just my mere mortal, you know, earthly questions of, I didn't know that was possible. Well, with God, all things are possible.

So when we're talking to the theologian, I just have to say that, right? I mean, it's not possible in our natural world, right?

This does not happen naturally, but there's a lot that Jesus does that doesn't happen naturally.

I mean, we're reading about a figure who is the one through whom all natural things were created.

He's the author. He can do things that we can't do. And so I accept this on trust.

I believe the eyewitness testimony of the apostles because I don't have a good reason not to believe it.

So I'm gonna let what God does determine the range of what he can do.

That's really well said. Of course, when you say it, it makes sense. It's like, what a stupid question to ask. But once you say it, you're like, yeah.

Not at all. Okay, so let's get into the context of it. Where, like the transfiguration happens before the crucifixion.

This is Jesus hanging out with his apostles. Where's this sit for you in the flow of the gospels and the

Jesus story? Well, yeah, that's a great question. It's important and it's not just for me.

It's for every one of the evangelists. They all put it in the same spot and that's really important.

Briefly, Jesus has been trying to teach his disciples who he is and there's that famous episode where he asks them, who do you say that I am?

And they kind of tell him what other people are saying. But then finally, Peter, who I know you like.

Peter says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus congratulates

Peter. That's the right answer. But then right after that, Jesus predicts his death.

And resurrection. And then he says, this is just before the passage you read, right?

So this is in Matthew 16. He said, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see this kingdom of God after it has come with power.

And that's the moment where we shift and he asks Peter, James and John to go up with him on this high mountain.

So every one of the gospels has this story of who do you say that I am? Peter's confession.

And then that troubling saying of Jesus. But then also this promise that some of you who are with him are going to see the kingdom of God.

And so he does take them up onto this hill. And as we've read the passage, they see, well, what is it?

It's a light show. There are a lot of special effects. But they see light coming from the face of Jesus.

His clothes are shining. And I think the suggestion is that is a preview of the kingdom of God coming with power.

It could be just the resurrection that's envisioned. But I think there are signs in the text like the cloud and so on that indicate that really what they get a preview of is the end of history.

They get a preview of Jesus' second coming in glory. And so this is a very strategic placing in the story because they've announced that he is the

Christ. Then he says, but I have to die. And then he says, but you'll see the kingdom.

And then we have the transfiguration event. Is there significance that we're missing with who he chose to go up on the mountain with?

I don't know. I mean, Peter, James, and John are a trio that he often invites to come with him.

We don't know why he chose just those three. I think it is important that it was not just one disciple because we know from earlier in scripture that you need at least two witnesses to have a firm testimony.

And so to have three, that means the witness, this account that we're getting of the transfiguration is very reliable.

We have at least three witnesses. Where did that rule come into play with at least two witnesses? Oh, it's in the

Old Testament law because if someone accuses someone of doing something, you need to have at least two witnesses because otherwise you get into Salem witch trial scenario where if you don't like someone, you can say he did this or that, right?

And this is, I mean, this is good law practice. You probably need more than one witness if you're going to convict someone.

So it's in the Old Testament law. And again, it isn't explicit in the text, but you asked me why these three, and I'm saying it could be because the gospels are assuring us there's plenty of eyewitness testimony.

And by the way, just on that point, if I can go back to what happened,

I think it is important. It's important to remember that we have eyewitness testimony about this event.

You know, John, in his first epistle, he talks about what we have heard, seen with our eyes.

First John 1 .1. And then Peter, this is even better. I love this. Peter, in his second epistle, says this.

He says, we didn't follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our

Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. Then you wonder, when did they see his majesty?

And then Peter goes on to say, for when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was born to him by the majestic glory, this is my beloved son, we ourselves heard this very voice born from heaven for we were with him on the holy mountain.

Second Peter 16 to 18. So Peter, I mean, it doesn't get clearer than that, right?

This is eyewitness testimony. He said, we've seen it, we heard it. And so that's just important to remember.

This isn't just a weird story. We have eyewitness accounts. So that's important.

Thank you so much for mapping that out. This is one of the struggles as like, for me, a Sunday school Christian, where it's one of those like, okay, a lot of stuff is happening in the

Bible, but it's hard to keep track of it when you see it in the gospels and then you see it referenced in a future book.

It's just, it's so dead. So thank you for creating that very clear connection between the event itself.

Yeah, what's really impressive is that in earlier days, before people had computers and books and so on, the church fathers, the very earliest

Christians, they had so much scripture memorized that they could make the connections in their heads.

Right, right. So when they, so he didn't tell anybody about this though. So in the future, after the crucifixion, that's when they started talking about this transfiguration that later when they were calling their eyewitness accounts, people could remember,

I remember you talking about that after the resurrection. So this makes sense. Yeah, exactly.

I think it's just so interesting to interpret the word of God, within modern context of like, how that would have played out today.

It makes way more sense. You have the event, you cross -reference it in the future, but when you read the

Bible, for some reason it takes on this ancient veil of like, well, it was just different back then. And you're just, you're modernizing it for me.

So thank you. Good. Okay, so I think you've done a great job really mapping out that this is preparing them for kind of emblematic, emulating heaven, what's about to happen with the kingdom of heaven coming and Jesus showing his face and seeing

Elijah and Moses. You would say that this is preparing the disciples to, and us, to kind of understand what is to come, but they see what comes, they see the resurrection.

What are we yet to see? Like, what is it preparing us for? Well, so we've been talking about Jesus' transfiguration, right?

And that is a preview of coming attractions as it were, because the Lord is going to come to judge the heavens and the earth.

But it's also a preview of our destiny. And that's something we perhaps need to tease out a little bit.

And what I mean is this, remember I used that word metamorphosis, that's the word that is translated transfiguration.

So something happens to Jesus. It's not something he does, something happens to him. But that little word metamorphosis in Greek, it occurs only four times in the whole

New Testament, twice is in connection with Jesus' transfiguration, but there's another two times the same term is used.

And guess what? It's in connection with our transformation. Romans 12, two,

Paul is talking about being transformed by the renewing of our minds. That word transformed is the same one for transfigured.

So you could say, or read in Romans 12, we're being transfigured by the renewing of our minds.

And then also the last time we see this word metamorphosis is in 2

Corinthians 3 .18. And this is even clearer. It's a clear allusion to the

Jesus transfiguration. He says, all those who've turned to Christ in faith, all those who have the spirit of Christ, Paul says, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.

And the idea then is that the disciples, when we behold the shining face of Christ, when we behold it, we begin to reflect some of that glory.

And so Jesus' transfiguration is the ground of the hope that we too will be transformed.

As we're, we may have a little glory now, but we're gonna have a lot more in the new creation.

You know, Paul says we died with Christ. We've been raised with Christ. Let's just go ahead and say it.

We will be transfigured with Christ. So I don't think the transfiguration is a saving event.

That is, it's not the shedding of blood that forgives sins, but it is an event that gives us a preview of our salvation.

It doesn't make salvation possible. It makes salvation palpable. The transfiguration gives us a taste of the glory yet to come.

And again, this is not a weird sideline. If you look at Paul in Romans eight, when he talks about all the wonderful things we have in Christ, you know,

God calls, those he calls, he justifies, those he justifies, he, see there's something after justification.

Those he justifies, he glorifies. And Paul's this golden chain of what salvation consists in, it ends with glorification.

And so in that sense, transfiguration isn't some weird footnote to the story of Jesus.

It's the proper end of the whole story of the Bible. Because it reminds us that our future is going to be looking on the face of God, looking on the face of Christ and reflecting the glory of what we see in our own faces.

So this is pretty special. It's reflecting the glory that we'll see in our own faces after glorification.

Well, so yeah, we've skipped some bits here, but you know, so Jesus' face was shining, right?

Right. But the whole meeting on, you know, that cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, all of that is a repetition of something that's happened before.

In the Old Testament, Moses gets the law, the 10 commandments on a mountain.

Israel sins, they worship the golden calf. Moses destroys the law. He goes up and gets them a second time and wants to make sure that God will forgive

Israel and be with them. And at one point, Moses says, show me your glory.

And what happens then is that he converses with God for a while.

And when he comes down from the mountain, Moses' face is shining.

Moses' face. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah, and that's because he was in the presence of God.

He got a kind of divine sunburn because when you're in the presence of someone, you know, you kind of bask in their presence.

So Moses' face was shining and so much so that Israel was afraid to see it.

He had to put a veil. But here's the difference. Whereas Moses' face reflected or showed the effect of being in God's presence, in the transfiguration, the light is coming from Jesus' face.

You see, he's not reflecting the light. He's the source of the light.

And for a theologian like me, this is really important because what it's telling me is that Jesus is no mere man like Moses.

He's no mere prophet like Moses. He's greater than Moses because he's the long awaited

Messiah. He's an entirely different kind of son of God than Israel was.

So this is huge. You know, does that make sense?

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Take a breath, slow down, and dwell in the good things. Now, back to the show. You know, it didn't for a second, but then, because I couldn't understand when you were explaining what was in store for us, but seeing what was in store for Moses helps me understand the reflection of what glorification will look like reflected in my face.

So now that does make sense. And literally never thought any of these thoughts. So this is so amazing to connect.

Well, there's a, in the church tradition, and if you look at art from modern Europe, you know, in centuries, the medieval and afterwards, one of the things artists try to depict is what we call the beatific vision.

Because for centuries, the vision of the blessed God was thought to be, you know, the purpose of life, the end of salvation.

And so we might call it, I mean, I don't know how your listeners think about this, but in some sense, the transfiguration is a kind of beatific vision.

It's a vision of the glory of God that glorifies the one looking. It's, whoa, we gotta say that again slower.

It's a vision of the glory of God that glorifies the viewer. Yeah, because remember 2 Corinthians 3, 18,

Paul was saying that we're being transformed into this glory one degree at a time because we're in the presence of the

Lord. You can't be in the presence of the Lord and be unchanged. Remember Moses' shining face.

And so when we're in the presence of the Lord, that's a sanctifying presence.

And again, what is it to be saved? It's not just everlasting life, it's more than that.

It includes glorification. We're going to be what we were always created to be, not something other than human, but fully human like Jesus.

That's such a wild statement. Like this is what makes our faith so wild is that simply witnessing the glory of God sanctifies us.

Not works, not doing certain things, not rituals, not a gift from him personally, but just bearing witness to his glory in itself changes us.

Being in his presence, right? If we stay with Jesus long enough, we're going to become more and more like him.

And I think that's part of what's being said here. That's what Paul's on about in 2 Corinthians 3.

We're being changed. And because we have the spirit of Christ, we have him in us. He's a constant presence.

We're gradually being changed one degree at a time, from one degree of glory to greater glory.

And that's the hope, that we're not always going to be left with our own resources in our shame.

What do you mean by that last part? What do you mean left our own resources? Oh, just, you know, if I had to become a saint simply out of my own power, on my own steam,

I don't think I'd get very far, right? That's a really good point that he's actively playing a part in our sanctification as we spend time with him.

It's not really up to us to get to that level. Paul says, I've been crucified with Christ and the life

I now live in the flesh, I live by faith or I live by the one who lives through me. It's Christ who's in me and I'm living

Christ's life out. Got it. Okay, so you mentioned something earlier with regards to God speaking.

And I think one of the keynotes that when we were discussing this topic is that there's only two times that God speaks directly.

And one is at the baptism of Jesus and the other is at this moment. What is going on there?

Why is it only twice? Like, I think any common Christian like is probably shaking their head like, no, surely not.

Surely you're wrong. I'm sure God talks again, but you're doubling down that this is only two times.

That's pretty big deal. Yeah, I need to make a slight correction to what

I might've told you. There's actually three times, but still. Okay, okay. I'll tell you about the third one.

But what's important to note is that in the Old Testament, God talks a lot through the prophets, but often directly to people like Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, and often he talks on mountaintops.

I mean, just when Moses is there on Mount Sinai, he's there a long time, 40 days, taking down everything

God wants to say, his will for Israel, right? What we call the law. It's not just the 10 commandments.

But the point is in the New Testament, God speaks at Jesus' baptism.

He speaks here at Jesus' transfiguration. And then the one I didn't mention to you was in John 12,

Jesus is talking about how he'll glorify God's name by dying. And then

John 12, 28, a voice from heaven says, I have glorified it, my name, and I will glorify it again.

So those are the only three times. It's short, right? It's very brief. It's always in connection, by the way, with who

Jesus is or glory. And so that's important. Think about that. The only time

God speaks, he's really telling people that Jesus is his glory.

Just, I mean, for a parent, if you're really proud of a child, you might say, yeah, my son, he's my glory, because he's made my name, he makes my name great.

He makes me proud. Jesus is God's glory made flesh, because glory is simply a way of showing everything that you are, all your perfections.

The glory of God is simply his greatness shown.

That's glory. And the Bible uses symbolism of light to express this.

But the point is, the voice from heaven identifies Jesus as my beloved son in whom

I am well -pleased. He ends up being the glory of God made visible.

So that's amazing. And then the voice also says, this is my son, right?

And then it says, in whom I am, or with whom I am well -pleased. So listen to that.

God identifies who Jesus is, and then he kind of endorses what

Jesus does. He's the Messiah, and he's on a blessed mission.

So God only speaks directly from heaven on these three occasions, but it's really important because he's telling us who

Jesus is and what Jesus is all about. That's pretty important.

So that's also what interests me about the transfiguration. It must be important for God to have spoken at that event.

And then the last thing I'll say about the voice from heaven is that at the transfiguration, he says one more thing that he didn't say at Jesus' baptism.

And he adds this idea. He says, listen to him. You read it in the

Matthew reading. So the voice says, listen to him. That's important because as we've mentioned,

Jesus is with Moses and Elijah. And as you also mentioned,

Peter wants to make some kind of a shelter or a tent or some kind of celebratory thing for all three of them.

And that was his mistake. He thought that somehow they're equal. But because Moses represents the law,

Elijah represents the prophets, and then Jesus, who does he represent? Well, he represents the gospel, which is, yeah, the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

And that's why the voice from heaven says, listen to him, no longer

Moses, no longer Elijah, just Jesus. I wanna take a minute and say thank you to the recording service that has made this podcast possible,

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Thank you so much. Now back to the show. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

I, as the reader, of course you justify that that was the right move. Okay, I'm seeing something crazy. Let's create an alter for all three of them.

I'm just trying to do my respects. This is clearly a moment bigger than myself. And then you skim over, listen to him.

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, we shouldn't, we shouldn't. I mean, I hope that what your listeners are getting out of our discussion is that there's a lot in the

Bible, and it pays careful reading. You know, you read a good book once and you enjoy it, but a really great book, it actually calls for more than one reading because a really good book has more than you can kind of understand in a first reading.

Sometimes it's only when you get to the end that you go, oh my, I didn't see all that. And then you immediately want to go back and see all the, what do we call it?

The, not Christmas ornaments. What do you, Easter eggs. All the

Easter eggs. All the Easter eggs that the author left in. And there are lots of,

I guess this isn't, this isn't blasphemous. There are lots of Easter eggs in the

Bible. But how easily do we miss them?

But these types of conversations, that's such a, that's so, yeah, that's what this podcast is, is you guys pointing out those

Easter eggs to me because I miss them each time. Well, look, I took a class in high school on speed reading and I was taught that, you know, if you wanted to read well, you had to read fast for comprehension.

Okay, my advice would be do not speed read the Bible. In fact, maybe that'll be a new bumper sticker

I'll come up with. Do not speed read the Bible because, you know, we live in a culture that values efficiency and speed and so on, but sometimes it's really important to slow down, pay attention, stay awake, and make these connections that are so rich.

I feel like you've already mapped this out, but this transfiguration, it seems like the whole

Bible summarized in just a single event. It's very symbolic of what we kind of see throughout the

Bible, but it's like culmination is this moment, which is wild because I think any Christian would probably be like, no, the cross is, the cross is the culmination, that's the climax.

But this seems like almost like a micro climax, you know, leading up to the resurrection, like a false peak, if you might say, but would you say that this is the key to understanding the

Bible? Well, you know, that might be a bit strong. Again, there's a lot in scripture and you can trace different themes, but I do think this one's important because the idea of light is a very important biblical theme.

What's the first thing that God created in the beginning? And God said, let there be light.

And there was light. I think it's significant that that's the first thing God does.

What does light symbolize? It can symbolize holiness, but it also has come to symbolize truth.

We talk about the light of truth, you know, and I think what happens in Genesis, when

God says, let there be light, he's not talking about physical light because the sun is only created on day four.

It's a different kind of light. Yeah, is it? Well, pay attention. Hold on.

That's another. What are, what is this light? So this is more of like an energy lightness and goodness.

Okay, so yeah, I've actually looked into this and there are whole books written about theology and science and what is light.

It's actually kind of hard to define. It's some kind of electromagnetic radiation.

But again, I don't think that's what God, they're talking about when

God says, let there be light. I think he's saying, let the knowledge of who

I am spread through the universe, something like that.

God is saying, I'm going to make myself known. I am light. And how does light makes itself known?

By shining, right? Light from light for light. So the theme of light, and then if we just go on through the

Old Testament, Israel was supposed to be a light for the nations. Epic fail.

They didn't fulfill that task. So Jesus comes and he uses in John's gospel, he says,

I am the door and I am the resurrection. He also says, I am the light of the world.

So this is the climactic moment, not of our salvation, but of God making himself known.

That's why I think the transfiguration is so central. As a

Sunday school Christian, of course, I'm like, because his face was shining. It was a source of light, but it's different.

It's a different concept entirely. Am I, because again, I'm thinking of like a lamp.

I'm thinking of like a source of light. That's why their face was shining. But you're thinking like, that was a source of greatness of the glory of God.

Reflecting. Yeah, both. I mean, I think his face, something was literally happening to make the disciples, look at him in awe, but in Hebrews one, we're told that Jesus is the radiance of God, the exact representation of his being.

He's light from light. So he's making God known and he's also revealing who he is at the same time.

So the transfiguration is a kind of nodal point.

Many themes intersect in this event. Whoa. I never even like picked up on that concept of light.

And I feel like you've highlighted a really clear point that maybe people even pinpoint as like a contradiction within the word that like, how is it even possible that there was light first and then the sun later?

So that's what people have been discussing that for centuries. And it's not a contradiction, but you have to pay attention to the details in Genesis.

And one of those details is the sun and the moon are created on day four. So right from the beginning,

Christians have asked, so what was that light created on day one? And again, there's lots of suggestions.

I think the best suggestion is God's deciding to share who he is in himself, light, with something outside himself.

Let there be light. Let my light shine. That's what I think is happening in Genesis one, which makes sense because the whole rest of the

Bible is about how God makes himself known ultimately in Christ. Wow.

So many key points that I like do not inch over. I skim right over it, like you said, because I'm missing all of these.

So thank you for highlighting these. But when discussing details, there are nuances between the three gospels that record this interaction.

What are those subtle differences that you've picked up on that are notable? Yeah, it's not just me.

People have noticed this, but, you know, for example, in Matthew and Mark, they say it was six days after Peter's confession and this comment that some would not taste death until they saw the kingdom.

Matthew and Mark say it happened six days. Luke says it was after about eight days.

Ooh, what's going on here? You know, are the atheists right? Does the Bible contain a contradiction?

I don't think so. I think these numbers, though a very minor point, reflect the interest of the authors.

I think Matthew was thinking about the Old Testament because in Exodus 24, the glory cloud of the

Lord that rested on Mount Sinai was there for six days, we're told in Exodus 24.

And on the seventh day, Moses goes up into the cloud. That's interesting, right?

And then, so why does Luke say eight? Why does Luke say eight? Well, he says after about eight days.

So he's not, you know, it's not a literal contradiction, but he may be thinking of something else because in the early

Christian circles, the eighth day was often used as an image for the new creation, right?

God rests on the seventh day, but there's a new creation coming, right? When? Must be day eight.

So I'm not real sure about this, but my point is often what we have in the

Gospels, often what we have in the Gospels simply reflects the interests of the human authors and what they happen to be thinking of when they were writing their account of Jesus.

I mean, just think about if you and I saw a car accident and we had to give testimony,

I wonder if you and I would mention all the same details. You know, I might talk about the make of the car.

You may remember the color. Are we contradicting each other? I don't think so, you see?

So it's just a very human thing that witnesses will notice different details.

Especially with the Gospels sharing the same account of this is Jesus's life, here's many different interpretations.

I think that is like the biggest thought that we should hold in both hands of like these are gonna be different perspectives of the same story, but also within the entire

Bible, how do we approach these multifaceted perspectives over many courses of time with throughout like all geopolitical changes?

Are there other places in the Bible that we as Christians should be well aware of? This is a moment we need to not say pointing at it, look, contradiction, throw the whole thing out.

Well, again, this is a big discussion. People have pointed to different things and claimed that they were errors, but really the big question is, do you trust that these human authors were appointed spokesmen for the living

God? Because that's what the Bible claims it is, right? Peter and Paul claim that this is a

God -breathed text. It doesn't mean God used the human authors as puppets, but it means he used them in their individuality to say exactly what he wanted to say.

And again, Christians aren't dumb. The early Christians weren't dumb. They knew there were four

Gospels and they asked themselves, why four? And they gave a lot of answers, but I think everyone agrees that we have a richer account because of these four different perspectives.

Would you rather listen to a, what is it called? Monophone, not stereo, but is it monophone?

Maybe. With one speaker. Would you rather have one speaker, two speakers or quadraphonic, right?

The sound is better in quadraphonic speakers. So same with the Gospels.

Same with the Gospels. We've got four voices. They don't contradict. They compliment one another.

Just one other detail to cement this, about Jesus' face. Matthew says his face shone like the sun.

Luke says the appearance of his face was altered. Okay, that's different, but it's not a contradiction, right?

And they both agree that his clothes were shining white.

Dazzling white, says Luke. So again, they're just different ways of describing the same thing.

Okay, I like how you pointed that out and how you've justified this type of thing, because I think that is one of those traps that Christians find themselves in, because they don't know how to properly defend it or the apologetics for it.

So thank you for mapping that out. Okay, why haven't we talked about the transfiguration like this ever?

I feel like I've never heard a discussion like this in church. So is it, Protestants are avoiding it?

Like why isn't this so central in many church services, given that it's so central in the grander story of the

Bible? Yeah, great question. I was surprised as well when I looked into this.

To be fair, the Eastern tradition of the church, what we call the Orthodox, they pay a lot of attention to the transfiguration because they're very interested in seeing salvation as a glorification.

But the West has been more focused on the cross, as you mentioned earlier.

And if you look at the shape, the architecture of the great European cathedrals, they're always in the shape of a cross.

But in the East, the Orthodox churches are often circular with a dome.

And on the top of the dome, what do you have? Not a cross, you have Christ on the throne in his glory.

So in the East, the transfiguration is central. But in the

West, we focus on how we are saved through the cross, rather than the goal of salvation, the glory that we're going to have in the future.

I think that's one plausible explanation. Yeah, that's one plausible explanation.

Another explanation is, if you're reading quickly, or if you aren't paying attention, it's not clear how the transfiguration fits into the story of Jesus.

But I hope as my comments have shown, it really does fit for all sorts of reasons.

And then a third reason is, it doesn't seem to latch on to any specific doctrine.

Right, it doesn't seem to be part of the atonement. It's not clear if it's part of our understanding of who

God is, or ourselves. We don't know what to do with the transfiguration.

It's like, it's there, like our appendix, but what's it doing? What is our appendix doing there?

But let me say this. And it should be clear why I think this.

I think if we didn't have the transfiguration in the story of Jesus, we'd be missing something really important.

We'd be missing the climax of the story of Jesus' self -revelation.

Because this is where he comes clean and really shows himself to be who he is.

He's the king of the world. More than that, he's

God in the flesh. And we see the

God who is light from light in this transfiguration. Because this depiction of Jesus is not the same depiction we get after the cross.

Because I think some people, like some people might disagree and say, no, when he resurrected and he showed himself to the disciples risen, that was him showing that he was

God. Well, no. I mean, okay, good point, but does it?

What he shows is that he's alive again, but he still has the marks on his side.

So it shows that he's human. I'm not sure it shows he's God. You see the transfiguration does a better job at showing his glory.

Wow. We can talk about that. And I may need to think about this too. But I think my first impulse would be to say, that's not really what the resurrection does.

It's certainly important. We're right to celebrate Easter. I'm just wondering, does it really show that Jesus is

God? Whoa. I think earlier on you said that John's gospel doesn't mention the transfiguration.

And that may be another reason why people omit or neglect the transfiguration.

If it was important enough, wouldn't John have mentioned it? Let me just say this. Let me say this, because I've already said

John was an eyewitness, right? So why isn't it in his gospel? And I wanna suggest, well, it's not there as an event, because the whole gospel of John is a transfiguration narrative.

The whole gospel. That's such a good point. The whole gospel is about the glorification of Jesus.

I can take you through the whole gospel and point out some relevant scenery.

For example, in the prologue, when he's introducing the word who was going to become flesh, he says, the true light was coming into the world,

John 1 .9. And then a few verses later, he says, the word became flesh and we have seen his glory,

John 1 .14. So when did we see his glory? And then Jesus himself says in John's gospel,

I am the light of the world. And then, this is surprising too, but John's gospel speaks about Jesus being lifted up on the cross.

And when he says lifted up, he means exalted. So even the cross for John reveals the glory of God.

Oh my gosh. There is so much there. I'm still stuck on something you said like 10 points ago when you're like,

I think that Protestant churches, they idolize, you didn't say idolize, but I'm saying idolize the cross and what it does for us versus what it...

Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it's interesting that the Orthodox is focusing on the salvation and what happens and that shows that he's

God, but you're right. Just my experiences, cause I'm mostly Protestant, like ideally, yeah.

And I've gone to Orthodox church all of my life. The fact that we do like, it doesn't, we focus on the cross so much and I've seen and I've heard in Christian circles, like the cross is the beginning.

Like the cross isn't everything. That's the beginning of our faith. Yeah, I don't want anyone to feel like they have to pick sides,

East or West and never the twain shall meet. No, what I wanna say about that is what we've already said about the evangelists, right?

These are different witnesses, see different things. Why not see the Eastern church and the

Western church themselves as witnesses that bring valid points that could encourage the whole body of Christ, right?

We need to see both these things, keep the cross and the transfiguration, the suffering and the glory always together in our thinking about Jesus.

Whoa, oh my gosh. So what do you, like, there's, this has been a lot. This is a lot of things.

And maybe some Christians are like, I feel like I've been doing this completely wrong because I've never focused as much time on this topic in itself.

Where do we go from here? Like, what do you advise on the Christians? Like where they should refocus their efforts? Is it as simple as just becoming familiar with the story or is there something more of a call to action here?

Well, look, it's a great question. It's an important question. I teach people because Jesus said make disciples and disciples, another way of talking about a disciple is to say learner.

A disciple is a learner. So let's not beat ourselves up. I mean, on my

Facebook page, I identify myself as a student of theology, okay?

So I've just spent more time studying and have some things to share with others, but I'm a learner.

I have more to learn and Jesus is patient with us. He's given us time.

I think what I would encourage you is, as we've said, let's take some time to walk through the scriptures, to follow the story a little more slowly and carefully than perhaps we have in the past, but don't beat yourself up.

We all have more to learn and I expect to be learning until the very end.

Wow, oh my gosh, like such a great note of inspiration to end on. I cannot thank you enough for illuminating, no pun intended, this topic and helping us understand it.

I'm sure a lot of people trust you, they like you, they know you a little bit more and they want to connect maybe with some of your works or take a class from you or read some of your work.

So what can they do to get more of you? Well, I mean, there are some books out there.

Some are academic, some are for the church. To be honest, I've tried to write one book for the church for every academic book

I write because I see a dual vocation in my ministry. If you're willing to take some time and you've had some interest in what we've been talking about today,

I would recommend reading my most recent book, which is called Mere Christian Hermeneutics.

It's about how to read the Bible to understand what Jesus, who

Jesus is, what God is doing in Christ. And it deals with this really important question of what is it to read the

Bible literally? If I read it literally, can I read it theologically? And I answer that we can.

And the transfiguration is central in my book, by the way. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, this transfiguration is a central part because I do believe that if we're reading the

Bible rightly we are going to behold Christ. And that means if we're reading the

Bible rightly, prayerfully, with the spirit of Christ, we will be transfigured as we read.

Wow. Literally reading the Bible and rightly reading the Bible. Oh my gosh. I might have to get a copy of this.

This is so amazing. So I think - Don't do anything too radical. I'll have it linked in the show notes.

So anybody that's listening, just click below and you can get a copy of yours. Thank you so much for your time today, Dr. Van Hooser.

This was amazing. And I really appreciate you sharing so much about the word so we can understand and grow closer to Lord and one degrees of sanctification closer to him.