#64 What Most Christians Miss About the Transfiguration + Dr. Kevin Vanhoozer

The Transfiguration as a Preview of the Kingdom

Have you ever skimmed through the transfiguration when you're reading your Bible?

This isn't just a weird story. That is a preview of the kingdom of God coming with power.

It seems like the whole Bible summarized in just a single event.

If we didn't have the transfiguration and the story of Jesus, we'd be missing something really important. We'd be missing the climax of the story of Jesus' self-revelation.

What are we yet to see? What is it preparing us for?

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My name is Cassian Blino, and I'm your host. I wanna start off with a question is, have you ever skimmed through the Transfiguration when you're reading your Bible? Anything about that kind of confuse you, pop up?

Maybe it's that strange moment, for those that haven't skimmed it, where Jesus shines like the sun, two dead prophets show up, and then God speaks again, which if you didn't know, that's the second time of the one of two options that he does speak with in the Bible.

Why is this in the Bible? What does it mean? What is the greater purpose other than dead people showing up and Jesus's face shining? I mean, all of those are amazing, but is there something deeper here that we're just not picking up when we read it?

I mean, the Bible's amazing, but nothing's not included because there's not a certain purpose. So I just wanna spend some time today with an amazing guest, Dr. Kevin Van Hooser, who is one of the most respected voices in biblical theology today.

You have degrees in Westminster, Cambridge. You spent decades teaching at Wheaton Trinity and the University of Edinburgh, and you're known for bridging scripture, doctrine, and culture in ways that are intellectually rich and grounded.

You don't ask just what the Bible's saying, but how we're meant to live it. Welcome to the show, Dr. Van Hooser. I'm so excited to have you here to talk about the transfiguration.

Thank you, and I'm glad to be here. I love the name of your show, Biblically Speaking. In a sense, that's a way of talking about theology, biblically speaking about God and all things in relation to God.

Thank you. This whole thing is a gift from God, so any creative applause goes to him. It does not come from me. Okay, how did we get here? How did you come to learn so much about the transfiguration? What about this specific topic drew you in?

Well, it came in the process of working on a book on biblical interpretation. And it struck me that this event, unusual as it is, as you've already noted, is relevant in a way that maybe will become clearer as we continue our conversation about it.

I love when little excerpts that we think are like, oh, that was a one-off. It was so interesting and cool. It actually unlocks a huge portion of the Bible. So I'm excited to see how that exactly does it today.

What Happened on the Mountain

It's not included in the book of John, but what happened on that mountain? Because there's a bit of a difference between the three of them, and it's a depiction of it. But what is the transfiguration in simple terms?

Yeah, so the transfiguration is an English word that translates a Greek word metamorpho. And we get our English word metamorphosis from it. So we're dealing here not with the miracle of Jesus, but some kind of metamorphosis of Jesus.

And why is it in the gospel? Well, it happens on a mountain, and that's significant because anybody who's read through the Bible knows that a lot of significant things happen on mountaintops. Mountaintops are the traditional place where God makes himself known.

And I think it's in our gospels because, well, it happened to some of the evangelists, the people who wrote the gospels. And I think they realized it was a crucial event worth recording. So that's why it's there.

We haven't yet said what it means, but I think that's why it's there. It happened and people saw it and they wanted to pass on the news. And they did so only after Jesus' death, though. That's also interesting.

They didn't talk about this until after Jesus died?

Yeah, they kept it quiet. They say that in the gospel accounts, yeah. In fact, in one gospel, Jesus tells them not to talk about it until he's risen from the dead.

Is that, why do you think that is? Do you think that was just something along the lines of, if you start telling people, then they'll know I'm the Messiah and then my crucifixion will come too early?

It's not that the crucifixion will come too early. I think that people will misunderstand what his particular mission as Messiah was. And again, we're gonna get into that when we talk about where this comes in on the gospel story.

Okay, so including it in the gospels at all is really just kind of setting the groundwork for the crucifixion. Then?

Well, it does that, it does that, but it does a lot more. I mean, it's a crucial part of Jesus' story. It's been neglected. People don't always understand why it's there. But I hope that during the course of this conversation, everybody's going to see just how central an event this is.

Absolutely, I want to. Just, for the readers that don't understand what the transfiguration is, but they're hooked in, I'm gonna read one of the excerpts. Do you have a preference on which one you wanna read?

Use Matthew, it's the first one.

Okay, so this is Matthew 17. After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, the brother of James, and led them up to a high mountain by themselves. This is the NIV version. There he was transfigured before them, his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, Lord, is it good for us to be here? If you wish, I will put up three shelters, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

I love it, I love how proactive he is. While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, this is my son, whom I love, with all I am well-pleased, listen to him.

When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. Get up, he said, and don't be afraid. When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, don't tell anyone what you've seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.

I can't even imagine what it'd be like to be hiking down that mountain after that. I'd be like, it would just be silence. It would just be awe and silence and just wonder and so many questions. But you know, cameo from Elijah and Moses, what do you think of that?

Is that possible within this realm for dead people to suddenly show up? I mean, these are just my mere mortal, you know, earthly questions of, I didn't know that was possible.

Well, with God, all things are possible. So when we're talking to the theologian, I just have to say that, right? I mean, it's not possible in our natural world, right? This does not happen naturally, but there's a lot that Jesus does that doesn't happen naturally.

I mean, we're reading about a figure who is the one through whom all natural things were created. He's the author. He can do things that we can't do. And so I accept this on trust. I believe the eyewitness testimony of the apostles because I don't have a good reason not to believe it.

So I'm gonna let what God does determine the range of what he can do.

That's really well said. Of course, when you say it, it makes sense. It's like, what a stupid question to ask. But once you say it, you're like, yeah.

Not at all.

Peter, James, and John as Eyewitnesses

Okay, so let's get into the context of it. Where, like the transfiguration happens before the crucifixion. This is Jesus hanging out with his apostles. Where's this sit for you in the flow of the gospels and the Jesus story?

Well, yeah, that's a great question. It's important and it's not just for me. It's for every one of the evangelists. They all put it in the same spot and that's really important. Briefly, Jesus has been trying to teach his disciples who he is and there's that famous episode where he asks them, who do you say that I am?

And they kind of tell him what other people are saying. But then finally, Peter, who I know you like. Peter says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus congratulates Peter. That's the right answer.

But then right after that, Jesus predicts his death. And resurrection. And then he says, this is just before the passage you read, right? So this is in Matthew 16. He said, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see this kingdom of God after it has come with power.

And that's the moment where we shift and he asks Peter, James and John to go up with him on this high mountain. So every one of the gospels has this story of who do you say that I am? Peter's confession.

And then that troubling saying of Jesus. But then also this promise that some of you who are with him are going to see the kingdom of God. And so he does take them up onto this hill. And as we've read the passage, they see, well, what is it?

It's a light show. There are a lot of special effects. But they see light coming from the face of Jesus. His clothes are shining. And I think the suggestion is that is a preview of the kingdom of God coming with power.

It could be just the resurrection that's envisioned. But I think there are signs in the text like the cloud and so on that indicate that really what they get a preview of is the end of history. They get a preview of Jesus' second coming in glory.

And so this is a very strategic placing in the story because they've announced that he is the Christ. Then he says, but I have to die. And then he says, but you'll see the kingdom. And then we have the transfiguration event.

Is there significance that we're missing with who he chose to go up on the mountain with?

I don't know. I mean, Peter, James, and John are a trio that he often invites to come with him. We don't know why he chose just those three. I think it is important that it was not just one disciple because we know from earlier in scripture that you need at least two witnesses to have a firm testimony.

And so to have three, that means the witness, this account that we're getting of the transfiguration is very reliable. We have at least three witnesses.

Where did that rule come into play with at least two witnesses?

Oh, it's in the Old Testament law because if someone accuses someone of doing something, you need to have at least two witnesses because otherwise you get into Salem witch trial scenario where if you don't like someone, you can say he did this or that, right?

And this is, I mean, this is good law practice. You probably need more than one witness if you're going to convict someone. So it's in the Old Testament law. And again, it isn't explicit in the text, but you asked me why these three, and I'm saying it could be because the gospels are assuring us there's plenty of eyewitness testimony.

And by the way, just on that point, if I can go back to what happened, I think it is important. It's important to remember that we have eyewitness testimony about this event. You know, John, in his first epistle, he talks about what we have heard, seen with our eyes.

First John 1 .1. And then Peter, this is even better. I love this. Peter, in his second epistle, says this. He says, we didn't follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Then you wonder, when did they see his majesty? And then Peter goes on to say, for when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was born to him by the majestic glory, this is my beloved son, we ourselves heard this very voice born from heaven for we were with him on the holy mountain.

Second Peter 16 to 18. So Peter, I mean, it doesn't get clearer than that, right? This is eyewitness testimony. He said, we've seen it, we heard it. And so that's just important to remember. This isn't just a weird story.

We have eyewitness accounts. So that's important.

Thank you so much for mapping that out. This is one of the struggles as like, for me, a Sunday school Christian, where it's one of those like, okay, a lot of stuff is happening in the Bible, but it's hard to keep track of it when you see it in the gospels and then you see it referenced in a future book.

It's just, it's so dense. So thank you for creating that very clear connection between the event itself.

Yeah, what's really impressive is that in earlier days, before people had computers and books and so on, the church fathers, the very earliest Christians, they had so much scripture memorized that they could make the connections in their heads.

Right, right. So when they, so he didn't tell anybody about this though. So in the future, after the crucifixion, that's when they started talking about this transfiguration that later when they were calling their eyewitness accounts, people could remember, I remember you talking about that after the resurrection.

So this makes sense.

Yeah, exactly.

I think it's just so interesting to interpret the word of God, within modern context of like, how that would have played out today. It makes way more sense. You have the event, you cross-reference it in the future, but when you read the Bible, for some reason it takes on this ancient veil of like, well, it was just different back then.

And you're just, you're modernizing it for me. So thank you.

Good.

The Transfiguration as a Preview of Our Transformation

Okay, so I think you've done a great job really mapping out that this is preparing them for kind of emblematic, emulating heaven, what's about to happen with the kingdom of heaven coming and Jesus showing his face and seeing Elijah and Moses.

You would say that this is preparing the disciples to, and us, to kind of understand what is to come, but they see what comes, they see the resurrection. What are we yet to see? Like, what is it preparing us for?

Well, so we've been talking about Jesus' transfiguration, right? And that is a preview of coming attractions as it were, because the Lord is going to come to judge the heavens and the earth. But it's also a preview of our destiny.

And that's something we perhaps need to tease out a little bit. And what I mean is this, remember I used that word metamorphosis, that's the word that is translated transfiguration. So something happens to Jesus.

It's not something he does, something happens to him. But that little word metamorphosis in Greek, it occurs only four times in the whole New Testament, twice is in connection with Jesus' transfiguration, but there's another two times the same term is used.

And guess what? It's in connection with our transformation. Romans 12, two, Paul is talking about being transformed by the renewing of our minds. That word transformed is the same one for transfigured.

So you could say, or read in Romans 12, we're being transfigured by the renewing of our minds. And then also the last time we see this word metamorphosis is in 2 Corinthians 3 .18. And this is even clearer.

It's a clear allusion to the Jesus transfiguration. He says, all those who've turned to Christ in faith, all those who have the spirit of Christ, Paul says, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.

And the idea then is that the disciples, when we behold the shining face of Christ, when we behold it, we begin to reflect some of that glory. And so Jesus' transfiguration is the ground of the hope that we too will be transformed.

As we're, we may have a little glory now, but we're gonna have a lot more in the new creation. You know, Paul says we died with Christ. We've been raised with Christ. Let's just go ahead and say it. We will be transfigured with Christ.

So I don't think the transfiguration is a saving event. That is, it's not the shedding of blood that forgives sins, but it is an event that gives us a preview of our salvation. It doesn't make salvation possible.

It makes salvation palpable. The transfiguration gives us a taste of the glory yet to come. And again, this is not a weird sideline. If you look at Paul in Romans eight, when he talks about all the wonderful things we have in Christ, you know, God calls, those he calls, he justifies, those he justifies, he, see there's something after justification.

Those he justifies, he glorifies. And Paul's, this golden chain of what salvation consists in, it ends with glorification. And so in that sense, transfiguration isn't some weird footnote to the story of Jesus.

It's the proper end of the whole story of the Bible. Because it reminds us that our future is going to be looking on the face of God, looking on the face of Christ, and reflecting the glory of what we see in our own faces.

So this is pretty special.

It's reflecting the glory that we'll see in our own faces after glorification.

Well, so yeah, we've skipped some bits here, but you know, so Jesus' face was shining, right?

Right.

But the whole meeting on, you know, that cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, all of that is a repetition of something that's happened before. In the Old Testament, Moses gets the law, the 10 commandments on a mountain.

Israel sins, they worship the golden calf. Moses destroys the law. He goes up and gets them a second time and wants to make sure that God will forgive Israel and be with them. And at one point, Moses says, show me your glory.

And what happens then is that he converses with God for a while. And when he comes down from the mountain, Moses' face is shining. Moses' face.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I forgot about that.

Yeah, and that's because he was in the presence of God. He got a kind of divine sunburn because when you're in the presence of someone, you know, you kind of bask in their presence. So Moses' face was shining and so much so that Israel was afraid to see it.

He had to put a veil. But here's the difference. Whereas Moses' face reflected or showed the effect of being in God's presence, in the transfiguration, the light is coming from Jesus' face. You see, he's not reflecting the light.

He's the source of the light. And for a theologian like me, this is really important because what it's telling me is that Jesus is no mere man like Moses. He's no mere prophet like Moses. He's greater than Moses because he's the long awaited Messiah.

He's an entirely different kind of son of God than Israel was. So this is huge. You know, does that make sense?

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You know, it didn't for a second, but then, because I couldn't understand when you were explaining what was in store for us, but seeing what was in store for Moses helps me understand the reflection of what glorification will look like reflected in my face.

So now that does make sense. And literally never thought any of these thoughts. So this is so amazing to connect.

Well, there's a, in the church tradition, and if you look at art from modern Europe, you know, in centuries, the medieval and afterwards, one of the things artists try to depict is what we call the beatific vision.

Because for centuries, the vision of the blessed God was thought to be, you know, the purpose of life, the end of salvation. And so we might call it, I mean, I don't know how your listeners think about this, but in some sense, the transfiguration is a kind of beatific vision.

It's a vision of the glory of God that glorifies the one looking.

It's, whoa, we gotta say that again. Slower. It's a vision of the glory of God that glorifies the viewer.

Yeah, because remember 2 Corinthians 3, 18, Paul was saying that we're being transformed into this glory one degree at a time because we're in the presence of the Lord. You can't be in the presence of the Lord and be unchanged.

Remember Moses' shining face. And so when we're in the presence of the Lord, that's a sanctifying presence. And again, what is it to be saved? It's not just everlasting life, it's more than that. It includes glorification.

We're going to be what we were always created to be, not something other than human, but fully human like Jesus.

That's such a wild statement. Like this is what makes our faith so wild is that simply witnessing the glory of God sanctifies us. Not works, not doing certain things, not rituals, not a gift from him personally, but just bearing witness to his glory in itself changes us.

Being in his presence, right? If we stay with Jesus long enough, we're going to become more and more like him. And I think that's part of what's being said here. That's what Paul's on about in 2 Corinthians 3.

We're being changed. And because we have the spirit of Christ, we have him in us. He's a constant presence. We're gradually being changed one degree at a time, from one degree of glory to greater glory.

And that's the hope, that we're not always going to be left with our own resources in our shame.

What do you mean by that last part? What do you mean left our own resources?

Oh, just, you know, if I had to become a saint simply out of my own power, on my own steam, I don't think I'd get very far, right?

That's a really good point that he's actively playing a part in our sanctification as we spend time with him. It's not really up to us to get to that level.

Paul says, I've been crucified with Christ and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith or I live by the one who lives through me. It's Christ who's in me and I'm living Christ's life out.

Got it.

The Voice from Heaven and the Meaning of “Listen to Him”

Okay, so you mentioned something earlier with regards to God speaking. And I think one of the keynotes that when we were discussing this topic is that there's only two times that God speaks directly. And one is at the baptism of Jesus and the other is at this moment.

What is going on there? Why is it only twice? Like, I think any common Christian like is probably shaking their head like, no, surely not. Surely you're wrong. I'm sure God talks again, but you're doubling down that this is only two times.

That's pretty big deal.

Yeah, I need to make a slight correction to what I might've told you. There's actually three times, but still.

Okay, okay.

I'll tell you about the third one. But what's important to note is that in the Old Testament, God talks a lot through the prophets, but often directly to people like Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, and often he talks on mountaintops.

I mean, just when Moses is there on Mount Sinai, he's there a long time, 40 days, taking down everything God wants to say, his will for Israel, right? What we call the law. It's not just the 10 commandments.

But the point is in the New Testament, God speaks at Jesus' baptism. He speaks here at Jesus' transfiguration. And then the one I didn't mention to you was in John 12, Jesus is talking about how he'll glorify God's name by dying.

And then John 12, 28, a voice from heaven says, I have glorified it, my name, and I will glorify it again. So those are the only three times. It's short, right? It's very brief. It's always in connection, by the way, with who Jesus is or glory.

And so that's important. Think about that. The only time God speaks, he's really telling people that Jesus is his glory. Just, I mean, for a parent, if you're really proud of a child, you might say, yeah, my son, he's my glory, because he's made my name, he makes my name great.

He makes me proud. Jesus is God's glory made flesh, because glory is simply a way of showing everything that you are, all your perfections. The glory of God is simply his greatness shown. That's glory.

And the Bible uses symbolism of light to express this. But the point is, the voice from heaven identifies Jesus as my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased. He ends up being the glory of God made visible.

So that's amazing. And then the voice also says, this is my son, right? And then it says, in whom I am, or with whom I am well-pleased. So listen to that. God identifies who Jesus is, and then he kind of endorses what Jesus does.

He's the Messiah, and he's on a blessed mission. So God only speaks directly from heaven on these three occasions, but it's really important because he's telling us who Jesus is and what Jesus is all about.

That's pretty important. So that's also what interests me about the transfiguration. It must be important for God to have spoken at that event. And then the last thing I'll say about the voice from heaven is that at the transfiguration, he says one more thing that he didn't say at Jesus' baptism.

And he adds this idea. He says, listen to him. You read it in the Matthew reading. So the voice says, listen to him. That's important because as we've mentioned, Jesus is with Moses and Elijah. And as you also mentioned, Peter wants to make some kind of a shelter or a tent or some kind of celebratory thing for all three of them.

And that was his mistake. He thought that somehow they're equal. But because Moses represents the law, Elijah represents the prophets, and then Jesus, who does he represent? Well, he represents the gospel, which is, yeah, the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

And that's why the voice from heaven says, listen to him, no longer Moses, no longer Elijah, just Jesus.

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Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

I, as the reader, of course you justify that that was the right move. Okay, I'm seeing something crazy. Let's create an alter for all three of them. I'm just trying to do my respects. This is clearly a moment bigger than myself.

And then you skim over, listen to him.

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, we shouldn't, we shouldn't. I mean, I hope that what your listeners are getting out of our discussion is that there's a lot in the Bible, and it pays careful reading. You know, you read a good book once and you enjoy it, but a really great book, it actually calls for more than one reading because a really good book has more than you can kind of understand in a first reading.

Sometimes it's only when you get to the end that you go, oh my, I didn't see all that. And then you immediately want to go back and see all the, what do we call it? The, not Christmas ornaments. What do you, Easter eggs.

All the Easter eggs. All the Easter eggs that the author left in. And there are lots of, I guess this isn't, this isn't blasphemous. There are lots of Easter eggs in the Bible.

But how easily do we miss them? But these types of conversations, that's such a, that's so, yeah, that's what this podcast is, is you guys pointing out those Easter eggs to me because I miss them each time.

Well, look, I took a class in high school on speed reading and I was taught that, you know, if you wanted to read well, you had to read fast for comprehension. Okay, my advice would be do not speed read the Bible.

In fact, maybe that'll be a new bumper sticker I'll come up with. Do not speed read the Bible because, you know, we live in a culture that values efficiency and speed and so on, but sometimes it's really important to slow down, pay attention, stay awake, and make these connections that are so rich.

The Light of God in Genesis, the Gospels, and Hebrews