Apologia TV Interview with Tim Bayly

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Hello.

And Zach Attack.

What's up y 'all?

Zachary Conover, Director of Communications for End Abortion Now. I want to encourage you all to go to EndAbortionNow .com when you do and sign up there. You get free training and free resources and you join the over 250 local churches across the country who are out saving lives, literally saving lives this very day and preaching the gospel and serving and providing for many mothers and fathers outside those abortion mills.

So that's what's going on. Very important show we are going to be talking about today, at least one of the aspects of the show is we're going to be talking about a book, The Grace of Shame by Tim Bailey and I'm sure that'll take us a number of different places, but Zach, I'll go ahead and have you introduce.

Well, if you guys don't have this book, first of all, please, you guys need to get it. It's phenomenal. I would definitely recommend picking it up, but a little bit about our guest today, Pastor Tim Bailey has pastored Clear Note Church in Bloomington since 1996.

His MDiv is from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He was ordained by the Presbyterian Church and served there from 1983 to 91. With his first congregation, he then transferred into the Presbyterian Church in America where he served from 91 to 2010.

He's now a member of Clear Note Fellowship. While pastoring, Pastor Bailey has also worked as Executive Vice President of Presbyterians Pro-Life in the 80s and early 90s. Then Executive Director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood from the late 90s until 2001.

He's the author of Daddy Tried and The Grace of Shame. He writes Lee, uh, he is married to Mary Lee since 1976 and the Bailey's have five children and 25 grandchildren. That's amazing.

That is awesome.

Wow.

That's global conquest in action.

That's right.

Taking dominion right there, being fruitful and multiplying a lot. All right. So, uh, Mr. Bailey, thank you for joining us, brother.

Good to be here.

Thanks.

Absolutely. So Presbyterians are our favorite, just so you know. Uh, we're, we're Reformed Baptists here, but we love our Presbyterian brothers and sisters. Um, so a lot of things have been happening recently, brother, in terms of, uh, we have the Revoice Conference that, uh, just happened, and, uh, so there's a lot of controversy and a lot of discussion surrounding, uh, this particular issue, of course, of homosexuality, homosexual identity, and those sorts of things, same-sex attraction.

But in particular, it's important because now we are dealing with this not as something external happening outside of the church we need to speak to, but we have sort of a reformation of our thinking around the area of same-sex attraction.

Um, and it's an important issue because, of course, we're talking about something that's actually occurring within the faith, and, uh, people are being asked to think about this in all new ways. So in light of the book, The Grace of Shame, in light of the Revoice Conference, I'd love to hear from you, uh, in terms of what's on your mind right now, because you've written about this, and you obviously see what's going on.

So how are you thinking about this today?

Well, I lived with my wife in Madison, Wisconsin, went to UW-Madison, lived in San Diego, lived in Boulder, worked at First Press in Boulder, Colorado, and now we're in Bloomington. So we've been around university communities, and in university communities, and especially in Bloomington, we have a large number of people who are involved in various forms of sexual sin, and, of course, the most common one, other than fornication, is actually homosexuality, both lesbians and gays.

And so, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago, I began to notice that the conservative church, particularly the Reform Church, particularly the men involved with Gospel Coalition, were caving on the issue.

It was like Obergefell hit, and everybody ran for cover, but they were very, very sophisticated in how they were doing it. And because we have always had people who have repented of homosexuality in our church, I would say that we have maybe a little bit more of an awareness of the issues than many people do, and it's not hypothetical to us, it's the souls that we care for and love.

And so, it became clear that the church was caving. And I would say, and so that's where that book came from, The Grace of Shame, my wife just kept saying, you have to write on this, it just has to be done, because it was so sneaky, what was going on.

And so, we wrote the book, it was difficult to write, because it was the first time that I ended up having to take a position against men like Al Mohler, but those were the sources, the PCA, Covenant Seminary, these were the sources of, if you don't mind me saying, the.

Bad karma.

And so, there was a period of time where I really didn't want to write the book, I didn't want to work on it, it was a thankless task. But we gave ourselves to it, and then revoiced it. And I honestly, I can't believe the chutzpah of the people behind Revoice, but even worse than that is the denial of so many well-known Christian leaders, especially the PCA, about what's going on and how serious it is.

Yes, yes.

Now, you mentioned, brother, you said sneaky. Now, that immediately, it alerts me to something very important that I think I know what you're getting at, and I agree with you. Can you help us with that?

When you say sneaky, it's important for us to understand just what is so devastating and important to understand about what's being done here. So, we've got about a minute and a half in this segment, so go ahead and lead us into.

That.

What do you mean by sneaky?

Well, the best example is Gospel Coalition running a headline on their website that says, Godliness is not heterosexuality. And it's just a lie. It's a sneaky lie, it's an equivocation, because they're using heterosexuality in the title to refer to a position that's opposite homosexuality, that's how everybody thinks of the word heterosexuality.

Today.

But then in the article, they say that, you know, heterosexuals rape. Well, that's a different meaning of the word heterosexuality. In the headline, it's as opposed to homosexuality. And the fact is that God created heterosexuality, and in that sense, it is holy.

And this is what is happening again and again. Words are being used in two different ways, such that people who aren't on the ball and aware of it are led astray by this, as I said, this sneaky use of words.

Yes.

All right, so brothers and sisters, I encourage you guys to stay tuned, stay with us in this episode. We're going to talk about some vitally important issues. I really appreciate what Tim has to say on this issue.

I have talked to a lot of men about Tim and what he said and what he's done, and the importance value to us as a church in terms of listening to him and understanding these issues from a biblical perspective, and in particular, what he's actually speaking about.

So if you would stay with us, apologiestudios .com is where you get more content. Be right back here with Tim Bailey.