Do All Babies Go to Heaven?

The Question of Babies and People With Disabilities Before God

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification Of the Saints before we dig into our topic. We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

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I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Deere and Chris Kiesler and today we'll be reading another question.

That's been sent in to our website. The question reads. What happens to babies and or people with disabilities when they die. Babies who are aborted.

Aborted miscarried children who die young etc. What happens to them Michael. Well, this question is one that obviously is emotionally charged. The concern the way that the question is usually phrased has to do with not with just with babies who are in the womb or Babies who have been born very young.

Children, you know one two, three four years old so on and so forth. Then also the question concerns those who do not have the mental capacity in years. They have aged but in terms of their mental capacity, they have not matured.

And so the concern is what happens to these? Humans those made in God's image who were made for his glory and yet We never see them develop to a point where they may Profess faith in Christ or have the mental capacity to understand that they have The very basics right that they have a creator that he sent his son for them that they may be saved.

They don't have the the capacity to know intellectually or spiritually as far as we can tell Christ and everything that we read in the scriptures when it comes to comes to salvation involves a Knowing and this is eternal life that we would know God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

It all involves a knowing of some level that we would know who God is who Christ is. That we would hear news good news and rejoice in it and to believe in it at the very heart of All of the variety of debates between the various movements and doctrines in Christianity is about that What do people have to know?

How do people have to respond in order to be saved? And this is you know, the difference between Various positions like even if you're a staunch Calvinist you would say it is completely By the grace of God that we would know who he is that we would have eyes to see and ears to hear that we would be able to Respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ in a positive way that we would even want to To have Christ as Savior is a gift from God.

It's the work of the Holy Spirit to give a new birth to provide a new birth in which we come Into a spiritual life. And so when we're thinking about how does this pertain to Infants, how does this pertain to those who do not have the capacity to respond who are essentially infants in their mind?

What happens when they die and they have never matured to the point where they can know Critical information about God about themselves about sin about salvation. So and so forth this question can get Phrased a variety of ways the way I just did it is gonna be similar to other people there may be some nuances that somebody has but it's basically the same when people look into the Scriptures to try to find some help to try to find some information that can give some degree of Clarity about this the honest assessment that we have to give is that there's not a lot there time and again We look at salvation.

It is not something that somebody else does for The week in terms of a human response, so I can't pray to God in a particular way with a particular level of faith that This unborn infant Okay, we'll go to heaven.

I can pray that I couldn't say that's my desire. But it's not something where if I confess faith in Jesus somebody else gets saved, right? We were never ever told that in all of the scriptures We are constantly told that salvation is in this particular perspective that those who?

Who have been given the grace of repentance the grace of faith to respond turn away from their sins and trust in Christ. So that's why we begin to think about infants and so on. It's hard to find anything to go on.

There are various theological systems Which have a ready answer. Okay, so depending on your particular Flavor of Calvinism you might respond to it differently. You might say well my confession says that all infants and those who are unable to respond God Mercifully saves them and brings them safely into his presence and he just simply Forgives them for any sin they may have especially if you're Calvinist you believe in original sin.

You believe in total depravity and so on and so forth. So nobody's off the hook before God so God has to do something and so many confessions just simply state Christ died for their sins atone for their sins.

They're brought before God into his Holy Presence and bypasses any kind of Salvation by faith alone a grace alone in Christ alone. Yes, but in the case of these folks faith is not operative yet. They're still saved.

Other flavors of Calvinism would say faith is operative because God can do anything He wants and so he grants them the faith to believe which is beyond their capacity. Indeed, it's beyond anybody's merit.

So God just grants them the faith to believe even as they are infants. So infants are saved even from their mother's womb and they'll point at Jeremiah I put a John the Baptist and so on and say God can do that.

Can he and of course we all say amen. So we do see John the Baptist and Jeremiah as examples, but we don't have an answer about every single infant. We have you know particulars. It's true that some infants are saved but those two in particular grew up and did things.

You know and.

Even with a David's son who passed away.

Yeah, so then so looking at biblical passages is a little bit different than looking at theological systems, right? Right, so in theological systems some systems say yeah, I think it's Second Lennon Baptist Confession.

I would say probably Westminster as well. I believe I could be wrong because I'm not a covenantalist, but I do believe that they State that the infants they and those like them just are well saved all saved all elect.

God grants them whatever they need to be saved and he does so to his own glory and in this many people find comfort and rejoice. Some theological systems would say all infants and those like them who are elect Go to heaven and those who are not elect and passed over do not go to heaven.

And this too is the justice of God and the fact that anybody gets saved at all anywhere anytime is grace To the glory of God and we should be grateful for that. So in that sense, I'm talking about there is some who are positively chosen and elected unto salvation.

And there are those who are passed over and simply not elected for the scholars and listening. That's called in for lapsarian ism. And then there's another flavor, which is super lapsarian ism double double predestination saying God actively Elects these to go to heaven and he actively chooses these to go to hell before any other considerations.

So in this case, they would say yes. God actively chooses to send some Infants and those like them to hell and this is for his own glory. And the reason why people commit to these systems mind you usually has to do with some other commitment that they have.

Like I'm committed to a particular way of expressing who God is and I have to be committed to that. Therefore I have to say this down the line a logical Progression. I've got to be consistent. And so there can be some intra Calvinistic Debates about that.

But in any case people who are against Calvinism just outright will always point to this particular issue and say you're being either inconsistent about yourself your doctrine of salvation. Because you believe in total depravity it heard all these you say everyone goes to heaven if they die young enough.

But they didn't have faith to believe, you know, they needed to repent of their sins, correct. And you know, but you know, how can that happen? So they're saying you're being inconsistent here about total depravity if all infants go to heaven and then if you say well God sends babies to hell then they're saying then you were rejecting the clear view of God is merciful and good in the scriptures.

And so that's the argument against Calvinism when people you know, I'm not against theological systems. Theology has its role. It's very helpful, but we can come up short sometimes and trying to answer it from the confessions.

So that'd be looking like at systems. The idea of age of accountability. Is that a system?

Yes, that drive from age of accountability is a system. So and other ways of looking at the Situation is more not the emphasis on the will of God. The will of God who does he elect into salvation? Who does he not elected in salvation.

Calvinistic systems reform systems look at will of God? Non-reform systems tend to look at will of man as the main factor.

Okay.

And if babies and those like them don't have the will okay and the capacity the intellectual capacity to choose Christ then then God just brings them into heaven because Systems that prioritize the will of man in the role of salvation deny total depravity or things like it to say, you know.

You know, and we're not sinners by default. Okay, we end up sinning sure, but we don't run centers by default. So babies truly are innocent. And so yeah, the age of accountability would be something along the lines very formalized in the Roman Catholic Church.

Which is semi Pelagian or outright Pelagian and they would say you have to go until you get through your catechism Age 12 and finish your catechism. You're not really accountable. So if you're if you're baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church they have this whole other thing about the Treasury of Grace and you have grace infused into you through the holy water put on you and Basically, you're covered until you're 12.

So that's a really wackadoodle way of Approaching that but other people do believe in the age of accountability.

I heard it in Baptist circles a lot. But and I think the emphasis there was more if you're not within the reformer Calvinistic system God's sovereignty then the emphasis is on choice. You have to have free will and if a person is denied that or doesn't have.

The mental capacity. Yes, and they didn't have that choice.

Then God being good would just assume them into heaven. So and so sometimes they'll say well what age is that? You know and it's different depending on down when I was in seminary. We had a question in evangelism class how young is too young for you to witness to a child?

They were concerned about that because obviously you don't want to be an emotional manipulator. And so well, he said well I have a test where I'll do is I'll show him. I'll show him a dirty dime and a shiny penny.

And I'll say which one do you want? You know when he knows that the dirty dime is worth more than the than the shiny penny and picks the dime. Then I know that he has a capacity to be making higher level choices or understanding higher level things.

Then then just kind of base layer things and then I feel free to kind of share with him a few things to see. What does he know? So that was his. I'm thinking well, that's pretty random. Yeah, you know and he wasn't saying that was the age of accountability, but he kind of was you know when they start.

Evidencing a certain so we're gonna come back to this. I want to come back to this when should you start? Preaching the gospel to your to your children. I want to come back to that but to get away from the systems where you have.

Well ever all the babies are elect or you know. Some of them are but we don't know which ones on the Calvinistic side or on the the free will side. You know age of accountability stuff to get away from all of that and to go to the scriptures.

What are we left with like texts that come to mind?

Yeah.

David's Confidence After the Death of Bathsheba's Child

And so one of those ones that you mentioned was About David and so David was judged by God for having murdered Uriah and stolen Uriah's wife. Covering it all up so on so forth and one of the judgments God said was that you're the child.

That Bathsheba is pregnant with this child's going to die. And so David prayed and prayed and wept and mourned and and he did not want that to happen and it did it happen anyway, and he stopped his mourning after the child died and The people were like why why did you stop mourning you?

You know we figured you were gonna do yourself in and get even worse After the child died and he tried to explain it and first 22 of 2nd Samuel 12 and he said while the child was alive I fasted and wept for I said who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me that the child may live.

But now that he is dead. Why should I fast can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. And the question is is David finding comfort in death. The child's dead. And I will go to him in death and we'll just be in death together.

Or does David have now he sits on the throne that Melchizedek used to occupy. David listens into conversations between God the Father and God the Son reads psalm 110. Okay. What does David know? He knows something.

David's a prophet. He knows something. He says I can't bring him back to me, but I will go to him meaning There's going to be some kind of camaraderie fellowship relationship. Time together in the future for both of us.

And he says I take a comfort in that.

Yeah.

Now to me that is the the clearest and brightest passage out of anyone that we can find that gets closest to it. But most people look at verse 23 go back to verse 22. He said while the child was alive I fasted and wept for I said who can tell Whether the Lord will be gracious to me that the child may live.

What is he saying there about the Lord? He's completely in charge Over life and death. He's completely in charge. He he is so Sovereign so who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious. Who's gonna say only God can say so in the case I would say this in the case where there is an infant or someone like an infant who is Deathly ill things are not going well bad news from the ultrasound techs so on and so forth.

Pray who can tell what the Lord will be gracious. Mm-hmm. Who knows it's his business who can stay his hand. Who's gonna tell him how to think feel and do what to say and yet in all of that there is hope.

There's a really confident hope a hope that comforts David King David. David Refused remember later on David refused to be comforted about Absalom. What kind of man was Absalom? Yeah, there was no comfort for Absalom was there now but he was comfort for this son.

What should they tell you now to me? That's the brightest passage in all of Holy Scripture. And I think it's well worth meditating on but I'm not saying that that falls within any system. You know. That's not going to assist be systematized with that's not going to support in and of itself by itself a position in Calvinism.

Or a position that is anti Calvinist. There's a level of mystery. There's gonna be a level of mystery.

So given the dynamics between different systems, I think we would all agree here. We should be able to say with these other systems. This is actually a mystery. And Shake hands though those pre commitments for them.

Don't allow them to always do that. Maybe yeah, so somebody.

We were you know coming to the text with some presuppositions here. One side is saying see when babies die they go to heaven. They're not inherently wicked and God would be unjust to send them to hell.

Therefore. He welcomes them into his presence. Somebody from the other side says I saying see God is totally sovereign and he and his mercy is electing these Infants to go straight to heaven. Isn't he merciful?

I agree Dylan. I think we should just shake hands and say this ain't on the debate table. You know, you don't know we don't know but the clearest thing we have is that infants and those like them when they die.

We should have a strong hope because David's taking comfort like you said in God's sovereignty over the situation, but also in God's character. His gracious character his mercy that he may have on that child and that he may have on David himself as he said.

Now there is a great passion desire for us to do more. Especially for those who are grieving to offer more certainty to give even to just give an absolute certain airtight. Declaration now for the grieving parents about their baby.

I've been at funerals where there's a tiny white coffin at the front of the of the auditorium. That's very very difficult to be at and I've also been at one of those funerals where someone got up there who was in a cage.

Stage.

The pedo-baptist covenantal ism and began telling a bunch of Baptists why this family ought to have confidence that their Child is in heaven because it's a covenant child. And start preaching out of first Corinthians 7 about sanctified children and go and look you're importing into these texts a system.

That these texts cannot in and of themselves sustain. At this point your doctrine is strange to the text. I'm not saying it's necessarily an outright opposition to the text. But it's strange and that's not the kind of thing that you should be trying to offer the character of God.

This is a passage that should bring hope comfort. But trying to eliminate all bits of uncertainty is not the way to comfort in peace. Because we're never going to be able to eliminate all uncertainty in every single.

We're not gonna be able to answer every single question down to the atomic level about everything. That's not how we have our peace in normal days. So in bad days in really really rough days It's still not the way we get our peace and comfort.

So we need to be able to trust in the sovereignty of God the character of God the mercy of God. And in this story I'm so glad it's in the Bible. Yeah, I mean I really am.

I think of there's talking about the infants and then those that are disabled and again. You've got systems that talk about these things. This was not God's will or thus and such that the person be this way.

But taking comfort from God is good and God is merciful. And God is sovereign. I think of the text in Exodus where he's talking to Moses and he says. So the Lord said to him who has made man's. Who makes the mute the deaf the seeing or the blind.

Have I not the Lord. And. Then he tells him to go and speak. And basically God is sovereign over those things. Our state here on earth. He was sovereign over that child in the womb and its development.

He's sovereign over our development past the womb being born. He's with us in that. And then the same thing after we die. He's sovereign over those things and it's in his hands. And David takes comfort in his graciousness.

So there are some red herrings that come up when we talk about these things. Like well, if you're saying that all babies go to heaven if you're leaning that way then why are you anti-abortion? Why are you an abolitionist?

And this is a red herring and it's it's one that Exhibits a lack of of character by those who who use it forcefully. Because you know, it's the same way of arguing about some mass murderer. Who sent all these people into eternity?

Let's say he shot up a church and sent a whole bunch of people to heaven. Why would we be against that? Christianity's on death cult. Death is an enemy. Christ is gonna put that enemy underneath his feet when he returns in total victory, it's the last enemy to be defeated his death and We don't as Christians we never celebrate.

Something we're in trying to say the end justifies the means right? That's just evil, right?

And it also for that individual that murders someone else. They're guilty.

Yeah, we would rather than not commit that sin exactly. So that's kind of red herring. We don't need to talk about that the One come circling back to the practical question. Okay beyond Concern for and I'm glad people are concerned about this that's good beyond concern about what happens to babies when they die and those like them when they die is the concern of how young is too young to begin to basically preach the gospel to clear the gospel to these children and There's I think you know sing the gospel.

Pray the gospel talk about the gospel over your infants before they're ever born. Why stop, you know, why I have to have a certain starting point. But when when do you know if they're gonna be able to respond?

Is there a real age of accountability and so on. Should people say, you know, my two-year-old sings amazing grace with true conviction and I think I think she really Believes that she was a wretch saved just like any sinner and she sings it so sweetly.

I think it's time for her to be baptized and to partake the Lord's Supper probably a little too young. How can we tell each child's gonna be different? I reflect on Nancy Lee DeMoss talking about how clear-headed she was when she was four years old understood sin her need for repentance and trusting In Christ, I'm like praise God, you know, some kids don't become self-aware till they're 10.

They're called boys. Yes. Yes, like at some point they realize they exist. Oh, oh, hang on a second, you know. So again people want a system they want a hard hard and fast line. But generally I would say that when your child begins to do more than just kind of stimulus response.

You know learning patterns and so on when a kid is ashamed of being naked. That's about as biblical as I can get to some sort of age of accountability. When a kid is ashamed of being naked you can start talking to them about why God gave clothes to Adam and Eve.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean that's where that go all the way back to the beginning to me.

That's a biblical. They were ashamed that yeah, you know when kids are running around naked and they don't even know any better. You know, it's like yeah, that's that's something there. But when they suddenly become very self-conscious like oh, you know, this is weird.

I need to be I need to be covered. Then you're like, okay, you know, it's a yes.

In your experiences that usually come with shame for other sins, too. Is it kind of one-on-one or do you see shame for other sins crop up?

Beforehand, you know what I mean? You can you can see some other stuff start to crop up. It's hard to tell at the beginning because you don't know if it's something where there's just kind of a learned response.

Like, you know, I've been told 20 times not To grab this and then it's really quiet and dad says what you're doing over there, you know, and they're like, ooh Is that the same thing. I don't think it's the same thing right but when you know when they start trying to hide things that They're ashamed of right then.

It's just kind of like This is this is a good time to start talking about things on their level. What is this bag of Snickers doing under your bed?

Yeah, and then wife what what is this bag of Snickers doing in this house.

Yeah.

Well, I hope that helps. And and again this question I think was well phrased. I think it was a good submission to the podcast very glad for the person who asked it. As much better to deal with this question in a situation like This than to have it tossed out as an issue for some sort of heated debate.

And we find this to be a tough question.

Yes.

Just because the nature of it is a is a tough reality for us to deal with in our mortality in our Love. For our children this is a very very tough topic to deal with and think through without. Getting emotional about it and going just when you go directly to the scriptures and not try to feel our way through it.

Although feeling is greatly involved in this We really enjoy having people send us these questions that we can go through and hopefully be helpful to everyone out there.

Using AI as a Research and Sermon-Prep Tool

But we'll go ahead and go on do what we recommend for this week Michael. I recommend chat GPT for I think it's pretty effective. That's an AI right? Yes AI I would say that it is a tool that is Useful for certain things as a part of your tool belt in life.

I think that it could be a replacement for hard work. It shouldn't be. I think it could be an accelerant to hard work. That would be better. I think it's not meant to be a replacement for human relationships.

I think it should be used as a manner of serving other people that you are in relationship with. I think that it's not a The source of truth. I think that it can help you collate Truths and that you can check to see whether it has done a proper job as the tool that it's supposed to be.

So I would say just like the smartphone and just like the personal computer, which by the way anybody PC personal computer just like you know, how technology has been advancing. It's not something that Inherently is evil if you use AI you're not contributing to the mark of the beast.

You're not serving the Antichrist, you know, if you use AI or chat GPT for for Nefarious purposes then it's the same as if you take up a sledgehammer and use that for nefarious purposes, right? But I've been using it as a research assistant to get things done a little bit more swiftly than otherwise and I do Check all of the sources listed but this is generative Content where and I'm asking it unique questions that no website has in and of itself, right?

But 15 websites do Collated and so I'm asking this tool to do a job for me. That would take me 30 minutes to do and it's doing it for me in 30 seconds. Now that's helping me be a better pastor because I have more time.

It helps me be a better father husband because I'm spending less time looking everything up now I do check Resources and it helps to have an understanding of the field that you're in. Okay, I'm not using it to replace my seminary education.

It's not writing your sermons. It's not no it's not at all those in AI. Yeah, it's it's not and I'm you know, I'm snickering at sometimes the stuff that leaves out. I'm like, right, you know, you forgot, you know points five through eight and you skipped from four to nine, you know.

You forgot about all these things, but it is helpful. Sometimes I would really put it to the test and ask it a very complicated question Multifaceted because I know this is what I need to work through in order to be able to Help feed the flock shepherd the flock and so on.

So I ask it a very Thorough complicated question you have to be careful with your engineering prompts and you put that into the to get it, right? But then here it all comes out and it's like I know I would have found all of that in an hour.

You know, I wouldn't be able to do that. I could use my Bible search. I could have used my Bible dictionary. I could have used my commentary. I could have and it's not as thorough but it's all right there.

So that helps me move along at a faster pace. So it's not a replacement for writing a sermon. It's not a replacement for getting education. So on but it is a tool that can accelerate.

Particular portions of the labor I find what's fascinating about AI is that it's not a even though we have like some of these Highly centralized ones in general. We're starting to get really specific breakoffs like pulpit AI like I've showed you guys.

Yeah.

I'm to help a sermon prep and stuff like that and then there's stuff that there's one that is geared strictly toward Austrian economics thought and it accesses that database set and is able to Come up with answers to economic questions really really quickly.

And I'm just imagining later on like literature texts or even biblical texts of like different traditions and having all that stuff collated in one place and asking a question and being able to have that spit out rather than going through all all of those like Alexandrian texts on your own or Yes different different papyri on your own and then those AI are able to do it for you.

And I would say that it helps to be have a copiousness in your field to know whether or not it's doing a good job. Right, so it's not. I mean if if you're a beginner and a learner just know it's not gonna give you everything.

Yeah, and so it should be seen as kind of a starter to get going. But you're gonna have to dig deeper. It is limited in how much you can bring. I like the idea of a specialized AI. So it's like particularly helpful in this field specific subjects.

Yeah, because it needs to be refined that way. I don't think ultimately it's going to be the general all-knowing. You know AI that covers everything. I think focus it is the better.

It is that just seems like we don't know what to do with it yet. Yeah, right like the having the general format come out. We're like that's the beta test if you will of AI technology and then we're gonna get like very refined Corners of study that we can have a I help us out with so I'm I'm pretty Enthusiastic about that and I think it's pretty forward-thinking.

Capitalism, Climate Change, and Stewardship

Well, thanks for that recommendation. What do you think Chris?

I have a very short. I don't know if you'd call this a booklet. It's just a pamphlet. Maybe I don't know. It's called is capitalism bad for the environment. It was put out by the Cornwall Alliance. And this is particularly dealing with the Green Movement Climate change and some of the claims that they make about capitalism kind of a caveat.

He's talking about free market capitalism. Not what we have now not crony capitalism not Chinese capitalism. You know, it's it's talking about capitalism but he answers a lot of the charges that they'll make that that capitalism or the West is responsible for a lot of Damages to the climate because of a lot of different mindsets and then right off at the beginning is Capitalism bad for the environment.

Yes compared to what and then he talks about socialism's environmental record. Okay. That's the record that socialism has and then he brings up five charges against capitalism and he answers those and they're pretty helpful it's an interesting kind of discussion about maybe what capitalism used to be and then what is its Involvement or effects on on nature and climate change.

So as Christians, you know wanting to use our resources to Steward and be producers rather than just consumers. I found this very interesting and who's the author on that? The author is a Calvin Beissner.

Okay, you come by and you said the Cornwall Cornwall Alliance?

Okay. All right. Thanks for the recommendation this week I recommend for you to pick up a Or multiple hymnals and just read through some hymns and you can get some that have hymn and psalter combinations or even a psalter itself and kind of go through and read and study the hymn study the the meter and Really kind of pick apart the whole structure to how it was written and how it sounds even sometimes what I've liked to do Recently is I'll look at a hymn and I'll I'll find versions on YouTube that I either like or dislike and there's some hymns where I don't find a version that I like at all because sometimes the hymn is just not as well written as as the Other ones and you kind of get a taste of what you find most Effective for what a hymn is supposed to do or what a song is supposed to do set to music but I just recommend picking up a hymn or a psalter and reading through and trying to sing it and maybe even using it in your your family worship time or as we mentioned in a Previous episode to just spontaneously spark some song into your your household.

Mm-hmm. All right, we'll move on.

Thankfulness for Christ's Wisdom, Sanctifying Desires, and Christian Brotherhood

So, what do we think before Michael? I am thankful for the wisdom of Christ. I'm thankful for the way that he's given us clear instructions in his word about how to walk through difficult situations tough times in Families and churches and and in life in general that we don't have to be Don't to be lost without a clue but that we have a good Shepherd who says here's step one and And here's step to come along.

Here we go. And you just walk with your Shepherd through very difficult complicated things and taking his simple instructions in there You know their most hopeful light and then you just watch him do his work.

So I'm thankful for the wisdom of Christ in that regard thankful for the wisdom of Christ that it is not a reservoir Unique and solely in me or it's in him. He's the one who's full of wisdom and I'm just one member of his body and Therefore I'm thankful for the wisdom of Christ in others that I can talk with my other brothers in Christ and be encouraged and helped by them and Be exhorted by them and led by them Into good things.

So I'm just thankful for the wisdom of Christ. I mean Chris.

I'm thankful for Christ Sanctifying our desires. I'm thankful that we're able to have desires and ambitions and goals things to strive for. But in that that Christ is with us and that I can go to his word.