Erasing Hell — Francis Chan

How's everybody doing? Good Happy Father's Day. It's all of you guys out there that are dads. We're gonna be talking about hell today. Though they'll they'll put they'll hopefully connect the dots on that one.

But we are really excited that you're here today. Today's kind of a special day a few months ago I was having breakfast with Francis and he had just read a book and I'll let them explain the book that he was reading but He just started to kind of unload on me just some of his heart on this issue of hell and what this particular guy had Written about and after listening to him for just a little bit.

I said man you got to talk to Preston. I think Preston would be one of the best guys to talk to about this issue. I had no clue it was gonna turn into a book, but it was just I think a really good thing for For what God did through that and we're really excited for them now to take what God has taught them about this book and it's specifically About this issue of hell and I just wanted them to bring this to the body just to share with you the things they learned.

Because I do think it's a it's a super important issue. And so the guys that are up here right now. This is Mark Bubing. He's on the faculty at He's he's on the faculty at EBC. He's actually also was a part of writing the book.

It reads well because he was a part of this book. He's just a really good writer. And so he he jumped into it and also a really good thinker through through different things and obviously Preston Sprinkle you've seen him up here preaching a few times and then what's his name at the very end and so Francis Jan and so.

Anyways, what we're gonna do today is we're gonna just turn them loose to talk about what I think is a very important issue. To the church today. You're gonna see a little phone number up on the screen.

If you have any questions Go ahead and text them in or if you even want to write a question on a piece of paper and hand it to one Of the ushers, I'm sure they'll be able to get it back to us. But let me just pray for our time together.

I want to pray that God would truly be honored through our discussing through this very important issue father. Thank you for these guys. Would you please? Empower them through your spirit father not to just kick out a few canned answers about this sobering topic.

But father would your spirit just empower them and enliven them to truly be able to help all of us in this room gain a greater passion for you and your holiness and what you're doing on This planet because of it.

Thank you for them. Look forward to what you're gonna do today God and your precious name. We pray. Amen.

The Book Erasing Hell and Its Purpose

Great well, we're gonna we're gonna talk about the book. So the book is it's called erasing hell subtitle is what God said about eternity and the things we made up. So that's that's kind of what we're gonna discuss.

But but it goes beyond that so we're not we're not just gonna talk about a book. We're gonna talk about actually the the idea behind it the concept the need to write something on this issue. And and how this issue affects our lives.

So So first we'll just start why why this book why now? Preston you've written several things your work has been all scholarly and difficult to understand. He's written a very a very lengthy treatment on law and grace and how the two interact.

He edited a book called The the faith of Christ. It's on the pistis Christi debate. It's literally a book on a Greek phrase and whether that Greek phrase is an objective genitive or a subjective genitive.

So It just makes the rest of us feel uneducated even talking about his book. So and then and then now he's working on another scholarly work on Paul and Judaism so so for you to come from where you've been and what you've studied what you did your PhD in to jump into this area of Talking about hell and doing it in a in a much broader audience.

It's a bit of a shift and then Francis for you I mean you've written crazy love which is about following Jesus with a wholehearted devotion written forgotten God, which is about Pursuing the Holy Spirit reversing our neglect of the Spirit.

You've written some outstanding kids books to different approach than Preston usually but. And so for you to come from these things and now address this topic of hell. It's it's it still is a bit of a shift.

So it's I think it's fascinating that the two of you that God's Taking you at a point in in both your your book careers your book writing careers or whatever. Taking you to place in your walk with God that that now you've he's led you to the same point now to write this book.

So maybe just to address for us and even Francis to just give us a little update on.

Yeah, first I just want to say hi to everyone and it's always just yeah I Mean I really love coming back every few weeks and just reconnecting catching up with everyone because while we've Settled in Lisa and I settled in in San Francisco.

Bought a house where we're kind of in a neighborhood now kids are on school. Everything's going well, but it just doesn't feel like home, you know a lot of ways. Which is kind of what we wanted because we're not supposed to totally feel at home on this earth.

And let's just go wherever we think would be most effective. But it is nice to come back here where we do feel like There's a sense of home and their sense of family and it's like okay these people know us they've known us for years and Reconnecting it's just it's just been really really good.

We had a baby two weeks ago, yes, it's our fourth girl and Yeah. You know and then you know, we'll go to paint our house because it things falling apart and the girls choose like this purple color. Sound like in a dollhouse.

Just weird, but but ministries going great. It's just it's really exciting right now. I'm getting involved with some homeless ministries and recovering addicts. And then just some new church plans it's really coming alongside of other guys trying to just help them with their ministry and just kind of Go wherever God's calling me to go or do whatever I'm supposed to do and it's just it's been very very very good.

But as Todd shared earlier, man, I read this book a couple months ago that just I Don't know probably three months ago. I It's called love wins by Rob Bell and and as I'm reading it I'm getting very excited at certain parts because it's kind of saying that basically everyone's gonna go to heaven.

Eventually and and I'm reading going man I hope he's right because I I have friends that have died that don't believe in Jesus that totally rebelled against God and it's saying You know what? There's gonna be more and more chances after death and now I'm you know, there's part of me.

That's gone. Wow, that's that's cool. But then The more I read the more I go. Wait a second. That's not what the Bible teaches. That's not what I've ever Known and maybe I'm off and I'm and it just made me study again.

I mean, I couldn't sleep you know, you start thinking wait, I I hope I Maybe he's right and I've been teaching the wrong thing and and just going back to the way I study Scripture. I mean, I've always just I try to just think to myself.

Okay, if I'm on an island and I read this book over and over and over again. What would I leave there thinking and believing about Christ? But what I believe about the church or what I believe about the Holy Spirit and so with this topic of hell.

What would I believe about it? Would I believe that? You know that Basically, what would I believe and and I and I and I thought no if I walked away I'd go No all through this book it's about those who follow God.

There's this amazing blessing and then those who choose to rebel against him. There's this. It's it's just a very tough it's just it's bad consequences and and then the ending I mean you get to revelation and it's about this amazing life in Eternity with God and then on the flip side for those who reject him or take the mark of the beast is this?

Suffering, you know, it's his day and night forever and ever and and I'm like, how would I ever get that? Well, that doesn't really mean that I mean that I mean you guys know me. I'm I'm quick to change I could be doing something my whole life and then look at it biblically and go I think I got it off on this one.

I think it's wrong, you know, and I'll change my way of living. So when it comes to hell man, I'll ditch that in a moment if I if I could. You know biblically and I couldn't and that's when I You know when I talked to Todd about you as you talk to Preston because we approach things a little differently.

You know, I I write halfway Herbert and the big red tractor and he writes, you know something in Greek and and I and. And it's good. I think it was a good balance, you know, and plus we looked a lot alike and I Got a weird thing like I shaved my mustache off this morning and grew this out.

Just I wouldn't look so much like him. Because when we would Skype I'd be like wait, which one's me. It's just Seriously and I'm weird that way like if my wife and I are wearing like the same type of shirt I'll go up and change and I know because I don't want to go out with the same shirt and I didn't want us to Come up here with the same face so I changed mine, but You know, this is a topic that is so so important.

I don't think there's a deeper topic I I didn't want to write about this. I just believe God Specifically asked me to and wanted me to this to where I couldn't even sleep about it just and yet I didn't want to be wrong.

Because that's what I was concerned about with this book was like man. You throw out some nice ideas. But if you're wrong if I'm wrong about this, there's some serious consequences. Look, I don't want you believing in hell if it doesn't exist.

Because that kind of ruins your life, doesn't it? I mean, isn't there like this awful burden in you like. And and I don't want you to live that way if it's not there and at the same time I don't want to say it's not there if it is.

Because that's even worse because then that you come to the end of your life and you realize oh I don't get another chance and this really is forever. So you understand how we can't I can be wrong with a lot of things and make mistakes in life.

But this one I didn't want to mess up on and so yes I wanted to go through the scriptures the way I normally do simply and reading it over and over and it's gonna what does it say? Praying fasting saying God.

I gotta know the truth and and yet at the same time. I understand there's some limitations like my mind. Only goes to a certain point, you know, and then I go, you know. Let me get some some thoughts from guys that think at a maybe a deeper level more intellectual level and then even after we wrote it It was like let's send it off to other guys and get their thoughts and make sure we get this right.

Because this is just too big of an issue. I spoke too long.

Ditto. Yeah, I think with it with a topic like hell I mean it that there's actually been a lot of Scholarly books on hell. In fact, I was shocked if you you know. If you punch it into Amazon or something you get like 20 written every year.

But most of these are written in a way that just aren't aren't very understandable. They're not very simple, you know. So I feel like another scholarly book on hell just wouldn't wait really do much. There's lots of good stuff out there, but you can't understand it, you know.

So I think a heart behind it was really to blend You know both of our sort of gifts and produce something that is that is Hopefully very careful, you know that we've gone through and really done our homework.

But also very very simple and communicates in a very clear way. And so I just think it was it was great teaming up with Francis to do that. So.

Responding to False Teaching With Humility

Okay, so so you're you have the need right to write the book you get God's laying this on your conscience he's saying that this is what you need to step in and approach and One of the things is throughout church history that this isn't anything new right that godly people throughout From the time of Christ have seen false teaching in the church.

They've seen The people that they love that they shepherd the pastor Confronted with this false teaching and they've stepped up to to speak out and to correct it and to defend the biblical truth on something I really believe that's what you guys are doing.

That's obviously your heart is you want to approach this issue and make sure that that God's voice is being heard that it's not just False teaching that's coming in. Give us some insight. What do we do when when people are teaching when we are encountered by false teaching?

How do we respond? What what what do we say? What do we do and what's the attitude that we should approach it with?

Pressing. Yeah, I think our attitude is is huge. I think that as Mark said there There does need to be voices in the church that keep keep the church sound if you will, you know. But even that position can be kind of dangerous, right?

I mean it can be a very dangerous position to believe that you're sort of the you know. The the watchdog on orthodoxy and you have everything right and you're gonna correct everybody who has it wrong.

And there's people who do that and neither of us have that hard. So I think even going into this because we are sort of addressing an issue that's been raised. It's been really sobering really wanted to say look we don't want to tear down anybody.

We want to be humble. We want to check ourselves and make sure you know. We're not thinking that we're one up on anybody else. And so. And yet the same time there does need to be a need for. You know if there's things being taught that are false.

It does need to be addressed in a tone of humility. We don't want to attack a person or bring somebody down just to win an argument. But there are times throughout church history when when an issue does need to be addressed.

And so that's kind of our heart behind us. We're not we're not combative people. We don't just love, you know attacking everybody, but but sometimes there does need to be a debate and I think this is one of them.

Yeah, I mean you even see Paul confront Peter. Okay, your theology is off on this issue and you see that right in Scripture. You see the Scriptures that themselves the canonization of Scripture Was actually as a response to a heretic named Marcion, you know around the second Second Second century AD, you know comes out with this his own version of the Bible and and and so the church leaders get together good.

Oh, no, we are in agreement that this is what it says. And and so it's it's one of those situations where it does have to take place. Man, and I'm I'm usually I actually stay away from those things because I can see some of the Animosity and the anger and the arrogance and I and I struggle with those things myself.

And so I've kind of stayed out a lot of those battles. But then when it came to this one, I I just couldn't it was like no this is too heavy. I mean this will affect your life. They'll affect the way our children think and and not that this is new because these types of teachings have been around for a while.

But they've never been made popular. And that's that's was the concern and but then at the same time there's never been a popular book about health I mean who really wants to go. I want to you know, it's and yet yet I knew that.

Thinking about it. And as we studied the more I thought about the more. It got me serious about what I believed and about my life. And as far as the way to approach it, too I want you to understand that when after I read that book and I was concerned and I started to study and Find things that I just felt were were very dangerous in it.

I started praying for the guy I mean seriously praying for him. I wrote him a letter. We talked on the phone for a couple hours per hour and a half couple hours just talking through let me let me understand this.

You know, are you really saying this and you know and very good discussion and let him know man. I love you I pray for you. I pray for your wife. I pray for your family, you know. But I'm really concerned about some of the things you wrote because you know, and and you'll see it in the book.

Some things I just didn't think were fair and some things that I even thought were dangerous to the Christian community. So.

Hell as a Spiritual Wake-Up Call

So we're talking, you know the need for the book and everything else. But obviously this book is a lot more than just a response to to one, you know other book out there. You guys want to speak that how did how did it become more than just a response.

I.

Realized that There's certain things. I don't like to think about I don't know about you like I Don't like watching sad movies, you know. Like, you know, I remember my daughter took me to go see the boy in the striped pajamas and I thought oh, okay Some kid in striped pajamas.

I had no idea, you know, you get there and you realize oh That's about the Holocaust and you just you get sick you don't want to think about it. I don't like to a Lot of things in this world that I see that I don't like to think about that are real and are good for my soul and I know this has been a you know, like over the years when I come back from these trips and I want and I Tell you about people that are that are that are hungry starving to death people are trying to find clean water Lana's here, you know who works with kids that are traffic You know visiting from Thailand today, you know and and works with the kids that are sex-trafficked and I don't want to think about it but it's so right for my soul to think about those things because then it gets my mind off of some of the frivolous things of What kind of car do I want to buy and you know?

Should I you know fix this part of my house or that part and you're like no these are the things that matter and I Need to devote my life to it and that's what this study did for me. It wasn't even about Combating another book anymore.

It was about gosh as believers. We don't like to think about this Concept of hell and yet it's a very thing that caused Paul to have this unceasing Anguish in his heart, which we feel when we think about it.

And so even as you You don't get a copy of this book. There's me part of you that's like I don't want to think about that and yet It's so good for your soul. It gets your perspective, right? It gets you to stop complaining and whining about stupid things that aren't eternal that don't matter the recessions like whatever.

Seriously, it's like there's some serious things on the line. And so that's what we you know for me. It's like, you know, okay Now I'm getting it Lord. I see why you wanted me to write it for my own soul.

It's been good. And I think it's gonna be great for the body of Christ at large To focus on this topic and to force ourselves to think about it because Jesus does talk about it a lot yeah, and I had a.

Few I think it's a about a month ago I had a student from ABC coming to me and say, you know, thank you for doing this and he said for our generation. Hmm, I didn't really understood he meant I thought about I'm like, yeah I mean we are there was a huge generational shift going on.

We're moving into a more postmodern generation where where you know. To think seriously about something that is definitely true. I think is actually not in vogue anymore. You know people don't want to you know.

Think about something as serious as hell and that's very threatening and not palatable. And so people don't talk about it and then and if as Francis said if the Bible doesn't really talk about that much then let's drop It.

I would love to drop it. But if the Bible does then God knows something that we don't write. So, I think that I'm excited and excited me not be the best term but I'm I'm glad to have been a part of this.

I think specifically for that younger generation where I Think less and less people are really talking about things like eternal destinies and and you know, it's very. You know, I when I as I grew up, you know People would talk about hell a lot, but you don't see it really affecting the way they live and so I really hope that the the younger generation can can grab a hold of something like hell and Not just rant and rave about it or cram it down people's throats.

But first and foremost I I hope that they would let this very terrifying doctrine just totally transform the way they live.

Biblical Teaching on Hell

Well, let's let's get into just talking about what does the Bible say about hell. I think there's a perception at least in some circles that it's kind of a Leftover doctrine from the Middle Ages that we've played up and that we just kind of have this baggage that sticks with us.

So what does the Bible actually talk a lot about hell? Does it make a big deal about it? What does it say about it?

Yeah. That's true that during throughout church history There's been books written like, you know Dante's Inferno or or early on in the church there was different books written in it went into long elaborate descriptions about people hanging by their tongues and overboiling pitch and I do think that the church through history has has maybe if I can say overemphasized or Over-gruesomized.

Is that a word? Hell and and some people have reacted against that and said, oh no, Jesus didn't do that. Well, yes and no the Bible doesn't go into a lot of these elaborate descriptions but having gone back through and looking at the words of Jesus and Paul and other letters Jude 2nd Peter Revelation and and see no the Bible does actually Talk a lot about hell and one of the things I've seen that has come up in recent debates is people say well the word Hell isn't used that much therefore The Bible doesn't talk that much about hell and that's one thing that we really saw in the study.

It's like well, okay. Jesus uses the word hell 12 times. You know, it's a decent amount. But he also uses other descriptions of outer darkness eternal fire eternal punishment Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I mean he he clearly does talk about hell quite often more than just using the actual word hell so just doing a word study on hell isn't going to be sufficient and then there's There's Paul who he actually never uses the word hell.

And I've seen people say well, you know Paul the the main sort of writer in the New Testament never talked about hell. I'm like, well He didn't use the word hell, but he spoke of wrath. He spoke of destruction.

He even speaks in one passage in second Thessalonians. In fact, I don't know if you have your Bible second Thessalonians one that is Incredibly graphic he speaks of The second coming of Christ and he says God this is second Thessalonians 1 6 he says God will repay with affliction those who afflict you and To give relief to those who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus Christ shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels and flaming fire and then look at verse 8 dealing out Retribution to those who do not know God to those who don't obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord From the glory of its power.

Never mentions the word hell. It's not there, but he talks about affliction vengeance destruction, and he doesn't really shrink back. I mean he goes into and just lays into it, you know, so To say that Paul never mentions the word hell therefore he doesn't really believe in hell.

No, he does speak about wrath destruction and the eternal destinies of people all over the place and then other books in 2nd Peter and Jude and Revelation speak about hell a lot and so I think we kind of came full circle, you know, a lot of us were like man.

It'd be cool kind of cool if the Bible didn't talk that much about hell but then after studying it out, we're like no it it does seem to be a Pretty fundamental doctrine in Scripture.

Yeah, and it was it just was very sobering. I mean for those Six weeks or so where we're pretty intensely studying it There's almost a side of you that gets I don't know if depressed is the right word, but it's just like How can I just do my everyday thing knowing that this place exists?

I mean, I was kind of hoping to find something different. Because now that you know that it's there it's like how do I just How do I just? Go out and play tennis or what? You know, there's there's just that constant in your mind and I think that's that's something we struggle with as believers is okay.

What am I doing in light of this? But I was really surprised. I was surprised at some of the words that Jesus chose to use. They are not words I would have used they're very much stronger much harsher see in our culture we in our church culture will take a few of the Passages that we really like and we'll preach them over and over and over again.

And so it almost gets you thinking. Oh, yeah, Jesus only said these kind words. No, that's just all you hear people preach. No, just read through the Gospels for yourself. And as we did that again, it's like oh Why did you say it like that?

Why did you say it like that? You realize Wow, Jesus had some very very difficult things to say. I don't like to hear them. You won't enjoy hearing them, but they're truth and you just have to go. Okay.

That is what he said and and he is God and so I'm gonna go with it.

Another good thing to address here is not just that it talks about how a lot but let's ask the question Why why why does the Bible bring it up? Who is it warning about hell? Who's being threatened with hell so to speak and and and basically how do we relate that to us today, right?

It's one thing to look at the Pharisees in the Old Testament. But if we were to look around the contemporary scene who's being warned about hell and and why?

Warnings to Religious People and False Teachers

Go for it Francis. Okay. I mean it's it's weird because You know see when we talk about hell usually we think okay, let's let's go and tell everyone who's an unbeliever. Hey, you know, there's a hell down there and but.

And I'm not saying not not to do that. I'm just saying that when I see it in Scripture, it seems like Jesus's strongest words about hell were to religious people. People who would attend, you know nowadays it'd be to the people who attend church services.

It was almost like the the seriousness of it. And so that was that was kind of surprising to me. It seemed to address he seemed to really Address the Saints. Making sure that they got it and understood it.

And it was a warning to those who saw themselves as safe. Because they were a part of a religious organization somehow and they had some sort of religious background. And it seemed like those are the ones he warned me one of the most.

Yeah, that's that was probably the most sobering thing in the study is is I'm thinking of like Jude and second Peter. They're they're probably the most elaborate descriptions of hell in those passages I mean just over and over and over talking about the wrath of God wrath of God and Helen.

But they're warning false teachers. They're warning people who are standing up with a Bible and teaching people the Word of God and saying you better watch yourself. You may end up in hell. And so I'm sitting there saying well, I teach the Bible I don't think I'm false.

But did the false teacher say they're false? They you know have a sign saying hey, I'm a false teacher come listen to me I mean, that's the the false teachers. They think they're true. I think I'm true.

So I'm reading these passages saying well gosh, I need to watch what I'm doing. James though James mentions hell one time and he warns people who are misusing their tongue Backbiting other believers or speaking things falsely, you know that passage in James 3 1, you know Beware of being a teacher because you'll incur a stricter judgment.

It's a few verses later when James talks about the tongue being you know Able to set the fire the whole forest fire on on the whole fire Forest on fire. Thank you. And then um, I Honestly think the the scariest passage in the entire Bible is Matthew 7 Where Jesus says many will say to me on that day Lord Lord, I mean can't can you imagine I'm Most of you probably confess Christ and we're certain people here just checking things out or whatever.

Can you imagine being a Christ confessor. Getting to on Judgment Day. I'm thinking great, you know, you know, which cloud is mine, you know, and Jesus Jesus says Many there's many who will say Lord Lord Jesus your Lord your Lord, you know, where do I go?

You know, and he's like I don't who are you? You know, I got my book of life here and I've gotten through the S's, you know. And I don't I don't see sprinkle here, you know, I mean there's can you imagine how terrifying that would be?

But that's kind of the tone of hell in the in the New Testament is he's constantly Warning religious people and that's that's frightening. It wasn't I don't think the doctrine of hell while it is unbelievers who will be in hell I think Reflecting on that doctrine was really designed to shake people up who think that their religiosity is gonna help them escape.

You know, I I just thought about this when you're saying that Who do you think feared God more like people in America this day and age or the people? 2 ,000 years ago. You know who had a greater fear and respect and all of God maybe almost terrified.

You know I would guess the people back then based upon what I read and study go home and they had much higher Fear of the Lord and yet those are the people to whom Jesus makes some of these statements about fearing him more like like in a Matthew 10 verse 28 don't fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul rather Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It's interesting to me that we live in a culture that doesn't fear God and yet we're telling people Oh don't preach about the fear of the Lord and I'm saying man That's crazy because back then they feared the Lord more and Jesus chose to preach fear even more to them.

You would have think it would have been the opposite. And so it's just this whole I Don't know. I don't even know what the question was. I just thought of that.

You're it's preaching hell to people who don't fear God. Yeah, that's what the warnings are for is people to fear God more. It was a good answer. I knew it was an answer at some point. That was good. Okay.

Whether Faith Must Produce Fruit

Well, I want to make sure we take some time for the. Presumably you haven't just been texting your friends. You've been texting in questions. So oh Man someone's got a kid out of control. I Don't think that's a real question that we need to.

Okay, here we go. All right. This seems like a are these the individual? Let's see if you don't produce fruit. Do you go to hell? Should we take this one at a time? Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about that.

If you don't produce fruit, do you go to hell? It's kind of the same thing. Actually, is it just enough to accept Jesus as your Lord? What about someone living in constant sin? It is the same thing. Okay, this is good.

Thank you.

This is good, this is a good question because Okay, for example When I when I called Rob on the phone to talk about his book and go man It seems like this what you're saying and he was kind of like well he goes all I'm saying is it could it be possible.

Could it be is there any room for the possibility? that you know God's gonna surprise us with his grace as he has in other times in history and. Suddenly everyone goes, you know, and I thought Yeah there I guess that could be a possibility.

And he goes that's all I'm saying but then when I read the book I'm going no that's not what you're saying. You're ridiculing anyone that would would would believe that that God would you know. Have someone suffer for all of eternity and so it's not just leaving a little bit of room, you know.

Yeah, there's a slight possibility and and the reason why I bring that up is when I look at this I mean you guys know what I taught here for four years is Basically what I see in this book where the answer to that is Gosh, everything I see in this book is that if you really are a believer your life will change.